Is Anthony Davis a top 5 sidekick ever?

[iamgine]

Topic.

[KennyPowers]

He is the Lakers #1 player. Currently better than LeBron.

[bullettooth]

He is the Lakers #1 player. Currently better than LeBron.

Quoted for truth.

[Axe]

Why of course

[Micku]

Who's top 5 and who is AD better than?
Kobe
Magic/Kareem
Mchale
Pippen
West
Curry/Durant
Wade

[WhiteKyrie]

He is the Lakers #1 player. Currently better than LeBron.
This. Also love the username

[NBAGOAT]

Who's top 5 and who is AD better than?
Kobe
Magic/Kareem
Mchale
Pippen
West
Curry/Durant
Wade

mchale and pippen. 2011 wade is debatable

[warriorfan]

Yes

[3ball]

AD = Tim Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, aka the top caliber of big man ever

the stats show that he's easily the #1 sidekick ever.. no one in history got a 36 PER, let alone a siddkick

[Gohan]

Y’all should really stop trying to downplay everyone plays with lebron. He also has the right to play with good players whether it’s cowardly or not

[Turbo Slayer]

Y’all should really stop trying to downplay everyone plays with lebron. He also has the right to play with good players whether it’s cowardly or not :applause:

[3ball]

Y’all should really stop trying to downplay everyone plays with lebron. He also has the right to play with good players whether it’s cowardly or not

:facepalm:... horace grant is a "good" player

AD is tim duncan, aka a top player that lebron is supposed to compete AGAINST, not team up with

AD leads the Lakers in everything and has a 36 PER (not a sidekick)

also, people forget that 2010 wade was #2 in PER, BPM/VORP/WS, aka the #2 producer, aka the best help possible..

why respect someone that teams up with the #2 player, and gets a Jordan or Duncan-level teammate?

[tpols]

kobe, wade, and durant are the only guys I think you can make a legit case for.

but yea... in the playoffs he hasn't been the sidekick. And that gap is going to widen as things go on.

[Roundball_Rock]

2011 wade is debatable

Why do people keep acting like 2012-2014 Wade didn't exist? He had a four year run as a "sidekick", not a one year run that people keep defining the four years by.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

Why do people keep acting like 2012-2014 Wade didn't exist? He had a four year run as a "sidekick", not a one year run that people keep defining the four years by.

Because Wade was only great in 2011. He was very good in 2011 and another reason why Lebron choking in the Finals that year was such a letdown because Wade was great.

2012-2014 Wade was a good player and an all star, but can't be considered a top 5 sidekick of all time.


As for Anthony Davis, he isn't a sidekick and neither is Lebron. It isn't always a Batman-Robin situation. Sometimes it is a dynamic Duo with 2 stars. Kobe was a sidekick during the 2000 title run, but 01 and 02 he was a superstar who might not have been as valuable as Shaq, but it was close. They were a dynamic duo who both had their moments.

[Roundball_Rock]

Because Wade was only great in 2011. He was very good in 2011 and another reason why Lebron choking in the Finals that year was such a letdown because Wade was great.

2012-2014 Wade was a good player and an all star, but can't be considered a top 5 sidekick of all time.

Yup--2011 Wade and pre-LeBron Wade is conflated with what Wade actually was for the bulk of LeBron's time in Miami to hype Wade up (mostly by MJ stans).


As for Anthony Davis, he isn't a sidekick and neither is Lebron. It isn't always a Batman-Robin situation. Sometimes it is a dynamic Duo with 2 stars.

I agree but it is never perceived that way, though. The only exceptions are cases like Magic/Kareem and Kobe/Shaq where large fan bases/media revise history decades later but in real time no one thought Magic was "the man" in 1980 or Kobe even in 2002. Just look at MVP voting in those years.

This "LeBron vs. AD" thing is a conversation among NBA diehards and LeBron haters. If the Lakers win, all the headlines will be about LeBron winning. Just look at history. Team championships are referred to years later as solo achievements. So it is "Jordan beat..." or "Russell won..." not that their stacked teams won.

The Batman-Robin thing is dumb but NBA fans are obsessed with it. Did anyone watch Batman? Robin is basically a subordinate of Batman who Batman tells what to do. That isn't what NBA teams are. Davis isn't a subordinate of LeBron, Durant wasn't Curry's boss, etc. To me, LeBron-Davis are more like Batman and Superman teaming up.

[light]

The potential is certainly there, bursting at the seams.

LeBron and AD may be the best duo ever.

But they have to win something first before we start talking about how great they are as a duo.

[light]

As for Anthony Davis, he isn't a sidekick and neither is Lebron. It isn't always a Batman-Robin situation. Sometimes it is a dynamic Duo with 2 stars.

I don't think that describes their dynamic. LeBron is the unquestioned leader and general and Anthony Davis is subordinate to him.

It is a master-apprentice Jedi relationship where the apprentice is also incredibly powerful, but there is a clear hierarchy.

[Mask the Embiid]

1.Jordan
2.Durant
3.Kareem
4.Cousy
5.Davis

So yeah i guess he's up there

[Roundball_Rock]

The dynamics vary in each case and they all get simplified and lumped into a one size fits all "Batman-Robin" rubric. For instance, per Phil Jackson, Pippen was the "quarterback of the defense" (e.g., he told his teammates what to do), "directed the offense", and was "our voice." Does that sound like Robin? I don't remember Robin doing anything like this.

Or look at Draymond and the Warriors. I guess he would be Alfred under this rubric for 15', 16'. Not sure what he becomes after that. :lol He played a major leadership role on the team. Durant didn't lead anything--that is his nature and he admitted publicly he didn't want to be a leader--but he is remembered as "Batman."

Or Kawhi. We watched the games. What was Kawhi doing out there? Kawhi is a robot. Batman wasn't a silent robot. Kawhi, like KD but for different reasons, does not have the personality required to lead co-workers (that is what they are--they aren't employees or subordinates of these guys--Kawhi does not have the power to fire PG and Durant can't demote Klay, etc.).

[Kblaze8855]

Jerry West put up 41ppg in the playoffs and went to the finals with Baylor injured not that anyone cares....


It would be nice if people could split these things up from moment to moment success. If you asked Davis vs Magic, West, Wade, Kobe, and Curry or Durant a year ago you get mostly laughed at. Being on a better team is not getting better personally. He had the same skill set with worse teammates who can impact everything from numbers to winning.

I just wanna know...was he better than Magic/Wade/Kareem/Kobe types a year ago....and if so...why weren’t you all saying so? And if not....what you think he got better at over the summer to vault from top 30-50 maybe into the top 3-10 all time. I won’t discount the possibly you think he improved. But to go to Mt Rushmore from where he was?

I assume you have something very specific you noticed in his game that got a lot better.

Id just like to know what it is....or if your basketball understanding didn’t allow you to see past his situation and realize he was Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe tier already?

Which is it?

Was he always top 5-10 ever or did he just improve massively in the weeks between leaving the pelicans and arriving at laker camp?

I’ll accept either answer. But if it’s he was always top tier all time I’d like to know why you didn’t feel a need to call out the injustice of him not being considered it the last few years....and if he wasn’t...I’d like to know what you think he got better at and how it happened so quickly when his jersey changed.

[Basketball r Us]

Hahahaha.....Lakers' so called sidekick is top 5 player in the NBA..... ah ok.

[3ball]

Jerry West put up 41ppg in the playoffs and went to the finals with Baylor injured not that anyone cares....


It would be nice if people could split these things up from moment to moment success. If you asked Davis vs Magic, West, Wade, Kobe, and Curry or Durant a year ago you get mostly laughed at. Being on a better team is not getting better personally. He had the same skill set with worse teammates who can impact everything from numbers to winning.

I just wanna know...was he better than Magic/Wade/Kareem/Kobe types a year ago....and if so...why weren’t you all saying so? And if not....what you think he got better at over the summer to vault from top 30-50 maybe into the top 3-10 all time. I won’t discount the possibly you think he improved. But to go to Mt Rushmore from where he was?

I assume you have something very specific you noticed in his game that got a lot better.

Id just like to know what it is....or if your basketball understanding didn’t allow you to see past his situation and realize he was Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe tier already?

Which is it?

Was he always top 5-10 ever or did he just improve massively in the weeks between leaving the pelicans and arriving at laker camp?

I’ll accept either answer. But if it’s he was always top tier all time I’d like to know why you didn’t feel a need to call out the injustice of him not being considered it the last few years....and if he wasn’t...I’d like to know what you think he got better at and how it happened so quickly when his jersey changed.

^^^ that's my argument in a nutshell against pippen - this guy was ordinary if not for mj and the triangle - the winning splotlight simply inflated him (just like you're saying about AD)

MJ could've won with any good 2nd option and even some shitty ones, so a defensive Larry Hughes-type that frequently underperforms is more than enough..

Otoh, AD never underperforms.. he actually won a game from the KD Warriors in 18', while lebron was swept and beaten by record amount... and AD might achieve the best playoff stats of all time this season..

so your argument applies to Pippen, not AD

[Roundball_Rock]

I just wanna know...was he better than Magic/Wade/Kareem/Kobe types a year ago....and if so...why weren’t you all saying so? And if not....what you think he got better at over the summer to vault from top 30-50 maybe into the top 3-10 all time. I won’t discount the possibly you think he improved. But to go to Mt Rushmore from where he was?

I assume you have something very specific you noticed in his game that got a lot better.

Id just like to know what it is....or if your basketball understanding didn’t allow you to see past his situation and realize he was Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe tier already?

Which is it?

Was he always top 5-10 ever or did he just improve massively in the weeks between leaving the pelicans and arriving at laker camp?

I’ll accept either answer. But if it’s he was always top tier all time I’d like to know why you didn’t feel a need to call out the injustice of him not being considered it the last few years....and if he wasn’t...I’d like to know what you think he got better at and how it happened so quickly when his jersey changed.

He is in his 8th season in the NBA and suddenly has all these "fans" who "discovered" him in year 8. :oldlol: Great questions but we know you won't get any legit answers.

What makes the Davis push amusing is its futility. Basketball history shows one player gets all the credit for chips and that player will be LeBron if the Lakers win. You have guys like Bill Simmons (and I note him because I respect him but find this disappointing) discussing past NBA champions or series as if they were boxing or tennis. Ali beat Frazier. Holyfield beat Tyson. Sampras beat Agassi and...Jordan beat Barkley. Walton beat Kareem. Etc. Forget teammates. The team's name doesn't even get mentioned. Just one guy who "beat" another guy in a series or won a title all by himself.

That is what would be the best thing about the Heat winning. All this "one man wins alone" BS and then the same people have to explain how that logic doesn't apply to Butler, unless he suddenly gets elevated to the same plane as LeBron, Durant, Curry, Dirk, Kobe, and so on.

[tpols]

Was he always top 5-10 ever or did he just improve massively in the weeks between leaving the pelicans and arriving at laker camp?


More fake news fellas...

