LeBron and MJ are interchangeable as the GOAT

[2ball]

4 chips moved Bron even with MJ. Yes MJ has 6 but he has a couple weak runs coupled with Bron having better overall stats and they are even

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem is still the GOAT to me.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kareem is still the GOAT to me.
What's your top 5?

[Roundball_Rock]

What's your top 5?

1) Kareem
2) Jordan
3) LeBron
4) Wilt
5) Russell

I can see people having different lists. What I don't get is people acting like there is a notable difference between KAJ and MJ/LeBron with those two being on a tier of their own.

[nineiron]

4 chips moved Bron even with MJ. Yes MJ has 6 but he has a couple weak runs coupled with Bron having better overall stats and they are even

LMFAO

Ray Allen
Kyrie Irving

2/10

[ImKobe]

MJ and Kobe*. Lebron's behind the Shaq & Duncan at the 7-10 range.

[RRR3]

MJ and Kobe*. Lebron's behind the Shaq & Duncan at the 7-10 range.
LeBron has twice as many FMVPs as Kobe.

[ImKobe]

LeBron has twice as many FMVPs as Kobe.

He has 3 FMVPs. Kobe has more championships and faced better competition in the majority of his title runs.

[HylianNightmare]

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Lebron
Wilt

Not bad

[1987_Lakers]

1) Kareem
2) Jordan
3) LeBron
4) Wilt
5) Russell

I can see people having different lists. What I don't get is people acting like there is a notable difference between KAJ and MJ/LeBron with those two being on a tier of their own.

I'm not high on Wilt as you are. His offensive impact might be overrated, the Warriors were never an elite offensive team with Wilt, The Sixers offense in 1969 was just as good without Wilt than it was with Wilt in 1968 and the Lakers offense saw a drop off when Wilt joined them in 1969. That is pretty telling to me. From film I've seen of him his offensive post game seems underwhelming as well, young Wilt was just faster, stronger, and taller than his opponents, as he aged he seemed pretty stiff as a post player, Kareem was much more skilled. Wilt's defense was outstanding though, especially as he aged.

[RRR3]

He has 3 FMVPs. Kobe has more championships and faced better competition in the majority of his title runs.
You know damn well LeBron is about to win his fourth. Kobe averaged 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS% in the 2000 finals, that is not something that gives him an edge over LeBron :roll: And the 2002 ring was literally confirmed to have been the result of rigging. So we are somehow saying Kobe's 01, 09 and 10 rings are worth more than LeBron's 12, 13, 16 and 20 rings? :roll:

[dbugz]

4*

this one has the biggest *

Will give him the 10th spot.

[nineiron]

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Kobe
Shaw Duncan
Wilt

Not bad


fixed

[light]

LeBron is clearly superior and it isn't close.

[nineiron]

LeBron is clearly superior and it isn't close.

hi bronny

[ImKobe]

You know damn well LeBron is about to win his fourth. Kobe averaged 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS% in the 2000 finals, that is not something that gives him an edge over LeBron :roll: And the 2002 ring was literally confirmed to have been the result of rigging. So we are somehow saying Kobe's 01, 09 and 10 rings are worth more than LeBron's 12, 13, 16 and 20 rings? :roll:

Lakers don't make the Finals in '00 without Kobe's WCF performance and they don't win the Finals without his Game 4 heroics, the numbers are skewed due to his 1st quarter injury in Game 2. 2002 ring is more legitimate than the '20 one. Kings had the chance to win at home in Game 7 and airballed wide open corner 3s and bricked FTs, not the Lakers' fault they couldn't close games.

Lebron's 2020 title is on par with Kobe's '00 ring as Davis has been better than him for the majority of the Playoffs, not to mention the 4 months he had off to rest prior to the POs.

[RRR3]

Lakers don't make the Finals in '00 without Kobe's WCF performance and they don't win the Finals without his Game 4 heroics, the numbers are skewed due to his 1st quarter injury in Game 2. 2002 ring is more legitimate than the '20 one. Kings had the chance to win at home in Game 7 and airballed wide open corner 3s and bricked FTs, not the Lakers' fault they couldn't close games.

Lebron's 2020 title is on par with Kobe's '00 ring as Davis has been better than him for the majority of the Playoffs, not to mention the 4 months he had off to rest prior to the POs.
This isn't even good trolling. Kobe isn't even close to LeBron, it's pathetic you cant accept that.

[ImKobe]

This isn't even good trolling. Kobe isn't even close to LeBron, it's pathetic you cant accept that.

Accept what? Kobe's ahead of Lebron for me personally & likely always will be. One Disney championship isn't going to change that.

[RRR3]

Accept what? Kobe's ahead of Lebron for me personally & likely always will be. One Disney championship isn't going to change that.
Accept reality. Ranking Kobe 2nd all time is borderline psychotic. Just because Kobe gives you a gigantic boner doesn't make him better at basketball than LeBron, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Bill Russell, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan or Bird.

