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View Full Version : T/F: Dirk's reputation will never recover unless he wins a title



picc84
07-05-2007, 03:50 AM
In the next few years.

True or false.

The Hurricane
07-05-2007, 03:51 AM
False

Chrono90
07-05-2007, 03:53 AM
i dont know about title, but i say great performances durin playoffs will help

jackjohnson
07-05-2007, 03:55 AM
True, but reputation is perception and perception does not equal the truth

dudeguykid
07-05-2007, 03:57 AM
false he will just need to keep leading the team de....nevermind true. Even if he keeps getting to the 2nd round or wcf, if he doesnt win people will still point at those 2 seasons where he had arguably the best team in the leauge and failed to get it done.

chains5000
07-05-2007, 04:00 AM
False.
What if he gets another MVP while leading his team deep in the playoffs only to lose to a better team while playing well?

wally_world
07-05-2007, 04:21 AM
true!

same case for everyone... no matter how good you are... you've NEVER won a ring blah blah blah... you'll never be in the top caliber unless you have a ring... same case for Karl Malone and John Stockton...

EricForman
07-05-2007, 04:23 AM
true, because people are unfairly harsh to him.

Dirk has had more playoff success than Iverson, KG, tmac, Vince, Lebron and 95% of other "#1 options" out there.

This year is actually the only year he lost to a team he "should have beaten". Even the Heat last year... people forget that team WAS STACKED. Just because they underacheived in the regular seeason and got a poor record doesn't mean nothing... people were picking them to come out of the East before the season.

The years before, Dirk's team either lost to a team with more talent (suns) or a team with a superior superstar (spurs). He's always torched the inferior teams he should be torching-- Portland, Utah, Minnesota (torched KG in 03), he has had two WCF runs and been the #1 guy on multiple 60 win teams. But now people wanna take all that away because of this year. While guys like Iverson never seem to get any flack because he's a popular dude. (cue the guys saying "but he led his team to the finals!"....)

snipes12
07-05-2007, 04:30 AM
dont worry he'l get the chip next season

FabCasablancas
07-05-2007, 05:26 AM
Cuban is the one who should have the horrible repuation.. he's the one hindering Dirk.. the guys a nutcase.. how many hall of famers can you kick off your team?

Silent Mav
07-05-2007, 09:36 AM
After the playoffs it was obvious Dirk and the Mavs were going to catch a lot of grief this off season. And probably all of the coming season until they get the chance to change it in the playoffs. With another bad postseason, it could be true. But for now I'll say false because things settle down with time.

TMacsOneGoodEye
07-05-2007, 09:40 AM
True.

He can have a million 67 win seasons, but they mean absolutely nothing if he doesn't win a title.

Right now what is Dirk remembered for? His choke against Miami and GS.

Fluffy Bird
07-05-2007, 09:41 AM
So his great clutch play in game seven against a 'dynastic' team (San Antonio) last year goes out the window and has no bearing on how we judge him, nor does being the MVP leader of a sixty-seven win team.

Really effin fair adjudicators we have around here. Does GP's first round loss to the Nuggets ever get mentioned when his career is assessed? Rarely. Why the grease job on the German?

The Mavericks ran into a buzzsaw on a roll this playoffs, if people around here are di(kish enough to let that be the barometer of Dirk's entire career then they are just bitter ******.

Quit hating, you got what you wanted (an early exit on a poor performance) but that doesn't represent the man's entire career.

Fluffy Bird
07-05-2007, 09:42 AM
this site has h-ater as a bad word???

what kind of ****in garbage is that?

Rockets(T-mac)
07-05-2007, 09:55 AM
No he will get it back when he plays great through out the playoffs and doesn't choke just gets beat by a better team. If he can lose without choking then I can see people being less harsh on him. If he wins a ring then people forget most of his mistakes from the past.

mlh1981
07-05-2007, 09:55 AM
He is at the point in his career where nothing he achieves during the regular season will enhance his legacy. It's all about the playoffs. Some people will say he choked vs. Golden State, other will say it's because Don Nelson knows him inside and out and if Dallas had been matched up against someone else, they would've gotten out of the first round. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

imjustlikemusiq
07-05-2007, 09:55 AM
True

dejordan
07-05-2007, 10:09 AM
true, because people are unfairly harsh to him.

Dirk has had more playoff success than Iverson, KG, tmac, Vince, Lebron and 95% of other "#1 options" out there.

This year is actually the only year he lost to a team he "should have beaten". Even the Heat last year... people forget that team WAS STACKED. Just because they underacheived in the regular seeason and got a poor record doesn't mean nothing... people were picking them to come out of the East before the season.

The years before, Dirk's team either lost to a team with more talent (suns) or a team with a superior superstar (spurs). He's always torched the inferior teams he should be torching-- Portland, Utah, Minnesota (torched KG in 03), he has had two WCF runs and been the #1 guy on multiple 60 win teams. But now people wanna take all that away because of this year. While guys like Iverson never seem to get any flack because he's a popular dude. (cue the guys saying "but he led his team to the finals!"....)
this is a good point. i think the serious flack from the 06 finals was the way they lost rather than the fact that they lost, but you're right. it's not like they got schooled by some pushovers.

i wouldn't say that iverson and garnett get no flack, kg in particular gets quite a bit of choker hate, but it is hard to deny that neither of them has consistantly played with the talent or had teams as healthy as dirk has, so there may be some extenuating circumstances regarding why one guy seems to be held to a higher standard.

it is a little bizarre how harshly he's being judged. maybe it's because he has such vocal fans? you see the same kind of thing happen to kobe. when you get a ton of praise for your great regular season, you are likely to get kicked pretty hard if you don't have a great post season as well. right or wrong.

Rasheed1
07-05-2007, 10:11 AM
True...


But now people wanna take all that away because of this year. While guys like Iverson never seem to get any flack because he's a popular dude. (cue the guys saying "but he led his team to the finals!"....)