AD was ranked top 5 on the pelicans.

link


There’s a case to be made for Davis (28.1 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 2.3 APG) as the third- or fourth-best player in the league, and it goes like this: No other player—not LeBron James, not Kevin Durant, not anyone—is so consistently dominant on both sides of the ball. Davis could win Defensive Player of the Year while leading the league in scoring. He could be the captain of a top-five offense, the anchor of a top-five defense, or both. We’re nearing the pantheon days of Davis’s career—the beginning of his entry as an all-time great player, beginning with his MVP candidacy in the season to come.

The pushback is largely a matter of respecting accomplishment. Stephen Curry and James Harden not only have all the markers of elite play, but a deeper superstar body of work and the postseason receipts to validate it. You don’t wave off two of the best offensive players in NBA history just because Davis is better than he’s ever been. A certain level of respect is owed—particularly when both Curry and Harden do so much to make their teammates’ lives easier.

If there is any slight against Davis, it’s that his position makes it hard for him to touch as many possessions as a player like Curry or Harden. Guards who can initiate offense will always be slightly more accessible. Passing gives both a direct means of influencing a play’s outcome, to say nothing of the gravity they exert idly. Davis doesn’t really have that in his game, and that’s fine; allowing others to handle the ball frees Davis of the responsibility, allowing him to instead use his speed to its greatest advantage. Opposing bigs are at a loss when they’re forced to chase Davis, a 6’10” gazelle, around staggered screens to contest his jumper. You can use Davis in all the ways you’d use a high-scoring wing, save that he also has the face-up game to rule the mid-post and the finishing ability to dominate out of the pick-and-roll. There is very little on a basketball court that Davis can’t do.

Part of what makes Davis so widely useful is that his shots are so difficult to contest. There aren’t many players who can meet Davis at the rim and make any kind of difference. When he goes to the block, he can’t be pushed around. Davis is taller and stronger than most of the players who guard him, and he understands how to put space between himself and his defender. How can one even combat that? To guard Davis is, really, to be at his mercy. You could transplant his skill set to any roster in the league and find room for him to thrive. Any coach running any system could build its concepts around Davis. His stardom is situation agnostic, and completely undeniable. — RM


AD has been known as a superstar for a long while.

[3ball]

He is in his 8th season in the NBA and suddenly has all these "fans" who "discovered" him in year 8. :oldlol:

everyone needs help - albiet, lebron is clearly overkill - both guys are overkill for any elite 1st option to have

and now it's been revealed to ALL (not just people like me) that the Lakers are far better than everyone else and will win easily.. a ring gifted to lebron, like I said all along.. you should feel a little ashamed that the facts continually support my historical information

[sdot_thadon]

Jerry West put up 41ppg in the playoffs and went to the finals with Baylor injured not that anyone cares....


It would be nice if people could split these things up from moment to moment success. If you asked Davis vs Magic, West, Wade, Kobe, and Curry or Durant a year ago you get mostly laughed at. Being on a better team is not getting better personally. He had the same skill set with worse teammates who can impact everything from numbers to winning.

I just wanna know...was he better than Magic/Wade/Kareem/Kobe types a year ago....and if so...why weren’t you all saying so? And if not....what you think he got better at over the summer to vault from top 30-50 maybe into the top 3-10 all time. I won’t discount the possibly you think he improved. But to go to Mt Rushmore from where he was?

I assume you have something very specific you noticed in his game that got a lot better.

Id just like to know what it is....or if your basketball understanding didn’t allow you to see past his situation and realize he was Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe tier already?

Which is it?

Was he always top 5-10 ever or did he just improve massively in the weeks between leaving the pelicans and arriving at laker camp?

I’ll accept either answer. But if it’s he was always top tier all time I’d like to know why you didn’t feel a need to call out the injustice of him not being considered it the last few years....and if he wasn’t...I’d like to know what you think he got better at and how it happened so quickly when his jersey changed.

You know the answer, however it is entertaining to peel layers off weirdos...

[BigtimeNBAFan]

Yup--2011 Wade and pre-LeBron Wade is conflated with what Wade actually was for the bulk of LeBron's time in Miami to hype Wade up (mostly by MJ stans).



I agree but it is never perceived that way, though. The only exceptions are cases like Magic/Kareem and Kobe/Shaq where large fan bases/media revise history decades later but in real time no one thought Magic was "the man" in 1980 or Kobe even in 2002. Just look at MVP voting in those years.

This "LeBron vs. AD" thing is a conversation among NBA diehards and LeBron haters. If the Lakers win, all the headlines will be about LeBron winning. Just look at history. Team championships are referred to years later as solo achievements. So it is "Jordan beat..." or "Russell won..." not that their stacked teams won.

The Batman-Robin thing is dumb but NBA fans are obsessed with it. Did anyone watch Batman? Robin is basically a subordinate of Batman who Batman tells what to do. That isn't what NBA teams are. Davis isn't a subordinate of LeBron, Durant wasn't Curry's boss, etc. To me, LeBron-Davis are more like Batman and Superman teaming up.

Yeah I mean the analogy works when you have 2 star players, but one is clearly above the other. Pippen was a star player, but Jordan was clearly the Alpha guy on the team. Pau Gasol was all nba on both Laker titles, but it was clearly Kobe's team.

And sure with Kobe and Shaq, Kobe was widely perceived as the sidekick until he won titles as the clear leader, than history gave him credit for 5 rings when for years it was "he won titles, but only because of Shaq." In reality they were fairly close to equal during the 01 and 02 titles and even though Shaq was the more valuable player, I wouldn't call them Batman and Robin or that Kobe was Shaq's sidekick.

[Roundball_Rock]

You know the answer, however it is entertaining to peel layers off weirdos...

Yup. It isn't like AD came out of nowhere. Going into this season he was a 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA (all first teams), an all-star game MVP, and had recorded two top 5 MVP finishes (3rd and 5th). Everyone knew he was a great player yet we didn't hear much about him until he teamed up with LeBron. It was the same dynamic with Irving. No one cared about him before LeBron returned to Cleveland either.


Yeah I mean the analogy works when you have 2 star players, but one is clearly above the other. Pippen was a star player, but Jordan was clearly the Alpha guy on the team.

The "beta" guy was telling the "alpha" guy what to do on defense? Does Gronk tell Brady what to do? No, that is the job of the quarterback--exactly how Jackson described Pippen's role on defense (he also said he "directed" the offense--a "beta" "directing"?!). See how the comic book and wolfpack comps keep breaking down when scrutinized in a basketball context?


In reality they were fairly close to equal during the 01 and 02 titles and even though Shaq was the more valuable player, I wouldn't call them Batman and Robin or that Kobe was Shaq's sidekick.

That's because these terms are meaningless, hence the inconsistencies in their application. Kobe was a "sidekick" in the usually understood meaning of the term: the clear second best player, even if he was a superstar in his own right. It took a non-stop decade long push from Kobe stans to revise that history. AD has no stans to do this for him...

[BigtimeNBAFan]

I don't think that describes their dynamic. LeBron is the unquestioned leader and general and Anthony Davis is subordinate to him.

It is a master-apprentice Jedi relationship where the apprentice is also incredibly powerful, but there is a clear hierarchy.

There is a hierarchy, but when it is 2 elite players I wouldn't use the term sidekick. Anthony Davis led the Lakers in the season in Points, Rebounds, Blocks and Steals. He was first team all nba and has been all nba four times. He is a superstar in this league. There isn't always a sidekick. Durant and Steph is another example. They were 2 MVPS in their prime. They played together, but one wasn't subservient to the other.

The Lakers have 2 superstars and a bunch of role players. That should be enough to win a title this year, we'll see.

[Roundball_Rock]

There is a hierarchy, but when it is 2 elite players I wouldn't use the term sidekick. Anthony Davis led the Lakers in the season in Points, Rebounds, Blocks and Steals. He was first team all nba and has been all nba four times. He is a superstar in this league. There isn't always a sidekick. Durant and Steph is another example. They were 2 MVPS in their prime. They played together, but one wasn't subservient to the other.

The Lakers have 2 superstars and a bunch of role players. That should be enough to win a title this year, we'll see.

The same logic could apply in other cases. LeBron/AD are the 8th set of teammates to make all-NBA first team together. People are acting like this is a unique scenario. LeBron will finish 2nd in MVP and Davis likely will be 6th. This isn't Magic and old KAJ finishing 3rd and 4th. There is a large gap. I bet Davis won't get a single first or second place vote.

Curry and Green were the clear leaders of the Warriors. Durant was fine with that set up. He publicly stated he didn't want to lead, didn't want to be the face of a franchise, etc. Why are we acting like he and Curry were the same then? They were similar in talent level but that is about it. Durant and Kawhi have elite talent but lack the personality and willingness to be leaders.

Is, say, George "subservient" to Kawhi? Is Kawhi going to cut George's salary as punishment for his poor playoffs? Is Kawhi going to fire him? Demote him to the bench? No to all because George doesn't work for Kawhi--his boss is Balmer and to a lesser extent Rivers.

[Kblaze8855]

More fake news fellas...

AD was ranked top 5 on the pelicans.

link




AD has been known as a superstar for a long while.

A lot of people are known as superstars. Few people are known as Magic/Kareem/Kobe/Lebron/whoever you put on that level. With Curry, Lebron, Leonard, Harden, and Durant he was not an easy top 5 much less top 5 ever which is roughly the level people are putting him on now for no reason but a weird Lebron obsession.

AD is nice. But the idea he’s better than Kobe and whoever else is on your GOAT #2 list seems to be coming specifically from a certain group of people. People who likely would not have had him too 10 all time last year....despite being essentially the same player.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

Yup. It isn't like AD came out of nowhere. Going into this season he was a 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA (all first teams), an all-star game MVP, and had recorded two top 5 MVP finishes (3rd and 5th). Everyone knew he was a great player yet we didn't hear much about him until he teamed up with LeBron. It was the same dynamic with Irving. No one cared about him before LeBron returned to Cleveland either.



The "beta" guy was telling the "alpha" guy what to do on defense? Does Gronk tell Brady what to do? No, that is the job of the quarterback--exactly how Jackson described Pippen's role on defense (he also said he "directed" the offense--a "beta" "directing"?!). See how the comic book and wolfpack comps keep breaking down when scrutinized in a basketball context?



That's because these terms are meaningless, hence the inconsistencies in their application. Kobe was a "sidekick" in the usually understood meaning of the term: the clear second best player, even if he was a superstar in his own right. It took a non-stop decade long push from Kobe stans to revise that history. AD has no stans to do this for him...

Yeah I think we agree more than we disagree. I would say Jordan was the clear Alpha on the Bulls, but yes Pippen was far more valuable than some give him credit for. He anchored the defense and was one of the most complete players of the era. That is why the Bulls were still a 55 win team without Jordan.

And yes the term sidekick often doesn't apply when there is a team with multiple stars. The fact anyone would say a Curry or Durant were a sidekick to the other is ridiculous.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

A lot of people are known as superstars. Few people are known as Magic/Kareem/Kobe/Lebron/whoever you put on that level. With Curry, Lebron, Leonard, Harden, and Durant he was not an easy top 5 much less top 5 ever which is roughly the level people are putting him on now for no reason but a weird Lebron obsession.

AD is nice. But the idea he’s better than Kobe and whoever else is on your GOAT #2 list seems to be coming specifically from a certain group of people. People who likely would not have had him too 10 all time last year....despite being essentially the same player.

