ball movement has a better long-run championship expectation than ball-dominance

[3ball]

ball-dominant teams usually fall short of championship ceiling and simply aren't good at winning Finals, so ball-dominant players have lower long run championship expectation and are therefore inferior players

who cares if your skillset is good at beating the conference finals level of it literally sucks at winning the Finals (18-31, worst-ever in modern era)

[Mr. Woke]

3ball still coping. Dr. Phil would love to have you on his show.

Jordan was worth only 2 wins to the Bulls. The year before he retired, the Bulls were 57-25. In the first year of his retirement, with basically the same team, they were 55-27. 57 - 55 = 2. If Jordan was so valuable to the Bulls, you would think the Bulls would have struggled without him, like the Lakers did when Magic retired, or the Celtics did in 1989, when Larry Bird only played 6 games -- despite having 2 top-50 players (Parish & McHale), a former playoff MVP (Dennis Johnson), Reggie Lewis and Danny Ainge (for part of the season); they slipped 15 games and couldn't even win half of their games without Bird (who played the first 6).

[ralph_i_el]

So you're saying this era is the best era of all time, because of the amount of ball movement. Cool

It's a much better style of basketball than, I don't know, posting up your two guard every other possession for 1-on-1's and fadeaways.

I will not be reading replies.

[3ball]

So you're saying this era is the best era of all time, because of the amount of ball movement. Cool

It's a much better style of basketball than, I don't know, posting up your two guard every other possession for 1-on-1's and fadeaways.

I will not be reading replies.

actually, today's format is ball-dominance, aka high-screen drive-and-kick

in addition to ball-dominance, today's game is TALENT-BASED-WINNING, aka team-hopping...
mercenary chemistry/brand doesn't compare to organic chemistry, so previous era's would demolish today's hodge-podge of mercenary collusion and weak chemistry

aka the 80's Celtics/Lakers were super-teams that developed organic chemistry through years of growth - the organic teamwork would be similar to the Spurs/Warriors and beat lebron by record amount the same way

[FKAri]

Look. I get it. You want to watch a bunch of guys share the basketball, have some fun, have a heart to heart after the game about what lessons they've learned, the friends they made along the way, and how it's OK to succ a dicc every now and then. I on the other hand want to watch a game where the star is like Rambo except he's using his dicc like a machine gun. We're all different and that's OK. If anything we need more people like you on this planet. We have a goddamn population crisis.

[3ball]

3ball still coping. Dr. Phil would love to have you on his show.

Jordan was worth only 2 wins to the Bulls. The year before he retired, the Bulls were 57-25. In the first year of his retirement, with basically the same team, they were 55-27. 57 - 55 = 2. If Jordan was so valuable to the Bulls, you would think the Bulls would have struggled without him, like the Lakers did when Magic retired, or the Celtics did in 1989, when Larry Bird only played 6 games -- despite having 2 top-50 players (Parish & McHale), a former playoff MVP (Dennis Johnson), Reggie Lewis and Danny Ainge (for part of the season); they slipped 15 games and couldn't even win half of their games without Bird (who played the first 6).

ball-dominator teams always fall off without their ball-dominator - see nash and cp3 teams collapse without them in 12' and 13'

aka the Lakers task Caruso with running bron-ball when lebron is out - no wonder they fall off.. teams keep running the same offense but with the backup ball-dominator, aka collapse

otoh, ball movement teams keep moving the ball when the star is out, so they can remain viable (2nd round caliber is possible, aka 20' Raps or 94' Bulls... and the warriors/spurs would still win games when duncan or curry was out)

[Mr. Woke]

The poster from Jordan's Nike commercial admits his own foolishness. On the poster it says, "I have lost over 200 games in my career. Note, not "we", but "I". Jordan, SINGLEHANDEDLY is responsible for OVER 200 losses. What a cancer! This is approximately 51% of the losses, which can be attributed solely to him! Just think, in 1996, Jordan was singlehandedly responsible for about half of the 10 losses. That means that without him, the Bulls would have only lost 5 games. They would be 77-5. In 1984-85, the Bulls finished 38-44. I proved earlier that Jordan is only worth 2 wins. Jordan is also the cause of half the losses, so without him, the record would be 36-22 (or 51-31 over the course of an 82 game season). This proves that Jordan is the single biggest loser in history.

