Raptors exposed without Kawhi

[HBK_Kliq_2]

3-8 playoff record from 2018-2020 when playing past the 1st round.

- 4th quarter meltdowns

- Siakam playing like a role player

- Gasol can barely run

Bunch of chokers, washed up, overrated sack of shits.

[And1AllDay]

You poached away Kawhi and Danny Green what did you expect i mean ya know, Kawhi has to have some impact right

[NBAGOAT]

gasol just aged. that has nothing to with kawhi :oldlol:

[Wally450]

Team loses superstar, team regresses. Astonishing news there.

How is losing in the final seconds of a game 7 being exposed.

[Stanley Kobrick]

to be fair 2019 Raptors were one shot away from being sent home by the Sixers last year. that game 7 reminded me a lot like this game tonight

[red1]

OP suck my nuts fakkit - I was waiting for this from you


kawhi has never won shit without a ton of help.


I have a feeling he might miss ibaka when he watches AD push harrell and zubac's shit in just a few days :oldlol:

[light]

The Raptors made it to game 7 in the 2nd round without Kawhi.

Didnt they do the same thing last year with Kawhi? Except they won that game 7.

That means Kawhi only lifted the Raptors 4 or 5 places, which is not that big of a boost relative to what others superstars have done.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You poached away Kawhi and Danny Green what did you expect i mean ya know, Kawhi has to have some impact right

Green's shooting made them worse, Fred van vleet averaged 2PPG in 2nd round, they also added OG. Still suck ass.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The Raptors made it to game 7 in the 2nd round without Kawhi.

Didnt they do the same thing last year with Kawhi? Except they won that game 7.

That means Kawhi only lifted the Raptors 4 or 5 places, which is not that big of a boost relative to what others superstars have done.

They actually won the game 7 though. If you lose it, that's not the same thing as winning. Damn boy everybody know that.

[Roundball_Rock]

to be fair 2019 Raptors were one shot away from being sent home by the Sixers last year. that game 7 reminded me a lot like this game tonight

Yup. Differences in playoff series often are subtle given the small sample sizes. Yet you know we will forever hear they went from champs to losing in the second round when the actual shift in performance was basically one shot going the other way.

After losing the best player in the world the Raptors were in the series and game 7 to the very end. If Lowry doesn't get fouled out and he is taking that shot instead of the ridiculous FVV possession they could have been en route to the finals. Not exactly Miami after LeBron or even OKC after KD (or to be fair, San Antonio without Kawhi).

[red1]

raptors without kawhi - 50+win team and a 50+win percentage and second round playoffs every year



thats the definition of a good supporting cast :oldlol:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

to be fair 2019 Raptors were one shot away from being sent home by the Sixers last year. that game 7 reminded me a lot like this game tonight

16 points in the 4th quarter from the entire raptors team tonight hahahah you do realize that Kawhi scored nearly that much by himself in game 7 vs 76ers?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yup. Differences in playoff series often are subtle given the small sample sizes. Yet you know we will forever hear they went from champs to losing in the second round when the actual shift in performance was basically one shot going the other way.

After losing the best player in the world the Raptors were in the series and game 7 to the very end. If Lowry doesn't get fouled out and he is taking that shot instead of the ridiculous FVV possession they could have been en route to the finals. Not exactly Miami after LeBron or even OKC after KD (or to be fair, San Antonio without Kawhi).

OG made the 0.5 shot though and he wasn't even on Kawhi's team. Siakam averaged like 14 points on 45% TS hahahha and Fred van vleet who averaged 2PPG for kawhi? He was in a star role. They still couldn't get the job done though, they are incapable of beating any good teams.

[FireDavidKahn]

Raptors with Kawhi: 2nd seed in the eastern conference and went to a game 7 in the semis (and barely won)

Raptors without Kawhi: finished 2nd seed in the eastern conference and went to a game 7 in the semis (and barely lost)

the difference between the two? A LUCKY SHOT

:yaohappy:

[Roundball_Rock]

raptors without kawhi - 50+win team and a 50+win percentage and second round playoffs every year



thats the definition of a good supporting cast :oldlol:

These people act like teams lose superstars and perform at that high a level routinely. Its happened only twice in 70+ years. :lol

We had a lengthy thread months ago discussing this. One of the shining examples provided as another team doing great without its best player was the Thunder going from a 59 win pace and Game 7 of the WCF with KD to 47 wins and a first round loss. This was cited as an amazing example of a team remaining solid...compare that to what Toronto did without Kawhi.

[ThatCoolKid]

gasol just aged. that has nothing to with kawhi :oldlol:

This was honestly the biggest difference in the team I noticed this year. Gasol went from an elite piece to complete unplayable trash in the span of 1 year. Could barely recognize him out there. Theis made him look silly.

[Real Men Wear Green]

They got to Game 7. Lowry established himself forever as a warrior. Overall team play as hard as any team in the league. Siakam was exposed but the overall team? OP's take is idiotic.

[GrayGoat]

Raptors as a team were not exposed however Siakam was in a way exposed as not a franchise player

[BigtimeNBAFan]

They actually proved the opposite this year. Many people had them battling just to get into the playoffs. They had a great year and were a few plays away from the conference finals where they would have been favored over Miami. It showed Kawhi had a much better supporting cast than many believed. He was good no doubt, but he hardly was "carrying them."

[Roundball_Rock]

Agree that Siakam got exposed (his agent already got him paid, though :oldlol: ) but the team as a whole was impressive. They lost Kawhi without getting anything notable to replace him (OG was the "replacement" and he came in house), Siakam disappeared and yet they came within a whisker of the ECF anyway.

Lowry was HOF already most likely but any doubt that remained was erased this year.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Agree that Siakam got exposed (his agent already got him paid, though :oldlol: ) but the team as a whole was impressive. They lost Kawhi without getting anything notable to replace him (OG was the "replacement" and he came in house), Siakam disappeared and yet they came within a whisker of the ECF anyway.

Lowry was HOF already most likely but any doubt that remained was erased this year.

Lowry shot 33% FG and 1/6 from three. Lowry admitted that Kawhi was the leader. Without Kawhi, he's just not clutch.

OG was the one that made the game winner and that's the main point you have to look at. None of the guys on Kawhi's could of made a 0.5 game winner. If you take away that 0.5 game winner, its a 3-0 series.

[And1AllDay]

If one blocked shot away from the ECF is "exposed" then what the **** are the 14th seed Cavs?

[Roundball_Rock]

Lowry is the reason there was a Game 7.

The NBA has been around since the late 40's. People can find only one team comparable to what the Raptors did. 70+ years. Only one other team even in the ballpark of what they did. No amount of spin can erase how special their season was.

Kawhi still isn't out the second round as of now. Before we rag on his former teammates, let's see the final line for his current teammates. These guys won a chip with him. Let's see how his new crew does. They were last seen blowing a huge lead.

[BurningHammer]

Raptors as a team were not exposed however Siakam was in a way exposed as not a franchise player

Yet.

He still has to prove his worth after getting paid big though.

[Spurs m8]

Lowry shot 33% FG and 1/6 from three. Lowry admitted that Kawhi was the leader. Without Kawhi, he's just not clutch.

OG was the one that made the game winner and that's the main point you have to look at. None of the guys on Kawhi's could of made a 0.5 game winner. If you take away that 0.5 game winner, its a 3-0 series.

Exactly.

Lowrys elimination game record is beyond horrid...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If one blocked shot away from the ECF is "exposed" then what the **** are the 14th seed Cavs?

.500 hawks took Celtics to 7 games in 2008. That's further then Kobe did huh? Who cares. Lowry and Siakam are still choking pieces of trash who were carried by Kawhi time and time again.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lowry is the reason there was a Game 7.

The NBA has been around since the late 40's. People can find only one team comparable to what the Raptors did. 70+ years. Only one other team even in the ballpark of what they did. No amount of spin can erase how special their season was.

Kawhi still isn't out the second round as of now. Before we rag on his former teammates, let's see the final line for his current teammates. These guys won a chip with him. Let's see how his new crew does. They were last seen blowing a huge lead.

The percentages of coming back from 1-3 vs a GOAT level player like Kawhi is like 0.6%

I think I will take my chances.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Exactly.

Lowrys elimination game record is beyond horrid...

He didn't do anything in a game 7 tonight and people are calling him a hall of famer for that performance? Hahahah

[Axe]

It still leaves me highly wondering why op hates the raptors so much

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It still leaves me highly wondering why op hates the raptors so much

Not exactly rocket science, the OP is a Kawhi fanatic.

