Did 2005 Manu have a better playoff run then Pippen ever did?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Roundballrock, ImKobe, 3ball. What do you think?

Manu had a TS of 65%, a BPM of 9.2 and a VORP of 2.2.

Despite playing less minutes, Manu had a higher VORP then Pippen ever did.

[SouBeachTalents]

It was better than Kawhi's 2014 FMVP run

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It was better than Kawhi's 2014 FMVP run

No way, he didn't lockup Durant and LeBron.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

It is kind of fun to have homers of obscure players like Manu. You expect Jordan, Kobe, Lebron and other superfans. I kind of enjoy the "Manu superfan."

[HoopsNY]

Roundballrock, ImKobe, 3ball. What do you think?

Manu had a TS of 65%, a BPM of 9.2 and a VORP of 2.2.

Despite playing less minutes, Manu had a higher VORP then Pippen ever did.

Not to take anything away from Manu and his 2005 run, which was undoubtedly a great run, but his advanced numbers were largely due to his offensive contributions. Manu led the league in OWS for that playoff year. Now look at the Drtg of each opponent for the first three rounds:

Denver - 8th Drtg
Seattle - 27th Drtg
Phoenix - 17th Drtg

He played well against Detroit, but I think some context should be provided for that entire playoffs.

[light]

In 1996 Scottie Pippen was considered by many to be the best player in the NBA - even ahead of Michael Jordan.

Manu is just not that caliber of player. He's great, but a few tiers below in greatness.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is kind of fun to have homers of obscure players like Manu. You expect Jordan, Kobe, Lebron and other superfans. I kind of enjoy the "Manu superfan."

He isn't a Manu fan. He is a Kawhi fan using Manu to diminish Duncan. Pippen got thrown into it to get MJ stans to join the Manu hype train as "useful idiots" for that agenda.


Not to take anything away from Manu and his 2005 run, which was undoubtedly a great run, but his advanced numbers were largely due to his offensive contributions. Manu led the league in OWS for that playoff year. Now look at the Drtg of each opponent for the first three rounds:

Denver - 8th Drtg
Seattle - 27th Drtg
Phoenix - 17th Drtg

He played well against Detroit, but I think some context should be provided for that entire playoffs.

You also can't compare bench player stats to a superstars. His "per minute" stats are boosted because he was playing 26 MPG and not 42 MPG like superstars did in those eras. Moreover, we are comparing different rules. Manu did nothing before the handchecking rules change. He would still be a great player, but his 20 PPG wouldn't be 20 PPG under the old rules.

How was Manu perceived relative to the SG of his era? That tells the tale.

[insidious301]

Not to take anything away from Manu and his 2005 run, which was undoubtedly a great run, but his advanced numbers were largely due to his offensive contributions. Manu led the league in OWS for that playoff year. Now look at the Drtg of each opponent for the first three rounds:

Denver - 8th Drtg
Seattle - 27th Drtg
Phoenix - 17th Drtg

He played well against Detroit, but I think some context should be provided for that entire playoffs.

Great post as usual, HoopsNY.

[HoopsNY]

He isn't a Manu fan. He is a Kawhi fan using Manu to diminish Duncan. Pippen got thrown into it to get MJ stans to join the Manu hype train as "useful idiots" for that agenda.



You also can't compare bench player stats to a superstars. His "per minute" stats are boosted because he was playing 26 MPG and not 42 MPG like superstars did in those eras. Moreover, we are comparing different rules. Manu did nothing before the handchecking rules change. He would still be a great player, but his 20 PPG wouldn't be 20 PPG under the old rules.

How was Manu perceived relative to the SG of his era? That tells the tale.

Yea I forgot to mention the change of rules that took effect that year, which obviously had a significant impact on many players (Lebron, Kobe, Allen, AI, etc), much less guys like Manu who benefited as well.

[HoopsNY]

Great post as usual, HoopsNY.

I don't think it was a great post, but I appreciate the compliment. I think a bit of context within discussions helps us to analyze situations better.

[Shooter]

It was better than Kawhi's 2014 FMVP run

:lebronamazed:

End scene

[Roundball_Rock]

Yea I forgot to mention the change of rules that took effect that year, which obviously had a significant impact on many players (Lebron, Kobe, Allen, AI, etc), much less guys like Manu who benefited as well.

Yeah, and we know there was a spike initially after the rules changed, then perimeter stats went down as defenses adjusted later in the 00's early 10's and then another jump in scoring etc. in recent years. FWIW, Manu did that in 05' and never was close to that again. He put up 21 PPG again in 11' but he shot 6% worse then.