[Mr. Woke]

ball-dominator teams always fall off without their ball-dominator - see nash and cp3 teams collapse without them in 12' and 13'

aka the Lakers task Caruso with running bron-ball when lebron is out - no wonder they fall off.. teams keep running the same offense but with the backup ball-dominator, aka collapse

otoh, ball movement teams keep moving the ball when the star is out, so they can remain viable (2nd round caliber is possible, aka 20' Raps or 94' Bulls... and the warriors/spurs would still win games when duncan or curry was out)

How come the Warriors and Spurs don't win the championship every year then? If "ball-movement" is supposedly so valuable.

[3ball]

Look. I get it. You want to watch a bunch of guys share the basketball, have some fun, have a heart to heart after the game about what lessons they've learned, the friends they made along the way, and how it's OK to succ a dicc every now and then. I on the other hand want to watch a game where the star is like Rambo except he's using his dicc like a machine gun. We're all different and that's OK. If anything we need more people like you on this planet. We have a goddamn population crisis.

your guy is afraid to shoot and scared of the clutch.. he loves deferring to lesser teammates

ultimately, he shares the load with teammates (tiny margins over teammates in every category, aka shared load), whereas mj carried the scoring load (10-30 more than Pippen in every series) and shared the remaining categories like lebron (tiny margins)

[Shooter]

3ball still coping. Dr. Phil would love to have you on his show.

Jordan was worth only 2 wins to the Bulls. The year before he retired, the Bulls were 57-25. In the first year of his retirement, with basically the same team, they were 55-27. 57 - 55 = 2. If Jordan was so valuable to the Bulls, you would think the Bulls would have struggled without him, like the Lakers did when Magic retired, or the Celtics did in 1989, when Larry Bird only played 6 games -- despite having 2 top-50 players (Parish & McHale), a former playoff MVP (Dennis Johnson), Reggie Lewis and Danny Ainge (for part of the season); they slipped 15 games and couldn't even win half of their games without Bird (who played the first 6).

Annnnd

SCENE

[3ball]

How come the Warriors and Spurs don't win the championship every year then? If "ball-movement" is supposedly so valuable.

if you look at the 4 dynasties since 1990 (bulls, lakers, spurs, warriors), they all ran equal-opportunity, ball movement systems - these systems were the key to their consistency but required players of all-round skill to execute them (players who could play on-ball and off-ball and shoot elitely)

also, sufficient talent can still beat a great brand - see the 16' Finals where the Cavs had more talent (Kyrie destroyed Curry).. and that's my point with lebron - he can't play the best brand, so he needs extra talent to win

his brand turns teammates to play-finishers, which doesn't develop brand or young players, so he needs ready-made stars acquired via team-hopping (talent-based-winning)

[Mr. Woke]

if you look at the 4 dynasties since 1990 (bulls, lakers, spurs, warriors), they all ran equal-opportunity, ball movement systems - these systems were the key to their consistency but required players of all-round skill to execute them (players who could play on-ball and off-ball and shoot elitely)

also, sufficient talent can still beat a great brand - see the 16' Finals where the Cavs had more talent (Kyrie destroyed Curry).. and that's my point with lebron - he can't play the best brand, so he needs extra talent to win

his brand turns teammates to play-finishers, which doesn't develop brand or young players, so he needs ready-made stars acquired via team-hopping (talent-based-winning)

The Bulls of the 1990s and the Lakers of the early 2000s dominated during a weaker/softer era.

The Spurs have never won at least two championships in a row.