AD is a star, but yeah the Kareem comparisons started after the Rockets series with the Clippers sputtering when the Lakers took over as the favorites. These people hate Lebron so were saying Portland would beat him than Houston would beat him. They don't have faith in the 3 remaining teams, so they are now saying AD is one of the greatest of all time.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's the point, tpols. :facepalm Davis was balling in this league for years, he was recognized as a superstar yet people like 3ball, you, IMKobe, Samurai/Coach, et al. did not give a damn about him until this season, his 8th in the league. Now you all are saying he is better than Kareem, the GOAT.


Yeah I think we agree more than we disagree.

We do. :cheers: I come from a distinct minority: I have always had a more nuanced approach to the "sidekick" thing than 90% of basketball fans. People have their entire careers dismissed as "sidekicks" in favor of clearly inferior players who were "the man" playing with less talent (e.g., arguing Miller over McHale :oldlol: ).

LeBron is more important to the Lakers but should it really matter? The Lakers can't win without either of LeBron or Davis. So what is the big deal about giving one player more credit when both are indispensable to winning the ring (expected ring by people who hate LeBron in this case) whose credit is at dispute?

LeBron has shown he can succeed with a range of teammates. That is a credit, not a discredit to him.

[MaxPlayer]

AD is a star, but yeah the Kareem comparisons started after the Rockets series with the Clippers sputtering when the Lakers took over as the favorites. These people hate Lebron so were saying Portland would beat him than Houston would beat him. They don't have faith in the 3 remaining teams, so they are now saying AD is one of the greatest of all time.

Sadly this is precisely accurate, and it's crazy how everything always seems to come back to LeBron.

What are we going to talk about after he retires?

[BigtimeNBAFan]

That's the point, tpols. :facepalm Davis was balling in this league for years, he was recognized as a superstar yet people like 3ball, you, IMKobe, Samurai/Coach, et al. did not give a damn about him until this season, his 8th in the league.



We do. :cheers: I come from a distinct minority: I have always had a more nuanced approach to the "sidekick" thing than 90% of basketball fans. People have their entire careers dismissed as "sidekicks" in favor of clearly inferior players who were "the man" playing with less talent (e.g., arguing Miller over McHale :oldlol: ).

LeBron is more important to the Lakers but should it really matter? The Lakers can't win without either of LeBron or Davis. So what is the big deal about giving one player more credit when both are indispensable to winning the ring (expected ring by people who hate LeBron in this case) whose credit is at dispute?

LeBron has shown he can succeed with a range of teammates. That is a credit, not a discredit to him.
Pretty much. They are close to equally valuable and both will have to be great if they are going to finish the job this year. And yeah it is ridiculous to try and diminish Lebron because he has a great teammate. It is like how the Jordan cultists spend their days hating on Pippen instead of just acknowledging Jordan was great, but needed another star player to win 6 rings along with a great defensive/rebounder in Horace Grant the first 3 and Rodman for the second 3.

[tpols]

A lot of people are known as superstars. Few people are known as Magic/Kareem/Kobe/Lebron/whoever you put on that level. With Curry, Lebron, Leonard, Harden, and Durant he was not an easy top 5 much less top 5 ever which is roughly the level people are putting him on now for no reason but a weird Lebron obsession.

AD is nice. But the idea he’s better than Kobe and whoever else is on your GOAT #2 list seems to be coming specifically from a certain group of people. People who likely would not have had him too 10 all time last year....despite being essentially the same player.

Top 5 ever for sidekicks? How many 2nd options have been top 5 players in the league? Kareem, Kobe, Wade, and Durant since 1980.

So AD definitely has a case, and anyone debating otherwise is being disingenuous.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

Sadly this is precisely accurate, and it's crazy how everything always seems to come back to LeBron.

What are we going to talk about after he retires?

When he retires it depends on which type of Lebron hater. Part of the group that hates Lebron are Jordan cultists and these people will move on trashing whoever is "the next." Part of this is the media's fault with their obsession with comparing players to Jordan. You don't see this nearly to the same degree in other sports with great players. Tom Brady might've been compared to Joe Montana or other great quarterbacks, but it wasn't literal daily debates like it is in basketball on shows like First take and other shows.

[NBAGOAT]

Top 5 ever for sidekicks? How many 2nd options have been top 5 players in the league? Kareem, Kobe, Wade, and Durant since 1980.

So AD definitely has a case, and anyone debating otherwise is being disingenuous.

Pippen and mchale/Parrish maybe but yea ads better than all those guys peak wise imo.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen and mchale/Parrish maybe but yea ads better than all those guys peak wise imo.

Magic, Kareem, McHale, Pippen, Kobe, Wade, Westbrook, Curry, Davis, Penny. That is a not an insignificant list: 10 guys in 40 years so what we are seeing with Davis is not something we haven't seen many times before. Also note that the pace is accelerating. Wade, Westbrook, Curry, Davis all in the last decade alone.



Pretty much. They are close to equally valuable and both will have to be great if they are going to finish the job this year. And yeah it is ridiculous to try and diminish Lebron because he has a great teammate. It is like how the Jordan cultists spend their days hating on Pippen instead of just acknowledging Jordan was great, but needed another star player to win 6 rings along with a great defensive/rebounder in Horace Grant the first 3 and Rodman for the second 3.

Yup, agree on all your points. I will give LeBron stans some credit: they aren't crusading against Davis or Wade 24/7 like MJ stans do with Pippen (who hasn't played with MJ in 22 years).


When he retires it depends on which type of Lebron hater. Part of the group that hates Lebron are Jordan cultists and these people will move on trashing whoever is "the next." Part of this is the media's fault with their obsession with comparing players to Jordan. You don't see this nearly to the same degree in other sports with great players. Tom Brady might've been compared to Joe Montana or other great quarterbacks, but it wasn't literal daily debates like it is in basketball on shows like First take and other shows.

Yeah, it is purely driven by LeBron's threat to MJ. Remember when MJ stans went after Kobe 24/7 when he was the threat?

Good point but they are turning Brady into the MJ of football so we may see more of that, especially after he retires and people cling to their past via him and he starts facing "threats." MJ stans were fine when he was unchallenged.


So AD definitely has a case, and anyone debating otherwise is being disingenuous.

This is the same person who said AD>Kareem. :lol

[tpols]

Pippen and mchale/Parrish maybe but yea ads better than all those guys peak wise imo.

Yup agreed.

McHale didn't have AD's defense, and Pippen sure as hell didn't have his offense.

It's funny how Blaze and rockhead are just brushing it off as some ho hum every year event. There's literally only been 5 pairings of this superstar caliber in the last 40 years.

[KD7]

As a LeBron stan i think current AD is arguably the greatest sidekick ever.

He's a f*cking monster, like a stronger more offensive potent Kevin Garnett. He's on pace to having the greatest peak ever for a power forward and the numbers back it up

[KD7]

Who's top 5 and who is AD better than?
Kobe
Magic/Kareem
Mchale
Pippen
West
Curry/Durant
Wade
Give me current AD over all of those players

[NBAGOAT]

Yup agreed.

McHale didn't have AD's defense, and Pippen sure as hell didn't have his offense.

It's funny how Blaze and rockhead are just brushing it off as some ho hum every year event. There's literally only been 5 pairings of this superstar caliber in the last 40 years.

Well not that special since the lakers don’t have any other star. not to disparage the role players who have played well so far but these lakers aren’t going be brought up much in all time team rankings.

Shaq/Kobe was likely even better than lebron/ad and only one of their years is considered an all time team. We know bird/mchale to name one had great talent around them

[tpols]

Well not that special since the lakers don’t have any other star. not to disparage the role players who have played well so far but these lakers aren’t going be brought up much in all time team rankings.

Shaq/Kobe was likely even better than lebron/ad and only one of their years is considered an all time team. We know bird/mchale to name one had great talent around them

True but every time there's been a top 5 pairing like this, they always ringed.

Magic and Kareem multiple rings.
Shaq and Kobe multiple rings.
Wade and Lebron multiple rings.
Durant and Curry multiple rings.

So it's hard to count LA out right now when history shows us how rare having two top 5 players on the same team is, and how they always won championships.

It would take a Dallas or San Antonio style underdog performance of the ages for Nuggets, Heat or Celtics to beat them. They've arguably got the two best players out of all of the remaining teams combined lmao... that's ridiculous. They don't have to beat Shaq/Kobe or Bird/McHale/Parrish to win the ring.

[3ball]

I agree that Shaq/Kobe compares

so the expectation should've been 3-peat.. instead, the media lied and said the clippers and bucks would win to legitimize lebron getting Duncan as a teammate (handed the championship)

[NBAGOAT]

True but every time there's been a top 5 pairing like this, they always ringed.

Magic and Kareem multiple rings.
Shaq and Kobe multiple rings.
Wade and Lebron multiple rings.
Durant and Curry multiple rings.

So it's hard to count LA out right now when history shows us how rare having two top 5 players on the same team is, and how they always won championships.

It would take a Dallas or San Antonio style underdog performance of the ages for Nuggets, Heat or Celtics to beat them. They've arguably got the two best players out of all of the remaining teams combined lmao... that's ridiculous. They don't have to beat Shaq/Kobe or Bird/McHale/Parrish to win the ring.

Yea the lakers are definitely clear favorites after the clips lost. You won’t get any disagreement from me there. There is actually a way they could lose even if bron/ad play well though unlikely, role guys just have the shoot really poorly while the other team is on fire. Heat/Celtics more likely to pull that off imo. Denver will always play some iffy shooters like Craig millsap grant

[KD7]

I agree that Shaq/Kobe compares

so the expectation should've been 3-peat.. instead, the media lied and said the clippers and bucks would win to legitimize lebron getting Duncan as a teammate (handed the championship)

Where would you rank LeBron if he 3-peats with the Lakers?

[3ball]

Yea the lakers are definitely clear favorites after the clips lost.



no, the clippers poor performance shows they were overrated and should never have been favored

you must acknowledge that first

you can't simply move on to another erroneous prediction..

so the results prove the correct narrative, aka the Lakers acquired Tim Duncan to pair with lebron, and therefore should've been favored from the jump (and vegas infact did favor them upon receiving timmy)

[Roundball_Rock]

Well not that special since the lakers don’t have any other star. not to disparage the role players who have played well so far but these lakers aren’t going be brought up much in all time team rankings.

If it has happened 4 times since 2011 it can't be that unusual...

It is interesting the Celtics have come up a few times. Without Bird that "great cast" was a .500 team that couldn't get out the first round.


Magic and Kareem multiple rings.
Shaq and Kobe multiple rings.
Wade and Lebron multiple rings.
Durant and Curry multiple rings.

The LeBron-era Heat won after Wade ceased to be a top 5 player (of course your agenda demands pretending 12' and 13' Wade was superstar Wade). Kareem/Magic weren't top 5 every year the Lakers won. Kobe wasn't top 5 in 00'.

