Let's put AD on Harden's team, and Westbrook on Lebron's... Who wins

[3ball]

Harden obviously - Harden has better stats than lebron for several years now, but simply hasn't had teamed up/cheated to get Big 3 super-teams like lebron did.. he didn't cheat to win like lebron

[BigtimeNBAFan]

I thought stats didn't matter? You Lebron haters need to have a big convention and get your stories straight. One thread; "It doesn't matter that Lebron has the best stats in playoff history because he is just statpadding!" In another thread "he only had 10 points in a game, he sucks!" or "Harden has better stats, so he is better!" Despite of course routinely choking in the playoffs and having a far worse playoff record.

[TheGoatest]

Let's put Pippen on Magic's team. Worthy on Jordan's.
Pippen on Drexler's team. Terry Porter on Jordan's.
Pippen on Barkley's team. Kevin Johnson on Jordan's.
Pippen on Payton/Kemp's team. Payton/Kemp on Jordan's.
Pippen on Malone's team. Stockton on Jordan's.

Who wins?

[Gohan]

I thought stats didn't matter? You Lebron haters need to have a big convention and get your stories straight. One thread; "It doesn't matter that Lebron has the best stats in playoff history because he is just statpadding!" In another thread "he only had 10 points in a game, he sucks!" or "Harden has better stats, so he is better!" Despite of course routinely choking in the playoffs and having a far worse playoff record.


He is a hater but it’s clear you’re a Stan

[StrongLurk]

How did Lebron cheat to form a superteam? He joined a shitty Lakers team in 2018 and then the ORGANIZATION TRADED FOR AD in 2019.

I mean, the Rockets made MULTIPLE trades as well for this year and got Westbrook who put up 27/8/7 in the reg season.

Also, Kawhi literally colluded with PG this offseason to form the most stacked team in the league.

OP idk why you are melting down?

[Manny98]

3ball melting hard af recently :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

1-9ball melting down. :lol LeBron in his 11th conference finals, 7th without Wade. How many did MJ make without Pippen?



Let's put Pippen on Magic's team. Worthy on Jordan's.
Pippen on Drexler's team. Terry Porter on Jordan's.
Pippen on Barkley's team. Kevin Johnson on Jordan's.
Pippen on Payton/Kemp's team. Payton/Kemp on Jordan's.
Pippen on Malone's team. Stockton on Jordan's.

Who wins?

Great post. They will never answer since the answers are obvious. :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

3ball melting hard af recently :lol

Imagine if Bron gets another FMVP :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Harden obviously - Harden has better stats than lebron for several years now, but simply hasn't had teamed up/cheated to get Big 3 super-teams like lebron did.. he didn't cheat to win like lebron

:roll:

This is a pretty good ether not gonna lie.

[Bronbron23]

Harden obviously - Harden has better stats than lebron for several years now, but simply hasn't had teamed up/cheated to get Big 3 super-teams like lebron did.. he didn't cheat to win like lebron

lebrons.

[Roundball_Rock]

He created this after someone said put Pippen on the Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Jazz and put Worthy, Porter, Johnson, and Stockton on MJ's. He couldn't handle the obvious answer (which doesn't even get to teams like the Knicks, Pacers, and Cavs if you swap Pippen for Starks, Smits, or Daughtery), continued his meltdown, and created this thread.

[Shawn Kemp]

(which doesn't even get to teams like the Knicks, Pacers, and Cavs if you swap Pippen for Starks, Smits, or Daughtery), continued his meltdown, and created this thread.



Ewing had teammates outplay Pippen in the 89' ECSF and 92' ECSF (the X-man debacle)

So guys like Ewing, Payton*, and Miller already had guys that were ouplaying Pippen, yet they all lost.. Pippen averaged 16 on 39% in the 98' ECF, compared to 16 on 55% for Smits

(* yes, a sick brag.. I outplayed pippen too.. it really wasn't all that hard I might add)

[goozeman]

Let's put Pippen on Magic's team. Worthy on Jordan's.
Pippen on Drexler's team. Terry Porter on Jordan's.
Pippen on Barkley's team. Kevin Johnson on Jordan's.
Pippen on Payton/Kemp's team. Payton/Kemp on Jordan's.
Pippen on Malone's team. Stockton on Jordan's.

Who wins?