The Warriors beat a Cavs team in 2015 that missed Kevin Love for the entire Finals and Kyrie for most of the Finals. Later on they added KD and were simply too good for the Cavs.

MJ never faced an opponent like the Warriors with Steph, KD, Klay, and Dray.

[3ball]

MJ never faced an opponent like the Warriors with Steph, KD, Klay, and Dray.




tons of teams have overcome bigger talent deficits, aka the 11' Mavs or the 04' Pistons

or the 89' Bulls vs #1 SRS Cleveland - cleveland had 3 all-stars plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper and the bulls had zero

and people forget that the Bad Boys had 3x all-stars at every starting spot (except rodman was 2x).. so the bulls had a massive talent deficit when they won in 1991 (Pippen wasn't even an all-star in 91')

heck, kyrie averaged 29 ppg in the 17' Finals - but it was a your-turn-my-turn with lebron (weak brand).. if kyrie was getting that 29 alongside mj in a ball movement system, then the Cavs win easily... and mj isn't letting KD get 35 ppg.. KD would get contained like Beverly or tony allen did him

[bdonovan]

3ball still coping. Dr. Phil would love to have you on his show.

Jordan was worth only 2 wins to the Bulls. The year before he retired, the Bulls were 57-25. In the first year of his retirement, with basically the same team, they were 55-27. 57 - 55 = 2. If Jordan was so valuable to the Bulls, you would think the Bulls would have struggled without him, like the Lakers did when Magic retired, or the Celtics did in 1989, when Larry Bird only played 6 games -- despite having 2 top-50 players (Parish & McHale), a former playoff MVP (Dennis Johnson), Reggie Lewis and Danny Ainge (for part of the season); they slipped 15 games and couldn't even win half of their games without Bird (who played the first 6).


I think it depends on the definition of ball-dominance. The OP seems to be talking about ball movement vs. hero-ball style. Jordan was an excellent passer and facilitator; he'd often primarily pass the ball the first quarter or two and then take over in the second half. This contrasts with let's say James Harden who ISO's and if he can't, chucks it to whomever w/out concern for team offense. (Harden logs assists sheerly due to ball dominance and from volume of passes, not quality)

[Koresh]

This coming from a guy jizzing over Jordan. This coming from a guy who hasn't watched NBA in a decade and only reads box scores.

[Manny98]

4 rings as the best player

Most playoff wins ever

Most finals appearances in the 3 point era

Modern day Bill Russell, haters stay mad
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EmbellishedBronzeImago-size_restricted.gif
https://tenor.com/view/lebron-james-wink-gif-11836348

[Koresh]

your guy is afraid to shoot and scared of the clutch.. he loves deferring to lesser teammates

ultimately, he shares the load with teammates (tiny margins over teammates in every category, aka shared load), whereas mj carried the scoring load (10-30 more than Pippen in every series) and shared the remaining categories like lebron (tiny margins)

You just contradicted this entire thread. "Deferring to lesser teammates" is a smart play, but that's not my point. The point is ball movement has long-term championships expectations, but Jordan carried the scoring load aka no ball movement since all you care about is scoring. You then criticize LeBron for sharing load with teammates. Your thread has backfired yet again.

You don't even watch the NBA. Stop making threads. You have created the same threads for 5 years now. It's just now it's more LeBron, but in the past two years it was Curry, Kawhi and others who threatened Jordan. Now it's back to LeBron now, but now the bird-fed guy AD is carrying LeBron, but he is bird-fed. Which one is it? Stop contradicting your own arguments to fit your stupid agendas.

Watch basketball, like live basketball, not highlights, or reading box scores. You are completely pathetic.

[8Ball]

Jordan needed a basketball system to become a facilitator and move the ball around.

Jordan needs a system like "Lebron Ball" to succeed, or the triangle. Take your pick.

[sdot_thadon]

I cringe everytime I see Bulls and ''equal opportunity " offense in the same sentence. One guy taking 20 more shots than the next on a team full of guys complaining about shots.....