Shaq, Penny won nothing and neither did KD and Westbrook. You are cherry picking examples to push specific agendas (including fake top 5 pairings when convenient, like 12' and 13' Wade, and excluding top 5 pairings when inconvenient like Jordan/Pippen. Not a single belief: every word is agenda driven). These people don't give a damn about "sidekicks" getting credit. It's just to use AD in their bizarre LeBron obsession because he is a threat to MJ and/or surpassed Kobe.

[NBAGOAT]

If it has happened 4 times since 2011 it can't be that unusual...

It is interesting the Celtics have come up a few times. Without Bird that "great cast" was a .500 team that couldn't get out the first round.



The LeBron-era Heat won after Wade ceased to be a top 5 player (of course your agenda demands pretending 12' and 13' Wade was superstar Wade). Kareem/Magic weren't top 5 every year the Lakers won. Kobe wasn't top 5 in 00'.

Shaq, Penny won nothing as did KD and Westbrook.

the celtics werent as good by the time bird missed a year. similar with wade in miami

[Roundball_Rock]

the celtics werent as good by the time bird missed a year. similar with wade in miami

They won 57 games and were in the ECF the year before with Bird. As to Miami, 54 wins and the finals in Miami. If the claims made about LeBron-era Wade are accurate (e.g., that 14' Wade was superstar Wade, the same guy we saw in 06' or 11'), they should have stayed afloat.

The AD-era Lakers would win 45-48 games without LeBron (they need his playmaking to have a functional offense), although that at this point is speculation. Most of these other teams we saw for extended periods without their best player, though, either for full seasons or large chunks of seasons.

[NBAGOAT]

They won 57 games and were in the ECF the year before with Bird. As to Miami, 54 wins and the finals in Miami. If the claims made about LeBron-era Wade are accurate (e.g., that 14' Wade was superstar Wade, the same guy we saw in 06' or 11'), they should have stayed afloat.

The AD-era Lakers would win 45-48 games without LeBron (they need his playmaking to have a functional offense), although that at this point is speculation. Most of these other teams we saw for extended periods without their best player, though, either for full seasons or large chunks of seasons.

no disagreement here. calling 14 wade a superstar is a huge reach.

[Roundball_Rock]

no disagreement here. calling 14 wade a superstar is a huge reach.

Yeah. He was a superstar in 11' and a top 5 player, still a top 10 player in 12' but he fell off a lot by 13' and 14'. These guys will tell you 13'/14' Wade>peak Pippen because that is what their agendas demand.

[3ball]

Yeah. He was a superstar in 11' and a top 5 player, still a top 10 player in 12' but he fell off a lot by 13' and 14'. These guys will tell you 13'/14' Wade>peak Pippen because that is what their agendas demand.

it's a stone cold, lead pipe lock of a fact that 11/12 wade had better stats than prime Pippen, and then was reduced to prime Pippen level from 13-16'

13-16' Wade averaged 20/5/5 + all-star = prime Pippen stats

[SouBeachTalents]

it's a stone cold, lead pipe lock of a fact that 11/12 wade had better stats than prime Pippen, and then was reduced to prime Pippen level from 13-16'

13-16' Wade averaged 20/5/5 + all-star = prime Pippen stats
Wade averaged less ppg in the '13 playoffs than Pippen did during any title run

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade averaged less ppg in the '13 playoffs than Pippen did during any title run

Plus, remember, according to 1-9ball and his disciples it is much, much, much, much, much easier to score in this era than the 90's--yet they mysteriously always use scoring numbers for MJ's teammates at face value against modern players while giving every non-MJ teammate massive upgrades in scoring with 5-6 PPG being the floor. Pippen at their non-MJ teammate inflation rate would be 27-28 PPG at his peak today and his prime floor would be 22-23 PPG at the same inflation rate.

[3ball]

Wade averaged less ppg in the '13 playoffs than Pippen did during any title run

the argument was what happened against GOOD teams remember?

so I take it you concede that only mj had carry-jobs against good teams (won with poor scoring and efficiency from sidekick)

and btw, Pippen always scored less than Wade when adjusted for pace

[Shooter]

Curry
Kobe
Pippen
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Robertson
West
Garnett

Nope sorry. You new to basketball? Stick around. Learn and read more about the history dude. B-ball goes way back before 2015.

[Shooter]

Wade averaged less ppg in the '13 playoffs than Pippen did during any title run

:lebronamazed:

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

Top 5 ever for sidekicks? How many 2nd options have been top 5 players in the league? Kareem, Kobe, Wade, and Durant since 1980.

So AD definitely has a case, and anyone debating otherwise is being disingenuous.


If you are talking about him being Kareem...or Duncan...or Hakeem...or Kobe(which people in this topic are doing)...you are talking guys top 5-10 ever. Quite a jump from being arguably top 5 the last few years. Which brings us back to....it he’s Kareem/Kobe/Magic/whoever level why are people saying so now when the argument was top 5 in the league or not...instead of top 5ish ever?

[Round Mound]

To validate and see how good a 2nd option is: we must see him in a team without his 1st option.

[SouBeachTalents]

If you are talking about him being Kareem...or Duncan...or Hakeem...or Kobe(which people in this topic are doing)...you are talking guys top 5-10 ever. Quite a jump from being arguably top 5 the last few years. Which brings us back to....it he’s Kareem/Kobe/Magic/whoever level why are people saying so now when the argument was top 5 in the league or not...instead of top 5ish ever?
Literally from last year


http://wagesofwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/davisstatsshirt.jpg

1st time ive seen this............empty stats forreal. Id rather have Jrue on my team. He is a better defender and was their best player in that upset Blazers series.

Davis is a perfect heir to Bran

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/131424/lebron_james_check_my_stats_main.jpg

7 seasons
2 playoff appearances
1 series win, 1 losing sweep, 5-8 record (1-8 in the series he lost)
5 bottom tier defenses anchored, 1 mediocre defense, 1 good defense

#emptymystats

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463084-Anthony-Davis-quot-Check-My-Stats-quot-shirt/page2

Someone calling him an MVP candidate met with multiple posters responding with rolling emojis

[Roundball_Rock]

To validate and see how good a 2nd option is: we must see him in a team without his 1st option.

It's funny how the people who go around dismissing players as "sidekicks" then ignore what those players did as "#1's." This comes up a lot with these people and Kemp (other players too like Worthy but especially Kemp for some bizarre reason). Kemp crashed and burned (by star standards) as a "#1 option". If we are going to obsess over hierarchies, then players who failed as they moved up the ladder should be penalized and players who thrived should be rewarded. That isn't what we see, though...

In Davis' case he was all-NBA first team 3x and 3rd in MVP, 5th in MVP as a #1 option so he proved himself IMO, although the knock will be his teams had zero team success during that time frame. If when AD supplants the aging LeBron as the #1 and the team's success decreases, we will hear that brought back against AD (which would be a bit unfair: when LeBron declines by definition that will weaken the team but this AD=Kareem or AD>Kareem stuff will generate resentment against AD).


he’s Kareem/Kobe/Magic/whoever level why are people saying so now when the argument was top 5 in the league or not...instead of top 5ish ever?

Still no answer. We had plenty of discussion of who the best players were and AD frequently was on the borderline for top 5 in 2020. No one responded by saying "Davis is #1--after all, he is better than Kareem so clearly he is better than Giannis, Kawhi, and an old LeBron." This push started as soon as the Lakers looked likely to defeat the Rockets and make the WCF.



Literally from last year


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463084-Anthony-Davis-quot-Check-My-Stats-quot-shirt/page2

Someone calling him an MVP candidate met with multiple posters responding with rolling emojis

:lol What is striking to me is none of the AD "advocates" of today--tpols, 3ball, IMKobe, Samurai/Coach, etc. had a word to say about AD in that thread--not from 2015--but from 2019...

[3ball]

AD would've made the 18' Finals in the East

because he took the KD Warriors to 5 games, while lebron was swept by record amount.. lebron was simply lucky that he didn't face the warriors until the Finals by being in the weak East

also, guys like duncan, hakeem and Kareem were usually top 5 in the league like AD, not consensus #1.. only after their careers had lasted 10+ years with a few rings were they ranked top 10 all-time.. AD will be the same way - after a few rings, he'll have a top 10 argument... because the kareem/Hakeem/duncan goat production rate is already there - he's already out-producing those guys and only needs rings

[And1AllDay]

AD would've made the 18' Finals in the East

because he took the KD Warriors to 5 games, while lebron was swept by record amount.. lebron was simply lucky that he didn't face the warriors until the Finals by being in the weak East

also, guys like duncan, hakeem and Kareem were usually top 5 in the league like AD, not consensus #1.. only after their careers had lasted 10+ years with a few rings were they ranked top 10 all-time.. AD will be the same way - after a few rings, he'll have a top 10 argument... because the kareem/Hakeem/duncan goat production rate is already there

Klay Thompson would win chip in 1994 instead of Pete Myers

its levels to this shit

LBJ = Kareem/AD
MJ = Klay Thompson

[3ball]

Klay Thompson would win chip in 1994 instead of Pete Myers

its levels to this shit

LBJ = Kareem/AD
MJ = Klay Thompson

the 94' bulls were a Kukoc miracle shot from being swept by the Knicks and that was their true capability - the Kukoc shot saved them from getting completely embarassed but doesn't occur with Klay there... klay isn't turning a sweep into a win - the bulls needed scoring champion production from their #1 option to win, so only mj could win as scoring champ... or 71' kareem or 00 shaq

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem was consensus #1 for a full decade. This guy will say anything. Only LeBron has had a reign as #1 that rivals Kareem's.

It is amusing he seems to think Duncan, Hakeem are on the level of Kareem.

[And1AllDay]

the 94' bulls were a Kukoc miracle shot from being swept by the Knicks and that was their true capability - the Kukoc shot saved them from getting completely embarassed but doesn't occur with Klay there... klay isn't turning a sweep into a win - the bulls needed scoring champion production from their #1 option to win, so only mj could win as scoring champ... or 71' kareem or 00 shaq

no mental gymansium from you

plain and simple

swap pete myers for klay thompson and issa chip bb boi

ad = kareem = lebron impact thx

[SouBeachTalents]

AD would've made the 18' Finals in the East

because he took the KD Warriors to 5 games, while lebron was swept by record amount.. lebron was simply lucky that he didn't face the warriors until the Finals by being in the weak East

also, guys like duncan, hakeem and Kareem were usually top 5 in the league like AD, not consensus #1.. only after their careers had lasted 10+ years with a few rings were they ranked top 10 all-time.. AD will be the same way - after a few rings, he'll have a top 10 argument... because the kareem/Hakeem/duncan goat production rate is already there - he's already out-producing those guys and only needs rings
Duncan was a 2x MVP & 3x FMVP by his 8th season
Kareem was a 5x MVP & FMVP by his 8th season

The only one that's applicable is Hakeem, who still made the Finals by knocking off the showtime Lakers in his 2nd year. But lets see you slander the 2nd best player of Jordan's era and compare him to a guy who accomplished nothing in the playoffs like AD prior to this season

[And1AllDay]

Kareem was consensus #1 for a full decade. This guy will say anything. Only LeBron has had a reign as #1 that rivals Kareem's.

It is amusing he seems to think Duncan, Hakeem are on the level of Kareem.