[SouBeachTalents]

Not exactly rocket science, the OP is a Kawhi fanatic.
:oldlol:

[Axe]

Not exactly rocket science, the OP is a Kawhi fanatic.
Duh, without a doubt lmao. But that doesn't explain why he's loathing on the former team of the player he's stanning for.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Duh, without a doubt lmao. But that doesn't explain why he's loathing on the former team of the player he's stanning for.

Sure it does. :oldlol:

Every post of his is about Kawhi as a "solo act" who carries. Diminishing their favorite players' help is textbook fanboy talk.

[Axe]

Sure it does. :oldlol:

Every post of his is about Kawhi as a "solo act" who carries. Diminishing their favorite players' help is textbook fanboy talk.
I guess that makes sense. He's also doing the same thing about the spurs and his former teammates there but to a lesser extent.

[DMAVS41]

So, just to be clear...

Siakam plays the worst basketball of his life...a series of 15/7/3 43% TS...87 ortg...and the Raptors, without Leonard, still are a couple of bounces away from making the conference finals...after winning at close to a 60 win pace without Leonard the last 2 years...

And the conclusion is that they were exposed? I just want to understand how dumb people actually are capable of being.

[tpols]

So, just to be clear...

Siakam plays the worst basketball of his life...a series of 15/7/3 43% TS...87 ortg...and the Raptors, without Leonard, still are a couple of bounces away from making the conference finals...after winning at close to a 60 win pace without Leonard the last 2 years...

And the conclusion is that they were exposed? I just want to understand how dumb people actually are capable of being.

Just like the 1994 bulls they were a miracle last second shot away from 0-3 and a likely sweep. That shot turned the momentum of the series. From insta champs to 2nd round sweep? That's a big difference. This is what the Craptors did before leonard as well...always underachieve relative to their seed.

[StrongLurk]

OP is right...but it's an obvious conclusion. I remember when Lebron left the Cavs twice and the Cavs ended up as a bottom three team both times.

If a superstar leaves a team...that team is going to get worse 99% of the time.

[And1AllDay]

.500 hawks took Celtics to 7 games in 2008. That's further then Kobe did huh? Who cares. Lowry and Siakam are still choking pieces of trash who were carried by Kawhi time and time again.
Kobe beat Boston in 2010 numbnuts for brains

[Roundball_Rock]

Not exactly rocket science, the OP is a Kawhi fanatic.


Sure it does. :oldlol:

Every post of his is about Kawhi as a "solo act" who carries. Diminishing their favorite players' help is textbook fanboy talk.

Yup, and if anyone has been on ISH for more than 2-3 days they have seen the same dynamic play out 24/7 with MJ stans at least since I have been here (since 2009). Isn't that the core of the daily message we get from 1-9ball, his two betas IMKobe and tpols, goozeman, Coach/Sammy "D" and his multiple accounts, Indian_guy, and the rest of the clown car, etc.? We practically should sticky 1-9ball's daily "only MJ could win with these bums" thread.

HBK should learn from this long precedent: people don't buy it. We all saw what the Raptors did.


So, just to be clear...

Siakam plays the worst basketball of his life...a series of 15/7/3 43% TS...87 ortg...and the Raptors, without Leonard, still are a couple of bounces away from making the conference finals...after winning at close to a 60 win pace without Leonard the last 2 years...

And the conclusion is that they were exposed? I just want to understand how dumb people actually are capable of being.

Exactly. Some of it is a lack of history, some of it hypocrisy, the core is an agenda.

Point 1 (history): The people who keep saying this don't grasp there literally are only two teams in 70+ years of basketball to remain elite losing a superstar of MJ's or even Kawhi's level. In both cases neither replaced them, the Bulls were deprived of that opportunity by how late MJ retired (they could have signed Kendall Gill to be their second option otherwise) and the Raptors by choice, relying on internal growth.

Point 2( hypocrisy): The same people who say these teams were one man teams will say they were "exposed" because they failed to win a chip w/out their formerly best player. This makes bi sense. If these are one man teams, the logical question should be why they went this far instead of going 25-57.

Point 3 (agenda): This has been covered but it is worth noting again. Let's see how Kawhi's one fan plays it out but we have seen a comical trend with MJ stans, who are all over the place. On the one hand the 90's Knicks were this great team that required the GOAT to beat because they were so awesome, the 90's Knicks are the prime example of how tough the 90's comp was, etc. On the other hand, the 90's Bulls were a bunch of scrubs if you take MJ off the team. Yet the scrubs came within one foul call of beating the awesome Knicks. We have never gotten a real answer on how these two narratives square. The closest is MJ stans will say the 94' Bulls were the best roster in the league and therefore should have won the chip (these same players are scrubs from 1988-1993, 1995-1998 :lol ). The same team that had no viable second option when MJ played, suddenly had great 2nd, 3rd, 4th options overnight with MJ gone. I.e., Grant sucked as a #3 but was awesome as a #2 (#2 best player--they had no real 2nd scorer, BJ actually led them in scoring when Pippen was out--you couldn't run O through Grant). BJ sucked as a #4, but was awesome as a #3. Kukoc was great as a #4 rookie but sucked as a prime #3. Etc.

I am waiting to hear how the 19' Raptors were Kawhi and scrubs but how the 20' Raptors were the most stacked team in the NBA (the same core roster). :oldlol:

Edit: a watershed moment, the first of 10,000 "Siakam sucked" threads we will have to endure forevermore. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484406-Was-Siakam-the-worst-2nd-option-scorer-ever-for-a-title-team

[DMAVS41]

Just like the 1994 bulls they were a miracle last second shot away from 0-3 and a likely sweep. That shot turned the momentum of the series. From insta champs to 2nd round sweep? That's a big difference. This is what the Craptors did before leonard as well...always underachieve relative to their seed.

So, just to be clear.

This Raptors team underachieved by winning at a near 60 win pace without Leonard and by not advancing to the conference finals.

Ok, then how on earth are you calling them the Craptors if your expectation for them is better than 60 wins and a conference finals birth? Please explain.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ok, then how on earth are you calling them the Craptors if your expectation for them is better than 60 wins and a conference finals birth? Please explain.

:lol

Exactly. He is one of the clown car people who do the same thing with the 94' Bulls.

*The Bulls were a one man team. That one man left right before the season started.
*The Knicks were a great team that MJ alone barely beat in 92' and 93'. The Knicks were led by a flawless HOF player Ewing (how MJ stans like 1-9ball Junior II/aka ttrols present him--ttrols thinks Ewing>LeBron).
*The conclusion from the above from him, 1-9ball Junior II is=the Bulls are trash, got exposed, etc. for narrowly losing (due to 1 foul call, which meant they likely were 1 call away from the finals since they owned the Pacers) to that same team.

Same thing here. So they are the Craptors but the expectation is title or bust?

These people will say anything at any given second to further their agenda. Even nonsense.

Meanwhile the same people will denigrate LeBron (MJ stains and Kawhi's 1 fan) whose teams went 37-45, 19-63 (twice) without him. :oldlol:

[tpols]

So, just to be clear.

This Raptors team underachieved by winning at a near 60 win pace without Leonard and by not advancing to the conference finals.

Ok, then how on earth are you calling them the Craptors if your expectation for them is better than 60 wins and a conference finals birth? Please explain.

Yes a 60 win 2 seed losing in the 2nd round is an underachievement. Thats what they used to always do. Get high 1-2 seeds and lose early (or big) in the playoffs. Kawhi was the only one capable of allowing them to overachieve, rather than under. And not flounder in the playoffs. They were a once in 16 years derek fisher walk off shot away from being down 0-3 and likely swept at that point.

[And1AllDay]

94 Bulls w/o MJ = Lose in 6, ECSF

20 Raptors w/o Kawhi = Lose in 7, ECSF

12, 13, 14 Cavs w/o LeBron (WITH Kyrie) = Lottery

[DMAVS41]

Yes a 60 win 2 seed losing in the 2nd round is an underachievement. Thats what they used to always do. Get high 1-2 seeds and lose early (or big) in the playoffs. Kawhi was the only one capable of allowing them to overachieve, rather than under. And not flounder in the playoffs. They were a once in 16 years derek fisher walk off shot away from being down 0-3 and likely swept at that point.

Ok.

So, I disagree, but lets say I agree.

That would make Leonard's supporting cast easily one of the best ever. He can leave the team...not be replaced...and said team is still expected to win 60 and make the conference finals.

How on earth were they exposed if that is their expectations? And, please list all the other teams in NBA history that have lost an all-time great like Leonard...not replaced him...and did as well as the Raptors did this year. Must be a lot if they are nothing of note.

[Roundball_Rock]

That would make Leonard's supporting cast easily one of the best ever. He can leave the team...not be replaced...and said team is still expected to win 60 and make the conference finals.

