The top level of player in the 90's were 1st option Finals guys, aka

[3ball]

MJ, Barkley, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson

^^^ it was common knowledge that they were the top level in the 90's and everyone else was considered vastly inferior

Guys like Pippen, Stockton or Nance were weaker scorers and therefore 2nd options, aka 2nd tier players and nowhere near the 1st option Finals standard of the top tier guys

Ultimately, every elite 1st option is capable of nearly 30 ppg or even higher, with elite shooting and/or iso skills, so Pippen is a 2nd option because he lacks all of these things (can't average nearly 30 and lacks elite shooting/iso skills)

Guys like Kemp/Payton and Penny were borderline 1st option Finals guys because they were in 1a/1b situations and shared EQUAL SCORING DUTIES.. meanwhile, Miller missed the 90's by making the 00' Finals..

[Overdrive]

When did Clyde score nearly 30?

[SouBeachTalents]

Says a lot about Jordan that he lost 3 years in a row to a team who's top scorer, by OP's own admission, was a 2nd tier player and nowhere near the top tier guys

[3ball]

When did Clyde score nearly 30?

31/8/7 in 92' WCSF

27/8/6 in 89' and 90' regular season

He was a 2-time, first-option Finals guy, aka the gold standard of the 90's... Averaged 26/8/5 in the 90' and 92' Finals against the goat perimeter defenders (Rodman and MJ)

[3ball]

Says a lot about Jordan that he lost 3 years in a row to a team who's top scorer, by OP's own admission, was a 2nd tier player and nowhere near the top tier guys

Isiah averaged nearly 30 in numerous playoff series, including the 90' Finals (FMVP)... Ditto Dumars (89' FMVP)

Infact, Pippen/Gasol are the only modern sidekicks with 2+ rings that don't have a FMVP or average 25-30 ppg... aka worthy/dumars/parker have FMVP... And Kyrie/Mchale/Curry averaged 25-30

[insidious301]

Prime Pippen beats Prime Ewing in basically all advanced stats. 91-98 Pippen > 88-97 Ewing in WS-WS48-ORTG-BPM-APM-RAPM-VORP. Pippen was a true #1 just as the numbers intimate.

[3ball]

Prime Pippen beats Prime Ewing in basically all advanced stats. 91-98 Pippen > 88-97 Ewing in WS-WS48-ORTG-BPM-APM-RAPM-VORP. Pippen was a true #1 just as the numbers intimate.




So does Draymond

But Draymond isn't considered anywhere near a 1st option Finals guy like Ewing and neither should Pippen

Of course, Ewing infact has higher player efficiency rating (PER) and shooting efficiency (FG, TS, EFG, FT), which magnifies his already-huge scoring edge.. the scoring ability gap is why Ewing was a 1st option Finals guy (top tier of 90's), while Pippen is 2nd option

[Roundball_Rock]

Says a lot about Jordan that he lost 3 years in a row to a team who's top scorer, by OP's own admission, was a 2nd tier player and nowhere near the top tier guys

:roll:


When did Clyde score nearly 30?

In Jordanstan. :oldlol:

Clyde scored 27 at his peak. Adjusting Pippen's peak for Portland's pace (104 versus 92 for Chicago), Pippen is at 25 PPG. That is a whole 2 PPG difference. :sleeping

Pippen's 94' numbers inflate to 25/10/7 at Portland's late 80's pace. 92' line becomes 23/9/8 at Portland's faster pace. What a bum!

[Smoke117]

1-9

[3ball]

:lol



In Jordanstan. :oldlol:

Clyde scored 27 at his peak. Adjusting Pippen's peak for Portland's pace (104 versus 92 for Chicago), Pippen is at 25 PPG. That is a whole 2 PPG. :sleeping

Clyde averaged 31 in the 92' WCSF - that's much better than Pippen's 7-game series capability... Clyde also averaged 26/8/5 in the Finals vs Rodman/MJ, while Pippen averaged 19 on 42% in the 6 Finals

Clyde's ability to average 30 and be a 1st option Finals guy puts him in the top tier of 90's players, while Pippen was a 2nd option and 2nd tier due to weaker scoring

It's quite simple

[Roundball_Rock]

1-9

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/2016-03-12_Collage_of_various_signage_styles_along_U.S._Ro ute_1_and_U.S._Route_9_%28U.S._Route_1%269%29_in_n ortheastern_New_Jersey.jpg/220px-2016-03-12_Collage_of_various_signage_styles_along_U.S._Ro ute_1_and_U.S._Route_9_%28U.S._Route_1%269%29_in_n ortheastern_New_Jersey.jpg

Are federal roads eligible for "Adopt a Road" programs? Maybe MJ can adopt Routes 1-9 where they merge (which is around Newark, NJ).