+1 fax cut the deepest



Davis' resume through 8 seasons is similar to Pippen's in fact (Davis slightly ahead but remember Pippen "sucked" so Kareem Davis should be blowing him away). :lol

:oldlol: :oldlol: this is a bloodbath owning

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol deleted my post by mistake on my phone.

Davis' resume through 8 seasons is similar to Pippen's in fact (Davis slightly ahead but remember Pippen "sucked" so Kareem Davis should be blowing him away).

Or maybe Pippen's era was just that weak where they had so few good players a scrub got a lot of accolades or that Davis' era is so stacked it's holding his accolades down. Kareem can't finish higher than 3rd in MVP in this era? Either way it blows up in the face of his agenda. :pimp:

[3ball]

Duncan was a 2x MVP & 3x FMVP by his 8th season
Kareem was a 5x MVP & FMVP by his 8th season

The only one that's applicable is Hakeem, who still made the Finals by knocking off the showtime Lakers in his 2nd year. But lets see you slander the 2nd best player of Jordan's era and compare him to a guy who accomplished nothing in the playoffs like AD prior to this season
kareem and duncan entered the league with HOF teammates

now that AD has one, he will win chips just like duncan and Kareem did, except AD's stats will destroy theirs

guys like duncan, hakeem and Kareem were usually top 5 in the league like AD, not consensus #1.. only after their careers had lasted 10+ years with a few rings were they ranked top 10 all-time.. AD will be the same way - after a few rings, he'll have a top 10 argument... because the kareem/Hakeem/duncan goat production rate is already there

[SouBeachTalents]

kareem and duncan entered the league with HOF teammates

now that AD has one, he will win chips just like duncan and Kareem did, except AD's stats will destroy theirs

guys like duncan, hakeem and Kareem were usually top 5 in the league like AD, not consensus #1.. only after their careers had lasted 10+ years with a few rings were they ranked top 10 all-time.. AD will be the same way - after a few rings, he'll have a top 10 argument... because the kareem/Hakeem/duncan goat production rate is already there
I don't even know if AD makes it past the first round on the '94 Rockets or '03 Spurs

[kawhileonard2]

He was 1st Team All NBA and Defense and led the teams in stats. He is the #1 player now on the squad.

[Axe]

I wanted to ask 3ball what's his case for thinking that doug collins was a much better coach than phil jackson ever was, despite having never led any teams to the finals nor chips for his entire coaching career.

Could it be because when mj returned to the league after his second retirement and decided to play for the wizards in his last two years, coincidentally doug became the coach of that team as well?

[3ball]

no mental gymansium from you

plain and simple

swap pete myers for klay thompson and issa chip bb boi

ad = kareem = lebron impact thx

94' Pippen wet the bed against the Knicks but still almost won, so mj in his place wins easily and the title - so that proves mj didn't need Pippen

but the 89' run already showed us that - mj nearly beat the Pistons despite 10 on 40% from Pippen, so anyone OTHER than Pippen would've won.. so mj didn't need Pippen to win in 1989, and Phil wasn't there in 89' - so mj didn't need Pippen or Phil - the 89' carry-job proves it

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't even know if AD makes it past the first round on the '94 Rockets or '03 Spurs

He doesn't because he isn't a top 10 all-time level guy. He is more like David Robinson than Duncan.

This "analysis" shows how ignorant and shallow 1-9ball (and by extension his disciples) is. You don't judge players solely by stats. If it's about stats, David Robinson would be top 10 all-time.

Davis was borderline top 5 (for this year, not all-time :oldlol: ) like two weeks ago and as you demonstrated, a year ago saying he was a MVP candidate was considered laughable by several posters (1-9ball and co. did not dispute that since AD wasn't relevant to their agenda then). Now he is Kareem. It's absurd and amusing but it shows how desperate and shook a certain fan base is.

[And1AllDay]

I don't even know if AD makes it past the first round on the '94 Rockets or '03 Spurs

He needed goat level help to get 1 playoff series win

https://i.postimg.cc/k4GP7g0R/trtrtrtrtrtrtrrtrt.png

[3ball]

I wanted to ask 3ball what's his case for thinking that doug collins was a much better coach than phil jackson ever was, despite having never led any teams to the finals nor chips for his entire coaching career.

Could it be because when mj returned to the league after his second retirement and decided to play for the wizards in his last two years, coincidentally doug became the coach of that team as well?

the reason mj didn't beat the Pistons in 88' and 89' was because his sidekick Pippen averaged 10 on 40% both times

but with Phil, Pippen had entered his prime so he literally doubled his production (20 ppg) and the bulls won

but ultimately, the 89' run proved that mj didn't need Pippen - mj nearly beat the Pistons despite 10 on 40% from Pippen, so anyone OTHER than Pippen would've won.. so mj didn't need Pippen to win in 1989, and Phil wasn't there in 89' - so mj didn't need Pippen or Phil - the 89' carry-job proves it

[tpols]

He needed goat level help to get 1 playoff series win

https://i.postimg.cc/k4GP7g0R/trtrtrtrtrtrtrrtrt.png


Imagine criticizing a dude for averaging 33/12 on 58% shooting from the field.

:roll:

[Axe]

the reason mj didn't beat the Pistons in 88' and 89' was because his sidekick Pippen averaged 10 on 40% both times

but with Phil, Pippen had entered his prime so he literally doubled his production (20 ppg) and the bulls won

but ultimately, the 89' run proved that mj didn't need Pippen - mj nearly beat the Pistons despite 10 on 40% from Pippen, so anyone OTHER than Pippen would've won.. so mj didn't need Pippen to win in 1989, and Phil wasn't there in 89' - so mj didn't need Pippen or Phil - the 89' carry-job proves it
Great. Any explanations now as to why mj was ringless without pip and the zenmaster?

[And1AllDay]

Imagine ciriticizing a dude for averaging 33/12 on 58% shooting from the field.

:roll:

imagine the spelling ciriiririritizing like you did

his 2 option had 27-7-4
his 3 option had 18-9-2
his 4 option had 11-8-13

suck a nut

[3ball]

I don't even know if AD makes it past the first round on the '94 Rockets or '03 Spurs

and Hakeem/Duncan lack the guard and shooting skills that bigs need to be successful in today's high-screen-roll version of the game.. they might be looked at like rudy gobert-type defensive bigs in today's game... no one would see or care about their funky "post" moves lol.. useless skills today

ultimately, it's different eras, but the stats show that AD dominates MORE than duncan or kareem did..

btw, Kareem was a massive loser without the leagues top PG

so again, guys like duncan, hakeem and Kareem were usually top 5 in the league like AD, not consensus #1.. only after their careers had lasted 10+ years with a few rings were they ranked top 10 all-time.. AD will be the same way - after a few rings, he'll have a top 10 argument... because the kareem/Hakeem/duncan goat production rate is already there

[SouBeachTalents]

and Hakeem/Duncan lack the guard and shooting skills that bigs need to be successful in today's high-screen-roll version of the game.. they might be looked at like rudy gobert-type defensive bigs in today's game... no one would see or care about their funky "post" moves lol.. useless skills today

ultimately, it's different eras, but the stats show that AD dominates MORE than duncan or kareem did..

btw, Kareem was a massive loser without the leagues top PG
Idk if he could necessarily make 3's, but Hakeem could absolutely space the floor in today's game. I'm sure if they made it a priority he could develop a 3 point shot like so many centers have today, he'd definitely still thrive in today's era.

But you're foolish if you don't think Kareem & Duncan could still play at an ATG level in this era. Do you not think Shaq would dominate today's league despite his lack of shooting?

[And1AllDay]

Idk if he could necessarily make 3's, but Hakeem could absolutely space the floor in today's game. I'm sure if they made it a priority he could develop a 3 point shot like so many centers have today, he'd definitely still thrive in today's era.

But you're foolish if you don't think Kareem & Duncan could still play at an ATG level in this era. Do you not think Shaq would dominate today's league despite his lack of shooting?

+1

by the same logic mike with his wnba shooting numbers would be a demar derozan with athletic hops

peep this

https://i.postimg.cc/63DdfzNW/WNBA-Jordan-3.png

[3ball]

Idk if he could necessarily make 3's, but Hakeem could absolutely space the floor in today's game. I'm sure if they made it a priority he could develop a 3 point shot like so many centers have today, he'd definitely still thrive in today's era.

But you're foolish if you don't think Kareem & Duncan could still play at an ATG level in this era. Do you not think Shaq would dominate today's league despite his lack of shooting?

and AD has the tools to dominate the post if he was brought up that way, just like Hakeem could probably be decent today too.. AD would basically be duncan in the 90's except more athletic.. maybe he's a hybrid between duncan and garnett

again, it's unfair for a player of this caliber to be a "sidekick".. it's auto-championships

[Honor Boost]

+1

by the same logic mike with his wnba shooting numbers would be a demar derozan with athletic hops

peep this

https://i.postimg.cc/63DdfzNW/WNBA-Jordan-3.png

Fun Fact: Jordan actually shot from 3 point range better in the playoffs than the regular season. He probably wasn't trying hard enough in the regular season but when it came down to shoot in the playoffs he never disappointed.

[3ball]

Fun Fact: Jordan actually shot from 3 point range better in the playoffs than the regular season. He probably wasn't trying hard enough in the regular season but when it came down to shoot in the playoffs he never disappointed.

jordan always shot well when he averaged 2+ attempts

otherwise, he only took bailout threes, which depressed his percentage.. there's a 14-minute video of mj shooting threes and the last 12 minutes are all bailout threes - I doubt anyone else has 12 straight minutes of bailout threes.. let me know if you need the link

also, mj shot 40% on threes from 85-93' in games where he took 4+ threes

finally, could mj win a ring shooting thees like today's player?.. HE ALREADY DID - see the 93' playoffs, where he shot about 40% on 4 attempts.. infact he shot great the entire 1st three-peat

[Roundball_Rock]

We all know if AD really was a Kareem level player every one of these lowlifes would be ripping Davis 24/7 (like they do with LeBron and Pippen) because that would mean Davis would be a threat to their childhood hero MJ. Kareem and LeBron going to the finals would be a worst case scenario from the MJ stan perspective.

[Micku]

AD isn't on Kareem's lvl imo. I'm not even talking peak Kareem, but mid 80s Kareem. Kareem had more moves and a better passer. And he was harder to stop and more efficient.

I don't really know if AD is a top 5 sidekick ever.

I don't think AD is better than Kareem/Magic. Durant/Curry. Kobe. And West. But it's debatable with Wade 2011 or Wade 06 if you consider him to be a sidekick and Mchale.

Like with Mchale, I don't think he outclass Mchale as a second option. I'm not even sure he is better than Mchale as a second option. Like AD is the better first option for sure. Better rebounder, better defender, and better scorer. But as second option tho? I dunno. Mchale was more unstoppable. Like you couldn't guard him. No one could in his prime. And his defense was still great. Like Mchale had the footwork to keep up with James Worthy and Wilkins. Mchale and DJ were the best defenders on the squad.

And the reason Mchale probably isn't the better scorer imo, is cuz we never seen him do it. He was never the first option and after 87, his foot was jacked up.