How on earth were they exposed if that is their expectations? And, please list all the other teams in NBA history that have lost an all-time great like Leonard...not replaced him...and did as well as the Raptors did this year. Must be a lot if they are nothing of note.

Great points exposing that terrible and hypocritical claims being made. It makes no sense. It is purely agenda driven but 1-9ball Junior II is too dishonest to admit it. His pathetic attempts to try to have it both ways will provide us entertainment, though. :oldlol:


94 Bulls w/o MJ = Lose in 6, ECSF

20 Raptors w/o Kawhi = Lose in 7, ECSF

12, 13, 14 Cavs w/o LeBron (WITH Kyrie) = Lottery

Bulls got to Game 7 too that went to the end. Ewing (who tpols thinks was better than LeBron) got locked down by Cartwright--literally 0 points in the first half--but he got into foul trouble and he feasted on Longley in the second half and the Knicks squeaked by.

The only difference is the Bulls outscored the Knicks in the series (the only team to do that that year--the Pacers and Rockets didn't nor did the Nets) while the Raptors were outscored by 5.

[Hey Yo]

.500 hawks took Celtics to 7 games in 2008. That's further then Kobe did huh? Who cares. Lowry and Siakam are still choking pieces of trash who were carried by Kawhi time and time again.
He's only been a 2yr starter. :oldlol:

Your fake schtick is so easy to spot.

[Axe]

Yup, and if anyone has been on ISH for more than 2-3 days they have seen the same dynamic play out 24/7 with MJ stans at least since I have been here (since 2009). Isn't that the core of the daily message we get from 1-9ball, his two betas IMKobe and tpols, goozeman, Coach/Sammy "D" and his multiple accounts, Indian_guy, and the rest of the clown car, etc.? We practically should sticky 1-9ball's daily "only MJ could win with these bums" thread.

HBK should learn from this long precedent: people don't buy it. We all saw what the Raptors did.



Exactly. Some of it is a lack of history, some of it hypocrisy, the core is an agenda.

Point 1 (history): The people who keep saying this don't grasp there literally are only two teams in 70+ years of basketball to remain elite losing a superstar of MJ's or even Kawhi's level. In both cases neither replaced them, the Bulls were deprived of that opportunity by how late MJ retired (they could have signed Kendall Gill to be their second option otherwise) and the Raptors by choice, relying on internal growth.

Point 2( hypocrisy): The same people who say these teams were one man teams will say they were "exposed" because they failed to win a chip w/out their formerly best player. This makes bi sense. If these are one man teams, the logical question should be why they went this far instead of going 25-57.

Point 3 (agenda): This has been covered but it is worth noting again. Let's see how Kawhi's one fan plays it out but we have seen a comical trend with MJ stans, who are all over the place. On the one hand the 90's Knicks were this great team that required the GOAT to beat because they were so awesome, the 90's Knicks are the prime example of how tough the 90's comp was, etc. On the other hand, the 90's Bulls were a bunch of scrubs if you take MJ off the team. Yet the scrubs came within one foul call of beating the awesome Knicks. We have never gotten a real answer on how these two narratives square. The closest is MJ stans will say the 94' Bulls were the best roster in the league and therefore should have won the chip (these same players are scrubs from 1988-1993, 1995-1998 :lol ). The same team that had no viable second option when MJ played, suddenly had great 2nd, 3rd, 4th options overnight with MJ gone. I.e., Grant sucked as a #3 but was awesome as a #2 (#2 best player--they had no real 2nd scorer, BJ actually led them in scoring when Pippen was out--you couldn't run O through Grant). BJ sucked as a #4, but was awesome as a #3. Kukoc was great as a #4 rookie but sucked as a prime #3. Etc.

I am waiting to hear how the 19' Raptors were Kawhi and scrubs but how the 20' Raptors were the most stacked team in the NBA (the same core roster). :oldlol:

Edit: a watershed moment, the first of 10,000 "Siakam sucked" threads we will have to endure forevermore. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484406-Was-Siakam-the-worst-2nd-option-scorer-ever-for-a-title-team
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/8a/19/f68a1925fe5926eccb029292c952c1f4.gif

[tpols]

That would make Leonard's supporting cast easily one of the best ever.


That's just preposterous. Superstars didn't used to bail on their teams in the middle of their primes for most of the league's history. And team hop incessantly around, so we don't have a big sample size for that. There are a ton of casts that are better support than lowry/siakam/old Ibaka/old Gasol.

Shaq/Fox/Fisher/Horry
Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott
Dumars/Aguirre/Rodman/Lambier
McHale/Parish/DJ/Ainge
Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton/Prince
Pierce/Ray/Rondo/tony allen
Pau/Odom/Artest/Fisher/Bynum
Wade/Bosh/Allen/Birdman/Mike Miller/Battier
Durant/Klay/Iggy/Dray

and many many more.

They dont have all time talent at all, they were pretty good help but nothing historical at all talent wise. Theyre a well run organization that generally overachieves in the regular season due to good teamwork and discipline, and loses bad in the playoffs due to lack of true talent.

[DMAVS41]

That's just preposterous. Superstars didn't used to bail on their teams in the middle of their primes for most of the league's history. And team hop incessantly around, so we don't have a big sample size for that. There are a ton of casts that are better support than lowry/siakam/old Ibaka/old Gasol.

Shaq/Fox/Fisher/Horry
Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott
Dumars/Aguirre/Rodman/Lambier
McHale/Parish/DJ/Ainge
Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton/Prince
Pierce/Ray/Rondo/tony allen
Pau/Odom/Artest/Fisher/Bynum
Wade/Bosh/Allen/Birdman/Mike Miller/Battier
Durant/Klay/Iggy/Dray

and many many more.

They dont have all time talent at all, they were pretty good help but nothing historical at all talent wise. Theyre a well run organization that generally overachieves in the regular season due to good teamwork and discipline, and loses bad in the playoffs due to lack of true talent.

Oh...so then maybe your expectations you have the Raptors aren't actually realistic and you are over-rating them for some agenda you have.

Interesting...because I can assure you that you'd never, in a million ****ing years, claim that Kobe's help in 09 and 10 was so good that it should have been expected to win 60 and make the conference finals without him.

[Axe]

That's just preposterous. Superstars didn't used to bail on their teams in the middle of their primes for most of the league's history. And team hop incessantly around, so we don't have a big sample size for that. There are a ton of casts that are better support than lowry/siakam/old Ibaka/old Gasol.

Shaq/Fox/Fisher/Horry
Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott
Dumars/Aguirre/Rodman/Lambier
McHale/Parish/DJ/Ainge
Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton/Prince
Pierce/Ray/Rondo/tony allen
Pau/Odom/Artest/Fisher/Bynum
Wade/Bosh/Allen/Birdman/Mike Miller/Battier
Durant/Klay/Iggy/Dray

and many many more.

They dont have all time talent at all, they were pretty good help but nothing historical at all talent wise. Theyre a well run organization that generally overachieves in the regular season due to good teamwork and discipline, and loses bad in the playoffs due to lack of true talent.
This dude also seething over the 2019 raptors only because he saw the 2019 warriors succumbing to them in the finals last year.

[ArbitraryWater]

Only an ECSF G7 team without Kawhi (and Green), one play away from the ECF, winning more RS games than they did with him.

Very exposed.

[ArbitraryWater]

That's just preposterous. Superstars didn't used to bail on their teams in the middle of their primes for most of the league's history. And team hop incessantly around, so we don't have a big sample size for that. There are a ton of casts that are better support than lowry/siakam/old Ibaka/old Gasol.

Shaq/Fox/Fisher/Horry
Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott
Dumars/Aguirre/Rodman/Lambier
McHale/Parish/DJ/Ainge
Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton/Prince
Pierce/Ray/Rondo/tony allen
Pau/Odom/Artest/Fisher/Bynum
Wade/Bosh/Allen/Birdman/Mike Miller/Battier
Durant/Klay/Iggy/Dray

and many many more.

They dont have all time talent at all, they were pretty good help but nothing historical at all talent wise. Theyre a well run organization that generally overachieves in the regular season due to good teamwork and discipline, and loses bad in the playoffs due to lack of true talent.

correct me if im wrong, but lowry/siakam/van vleet/gasol/ibaka is a supporting cast of 4 all stars within the last or next couple years + ibaka

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh...so then maybe your expectations you have the Raptors aren't actually realistic and you are over-rating them for some agenda you have.