His playoff BPM in 05'>any BPM Kobe had but that illustrates the problem with comparing a bench player's "per minute" production with a superstar playing 40 MPG.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not to take anything away from Manu and his 2005 run, which was undoubtedly a great run, but his advanced numbers were largely due to his offensive contributions. Manu led the league in OWS for that playoff year. Now look at the Drtg of each opponent for the first three rounds:

Denver - 8th Drtg
Seattle - 27th Drtg
Phoenix - 17th Drtg

He played well against Detroit, but I think some context should be provided for that entire playoffs.

Terrible post. Pistons were one of the greatest defensive teams of all time. When you post, at least make me think.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He isn't a Manu fan. He is a Kawhi fan using Manu to diminish Duncan. Pippen got thrown into it to get MJ stans to join the Manu hype train as "useful idiots" for that agenda.



You also can't compare bench player stats to a superstars. His "per minute" stats are boosted because he was playing 26 MPG and not 42 MPG like superstars did in those eras. Moreover, we are comparing different rules. Manu did nothing before the handchecking rules change. He would still be a great player, but his 20 PPG wouldn't be 20 PPG under the old rules.

How was Manu perceived relative to the SG of his era? That tells the tale.

Manu was starting the majority of the 2nd round, all the conference finals and all the finals. Manu also led all playoffs in VORP, so you can't really say he wasn't on the floor enough.

Wade said that Manu's scouting report said "best SG in the world not named KObe"

[Round Mound]

Ginobili was great but he is no Pippen.

Pippen WITHOUT MJ:

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

And Lead his Team to 55 wins (two wins less than the year prior) WITHOUT MJ.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Ginobilli was great but he is no Pippen.

Pippen WITHOUT MJ:

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

And Lead his Team to 55 wins (two wins less than the year prior) WITHOUT MJ.

Manu started 79 games in 2011 and led spurs to the 2nd ranked offense. That was with old Duncan who averaged 13PPG in playoffs (aka wizards Jordan level).

[Round Mound]

Manu started 79 games in 2011 and led spurs to the 2nd ranked offense. That was with old Duncan who averaged 13PPG in playoffs (aka wizards Jordan level).

How did Manu do WITHOUT DUNCAN or PARKER?

[Roundball_Rock]

2011 was his career high of 30 MPG. For that era, those are 4th option type minutes. Richard Jefferson played more minutes (0.1 MPG) than him that year. If you took any HOFer in eras before this one and limited them to 26-30 MPG, their "per minute" stats would improve notably. That would boost stuff like their BPM. BPM is only good for comparing apples to apples, not 6th men to MVP candidates.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

How did Manu do WITHOUT DUNCAN or PARKER?

Washed up Duncan doesn't count. Players are not ageless. That's like saying what did Luka do with Dirk. Not to that extent but you get the idea.

[Roundball_Rock]

You guys talk alphas and betas and options all the time. Manu was the 3rd and 4th option...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2011 was his career high of 30 MPG. For that era, those are 4th option type minutes. Richard Jefferson played more minutes (0.1 MPG) than him that year. If you took any HOFer in eras before this one and limited them to 26-30 MPG, their "per minute" stats would improve notably. That would boost stuff like their BPM. BPM is only good for comparing apples to apples, not 6th men to MVP candidates.

The carry ability per minute is what makes it ok

Spurs 2011 with Manu: 115 rated offense

Spurs 2011 without Manu: 107

That's a -8 drop! I'm willing to look past the 102 more minutes that Tony Parker played.

[Round Mound]

Washed up Duncan doesn't count. Players are not ageless. That's like saying what did Luka do with Dirk. Not to that extent but you get the idea.

Manu did not proove anything WITHOUT Duncan or PARKER.

He was a 3rd Option a Great One (he also had a young Leonard the best defender at his position) but PIPPEN prooved what he could do WITHOUT their Best Player.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You guys talk alphas and betas and options all the time. Manu was the 3rd and 4th option...

He was their best scorer by combined volume/efficiency in 2005 playoffs. Also led the ENTIRE playoffs in VORP, carried spurs in closeout games. That's an alpha.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu did not proove anything WITHOUT Duncan or PARKER.

He was a 3rd Option a Great One (he also had a young Leonard the best defender at his position) but PIPPEN prooved what he could do WITHOUT their Best Player.

But remember Duncan/Robinson were a 1a and 1b type duo in 1999, there wasn't a clear cut best player.

So from that point of view, Duncan never did anything without Manu. Duncan was 1-8 vs prime Shaq/Kobe in the 2000s before Manu.

[Roundball_Rock]

That is because "alpha" means nothing outside of wolf packs. The whole world agrees Duncan was their best player.


But remember Duncan/Robinson were a 1a and 1b type duo in 1999, there wasn't a clear cut best player.

Duncan was 3rd in MVP, Robinson 12th...they were only close when Duncan was a rookie. Their primes didn't really overlap. Robinson wasn't Robinson by 99'.

[Round Mound]

But remember Duncan/Robinson were a 1a and 1b type duo in 1999, there wasn't a clear cut best player.