Ummm, Jordan still wins... :confusedshrug: especially with prime Worthy, Johnson, or Payton. Easy.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ewing had teammates outplay Pippen in the 89' ECSF and 92' ECSF (the X-man debacle)

So guys like Ewing, Payton*, and Miller already had guys that were ouplaying Pippen, yet they all lost.. Pippen averaged 16 on 39% in the 98' ECF, compared to 16 on 55% for Smits

(* yes, a sick brag.. I outplayed pippen too.. it really wasn't all that hard I might add)

Hey look, it is 3ball. Why can't you serve your ban like a man?


Ummm, Jordan still wins...

Since Pippen is Iggy to you nuts insecure about MJ. The question is for people who live in the real world.

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron wins. Both Harden & AD are early playoff exits as #1 options, Westbrook is trash, but LeBron's greatness would put them over the top.

GOAT

[Rolando]

D'Antoni wouldn't even play AD. To big and tall.....Not good.

[goozeman]

Since Pippen is Iggy to you nuts insecure about MJ. The question is for people who live in the real world.

The real world? How is Pippen even an upgrade over Payton, Worthy, Johnson, or Stockton? At best it's a wash, but I would say all those guys except maybe Stockton have higher ceiling offensively than Pippen, especially in playoff basketball. Stockton and Payton also have elite defensive skills but are way better floor generals and play makers than Pippen because they are true point guards, not wannabe's in Phil's triangle. Worthy was a better scorer as a 2nd or even 3rd option behind Magic/Kareem than Pippen was as 2nd and won Finals MVP, i.e. same amount points on less touches on better efficiency. Kevin Johnson was far more explosive scorer in the playoffs, a guy capable of average 27ppg. Jonshon led the playoffs in PER in 95 on excellent efficiency, 25ppg on 66TS%. Pippen never came close to that kind of production. Put Jordan with any of those guys and he would be better than fine, especially Payton and Stockton. Hell, that would be an embarrassment of riches. Stockton in Phil's triangle having that many playmaking options would have been scary. You telling me you swap Stockton for Pippen Bulls can't go out and find anybody to play SF that would put them over the hump with any of those guys? Like I said, Bulls and Jordan still win.

[Lebron23]

D'Antoni wouldn't even play AD. To big and tall.....Not good.

He coached Amare Stoudemire.

[Vino24]

I’m convinced that Westbrook would thrive next to LeBron as AD has. I think 23ppg with solid assist and rebound numbers. Westbrook would be like a stronger more healthy Wade for Bron Bron

[SouBeachTalents]

Let's put Starks on Jordan's team and Pippen on Ewing's and see who wins

[TheGoatest]

Let's put Starks on Jordan's team and Pippen on Ewing's and see who wins

The answer is obvious, but you'll still get a troll reply that Jordan and Starks would win.

[GrayGoat]

Let's put Starks on Jordan's team and Pippen on Ewing's and see who wins

You know 3ball wants to reply so badly but he can’t make it to obvious with his alts lolol

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's put Starks on Jordan's team and Pippen on Ewing's and see who wins


The answer is obvious, but you'll still get a troll reply that Jordan and Starks would win.

:oldlol:

Yup, and they will add that Starks>Pippen to boot. Pippen Derangement Syndrome is a common side effect of LeBron Derangement Syndrome.


You know 3ball wants to reply so badly but he can’t make it to obvious with his alts lolol

:lol

His disciples tpols, IMKobe, "gooseman" will do it for their hero.

[3balls]

Let's put Starks on Jordan's team and Pippen on Ewing's and see who wins

Ewing already had numerous teammates outplay Pippen in 89', 92', and 96', but lost all 3 times, whereas nobody outplays AD, not even lebron

You guys need to get better counterargument.. the sad thing is you thought it was a good response

Pippen sucked bro... He wasn't some juggernaut and got destroyed all the time. Most of his playoff career infact

[SouBeachTalents]

Ewing already had numerous teammates outplay Pippen in 89', 92', and 96', but lost all 3 times, whereas nobody outplays AD, not even lebron

You guys need to get better counterargument.. the sad thing is you thought it was a good response

Pippen sucked bro... He wasn't some juggernaut and got destroyed all the time. Most of his playoff career infact
LeBron just outplayed AD in the last series

[GrayGoat]

Ewing already had numerous teammates outplay Pippen in 89', 92', and 96', but lost all 3 times, whereas nobody outplays AD, not even lebron

You guys need to get better counterargument.. the sad thing is you thought it was a good response

Pippen sucked bro... He wasn't some juggernaut and got destroyed all the time. Most of his playoff career infact
Keep making them accounts baby boi you can’t convince us

[Turbo Slayer]

Ewing already had numerous teammates outplay Pippen in 89', 92', and 96', but lost all 3 times, whereas nobody outplays AD, not even lebron

You guys need to get better counterargument.. the sad thing is you thought it was a good response

Pippen sucked bro... He wasn't some juggernaut and got destroyed all the time. Most of his playoff career infact Stop...