[3ball]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/2016-03-12_Collage_of_various_signage_styles_along_U.S._Ro ute_1_and_U.S._Route_9_%28U.S._Route_1%269%29_in_n ortheastern_New_Jersey.jpg/220px-2016-03-12_Collage_of_various_signage_styles_along_U.S._Ro ute_1_and_U.S._Route_9_%28U.S._Route_1%269%29_in_n ortheastern_New_Jersey.jpg

Are federal roads eligible for "Adopt a Road" programs? Maybe MJ can adopt Routes 1-9 where they merge (which is around Newark, NJ).

I knew I'd get ya

You can camoflauge stats for Draymond and Pippen all you want, but you can't turn them into 1st option Finals guys, the gold standard for pretty much any era

Elite 1st options, aka 1st option Finals guys are capable of averaging nearly 30, or even more, and are great shooters and/or iso players..... aka the opposite of a "Pippen"

[Roundball_Rock]

I lived in that area for several years. MJ may the only person who has been 1-9 more than me.

[3ball]

I lived in that area for several years. MJ may the only person who has been 1-9 more than me.

Peak Playoff Performance, 7-game series

Drexler 31/8/7
Pippen 21/9/7


Finals Averages and defenders

Drexler 26/8/5.. rodman, mj
Pippen 19/8/5.. worthy, kersey, dumas, schrempf, hornacek*


^^^ one of them was an elite 1st option, aka 1st option Finals guy, the gold standard of any era

* Utah put SF Byron Russell as the primary defender of Jordan, and Hornacek on Pippen (that's how horrible Pippen was on offense)

[Roundball_Rock]

* Utah put SF Byron Russell as the primary defender of Jordan, and Hornacek on Pippen ) that's how horrible Pippen was on offense)

Yeah--while frequently doubling him since Hornacek couldn't defend Pippen alone. This shows you never watched MJ or Pippen play...even arguably his most iconic game.

End of the "flu game", series tied 2-2 and the Bulls down in the game, less than 30 seconds left. Kids, go to 2:07:10 or so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhSDVuYz7w

Pippen passes to MJ, Jordan gives it to Pippen in the post (despite MJ stans telling us he "had no post game"). Russell leaves MJ to double Pippen--MJ left wide open for the game winning three via the Pippen dish. Not bad for a "horrible on offense" player--getting doubled on the most important possession in Jazz team history up to that point. :pimp:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Ewing during his only prime finals run: 22 PPG on 50% TS?

That's not a 1st option scorer.

[3ball]

Yeah--while frequently doubling him since Hornacek couldn't defend Pippen alone. This shows you never watched MJ or Pippen play...even arguably his most iconic game.

End of the "flu game", series tied 2-2 and the Bulls down in the game, less than 30 seconds left. Kids, go to 2:07:10 or so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhSDVuYz7w

Pippen passes to MJ, Jordan gives it to Pippen in the post (despite MJ stans telling us he "had no post game"). Russell leaves MJ to double Pippen--MJ left wide open for the game winning three via the Pippen dish. Not bad for a "horrible on offense" player--getting doubled on the most important possession in Jazz team history up to that point. :pimp:

They doubled OFF jordan.. a dumb play obviously and opposite of normal strategy in that spot.. teams normally thanked their lucky stars the few times that Pippen was stuck with the ball in the clutch

[insidious301]

So does Draymond

But Draymond isn't considered anywhere near a 1st option Finals guy like Ewing and neither should Pippen

Not true. Prime Ewing has Draymond beat in most major, advanced statistical categories. Your example was weak, and it still renders Pippen a #1 option. A better #1 than the #1 from Chicago's best opponent.

[3ball]

Not true. Prime Ewing has Draymond beat in most major, advanced statistical categories. Your example was weak, and it still renders Pippen a #1 option. A better #1 than the #1 from Chicago's best opponent.
Pippen wasn't a 1st option Finals guy, and therefore doesn't meet the criteria for top tier of the 90"s like the usual suspects MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Drexler and Robinson..

Pippen was never considered in this top tier because his scoring was vastly inferior to all these guys and he's universally considered a 2nd option.. the term "a pippen" has become synonymous with 2nd option

[insidious301]

Pippen wasn't a 1st option Finals guy, and therefore doesn't meet the criteria for top tier of the 90"s like the usual suspects MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Drexler and Robinson..

Pippen was never considered in this top tier because his scoring was vastly inferior to all these guys and he's universally considered a 2nd option.. the term "a pippen" has become synonymous with 2nd option

The data and evidence don't agree with your opinion. For example: VORP-BPM-APM-RAPM-ORTG-WS-WS48. Facts are all that matter, otherwise someone could claim Luke Walton was really a Finals guy.