So from that point of view, Duncan never did anything without Manu. Duncan was 1-8 vs prime Shaq/Kobe in the 2000s before Manu.

True. Duncan was blessed like very few suprestars FOR ALL OF HIS CAREER. Manu was great and would have started in any other team but to see how good a player is one must put him as 1st option on a bad or average team and lets see how he does. I love Manu but HE WAS NOT IN THE LEVEL OF PIPPEN.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That is because "alpha" means nothing outside of wolf packs. The whole world agrees Duncan was their best player.



Duncan was 3rd in MVP, Robinson 12th...they were only close when Duncan was a rookie. Their primes didn't really overlap. Robinson wasn't Robinson by 99'.

More of that 1st pick hype is all it was. 1999 spurs playoffs best 2 man lineups:

- Johnson/Robinson
- Duncan/Robinson
- Elliot/Robinson
- Ellie/Robinson

anybody who plays with Robinson. Robinson also crushes Duncan in on/off, beats him in BPM. Robinson was definitely not the clear sidekick.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

True. Duncan was blessed like very few suprestars FOR ALL OF HIS CAREER. Manu was great and would have started in any other team but to see how good a player is one must put him as 1st option on a bad or average team and lets see how he does. I love Manu but HE WAS NOT IN THE LEVEL OF PIPPEN.

He won a gold medal as 1st option. Won an NBA ring as best scorer in 2005.

[Roundball_Rock]

We hear 20 PPG for an entire prime is "beta" scoring all the time but now one playoff year (he never could clear 20 over 82 games) at 20.6 PPG is "alpha" scoring. :lol

[rmt]

Some posters take Manu's production, expand it and believe that he could play like that for a whole game instead of appreciating Manu for what he was - a very exciting, skilled player capable of playing at top speed for limited minutes instead of a true franchise player who carried a team night in night out playing minutes in the high 30s for an entire season. They forget how fragile he was physically, how often injured he was, how long he took to get back in rhythm after an injury and how his brain turned to mush when he played longer than he should.

[Roundball_Rock]

Some posters take Manu's production, expand it and believe that he could play like that for a whole game instead of appreciating Manu for what he was - a very exciting, skilled player capable of playing at top speed for limited minutes instead of a true franchise player who carried a team night in night out playing minutes in the high 30s for an entire season. They forget how fragile he was physically, how often injured he was, how long he took to get back in rhythm after an injury and how his brain turned to mush when he played longer than he should.

Yup. Plus his stats were boosted playing against bench players for large chunks of games for most of his career. How many HOF players were bench players for most of their career? Havlicek graduated to starter for most of his career. McHale was about 40/60 bench but he did play 40 MPG at his peak and make first team all-NBA and be top 5 in MVP that year (Manu never came close to those achievements or those minutes).

[tpols]

Everybody knows humans operate within heirarchies just like a wolf pack. Thats why dogs have been our constant evolutionary partners throughout history... we're similar socially. Manu was, at least in the mid 2000s, a big balls alpha wolf. Imagine Pippen leading Argentina to a gold medal. Imagine Pippen scoring on blistering efficiency against one of the greatest defenses ever in the mid 2000s pistons. Pippy poo was MJ's follow along poodle. Yea he was good... damn good player, but there's levels to this shit mates. You cant compare a beta to an alpha.

:pimp:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Some posters take Manu's production, expand it and believe that he could play like that for a whole game instead of appreciating Manu for what he was - a very exciting, skilled player capable of playing at top speed for limited minutes instead of a true franchise player who carried a team night in night out playing minutes in the high 30s for an entire season. They forget how fragile he was physically, how often injured he was, how long he took to get back in rhythm after an injury and how his brain turned to mush when he played longer than he should.

Can you really say "limited minutes" when he's leading the entire playoffs in VORP? Only top 20 GOATS do that (wade was the worst player I think).

Minute wise for regular season, i admit Manu was no Harden. In this era though? When superstars are playing low 30 minutes? Manu would thrive! And you can give him a Kawhi Leonard load management type schedule.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yup. Plus his stats were boosted playing against bench players for large chunks of games for most of his career. How many HOF players were bench players for most of their career? Havlicek graduated to starter for most of his career. McHale was about 40/60 bench but he did play 40 MPG at his peak and make first team all-NBA and be top 5 in MVP that year (Manu never came close to those achievements or those minutes).

I'm looking at his peak in 2005, he started 80% of the playoffs and every conference finals and finals game.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Everybody knows humans operate within heirarchies just like a wolf pack. Thats why dogs have been our constant evolutionary partners throughout history... we're similar socially. Manu was, at least in the mid 2000s, a big balls alpha wolf. Imagine Pippen leading Argentina to a gold medal. Imagine Pippen scoring on blistering efficiency against one of the greatest defenses ever in the mid 2000s pistons. Pippy poo was MJ's follow along poodle. Yea he was good... damn good player, but there's levels to this shit mates. You cant compare a beta to an alpha.