:facepalm

[insidious301]

The real world? How is Pippen even an upgrade over Payton, Worthy, Johnson, or Stockton? At best it's a wash, but I would say all those guys except maybe Stockton have higher ceiling offensively than Pippen, especially in playoff basketball. Stockton and Payton also have elite defensive skills but are way better floor generals and play makers than Pippen because they are true point guards, not wannabe's in Phil's triangle. Worthy was a better scorer as a 2nd or even 3rd option behind Magic/Kareem than Pippen was as 2nd and won Finals MVP, i.e. same amount points on less touches on better efficiency. Kevin Johnson was far more explosive scorer in the playoffs, a guy capable of average 27ppg. Jonshon led the playoffs in PER in 95 on excellent efficiency, 25ppg on 66TS%. Pippen never came close to that kind of production. Put Jordan with any of those guys and he would be better than fine, especially Payton and Stockton. Hell, that would be an embarrassment of riches. Stockton in Phil's triangle having that many playmaking options would have been scary. You telling me you swap Stockton for Pippen Bulls can't go out and find anybody to play SF that would put them over the hump with any of those guys? Like I said, Bulls and Jordan still win.

More hypocrisy from the clown band. You use PER, another advanced metric that is also known to be "flawed", yet in PER, Playoff Pippen > Worthy comfortably. Of course there is defense and playmaking too, both which Worthy trails by acres. And then BPM and VORP. Simply put, the Bulls dont win their first title that year with Worthy replacing Pippen. Nothing points to it, not even your own elected stat.


:oldlol:

Yup, and they will add that Starks>Pippen to boot. Pippen Derangement Syndrome is a common side effect of LeBron Derangement Syndrome.



:lol

His disciples tpols, IMKobe, "gooseman" will do it for their hero.

The buffoon literally said Jordan still wins. I'm still waiting for the punchline, Roundball! Right I'm sure MJ wins with players whose only impact comes from scoring. Of course they neglect to mention, or maybe it is beyond them, these players score less with Jordan at the helm.

[And1AllDay]

If we swap out Pippen for any opponents #2 option in Mikes fake manufactured career he ends up with 1 ring at most :oldlol:


op is on one again

[And1AllDay]

LeBron just outplayed AD in the last series

No he didndt!!!! He only had more points, assists, steals, blocks and a better game score when AD was being birdfed against 6'5 centers and LeBron had all the attention :oldlol: :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

Let's put Starks on Jordan's team and Pippen on Ewing's and see who wins

Wrap it up, Knicks in 4

[AussieSteve]

Harden obviously - Harden has better stats than lebron for several years now, but simply hasn't had teamed up/cheated to get Big 3 super-teams like lebron did.. he didn't cheat to win like lebron

Harden has better stats.

In 3ball's world, stats are the only measure of how good a player is.

[knicksman]

paul pierce has shown how easy it is to win with superteams and had they form it at the same age as lebron, he wouldve the same rings as lebron. Thats why lebron is insecure coz he knows damn well hes not yet a winner. Players want to win to earn that respect and he knows damn well hes not yet respected so his rings are worth nothing.

[Axe]

Ewing already had numerous teammates outplay Pippen in 89', 92', and 96', but lost all 3 times, whereas nobody outplays AD, not even lebron

You guys need to get better counterargument.. the sad thing is you thought it was a good response

Pippen sucked bro... He wasn't some juggernaut and got destroyed all the time. Most of his playoff career infact
A new dup perhaps? Nice going.

[Spurs m8]

Harden and AD

[light]

Harden obviously - Harden has better stats than lebron for several years now, but simply hasn't had teamed up/cheated to get Big 3 super-teams like lebron did.. he didn't cheat to win like lebron

LeBron and Westbrook would win.

LeBron would have Westbrook looking great.

Neither Harden or AD are leaders. They just put up numbers, but that's not enough.

[Roundball_Rock]

Harden has better stats.

In 3ball's world, stats are the only measure of how good a player is.

Generally--until someone posts stats that show Pippen as better than a player they prop up for agenda purposes like Ewing as a recent example.

:lol at Pippen not being an upgrade over a guy like Worthy. These clowns are unhinged. A take so dumb Soundwave is afraid of saying it on his main account.

[Bronbron23]

The answer is obvious, but you'll still get a troll reply that Jordan and Starks would win.