[3ball]

The data and evidence don't agree with your opinion. For example: VORP-BPM-APM-RAPM-ORTG-WS-WS48. Facts are all that matter, otherwise someone could claim Luke Walton was really a Finals guy.

Ewing leads more stat categories so who cares... Are we just counting up categories to see who leads more?... Because Ewing wins easily that way

Otherwise, Ewing leads the ones that matter - PPG, efficiency, and player efficiency rating... His elite scoring ability allowed him to reach the top level, aka 1st option Finals guys... Pippen can't reach this level because he's a weak scorer and 2nd option

[Roundball_Rock]

The data and evidence don't agree with your opinion. For example: VORP-BPM-APM-RAPM-ORTG-WS-WS48. Facts are all that matter, otherwise someone could claim Luke Walton was really a Finals guy.

Or that Manu>Pippen, which we just heard from 1-9ball Junior. These guys are jokes.

[3ball]

Or that Manu>Pippen, which we just heard from 1-9ball Junior. These guys are jokes.

Ewing leads more stat categories so who cares... Are we just counting up categories to see who leads more?... Because Ewing wins easily that way

Otherwise, Ewing leads the ones that matter - PPG, efficiency, and player efficiency rating... His elite scoring ability allowed him to reach the top level, aka 1st option Finals guys... Pippen can't reach this level because he's a weak scorer and 2nd option

[insidious301]

Ewing leads more stat categories so who cares... Are we just counting up categories to see who leads more?... Because Ewing wins easily that way

Otherwise, Ewing leads the ones that matter - PPG, efficiency, and player efficiency rating... His elite scoring ability allowed him to reach the top level, aka 1st option Finals guys... Pippen can't reach this level because he's a weak scorer and 2nd option

Pippen leads in the most important data. The advanced type. The isolated impact stats are all in his favor too. With this measure the total game you have in your skillset is accounted for. Bpm-rapm-apm are especially great because of the isolated effect from team. PPG isn't an adjusted or advanced stat, but I am throwing you a bone and added it. The official count is like 11-3 in Pippen's favor. And now that we know Pippen leads in the most crucial of numbers, we can surmise he was a better #1 than Ewing, who also led Chicago's best comp.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs

In any era, the top caliber of player is a 1st option Finals guy, which requires elite scoring

Pippen lacks elite scoring, so he wasn't capable of being a 1st option Finals guy like MJ, Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson - these were the top tier of the 90's and Pippen wasn't in this group

[insidious301]

Why did Prime Pippen have better numbers and impact than Ewing? Whatever the case being, go ahead and add Pippen to your OP.

[3ball]

Why did Prime Pippen have better numbers and impact than Ewing? Whatever the case being, go ahead and add Pippen to your OP.
Ewing leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be the top caliber, aka 1st option Finals guy..

In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, and Robinson.. These were the top tier and Pippen wasn't included due to weaker scoring ability..

These are facts that sit comfortably with me... But you go ahead and hang on to a smaller number of stat categories, including stats that double with each additional steal..

[Roundball_Rock]

Highest MVP finish: Pippen 3rd, Ewing 4th.

Ewing had a full prime as a "#1" while Pippen had one season and Pippen's one season was a higher finish than Ewing's entire prime? :lol

Here is what people said about prime Pippen at the time, who we hear was Iggy, was Draymond, was worse than Manu, was Michael Cooper, etc. from these people.


"You think about it, Scottie Pippen might just be the second-best all-around player in the league," Bill Walton, the broadcaster and former NBA All-Star, says. "Who's better, outside of Michael? Who does more things? Karl Malone, maybe. Maybe not."

You think about it. Pippen has developed the entire late-night video-offer package of talents. He is tall enough and jumps high enough to move inside. He handles the ball well enough to be virtually a third guard, dribbling up the floor in the Bulls offense. He is a point forward, a position not listed in the old textbooks, the modern all-purpose basketball part. What do you want to do? Guard him high, and he will take you low. Guard him low, and he will take you high. Don't guard him for a moment? He is gone, rising over the basket and depositing the ball with a house-call efficiency that makes you remember Dr. Julius Erving himself.

As the Bulls have sailed along in this postchampionship season, looking for a long while as if they might win more games than any team in NBA history, he has been a second whirling dervish for opposing teams to consider. Jordan on one side of the court, Pippen on the other, interchangeable, lethal...how can any defense fully concentrate in either direction?

Why would they focus on Pippen? He was a non-entity on offense.


"He's the best athlete all-around to ever play in the NBA. Tell me somebody who can do what he could do for 48 minutes on the basketball court. He was the best all-around.


"Scottie is more skilled than all of them. Scottie Pippen is probably the most skilled player I ever played with."