Iverson's finals trip was different from Dirk because the Mavs were the favorites and got upset... People had brooms out in LA for Game 1 of the 2001 finals, so the fact that 6ers werent even expected to win a game makes the two different...

cant give AI flack for losing to a dynasty with a team that people say shouldnt have even been there...Plus AI numbers were on Wade's level during that finals

bottomline: AI didnt choke

TMacsOneGoodEye
07-05-2007, 10:13 AM
AI and Dirk are also different in the sense that Dirk is better than AI.

But what AI lacks in size & skill, he makes up for in will.

Dirk on the other hand, has all the skill in the world, but he's a mental idiot who has a clock that eventually strikes midnight in the post-season.

Rockets(T-mac)
07-05-2007, 10:22 AM
True...



Iverson's finals trip was different from Dirk because the Mavs were the favorites and got upset... People had brooms out in LA for Game 1 of the 2001 finals, so the fact that 6ers werent even expected to win a game makes the two different...

cant give AI flack for losing to a dynasty with a team that people say shouldnt have even been there...Plus AI numbers were on Wade's level during that finals

bottomline: AI didnt choke
Great post. You can't come pair AI and Dirk because AI clearly didn't choke he was facing a team that very little teams in the NBA now could even dream of beating. For then go against everyone and win a game was amazing and better than losing a 2-0 nothing leading in the finals like Dirk. Cue Primetime to come and say that the Mavs weren't aloud to play defense that series.

Rasheed1
07-05-2007, 10:23 AM
I think Dirk is still getting adjusted to the concept of being "the man" in America..

I think some foreign guys have trouble with all the pressure that is put on one guy. Dirk happens to be that one guy on his team and he looks uncomfortable being the main focus..

I think he needs help too...He needs a low post presence on the team. I dont think he'll ever dominate down low like 7 footers should.

EricForman
07-05-2007, 11:48 AM
True...



Iverson's finals trip was different from Dirk because the Mavs were the favorites and got upset... People had brooms out in LA for Game 1 of the 2001 finals, so the fact that 6ers werent even expected to win a game makes the two different...

cant give AI flack for losing to a dynasty with a team that people say shouldnt have even been there...Plus AI numbers were on Wade's level during that finals

bottomline: AI didnt choke


First, I didn't think the Mavs were the "favorites". The Heat underacheieved in the regular season. You look at that lineup on paper they should have been a top team in the league. ZO AS A BACKUP CENTER?

Second, you misunderstood me, in no way am I saying Iverson should get flack because he lost in the finals, I appreciate that 01 run as much as anyone. But people bash Dirk so much and label him a choker and a failure, when guys like Tmac, Iverson and KG would kill to have his playoff runs. Iverson's had ONE playoff run his entire freaking career, that's what I mean by no one gives him any flack. True he didn't have much help before, but hey if he don't start making some noise in Denver, if he's still going out in the first round, no more excuses.

EricForman
07-05-2007, 11:52 AM
Great post. You can't come pair AI and Dirk because AI clearly didn't choke he was facing a team that very little teams in the NBA now could even dream of beating. For then go against everyone and win a game was amazing and better than losing a 2-0 nothing leading in the finals like Dirk. Cue Primetime to come and say that the Mavs weren't aloud to play defense that series.


Damn, everyone misunderstood my post and took it as an Iverson bash or something....

No need to tell me how amazing Iverson's 2001 run was, I MADE this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=2-H4IXFqPkM) video myself. Took me 7 hours, ripped the footage off my tape, edited, downloaded Rocky soundtrack just to put the music, etc.

It's not hating on Iverson, it's me giving Dirk props because he's had more post season success than any other #1 option currently playing today besides Wade, Duncan, Shaq. THAT'S IT.

And guys like Iverson, Vince, Tmac would kill to have half of Dirk's playoff success. Ask them how it feels to play in like, 5-8 playoffs games every year for most of their careers... oops, scratch that, Tmac's never even played more than 7 per year. HAha

Doge
07-05-2007, 11:56 AM
True

Dirk must shed the too soft label and only a Championship will do it.

Doge
07-05-2007, 12:08 PM
Just saw AI - Dirk subplot...

But the Mavs DID get schooled by a bunch of pushovers. We're still talking about the Least here. And we are not really talking about the Heat but Wade. The only way you let one person beat you is to melt. Losing one game like that (think L James in the year's ECF) is one thing, but a series! Uh, no. Dirk melted.

AI tangent: AI made it to the Finals because, as Bill Simmons says over and over, 1.5 has-been/overrated All-Stars and 10 guys off the street old get hot enough to make it to the Finals thru the ECF. AI is the most overrated player in the game now. I love it when Holligner thinks the Nuggets will come out of the West next year. Uh, no. Best case scenario for Nuggets is to lose in WCF. I'm waiting for them to trade Camby, who was their best player in terms of impact and winning. Then they're a 7 seed...

Back to Dirk... Since the merger the Finals has seen a few upsets. They are rare in a 7-game series but they do happen. The upsets are: Shaq's first Finals appearance, they lost to the Rockets because the Magic decided they could party instead of actually prepare. Shaq and Kobe's last finals run when the Pistons won 4-1. Total upset, never should have happened. But that last time the Lakers were putting the fun in dysfunctional and just self-combusted. That brings us to the Heats over Mavs upset. And it was an upset. No way the Mavs should have lost more than 1 game in that series. And this was (still is) the era of the Least. Anyway, Dirk will never win a title as #1 option, never.

BballFan422
07-05-2007, 12:22 PM
False.

Malone is considered one of the top PFs in the history of the NBA and he choked on the big stage. Barkley never won a title either.

I think it's more a matter of people over-stating who Dirk is (or any star for that matter) and then being let down because he is fallible.

mavsfan4zindagi
07-05-2007, 12:32 PM
True.

He can have a million 67 win seasons, but they mean absolutely nothing if he doesn't win a title.

Right now what is Dirk remembered for? His choke against Miami and GS.

Co-sign.

He'll only be remembered for his choke jobs if he doesn't win a title before his career ends.

LakerWarrior12
07-05-2007, 12:35 PM
False.