[dankok8]

Lebron is putting up as good stats as he has in his other title runs but I feel like he's playing on a significantly lower level than in 2012, 2013 and 2016. His impact is just lower and when he steps off the floor, it feels like his team doesn't miss a beat especially when Rondo is on. Not to mention that Davis is definitely his best partner to this point in his career where it's 1a/1b situation. Lebron is a bit more important to the team than Davis but it's very close ala Shaq/Kobe in 2001 and 2002 or Curry/KD in 2017 and 2018 or Magic/Kareem in 1982 and 1985.

[RRR3]

Lebron is putting up as good stats as he has in his other title runs but I feel like he's playing on a significantly lower level than in 2012, 2013 and 2016. His impact is just lower and when he steps off the floor, it feels like his team doesn't miss a beat especially when Rondo is on. Not to mention that Davis is definitely his best partner to this point in his career where it's 1a/1b situation. Lebron is a bit more important to the team than Davis but it's very close ala Shaq/Kobe in 2001 and 2002 or Curry/KD in 2017 and 2018 or Magic/Kareem in 1982 and 1985.
Lakers are +11.8 per 100 posessions with LeBron. +0.3 for Rondo.

[tpols]

There's levels to rings.

Pure alpha ring
Co-leader ring
Sidekick ring
Role player ring

This is what is known as a level 3 ~ "sidekick" ring. Ala young Kobe or Kawhi or older Clyde. But it is a clear deal below levels 1 and 2.

[SouBeachTalents]

There's levels to rings.

Pure alpha ring
Co-leader ring
Sidekick ring
Role player ring

This is what is known as a level 3 ~ "sidekick" ring. Ala young Kobe or Kawhi or older Clyde. But it is a clear deal below levels 1 and 2.
Might be the first sidekick to finish 2nd in MVP voting and win FMVP

[RRR3]

Might be the first sidekick to finish 2nd in MVP voting and win FMVP
Dude is losing it. Imagine how bad he’ll be if LBJ gets 5

[tpols]

Might be the first sidekick to finish 2nd in MVP voting and win FMVP

Look... we're Kobe fans.. I think we know a thing or two about rings.

Not the best player on the team win FMVP all the time ~ 2018, 2017, 2015, 2014, 2008, 2007 etc.

[RRR3]

Look... we're Kobe fans.. I think we know a thing or two about rings.

Not the best player on the team win FMVP all the time ~ 2018, 2017, 2015, 2014, 2008, 2007 etc.
Pretty sure LeBron fans are more qualified to talk about FMVPs.

[ImKobe]

Pretty sure LeBron fans are more qualified to talk about FMVPs.

Of course, his match-up has won more FMVPs than anyone else tbh. From Kawhi to Iggy to KD twice..

[RRR3]

Of course, his match-up has won more FMVPs than anyone else tbh. From Kawhi to Iggy to KD twice..
He’s also won 4 to Kobe’s 2.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm not high on Wilt as you are. His offensive impact might be overrated, the Warriors were never an elite offensive team with Wilt, The Sixers offense in 1969 was just as good without Wilt than it was with Wilt in 1968 and the Lakers offense saw a drop off when Wilt joined them in 1969. That is pretty telling to me. From film I've seen of him his offensive post game seems underwhelming as well, young Wilt was just faster, stronger, and taller than his opponents, as he aged he seemed pretty stiff as a post player, Kareem was much more skilled. Wilt's defense was outstanding though, especially as he aged.

Where would you have him? I give him a lot of credit for his ability to succeed in different roles. He was a GOAT scorer for the first segment of his career, became an elite facilitator, then morphed into the Russell role in his final third of his career. I rank on the idea of players being drafted in vacuums so his ability to succeed in a variety of roles is a plus to me. As noted in another thread, Jordan played the exact same role his entire career (outside of a chunk of the 89' season).

I agree with some of the critiques of Wilt--which is why I have him clearly behind MJ, KAJ and now behind LeBron as well. It is just hard for me to put any of the players behind him over him as they have their own flaws. To me KAJ, MJ are the only players with no major flaws in their games. Once you get past the "big 5" it is guys like Shaq, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Oscar, West. Would you put any of them over Wilt?


Might be the first sidekick to finish 2nd in MVP voting and win FMVP

Yeah, weird the "sidekick" was 2nd in MVP while "the man" could not even get a single first or second place vote.

https://imageproxy.themaven.net/https%3A%2F%2Fimages.saymedia-content.com%2F.image%2FMTc1NTAxMDIyNjM3MDczNTI3%2F mvpvotes0918.png?w=1240&q=20&h=711&auto=format&fit=crop&crop=focalpoint&fp-x=0.5&fp-y=0.5&fp-z=1&fp-debug=false

Not even close. AD didn't even get the most 5th place votes and overall it was 753-82. Guys have done much better than that in MVP and get dismissed as "sidekicks" yet somehow 753-82 is "1a/1b" :roll: .