How? Skilled? All-around? All he could do is defend. MJ stans, remember this? The Jordan police were in full force to make an example out of Salley for not sucking MJ's D like he "should."


"I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."


In other words for you slow people out there, he is saying Pippen is basically as good as MJ. 1a to 1. Krause said basically the same thing.


“He defines this position (the 3 spot)...leading them in points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and minutes. He can do everything, he has a defensive demeanor and he can do it all offensively.”


He is almost unstoppable, the only thing that will stop Scottie Pippen because he is so talented with the dribble, is himself if he is having a cold shooting night.”

"He is such a great all-around player, he has developed his game, once Michael left, the total guy has emerged."



“He is still very attractive to a lot of people because he is one of the most, I think the most complete player in the NBA, does everything well. Rumor is he is going to Golden State. Don Nelson loves that type of player. The rumor is Latrell Sprewell and Tom Gugliotta come to Chicago in return for the Bulls all-star."


“Pippen, the best all-around player in the game.”


Go to 1:35, they are talking about MJ saying Pippen is the best player in the NBA. :oldlol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJQvkn_zUIg


Announcer: What can’t Scottie Pippen do?
Daly: He has it all.


We can on all day. MJ stans still can't find one quote where someone says Pippen is a one-way player a la Rodman.

Does this sound like he was Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace to you? :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

.
Thread Cliffs

In any era, the top caliber of player is a 1st option Finals guy, which requires elite scoring

Pippen lacks elite scoring, so he wasn't capable of being a 1st option Finals guy like MJ, Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson - these were the top tier of the 90's and Pippen wasn't in this group
Nope, Isiah won b2b titles averaging 18 & 21 ppg while knocking Jordan's ass out of the playoffs

[ImKobe]

Why did Prime Pippen have better numbers and impact than Ewing? Whatever the case being, go ahead and add Pippen to your OP.

Better numbers & impact? Ewing averaged 25/11/2/1/3 and led the Knicks to 57 wins with Starks missing 23 games in '94, less help on offense yet the Knicks were just .4 ORTG lower than the Bulls and had the #1 defense & he outplayed Pippen in the '94 Playoffs. That's all we need to know.

[ImKobe]

Nope, Isiah won b2b titles averaging 18 & 21 ppg while knocking Jordan's ass out of the playoffs

Averaged 28/5/7 on 62.9%TS when he won FMVP in 1990. Pistons had no trouble sweeping the Lakers once Magic went out.

[GrayGoat]

I’m new here I’ve never seen a punching bag quite like OP. Is this normal?

[insidious301]

Ewing leads the majority of stat categories,

Prime Pippen beats Prime Ewing in basically all advanced stats. Advanced are the ones which carry most weight. Or what we call "impact". So, 91-98 Pippen > 88-97 Ewing in WS-WS48-ORTG-BPM-OBPM-APM-RAPM-VORP. Pippen was a true #1 just as the numbers intimate. Add him to your OP asap.


Better numbers & impact?

Yes that's correct. I will post the exact response I had for 3ball.

"91-98 Pippen > 88-97 Ewing in WS-WS48-ORTG-BPM-OBPM-APM-RAPM-VORP"

[SouBeachTalents]

Averaged 28/5/7 on 62.9%TS when he won FMVP in 1990. Pistons had no trouble sweeping the Lakers once Magic went out.
He averaged 18 ppg on 52%TS against the Bulls, the kind of statline that 3ball always brings up to prove that Pippen was a bum

[3ball]

Better numbers & impact? Ewing averaged 25/11/2/1/3 and led the Knicks to 57 wins with Starks missing 23 games in '94, less help on offense yet the Knicks were just .4 ORTG lower than the Bulls and had the #1 defense & he outplayed Pippen in the '94 Playoffs. That's all we need to know.

Damn.. when you put it like that, it seems so simple

Roundball is posting quotes so you know it's end game.. checkmate coming

[ImKobe]

Prime Pippen beats Prime Ewing in basically all advanced stats. Advanced are the ones which carry most weight. Or what we call "impact". So, 91-98 Pippen > 88-97 Ewing in WS-WS48-ORTG-BPM-OBPM-APM-RAPM-VORP. Pippen was a true #1 just as the numbers intimate. Add him to your OP asap.



Yes that's correct. I will post exactly what I did to 3ball.

"Prime Pippen beats Prime Ewing in basically all advanced stats. 91-98 Pippen > 88-97 Ewing in WS-WS48-ORTG-BPM-APM-RAPM-VORP.

Ok, Pippen beats Ewing in advanced metrics. Great. Still wasn't better than him on the court in '92, '93, '94 or '96 Playoffs when they faced eachother.