Malone is considered one of the top PFs in the history of the NBA and he choked on the big stage. Barkley never won a title either.
I think it's more a matter of people over-stating who Dirk is (or any star for that matter) and then being let down because he is fallible.


That is irrevlant. Because Barkley and Malone's teams were never favored to win a championship against MJ's superior teams.



Dirk lost to an underdog team, and the Mavericks were favored to win the Finals. But in the end it was the Heat.

Take Your Lumps
07-05-2007, 12:54 PM
this site has h-ater as a bad word???

what kind of ****in garbage is that?

Try: hateration

Kobe_6/8
10-18-2015, 09:22 AM
True. It's surprising to see how many people here doubted Dirk would ever win a ring.

Thesmallmamba
10-18-2015, 11:38 AM
Similar to Duncan, Dirk is another player whos "nice guy, humble" persona has blinded us from his horrific chokes and failures throughout the years.

ShawkFactory
10-18-2015, 11:51 AM
Similar to Duncan, Dirk is another player whos "nice guy, humble" persona has blinded us from his horrific chokes and failures throughout the years.
Not blinded. Just forgiven because everybody chokes sometimes.

Nobody forgives Lebron and Kobe because they're cocky/assholes

Thesmallmamba
10-18-2015, 11:54 AM
Not blinded. Just forgiven because everybody chokes sometimes.

Nobody forgives Lebron and Kobe because they're cocky/assholes

Please dont put LeBron in the same sentence as Kobe in terms of "cockiness"


Kobe has the most missed shots in NBA history, and still walks around like he should be shooting 30 times a game at 37 years old :facepalm

HylianNightmare
10-18-2015, 01:11 PM
So many good posters gone

ArbitraryWater
10-18-2015, 01:19 PM
Similar to Duncan, Dirk is another player whos "nice guy, humble" persona has blinded us from his horrific chokes and failures throughout the years.

Not really, and that wasn't the meaning of the thread either :oldlol:

Dirk has one of the best good/bad series ratios in playoff history... even in 2007 just about everything that went wrong went wrong.

Dirk hasn't played a bad series since 2007 until his 2014 first round... where he was just, okay. Thats amazing. Especially considering how impressive he was in 2001, 2002, 2005, and at what all time level he played at in 2003 and 2006.

LBJFTW
10-18-2015, 01:27 PM
True. It's surprising to see how many people here doubted Dirk would ever win a ring.

Not as surprising as seeing 8 year old threads get bumped. :facepalm

!@#$%Vectors!@#
10-18-2015, 01:29 PM
:hammerhead: :hammerhead:

DaOldLion
10-18-2015, 01:48 PM
Not really, and that wasn't the meaning of the thread either :oldlol:

Dirk has one of the best good/bad series ratios in playoff history... even in 2007 just about everything that went wrong went wrong.

Dirk hasn't played a bad series since 2007 until his 2014 first round... where he was just, okay. Thats amazing. Especially considering how impressive he was in 2001, 2002, 2005, and at what all time level he played at in 2003 and 2006.

well way to prove his point for him..

those runs were not anything impressive, since when is 23ppg on 40% for an entire playoff run impressive? or 21ppg on 35% for an entire series?

ArbitraryWater
10-18-2015, 02:20 PM
well way to prove his point for him..

those runs were not anything impressive, since when is 23ppg on 40% for an entire playoff run impressive? or 21ppg on 35% for an entire series?

Dirk was injured in 2001, it was also his 3rd year in the league, and he still lit up the Spurs for 46/18 in the elimination game, and had 30+ in just about any game he was healthy in :oldlol:

He did 28/13 on 45% in 2002 :oldlol: 27/12 on 45% in 2004 while injured... so again, now my post isn't just directed at him, but also you, go for it :cheers:

DaOldLion
10-18-2015, 02:51 PM
Dirk was injured in 2001, it was also his 3rd year in the league, and he still lit up the Spurs for 46/18 in the elimination game, and had 30+ in just about any game he was healthy in :oldlol:

He did 28/13 on 45% in 2002 :oldlol: 27/12 on 45% in 2004 while injured... so again, now my post isn't just directed at him, but also you, go for it :cheers:

they lost that game by 20 points.. he wasn't "impressive" (your claim) in the 01 playoffs.. shooting 42% and only grabbing 8 rebounds is not impressive for a 7 footer, especially when he's only averaging 23 ppg

in 02 he shot 40% against the Kings, which includes game 4 where the Mavs lost by only 2 points while Dirk shot 32%.. he had plenty of help that series (Finley putting up 25/6 on 45%, Nash with 19/9 on 46%) again.. not that impressive


you didn't mention 04 in your original post, you mentioned 05, which wasn't impressive at all.. in 05 he was laughably bad in the first round, shot 35% for the series and in game 7 put up 14 points on 36%.. and his team still won by like 40 so he had plenty of help

these type of things get swept under the rug with Dirk, while other guys get crucified for stuff like that

derb2k2
10-18-2015, 03:00 PM
dat thread resurrection doe!

Dirk is a champion now so I gotta give my respects

ArbitraryWater
10-18-2015, 04:12 PM
they lost that game by 20 points.. he wasn't "impressive" (your claim) in the 01 playoffs.. shooting 42% and only grabbing 8 rebounds is not impressive for a 7 footer, especially when he's only averaging 23 ppg

in 02 he shot 40% against the Kings, which includes game 4 where the Mavs lost by only 2 points while Dirk shot 32%.. he had plenty of help that series (Finley putting up 25/6 on 45%, Nash with 19/9 on 46%) again.. not that impressive


you didn't mention 04 in your original post, you mentioned 05, which wasn't impressive at all.. in 05 he was laughably bad in the first round, shot 35% for the series and in game 7 put up 14 points on 36%.. and his team still won by like 40 so he had plenty of help

these type of things get swept under the rug with Dirk, while other guys get crucified for stuff like that

You're literally picking out single games... do you even know they lost that 2001 game because Finley shot 1 of 17? And which other guys get crucified? for what? Kobe and Bron get crucified.. no one else, they're the 2 'new' ones experiencing this social media treatment, Duncan doesn't, Shaq was too good...