:pimp:

Excellent post. Some guys have IT and some guys don't.

[Roundball_Rock]

Hierarchies: Manu the 3rd and 4th guy on his teams his career, ducking the best players to stat pad against scrubs. An insane argument for Manu. That is alpha. :lol

It is comical how bad the arguments from MJ stains are. Here, Tpols' (1-9ball's #2 beta--you aren't even the beta beta :lol ) dishonesty is on full display here: Manu was 16.8 PPG for his prime--in what, by his own admission, was an easier offensive era, and by his own stated logic, is piss poor scoring. Alpha alpha alpha scoring when you are dishonest enough to switch positions on a dime. Even Iggy scored more than peak Manu. Alpha alpha alpha. :roll:

Props to HBK for suckering in MJ stains to his anti-Duncan crusade. Useful idiots indeed. It is a bit sad, though. You are capable on your own. Why get the worst of the worst to ally with you? I'm waiting for the 1-9ball "Manu>Pippen" thread.

You have an agenda but there is a level of consistency in your posts, unlike trash like tpols.

[tpols]

Excellent post. Some guys have IT and some guys don't.

Yea... just the way shits goes.

2005 Manu was a bad guy... badder and more skilled and fearless than Pippy ever was.

[TheCorporation]

It was better than Kawhi's 2014 FMVP run

And THATS A WRAP

[Roundball_Rock]

Alpha to alpha thread. If you want to speak to alphas, get your alpha, 1-9ball, to speak on your behalf. HBK is an alpha of Kawhi stans. 1-9ball is the leader of MJ stains. You are a useful idiot for these alphas. Notice your hero never quotes you? Even he disdains you. :lol

[Genaro]

The true deserving 2005 FMVP

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Peak Manu >> Peak Pippy

thought everyone knew this

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Alpha to alpha thread. If you want to speak to alphas, get your alpha, 1-9ball, to speak on your behalf. HBK is an alpha of Kawhi stans. 1-9ball is the leader of MJ stains. You are a useful idiot for these alphas. Notice your hero never quotes you? Even he disdains you. :lol

You know bench players play against starters as well? That's how the game works. Manu in his peak year 2005 playoffs was starting and playing more minutes per game then MVP Giannis this year.

Larry Brown is considered a goat level coach by some. Guess who destroyed Brown on the biggest stage in back to back years? Manu.

First, Manu with scrubs on his team took Larry browns gold medal 2004

2nd, Manu with bum ankle Duncan took Larry Brown's back to back nba title 2005

That should tell you something about Manu. He was the alpha of spurs from the day he was drafted until he passed it to Kawhi in 2014.

[Roundball_Rock]

Duncan was the superstar and best player most of the run. The Spurs didn't win before Duncan or after Duncan.

Manu was what he was. HOF but he was top 15 for maybe like two seasons. For most of his career he was the #3 guy. He could play against anyone. That's why he is HOF but his stats were inflated doing the Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford routine against scrubs for large portions of the game. Same reason why L. Williams' per 36 last year equaled Kawhi. Equal scorers then right? Or does Williams not translate well as a wolf.

Coaches won't help your case. Coaches didn't view Manu as a top 5 player ever. Did any coach even have him top 10? Manu couldn't have superstar impact sipping Gatorade and waving a towel for half the game.

Olympics is another poor argument. So he was the best player on a team with who? Chuck Daly had Pippen as the best player on the GOAT team. Not sure how that translates wolf wise but that's impressive
GOAT team and the HOF coach thinks you were the best player on the GOAT team.


Don't be like the MJ stains. Duncan being awesome doesn't diminish Kawhi. Duncan is top 10 AT and Kawhi has a shot to do the same.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan was the superstar and best player most of the run. The Spurs didn't win before Duncan or after Duncan.

Manu was what he was. HOF but he was top 15 for maybe like two seasons. For most of his career he was the #3 guy. He could play against anyone. That's why he is HOF but his stats were inflated doing the Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford routine against scrubs for large portions of the game. Same reason why L. Williams' per 36 last year equaled Kawhi. Equal scorers then right? Or does Williams not translate well as a wolf.

Coaches won't help your case. Coaches didn't view Manu as a top 5 player ever. Did any coach even have him top 10? Manu couldn't have superstar impact sipping Gatorade and waving a towel for half the game.

Olympics is another poor argument. So he was the best player on a team with who? Chuck Daly had Pippen as the best player on the GOAT team. Not sure how that translates wolf wise but that's impressive
GOAT team and the HOF coach thinks you were the best player on the GOAT team.


Don't be like the MJ stains. Duncan being awesome doesn't diminish Kawhi. Duncan is top 10 AT and Kawhi has a shot to do the same.