Weird comparison. The op comparison is all mvp type players. Starks was nice but he's no westbrook. Mj and any mvp from that era beat Ewing and pip.

[ELITEpower23]

Weird comparison. The op comparison is all mvp type players. Starks was nice but he's no westbrook. Mj and any mvp from that era beat Ewing and pip.

They're swapping #2 options please turn your brain on to enter the discussion.

[Bronbron23]

They're swapping #2 options please turn your brain on to enter the discussion.

Yeah i get that but the insinuation is that bron in an equel circumstance would win and thats not necessarily true. Here's one. Lets put wade on 2011 mavs and jason terry on miami. Who wins? The better question is does miami even win a game?

[TAZORAC]

Harden obviously - Harden has better stats than lebron for several years now, but simply hasn't had teamed up/cheated to get Big 3 super-teams like lebron did.. he didn't cheat to win like lebron

There's 12 players on a basketball not 2.

Houston has a better team then the Lakers from 1-12...Houston's small ball was horrible to go against Anthony Davis.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah i get that but the insinuation is that bron in an equel circumstance would win and thats not necessarily true. Here's one. Lets put wade on 2011 mavs and jason terry on miami. Who wins? The better question is does miami even win a game?

I don't think that's necessarily the insinuation. It's more so the OP arguing LeBron had a big edge in help and people noting MJ had Pippen against guys like Starks. Pippen is top 30 all-time by consensus. Stockton is as well, always a couple stops behind Pippen. After that, though, where is the next highest 90's sidekick? Worthy is what, top 60? Kemp top 80? Starks, Smits, Johnson, Porter, Daugherty don't even register on the scale.

I agree Davis is the best "sidekick" of today's league. There isn't really a dispute over that on ISH (we don't see LeBron stans ripping Davis or Wade 24/7). It is the MJ crowd acting like MJ didn't have an edge and act like MJ had a disadvantage because his sidekick was Iggy going up against all these flawless 90's stars (notice how MJ stains don't utter a single criticism of any 90's star except Pippen who they criticize 24/7).

To be clear, I'm talking the nutty MJ stans, hence saying MJ stains. Not the sane ones. But 3ball and his disciples drive much of the conversation on ISH.

[sdot_thadon]

Uh oh, I've seen this movie before. This is the part where 3ball makes around 50 alts that get banned within the 1st 10 posts...

[TheCorporation]

Uh oh, I've seen this movie before. This is the part where 3ball makes around 50 alts that get banned within the 1st 10 posts...

And so it begins



https://i.postimg.cc/rpv7H0g3/3ball-dodo.png

https://media.giphy.com/media/3P0oEX5oTmrkY/giphy.gif

[SATAN]

Harden obviously - Harden has better stats than lebron for several years now, but simply hasn't had teamed up/cheated to get Big 3 super-teams like lebron did.. he didn't cheat to win like lebron

1-9

[SATAN]

And so it begins



https://i.postimg.cc/rpv7H0g3/3ball-dodo.png

https://media.giphy.com/media/3P0oEX5oTmrkY/giphy.gif

https://thefireworkslady.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Best-Party-Fireworks.jpg

:applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Uh oh, I've seen this movie before. This is the part where 3ball makes around 50 alts that get banned within the 1st 10 posts...

Can't imagine how pathetic that worm must be in his daily life.

Trolls here all day and cant even handle a timeout by a mod.

Stopped by earlier and seen the mass accounts he created. :oldlol: One of them was "Shawn Kemp" talking to himself in third person. Holy shit!

[kawhileonard2]

Harden obviously - Harden has better stats than lebron for several years now, but simply hasn't had teamed up/cheated to get Big 3 super-teams like lebron did.. he didn't cheat to win like lebron
AD has been the best player on the Lakers all year.

[TheCorporation]

AD has been the best player on the Lakers all year.

I want to make sure I get your definition of best. When they played Houston and AD was being guarded by a 6'5 defender and LeBron was the center of the defensive attention he still led his Lakers team in:

-Points
-Assists
-Steals
-Blocks
-Game Score

AD led in Rebounds

So when you say "best" do you mean best rebounder on the Lakers? Because then and only then I could agree with you.

[sdot_thadon]

Can't imagine how pathetic that worm must be in his daily life.

Trolls here all day and cant even handle a timeout by a mod.

Stopped by earlier and seen the mass accounts he created. :oldlol: One of them was "Shawn Kemp" talking to himself in third person. Holy shit!

Yeah I saw him do the same routine on at least 2 other sites before he stumbled into this place.

