Is Michael Jordan the most offensively skilled player of all-time?

[72-10]

I don't think there's many people who disagree that for his position he is the most offensively skilled, but what about among all the players? Like if you were to use a sliding scale.

[highwhey]

simply put, no. i will explain later in further detail, but the short answer is a resounding no. even KD is superior to MJ in scoring.

[Axe]

The scoring titles that he has only shows what kind of a selfish player mj truly is. I think he'll even have more than ten if he chucked a lot of threes back then.

[Marchesk]

simply put, no. i will explain later in further detail, but the short answer is a resounding no. even KD is superior to MJ in scoring.

KD has 10 scoring titles, averages 33.4 in the playoffs, and is tied with Wilt for all-time scoring average?

Huh, didn't know that.

[highwhey]

KD has 10 scoring titles, averages 33.4 in the playoffs, and is tied with Wilt for all-time scoring average?

Huh, didn't know that.

different eras. this era of basketball has far superior talent. would you rather have 4.5 ghz pentium 4 CPU (MJ) or a 4 ghz i9 9900k (KD)?

[pauk]

Scoring skills you mean? Perhaps, maybe, i mean there were also guys who i think were close to his scoring arsenal but were also pure shooters...

Offensive skills however, i dont think so, offense includes entire offense, more things than just individual scoring arsenal, like passing skills, vision, dribbling for example... there are a couple of guys who were better than Jordan in all those things (excluding scoring ofc), one who even scored as much or more than Jordan while at it...

[Gohan]

different eras. this era of basketball has far superior talent. would you rather have 4.5 ghz pentium 4 CPU (MJ) or a 4 ghz i9 9900k (KD)?

Kd continues to be the most Overrated scorer of all time

[Axe]

Kd continues to be the most Overrated scorer of all time
Didn't he help the warriors to secure two additional chips before departing the said team

[Marchesk]

Didn't he help the warriors to secure two additional chips before departing the said team

Because defenses are more afraid of Curry's three point shooting.

[StrongLurk]

Yes, he is the best offensive player of all time.

People are lying to themselves by trying to say he is "only" a scorer. MJ was 35/7/7 on elite efficiency 85-93 playoffs. 29.6 PER and a MASSIVE 12.1 BPM.

[LoneyROY7]

No.

/thread.

[ThatCoolKid]

Huge MJ fan here, but he was a career 32.7% 3 point shooter. So no.

[LAmbruh]

Nah not even close


Couldn't even sniff iron outside 20 feet



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsjukb2NttM


League started to see his athleticism decline so they scooted up the 3pt line and gave Mikey a booster seat

[TheCorporation]

Well he's like 1,500 points behind LeBron so maybe if he suits up for the Wizards and tries again? I doubt it though, so he is safely cemented #2 at best, forever.

https://i.postimg.cc/6qxwqrHq/goat-scoreres.png

[FKAri]

You're telling me that Larry Bird was less offensively skilled than MJ?

[PoutinPippin]

Well he's like 1,500 points behind LeBron so maybe if he suits up for the Wizards and tries again? I doubt it though, so he is safely cemented #2 at best, forever.

https://i.postimg.cc/6qxwqrHq/goat-scoreres.png
He’s played like 3 more post seasons worth of games than Jordan.

[Axe]

He’s played like 3 more post seasons worth of games than Jordan.
That's due to his longevity

[TheCorporation]

He’s played like 3 more post seasons worth of games than Jordan.

Nice. Maybe Jordan should have made more than 6 Finals? :confusedshrug: LeBron had him outscored in equal playoff runs (13 a piece).

Sorry Jordan couldn't do more? What do you want me to say :lol

[PoutinPippin]

That's due to his longevity
Agreed. And steroids. And Michael retiring twice. Jordan had better durability than LeBron. Played virtually all 82 nearly every season. His accumulative stats would be absurd as well. I mean is Karl Malone > Barkley, Dirk, Garnett and Duncan?

[TheCorporation]

Agreed. And steroids. And Michael retiring twice. Jordan had better durability than LeBron. Played all virtually all 82 nearly every season. His accumulative stats would be absurd as well. I mean is Karl Malone > Barkley, Dirk, Garnett and Duncan?