Yup. :lol

No amount of deception and spin can change these simple facts: the Raptors lost peak Kawhi, replaced him with nothing, and we all watched the game last night down to the end with the Raptors having a shot to make the ECF. It isn't like they got blown out in Game 7. They were in it the entire game. Moreover, there are only two teams in 70+ years of NBA basketball of have done anything like this. That is why they keep getting compared to one team from 26 years ago: that literally is the only outer comp in 70+ years.

As you said, if it was easy a lot of teams would have done it.

It is absurd that they are a one man team per the agenda yet the expectation is the one man team sans that one man team should be in the finals or win the chip. If the Raptors were a one man team, they should have been a bottom feeder, not a contender. The expectation should have been being 12th place team, not the 2 seed. Yet the expectation is 60+ and a chip?


Superstars didn't used to bail on their teams.

Injuries you imbecile. Health (HIV for Magic). Free agency. Retirement (e.g., the Celtics without Russell or Lakers without Wilt--both were MVP caliber superstars still). It happened all the time. Phil Jackson reviewed that history--which you claimed does not exist--and said--to the players--the 57 win Bulls would be lucky to go 42-40 as a best-case scenario. He assumed MJ was worth about 15 wins because that is what happened in every single case he looked at. He said 42-40 would be a great outcome.


Shaq/Fox/Fisher/Horry
Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott
Dumars/Aguirre/Rodman/Lambier
McHale/Parish/DJ/Ainge
Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton/Prince
Pierce/Ray/Rondo/tony allen
Pau/Odom/Artest/Fisher/Bynum
Wade/Bosh/Allen/Birdman/Mike Miller/Battier
Durant/Klay/Iggy/Dray


Your examples are piss poor.

Shaq left the Lakers. Shaq left the Magic. What happened? They were 60 and 58 win teams his final year. Lakers in the finals (still had prime Kobe), Magic in the ECF (still had prime Penny). They signed Rony Seiklay to replace him (I know you don't know who that is but that is a top 10 player at his position who was 17/10 a his peak).
Magic left the Lakers due to HIV. What happened? 58 wins and the finals his final year. Your big game James Worthy was still there as were Scott, Divac.
Bird missed the 89' season (76 games missed). What happened? 57 wins and the ECF the prior year. McHale, Parish, DJ were all their and they replaced Bird with Reggie Lewis, a future all-star.
LeBron left the Heat. What happened? 54 wins and the finals his final year. Wade, Bosh there and they added Whiteside and Dragic (trade deadline)
Durant left the Thunder. What happened? 55 wins (59 win pace with KD) and Game 7 of the WCF his last year.

On and on and on. Your own selected examples illustrate how special what the Raptors did is.

Cut the BS. Everything with you revolves around LeBron. Just admit you are being a comical hypocrite--Craptors but 60 wins and Game 7 of the ECSF is a failure for a crap team!--all because boosting Kawhi helps you in your crusade against LeBron.

[tontoz]

Raps had the 2nd best record in the league and lost in game 7of the second round. That is not getting exposed.


Getting exposed would have been a losing record/missing the playoffs/getting swept in the first round.

[tpols]

Oh...so then maybe your expectations you have the Raptors aren't actually realistic and you are over-rating them for some agenda you have.

Interesting...because I can assure you that you'd never, in a million ****ing years, claim that Kobe's help in 09 and 10 was so good that it should have been expected to win 60 and make the conference finals without him.

Why would I overrate them? They are what they are... not historical help by any means like you said. I listed a lot of teams with all time great help but there are quite a few teams even today that have more help than them. Shit... the clippers are more help than them and they're nothing special all time. You cant possibly say having siakam, who I liked watching last year, is "historical" help or lowry, when other players have played with Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Magic, Kareem, McHale, Durant, Curry, Duncan, Clyde etc. It's comical. Too many true Superstars have played with each other to say that is some great help.

[insidious301]

Is "tpol" forreal? If you told a superstar his team could go to G7 of the semis, without him, he would tell you his help is damn good. Toronto didn't replace Kawhi with anyone of note, and they still exceeded expectation.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yup. :lol

No amount of deception and spin can change these simple facts: the Raptors lost peak Kawhi, replaced him with nothing, and we all watched the game last night down to the end with the Raptors having a shot to make the ECF. It isn't like they got blown out in Game 7. They were in it the entire game. Moreover, there are only two teams in 70+ years of NBA basketball of have done anything like this. That is why they keep getting compared to one team from 26 years ago: that literally is the only outer comp in 70+ years.

As you said, if it was easy a lot of teams would have done it.

It is absurd that they are a one man team per the agenda yet the expectation is the one man team sans that one man team should be in the finals or win the chip. If the Raptors were a one man team, they should have been a bottom feeder, not a contender. The expectation should have been being 12th place team, not the 2 seed. Yet the expectation is 60+ and a chip?



Injuries you imbecile. Health (HIV for Magic). Free agency. Retirement (e.g., the Celtics without Russell or Lakers without Wilt--both were MVP caliber superstars still). It happened all the time. Phil Jackson reviewed that history--which you claimed does not exist--and said--to the players--the 57 win Bulls would be lucky to go 42-40 as a best-case scenario. He assumed MJ was worth about 15 wins because that is what happened in every single case he looked at. He said 42-40 would be a great outcome.



Your examples are piss poor.

Shaq left the Lakers. Shaq left the Magic. What happened? They were 60 and 58 win teams his final year. Lakers in the finals (still had prime Kobe), Magic in the ECF (still had prime Penny). They signed Rony Seiklay to replace him (I know you don't know who that is but that is a top 10 player at his position who was 17/10 a his peak).
Magic left the Lakers due to HIV. What happened? 58 wins and the finals his final year. Your big game James Worthy was still there as were Scott, Divac.
Bird missed the 89' season (76 games missed). What happened? 57 wins and the ECF the prior year. McHale, Parish, DJ were all their and they replaced Bird with Reggie Lewis, a future all-star.
LeBron left the Heat. What happened? 54 wins and the finals his final year. Wade, Bosh there and they added Whiteside and Dragic (trade deadline)
Durant left the Thunder. What happened? 55 wins (59 win pace with KD) and Game 7 of the WCF his last year.

On and on and on. Your own selected examples illustrate how special what the Raptors did is.

Cut the BS. Everything with you revolves around LeBron. Just admit you are being a comical hypocrite--Craptors but 60 wins and Game 7 of the ECSF is a failure for a crap team!--all because boosting Kawhi helps you in your crusade against LeBron.

All Lakers did was replace Shaq with Pau Gasol, add a Siakam level player (Odom). That resulted in back to back championships and 2 wins away from a 3peat.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Is "tpol" forreal? If you told a superstar his team could go to G7 of the semis, without him, he would tell you his help is damn good. Toronto didn't replace Kawhi with anyone of note, and they still exceeded expectation.

They were a shot away from down 0-3 and the guy who made the shot for them was OG. Pushing to game 7 is cute and all but they still lost. 2008 hawks also pushed Celtics to 7.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He's only been a 2yr starter. :oldlol:

Your fake schtick is so easy to spot.

Negative BPM in playoffs every year of his career besides when he was with Kawin.

[DMAVS41]

Why would I overrate them? They are what they are... not historical help by any means like you said. I listed a lot of teams with all time great help but there are quite a few teams even today that have more help than them. Shit... the clippers are more help than them and they're nothing special all time. You cant possibly say having siakam, who I liked watching last year, is "historical" help or lowry, when other players have played with Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Magic, Kareem, McHale, Durant, Curry, Duncan, Clyde etc. It's comical. Too many true Superstars have played with each other to say that is some great help.

You aren't understanding again...

I'm not saying they are actually one of the best supporting casts ever. I'm saying that if the expectations for them really were 60 plus wins and a for sure ECF birth...anything less would be underachieving...then they absolutely are one of the best supporting casts ever. Most of the teams you listed would not be known as underachieving for doing what this Raptors team did. So what you are saying doesn't make sense. If their expectations are that high...they are an all-time great supporting cast. You can't have it both ways....you can't set that as the bar and then say they suck. Makes no sense.

Also, we both know that you'd never have those expectations for the 09 and 10 Lakers outside of Kobe. So why even continue pretending this BS?

You don't even know what you are claiming at this point.

Again, you said this team underachieved this year. The only way for that to be true is if they are a title caliber team.

What is so hard for you to understand?

[BigtimeNBAFan]

Raps had the 2nd best record in the league and lost in game 7of the second round. That is not getting exposed.


Getting exposed would have been a losing record/missing the playoffs/getting swept in the first round.

Yeah the Raptors did better than anyone expected them to do and had the world not changed with Covid they probably make the ECF since homecourt advantage probably gets them another game against Boston.