[kawhileonard2]

I want to make sure I get your definition of best. When they played Houston and AD was being guarded by a 6'5 defender and LeBron was the center of the defensive attention he still led his Lakers team in:

-Points
-Assists
-Steals
-Blocks
-Game Score

AD led in Rebounds

So when you say "best" do you mean best rebounder on the Lakers? Because then and only then I could agree with you.

I mean the guy who led in scoring and PER.

[FireDavidKahn]

You've admitted to not watching any games in years.

[Bronbron23]

I don't think that's necessarily the insinuation. It's more so the OP arguing LeBron had a big edge in help and people noting MJ had Pippen against guys like Starks. Pippen is top 30 all-time by consensus. Stockton is as well, always a couple stops behind Pippen. After that, though, where is the next highest 90's sidekick? Worthy is what, top 60? Kemp top 80? Starks, Smits, Johnson, Porter, Daugherty don't even register on the scale.

I agree Davis is the best "sidekick" of today's league. There isn't really a dispute over that on ISH (we don't see LeBron stans ripping Davis or Wade 24/7). It is the MJ crowd acting like MJ didn't have an edge and act like MJ had a disadvantage because his sidekick was Iggy going up against all these flawless 90's stars (notice how MJ stains don't utter a single criticism of any 90's star except Pippen who they criticize 24/7).

To be clear, I'm talking the nutty MJ stans, hence saying MJ stains. Not the sane ones. But 3ball and his disciples drive much of the conversation on ISH.

Well there was a healthy penny next to shaq who was better than any second option in todays game not named ad. Kemp wasnt no joke either. Shit penny is better than alot of teams first option now. As far as the knicks obviously pip was better than Starks but it dosn't necessarily mean much. The nicks were like the bad boys pistons or the 2004 pistons where defense and physicality were there game.

And unlike most mj fans i value pip alot but pip being top 30 is larger due to mj and them winning 6 chips. Pip as the best player on a team wouldn't even be a top 100. Mj on the other hand would of gone down a goat candidate regardless. Give mj almost any all star and he's still winning multiple chips. Cant say the same for pip. He probably dosnt win any. In todays game he'd be a lesser greek. A really good defender but limited offensively. Mj in today's game would be an absolute nightmare.

So When i say pip is just as important its not because i think he's anywhere near mj as a player he just complimented mj and that bulls system perfectly and he was very important for their success. Mj is a much better individual player though and its not close

[TheCorporation]

I mean the guy who led in scoring and PER.

I want to make sure I get your definition of best. When they played Houston and AD was being guarded by a 6'5 defender and LeBron was the center of the defensive attention he still led his Lakers team in:

-Points
-Assists
-Steals
-Blocks
-Game Score

AD led in Rebounds

So when you say "best" do you mean best rebounder on the Lakers? Because then and only then I could agree with you.

[TheCorporation]

Well there was a healthy penny next to shaq who was better than any second option in todays game not named ad. Kemp wasnt no joke either. Shit penny is better than alot of teams first option now. As far as the knicks obviously pip was better than Starks but it dosn't necessarily mean much. The nicks were like the bad boys pistons or the 2004 pistons where defense and physicality were there game.

And unlike most mj fans i value pip alot but pip being top 30 is larger due to mj and them winning 6 chips. Pip as the best player on a team wouldn't even be a top 100. Mj on the other hand would of gone down a goat candidate regardless. Give mj almost any all star and he's still winning multiple chips. Cant say the same for pip. He probably dosnt win any. In todays game he'd be a lesser greek. A really good defender but limited offensively. Mj in today's game would be an absolute nightmare.

So When i say pip is just as important its not because i think he's anywhere near mj as a player he just complimented mj and that bulls system perfectly and he was very important for their success. Mj is a much better individual player though and its not close

Anfernee Hardway best #2 and better than most #1 options? :lol

Are we talking about 21 and 7 PEAK Anfernee Hardaway? So basically less than Khris Middleton and worse defense.

Penny played 15 seasons in the NBA and he scored over 21 ppg...once :lol

Next

[FireDavidKahn]

I want to make sure I get your definition of best. When they played Houston and AD was being guarded by a 6'5 defender and LeBron was the center of the defensive attention he still led his Lakers team in:

-Points
-Assists
-Steals
-Blocks
-Game Score

AD led in Rebounds

So when you say "best" do you mean best rebounder on the Lakers? Because then and only then I could agree with you.

Exactly

[Bronbron23]

Anfernee Hardway best #2 and better than most #1 options? :lol

Are we talking about 21 and 7 PEAK Anfernee Hardaway? So basically less than Khris Middleton and worse defense.