We're talking top 5 baby boi, let's not get too carried away. The top 5 list is sound and solid with irrefutable facts. LeBron had MJ outscored after only 13 playoffs. And if MJ wanted more points he should have:

a) stopped missing the playoffs two times
b) stopped losing in the first round
c) stopped winning 1 playoff game in 5 years without pippen
d) made more than 6 finals (All top 3 goats have at least 10, LBJ, Kareem, Russell)

He didn't do enough. #2 is still good. Sorry

[bullettooth]

He’s played like 3 more post seasons worth of games than Jordan.

You're talking to a moron though.

[RRR3]

Agreed. And steroids. And Michael retiring twice. Jordan had better durability than LeBron. Played virtually all 82 nearly every season. His accumulative stats would be absurd as well. I mean is Karl Malone > Barkley, Dirk, Garnett and Duncan?
Imagine being this retarded. Coach gon’ coach :lol

[Manny98]

No, if you're talking full offensive skillset like playmaking, shooting, dribbling ect. then he's not even top 5

CP3
Curry
Bird
Kobe

All more skilled

[Axe]

Lol at curry being top 5. He is trash when not hitting his threes.

[TheCorporation]

Lol at curry being top 5. He is trash when not hitting his threes.

He had a 50/40/90 season on 30 ppg and GOAT level offensive gravity.

[Manny98]

Lol at curry being top 5. He is trash when not hitting his threes.
Not really he's a great ball handler and playmaker as well

[AlternativeAcc.]

Are you fukking kidding me? :roll:

[paksat]

No, if you're talking full offensive skillset like playmaking, shooting, dribbling ect. then he's not even top 5

CP3
Curry
Bird
Kobe

All more skilled

what is your deal with hating on jordan in such silly manner?

Curry can shoot better, but he is literally better at NOTHING else. Did I miss where jordan was a bad passer? A bad dribbler? Literally the only thing he's "only decent" at is 3 point shooting.

But the answer is tracy mcgrady, averaged 32 ppg at only 23 years old I believe with an absolute garbage team around him.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yo how many accounts does Coach have? :oldlol:

[ScottieQuitting]

Yo how many accounts does Coach have? :oldlol:
Trying to match Jeff aka Simon aka Wheels. Since for awhile, oddly and un coincidentally it was only LeBron Stan trolls or alts being granted new membership. Hmmm

[AlternativeAcc.]

Yo how many accounts does Coach have? :oldlol:
One for every imaginary kid on his imaginary aau team :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

Trying to match Jeff aka Simon aka Wheels. Since for awhile, oddly and un coincidentally it was only LeBron Stan trolls or alts being granted new membership. Hmmm

Coach you idiot :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Trying to match Jeff aka Simon aka Wheels. Since for awhile, oddly and un coincidentally it was only LeBron Stan trolls or alts being granted new membership. Hmmm

Why would you want to do that? There's literally hundreds of other things you could do better with your time.

Get your shit together.

[LoneyROY7]

Why would you want to do that? There's literally hundreds of other things you could do better with your time.

Get your shit together.

Yeah, like fiercely defending MJ's "short"comings.

[Axe]

Not really he's a great ball handler and playmaker as well
Oh really. How many go-ahead shots did he make then during crucial playoff situations?

[Axe]

He had a 50/40/90 season on 30 ppg and GOAT level offensive gravity.
Is he reliable in taking go-ahead shots during the playoffs tho

[Kblaze8855]

He’s the best scorer I’ve ever seen but too much of that was related to his insane athletic ability to say other great offensive players without his physical ability were less skilled. When a guy like Nash is a better ball handler, passer, and pure shooter and MJs advantages are many things that were helped by being a god athletically how do I argue he has more offensive skill?

Heres the thing though....

The whole idea of what people would be minus the primary things needed in athletics(some form of athletic ability) is stupid.

Nobody is lesser because they do whatever they do with superior speed, strength, hops, hands, hand eye coordination or whatever. There is no curve. You are your total package.


Jordan was at or near the top tier skills wise and at the very top as an athlete which made him so unstoppable.

