Nikola Jokic an example of making others better. Bird couldnt play today? Unathletic?

[Round Mound]

Jokic is a suprestar today and Bird who was faster (in is 20s before injury), a better rebounder relative to position, a little better passer but certainly a better shooter all court wise, Bird was also tougher, a trash talker, more agressive, had more heart, hustled more and had even better leadership.

Bird couldn't play today? Bird in his prime = GOAT Team Player.

[Marchesk]

Doncic and Jokic dominating the modern NBA athlete.

Bird would be even better. He was ahead of his time.

[plowking]

Tougher based off what?
More heart based off what?
He isn't a better rebounder either.

He isn't a better passer from everywhere on the court. Jokic is bigger, stronger, and is able to use his size to create space for himself and his teammates.

[Round Mound]

Tougher based off what?
More heart based off what?
He isn't a better rebounder either.

He isn't a better passer from everywhere on the court. Jokic is bigger, stronger, and is able to use his size to create space for himself and his teammates.

Nobody played the game with more injuries than Bird: ever! Jokic is taller, stronger and heavier but he is slower than Bird aswell (in his 20s prior to injuries) Bird had hustle and heart but was also the most skilled SF Ever while being the Best Team Defender in the game. He was also the clutchest SF Ever!

In this era you can't play physical like before and Bird dominated that era.

Goes to show you that athleticism does not matter much if you don't make good use of it like Barkley did for example.

Jokic is like Walton but less athletic and without the defense and rim protection. That's how good Walton was without injuries.

[NBAGOAT]

Nobody played the game with more injuries than Bird: ever! Jokic is taller, stronger and heavier but he is slower than Bird aswell (in his 20s prior to injuries) Bird had hustle and heart but was also the most skilled SF Ever while being the Best Team Defender in the game. He was also the clutchest SF Ever!

In this era you can't play physical like before and Bird dominated that era.

Goes to show you that athleticism does not matter much if you don't make good use of it like Barkley did for example.

Jokic is like Walton but less athletic and without the defense and rim protection. That's how good Walton was without injuries.

walton is underrated but he cant shoot like jokic and he cant pass on the move. jokic often looks like a guard out there, they even run pindowns for him. bird is a decent comparison and ofc he can play in this era but keep in mind most people dont have jokic even top 5 in the league

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody old enough to have seen even old Bird ever said that. You’re arguing about 1986 with people born in 1997. I know it’s tempting to correct them but they don’t care. There is no evidence they will accept or point they will acknowledge because the entire anti Bird group is made of people born in the 90s or 2000s. You’re arguing with people who have strong convictions and no information. You’re gonna have a bad time.

[plowking]

Nobody played the game with more injuries than Bird: ever! Jokic is taller, stronger and heavier but he is slower than Bird aswell (in his 20s prior to injuries) Bird had hustle and heart but was also the most skilled SF Ever while being the Best Team Defender in the game. He was also the clutchest SF Ever!

In this era you can't play physical like before and Bird dominated that era.

Goes to show you that athleticism does not matter much if you don't make good use of it like Barkley did for example.

Jokic is like Walton but less athletic and without the defense and rim protection. That's how good Walton was without injuries.


You're comparing Jokic to someone he doesn't come close to playing like.

It is an absolutely terrible comparison.

Jokic does so many things differently to Bird.

As for Jokic being unathletic, that is just nonsense as well. How many 7 footers at his weight, move the way he does, while being that strong, and not to mention his hand-eye coordination. He isn't exactly slow with his first step either.

[Marchesk]

As for Jokic being unathletic, that is just nonsense as well. How many 7 footers at his weight, move the way he does, while being that strong, and not to mention his hand-eye coordination. He isn't exactly slow with his first step either.

He's not ****ing Dwight Howard out there. Dude is slow, plodding and jumps like two inches off the ground. But damn is he skilled.