Dirk has a top 7 all time good/bad playoff run ratio... 2005, 2007, there are no other underwhelming runs... JUST THAT GOOD :bowdown:

StephHamann
10-18-2015, 04:27 PM
http://lubbockonline.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/10751150.jpg

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20130117/1000/proof_that_white_people_cant_dance_11.gif

DaOldLion
10-18-2015, 04:30 PM
You're literally picking out single games... do you even know they lost that 2001 game because Finley shot 1 of 17? And which other guys get crucified? for what? Kobe and Bron get crucified.. no one else, they're the 2 'new' ones experiencing this social media treatment, Duncan doesn't, Shaq was too good...

Dirk has a top 7 all time good/bad playoff run ratio... 2005, 2007, there are no other underwhelming runs... JUST THAT GOOD :bowdown:

7 first round exits :eek: :eek:

Goro
10-18-2015, 09:08 PM
Well, he got it. :applause:

Cold soul
10-18-2015, 09:26 PM
Dirk the man huge fan of his. I will always remember his legendary 2011 postseason run.

nathanjizzle
10-18-2015, 11:06 PM
dirk isnt that memorable.

Locked_Up_Tonight
10-18-2015, 11:30 PM
dirk isnt that memorable.

And yet, his name is brought up more on draft sites and in the draft than any other player besides Jordan.

Besides Kobe and LeBron he will be remembered more than any other player in this era. And Kobe's is debatable because of the Jordan shadow.

IllegalD
10-19-2015, 12:04 AM
And yet, his name is brought up more on draft sites and in the draft than any other player besides Jordan.

Besides Kobe and LeBron he will be remembered more than any other player in this era. And Kobe's is debatable because of the Jordan shadow.

:kobe:

F*ck outta here. I had no idea there was such a thing as Dirk Stanleys. I thought DMAVS was the only one and even he isn't retarded enough to say some sh*t like that. :roll:

What about Dirk living under Bird's shadow? :confusedshrug:

Kobe, LeBron, Duncan, Shaq, KG, and maybe even Iverson will be remembered more than Dirk. (from his era) :cheers:

Kobe will be remembered WAY more than Dirk historically and it's not even close, bro. You're in denial.

Can you name ONE iconic Dirk moment that will be replayed/remembered over and over again for eternity like Kobe's Alleyoop to Shaq, or 81 points. Or LeBron's Takeover vs the Pistons or his Scowl game?

(Yes, I'm well aware he has a Finals game winner. I don't need to be lectured by some Dirk Stanley about Finals moments, because I'm all about pumping out underrated moments like that. But lets face it, the way it goes (fair or not), that moment won't be replayed or remembered on the same level as Kobe's/LeBron's.)

moaz
10-19-2015, 09:57 AM
:kobe:

Can you name ONE iconic Dirk moment that will be replayed/remembered over and over again for eternity

I'll give you this one.

Dirk didn't have a rape case

nathanjizzle
10-19-2015, 10:00 AM
And yet, his name is brought up more on draft sites and in the draft than any other player besides Jordan.

Besides Kobe and LeBron he will be remembered more than any other player in this era. And Kobe's is debatable because of the Jordan shadow.

in the last 5 years, ive legit only seen maybe 10 dirk threads.

JohnnySic
10-19-2015, 10:06 AM
Before he won his title, people had Dirk as a choker and underachiever. Then he had that one God-like run and now people conveniently forget the chokes and act like he can do no wrong. Life is just funny that way.

DMAVS41
10-19-2015, 01:35 PM
Before he won his title, people had Dirk as a choker and underachiever. Then he had that one God-like run and now people conveniently forget the chokes and act like he can do no wrong. Life is just funny that way.

Could you please list the years Dirk and the Mavs underachieved...

The reason that people have switched is because of 2 things:

1. Like you said...Dirk won

2. There was never a history of underachieving or choking to begin with

DavisIsMyUniBro
10-19-2015, 01:38 PM
06 dirk and 11 dirk are pretty much the...

IllegalD
10-19-2015, 01:55 PM
Could you please list the years Dirk and the Mavs underachieved...

The reason that people have switched is because of 2 things:

1. Like you said...Dirk won

2. There was never a history of underachieving or choking to begin with

- 2004: Dirk fails to even make it past the 1st round with a STACKED SUPERTEAM of: Dirk, Nash, Finley, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Josh Howard (6 All-star level players, 2 HOFs [possibly 3, because Jamison is borderline], THREE 20 and 10 Allstar PFs).

- 2006: Up 13, and 6 minutes away from from being up a commanding 3-0, the Mavericks completely collapse, capped off by Dirk missing a game-tying FT with 3.4 seconds left: https://youtu.be/QnCc5PUj5F0?t=220 Dirk ends up getting shut down and frustrated throughout the series by midgets like James Posey and Udonis Haslem (his kryptonite)

- 2007: Dirk wins regular season MVP and leads his Mavericks to a 67-win campaign. Only to become the first #1 seed to lose to a #8 seed in a Best of 7 series. Dirk averages 5 points less than the regular season and shoots just 38%, again shut down by a smaller defender in Stephen Jackson.

Thesmallmamba
10-19-2015, 02:00 PM
Could you please list the years Dirk and the Mavs underachieved...

The reason that people have switched is because of 2 things:

1. Like you said...Dirk won

2. There was never a history of underachieving or choking to begin with

2007 playoffs

Cold soul
10-19-2015, 02:06 PM
2007 playoffs


Yeah 07 was really bad choke by Dirk.

DMAVS41
10-19-2015, 02:17 PM
- 2004: Dirk fails to even make it past the 1st round with a STACKED SUPERTEAM of: Dirk, Nash, Finley, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Josh Howard (6 All-star level players, 2 HOFs [possibly 3, because Jamison is borderline], THREE 20 and 10 Allstar PFs).