What he’d be in Stan Van Gundys body is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter what Deion Sanders would’ve been with a 4.7 40, what Babe Ruth would be without almost inhuman hand eye coordination, or Lance Armstrong if he didn’t have the lung capacity of someone born on Mt.Everest(he cheated too but so did that whole sport).

All that matters is what you are.

[scuzzy]

One for every imaginary kid on his imaginary aau team :oldlol:
:yaohappy:

[Shooter]

One for every imaginary kid on his imaginary aau team :oldlol:

:lol :lol

[FKAri]

Agreed. And steroids. And Michael retiring twice. Jordan had better durability than LeBron. Played virtually all 82 nearly every season. His accumulative stats would be absurd as well. I mean is Karl Malone > Barkley, Dirk, Garnett and Duncan?

Let's be honest. MJ probably hopped on the juice summer of 89. Tim Grover, etc.

[iamgine]

He’s the best scorer I’ve ever seen but too much of that was related to his insane athletic ability to say other great offensive players without his physical ability were less skilled. When a guy like Nash is a better ball handler, passer, and pure shooter and MJs advantages are many things that were helped by being a god athletically how do I argue he has more offensive skill?

Heres the thing though....

The whole idea of what people would be minus the primary things needed in athletics(some form of athletic ability) is stupid.

Nobody is lesser because they do whatever they do with superior speed, strength, hops, hands, hand eye coordination or whatever. There is no curve. You are your total package.


Jordan was at or near the top tier skills wise and at the very top as an athlete which made him so unstoppable.

What he’d be in Stan Van Gundys body is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter what Deion Sanders would’ve been with a 4.7 40, what Babe Ruth would be without almost inhuman hand eye coordination, or Lance Armstrong if he didn’t have the lung capacity of someone born on Mt.Everest(he cheated too but so did that whole sport).

All that matters is what you are.
It doesn't matter as a total package but it totally matters when we're isolating skills.

Shaq had a monster body but his skills were much worse than, say, Tyler Herro. So to say Shaq was more offensively skilled than Herro would be incorrect. To say Shaq was a much better offensive player would be correct.

[Carbine]

The players who have as much or more skill are guys with OK to below average athletic ability. They had to develop the skills otherwise they wouldn't be very good.

Jordan mastered the fundamentals of the game + being the best basketball athlete I've ever seen.

[Round Mound]

He was the best combination of skills and althetic ability.

[Kblaze8855]

It doesn't matter as a total package but it totally matters when we're isolating skills.


Sure. There’s just little reason to do it because it has zero to do with basketball.

Yes Kobe with old man knees shoots 35%. Even supreme skill guys like Nash were average or a little above at the end when their body goes.

You can’t split up skills and the body needed to apply them.

[TheGoatest]

simply put, no. i will explain later in further detail, but the short answer is a resounding no. even KD is superior to MJ in scoring.

Depends on what court they're playing on.
If it's a court with a normal 3-point line, which was out of Jordan's range, then Durant is a better scorer.
If it's a court with a nerfed 3-point line like between 1994-1997 where Jordan was a great 3-point shooter, then I'd take Jordan's scoring.

"Offensively skilled" also includes passing ability though, and LeBron's combination of scoring + passing is greater than Jordan's. Or any other player's in history for that matter.

[ScottieQuitting]

Why would you want to do that? There's literally hundreds of other things you could do better with your time.

Get your shit together.
Kuntniva, I come here once in a blue moon. My shit is fine. This is entertainment.

[iamgine]

Sure. There’s just little reason to do it because it has zero to do with basketball.

Yes Kobe with old man knees shoots 35%. Even supreme skill guys like Nash were average or a little above at the end when their body goes.

You can’t split up skills and the body needed to apply them.
Kobe with old man knees without the skills might've shot 15%.

You can totally split up skills and body. There was a guy at my gym who has no skill but get buckets cause he's 6'8 and everyone else is 5'9.

[Bawkish]

Depends on what court they're playing on.
If it's a court with a normal 3-point line, which was out of Jordan's range, then Durant is a better scorer.
If it's a court with a nerfed 3-point line like between 1994-1997 where Jordan was a great 3-point shooter, then I'd take Jordan's scoring.