[insidious301]

Ok, Pippen beats Ewing in advanced metrics. Great.

Once again, correct. This tells us Pippen>Ewing. Which also means Pippen was a better #1 than the #1 playing for Chicago's best comp. Afterall impact is what trumps all.


Still wasn't better than him on the court in '92, '93, '94 or '96 Playoffs when they faced eachother.

Back up your claim, and post the data. Not the cheap raw lines either.

[3ball]

He averaged 18 ppg on 52%TS against the Bulls, the type of statline 3ball always points to for Pippen being a bum

But the CAPABILITY was there because of past performance.. the defense was never like "oh that's just bricklayer Isiah, he won't get more than 18 or 21", because everyone knew what kind of scorer he was.. they'd seen him average 26/11 in the 85' ECSF against the Celtics, or 24/9 in the 87' ecf... Or they saw him get 42 on one leg Game 5 of the 88' Finals or average 28/5/8 on the 90' Finals

Whereas Pippen never averaged more than 21-22, and people knew an Iggy-type player wasn't a threat for big scoring nights

Ultimately, Isiah was a #1 option, and Pippen wasn't.. of Pippen is a team's #1 option, then everyone on the cast is a worse scorer, which makes for an ugly offense and weak team

[insidious301]

Still no answer on why Pippen isn't on the list. Prime for prime, he has Ewing beat in every impact measure that is relevant.

[3ball]

Still no answer on why Pippen isn't on the list. Prime for prime, he has Ewing beat in every impact measure that is relevant.




Every impact measure?

Scoring?

Defense?

Efficiency?

PER?

WS/48?


wtf are you talking about... Ewing leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be the top caliber, aka 1st option Finals guy..

In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, and Robinson.. These were the top tier and Pippen wasn't included due to weaker scoring ability... This is common knowledge

[Roundball_Rock]

Still no answer on why Pippen isn't on the list. Prime for prime, he has Ewing beat in every impact measure that is relevant.

From either 1-9ball or "gooseman." :lol Now they are saying Manu>Pippen. Manu>Pippen>Ewing. So the 3rd/4th option on the Spurs LeBron faced was better than the #1 on the Bulls' top comp. Damn.

[Turbo Slayer]

From either 1-9ball or "gooseman." :lol Now they are saying Manu>Pippen. Manu>Pippen>Ewing. So the 3rd/4th option on the Spurs LeBron faced was better than the #1 on the Bulls' top comp. Damn.

LeGOAT.

[insidious301]

Every impact measure?

Scoring?

Defense?

Efficiency?

PER?

WS/48?


wtf are you talking about...

You're not reading posts again. Those stats do not measure impact. Advanced stats do, specifically the ones isolating impact. Prime Pippen has Ewing beat in WS/48 btw, not the other way around. So that isn't in his favor just like BPM-OBPM-RAPM-APM-VORP-ORTG-WS aren't either. That now begs the question: if the most important of numbers are in Pippen's favor, why isn't he on your list?

Wake up and edit your OP.


From either 1-9ball or "gooseman." :lol Now they are saying Manu>Pippen. Manu>Pippen>Ewing. So the 3rd/4th option on the Spurs LeBron faced was better than the #1 on the Bulls' top comp. Damn.

What the hell? Where? If you are referring to that HBK poster, he is talking about one playoff run I think. Manu was great in the 2005 playoffs so I can see where he is coming from. Of course, one run doesn't make you the better player. That would be the height ignorance.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeGOAT.

Yup, per their arguments, LeBron played in a tough era while MJ was in a joke era where MVP candidates would be 4th/5th options today on a team like the Spurs.



What the hell? Where? If you are referring to that HBK poster, he is talking about one playoff run I think. Manu was great in the 2005 playoffs so I can see where he is coming from. Of course, one run doesn't make you the better player. That would be the height ignorance.

We now have two Manu/Pippen threads. In one of them tpols, another 1-9ball Junior, said:


Also, you can't compare manu to a "pippen"... manu is an alpha dog offensive player. They aint the same.

HBK is saying Pippen=Manu. That's almost equally as ridiculous, although not as bad as tpols.


Advanced stats do, and specifically the ones isolating impact. Prime Pippen has Ewing beat in WS/48 btw, not the other way around. So that isn't in his favor just like BPM-RAPM-APM-VORP-ORTG-WS aren't either. So if the most important of numbers are in Pippen's favor, why isn't he on your list? Wake up and edit your OP.

It shouldn't be hard for him to grasp. :oldlol:

[3ball]

You're not reading posts again. Those stats do not measure impact. Advanced stats do, specifically the ones isolating impact. Prime Pippen has Ewing beat in WS/48 btw, not the other way around. So that isn't in his favor just like BPM-OBPM-RAPM-APM-VORP-ORTG-WS aren't either. That now begs the question: if the most important of numbers are in Pippen's favor, why isn't he on your list?