Lou is putting up 10 or 12 points in a lot of wins for clippers and Kawhi avaerging 30PPG. That's not the same thing as Duncan scoring like 13 more total points over Manu in 2005 finals? With a -17% TS? That's not going to cut it. Duncan had a bum ankle and only had like 2 assists as well. Manu Parker were way better with Horry instead of Duncan in 2005 playoffs. Manu was better then Duncan in 2005 playoffs and all the evidence points to that.

[Roundball_Rock]

You guys go on and on about how Duncan, KG, Pippen are "beta" scorers. All these guys easily scored more than Manu did prime for prime. You can't have it both ways and call a 3rd and 4th guy an alpha via 16.8 PPG, racked up partly against scrubs while superstars play the best. When Duncan got done with KG, then Manu wish feast against second stringers. Manu is the alpha, somehow.

[Carbine]

HBK isn't a Duncan hater though, he has him top 6 all time.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You guys go on and on about how Duncan, KG, Pippen are "beta" scorers. All these guys easily scored more than Manu did prime for prime. You can't have it both ways and call a 3rd and 4th guy an alpha via 16.8 PPG, racked up partly against scrubs while superstars play the best. When Duncan got done with KG, then Manu wish feast against second stringers. Manu is the alpha, somehow.

2003 - Duncan was alpha and Manu was a strong sidekick

2005 - Manu was alpha and Duncan was dragging his bad ankle around

2007 - parker was alpha but Manu was still the closer

2008 - Manu went back to being alpha again and played great vs hornets but was broken down by WCF and Duncan couldn't carry a series without Manu

2009 - Manu gets injured and spurs lose to 6th seed mavs 1-4 hahaha Duncan has tony Parker and still gets dominated without Manu

2011/2012 spurs were elite offenses because Manu as well. So you're under selling his importance to that franchise.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

HBK isn't a Duncan hater though, he has him top 6 all time.

Exactly. I like Duncan and his 1999/2003 runs were great, 2007 was very good. People under sell the importance of manu/kawhi though because they were a disguised Jordan/Pippen duo. People just didn't know it because kawhi was like a senior in college and Manu was a grandpa.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Manu has also outplayed Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Chauncey Billups all in playoff closeout/elimination games. That's ALPHA, I told ya.

[ImKobe]

Roundballrock, ImKobe, 3ball. What do you think?

Manu had a TS of 65%, a BPM of 9.2 and a VORP of 2.2.

Despite playing less minutes, Manu had a higher VORP then Pippen ever did.

Not only those stats, but a 24.8 PER & .260 WS/48, all better than Pippen in any Playoff run, was also more clutch than Pippen in any Playoff run with the 11-point 4th quarter performance in Game 7.

Using the fake Pippen fan/Lebron nutrider logic, '05 Manu is better than any version of Pippen.


Duncan was the superstar and best player most of the run. The Spurs didn't win before Duncan or after Duncan.

Manu was what he was. HOF but he was top 15 for maybe like two seasons. For most of his career he was the #3 guy. He could play against anyone. That's why he is HOF but his stats were inflated doing the Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford routine against scrubs for large portions of the game. Same reason why L. Williams' per 36 last year equaled Kawhi. Equal scorers then right? Or does Williams not translate well as a wolf.

Coaches won't help your case. Coaches didn't view Manu as a top 5 player ever. Did any coach even have him top 10? Manu couldn't have superstar impact sipping Gatorade and waving a towel for half the game.

Olympics is another poor argument. So he was the best player on a team with who? Chuck Daly had Pippen as the best player on the GOAT team. Not sure how that translates wolf wise but that's impressive
GOAT team and the HOF coach thinks you were the best player on the GOAT team.


Don't be like the MJ stains. Duncan being awesome doesn't diminish Kawhi. Duncan is top 10 AT and Kawhi has a shot to do the same.



Look at this loser making a bunch of excuses no one cares about. Where's your stats now? '05 Manu washes any Pippen Playoff run. LOL @ comparing Manu to Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford. He started 15 games and played 33.6 mpg in the '05 Playoffs, started in every single Finals game, and I wonder which scrubs he went off on, since Rip, Chauncey, Tayshaun and Big Ben all played 39+ mpg?

[rmt]

This is a summary of Manu's NBA career from Wikipedia:

4× NBA champion (2003, 2005, 2007, 2014)
2× NBA All-Star (2005, 2011)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011)
NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2008)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2003)

Manu made NO All-NBA team in 2005 - only the All-Star which is generally considered a popularity - see Yao Ming.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is a summary of Manu's NBA career from Wikipedia:

4× NBA champion (2003, 2005, 2007, 2014)
2× NBA All-Star (2005, 2011)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011)
NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2008)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2003)

Manu made NO All-NBA team in 2005 - only the All-Star which is generally considered a popularity - see Yao Ming.

There was an actual Manu stan on ISH in Manu's prime who would say Manu would be as good as the best SG's of the era "if" he played superstar minutes. The rest of ISH laughed.