"Offensively skilled" also includes passing ability though, and LeBron's combination of scoring + passing is greater than Jordan's. Or any other player's in history for that matter.

MJ once held the Finals record of shooting 3s in a half

while Bron was consistently held below 10 pts during 4th quarters

this kid is talking out of his a$$

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe with old man knees without the skills might've shot 15%.

You can totally split up skills and body. There was a guy at my gym who has no skill but get buckets cause he's 6'8 and everyone else is 5'9.

If you could live off skills people wouldn’t get old and suck. Kareem had no skill in 1971 he didn’t have in 1990. Without the body to apply them they are stuck in his head. You can’t split them up in reality. Only hypotheticals.

[Micku]

He was the best combination of skills and althetic ability.

Yeah, pretty much. He had the best combination of both. His skillset was amazing, but combine with his athleticism and shot selection was great too. He had the crazy ability to shoot a lot, but not disrupt the flow of the team's offense. And he jumps so high with so much hang time on his shot. Amazing first step, great footwork, and just didn't really have a weakness. And he is a great passer, but rather kind'a unwilling at times.

KD in terms of scoring might has less weakness overall. Although he doesn't have the footwork or the post as MJ, he is better shooter. FT and 3pt shot. But, MJ is better of the volume and better midrange. More consistent at making his shots and getting points up there. MJ had more moves.

But MJ is probably the best scorer we ever seen, minus Wilt I guess. As you and other ppl said, he was near the top on skills and athleticism, which made him so dangerous.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yes, he is the best offensive player of all time.

People are lying to themselves by trying to say he is "only" a scorer. MJ was 35/7/7 on elite efficiency 85-93 playoffs. 29.6 PER and a MASSIVE 12.1 BPM.

This. Don't forget the 2.3 stl/1+ blk.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't think a guy like Nash is more offensively skilled than Jordan. Nash is a better passer (by a good margin), roughly equal midrange shooter, and better long-range shooter than Jordan. Jordan is a better post player by far, better off-ball player by far, better in the triple-threat by far, better footwork, better slasher/penetrator and finisher by far. Overall if peak MJ was like a 100 on offense, I'd give a guy like Nash a 92-95. A guy like Lebron would be a 94-97.

[rmt]

He was the best combination of skills and althetic ability.

Don't forget the mental/competitive part too.

[iamgine]

If you could live off skills people wouldn’t get old and suck. Kareem had no skill in 1971 he didn’t have in 1990. Without the body to apply them they are stuck in his head. You can’t split them up in reality. Only hypotheticals.

Literally no one saying anything about living off skills without the body. Or splitting a person up in reality.

[Round Mound]

Don't forget the mental/competitive part too.

Yup. He learned his metal/competitive part from Bird. Bird was even colder than Jordan was but Bird lacked the athletic ability and amazing energy Jordan had and stustained for the whole game. Larry also lacked longevity because the dude just played too hard for his body type. Both are the most mental/competitive players i've seen. Prime Barkley also was in that category when he played pissed off. I´ve seen very few players that could dominate a game with scoring and rebounding the way he did. His brash and agressive personality also brought in a lot of haters (same ones that did not vote for him for the1990 MVP, which he deserved more than any player that season).

[TheGoatest]

MJ once held the Finals record of shooting 3s in a half

while Bron was consistently held below 10 pts during 4th quarters

this kid is talking out of his a$$

Jordan's 3pt% in 1996-97: .374 on 3.6 3PA
Jordan's 3pt% in 1997-98: .238 on 1.5 3PA

Gee, I wonder what could've happened between those two seasons.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan's 3pt% in 1996-97: .374 on 3.6 3PA
Jordan's 3pt% in 1997-98: .238 on 1.5 3PA

Gee, I wonder what could've happened between those two seasons.

Oh, you mean the torn ligament and cracked knuckle on the index finger of his shooting hand?