Career WS/48

Ewing.. 0.150
Pip...... 0.146


Ewing leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be a1st option Finals guy (top caliber player)

In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, and Robinson.. These were the top tier and Pippen wasn't included due to weaker scoring ability... This is common knowledge

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol he is forced to go to 1) stat 2) rely on past prime years. That is a big admission: he knows Ewing can't win the prime vs. prime match up.


In the 90's, the 1st option Finals guys were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, and Robinson.

Common knowledge: the best players of the 90's were MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Barkley, Pippen, Drexler, Robinson, Payton in some order.

BTW, note all this "2nd option" BS here. Manu was a 3rd/4th option. Suddenly options don't matter there!

[insidious301]

Yup, per their arguments, LeBron played in a tough era while MJ was in a joke era where MVP candidates would be 4th/5th options today on a team like the Spurs.

We now have two Manu/Pippen threads. In one of them tpols, another 1-9ball Junior, said:

HBK is saying Pippen=Manu. That's almost equally as ridiculous, although not as bad as tpols.

It shouldn't be hard for him to grasp. :oldlol:

The guy coming off the bench, and producing less than Pippen, on both ends, is magically better. Sounds like a lot like Ewing here, Roundball. Except he was actually a starter.



Ewing.. 0.150
Pip...... 0.146

Ewing leads the majority of stat categories, including the scoring and efficiency categories that are needed to be a1st option Finals guy (top caliber player)

Pippen bests Ewing prime for prime in ws48. Prime play matters more because A) it was obviously them at their best, and B) there is a large sample spanning 8-9 seasons. To go along with more WS48, Pippen also had better BPM-OBPM-APM-RAPM-VORP-ORTG-WS-WS48. So Prime Pippen was better and had more impact. Hope that clears it up.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Another thread w/ insidious and RR shitting on 3ball and his inbred cousins. Damn!

[insidious301]

Another thread w/ insidious and RR shitting on 3ball and his inbred cousins. Damn!

I got to give Roundball credit for the stats he used. Its sad the cult-like fanbase wont adhere to the facts though - the same ones they ironically prefer. We're still waiting to hear why Prime Pippen wasn't a #1 despite outplaying Ewing, and finishing top 10 every year in major impact stats.

[Roundball_Rock]

Another thread w/ insidious and RR shitting on 3ball and his inbred cousins. Damn!

:roll:


The guy coming off the bench, and producing less than Pippen, on both ends, is magically better. Sounds like a lot like Ewing here, Roundball. Except he was actually a starter.

It is crazy. It is easier to put up stats coming off the bench. Look at Lou Williams. His peak "per 100" stats are 36/5/10. His peak "per 36" stats are 27/4/7. Both those stat lines came in 19'. What do those numbers mean? Kawhi's "per 36" that season was 28/8/4. So Williams was Kawhi level as a scorer "per 36". Of course, that isn't how this works. If Williams 1) played starters minutes 2) played against starters more, versus coming on with the second unit twice a game.

That's why these guys are 6th men. They can beast against bench players but wouldn't be the same against starters, thereby negating the advantage they provide coming off the bench. If Williams=Kawhi as a scorer, he would be a #1 option on some other team that would trade for a scorer of that level.

BTW, Kawhi amusingly doesn't make the OP's cut. His career high PPG is "only" 27, not 30.


I got to give Roundball credit for the stats he used. Its sad the cult-like fanbase wont adhere to the facts though - the same ones they ironically prefer. We're still waiting to hear why Prime Pippen wasn't a #1 despite outplaying Ewing along with finishing top 10 every year in major impact stats.


Sane people can debate whether Pippen is 6th or 8th for the decade as a whole or whether his single season peak was 3rd or 5th best in the league but these guys are crazy. Some greatest hits:

*Manu>Pippen
*Derrick Coleman easily>Pippen
*Pippen not top 30 for the 90's
*Iggy=Pippen
*Cooper=Pippen
*Green=Pippen
*Kukoc>Pippen as a scoring option
*Pippen had no post game
*Pippen sucked on offense, was a Rodman-like one way player
*Pippen was only a dunker

[3ball]

The guy coming off the bench, and producing less than Pippen, on both ends, is magically better. Sounds like a lot like Ewing here, Roundball. Except he was actually a starter.



Pippen bests Ewing prime for prime in ws48. Prime play matters more because A) it was obviously them at their best, and B) there is a large sample spanning 8-9 seasons. To go along with more WS48, Pippen also had better BPM-OBPM-APM-RAPM-VORP-ORTG-WS-WS48. So Prime Pippen was better and had more impact. Hope that clears it up.