The people glomming onto Manu here have agendas associated with MJ/Kobe--no one takes this seriously but it is great to see people who judge every player by PPG suddenly hyping as an "alpha" (read: scorer) a guy who literally was never top 20 in scoring in even one season. Yet Duncan is a "beta" scorer to the same people. :lol If the "wolf" talk is applied to Manu, he was more like a "delta."


HBK isn't a Duncan hater though, he has him top 6 all time.

Which means he has Manu top 5 then...


Manu has also outplayed Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Chauncey Billups all in playoff closeout/elimination games

"Alpha" means nothing--you are saying Duncan never outplayed superstars in closeout/elimination games?

[Whoah10115]

So random lol.

He's not a hater of anyone. He just loves Kawhi unabashedly, and annoyingly.

And given he said Kawhi > Jordan, stupidly.

[Whoah10115]

Also, Pippen was not considered the best player in the world in 1996, by anyone outside of Jordan.

And Manu was amazing. He was no 3rd option and he was a better player than Duncan from 2007 on.

But just as Manu wasn't just some very good beneficiary, he never carried Duncan.

I do think Popp overcoached Manu, as Ginobili was too off the wall for the Spurs offense. Along with the natural decline of Robinson and the ascension of Duncan, Duncan's game was the steady type and not as wild or dynamic. And I think Popp has allowed people to think Ginobili was a second or third option, a great 6th man, incapable of doing it for 35min a game (lest we forget or ignore that for three seasons Parker was Spurs' recognized #1 player and never in his career played those numbers).

Manu was a franchise talent. The Spurs had a lot of talent (they won 5 titles didn't they?), well coached and with great character. I think they could have won MORE had Popp unleashed them earlier.

Manu should have ya boy's FMVP in 2014, in addition to Duncan's in 05. Just as Parker was a near consensus (certainly anticipated) FMVP, he would not have won that award two years earlier, with the way everyone appreciated Duncan. Switch years and Ginobili wins in 07, Parker loses in 05. Not because of performance.

But Pippen peaked higher than Manu.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

There was an actual Manu stan on ISH in Manu's prime who would say Manu would be as good as the best SG's of the era "if" he played superstar minutes. The rest of ISH laughed.

The people glomming onto Manu here have agendas associated with MJ/Kobe--no one takes this seriously but it is great to see people who judge every player by PPG suddenly hyping as an "alpha" (read: scorer) a guy who literally was never top 20 in scoring in even one season. Yet Duncan is a "beta" scorer to the same people. :lol If the "wolf" talk is applied to Manu, he was more like a "delta."



Which means he has Manu top 5 then...



"Alpha" means nothing--you are saying Duncan never outplayed superstars in closeout/elimination games?

That's Pippen's argument over Manu? That Duncan was better? I want Pippen's case for best player and you continue to hide behind Duncan. Jordan is like 10x more alpha then Duncan, so if anybody had the advantage there it's Manu.

[rmt]

Also, Pippen was not considered the best player in the world in 1996, by anyone outside of Jordan.

And Manu was amazing. He was no 3rd option and he was a better player than Duncan from 2007 on.

But just as Manu wasn't just some very good beneficiary, he never carried Duncan.

I do think Popp overcoached Manu, as Ginobili was too off the wall for the Spurs offense. Along with the natural decline of Robinson and the ascension of Duncan, Duncan's game was the steady type and not as wild or dynamic. And I think Popp has allowed people to think Ginobili was a second or third option, a great 6th man, incapable of doing it for 35min a game (lest we forget or ignore that for three seasons Parker was Spurs' recognized #1 player and never in his career played those numbers).

Manu was a franchise talent. The Spurs had a lot of talent (they won 5 titles didn't they?), well coached and with great character. I think they could have won MORE had Popp unleashed them earlier.

Manu should have ya boy's FMVP in 2014, in addition to Duncan's in 05. Just as Parker was a near consensus (certainly anticipated) FMVP, he would not have won that award two years earlier, with the way everyone appreciated Duncan. Switch years and Ginobili wins in 07, Parker loses in 05. Not because of performance.

But Pippen peaked higher than Manu.