Yeah, let's completely overlook that MJ shot it from deep at the normal line just fine a number of times any time he took more than a trifling number of shots for downtown:

1990: 38% on 3 attempts/gm
1993: 36% on 3 attempts/gm

1991-1993 playoffs: average of 38.5% from deep, including an impressive 39% from downtown on 4 attempts/gm in the '93 playoffs.

All the above are from the normal line. But yeah...keep trying.

[TheGoatest]

Oh, you mean the torn ligament and cracked knuckle on the index finger of his shooting hand?

Yeah, let's completely overlook that MJ shot it from deep at the normal line just fine a number of times any time he took more than a trifling number of shots for downtown:

1990: 38% on 3 attempts/gm
1993: 36% on 3 attempts/gm

1991-1993 playoffs: average of 38.5% from deep, including an impressive 39% from downtown on 4 attempts/gm in the '93 playoffs.

All the above are from the normal line. But yeah...keep trying.

Yeah, let's ignore the 19% from the 3-point line he shot in the 1997 playoffs. Let's ignore all those 15-20% shooting seasons he had early in his career, when he was way better at driving at the basket than he was later. Let's ignore him shooting 19% after he came back with the Wizards and 3-pointers were a bigger part of the game. And before you say he was too old, Dirk Nowitzki had a season where he shot .409 from the 3-point line at the age of 39. Let's just cherry-pick the best percentages out of his career. All-right, let's.

Durant's 5 best 3-point shooting seasons from the normal 3-point line:

.422
.419
.416
.403
.391

Jordan's 5 best 3-point shooting seasons from the normal 3-point line:

.376
.352
.312
.291
.276

Durant's best 3-point shooting playoff runs from the normal 3-point line (all lasted at least 12 games):

.442
.438
.373
.344
.341

Jordan's best 3-point shooting playoff runs from the normal 3-point line, which lasted more than 3 games:

.389
.386
.385
.333
.320

And this is all with Durant taking at least twice as many 3-point attempts as Jordan. LOL @ you mentioning Jordan's 3 whopping 3-point attempts per game as if that's impressive when you have star players today taking 10+ 3-point attempts per game.

You could say that if Jordan entered the league today, he would focus more on his 3-point shot because the game is different, and he would build up a better 3-point shot. Maybe he would, but that's all hypothetical. I'm saying that based on what we actually do know of Jordan's 3-point shooting behind the normal 3-point line, he is not as good of a scorer as Kevin Durant on a court with a normal 3-point line.

[Micku]

Yeah, let's ignore the 19% from the 3-point line he shot in the 1997 playoffs. Let's ignore all those 15-20% shooting seasons he had early in his career, when he was way better at driving at the basket than he was later. Let's ignore him shooting 19% after he came back with the Wizards and 3-pointers were a bigger part of the game. And before you say he was too old, Dirk Nowitzki had a season where he shot .409 from the 3-point line at the age of 39. Let's just cherry-pick the best percentages out of his career. All-right, let's.

Durant's 5 best 3-point shooting seasons from the normal 3-point line:

.422
.419
.416
.403
.391

Jordan's 5 best 3-point shooting seasons from the normal 3-point line:

.376
.352
.312
.291
.276

Durant's best 3-point shooting playoff runs from the normal 3-point line (all lasted at least 12 games):

.442
.438
.373
.344
.341

Jordan's best 3-point shooting playoff runs from the normal 3-point line, which lasted more than 3 games:

.389
.386
.385
.333
.320

And this is all with Durant taking at least twice as many 3-point attempts as Jordan. LOL @ you mentioning Jordan's 3 whopping 3-point attempts per game as if that's impressive when you have star players today taking 10+ 3-point attempts per game.

You could say that if Jordan entered the league today, he would focus more on his 3-point shot because the game is different, and he would build up a better 3-point shot. Maybe he would, but that's all hypothetical. I'm saying that based on what we actually do know of Jordan's 3-point shooting behind the normal 3-point line, he is not as good of a scorer as Kevin Durant on a court with a normal 3-point line.

MJ averaged 37 ppg with the normal 3pt line. And he consistently averaged 30 almost throughout his career even with the normal 3pt line.