Penny played 15 seasons in the NBA and he scored over 21 ppg...once :lol

Next

I said healthy all star penny who was way better than Middleton btw. That's a clear example on why stats dont mean much. And he was absolutely better than some teams first option now. Maybe not the better teams though. Name a better second option. Middleton isn't so you have anyone else?

[TheCorporation]

I said healthy all star penny who was way better than Middleton btw. That's a clear example on why stats dont mean much. And he was absolutely better than some teams first option now. Maybe not the better teams though. Name a better second option. Middleton isn't so you have anyone else?

Anfernee Hardaway's absolute peak was 21.3 ppg . His PEAK. He routinely scored less than 20 ppg. In fact, in 15 seasons he literally scored over 20 ppg once time. So let's see who can match that production :lol

https://i.postimg.cc/yYvDkzmB/20-ppg-lol.png

He is basically Spencer Dinwiddie. Sweet.

[Bronbron23]

Anfernee Hardaway's absolute peak was 21.3 ppg . His PEAK. He routinely scored less than 20 ppg. In fact, in 15 seasons he literally scored over 20 ppg once time. So let's see who can match that production :lol

https://i.postimg.cc/yYvDkzmB/20-ppg-lol.png

He is basically Spencer Dinwiddie. Sweet.

Right because stats say so. Your only exposing yourself if you actually think Middleton or spence are as good as peak penny.

[Roundball_Rock]

And so it begins



https://i.postimg.cc/rpv7H0g3/3ball-dodo.png

https://media.giphy.com/media/3P0oEX5oTmrkY/giphy.gif

Damn, banned 3x in the same day (he first came back as "Shawn Kemp")? :lol


Stopped by earlier and seen the mass accounts he created.

Is there a list of "new" users?


You've admitted to not watching any games in years.

Yet has concluded AD=Kareem without watching a single second of an AD game. :oldlol:


Pip as the best player on a team wouldn't even be a top 100.

Wow, surprised to see you say this. So if you have 0 rings (a questionable presumption--he likely would have 0 without MJ but it isn't a lock since there are a number of teams where he could have won on, especially if the Bulls had no super team) you go from top 30 to outside the top 100? That isn't how rankings work or else Horry and Havlicek would be 2-3 behind Russell.

If Pippen isn't top 100 that is damning of MJ's era since he racked up the 4th most all-NBA first team selections in the 90's (which includes a series of MJ fan favorites like Payton, Drexler, Ewing, Miller, Kemp, Stockton). It must be an extremely weak era if a guy who isn't top 100 is doing that. If MJ's era was that weak, why should we take his achievements at face value? LeBron is in an era where we have MJ fans saying a player equal or better than Kareem is considered a "sidekick" (to 35 year old LeBron ironically).

As an aside, I think MJ fans will play a key role in undermining MJ. Their arguments always lead back, one way or another, to the 90's being trash or today's era being awesome, even if inadvertently.


I said healthy all star penny who was way better than Middleton btw. That's a clear example on why stats dont mean much. And he was absolutely better than some teams first option now.

Different positions, but 1) Penny was behind Pippen in all-NBA voting every year--and you just said Pippen wasn't a top 100 caliber player 2) Penny crashed and burned as a #1 option. Pippen thrived--so what does that make Penny? Top 200?

As on aside, Pippen and Kemp were both forwards. Their primes overlapped from 1993-1998. Pippen was ahead of him every single year in all-NBA--so what does that make Kemp? Top 300?


Anfernee Hardaway's absolute peak was 21.3 ppg . His PEAK. He routinely scored less than 20 ppg. In fact, in 15 seasons he literally scored over 20 ppg once time.

Check his efficiency crash sans Shaq. Of course, PPG only matters for one 90's perimeter star. :lol

For the record, if we are talking peaks, Penny was the second best sidekick of the 90's but he lasted a grand total of 2 years as an elite "sidekick" and his prime was a mere 3 total years. Hard to be a factor when you burn out that quickly, unless you are Walton.

[Bronbron23]

Damn, banned 3x in the same day (he first came back as "Shawn Kemp")? :lol



Is there a list of "new" users?



Yet has concluded AD=Kareem without watching a single second of an AD game. :oldlol:



Wow, surprised to see you say this. So if you have 0 rings (a questionable presumption--he likely would have 0 without MJ but it isn't a lock since there are a number of teams where he could have won on, especially if the Bulls had no super team) you go from top 30 to outside the top 100? That isn't how rankings work or else Horry and Havlicek would be 2-3 behind Russell.