- 2006: Up 13, and 6 minutes away from from being up a commanding 3-0, the Mavericks completely collapse, capped off by Dirk missing a game-tying FT with 3.4 seconds left: https://youtu.be/QnCc5PUj5F0?t=220 Dirk ends up getting shut down and frustrated throughout the series by midgets like James Posey and Udonis Haslem (his kryptonite)

- 2007: Dirk wins regular season MVP and leads his Mavericks to a 67-win campaign. Only to become the first #1 seed to lose to a #8 seed in a Best of 7 series. Dirk averages 5 points less than the regular season and shoots just 38%, again shut down by a smaller defender in Stephen Jackson.


04? You simply don't know anything about basketball if you thought that was a super team. Nash was hurt and Finley started to break down...and we didn't have a center. Since when is an injured Nash and Finley with Jamison and Walker a super team? It was a horribly flawed team that suffered injuries. Gotta love someone listing Jamison and Walker like they are assets on a team like that. And your ignorance is shown by listing Josh Howard. He was borderline irrelevant for that Mavs team in 04. You might as well have listed Najera. Marquis Daniels was much better and played a much bigger role on that team in the playoffs. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

Also, you are just factually wrong here. The Mavs weren't favorites in round 1. They were underdogs. Dirk went for 27/12 on 56% TS....I don't see how that is choking/underachieving. Playing very well on an underdog team that loses is actually the opposite of choking/underachieving...it's not logically possible.

06? The finals was bad, but that isn't underachieving because the Mavs advanced farther than they were supposed to. The Spurs were favored over the Mavs in round 2. You can't advance farther than expected and then say a team underachieved. Logic still has to work even when you are hating.

07? Absolutely.


But see? You come up with 3 examples? LOL...I can give you 7 for Bird in the same way. A handful for Magic. A couple for MJ. A handful for Kobe. Many for Shaq....a handful for Lebron. On and on and on.....

You come up with 3...one is just factually wrong, one doesn't make logical sense...and one is accurate.

That isn't a history of anything other than playing basketball in the playoffs. Especially when there are many other things to the positive. Like upsetting the Jazz. Upsetting the Spurs. Routinely dominating deciding games of series (game 7's and game 5's(back in the day))....

That isn't a history...sorry.

IllegalD
10-19-2015, 02:25 PM
04? You simply don't know anything about basketball if you thought that was a super team. Nash was hurt and Finley started to break down...and we didn't have a center. Since when is an injured Nash and Finley with Jamison and Walker a super team? It was a horribly flawed team that suffered injuries. Gotta love someone listing Jamison and Walker like they are assets on a team like that.

Also, you are just factually wrong here. The Mavs weren't favorites in round 1. They were underdogs. Dirk went for 27/12 on 56% TS....I don't see how that is choking/underachieving. Playing very well on an underdog team that loses is actually the opposite of choking/underachieving...it's not logically possible.

06? The finals was bad, but that isn't underachieving because the Mavs advanced farther than they were supposed to. The Spurs were favored over the Mavs in round 2. You can't advance farther than expected and then say a team underachieved. Logic still has to work even when you are hating.

07? Absolutely.


But see? You come up with 3 examples? LOL...I can give you 7 for Bird in the same way. A handful for Magic. A couple for MJ. A handful for Kobe. Many for Shaq....a handful for Lebron. On and on and on.....

You come up with 3...one is just factually wrong, one doesn't make logical sense...and one is accurate.

That isn't a history of anything other than playing basketball in the playoffs. Especially when there are many other things to the positive. Like upsetting the Jazz. Upsetting the Spurs. Routinely dominating deciding games of series (game 7's and game 5's(back in the day))....

That isn't a history...sorry.

Except all the guys you mentioned have multiple rings. That's why no one cares about their playoff shortcomings.

And :roll: you making excuses for the 2004 Mavs when you're one of the first to bring up old-ass Malone, Payton,, hurt Nash/Hoawrd, and Bynum (who didn't even play a large role in the chip seasons) as evidence of "stacked help" that Kobe's had. :lol

DMAVS41
10-19-2015, 02:31 PM
Except all the guys you mentioned have multiple rings. That's why no one cares about their playoff shortcomings.

And :roll: you making excuses for the 2004 Mavs when you're one of the first to bring up old-ass Malone, Payton,, hurt Nash/Hoawrd, and Bynum (who didn't even play a large role in the chip seasons) as evidence of "stacked help" that Kobe's had. :lol

Arguing multiple rings is a silly argument as the circumstances for Bird and Shaq and most of the players I listed were far better than Dirk for winning titles.

But even more...I'm not claiming Dirk is as good as Bird or Shaq.

I'm pointing out that playing 15 plus years in the NBA is going to result in some great moments and some awful moments.

You guys are arguing that Dirk has had more than the average amount of poor moments. Which is just factually false.

And you have to reach to a horrendous 04 roster that was hurt and not even favored with Dirk playing great as underachieving...and reach to a year the Mavs weren't even supposed to get out of the 2nd round...yet made the finals...as underachieving.

Just two huge reaches, but even if they were underachieving...it would be in the normal range for a player playing 15 plus years in the league.

IllegalD
10-19-2015, 02:35 PM
Arguing multiple rings is a silly argument as the circumstances for Bird and Shaq and most of the players I listed were far better than Dirk for winning titles.

But even more...I'm not claiming Dirk is as good as Bird or Shaq.

I'm pointing out that playing 15 plus years in the NBA is going to result in some great moments and some awful moments.

You guys are arguing that Dirk has had more than the average amount of poor moments. Which is just factually false.

And you have to reach to a horrendous 04 roster that was hurt and not even favored with Dirk playing great as underachieving...and reach to a year the Mavs weren't even supposed to get out of the 2nd round...yet made the finals...as underachieving.

Just two huge reaches, but even if they were underachieving...it would be in the normal range for a player playing 15 plus years in the league.

Almost as big a reach as you saying that Dirk is the 4th best player of all time.

DMAVS41
10-19-2015, 02:39 PM
Almost as big a reach as you saying that Dirk is the 4th best player of all time.