More revisionist history - Manu was not a better player from 2007 on - except for 2011 and TD's last year:

2007 RS
Duncan 20 pts 10.6 rebs 3.4 asst 2.4 blks 54.6%FG
Manu 16.5 pts 4.4 rebs 3.5 asst 1.5 stl 46.4%FG

2007 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts 11.5 rebs 3.3 asst 3.1 blk 52.1%FG
Manu 16.7 pts 5.5 rebs 3.7 asst 1.7 stl 40.1%FG

2008 RS
Duncan 19.3 pts 11.3 rebs 2.8 asst 1.9 blks 49.7%FG
Manu 19.5 pts 4.8 rebs 4.5 asst 1.5 stl 46%FG

2008 Playoffs
Duncan 20.2 pts 14.5 rebs 3.3 asst 2.1 blks 44.9%FG
Manu 17.8 pts 3.8 rebs 3.9 asst 0.6 stl 42.2%FG

2009 RS
Duncan 19.3 pts 10.7 rebs 3.5 asst 1.7 blks 50.4%FG
Manu 15.5 pts 4.5 rebs 3.6 asst 1.5 stl 45.4%FG

2009 Playoffs
Duncan 19.8 pts 8.0 rebs 3.2 asst 1.2 blks 53.2%FG

2010 RS
Duncan 17.9 pts 10.1 rebs 3.2 asst 1.5 blk 51.8%FG
Manu 16.5 pts 3.8 rebs 4.9 asst 1.4 stl 44.1%FG

2010 Playoffs
Duncan 19 pts 9.9 rebs 2.6 asst 1.7 blk 52%FG
Manu 19.4 pts 3.7 rebs 6 asst 2.6 stl 41.4 %FG

2011 RS
Duncan 13.4 pts 8.9 rebs 2.7 asst 1.9 blk 50%FG
Manu 17.4 pts 3.7 rebs 4.9 asst 1.5 stl 43.3%FG

2011 Playoffs
Duncan 12.7 pts 10.5 rebs 2.7 asst 2.5 blk 47.8%FG
Manu 20.6 pts 4 rebs 4.2 asst 2.6 stl 44.3%FG

2012 RS
Duncan 15.4 pts 9 rebs 2.3 asst 1.5 blk 49.2%FG
Manu 12.9 pts 3.4 rebs 4.4 asst 0.7 stl 52.6%FG

2012 Playoffs
Duncan 17.4 pts 9.4 rebs 2.8 asst 2.1 blk 49.5%FG
Manu 14.4 pts 3.5 rebs 4 asst 0.7 stl 44.8%FG

2013 RS
Duncan 17.8 pts 9.9 rebs 2.7 asst 2.7 blk 50.2%FG
Manu 11.8 pts 3.4 rebs 4.6 asst 1.3 stl 42.5%FG

2013 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 1.9 asst 1.6 blk 47%FG
Manu 11.5 pts 3.7 rebs 5 asst 1.1 stl 39.9%FG

2014 RS
Duncan 15.1 pts 9.7 rebs 3 asst 1.9 blk 49%FG
Manu 12.3 pts 3 rebs 4.3 asst 1 stl 46.9%FG

2014 Playoffs
Duncan 16.3 pts 9.2 rebs 2 asst 1.3 blk 52.3%FG
Manu 14.3 pts 3.3 rebs 4.1 asst 1.6 stl 43.9%FG

2015 RS
Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 3 asst 2 blk 51.2%FG
Manu 10.5 pts 3 rebs 4.2 asst 1 stl 42.6%FG

2015 Playoffs
Duncan 17.9 pts 11.1 rebs 3.3 asst 1.4 blk 58.9%FG
Manu 8 pts 3.4 rebs 4.6 asst 0.6 stl 34.9%FG

2016 RS
Duncan 8.6 pts 7.3 rebs 2.7 asst 1.3 blk 48.8%FG
Manu 9.6 pts 2.5 rebs 3.1 asst 1.1 stl 45.3%FG

2016 Playoffs
Duncan 5.9 pts 4.8 rebs 1.4 ast 1.3 blks 42.3%FG
Manu 6.7 pts 2.7 rebs 2.5 asst 0.8 stl 42.6%FG

[Roundball_Rock]

More revisionist history - Manu was not a better player from 2007 on - except for 2011 and TD's last year:

2007 RS
Duncan 20 pts 10.6 rebs 3.4 asst 2.4 blks 54.6%FG
Manu 16.5 pts 4.4 rebs 3.5 asst 1.5 stl 46.4%FG

2007 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts 11.5 rebs 3.3 asst 3.1 blk 52.1%FG
Manu 16.7 pts 5.5 rebs 3.7 asst 1.7 stl 40.1%FG