If Pippen isn't top 100 that is damning of MJ's era since he racked up the 4th most all-NBA first team selections in the 90's (which includes a series of MJ fan favorites like Payton, Drexler, Ewing, Miller, Kemp, Stockton). It must be an extremely weak era if a guy who isn't top 100 is doing that. If MJ's era was that weak, why should we take his achievements at face value? LeBron is in an era where we have MJ fans saying a player equal or better than Kareem is considered a "sidekick" (to 35 year old LeBron ironically).

As an aside, I think MJ fans will play a key role in undermining MJ. Their arguments always lead back, one way or another, to the 90's being trash or today's era being awesome, even if inadvertently.



Different positions, but 1) Penny was behind Pippen in all-NBA voting every year--and you just said Pippen wasn't a top 100 caliber player 2) Penny crashed and burned as a #1 option. Pippen thrived--so what does that make Penny? Top 200?

As on aside, Pippen and Kemp were both forwards. Their primes overlapped from 1993-1998. Pippen was ahead of him every single year in all-NBA--so what does that make Kemp? Top 300?



Check his efficiency crash sans Shaq. Of course, PPG only matters for one 90's perimeter star. :lol

For the record, if we are talking peaks, Penny was the second best sidekick of the 90's but he lasted a grand total of 2 years as an elite "sidekick" and his prime was a mere 3 total years. Hard to be a factor when you burn out that quickly, unless you are Walton.

ok well top 100 may have been a little dramatic but yes chips matter and the chances of him winning one as the teams best player would be slim. Most teams that win chips are either anchored by a great scorer or a great big. Pip was neither. Im not sure where he would be but im sure it wouldn't be where he is now where as mj still would be considered the best or a top 5. As far as penny and pip its honestly pretty close as far who was better at the time. Career wise pip crushed him but talent and impact wise i dont think pip was way better or anything. He was probably a better fit for that era and that bulls team. This era im not so sure. It may not have showed in the stats but penny was a better scorer and playmaker than pip. He'd be perfect for this era. Similar to tatum but a better playmaker. Pip was a monster defensively but he was very limited offensively.

As far as kemp like penny he was cut short so its hard to compare. At his best he was as good of a second option as almost anyone

[Roundball_Rock]

I looked at players ranked 21-40 on the most recent list (ESPN). It is an even split between players with rings and without rings. Moreover, we don't know what everyone's criteria is when they put together these lists. These lists usually come from a team of people voting--each person will have different criteria. Each player gets a 3-4 sentence blurb that doesn't tell us much about the player. That isn't the purpose. It is to give readers an idea of who the GOATs are, why they are GOATs, and how they compare relative to each other.

We know Backpick's criteria because it is one guy and because he does lengthy essays backed by tape and stats of each player and explains his reasoning and the pros and cons of each player, especially once he gets to the top 30. He simply is ranking the 40 best careers in NBA history--rangz not a factor. He has Pippen 25th--ahead of MJ darlings Stockton, Ewing, Drexler, Miller, and Payton (who doesn't make the top 40) to name a few. MJ fans don't like to hear it ("walls of BS"), but he lays out his criteria and applies it to Pippen and it makes a lot of sense.

We don't need rings to talk about how players were perceived when they were playing. Pippen and Kemp overlapped their primes from 1993-1998. That is 6 seasons. Pippen was considered better every year, yet we always hear how awesome Kemp was (what did he do?) while Pippen gets dissected and rips 24/7. Kemp was never a MVP candidate. Never all-NBA first team. He was all-NBA only three times total. He crashed and burned as a #1 option.


As far as kemp like penny he was cut short so its hard to compare. At his best he was as good of a second option as almost anyone

Kemp had a 6 year prime. That's plenty of a sample size. Plus, it is his own fault he got fat. :oldlol: Injuries affected Pippen too. His peak was abruptly ended by injuries late in the 96' season and then his prime ended after the 98' back injury (and some people argue 97' was his last prime year. I say 98', but his decline in 98' relative to 97' and 96' is obvious.). Pippen was an iron man but eventually the mileage took a toll and the injuries piled up starting late in 96' and it hurt his game. Kemp didn't get hurt. He just ate too many cheesburgers.

You guys always talk about scoring and offense. Kemp scored less than Pippen (Kemp had one top 20 scoring season, 12th, and he did it on terrible efficiency for a PF)...and didn't offer the playmaking Pippen did. Pippen was 8th in scoring in 94' and 10th in 95' before MJ came back and he was doing it on playoff teams. If he sucked at scoring, that again is damning as to MJ's era: if a bad scorer could be top 10 in scoring in both years as a first option that means the era had terrible scorers.