I have never said that.

Do you really think lying gets you anywhere?

Thesmallmamba
10-19-2015, 02:39 PM
Almost as big a reach as you saying that Dirk is the 4th best player of all time.

He was talking about Duncan

Learn to read

IllegalD
10-19-2015, 02:46 PM
He was talking about Duncan

Learn to read

Damn bro. I wasn't even talking to you.

Good to know that I have groupies on this board that follow me around, even though I rarely post as much as guys like Dubeta, Fudge, and JT123.

The rent is most definitely free. :banana: :cheers:

*CRACKS WHIP* Dance monkey, DANCE!!!

kenny817
10-19-2015, 09:18 PM
false he will just need to keep leading the team de....nevermind true. Even if he keeps getting to the 2nd round or wcf, if he doesnt win people will still point at those 2 seasons where he had arguably the best team in the leauge and failed to get it done.

LOL...Dirk has never had "the best team in the league"

Dirk was carrying scrubs

DMAVS41
10-19-2015, 09:27 PM
LOL...Dirk has never had "the best team in the league"

Dirk was carrying scrubs

I think you could make a case that the 03 Mavs had the most talent in the league. That team has become more and more forgotten over time, but they were a monster of a team. They were the best offense in the league iirc and they played surprisingly solid defense given their roster.

I still think they would have won if Dirk doesn't get hurt, but who knows.

Outside of that year though...I fully agree that Dirk never had the most help in the league. Far from it actually.

An interesting stat...in Dirk's entire prime...only 1 year did the Mavs have a positive scoring differential without him on the court. It was in 06 and the Mavs were +.2 points per 100 without Dirk...

Just for fun, anyone can go compare that to the actual best teams. You'll see far better help statistically.

nathanjizzle
10-19-2015, 09:54 PM
dirks teams have been knocked out of the first round in 7 of 14 appearances. how does that even happen. I would say kevin garnett has had a better legacy than dirk.

DMAVS41
10-19-2015, 10:03 PM
dirks teams have been knocked out of the first round in 7 of 14 appearances. how does that even happen. I would say kevin garnett has had a better legacy than dirk.

it happens by being hugely upset once and having the worse team a majority of the time. it's really not complicated:

01 - underdog...upset jazz
02 - slight favorite...destroyed KG's Wolves in embarrassing fashion
03 - clear favorites...beat blazers
04 - slight underdog....lost to kings
05 - favorites...beat rockets
06 - clear favorites...swept grizzlies
07 - big favorites...upset by Warriors with Dirk playing terribly
08 - underdogs...lost to Hornets
09 - slight underdogs...beat spurs
10 - slight favorites...lost to Spurs
11 - slight favorites...beat Blazers
12 - clear underdogs...lost to Thunder
14 - clear underdogs...lost to Spurs
15 - clear underdogs...lost to Rockets

You are looking at 2 losses as favorites and one of them was to a Spurs team that was at worst even to be honest. Dirk was amazing in that series though...so kind of hard to blame him.

Wade's Rings
10-19-2015, 10:37 PM
I think you could make a case that the 03 Mavs had the most talent in the league. That team has become more and more forgotten over time, but they were a monster of a team. They were the best offense in the league iirc and they played surprisingly solid defense given their roster.

I still think they would have won if Dirk doesn't get hurt, but who knows.

Outside of that year though...I fully agree that Dirk never had the most help in the league. Far from it actually.

An interesting stat...in Dirk's entire prime...only 1 year did the Mavs have a positive scoring differential without him on the court. It was in 06 and the Mavs were +.2 points per 100 without Dirk...

Just for fun, anyone can go compare that to the actual best teams. You'll see far better help statistically.

You forgot about Webber going down and the '03 Kings.

Young X
10-19-2015, 10:44 PM
I remember that Mavs team. Dirk, Nash, Finley, Van Excel, etc. I think they were the best team that season and would've won had Dirk not gotten injured.

I wonder if Mavs fans believe that team was better than the '11 squad. I think they were.

Locked_Up_Tonight
10-19-2015, 11:30 PM
I remember that Mavs team. Dirk, Nash, Finley, Van Excel, etc. I think they were the best team that season and would've won had Dirk not gotten injured.

I wonder if Mavs fans believe that team was better than the '11 squad. I think they were.

I don't believe they were. The 03 team had one fatal flaw. Don Nelson.

Put it to you this way. Put Carlisle coaching the 03 team and Don coaching the 11 team. The 03 team wins.

Put Carlisle coaching the 11 team and Don coaching the 03 team. The 11 team wins.

Don Nelson would get more out of a team during the regular season than Carlisle. Carlisle would get more out of the team in the playoffs than Nelson.

DoctorP
10-19-2015, 11:43 PM
Dirk ended up recovering nicely. Just kept going.

Young X
10-19-2015, 11:44 PM
I don't believe they were. The 03 team had one fatal flaw. Don Nelson.

Put it to you this way. Put Carlisle coaching the 03 team and Don coaching the 11 team. The 03 team wins.

Put Carlisle coaching the 11 team and Don coaching the 03 team. The 11 team wins.

Don Nelson would get more out of a team during the regular season than Carlisle. Carlisle would get more out of the team in the playoffs than Nelson.Good point. I couldn't see Nelson and the '03 Mavs defend Lebron like they did in the finals.

The '03 team had more dominant offensive ability and talent, but the '11 team has better coaching and defense which I believe are more important to winning a title.

Both are better than the '06 team. I think we can all agree on that (or no?).

DMAVS41
10-19-2015, 11:49 PM
You forgot about Webber going down and the '03 Kings.

I didn't forget...I think the Mavs were better, but again, who knows.

Also, Dirk went down in the WCF...so it's not like the Kings were on the verge of winning (the WCF was the finals) like the Mavs were.

DMAVS41
10-19-2015, 11:53 PM
Good point. I couldn't see Nelson and the '03 Mavs defend Lebron like they did in the finals.