What the Raptors did this year was show they were a worthy champion with a great team. Kawhi is great, but he wasn't carrying scrubs. He was the best player on a great team that went 17-5 without him and was great after he left.

[insidious301]

They were a shot away from down 0-3 and the guy who made the shot for them was OG. Pushing to game 7 is cute and all but they still lost. 2008 hawks also pushed Celtics to 7.

What-ifs can be applied to anything. Taking Boston to overtime in a G7 is overachieving. Period.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What-ifs can be applied to anything. Taking Boston to overtime in a G7 is overachieving. Period.

They only overachieved because OG's shot, that's the point. Hell, OG actually outplayed Trashcal the entire series as well! That tells me if OG wasn't playing, it would of been 4-0 Celtics.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah the Raptors did better than anyone expected them to do and had the world not changed with Covid they probably make the ECF since homecourt advantage probably gets them another game against Boston.

What the Raptors did this year was show they were a worthy champion with a great team. Kawhi is great, but he wasn't carrying scrubs. He was the best player on a great team that went 17-5 without him and was great after he left.

Siakam is a scrub though. 43% TS for the series and a negative 2 BPM for entire playoffs. Vanvleet is also an inefficient chucker, Gasol is completely washed up.

[tontoz]

Siakam is a scrub though. 43% TS for the series and a negative 2 BPM for entire playoffs. Vanvleet is also an inefficient chucker, Gasol is completely washed up.

Then how did they have the 2nd best record in the league?

[insidious301]

They only overachieved because OG's shot, that's the point. Hell, OG actually outplayed Trashcal the entire series as well! That tells me if OG wasn't playing, it would of been 4-0 Celtics.

Last time I checked, he's part of the team. Your logic is comical. If Lowry had one less turnover, Tatum doesn't get an extra dunk. And "OG" doesn't need to even take that shot.

The only conclusion here is Toronto overachieving.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Then how did they have the 2nd best record in the league?

Similar to how bucks had the 1st best. Good coaching and a weak conference.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Last time I checked, he's part of the team. Your logic is comical. If Lowry had one less turnover, Tatum doesn't get an extra dunk. And "OG" doesn't need to even take that shot.

The only conclusion here is Toronto overachieving.

Last one I checked, OG wasn't apart of Kawhi's team. That clown with an 87 offensive rating was (Siakam).

[insidious301]

Last one I checked, OG wasn't apart of Kawhi's team. That clown with an 87 offensive rating was (Siakam).

So you're saying "OG" replaced Kawhi, and Toronto still made the semifinals. A Game 7 overtime at that. If anything you're making an argument against Kawhi.

[tontoz]

Similar to how bucks had the 1st best. Good coaching and a weak conference.

The conference was weak last year too so why didn't they win more games last year with Kawhi? They had a better winning percentage this season.

[tpols]

Also, we both know that you'd never have those expectations for the 09 and 10 Lakers outside of Kobe.

You're trying to pivot, but it's not going to work. A team with prime pau/odom/artest & role players would wipe the floor with the NJ nets. So yes... I would expect the Lakers outside of Kobe to beat who the raptors beat, which is nobody pretty much.

[RRR3]

Poooooooor Ttrolls

[Roundball_Rock]

All Lakers did was replace Shaq with Pau Gasol, add a Siakam level player (Odom). That resulted in back to back championships and 2 wins away from a 3peat.

No, they traded Shaq for Odom and Caron Butler. The result was missing the playoffs the first year and first round exits the two following years (42-45 wins). All with peak Kobe in the house (not exactly Kyle Lowry)...It took them four years and getting an all-NBA level player in Gasol to finally get out the first round.

The Raptors got no one to replace Kawhi and were a 60 win type team that came within a whisker of the ECF. Not comparable.


What-ifs can be applied to anything. Taking Boston to overtime in a G7 is overachieving. Period.

They only apply them in one direction. Take the Chicago case 3ball Junior II referenced. They, if they lost in OT (they are too dishonest to mention if Kukoc missed the result would be OT), were one shot away from 0-3. They also were a couple of plays away from sweeping the Knicks 4-0. Dishonest stans like 3ball Junior II/tpols only apply them in one way, though.


They were a shot away from down 0-3

What is with this BS talking point? The Raptors were one shot away from being down 0-3 too in the ECF last year yet we never hear about that. This is the NBA playoffs. Two contenders. Margins are going to be small. This isn't the NFL where it is going to be 35-14 half the time.


2008 hawks also pushed Celtics to 7.

Yeah--and lost Game 7 by 40 or so...


So what you are saying doesn't make sense. If their expectations are that high...they are an all-time great supporting cast. You can't have it both ways....you can't set that as the bar and then say they suck. Makes no sense.

Yup. If they truly suck, if they truly were a one man team, then the expectation should be a 20-25 win team like the Atlanta Hawks were. Not "disappointing they won 60 and almost made the ECF. Exposed!"


Again, you said this team underachieved this year. The only way for that to be true is if they are a title caliber team.

What is so hard for you to understand?

:confusedshrug:

[insidious301]

They only apply them in one direction. Take the Chicago case 3ball Junior II referenced. They, if they lost in OT (they are too dishonest to mention if Kukoc missed the result would be OT), were one shot away from 0-3. They also were a couple of plays away from sweeping the Knicks 4-0. Dishonest stans like 3ball Junior II/tpols only apply them in one way, though.


And there it is. Will they adhere to common sense or continue bending backwards?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So you're saying "OG" replaced Kawhi, and Toronto still made the semifinals. A Game 7 overtime at that. If anything you're making an argument against Kawhi.

Game 7 never went OT. But sure, they were the 2008 hawks.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No, they traded Shaq for Odom and Caron Butler. The result was missing the playoffs the first year and first round exits the two following years (42-45 wins). All with peak Kobe in the house (not exactly Kyle Lowry)...It took them four years and getting an all-NBA level player in Gasol to finally get out the first round.

The Raptors got no one to replace Kawhi and were a 60 win type team that came within a whisker of the ECF. Not comparable.



They only apply them in one direction. Take the Chicago case 3ball Junior II referenced. They, if they lost in OT (they are too dishonest to mention if Kukoc missed the result would be OT), were one shot away from 0-3. They also were a couple of plays away from sweeping the Knicks 4-0. Dishonest stans like 3ball Junior II/tpols only apply them in one way, though.



What is with this BS talking point? The Raptors were one shot away from being down 0-3 too in the ECF last year yet we never hear about that. This is the NBA playoffs. Two contenders. Margins are going to be small. This isn't the NFL where it is going to be 35-14 half the time.



Yeah--and lost Game 7 by 40 or so...



Yup. If they truly suck, if they truly were a one man team, then the expectation should be a 20-25 win team like the Atlanta Hawks were. Not "disappointing they won 60 and almost made the ECF. Exposed!"



:confusedshrug:

You can't compare Shaq Lakers to 2005 Lakers because Phil Jackson wasn't there. Once Phil got back there and they replaced Shaq with an allstar, they still won 2 rings and went to 3 finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

And there it is. Will they adhere to common sense or continue bending backwards?


Game 7 never went OT. But sure, they were the 2008 hawks.

Game 3 of the ECF went to double OT. The Raptors literally were one shot away in regulation and not one but two OT's from being 0-3. Kawhi in the house. Close wins don't count, right?

The 2008 Hawks were a 37 win 8 seed who got outscored 97-87 on average in the series. That isn't the same as the 2-3 series going to 7 and several of the games, including Game 7, going right down to the wire.


You can't compare Shaq Lakers to 2005 Lakers because Phil Jackson wasn't there. Once Phil got back there and they replaced Shaq with an allstar, they still won 2 rings and went to 3 finals.

Butler was a future all-star and Odom all-star caliber. They had peak Kobe (not 33-34 year old Lowry) and couldn't get out the first round before Gasol (four years to rebuild the team). Were the 8 and 7 seed. It is amusing this is a "good" example brought up to compare to what the Raptors did.

These guys can't find any legit examples because there are a grand total of two in 70+ years of NBA history.

The 05' Lakers are interesting because Kobe missed some time. The team did the same either way. Something like a 35 win pace "down" to a 31 win pace w/out him.

[tpols]

You can't compare Shaq Lakers to 2005 Lakers because Phil Jackson wasn't there. Once Phil got back there and they replaced Shaq with an allstar, they still won 2 rings and went to 3 finals.

Straight ether. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Yes a 60 win 2 seed losing in the 2nd round is an underachievement.

Here is what you said. You flat out said that 60 wins and losing in the 2nd round was an underachievement. Therefore you think that the Raptors were good enough to be expected to win around 60 and at least make the conference finals.