I have Pippen's prime as 92-96, which was lower than Ewing's prime of 90-94' in most stats, including ws/48

See anyone can pick a prime that suits their guys, so we go with career.. or maybe 1-year peak or 5-year peak..

Regardless, Ewing has higher WS/48 and leads the majority of stat categories, including the critical scoring/efficiency categories required to be a top-level player (1st option Finals guy)..

Pippen never had the scoring required to reach to the top caliber of 1st option Finals guy - only the very best of the 90's could be 1st option Finals guys, aka MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson

[insidious301]

I have Pippen's prime as 92-96, which was lower than Ewing's prime of 90-94' in most stats, including ws/48

See anyone can pick a prime that suits their guys, so we go with career.. or maybe 1-year peak or 5-year peak..

Regardless, Ewing has higher WS/48 and leads the majority of stat categories, including the critical scoring/efficiency categories required to be a top-level player (1st option Finals guy)..

Pippen's prime began in 91 and stayed that way until 1998. His back was hurt in 1998 however his defensive impact was still felt. It is why the Jazz players/coaches pegged him as FMVP, midway through the finals. Ewing's prime clearly began in the late 80s and finished in 97, just before hitting a decline. So you are wrong again. When prime play is accounted for and tallied up, Pippen bests Ewing in nearly all major and advanced stat categories. For example, bpm-obpm-apm-rapm-ortg-ws-ws48-vorp

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol at cherry picking. Pippen was all-NBA 2nd team in 97' but wasn't in his prime? Yet he was in 93' when he was 3rd team?

Ewing was all-NBA in these seasons: 88', 89', 90', 91', 92', 93', 97'. 1988-1997 is the obvious answer. You could cut him off at 1993, but MJ stans swear up and down how great Ewing was in 94' in other threads. Now we aren't even supposed to count it?Another flip flop?

Pippen was all-NBA 1992-1998. 91' he was at that level but didn't get the recognition because the Bulls and Pippen surged in the second half of the season but his PO performance was all-NBA. Accordingly, 1991-1998 for Pippen.


Pippen never had the scoring required to reach to the top caliber of 1st option Finals guy - only the very best of the 90's could be 1st option Finals guys, aka MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson

Pippen at Drexler's pace is 25/10/7 or 23/9/8...Not a first option, doe! Using your "logic", Isiah, Hill, Penny, Payton, KG, Duncan, Russell, Walton are among those who aren't first options either.

[3ball]

Pippen's prime began in 91 and stayed that way until 1998. His back was hurt in 1998 however his defensive impact was still felt. It is why the Jazz players/coaches pegged him as FMVP, midway through the finals. Ewing's prime clearly began in the late 80s and finished in 97, just before hitting a decline. So you are wrong again. When prime play is accounted for and tallied up, Pippen bests Ewing in nearly all major and advanced stat categories. For example, bpm-obpm-apm-rapm-ortg-ws-ws48-vorp

Again, Ewing has higher WS/48 for their career, and also 5 year peak, 1-year peak, and just about anything you want.. he simply had higher WS/48.. and PER.. And efficiency... So they were close in advanced stats

But who cares because Ewing averaged 29/11 and 4.0 block in his peak season, or 25/11 and 3.0 blocks in his 5-year peak.. Pippen is nowhere near this scoring or defense level and was a 2nd option.

[Roundball_Rock]

We did the 5 year exercise spot check in the other thread. :lol Ewing isn't close to Pippen in advanced stats so chicanery doesn't help him.

What MJ stans don't grasp is it is easier to put up stats on trash teams. What were Ewing's stats on good teams? Pippen would put up more stats on bad teams if he took more shots instead of trying to make his teammates better by keeping them involved ("Pippen ball").

[3ball]

:lol at cherry picking. Pippen was all-NBA 2nd team in 97' but wasn't in his prime? Yet he was in 93' when he was 3rd team?

Ewing was all-NBA in these seasons: 88', 89', 90', 91', 92', 93', 97'. 1988-1997 is the obvious answer. You could cut him off at 1993, but MJ stans swear up and down how great Ewing was in 94' in other threads. Now we aren't even supposed to count it?Another flip flop?

Pippen was all-NBA 1992-1998. 91' he was at that level but didn't get the recognition because the Bulls and Pippen surged in the second half of the season but his PO performance was all-NBA. Accordingly, 1991-1998 for Pippen.



Pippen at Drexler's pace is 25/10/7 or 23/9/8...Not a first option, doe! Using your "logic", Isiah, Hill, Penny, Payton, KG, Duncan, Russell, Walton are among those who aren't first options either.
Drexler averaged 26 in the same series that pippen got 21, and Drexler averaged 26 for his Finals and playoff career, compared to 19 on 42% for Pippen's 6 Finals

And Drexler averaged 25-30 in numerous playoff series, while Pippen could barely get 20...