2008 RS
Duncan 19.3 pts 11.3 rebs 2.8 asst 1.9 blks 49.7%FG
Manu 19.5 pts 4.8 rebs 4.5 asst 1.5 stl 46%FG

2008 Playoffs
Duncan 20.2 pts 14.5 rebs 3.3 asst 2.1 blks 44.9%FG
Manu 17.8 pts 3.8 rebs 3.9 asst 0.6 stl 42.2%FG

2009 RS
Duncan 19.3 pts 10.7 rebs 3.5 asst 1.7 blks 50.4%FG
Manu 15.5 pts 4.5 rebs 3.6 asst 1.5 stl 45.4%FG

2009 Playoffs
Duncan 19.8 pts 8.0 rebs 3.2 asst 1.2 blks 53.2%FG

2010 RS
Duncan 17.9 pts 10.1 rebs 3.2 asst 1.5 blk 51.8%FG
Manu 16.5 pts 3.8 rebs 4.9 asst 1.4 stl 44.1%FG

2010 Playoffs
Duncan 19 pts 9.9 rebs 2.6 asst 1.7 blk 52%FG
Manu 19.4 pts 3.7 rebs 6 asst 2.6 stl 41.4 %FG

2011 RS
Duncan 13.4 pts 8.9 rebs 2.7 asst 1.9 blk 50%FG
Manu 17.4 pts 3.7 rebs 4.9 asst 1.5 stl 43.3%FG

2011 Playoffs
Duncan 12.7 pts 10.5 rebs 2.7 asst 2.5 blk 47.8%FG
Manu 20.6 pts 4 rebs 4.2 asst 2.6 stl 44.3%FG

2012 RS
Duncan 15.4 pts 9 rebs 2.3 asst 1.5 blk 49.2%FG
Manu 12.9 pts 3.4 rebs 4.4 asst 0.7 stl 52.6%FG

2012 Playoffs
Duncan 17.4 pts 9.4 rebs 2.8 asst 2.1 blk 49.5%FG
Manu 14.4 pts 3.5 rebs 4 asst 0.7 stl 44.8%FG

2013 RS
Duncan 17.8 pts 9.9 rebs 2.7 asst 2.7 blk 50.2%FG
Manu 11.8 pts 3.4 rebs 4.6 asst 1.3 stl 42.5%FG

2013 Playoffs
Duncan 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs 1.9 asst 1.6 blk 47%FG
Manu 11.5 pts 3.7 rebs 5 asst 1.1 stl 39.9%FG

2014 RS
Duncan 15.1 pts 9.7 rebs 3 asst 1.9 blk 49%FG
Manu 12.3 pts 3 rebs 4.3 asst 1 stl 46.9%FG

2014 Playoffs
Duncan 16.3 pts 9.2 rebs 2 asst 1.3 blk 52.3%FG
Manu 14.3 pts 3.3 rebs 4.1 asst 1.6 stl 43.9%FG

2015 RS
Duncan 13.9 pts 9.1 rebs 3 asst 2 blk 51.2%FG
Manu 10.5 pts 3 rebs 4.2 asst 1 stl 42.6%FG

2015 Playoffs
Duncan 17.9 pts 11.1 rebs 3.3 asst 1.4 blk 58.9%FG
Manu 8 pts 3.4 rebs 4.6 asst 0.6 stl 34.9%FG

2016 RS
Duncan 8.6 pts 7.3 rebs 2.7 asst 1.3 blk 48.8%FG
Manu 9.6 pts 2.5 rebs 3.1 asst 1.1 stl 45.3%FG

2016 Playoffs
Duncan 5.9 pts 4.8 rebs 1.4 ast 1.3 blks 42.3%FG
Manu 6.7 pts 2.7 rebs 2.5 asst 0.8 stl 42.6%FG

That doesn't even count defense where Duncan. Duncan was the the guy, arguably the best player of the 2000's. He is top 10 all-time. Ginobili was a third option until Duncan got older. On their 14' title team Ginolbili was the 4th guy.

HBK, this isn't a serious discussion so not going to put more energy into it, especially since I know it is "bank shot" to undermine Duncan from you and for most of the others they are here for the 2-for-1 deal: undermine Duncan while also getting yet another thread to diss Pippen (to prop up former shooting guards).


Also, Pippen was not considered the best player in the world in 1996, by anyone outside of Jordan.

We don't have a list but his point presumably is they were close enough that the comparison was made by some before Pippen got hurt late in the season (and was not the same peak 1994-1996 level after those injuries). Jordan, Bob Whitsitt (GM of Portland/Seattle during that era), Bob Ryan (the famous sportswriter), to name a few and it was frequent enough that when Pippen was interviewed for ESPN's "Sunday Conversation" in the middle of the season Firestone had to ask him about people saying he was MVP. If Manu was asked about being MVP he would laugh since it would be a joke.

Now, can anyone point to a single reputable source who compared prime Ginobili to prime Duncan? Parker was considered better than Ginobili most of the time.

This is ISH where Ginobili>Duncan, Ewing>LeBron, Pippen=Iggy, Davis=Kareem, and Miller=Curry all to further various transparent agendas. Guys who go on and on about scoring (when convenient) are now raving about a player who was never top 20 in scoring at any point in his career. :lol

[ImKobe]

Ginobili was the 3rd option! Only played against 2nd unit scrubs! :kobe: :kobe: :kobe:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

For that ONE playoff run, I might take Manu, but Pippen's had postseason runs with similar effectiveness and better defense.

Outside of that I'm rolling w/ No Tippin Pippen. First 3-peat thru his 96 and 97 run.