And he is better than Dr. J or Moses Malone? Well....he isn't better than Moses Malone. But he was better than Dr. J in 83? I wasn't alive to see Dr. J in 83 and I hardly watch any games there to really say. And I forgot to put him up there.

AD is the best sidekick Lebron's had since Wade 11, for sure. And Wade 11 was like 1a/b with LeBron.

But in general, I don't think he is top 5. Arguable sure. Could you argue that Wilt was a second option? If so, he isn't better than Wilt I don't think. And there is Elgin Baylor.

[Roundball_Rock]

McHale made one all-NBA team in his entire career...


He was never the first option

He was in 89' (Bird missed 76 games plus the playoffs) and no one even remembers it because he didn't step up and the team went 42-40 and got swept in the first round. To be fair, most "sidekicks" have issues when they go to the #1 role (Kemp, Worthy, McHale, Penny from that time frame being prime examples) but not all. Some players thrived in the new role (Pippen, Richmond being examples from the same era)--yet fans who go on and on about options never credit the players who showed they could do it as a #1.


But it's debatable with Wade 2011

What about 2011-2014 Wade? He didn't retire after 2011. His "sidekick" tenure was 2011-2014, not one year.

[DMAVS41]

Not sure the real debate here, but having an in-prime Anthony Davis level player as the 2nd best player on a team is historically good. So if it just comparing him to the 2nd best player on most teams that won the title...he's certainly not the best, but he's obviously very good.

AD's place in history? He actually has to do shit. We've known from very early on that he was going to be in the HOF, but it remains to be seen how great he can be. Joining Lebron and winning a title isn't the level of Durant joining the Warriors where we learn nothing new, but it isn't like Davis is proving a ton winning as the 2nd best player on his team...when said player happens to be in the conversation for best player ever.

Davis is a great player, but you guys are nuts if you think he's done anything to warrant being compared to the very best players of all-time.

[Micku]

McHale made one all-NBA team in his entire career...

He was in 89' (Bird missed 76 games plus the playoffs) and no one even remembers it because he didn't step up and the team went 42-40 and got swept in the first round. To be fair, most "sidekicks" have issues when they go to the #1 role (Kemp, Worthy, McHale, Penny from that time frame being prime examples) but not all. Some players thrived in the new role (Pippen, Richmond being examples from the same era)--yet fans who go on and on about options never credit the players who showed they could do it as a #1.

What about 2011-2014 Wade? He didn't retire after 2011. His "sidekick" tenure was 2011-2014, not one year.

Mchale getting one all nba team is more due to competition at the forward spot, but not necessary discredit his quality and ability of his play. Like Tom Chalbmers has more all nba teams, but that doesn't mean he is the better player overall in the career. It depends on the situation the team is in at the time and that specific year.

I did mention post 87 injury in terms of first option. Maybe I should've worded it better say he was never the first option pre 87. Like you could say that is an excuse. But you're ultimately right tho. Mchale being the first option wasn't great. But I figure at that point, his best year where he could potentially prove he could be decent as the first option was beyond him.

And Wade 12-14 wasn't as good as Wade 11 imo. Due to injuries, age and/or even stepping down. He wasn't as a good production wise. You can tell by his play too. He lost a little bit of explosiveness, he could still create his own shot, but he had to change his style a bit more. It might due to conflicts to Lebron play style since they played very similar. He still had some stretches of his former self, but overall not as good. Especially in 13 and 14 in the playoffs. In the regular season, they were trying to save him. He was a slow starter, but mid season he was great. When it was playoff time, he was playing on one knee it seems out there. Even in 12, they had to drain his knee I think with the Pacers series. Wade was just injury prone. When healthy, he was awesome. When he isn't, he struggled. It was more evident in 13 beyond tho.

AD has a history of being injury prone too, but so far this year it's been good. And I feel this is the best player LeBron has had since Wade 11.

[3ball]

kyrie averaged 26 on 47% in the 16' and 17' playoffs, including 27 in the Finals and outplaying the league MVP

that's GOAT sidekick credentials that no other sidekick in history can match... :confusedshrug:

people simply HATE on kyrie but he's a top 5 sidekick ever.. again, no other sidekick can match his credentials

[BigtimeNBAFan]

kyrie averaged 26 on 47% in the 16' and 17' playoffs, including 27 in the Finals and outplaying the league MVP

that's GOAT sidekick credentials that no other sidekick in history can match... :confusedshrug:

people simply HATE on kyrie but he's a top 5 sidekick ever.. again, no other sidekick can match his credentials

If you break it down to just one year, I would give you that since i don't consider Kobe in the 2001 playoffs a sidekick. Him and Shaq were a dynamic duo. 2016 Kyrie was definitely a special talent and played great against the Warriors.

[3ball]

If you break it down to just one year, I would give you that since i don't consider Kobe in the 2001 playoffs a sidekick. Him and Shaq were a dynamic duo. 2016 Kyrie was definitely a special talent and played great against the Warriors.

it wasn't just 2016 - Kyrie was great in 17' too.


Career Finals

kyrie....... 28 on 46%
pippen... 19 on 42%


kyrie > pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

Mchale getting one all nba team is more due to competition at the forward spot, but not necessary discredit his quality and ability of his play.

It isn't a good look when you compare him to all the other "sidekicks" being mentioned in this thread (other than the weird Irving fasicnation by MJ stans). That was my point. The era excuse doesn't work. Terry Cummings, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Dominique Wilkins, Tom Chambers, Chris Mullin, Bernard King, James Worthy all made all-NBA teams during the time frame McHale was an all-star player.

Pippen was in the same era as prime Malone, prime Barkley (two top 20 all-time players) and outpolled them in multiple years (not mentioning guys like Hill, Webber, Kemp) and he is getting dissed in this thread to the extent he comes up.


Mchale being the first option wasn't great. But I figure at that point, his best year where he could potentially prove he could be decent as the first option was beyond him.

True, he wasn't at his best but he was still an elite player. It's the only sample we have to work with. I am comparing him to his 88' level, not his peak level. He regressed relative to that in 89' w/out Bird. He still good of course and they still made the playoffs. They just weren't contenders and he didn't step up like some other "sidekicks" did in that situation.


And Wade 12-14 wasn't as good as Wade 11 imo.

Agreed. I just don't get why Wade 2011-2014 isn't what comes up in these discussions. His best year is separated from the other 75% of the sidekick sample.


And I feel this is the best player LeBron has had since Wade 11.

Agreed.


people simply HATE on kyrie but he's a top 5 sidekick ever.. again, no other sidekick can match his credentials


Sincerely,

Kemba Walker, Terry Rozier, and Spencer Dinwiddie

[Micku]

Agreed. I just don't get why Wade 2011-2014 isn't what comes up in these discussions. His best year is separated from the other 75% of the sidekick sample.


I think it's understandable.

Not to say that Wade 12-14 wasn't elite when healthy, but Wade 11 was pretty much the last year of his top 3-5 player status. Like when ppl mention Kobe, they aren't talking about the 97-00 Kobe. They talking about the 01-04 Kobe. The only person that I could think of out of the top of my head that's similar is Elgin Baylor. After his knee problems and injuries, he was never the same after that though he was still elite. West took over.

But Wade was even more evident. Granted the knees was always an issue since college with him, but after 11, a mixture between age and knee issues caught up with him. He said that he regretted taking that knee surgery in 02, having his meniscus remove, cuz it hindered him later on. He had to take another knee surgery in 12.

https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/9760169/dwyane-wade-miami-heat-regrets-having-meniscus-removed-college


But basically, LeBron had the last of the best version of Wade in 11. After that, his knees acted up. And unfortunately his knees were shot in the playoffs, but he still battled. It just got worse and worse. Wade had to skills and the iq to still be good to elite tho. If I had to bet, I'm sure they did not think this would happen prior to them teaming up. But in general, ppl are talking the best version of LeBron/Wade than the overall. Like more ppl mention Shaq/Kobe in 01 than they do any other year.

[Turbo Slayer]

AD is having a great POs run so far! :D

[Roundball_Rock]

But basically, LeBron had the last of the best version of Wade in 11. After that, his knees acted up. And unfortunately his knees were shot in the playoffs, but he still battled. It just got worse and worse. Wade had to skills and the iq to still be good to elite tho. If I had to bet, I'm sure they did not think this would happen prior to them teaming up. But in general, ppl are talking the best version of LeBron/Wade than the overall. Like more ppl mention Shaq/Kobe in 01 than they do any other year.

You are describing what happened with Wade. The people who hype "sidekick" Wade, though, are doing it with an agenda that calls on pretending that 2011-2014 Wade were all the same, superstar Wade and that he magically fell off overnight in 2015 (since the Heat sucking without LeBron is awfully inconvenient). Look at their posts. They aren't caveating 2011 Wade as separate from subsequent Wade like you and another poster here did (NBAGoat I think). You guys don't have the agenda of the cadre pushing sidekick Wade, Davis, and Irving (while denigrating other "sidekicks" like Pippen and Gasol).

If you average out the advanced stats for 2011-2014 Wade it isn't great (compared to other HOF "sidekicks")--because he fell off so much over the run. For instance:

Playoff VORP per 82 games

Pippen 95’-98’: 6.8
Pippen 91’-93’: 6.1
Kobe 00'-02': 6.0
Stockton 92’-98’: 6.0
Gasol 08’-10’: 5.9
Wade 11’-14’: 5.1
Irving 15’-17’: 4.9
Worthy 87'-91': 4.4
McHale 84'-88': 4.2
Pierce 08'-10': 4.0 (#1 in 09' with KG out)
Dumars 89'-91': 3.5
Klay 15’-19’: 2.2

Wade is solid but not the Earth shattering force he is hyped as being, via conflating 11' Wade with 12'-14' Wade. The player he is closest to is Gasol--exactly one of the players used as an example of a "run of the mill" championship team sidekick.

Playoff BPM

Pippen playoff BPM 91'-98': 6.5, 6.6, 2.0, 5.6, 5.9, 7.8, 5.1, 5.6 (5.6 avg.)
Kobe playoff BPM 00'-02': 4.2, 6.5, 4.3 (4.9 avg.)
Gasol playoff BPM 08'-11': 4.2, 5.3, 5.9, 1.9 (4.8 avg.)
Wade playoff BPM 11'-14': 8.4, 5.3, 3.1, 0.9 (4.6 avg.)
Irving playoff BPM 15'-18': 5.2, 6.0, 2.2, 2.5 (4.2 avg.)
Worthy playoff BPM 87'-91': 5.0, 4.3, 5.1, 2.2, 0.2 (3.4 avg.)
McHale playoff BPM 84'-88': 1.1, 2.9, 5.1, 1.7, 6.1 (3.3 avg.)
Klay playoff BPM 15'-16': 1.9, 4.2 (3.1 avg.)
Pierce playoff BPM 08'-10': 3.6, 1.7, 3.0 (3.0 avg.)
Dumars playoff BPM 89'-91': 2.0, 1.8, 3.7 (2.4 avg.)

Wade's peak was the highest, with only Pippen coming close, but look at that floor. Only 91' Worthy was lower.