[NuggetsFan]

One thing I've always found hilarious is all the old heads will point to the 3 point line and the less physical NBA defense. You'll see the point out how much easier it is for the guards. Yet they never give credit to C's. If the entire league is built around making the guards lives easier, which it is, than why isn't someone like Jokic given way more credit? .. Jokic is a true blue C that basically has Steve Nash like vision. Given the era he's developed an elite perimeter game, and been forced to defend the pick and roll like he's a SG in the 90's.

Imagine Jokic back in the day? Being allowed the time and freedom to work inside with his footwork and skill combined with all that strength. Lighting up a leauge geared towards guards. He's a C running the pick and roll ... as the ****ing ball handler lmao

[Kblaze8855]

The lack of big man credit isn’t due to the league being easier for them....it isn’t. It’s lack of competition. Embiid is the only reasonable center worth considering vs Jokic. If it’s 1994 we have Hakeem, Drob, Shaq, and Ewing for starters.

Its nobody’s fault...tall kids don’t wanna be centers now. Just saying. That’s probably why less credit is given far as their all time standing. Nobody wanted to give Dwight that status either because he took over when centers were dead.

[elementally morale]

Bird is Jokic on speed. He would easily be the best player in the league.

That said, I think Jokic is undersold still. You mentioned Bird having been a better rebounder relative to position. Well, in the playoffs... and I don't know the numbers and won't look them up... but Jokic is rebounding like crazy. he had 20+ today and it's not a fluke. And he is the same floor general Bird is. A worse shooter and unselfish to a fault. But not any less of a playmaker, which is crazy.

[r0drig0lac]

Nobody old enough to have seen even old Bird ever said that. You’re arguing about 1986 with people born in 1997. I know it’s tempting to correct them but they don’t care. There is no evidence they will accept or point they will acknowledge because the entire anti Bird group is made of people born in the 90s or 2000s. You’re arguing with people who have strong convictions and no information. You’re gonna have a bad time.
this

[NuggetsFan]

The lack of big man credit isn’t due to the league being easier for them....it isn’t. It’s lack of competition. Embiid is the only reasonable center worth considering vs Jokic. If it’s 1994 we have Hakeem, Drob, Shaq, and Ewing for starters.

Its nobody’s fault...tall kids don’t wanna be centers now. Just saying. That’s probably why less credit is given far as their all time standing. Nobody wanted to give Dwight that status either because he took over when centers were dead.

This is why it's so hard to take your posts seriously. Your just cleary biased about the old days. You don't think today's league is harder that they have to guard PG's and SG's on switching and defend the pick and roll like there Scottie Pippen? .. Seriously. Jokic has possessions where he's out there guarding Paul George or Donovan Mitchell as a 7 foooter.

Yeah he would have way more competition, but his competition would be the players he excels against. Look at what he did too Rudy Gobert. He doesn't have any issues facing C's. Yeah someone like Ewing is an absolute monster defensively but he matches up far better with him than he does a stretch 4 where he's going to get put in the pick and roll all night. He attempted 4.1 FT's per game. You think back in the day with his strength, footwork, offensive skillset he's not getting to the line more? Compare the league average FTA today, to back than. A guy like Jokic or even Embiid/Gobert etc. would live for those matchups compared to what that they have to deal with today. Imagine Shaq having to deal with Dame Lillard on switches half the game lmao

[Kblaze8855]

I dont care if you take me seriously. Im never even sure which fan with Nuggets or Nugz or whatever im talking to. I dont know why you even think im talking about a old days comparison. You said this:



You'll see the point out how much easier it is for the guards. Yet they never give credit to C's. If the entire league is built around making the guards lives easier, which it is, than why isn't someone like Jokic given way more credit?


And I told you why he(and others) get less credit.

Lack of competition.

Dwight is like a 3 time DPOY, whatever time all star, and led a finals team. He never did nor will get the usual credit a resume like that would get previous bigs....because when he was doing it centers had become a joke relative to the leagues the other greats played in.