Pippen never averaged 25-30... The top players did, so they were capable of 1st option Finals guy (top caliber).. only the top tier of the 90"s were 1st option Finals guys, aka Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, MJ, Drexler, Robinson

[insidious301]

Again, Ewing has higher WS/48 for their career, and also 5 year peak, 1-year peak, and just about anything you want.. he simply had higher WS/48.. and PER.. And efficiency... So they were close in advanced stats

But who cares because Ewing averaged 29/11 and 4.0 block in his peak season, or 25/11 and 3.0 blocks in his 5-year peak.. Pippen is nowhere near this scoring or defense level and was a 2nd option.

But here again, you are cherry-picking and ignoring the other prime years. We know that when everything is lined up and approximated, Pippen bests Ewing in your proffered WS48 metric. Along with Bpm-obpm-apm-rapm-vorp-ortg-ws-ws48. That's all around efficiency and impact, which again, trumps basic and dated measures.

[Roundball_Rock]

Drexler averaged 26 in the same series that pippen got 21

Yet another line from a MJ stain.

Drexler 24.8/7.8/5.3 on 52% TS
Pippen 20.8/8.3/7.7 on 56% TS

That doesn't even get to defense...or clutch, Pippen leading the Bulls back from down 15 with four bench players in the fourth quarter of Game 6 as Drexler stood there and watched the chip slip away...Pippen hitting the go-ahead field goal late in Game 6.

Moreover, you have to be incredibly dumb to compare PPG numbers for a PG (de facto) to a player tasked to score first, pass second. MJ attracts the dumbest fans. Moreover, MJ was taking 154 shots. Not much left for the rest of the team.

[3ball]

Yet another line from a MJ stain.

Drexler 24.8/7.8/5.3 on 52% TS
Pippen 20.8/8.3/7.7 on 56% TS

That doesn't even get to defense...or clutch, Pippen leading the Bulls back from down 15 with four bench players in the fourth quarter of Game 6 as Drexler stood there and watched the chip slip away...Pippen hitting the go-ahead field goal late in Game 6.

Moreover, you have to be incredibly dumb to compare PPG numbers for a PG (de facto) to a player tasked to score first, pass second. MJ attracts the dumbest fans. Moreover, MJ was taking 154 shots. Not much left for the rest of the team.

^^^ Drexler was capable of 25+ against the best defender ever (MJ in 92' and Rodman in 90'), while Pippen's peak is barely 20, regardless of whether he was 1st or 2nd option - he was a robotic flow scorer

Ultimately, Drexler has a career advantage in the critical scoring and efficiency categories, which were required to be a 1st option Finals guy (top-caliber)

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol

LeBron on his way to another conference finals without Wade. This will be his 7th. MJ couldn't win a series without Pippen. :(

[GrayGoat]

:lol

LeBron on his way to another conference finals without Wade. This will be his 7th. MJ couldn't win a series without Pippen. :(
Bingo

[Shooter]

:roll:



In Jordanstan. :oldlol:

Clyde scored 27 at his peak. Adjusting Pippen's peak for Portland's pace (104 versus 92 for Chicago), Pippen is at 25 PPG. That is a whole 2 PPG difference. :sleeping

Pippen's 94' numbers inflate to 25/10/7 at Portland's late 80's pace. 92' line becomes 23/9/8 at Portland's faster pace. What a bum!

Thread Over.

[Shooter]

Nope, Isiah won b2b titles averaging 18 & 21 ppg while knocking Jordan's ass out of the playoffs

Wow. MJ lost to a Pippenesque scorer?

Uhhhh ohhhhh

MJ lost to Isiah Pippen

[3ball]

:lol

LeBron on his way to another conference finals without Wade. This will be his 7th. MJ couldn't win a series without Pippen. :(

no one considered or believed pippen's accolades, or ever compared him to the top tier guys because he was a 2nd option and they were all 1st options.. they had the required scoring ability to lead their teams to the Finals as the top dawg, and Pippen didn't.. Pippen was a #2.. they were all #1's due to superior scoring ability.. that's the difference and you can't tell me #2's > #1's.... C
certainly not elite #1's that are Finals guys

[GrayGoat]

Wow. MJ lost to a Pippenesque scorer?

Uhhhh ohhhhh

MJ lost to Isiah Pippen
Pippen has more impact so a similar player kicking MJ’s ass makes sense

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow. MJ lost to a Pippenesque scorer?

Uhhhh ohhhhh

MJ lost to Isiah Pippen

:lol