It is interesting both VORP and BPM spit out Pippen as #1 (easily in BPM and "Pippen II" easily wins in VORP, although "Pippen I" is close to Kobe, Stockton.), despite him getting denigrated all the time, including relative to these other players.

Or this:

“Sidekicks” by All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Oscar (71’-74) 1
Pippen (91’-98’) 5 (4 if you exclude 94', where he was #1 in all-NBA voting by far)
Wade (11’-14’) 1
Irving (15’-17’) 0
Gasol (08’-10’) 0
McHale (84’-88’) 1
Klay (15’-16’) 0
Kobe (00’-02’) 3
Magic (80’-82’) 1
Pierce (08’-10’) 1
Dumars (88'-90') 0
Worthy (87'-91') 0

People talk about Wade like he was a perennial MVP candidate in these years (his highest finish was 7th in 11'--Pippen, Kobe, McHale, Curry, Westbrook all posted top 5 finishes as "sidekicks" as did Kareem/Magic several times, so being a sidekick doesn't explain it.) when in reality he wasn't making the first or second all-NBA team outside of 11'.

Wade was better than any of the players listed here, except for Kobe, but when we are talking "sidekicks" we are talking 2011-2014 Wade so Wade's prime being better isn't relevant to his record as a "sidekick."

[Carbine]

If Davis maintains his level of play for an entire championship run he's not a sidekick to anybody to ever play. It's as much "his" ring as LeBrons.

For the people who love doing the "numbers thing" he's doing basically 28/11/4 on extreme percentages. He's a DPOY type player.

[Micku]

You are describing what happened with Wade. The people who hype "sidekick" Wade, though, are doing it with an agenda that calls on pretending that 2011-2014 Wade were all the same, superstar Wade and that he magically fell off overnight in 2015 (since the Heat sucking without LeBron is awfully inconvenient). Look at their posts. They aren't caveating 2011 Wade as separate from subsequent Wade like you and another poster here did (NBAGoat I think). You guys don't have the agenda of the cadre pushing sidekick Wade, Davis, and Irving (while denigrating other "sidekicks" like Pippen and Gasol).


Oh yeah. I'm not doing that. That ppl who are, they are doing revisionist history. You see the stats, the games, and the reports of Wade was battling through injury. The load management that Kawhi was doing was implemented for Wade too. Like he hardly played back to back in the RS I think in either 13 or 14. They were saving him for the playoffs because his knees couldn't take it. But once the playoffs hit, his knees were already damaged and he couldn't perform as well as he could. We saw flashed what he could do in the RS and it was great. But he isn't the only one who suffer from injures. I think it was Chris Bosh as well.

With that said, it depends on that stats that you use. And with the all nba team too. It is shakey, and ppl get snubbed.

Like Tony Parker wasn't better than D-Wade in 12 in any form to me. But he beat him out in the second team of all nba. I get the reason why, but he was not the better player. D-wade was better offensively, defensively, better raw stats, and better advance stats. And Westbrook too. I feel like Westbrook had a better argument than Parker, but defensive side carried Wade over. But even then, Wade in general was more efficient and better advance stats. But the fact of the matter is that Wade didn't play as often. In a similar vein of Rose in 11. D-Wade 11 was better than D-Rose, but that might be more unpopular take. It still remains that the wasn't a 1st or 2nd all nba team, that doesn't mean he wasn't better than the guys in that 1st/2nd team. And it ironically, in this case, it doesn't mean he wasn't better than ppl selected over him in the guard position. Imo, it's a misleading fact to say that Wade isn't as good or a value as the other players in the 1st/2nd all nba team in 2012.

In a similar case of BPM and VORP. It doesn't mean who is the better player or what not. It just value of the player on the rotation or team at hand. The situation is different for each team and what the player contributes to that specific rotation. So direct comparison to Wade, Kobe, Pippen, Worthy, Mchale is irrelevant. Just with KD. His team didn't need to perform as much in OKC as he was in GSW in the RS. The stats will be down. It doesn't mean he wasn't as good as player. It just mean had a better team and/or good enough rotation. In the playoffs it was different from him because they needed KD to do more. And again it also depends on the rotation. Same thing with Mchale and Bird, same thing Magic, same thing across eras. So, in general you take it into context. A direct comparison isn't a good way to do it.

With all that said, Wade still wasn't as good in 12-14. All the stats and eye test point at this. And in the playoffs, his knees were gone. It happened 3 straight times in 12-14.

[Elosha]

He is in his 8th season in the NBA and suddenly has all these "fans" who "discovered" him in year 8. :oldlol: Great questions but we know you won't get any legit answers.

What makes the Davis push amusing is its futility. Basketball history shows one player gets all the credit for chips and that player will be LeBron if the Lakers win. You have guys like Bill Simmons (and I note him because I respect him but find this disappointing) discussing past NBA champions or series as if they were boxing or tennis. Ali beat Frazier. Holyfield beat Tyson. Sampras beat Agassi and...Jordan beat Barkley. Walton beat Kareem. Etc. Forget teammates. The team's name doesn't even get mentioned. Just one guy who "beat" another guy in a series or won a title all by himself.

That is what would be the best thing about the Heat winning. All this "one man wins alone" BS and then the same people have to explain how that logic doesn't apply to Butler, unless he suddenly gets elevated to the same plane as LeBron, Durant, Curry, Dirk, Kobe, and so on.

Responding to your point in bold above. It's hard to say, but if AD is clearly the most valuable player in the finals - which of course it isn't a given that the Lakers even win - and if he wins Finals MVP, I don't think the narrative will be that it was to LeBron's credit. Really, either one of them could win, although given his vastly greater experience on the big stage, I would guess LeBron more likely to win Finals MVP than AD.

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh yeah. I'm not doing that. That ppl who are, they are doing revisionist history. You see the stats, the games, and the reports of Wade was battling through injury. The load management that Kawhi was doing was implemented for Wade too. Like he hardly played back to back in the RS I think in either 13 or 14. They were saving him for the playoffs because his knees couldn't take it. But once the playoffs hit, his knees were already damaged and he couldn't perform as well as he could. We saw flashed what he could do in the RS and it was great. But he isn't the only one who suffer from injures. I think it was Chris Bosh as well.

Yeah, Wade was always injury prone and eventually they added up plus there is a lot of mileage you accrue going to the finals every year without the time off other players get.


With that said, it depends on that stats that you use. And with the all nba team too. It is shakey, and ppl get snubbed.

True, but the value of it is an "apples to apples" comp across eras as it hints at how they were perceived.


Like Tony Parker wasn't better than D-Wade in 12 in any form to me. But he beat him out in the second team of all nba. I get the reason why, but he was not the better player. D-wade was better offensively, defensively, better raw stats, and better advance stats. And Westbrook too. I feel like Westbrook had a better argument than Parker, but defensive side carried Wade over.

It also was Parker's career year--he was 5th in MVP that year but yeah Wade missing 26% of the season was a factor but this was a feature, not a bug of Wade during that time frame. "Healthy" Wade was a theoretical creature by that point. So you would have to eat missed RS games and having a banged up Wade in the PO.


D-Wade 11 was better than D-Rose, but that might be more unpopular take. It still remains that the wasn't a 1st or 2nd all nba team

Wade was on the 2nd team that year. He was on the 3rd team in 12', 13' and nothing in 14'.

Rose was MVP. Hard to not have him on the 1st team. MVP and all-NBA voters both reached the same conclusion regarding Rose. Maybe Wade should have been ahead of Kobe.


In a similar case of BPM and VORP. It doesn't mean who is the better player or what not. It just value of the player on the rotation or team at hand.

It is another way to compare across eras. VORP compares against a "replacement level" player. That's the same concept as WAR in baseball--which is the gold standard for comparing players in baseball. BPM is team influenced.


Just with KD. His team didn't need to perform as much in OKC as he was in GSW in the RS. The stats will be down.

That applies to all the top "sidekicks": their stats went up as #1's (or down when they became #2's). The exceptions are the weaker ones like McHale, Worthy types whose dramatic decline in efficiency swamped the gains in volume they got as #1's. So when we are comparing "sidekick" to "sidekick" they are all in the same boat.


It's hard to say, but if AD is clearly the most valuable player in the finals - which of course it isn't a given that the Lakers even win - and if he wins Finals MVP, I don't think the narrative will be that it was to LeBron's credit.

Only on places like ISH. Just look at the media coverage of the Lakers. It is presented as LeBron's team, most people don't know who AD is but everyone knows LeBron, etc. The headlines will all be something like "Lakers defeat X, LeBron wins 4th title." If he gets FMVP maybe he gets mentioned in the sub-headline. When the Spurs won did anyone care Parker won FMVP?

Is there any case of a sidekick getting equal credit in real time? Kobe and Magic did--but via revisionism decades later. AD apparently has no fans so who would be leading the charge to revise history for him? MJ stans don't care about AD per se so they won't keep fighting 10-15 years later like Kobe fans did with his "sidekick" rings.

Look at MVP voting. Davis got about 10% of the votes LeBron did and zero first or second place votes. This isn't "1a/1b" like KAJ and Magic finishing 3rd and 4th in MVP.

[Elosha]

Only on places like ISH. Just look at the media coverage of the Lakers. It is presented as LeBron's team, most people don't know who AD is but everyone knows LeBron, etc. The headlines will all be something like "Lakers defeat X, LeBron wins 4th title." If he gets FMVP maybe he gets mentioned in the sub-headline. When the Spurs won did anyone care Parker won FMVP?

Is there any case of a sidekick getting equal credit in real time? Kobe and Magic did--but via revisionism decades later. AD apparently has no fans so who would be leading the charge to revise history for him? MJ stans don't care about AD per se so they won't keep fighting 10-15 years later like Kobe fans did with his "sidekick" rings.

Look at MVP voting. Davis got about 10% of the votes LeBron did and zero first or second place votes. This isn't "1a/1b" like KAJ and Magic finishing 3rd and 4th in MVP.

You've got a point there. Now that I think about it, it's not like guys like James Worthy, or Tony Parker eclipsed Duncan or Magic when they won their finals MVP. It was still always considered the main star's success and ring. There is one difference though. I think AD is much closer to LeBron's overall talent level than a player like Parker or even Worthy. But as you said, he's not known well to the masses like an all-time great like LeBron. Unless he plays great and LeBron plays particularly mediocre, I think you are right that a Lakers win will be considered LeBron's win, even if AD should win the Finals MVP.

[Roundball_Rock]

You've got a point there. Now that I think about it, it's not like guys like James Worthy, or Tony Parker eclipsed Duncan or Magic when they won their finals MVP. It was still always considered the main star's success and ring. There is one difference though. I think AD is much closer to LeBron's overall talent level than a player like Parker or even Worthy. But as you said, he's not known well to the masses like an all-time great like LeBron. Unless he plays great and LeBron plays particularly mediocre, I think you are right that a Lakers win will be considered LeBron's win, even if AD should win the Finals MVP.

Yeah it is unfair but we know how the media works. You sketched out Davis' only shot: dominating while LeBron struggles. Even then, though, the narrative may simply be LeBron got them all the way to the finals and Davis just carried the torch the final 5 percent of the marathon.