Competition is what limits modern centers credit far as all time standing.

Youre the one making it a then vs now question. It doesnt matter which league was better. Facts are....they had better centers. None of the 7 footers in the 50-90s grew up trying to play like 2 guards. Thats normal now because being a center is seen as almost a failing. Where they put the big kid who cant handle or shoot. They dont wanna be Kareem. They wanna be KD.

So less great centers....less credit for being the best one. Goes for Jokic...Dwight before him....people even said it for Shaq before that in the 2000s. This isnt a new concept.

[And1AllDay]

Bird is Jokic on speed. He would easily be the best player in the league.

That said, I think Jokic is undersold still. You mentioned Bird having been a better rebounder relative to position. Well, in the playoffs... and I don't know the numbers and won't look them up... but Jokic is rebounding like crazy. he had 20+ today and it's not a fluke. And he is the same floor general Bird is. A worse shooter and unselfish to a fault. But not any less of a playmaker, which is crazy.

Riiiight

dude was outscored by his own teammates in the inflated low skill 80s
then dudes like pippen who are top 3 mvp voters would be like spencer dinwiddie or galinari per 3ball so weak era again

2000+ is the tough era
Kobe runs, duncan runs, lebron runs, warrior runs

no room for bird who cant even outscore his own team. he led team in scoring 2 of 5 finals

no thanks, sounds like a danillo gallinari to me

[Marchesk]

Imagine Shaq having to deal with Dame Lillard on switches half the game lmao

I can also imagine Jokic having to deal with Shaq, DRob or Hakeem. We'll see how things are next round.

[elementally morale]

no thanks, sounds like a danillo gallinari to me


It is past bedtime for you. Adults only, sorry. You have a test coming up tomorrow, junior. If you can't sleep, study.

[And1AllDay]

It is past bedtime for you. Adults only, sorry. You have a test coming up tomorrow, junior. If you can't sleep, study.

this guy picked bird over legoat :oldlol: time for YOUR bed

[NuggetsFan]

I can also imagine Jokic having to deal with Shaq, DRob or Hakeem. We'll see how things are next round.

I mean yeah .. Jokic would be far better off against those guys. His post defense is great. If Anthony Davis just bangs down low he'd be fine. Next series he'll get put in the pick and roll, face tons of switches, and be all over the court which will be difficult. AD could average 35 points and I wouldn't be shocked.

In the end Jokic will probably get the credit he deserves. 2 playoff runs and you already see the tide changing. He'll go down as the GOAT passing big men when all is said and done. He's only 25 and already in the mainstream conversation. Who knows how long his prime/peak lasts, but likely got another 6-10 years left of ridiculous passes.

[elementally morale]

I can also imagine Jokic having to deal with Shaq, DRob or Hakeem. We'll see how things are next round.

I think Jokic would do great against Shaq on offense. Jokic is not banging inside. He is passing, stretching the D. Shaq moves outside and interior defense is over, Jokic passing it to the cutter. On defense rhough... Jokic can't guard Shaq. But neither could anyone else. So it's hack-a-Shaq time for 48 minutes with 24 fouls to burn from the bench.

DRob and Hakeem have a better chance containing Jokic on offense.

[elementally morale]

this guy picked bird over legoat :oldlol: time for YOUR bed

Prime Bird is better than 2020 LeBron. Way better. Careeerwise I'd say LeBron has the edge.

[And1AllDay]

Prime Bird is better than 2020 LeBron. Way better. Careeerwise I'd say LeBron has the edge.

careerwise no one has edge over bron except maybe kobe

how tf are you saying prime bird is better than 2020 lebron? bird never hit 25p and 8a for a playoff run. lebron is at 27p and 9a :oldlol: stop it and he doing it on 55 %fg and 37% 3p

[elementally morale]

careerwise no one has edge over bron except maybe kobe

how tf are you saying prime bird is better than 2020 lebron? bird never hit 25p and 8a for a playoff run. lebron is at 27p and 9a :oldlol: stop it and he doing it on 55 %fg and 37% 3p


I saw him play. Live.