So, no, I'm not trying to pivot. I'm saying that you would never expect those Lakers teams without Kobe to win 60 and at least make the conference finals like you've said about this Raptors team.

So, as usual, you are literally contradicting yourself post after post after post.

[insidious301]

Game 7 never went OT. But sure, they were the 2008 hawks.

Just to be clear. You're saying Anunoby replaced Kawhi, and the Raptors still made a G7 semifinals. Could have won that game too since we're playing what-ifs. So by that token, if Kawhi were replaced by an actual superstar, Toronto beats Boston and likely makes another finals.

[tontoz]

That clown hbk keeps bringing up the Celtics Hawks series which he obviously didn't watch. Every Celtics win was a blowout and every Hawks win was close. That series was an anomaly.

[BurningHammer]

Hey! I am back..
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· Tripod Lunge Step

Bad gimmick.

[tpols]

That clown hbk keeps bringing up the Celtics Hawks series which he obviously didn't watch. Every Celtics win was a blowout and every Hawks win was close. That series was an anomaly.

All of the raptors wins were close, and 2 of Boston's were blowouts. They were a hail mary shot away from 0-3. I'm not sure that argument is gonna work.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is what you said. You flat out said that 60 wins and losing in the 2nd round was an underachievement. Therefore you think that the Raptors were good enough to be expected to win around 60 and at least make the conference finals.

It is comical tpols can't grasp something so simple. Maybe tpols should ask his daddy 3ball to explain this.


Just to be clear. You're saying Anunoby replaced Kawhi, and the Raptors still made a G7 semifinals. Could have won that game too since we're playing what-ifs. So by that token, if Kawhi were replaced by an actual superstar, Toronto beats Boston and likely makes another finals.

Hell, not even a superstar. OG is a random NBA starter. If they got something slightly better than him that in theory would swing the series. Plus, they could have gotten a starting SF who was all-star caliber (even if not an all-star) and still had OG on the bench.

That is what makes what the Raptors did even more impressive. Past examples got quality players to replace the departing star and still did worse. :oldlol:


That clown hbk keeps bringing up the Celtics Hawks series which he obviously didn't watch. Every Celtics win was a blowout and every Hawks win was close. That series was an anomaly.

Exactly and it was a 66 win team versus a 37 win team. The better comps are ones that don't suit his agenda, like the 09' Celtics going 7 with the EC champ Magic w/out KG.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Game 3 of the ECF went to double OT. The Raptors literally were one shot away in regulation and not one but two OT's from being 0-3. Kawhi in the house. Close wins don't count, right?

The 2008 Hawks were a 37 win 8 seed who got outscored 97-87 on average in the series. That isn't the same as the 2-3 series going to 7 and several of the games, including Game 7, going right down to the wire.



Butler was a future all-star and Odom all-star caliber. They had peak Kobe (not 33-34 year old Lowry) and couldn't get out the first round before Gasol (four years to rebuild the team). Were the 8 and 7 seed. It is amusing this is a "good" example brought up to compare to what the Raptors did.

These guys can't find any legit examples because there are a grand total of two in 70+ years of NBA history.

The 05' Lakers are interesting because Kobe missed some time. The team did the same either way. Something like a 35 win pace "down" to a 31 win pace w/out him.

Game 3 went to double OT and the game was won by a player that wasn't on Kawhi's team. If OG wasn't there, the series would of been 0-3 and finished. Teams get depressed when down 0-3 and usually get swept or lose in 5. None of Kawhi's teammates were clutch enough to make a game winner like OG did.

As far as Shaq's lakers, shaq actually lost to Duncan/Parker/Manu in 2003. Kobe with Pau Gasol beat Duncan/Parker/Manu in 2008 in an easy 4-1 series. After 2008, Lakers won back to back rings. Same superstar in Kobe, same system/coach in Phil Jackson, same PG in Fisher, all they had to do was replace Shaq with a top 60 GOAT in Pau Gasol and they got close to the same results.

[insidious301]

Hell, not even a superstar. OG is a random NBA starter. If they got something slightly better than him that in theory would swing the series. Plus, they could have gotten a starting SF who was all-star caliber (even if not an all-star) and still had OG on the bench

That is what makes what the Raptors did even more impressive. Past examples got quality players to replace the departing star and still did worse. :oldlol:

I was trying to be nice, Roundball. Damn! Since we are hearing "Toronto = 08 Atlanta" then we must conclude a better version of "OG" equals an ECF birth. In all seriousness, I legitimately believe a superstar with a respectable jumpshot theoretically would've made Toronto finals bound.

[tpols]

As far as Shaq's lakers, shaq actually lost to Duncan/Parker/Manu in 2003. Kobe with Pau Gasol beat Duncan/Parker/Manu in 2008 in an easy 4-1 series.

That's the difference between Kawhi and Kobe's situations. Kawhi left with no collaterall damage. He was the driving force behind a championship, and his teammates all had that taste of what it meant to be a winner and were all the same players pretty much going into the following year so they rode that championship chemistry to a good regular season. Rockhead doesn't understand, or won't accept that because of his pippen agenda... same exact thing happened with the 1994 Bulls. The 2005 Lakers however were coming off a brutal loss the previous year, downtrodden and nuked out team. Once they got some additional support and licked their wounds, they came out a few years later ready to become a dynasty. So there's a fundamental difference in what happened in the aftermath of both stars Shaq and Kawhi leaving. Shaq blew the whole culture up with his fighting. All Kawhi did was keep his mouth shut and win those guys a ring immediately before he peaced.

[Roundball_Rock]

Game 3 went to double OT and the game was won by a player that wasn't on Kawhi's team. If OG wasn't there, the series would of been 0-3 and finished.

And? They had a Game 3 double OT in 19' too. It doesn't count since they were staring 0-3 in the face with Kawhi there with it all going down?

If OG got hit by a truck we don't know how the "butterfly effect" would go but either way he was there. They won Game 3. They then won Game 4. They then won Game 6 to stave off elimination. They then fought the Celtics for 48 minutes in Game 7. You guys are acting like Game 3 was a fluke. Games 4-7 prove otherwise.

You are comparing 2003 to 2008 when maybe 2-3 players on the 03' team were still there. All this is a cloud of dust to distract from the Lakers going straight to mediocrity without Shaq. This shouldn't surprise anyone. They were 24-29 or something without Shaq, with Kobe from 2000-2004 and that is exactly what they were in 2005-2007 before Gasol.


all they had to do was replace Shaq with a top 60 GOAT in Pau Gasol

They needed a HOF player and four years of building to just get out the first round. The Raptors were almost in the ECF in year one without Kawhi with nothing back. If they got Odom and Butler caliber players they would be in the finals.


I was trying to be nice, Roundball. Damn! Since we are hearing "Toronto = 08 Atlanta" then we must conclude a better version of "OG" equals an ECF birth. In all seriousness, I legitimately believe a superstar who plays off the ball, and has a respectable jumpshot theoretically could've made Toronto finals bound.

What do you think about a random all-star SF? Not a superstar but an all-star replacement, someone like Deng that Miami signed when LeBron bounced.

[insidious301]

What do you think about a random all-star SF? Not a superstar but an all-star replacement, someone like Deng that Miami signed when LeBron bounced.

I don't know, Miami has looked awfully impressive. Not sure if that's because of Milwaukee's misfortune or the fact Riles' club is really that freaking good. Replacing Kawhi with an all-star SF might not be enough.

[tontoz]

All of the raptors wins were close, and 2 of Boston's were blowouts. They were a hail mary shot away from 0-3. I'm not sure that argument is gonna work.


The Celtics outscored the Hawks by 84 points for the series.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Celtics outscored the Hawks by 84 points for the series.

Yeah, it is not apples to apples. These guys are grasping for straws. Plus, as usual, he lied. "All of the Celtics" wins were not blowouts. It is easy to fact check blatant lies.

Game 1: Celtics +13
Game 2: Celtics +3
Game 3: Raptors +1
Game 4: Raptors +7
Game 5: Celtics +12
Game 6: Raptors +3
Game 7: Celtics +5
Average: Celtics +5

Only two games were double digit games. How about the 08' series?

Game 1: Celtics +23
Game 2: Celtics +19
Game 3: Hawks +9
Game 4: Hawks +5
Game 5: Celtics +25
Game 6: Hawks +3
Game 7: Celtics +34
Average: Celtics +12

You have to be as dumb as a rock to think this is in any way comparable to the 20' Celtics-Raptors series. (It is ironic a Kobe fan is invoking the fact that the Hawks managed to win 3 while peak Kobe's team couldn't against the same team--agendas can often boomerang...)

[tpols]

The Celtics outscored the Hawks by 84 points for the series.