How Davis does in this series compared to Jokic may influence things. If Jokic is the second best player in the series behind LeBron that would slow down the AD Kareem stuff somewhat.

[Round Mound]

You are describing what happened with Wade. The people who hype "sidekick" Wade, though, are doing it with an agenda that calls on pretending that 2011-2014 Wade were all the same, superstar Wade and that he magically fell off overnight in 2015 (since the Heat sucking without LeBron is awfully inconvenient). Look at their posts. They aren't caveating 2011 Wade as separate from subsequent Wade like you and another poster here did (NBAGoat I think). You guys don't have the agenda of the cadre pushing sidekick Wade, Davis, and Irving (while denigrating other "sidekicks" like Pippen and Gasol).

If you average out the advanced stats for 2011-2014 Wade it isn't great (compared to other HOF "sidekicks")--because he fell off so much over the run. For instance:

Playoff VORP per 82 games

Pippen 95’-98’: 6.8
Pippen 91’-93’: 6.1
Kobe 00'-02': 6.0
Stockton 92’-98’: 6.0
Gasol 08’-10’: 5.9
Wade 11’-14’: 5.1
Irving 15’-17’: 4.9
Worthy 87'-91': 4.4
McHale 84'-88': 4.2
Pierce 08'-10': 4.0 (#1 in 09' with KG out)
Dumars 89'-91': 3.5
Klay 15’-19’: 2.2

Wade is solid but not the Earth shattering force he is hyped as being, via conflating 11' Wade with 12'-14' Wade. The player he is closest to is Gasol--exactly one of the players used as an example of a "run of the mill" championship team sidekick.

Playoff BPM

Pippen playoff BPM 91'-98': 6.5, 6.6, 2.0, 5.6, 5.9, 7.8, 5.1, 5.6 (5.6 avg.)
Kobe playoff BPM 00'-02': 4.2, 6.5, 4.3 (4.9 avg.)
Gasol playoff BPM 08'-11': 4.2, 5.3, 5.9, 1.9 (4.8 avg.)
Wade playoff BPM 11'-14': 8.4, 5.3, 3.1, 0.9 (4.6 avg.)
Irving playoff BPM 15'-18': 5.2, 6.0, 2.2, 2.5 (4.2 avg.)
Worthy playoff BPM 87'-91': 5.0, 4.3, 5.1, 2.2, 0.2 (3.4 avg.)
McHale playoff BPM 84'-88': 1.1, 2.9, 5.1, 1.7, 6.1 (3.3 avg.)
Klay playoff BPM 15'-16': 1.9, 4.2 (3.1 avg.)
Pierce playoff BPM 08'-10': 3.6, 1.7, 3.0 (3.0 avg.)
Dumars playoff BPM 89'-91': 2.0, 1.8, 3.7 (2.4 avg.)

Wade's peak was the highest, with only Pippen coming close, but look at that floor. Only 91' Worthy was lower.

It is interesting both VORP and BPM spit out Pippen as #1 (easily in BPM and "Pippen II" easily wins in VORP, although "Pippen I" is close to Kobe, Stockton.), despite him getting denigrated all the time, including relative to these other players.

Or this:

“Sidekicks” by All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Oscar (71’-74) 1
Pippen (91’-98’) 5 (4 if you exclude 94', where he was #1 in all-NBA voting by far)
Wade (11’-14’) 1
Irving (15’-17’) 0
Gasol (08’-10’) 0
McHale (84’-88’) 1
Klay (15’-16’) 0
Kobe (00’-02’) 3
Magic (80’-82’) 1
Pierce (08’-10’) 1
Dumars (88'-90') 0
Worthy (87'-91') 0

People talk about Wade like he was a perennial MVP candidate in these years (his highest finish was 7th in 11'--Pippen, Kobe, McHale, Curry, Westbrook all posted top 5 finishes as "sidekicks" as did Kareem/Magic several times, so being a sidekick doesn't explain it.) when in reality he wasn't making the first or second all-NBA team outside of 11'.

Wade was better than any of the players listed here, except for Kobe, but when we are talking "sidekicks" we are talking 2011-2014 Wade so Wade's prime being better isn't relevant to his record as a "sidekick."

:lol:applause:

[StrongLurk]

AD isn't a sidekick, he is a co-superstar.

[Axe]

AD isn't a sidekick, he is a co-superstar.
Why did the op call him one tho?

[3ball]

what worries me is that the Duncan/Lebron combination are predictably unstoppable and won't be tested... so lebron has wiggle room to hog the ball and win FMVP without hurting chances of victory.. otoh, if the Lakers were challenged, then they would need AD's dominance more and he'd be more likely to get FMVP

[SouBeachTalents]

what worries me is that the Duncan/Lebron combination are predictably unstoppable and won't be tested... so lebron has wiggle room to hog the ball and win FMVP without hurting chances of victory.. otoh, if the Lakers were challenged, then they would need AD's dominance more and he'd be more likely to get FMVP
What really worries you is LeBron being 7 wins away from another title

[Roundball_Rock]

What really worries you is LeBron being 7 wins away from another title

Live footage of 1-9ball:

https://media.giphy.com/media/1O43UNtta63S5KLLcK/giphy.gif

[3ball]

What really worries you is LeBron being 7 wins away from another title

my arguments are unaffected by Lebron's 4th ring and infact become more relevant

he'll always have a skill restriction to ball-domination, so he can never play the best brand that dominates the championship level.. ultimately, his skillset turns teammates to play-finishers, which doesn't develop brand or young players, thus forcing him to team-hop for ready-made stars.. that's sad and not even top 10, let alone #2..

essentially, his lack of jumpshooting skill prevents him from playing the off-ball "shooter" role, thus keeping him on-ball and hogging the passing duties (low assist teams and low ball movement brand that goes 4/10 on the championship level)

so get ready for people to do more deep dives and my arguments to become more standard.. lebron will never be goat because the facts and his skills don't support it

[Micku]

It also was Parker's career year--he was 5th in MVP that year but yeah Wade missing 26% of the season was a factor but this was a feature, not a bug of Wade during that time frame. "Healthy" Wade was a theoretical creature by that point. So you would have to eat missed RS games and having a banged up Wade in the PO.



Wade was on the 2nd team that year. He was on the 3rd team in 12', 13' and nothing in 14'.

Rose was MVP. Hard to not have him on the 1st team. MVP and all-NBA voters both reached the same conclusion regarding Rose. Maybe Wade should have been ahead of Kobe.

It is another way to compare across eras. VORP compares against a "replacement level" player. That's the same concept as WAR in baseball--which is the gold standard for comparing players in baseball. BPM is team influenced.


Healthy Wade was theoretically for sure in 12, but he stlll contributed in the RS and PO more so than he did in 13 and 14. He wasn't as good, but better than Parker. He was better in RS and better in the PO, especially in hindsight. But Wade missed more games.

Even though Wade was on the 2nd team in 11 and 3rd team in 12, he had the stats to on the 1st team. He just missed games. Which is why I don't really feel to even mention it as to discredit or credit someone as a player, but it depends on the context. That goes with many accolades. Rose, for example, was the MVP of 11, but was he better than Kobe, LeBron, Howard, Dirk, Wade, Durant? It was the same thing on 06 too. Nash got the guard spot over Wade, but Wade was probably better than Nash. You can argue few more about the All nba teams. There are some players who just have better all around stats, raw and advance, but they lose it to another player cuz of whatever reason. Either the player team wasn't winning as much or the other player is the second option.

But going to my main point about this is that is just because someone got All nba team over someone, it doesn't always mean they are the better player. You got the stats, advance stats, and eye test to prove it. Which is why when you say that Wade didn't get all nba 1st or 2nd team in 12, it doesn't mean he wasn't the better player or didn't produce the same or better production than the guards selected above him.

You can use VORP across eras, but the same problem still lies. Like you'll have weird stats out there if you do a comparison from player from one team to another or another year without context. So, when compare a Gasol, Pippen, a Worthy, a KD it doesn't mean anything depending on what you are indicating. Neither it does it tells the whole story.

[3ball]

Healthy Wade was theoretically for sure in 12, but he stlll contributed in the RS and PO more so than he did in 13 and 14. He wasn't as good, but better than Parker. He was better in RS and better in the PO, especially in hindsight. But Wade missed more games.

Even though Wade was on the 2nd team in 11 and 3rd team in 12, he had the stats to on the 1st team. He just missed games. Which is why I don't really feel to even mention it as to discredit or credit someone as a player, but it depends on the context. That goes with many accolades. Rose, for example, was the MVP of 11, but was he better than Kobe, LeBron, Howard, Dirk, Wade, Durant? It was the same thing on 06 too. Nash got the guard spot over Wade, but Wade was probably better than Nash. You can argue few more about the All nba teams. There are some players who just have better all around stats, raw and advance, but they lose it to another player cuz of whatever reason. Either the player team wasn't winning as much or the other player is the second option.

But going to my main point about this is that is just because someone got All nba team over someone, it doesn't always mean they are the better player. You got the stats, advance stats, and eye test to prove it. Which is why when you say that Wade didn't get all nba 1st or 2nd team in 12, it doesn't mean he wasn't the better player or didn't produce the same or better production than the guards selected above him.

You can use VORP across eras, but the same problem still lies. Like you'll have weird stats out there if you do a comparison from player from one team to another or another year without context. So, when compare a Gasol, Pippen, a Worthy, a KD it doesn't mean anything depending on what you are indicating. Neither it does it tells the whole story.

Wade averaged 27 in the 11' Finals.. so he joins all the 2nd options that got 25-30 ppg in the Finals or fmvp.. only Pippen/Gasol didn't achieve this

btw, wade averaged 20/5/5 and all-star in the 13-16' regular seasons, aka prime Pippen stats.. he also averaged 20/5/5 from the 13' Finals thru 14' ECF.. indeed, 13-14' Wade had been reduced to prime Pippen stats - so when I complain about Pippen, think about 13-14' Wade and you'll understand

[Shooter]

Wade averaged 27 in the 11' Finals.. so he joins all the 2nd options that got 25-30 ppg in the Finals or fmvp.. only Pippen/Gasol didn't achieve this

btw, wade averaged 20/5/5 and all-star in the 13-16' regular seasons, aka prime Pippen stats.. he also averaged 20/5/5 from the 13' Finals thru 14' ECF.. indeed, 13-14' Wade had been reduced to prime Pippen stats - so when I complain about Pippen, think about 13-14' Wade and you'll understand

Wade's 2013 playoff ppg was lower than any of Pippen's.

Add Pipe got his points in the "tough hand checking 90s." Once again, LeBron did more with less.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Iggy averaged 16.3 PPG in 2015 but won finals MVP. I think that's much more significant then Trashcal Siakam's 19.8 PPG finals performance.

[3ball]

Wade's 2013 playoff ppg was lower than any of Pippen's.


.
not pace-adjusted

and wade was prime pippen in the 13' Finals when it mattered, and thru the 14' ECF..

Again, 13-14' Wade was reduced to prime Pippen stats - so when I complain about Pippen, think about 13-14' Wade and you'll understand