And no, watching a few games 20-30 years later is not the same. You are not in the moment. I have never seen Muhammad Ali live. But I saw Mike Tyson. I heard about Ali's greatness. Watched many of his fights. Still didn't quite get it. Was sure Tyson would knock him out in the 1st. However, I must have been wrong. I just can't tell.

Watching someone live is different.

LeBron has a great career. Insane longevity. Game... I don't like it. Well... most of the time I don't. But he sure is an all time very great. I think his resume is better than his ability was to play. His resume is top 3. He may even become the greatest if he wins 2 more rings. But the best? No, I've seen better.

[plowking]

I dont care if you take me seriously. Im never even sure which fan with Nuggets or Nugz or whatever im talking to. I dont know why you even think im talking about a old days comparison. You said this:





And I told you why he(and others) get less credit.

Lack of competition.

Dwight is like a 3 time DPOY, whatever time all star, and led a finals team. He never did nor will get the usual credit a resume like that would get previous bigs....because when he was doing it centers had become a joke relative to the leagues the other greats played in.

Competition is what limits modern centers credit far as all time standing.

Youre the one making it a then vs now question. It doesnt matter which league was better. Facts are....they had better centers. None of the 7 footers in the 50-90s grew up trying to play like 2 guards. Thats normal now because being a center is seen as almost a failing. Where they put the big kid who cant handle or shoot. They dont wanna be Kareem. They wanna be KD.

So less great centers....less credit for being the best one. Goes for Jokic...Dwight before him....people even said it for Shaq before that in the 2000s. This isnt a new concept.

Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Gobert, Bam, Vucevic, Nurkic, Drummond, Whiteside, Sabonis, Valanciunis, Kristaps, Adams, etc.

Why are we acting like there isn't a whole lot of good big men in the league? The way they are utilized in the game has changed, but there are plenty of great 7 footers in the game.

[NBAGOAT]

Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Gobert, Bam, Vucevic, Nurkic, Drummond, Whiteside, Sabonis, Valanciunis, Kristaps, Adams, etc.

Why are we acting like there isn't a whole lot of good big men in the league? The way they are utilized in the game has changed, but there are plenty of great 7 footers in the game.

towns really cant get respect from anyone :lol. tbf some of these guys arent too impressive like whiteside and adams. tbf bigs who cant guard the pnr will just get played off the floor quite a bit and it's really not easy.

[plowking]

towns really cant get respect from anyone :lol. tbf some of these guys arent too impressive like whiteside and adams. tbf bigs who cant guard the pnr will just get played off the floor quite a bit and it's really not easy.

Literally going off the top of my head. But yeah, a guy putting up 26/12 or whatever he did is clearly another one. An out and out athlete to boot as well.

[FKAri]

One thing I've always found hilarious is all the old heads will point to the 3 point line and the less physical NBA defense. You'll see the point out how much easier it is for the guards. Yet they never give credit to C's. If the entire league is built around making the guards lives easier, which it is, than why isn't someone like Jokic given way more credit? .. Jokic is a true blue C that basically has Steve Nash like vision. Given the era he's developed an elite perimeter game, and been forced to defend the pick and roll like he's a SG in the 90's.

Imagine Jokic back in the day? Being allowed the time and freedom to work inside with his footwork and skill combined with all that strength. Lighting up a leauge geared towards guards. He's a C running the pick and roll ... as the ****ing ball handler lmao

Ya I really dislike the discrediting of modern guards due to the rules being catered to them while simultaneously discrediting the bigs despite the rules hurting them. I get kblaze's point about lack of competition but you can't have it both ways. Imo the bigs and guards of today and the past were great, they were just used differently. And just the way small guards couldn't shine in the past like today, modern bigs can't shine like they could in the past.