I know... and those Celtics were also much better than the current Celtics. KG, Pierce, Ray, and Rondo > Tatum, Brown, Smart, and Kemba. And by quite a bit too. The main point though is the Celtics in this series were kicking the Raptors ass much more than the other way around. Nobody had ANY hope for them before the miracle shot. The only playoff team they beat was a shelled out Nets. The Hawks are actually a good comparison for them. A similarly well rounded, good team work having squad that didn't have any one true superstar player.


Yeah, it is not apples to apples.

You're even starting to use my lingo.

I've taught you well young padawan.

:lol

[tontoz]

So a Hawks team that won 37 games in an 82 game season is a good comparison for a Raps team that won 53 in a 72 game season?

:facepalm

[tpols]

They both got their ass kicked in the playoffs by the Celtics.

This raptor team might not get a game off the '08 Big 3 Boston Celtics.

[RRR3]

People should really stop engaging with Ttrolls as if he’s an honest actor. Every post he makes about basketball can be understood by realizing that the fact that LeBron James surpassed Kobe Bryant as a basketball player ruined his life. If you remember that fact, you will understand why he makes the posts he makes. Take his current stance for instance: the Raptors were apparently the 37-45 2008 Hawks without Kawhi. He can’t admit that Kawhi had an amazing supporting cast because he’s obsessed with maintaining his delusion that “any star player can win out East” in order to make LeBron look bad.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah, it is not apples to apples. These guys are grasping for straws. Plus, as usual, he lied. "All of the Celtics" wins were not blowouts. It is easy to fact check blatant lies.

Game 1: Celtics +13
Game 2: Celtics +3
Game 3: Raptors +1
Game 4: Raptors +7
Game 5: Celtics +12
Game 6: Raptors +3
Game 7: Celtics +5
Average: Celtics +5

Only two games were double digit games. How about the 08' series?

Game 1: Celtics +23
Game 2: Celtics +19
Game 3: Hawks +9
Game 4: Hawks +5
Game 5: Celtics +25
Game 6: Hawks +3
Game 7: Celtics +34
Average: Celtics +12

You have to be as dumb as a rock to think this is in any way comparable to the 20' Celtics-Raptors series. (It is ironic a Kobe fan is invoking the fact that the Hawks managed to win 3 while peak Kobe's team couldn't against the same team--agendas can often boomerang...)

But that 08 Celtics team would sweep the 2020 raptors, that's my point.

[Smoke117]

Team loses top 5 player in the league and gets worse...nothing gets past you, OP.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

And? They had a Game 3 double OT in 19' too. It doesn't count since they were staring 0-3 in the face with Kawhi there with it all going down?

If OG got hit by a truck we don't know how the "butterfly effect" would go but either way he was there. They won Game 3. They then won Game 4. They then won Game 6 to stave off elimination. They then fought the Celtics for 48 minutes in Game 7. You guys are acting like Game 3 was a fluke. Games 4-7 prove otherwise.

You are comparing 2003 to 2008 when maybe 2-3 players on the 03' team were still there. All this is a cloud of dust to distract from the Lakers going straight to mediocrity without Shaq. This shouldn't surprise anyone. They were 24-29 or something without Shaq, with Kobe from 2000-2004 and that is exactly what they were in 2005-2007 before Gasol.



They needed a HOF player and four years of building to just get out the first round. The Raptors were almost in the ECF in year one without Kawhi with nothing back. If they got Odom and Butler caliber players they would be in the finals.



What do you think about a random all-star SF? Not a superstar but an all-star replacement, someone like Deng that Miami signed when LeBron bounced.

OG had to emerge to make up for awful Siakam was playing. Kawhi didn't have that luxury, he just had to accept how bad Siakam was. That's the main difference. Raptors lose in 5 games if it wasn't for OG.

Phil/Kobe took a bottom of the barrell HOF player (top 50-60) in Pau Gasol and replaced Shaq, that gave them similar results.

Raptors without Kawhi haven't had anything close to the same results as they did with him. 2018-2020 raptors have a 3-8 non 1st round playoff record and one of those wins was a 0.5 second miracle shot.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

They both got their ass kicked in the playoffs by the Celtics.

This raptor team might not get a game off the '08 Big 3 Boston Celtics.

Exactly. Siakam had an 87 offensive rating in the 2nd round this year and he was Kawhi's 2nd option via PPG hahhaha he is always a negative BPM in playoffs without Kawhi as well.

[insidious301]

People are missing the point, and whatever the 2008 Hawks did is irrelevant. The Kawhi-less Raptors just took Boston to the second round, and a close G7. The only parallel here is 1994 Chicago without Jordan. Both teams exceeded expectations and have undeniably proved their worth.

[Roundball_Rock]

People should really stop engaging with Ttrolls as if he’s an honest actor. Every post he makes about basketball can be understood by realizing that the fact that LeBron James surpassed Kobe Bryant as a basketball player ruined his life. If you remember that fact, you will understand why he makes the posts he makes. Take his current stance for instance: the Raptors were apparently the 37-45 2008 Hawks without Kawhi. He can’t admit that Kawhi had an amazing supporting cast because he’s obsessed with maintaining his delusion that “any star player can win out East” in order to make LeBron look bad.

:applause:

Yup. He and IMKobe are two sides of the same coin, both betas of 3ball (different motivations than 1-9ball but same agenda).


But that 08 Celtics team would sweep the 2020 raptors

The 2020 Celtics would need 7 games and 48 minutes in Game 7 to beat the 2020 Raptors. These cross era comps are useless.


Kawhi didn't have that luxury

He had the luxury of a team that could remain a contender without him. Why are you pleading poverty of "help" for him? It is funny he left that team for another team and the superstar GM Kawhi handpicked was Playoff P (for SGA/Gallo and a decade's worth of first round picks). Let's see how his bet plays out.

[tontoz]

Siakam averaged 19/7 in the playoffs last year. He wasn't horrible by a long shot.

Did anyone consider that siakam might not have been able to work out properly during the virus lockdown? He was struggling from day 1 in the bubble games.

[tpols]

Siakam averaged 19/7 in the playoffs last year. He wasn't horrible by a long shot.

Did anyone consider that siakam might not have been able to work out properly during the virus lockdown? He was struggling from day 1 in the bubble games.

:roll:

yoo fellas. We have a brand new excuse.

[tontoz]

:roll:

yoo fellas. We have a brand new excuse.

If you have another explanation for why his production bin the 8 bubble games pre-playoffs was so much worse that his production prior to the lock down then please feel free to share.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

:applause:

Yup. He and IMKobe are two sides of the same coin, both betas of 3ball (different motivations than 1-9ball but same agenda).



The 2020 Celtics would need 7 games and 48 minutes in Game 7 to beat the 2020 Raptors. These cross era comps are useless.



He had the luxury of a team that could remain a contender without him. Why are you pleading poverty of "help" for him? It is funny he left that team for another team and the superstar GM Kawhi handpicked was Playoff P (for SGA/Gallo and a decade's worth of first round picks). Let's see how his bet plays out.


Kawhi with Siakam as his 2nd option scorer beat Butler/Embiid/Simmons in 7 games

Giannis with Middelton and Lopez were down 0-3 vs Butler/Bam/Dragic

The scoring was far worse Lowry/Siakam then it was for Middelton/Lopez. Kawhi still wins 4-3 and Giannis loses 0-3. That should tell you the difference in star impact like Giannis and GOAT impact like Kawhi.

[Axe]

Kawhi with Siakam as his 2nd option scorer beat Butler/Embiid/Simmons in 7 games

Giannis with Middelton and Lopez were down 0-3 vs Butler/Bam/Dragic

The scoring was far worse Lowry/Siakam then it was for Middelton/Lopez. Kawhi still wins 4-3 and Giannis loses 0-3. That should tell you the difference in star impact like Giannis and GOAT impact like Kawhi.
So what about other of kawhi's former teammates? Danny green? Marc gasol? Fred vanvleet? Serge ibaka? Iirc, there was more than one postseason game last year where most of them managed to score in double figures.

[Roundball_Rock]

That should tell you the difference in star impact like Giannis and GOAT impact like Kawhi.

Giannis is a superstar but I think at this point everyone agrees Kawhi>Giannis. That doesn't erase that he played on a team that was strong enough to contend even without him. No one is saying Kawhi had 0 impact. We are saying the Raptor's "cast" baseline was historically high. All year they kept being compared to one team and the reason for that is obvious: there literally is only one other parallel in 70+ years of basketball. Everyone else struggled to 0.500 and got bounced in the first round or missed the playoffs altogether.

[AussieSteve]

Realiatically the 2019 raps and 2020 raps are pretty similar really.