[3ball]

Jordan needed a basketball system to become a facilitator and move the ball around.

Jordan needs a system like "Lebron Ball" to succeed, or the triangle. Take your pick.

jordan averaged 33/8/8 in 89', including a 24-game stretch at PG (30/9/11)... after just a few games at PG, the national media was already saying that he was a better PG than Magic, Isiah, and stockton

so he was always a great passer, but his goat scoring simply overshadowed it

and Phil inherited a te on the cusp of the Finals.. In 89' (before Phil), Jordan almost beat the Pistons despite Pippen getting 10 on 40% - so he would've won with anyone OTHER than Pippen, thus proving he didn't need Pippen (and Phil wasn't there in 79', so he didn't need either to win)

[3ball]

I cringe everytime I see Bulls and ''equal opportunity " offense in the same sentence. One guy taking 20 more shots than the next on a team full of guys complaining about shots.....

^^^ that's how little offensive help mj had..

when Pippen was averaging 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals, you think he deserved MORE shots??.. :yaohappy:

how about when he averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' playoffs??... or 19 on 42% in 6 Finals??... or 12 on 42% vs the 88-90' Pistons??... or 45% true shooting in the 93' Finals?... or 16 on 40% in about a dozen different series???

you think Pippen deserved more shots in these scemarios???... :kobe:... :whatever:

so mj had to take those shots because teammates played at capacity alongside mj, or very close - the stats show this clearly, whereas the stats show the opposite for lebron

we've been over these facts, so I'm surprised you're still chirping the same tune, "mj scored more because he shot more, hurrrdurrr"... okay, well lebron gets more assists because he dribbles and hogs the ball more

offensively, pippen would rank 5th and possibly 7th among teammates in lebron's career.. his peak was 21 ppg in the Finals, compared to 36 for wade and 29 for Kyrie and 33 for AD (35 after he drops 40 tonight).. pippen's peak season was 22 ppg, or nothing compared to lebron's teammates

and the bulls had no 3rd option

it's simply the least offensive help that any multiple champion ever had

[sdot_thadon]

^^^ that's how little offensive help mj had..

when Pippen was averaging 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals, you think he deserved MORE shots??.. :yaohappy:

how about when he averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' playoffs??... or 19 on 42% in 6 Finals??... or 12 on 42% vs the 88-90' Pistons??... or 45% true shooting in the 93' Finals?... or 16 on 40% in about a dozen different series???

you think Pippen deserved more shots in these scemarios???... :kobe:... :whatever:

so mj had to take those shots because teammates played at capacity alongside mj, or very close - the stats show this clearly, whereas the stats show the opposite for lebron

we've been over these facts, so I'm surprised you're still chirping the same tune, "mj scored more because he shot more, hurrrdurrr"... okay, well lebron gets more assists because he dribbles and hogs the ball more

offensively, pippen would rank 5th and possibly 7th among teammates in lebron's career.. his peak was 21 ppg in the Finals, compared to 36 for wade and 29 for Kyrie and 33 for AD (35 after he drops 40 tonight).. pippen's peak season was 22 ppg, or nothing compared to lebron's teammates

and the bulls had no 3rd option

it's simply the least offensive help that any multiple champion ever had

You actually didn't refute a single thing I said. Glad we agree.:cheers:

[8Ball]

jordan averaged 33/8/8 in 89', including a 24-game stretch at PG (30/9/11)... after just a few games at PG, the national media was already saying that he was a better PG than Magic, Isiah, and stockton

so he was always a great passer, but his goat scoring simply overshadowed it

and Phil inherited a te on the cusp of the Finals.. In 89' (before Phil), Jordan almost beat the Pistons despite Pippen getting 10 on 40% - so he would've won with anyone OTHER than Pippen, thus proving he didn't need Pippen (and Phil wasn't there in 79', so he didn't need either to win)


Jordan-Ball needed to be replaced with a superior system "the triangle" in order to win.