To me Penny was on Pippen's level--but it was such a brief run it has no historical relevance. If Penny never existed nothing of note changes in NBA history. To me Stockton is the second best sidekick of the 90's but his peak was very low for a top 40 all-time player (and he is top 25-30) but his longevity gets him higher than his peak warrants. He may be the only top 40 player to never be top 5 in MVP, for instance.

We just don't spend each day litigating the flaws of Kemp, Stockton, and Penny like we do with Pippen and whenever these other guys come up they are presented as flawless. In other words, since we hear "Scoring! Scoring!" Scoring!" with Pippen 24/7 the fact that he scored more than Kemp and more than Penny as #1 options is ignored because it is accepted as gospel that 1) Pippen sucked at scoring 2) No other 90's star did because they, evidently, had zero flaws.

[Bronbron23]

I looked at players ranked 21-40 on the most recent list (ESPN). It is an even split between players with rings and without rings. Moreover, we don't know what everyone's criteria is when they put together these lists. These lists usually come from a team of people voting--each person will have different criteria. Each player gets a 3-4 sentence blurb that doesn't tell us much about the player. That isn't the purpose. It is to give readers an idea of who the GOATs are, why they are GOATs, and how they compare relative to each other.

We know Backpick's criteria because it is one guy and because he does lengthy essays backed by tape and stats of each player and explains his reasoning and the pros and cons of each player, especially once he gets to the top 30. He simply is ranking the 40 best careers in NBA history--rangz not a factor. He has Pippen 25th--ahead of MJ darlings Stockton, Ewing, Drexler, Miller, and Payton (who doesn't make the top 40) to name a few. MJ fans don't like to hear it ("walls of BS"), but he lays out his criteria and applies it to Pippen and it makes a lot of sense.

We don't need rings to talk about how players were perceived when they were playing. Pippen and Kemp overlapped their primes from 1993-1998. That is 6 seasons. Pippen was considered better every year, yet we always hear how awesome Kemp was (what did he do?) while Pippen gets dissected and rips 24/7. Kemp was never a MVP candidate. Never all-NBA first team. He was all-NBA only three times total. He crashed and burned as a #1 option.



Kemp had a 6 year prime. That's plenty of a sample size. Plus, it is his own fault he got fat. :oldlol: Injuries affected Pippen too. His peak was abruptly ended by injuries late in the 96' season and then his prime ended after the 98' back injury (and some people argue 97' was his last prime year. I say 98', but his decline in 98' relative to 97' and 96' is obvious.). Pippen was an iron man but eventually the mileage took a toll and the injuries piled up starting late in 96' and it hurt his game. Kemp didn't get hurt. He just ate too many cheesburgers.

You guys always talk about scoring and offense. Kemp scored less than Pippen (Kemp had one top 20 scoring season, 12th, and he did it on terrible efficiency for a PF)...and didn't offer the playmaking Pippen did. Pippen was 8th in scoring in 94' and 10th in 95' before MJ came back and he was doing it on playoff teams. If he sucked at scoring, that again is damning as to MJ's era: if a bad scorer could be top 10 in scoring in both years as a first option that means the era had terrible scorers.

To me Penny was on Pippen's level--but it was such a brief run it has no historical relevance. If Penny never existed nothing of note changes in NBA history. To me Stockton is the second best sidekick of the 90's but his peak was very low for a top 40 all-time player (and he is top 25-30) but his longevity gets him higher than his peak warrants. He may be the only top 40 player to never be top 5 in MVP, for instance.

We just don't spend each day litigating the flaws of Kemp, Stockton, and Penny like we do with Pippen and whenever these other guys come up they are presented as flawless. In other words, since we hear "Scoring! Scoring!" Scoring!" with Pippen 24/7 the fact that he scored more than Kemp and more than Penny as #1 options is ignored because it is accepted as gospel that 1) Pippen sucked at scoring 2) No other 90's star did because they, evidently, had zero flaws.

Yes chips obviously matter and Pippen is a perfect example. He was a great defender but after that he wasn't special in any area. He was good. Good at passing, rebounding and scoring. Not great though. Most players rated as high as pip were one of the best at something. Usually passing or scoring. They also have accolades. Pip has nothing. No scoring titles, MVP's, dpoys, fmvps.

Tell me whats the difference between gary payton ans scottie pippen? Scoring and defense is pretty equal. Payton was a better passer and pip a better defender. They're not looked at the same though because pip has 6 chips.