I don't know how you can say that when we already have the proof tho. MJ not only scored more than Durant, but he scored more in the playoff with his ppg. And he is efficient to the boot. And this is before analytics and when spacing became a huge deal. The paint was more crowded up. And the rules going against the perimeter players at the time. I can see the argument of KD being the better shooter. And I think he is. But that doesn't mean he is the better scorer. MJ had more more moves to put the points on the board and free himself up. He did in the RS and the playoffs. And again, he was efficient. Just because you have better 3pt shot that doesn't mean you are the better scorer, obviously.

Like Curry, right? He's a better 3pt shooter than anyone. But I don't think he is a better scorer than LeBron, KD, Kobe, T-Mac at his peak, Shaq and etc.

Like I really don't understand how you can say that when MJ averaged 40 ppg in the finals with the normal 3pt line. And in his whole playoff career, he only average less than 30 ppg once. And that was his rookie season. And in rookie season, he averaged 29.3 ppg. KD only average more than 30 ppg twice in the playoffs. I mean....how is he not better than KD in scoring when he obviously scored more? And you can just look at MJ games to analyze how he scored and imo it's more impressive to check out that skillset.

But what do you consider to be a great scorer and what makes Durant better than Jordan? Like I get you if you are willing to say that KD is dangerous cuz of his FT shooting and his 3pt shot. But that doesn't make him better when he doesn't put up the points and sometimes he is just as efficient MJ in the playoffs but with less volume, with the exception of 2012 and GSW where he is crazy. But c'mon, that's GSW.

It could be and is a lot of reasons why. Like we could go step by step why on KD on every part of his shooting, which area floor, and take a look at his skillset and why sometimes he isn't as efficient or just don't score more. With MJ is harder to do. We only got a glimpse of the statistic side of things of the 97 season and beyond on the floor efficiency from the rim, to midrange, to the 3pt ball. Some dude over here did stats manually on the playoffs with MJ in the early 90s and late 80s, and it's insane. Like if you thought MJ shooting nearly 50% in 97 was impressive or 44% witht he midrange at that high of volume in the playoffs, the 80s and 90s was even crazier. He was a better finisher back then too.

[light]

I don't think there's many people who disagree that for his position he is the most offensively skilled, but what about among all the players? Like if you were to use a sliding scale.

No, he was a bad three point shooter and he didn't like to pass.

Phil Jackson literally had to trick him to get him to pass the ball.

[3ball]

.
His scoring instinct was alien - he knew which move would work quickest, and this was instinctual


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-29-2020/fYESIR.gif


New fans discover his gaudy scoring average and assume he was this massive ball-hog like Harden - but they're conflating ball-domination/overdribbling with high shot volume - MJ shot a lot but he used mostly quick instinctual moves (that still required goat footwork, skill and athletic ability)


Here's more goat instinct/skill/athletic ability:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-19-2020/asU2dk.gif



the gif below is literally PERFECT offense, including goat drop-step ability (power) for a non-big:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-29-2020/prExGf.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/Kxoq9J.gif


^^^ notice how he perfectly seals the post defender, so he can set up a no-dribble, drop-step finish over the help that he knows is there... prime Dwight Howard would nod in approval at such a seal, drop step ability and power

oh, and he had the goat jumpshot (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uj1Hw4xgC_Q).. or here's the Ringer's ode to Jordan's jumpshot (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Op_kpfeUX9w)

[ZenMaster7210]

Michael just is the GOAT hands down! Thank you for posting the videos. :dancin: :applause::pimp::hammertime:

[Gudo]

Got to appreciate everytime I see it. MJ’s decision making on offense is so quick and the ability to finish in traffic is incredible.

[3ball]

Got to appreciate everytime I see it. MJ’s decision making on offense is so quick and the ability to finish in traffic is incredible.

it's important to note that the gifs from the previous post are all iso's

previous eras had less spacing/closer help defenders, and therefore had to iso much quicker and in tighter spaces... this required more instinct and mastery of moves or shot types, aka superior iso players...

otoh, today's players have tons of spacing, so they have all day to set up the iso and plan their scoring foray through defenders.. this results in a predictable dribble-heavy approach and less instinct or pure scoring ability