2019 raps just won game 7 in the 2nd round.

2020 raps just lost game 7 in the 2nd round to the likely east champs.

We're talking a couple buckets difference over a 7 game series.

[Axe]

Realiatically the 2019 raps and 2020 raps are pretty similar really.

2019 raps just won game 7 in the 2nd round.

2020 raps just lost game 7 in the 2nd round to the likely east champs.

We're talking a couple buckets difference over a 7 game series.
Hence, the comparison to the 1994 bulls.

In fact, their playoff runs are exactly similar. Both swept their respective rivals in the first round and exited in the ecsf after a grueling 7-game series.

[Roundball_Rock]

Realiatically the 2019 raps and 2020 raps are pretty similar really.

2019 raps just won game 7 in the 2nd round.

2020 raps just lost game 7 in the 2nd round to the likely east champs.

We're talking a couple buckets difference over a 7 game series.

Yup. That is the sad thing. We know forevermore we will hear "but, but, but they lost in the second round!!!" when the reality is the gap in performance was much closer. The Raptors with Kawhi were literally one shot away from doing the same.


In fact, their playoff runs are exactly similar. Both swept their respective rivals in the first round and exited in the ecsf after a grueling 7-game series.

There is one key difference: the Bulls' 94' opponents were their 93' and 92' opponents. So it gives us even more comparative data against common opponents (long story short: the Bulls had the point differential edge in all six series but the advantage not surprisingly decreased in 94'). The 19' and 20' Raptors had no common opponents.

The narrative is the Bulls were failures because they lost narrowly to the Knicks but that ignores the Knicks played the Bulls close in 92' and 93' (a fact the same people would be quick to point out in other contexts). As AussieSteve mentioned with the Raptors, you are talking a few bounces here and there. If Charles Smith doesn't get blocked four times on the final NY play of Game 5 the Knicks may very well have won the 93' series, for example.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Giannis is a superstar but I think at this point everyone agrees Kawhi>Giannis. That doesn't erase that he played on a team that was strong enough to contend even without him. No one is saying Kawhi had 0 impact. We are saying the Raptor's "cast" baseline was historically high. All year they kept being compared to one team and the reason for that is obvious: there literally is only one other parallel in 70+ years of basketball. Everyone else struggled to 0.500 and got bounced in the first round or missed the playoffs altogether.

Giannis is a 2 time MVP and Kawhi is destroying him in playoff impact. That should tell you something.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Realiatically the 2019 raps and 2020 raps are pretty similar really.

2019 raps just won game 7 in the 2nd round.

2020 raps just lost game 7 in the 2nd round to the likely east champs.

We're talking a couple buckets difference over a 7 game series.

2nd round exit vs championship

How did you come to the conclusion of that being the same thing wow

[AussieSteve]

2nd round exit vs championship

How did you come to the conclusion of that being the same thing wow

Not the same thing. Raptors were better with Kawhi. Obviously. He's one of the best players in the world.

But the gap in the teams' performance is not huge. Both played very tight 7 game 2nd rounds against a top 2 east team. Kawhi's team got it done by the skin of their teeth. Without him they couldn't quite.

The bucks were exposed massively this year and the warriors were enormously depleted last year, so we can't read too much into those series.

The two 2nd rounds are a good barometer of the two teams.

[Roundball_Rock]

Giannis is a 2 time MVP and Kawhi is destroying him in playoff impact. That should tell you something.

It tells us something I believe everyone agrees on. I had Giannis over Kawhi (I did have Kawhi #2) but I can't sustain that position after another subpar PO run by Giannis.

We all recognize Kawhi as great. Even LeBron stans have him as top 5 at minimum. So why the need to pretend Kawhi won without a great team behind him? The argument against the 20' Raptors implicitly says they were an all-time great "cast" because they were expected to make the ECF at minimum. If they sucked, the question should be why they got as far as they did instead of being the 20' Hawks.

If Kobe left the Lakers after 09' would the expectation be that the 10' Lakers win 60 and make the WCF? This question was raised earlier by another poster and dodged. We know why it was dodged...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It tells us something I believe everyone agrees on. I had Giannis over Kawhi (I did have Kawhi #2) but I can't sustain that position after another subpar PO run by Giannis.

We all recognize Kawhi as great. Even LeBron stans have him as top 5 at minimum. So why the need to pretend Kawhi won without a great team behind him? The argument against the 20' Raptors implicitly says they were an all-time great "cast" because they were expected to make the ECF at minimum. If they sucked, the question should be why they got as far as they did instead of being the 20' Hawks.

If Kobe left the Lakers after 09' would the expectation be that the 10' Lakers win 60 and make the WCF? This question was raised earlier by another poster and dodged. We know why it was dodged...

Pau Gasol did win 50 games with Grizzles. Put prime Pau with Phil Jackson and Lamar Odom, I would say they would be a 50 win team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not the same thing. Raptors were better with Kawhi. Obviously. He's one of the best players in the world.

But the gap in the teams' performance is not huge. Both played very tight 7 game 2nd rounds against a top 2 east team. Kawhi's team got it done by the skin of their teeth. Without him they couldn't quite.

The bucks were exposed massively this year and the warriors were enormously depleted last year, so we can't read too much into those series.

The two 2nd rounds are a good barometer of the two teams.

Raptors choked and scored 16 points in the 4th quarter. That's not the same as Kawhi carrying them all 4th quarter and making a buzzer beater.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So what about other of kawhi's former teammates? Danny green? Marc gasol? Fred vanvleet? Serge ibaka? Iirc, there was more than one postseason game last year where most of them managed to score in double figures.

All replaceable defensive role players. Old Gasol ruins the offense and Green was inefficient.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pau Gasol did win 50 games with Grizzles. Put prime Pau with Phil Jackson and Lamar Odom, I would say they would be a 50 win team.

You aren't a Kobe stan, though. The reformed Kobe stan turned MJ stan (last seen saying AD>Kareem) won't say what you just said.


Raptors choked and scored 16 points in the 4th quarter.

This stuff gets overblown. Game 7's usually are low scoring, low efficiency affairs. The Celtics scored 20 in the 4th and that counts the two FT Kemba made when intentionally fouled. It was 18-16 outside of that. Celtics shot 35% in the fourth, Raptors 36%.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You aren't a Kobe stan, though. The reformed Kobe stan turned MJ stan (last seen saying AD>Kareem) won't say what you just said.



This stuff gets overblown. Game 7's usually are low scoring, low efficiency affairs. The Celtics scored 20 in the 4th and that counts the two FT Kemba made when intentionally fouled. It was 18-16 outside of that. Celtics shot 35% in the fourth, Raptors 36%.

21 points in game 2, 16 points in game 7. They had two 4th quarter meltdowns, that's half their losses.

[TheCorporation]

94 Bulls w/o MJ = Lose in 7, ECSF

20 Raptors w/o Kawhi = Lose in 7, ECSF

12, 13, 14 Cavs w/o LeBron (WITH Kyrie) = Lottery

Guys? We done now?

[jlip]

Just to troll HBK... So are you saying that Kawhi was exposed this year without his ~60 win team?

[SouBeachTalents]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BowedRigidHydra-size_restricted.gif

[k0kakw0rld]

Eat a phat d!ck OP.

Raptors and Nurse would have never blown a 3-1 lead.

[Axe]

Op, who do you think is much worse during their respective elimination games earlier? Spicy p or playoff p? The former had 13 points and 11 rebounds against boston versus the latter's 10 points and 4 rebounds against denver.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is fitting they both had identical outcomes: #2 seed, lose in 7 in the second round. The one subtle difference is the Raptors were in it to the very end of Game 7 while the Clippers folded in the fourth.

[tontoz]

It is fitting they both had identical outcomes: #2 seed, lose in 7 in the second round. The one subtle difference is the Raptors were in it to the very end of Game 7 while the Clippers folded in the fourth 3 straight games.


FYP :lol

Fixed the title of the thread too.

[red1]

3-1 lead

kachoke and the flippers


https://media.tenor.com/images/417715538a572432f53deeb681d5a425/tenor.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

FYP :lol

Fixed the title of the thread too.

True. :oldlol: What were the margins? 19, 16, and 14 point leads blown?

[red1]

50 years and not one conference final



https://media.tenor.com/images/417715538a572432f53deeb681d5a425/tenor.gif

[LAmbruh]

50 years and not one conference final



https://media.tenor.com/images/417715538a572432f53deeb681d5a425/tenor.gif

https://media.tenor.com/images/417715538a572432f53deeb681d5a425/tenor.gif

[StrongLurk]

Oooooooooof

OP has been destroyed.