The '03 team had more dominant offensive ability and talent, but the '11 team has better coaching and defense which I believe are more important to winning a title.

Both are better than the '06 team. I think we can all agree on that (or no?).

I like the talent on the 03 team better, but Carlisle is a huge upgrade over Nelson.

I would add though that Nelson really had his finger on the pulse of that team. He got them to play his offense, but also had them really playing quality defense throughout the year.

Like every Mavs team, they really weren't good without Dirk, but back then Dirk could basically go 44 minutes when needed.

I would personally, on talent, rate those teams as 03, 11, and 06 in order from best to worst, but absolutely agree that Rick was a big difference maker over Don and especially Avery.

Young X
10-20-2015, 12:18 AM
Another thing I would like to know from Mavs fans is what year did Dirk truly peak?

Some people say he was at his best in '06, some say '11, some even say he peaked the years in between.

His season in 2006 was brilliant all the way up until the finals (I believe he should've been the MVP) but he was more mature and experienced in 2011.

DMAVS41
10-20-2015, 01:04 AM
Another thing I would like to know from Mavs fans is what year did Dirk truly peak?

Some people say he was at his best in '06, some say '11, some even say he peaked the years in between.

His season in 2006 was brilliant all the way up until the finals (I believe he should've been the MVP) but he was more mature and experienced in 2011.

I definitely don't think his peak was 06. He was all time good/great starting around 02 season (with the signs of what awaited us as Mavs fans in those last two Spurs games of the 01 playoffs) and continued to improve, but I think there was still a little left to improve upon both mentally and in certain aspects of his game like his post game and passing that occurred in part because of the Heat and Warriors series in 06 and 07. I think he improved his game in 08 in some of those ways and it really showed the last 25 or so games of 08 and into the playoffs in which he was pretty freaking good.

So I personally think peak Dirk was in 09. I think he was mentally better than he had been, he had added a better post game by then, his passing was better than it had ever been...and he still had the spring to his step he did in his true athletic prime for the most part.

So while the 11 playoffs might have been the best Dirk ever played for a certain stretch for a variety of circumstances...I actually think in 09 Dirk was capable of the most on the basketball court.

So if I had to break down his career...it would be;

99 - 00 Raw young pup with amazing potential
01 -02 Developing greatness
03 -07 Playing at an All time great NBA level, but not fully reached potential
08 - 11 Fully reached potential (or close to it)
12 -14 All NBA caliber player
15 Quality player

Young X
10-20-2015, 02:02 AM
I definitely don't think his peak was 06. He was all time good/great starting around 02 season (with the signs of what awaited us as Mavs fans in those last two Spurs games of the 01 playoffs) and continued to improve, but I think there was still a little left to improve upon both mentally and in certain aspects of his game like his post game and passing that occurred in part because of the Heat and Warriors series in 06 and 07. I think he improved his game in 08 in some of those ways and it really showed the last 25 or so games of 08 and into the playoffs in which he was pretty freaking good.

So I personally think peak Dirk was in 09. I think he was mentally better than he had been, he had added a better post game by then, his passing was better than it had ever been...and he still had the spring to his step he did in his true athletic prime for the most part.

So while the 11 playoffs might have been the best Dirk ever played for a certain stretch for a variety of circumstances...I actually think in 09 Dirk was capable of the most on the basketball court.

So if I had to break down his career...it would be;

99 - 00 Raw young pup with amazing potential
01 -02 Developing greatness
03 -07 All time great NBA player but not fully reached potential
08 - 11 Fully reached potential (or close to it)
12 -14 All NBA caliber player
15 Quality playerThanks for the response. It's interesting because '09 might be one of the worst regular seasons of his prime but you would rather have a more experienced and skilled Dirk come playoff time against elite defenses over more potential regular season success.

It's kinda like the debate on Lebron's peak. Was it is around 2010 when his athleticism was at insane levels or years later after his Boston and Dallas series where he became more mature and skilled.

DMAVS41
10-20-2015, 12:14 PM
Thanks for the response. It's interesting because '09 might be one of the worst regular seasons of his prime but you would rather have a more experienced and skilled Dirk come playoff time against elite defenses over more potential regular season success.

It's kinda like the debate on Lebron's peak. Was it is around 2010 when his athleticism was at insane levels or years later after his Boston and Dallas series where he became more mature and skilled.

So much is dependent on the team a player plays on though when you start looking at production so closely.

There was nothing in Dirk in 09 that was going to lead to less regular season success. It was a product of being on a good, but not great team. Dampier and Wright probably shouldn't have been in the top 10 of any legit contender rotation...yet they were the 5 and 6 in minutes per game in 09. Josh Howard missed a bunch of games and the defensive make up of that team was really bad.

Give 09 Dirk the 11 roster and I think it's pretty clear it would have been extremely easy for Dirk to average well over 23/7/3 and lead them to around 60 wins.

It's not like in the 09 season Dirk fell off dramatically individually. He averaged 26/8/2.

The Mavs were only +3.7 points per 100 as a team in 09. Compare that to +8.4 in 06, +11.7 in 07, and plus 10.6 in 11.

Those 09 Mavs just weren't that good...even if one were to claim part of that is on Dirk. Surely they wouldn't ever try to argue that he was the main reason for the drop off compared to other years for the team differential.

I think, also, the answer lies in watching what Dirk did in the 09 and 10 playoffs. He averaged 27/9/3 64% TS. You can go back to 08 through 10 playoffs and he averaged 27/10/3 63% TS.

He had never been that efficient that consistently in the playoffs at any stretch in his career.

From 03 through 07 he shot 57% TS...still great on his volume, but something changed in his ability to consistently score better against the best and specific defenses post 07.

This is one reason I think it's obvious 08 through 11 was his true peak years.

Just take a look at this:

From 03-07 Dirk averaged 25/11/3 57% TS in the playoffs

From 08-11 Dirk averaged 27/9/3 62% TS in the playoffs

And, outside of the 11 team, the other teams were not very good at all...yet Dirk was still able to produce consistently at a level in the playoffs he hadn't been able to consistently reproduce.

This is why I was so confident that Dirk could win a ring with the right team....and 11 proved me right.

Pointguard
10-20-2015, 04:03 PM
99 - 00 Raw young pup with amazing potential
01 -02 Developing greatness
03 -07 All time great NBA player but not fully reached potential
08 - 11 Fully reached potential (or close to it)
12 -14 All NBA caliber player
15 Quality player
I realize now that its just the way you talk or write things. All time great should be a level beyond regular greatness. Its elite of the elite. After three years a lot of people had questioned why Shaq was in the top 50 greatest. And most people agreed that he wasn't an all-time great just yet. Shaq was at 29ppg 3 blocks per game 13 rebounds lead the league in FG% in his second year.

To think that Dirk in '10, was on a level beyond all time great is mindboggling. And most would not put him on the level as a scorer of a lot of his contemporaries, Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Shaq, a healthy Wade/Tmac, or now S. Curry.

DMAVS41
10-20-2015, 04:43 PM
I realize now that its just the way you talk or write things. All time great should be a level beyond regular greatness. Its elite of the elite. After three years a lot of people had questioned why Shaq was in the top 50 greatest. And most people agreed that he wasn't an all-time great just yet. Shaq was at 29ppg 3 blocks per game 13 rebounds lead the league in FG% in his second year.

To think that Dirk in '10, was on a level beyond all time great is mindboggling. And most would not put him on the level as a scorer of a lot of his contemporaries, Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Shaq, a healthy Wade/Tmac, or now S. Curry.


I really don't think so.

There are different levels of all time great. Certainly the 50th best player of all time is "all time great"...

Certainly the 30th best player of all time is "all time great", but also greater than the 50th best player.

So from 03 to 07 I don't think anyone would contest that Dirk was playing at an all time great level.

What they might take issue with is me saying he improved off that level a little from 08 through 11. I think I can defend that claim though...

But nah...you can have different tiers of all time great players.

It's accurate to say Tim Duncan is an all time great player. It's also accurate to say Dirk is an all time great player. Yet Tim Duncan was absolutely greater than Dirk. I don't see any issue there in reality or via semantics even.

I know you hate me and think very low of Dirk, but I really hope you aren't trying to take issue with the claim that Dirk was/is an all time great player.

Pointguard
10-20-2015, 05:35 PM
I really don't think so.

There are different levels of all time great. Certainly the 50th best player of all time is "all time great"...

Certainly the 30th best player of all time is "all time great", but also greater than the 50th best player.

So from 03 to 07 I don't think anyone would contest that Dirk was playing at an all time great level.

What they might take issue with is me saying he improved off that level a little from 08 through 11. I think I can defend that claim though...

But nah...you can have different tiers of all time great players.

It's accurate to say Tim Duncan is an all time great player. It's also accurate to say Dirk is an all time great player. Yet Tim Duncan was absolutely greater than Dirk. I don't see any issue there in reality or via semantics even.

I know you hate me and think very low of Dirk, but I really hope you aren't trying to take issue with the claim that Dirk was/is an all time great player.
I don't hate you or think low of Dirk. Just that before '07 I don't have him as an all time great. Great is fine, but the best of the best usually have something else going outside of their MVP which happened in '07, like a ring, a scoring title, a rebound title. Or even an obvious distinction like Step Curry does where he's the best shooter in the game without question. Before '07 Dirk didn't have what most greats have.

DMAVS41
10-20-2015, 05:41 PM
I don't hate you or think low of Dirk. Just that before '07 I don't have him as an all time great. Great is fine, but the best of the best usually have something else going outside of their MVP which happened in '07, like a ring, a scoring title, a rebound title. Or even an obvious distinction like Step Curry does where he's the best shooter in the game without question. Before '07 Dirk didn't have what most greats have.


Oh...I see the confusion.

I was talking about his level of play. That from 03 through 07 he was playing the game at an all time great level or similar to the level of certain all time great players.

I should have been more clear and I'll edit the post.

I wasn't making a statement that by 07 he should be known as an "all time great" player in the way you define it.

I think Curry is a good example. He perhaps hasn't done enough in your view to be considered an all time great player...but he's clearly playing the game at an all time great level.


That was my point.

Pointguard
10-21-2015, 12:31 AM
Oh...I see the confusion.

I was talking about his level of play. That from 03 through 07 he was playing the game at an all time great level or similar to the level of certain all time great players.

I should have been more clear and I'll edit the post.

I wasn't making a statement that by 07 he should be known as an "all time great" player in the way you define it.

I think Curry is a good example. He perhaps hasn't done enough in your view to be considered an all time great player...but he's clearly playing the game at an all time great level.


That was my point.
My fault, you actually did say "level" of play.

masonanddixon
10-21-2015, 09:51 AM
I like the talent on the 03 team better, but Carlisle is a huge upgrade over Nelson.

I would add though that Nelson really had his finger on the pulse of that team. He got them to play his offense, but also had them really playing quality defense throughout the year.

Like every Mavs team, they really weren't good without Dirk, but back then Dirk could basically go 44 minutes when needed.

I would personally, on talent, rate those teams as 03, 11, and 06 in order from best to worst, but absolutely agree that Rick was a big difference maker over Don and especially Avery.

02-03 was my favorite version of the Mavs but their defense was atrocious and Dirk wasn't half the player then that he was in 10-11.

10-11 had some of the best defense I have ever seen.

DMAVS41
10-21-2015, 12:41 PM
02-03 was my favorite version of the Mavs but their defense was atrocious and Dirk wasn't half the player then that he was in 10-11.

10-11 had some of the best defense I have ever seen.

The defense was not atrocious. You might be thinking of the 04 team.

ArbitraryWater
10-21-2015, 09:05 PM
7 first round exits :eek: :eek:

Anddddddddddddd I've unlocked you, the troll is showing.

--

We talked about this one, from 2006-2011 Dirk was playing at pretty much the same level (while his game obv. changed).

2003 Dirk isn't much off, at all. Crazy consistency.