Of course, his match-up has won more FMVPs than anyone else tbh. From Kawhi to Iggy to KD twice..

Good point. LeBron should have won it in 14' and 15' if it really was a FMVP vote and not a FMVPonthewinningteam award.

[Mr. Woke]

IMO King James is the GOAT. To me, he is also more likable than MJ.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope, Lebron is nowhere close to the GOAT. Truth be told, Lebron has already lost the chance after being swept in 2007. In order to match or surpass MJ, a perfect 100% finals winning percentage is a necessary condition. Any players who have lost once in NBA Finals, are automatically disqualified from GOAT conversation. Its just because MJ is too good, he set the bar high, it wasnt a hard requirement before he ascended the throne but now, its a different story. Lebron can only be as high as #2, he cant go back in time to win all the Finals he has lost.

[2ball]

Nope, Lebron is nowhere close to the GOAT. Truth be told, Lebron has already lost the chance after being swept in 2007. In order to match or surpass MJ, a perfect 100% finals winning percentage is a necessary condition. Any players who have lost once in NBA Finals, are automatically disqualified from GOAT conversation. Its just because MJ is too good, he set the bar high, it wasnt a hard requirement before he ascended the throne but now, its a different story. Lebron can only be as high as #2, he cant go back in time to win all the Finals he has lost.

MJ played in an all time weak era. Stfu

[Manny98]

Rings don't matter when LeBron destroys MJ in longevity

LeBron is the GOAT

[Kiddlovesnets]

MJ played in an all time weak era. Stfu

MJ played in a strong era, it only looked weak because he was too good and he defeated every player who would have cracked top 15 all time with titles. Imagine Charles, Payton and Malone’s legacy if MJ never existed, they couldn’t make it higher on the all time list all because of MJ’s dominance.

[2ball]

MJ played in a strong era, it only looked weak because he was too good and he defeated every player who would have cracked top 15 all time with titles. Imagine Charles, Payton and Malone’s legacy if MJ never existed, they couldn’t make it higher on the all time list all because of MJ’s dominance.

10ppg Stockton was MJ’s toughest comp

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ played in a strong era, it only looked weak because he was too good and he defeated every player who would have cracked top 15 all time with titles. Imagine Charles, Payton and Malone’s legacy if MJ never existed, they couldn’t make it higher on the all time list all because of MJ’s dominance.

Jordan's own stans (inadvertantly of course) make a vehement case that MJ's era was weak because:

1) A player of Iggy or Draymond's (depending on the MJ stain) caliber could be a MVP candidate back then, could be all-NBA over prime Malone and prime Barkley, etc.
2) A player as awesome as AD is a "sidekick" in this era (he got about a tenth of LeBron's MVP votes and zero 1st/2nd place votes) but would be Kareem (or Duncan/Hakeem) in past eras, including MJ's.
3) The teams MJ's team faced were tomato cans who never had a shot to win--no matter what their stars or they did in the series--against the Bulls.
4) The Bulls with a scrub replacing MJ still had the best roster in the league and should have won the chip with Pete Myers. A damning indictment of the competition level.

The above are all arguments put forward by MJ stans themselves.

[StrongLurk]

Mods please ban OP, sick of all the ALTS.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nope, Lebron is nowhere close to the GOAT. Truth be told, Lebron has already lost the chance after being swept in 2007. In order to match or surpass MJ, a perfect 100% finals winning percentage is a necessary condition. Any players who have lost once in NBA Finals, are automatically disqualified from GOAT conversation. Its just because MJ is too good, he set the bar high, it wasnt a hard requirement before he ascended the throne but now, its a different story. Lebron can only be as high as #2, he cant go back in time to win all the Finals he has lost.
Agreed, Barkley & Iverson did the most damage to their legacies the years that they made the Finals

[Spurs m8]

Imagine thinking this though

[jalbert009]

I'm just going to say that MJ, Lebron, Kareem and Russell are all GOATS in their own era. Why are people so fixated in doing Goat lists comparing different eras. There's so many differences that are nearly impossible to compare like Pace, rule changes, culture (team hopping), modern medicine (impacts longetivity) etc.

All the MJ vs Lebron stuff is getting repetitive and annoying. Both players have done amazing things and it's sad how basketball fans are down right disrespecting these 2 athletes. Just appreciate what they've brought to the game.

A better discussion is who was truly the Goat in the 80s and 00s.



60s - Russell
70s - Kareem
80s - Magic vs Bird
90s - Jordan
00s - Kobe vs Shaq vs Duncan
10s - Lebron

[RRR3]

Imagine thinking this though
Better get used to it “m8”. LeBron is about to be the only player in history besides MJ with at least 4 FMVPs.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm just going to say that MJ, Lebron, Kareem and Russell are all GOATS in their own era. Why are people so fixated in doing Goat lists comparing different eras. There's so many differences that are nearly impossible to compare like Pace, rule changes, culture (team hopping), modern medicine (impacts longetivity) etc.

All the MJ vs Lebron stuff is getting repetitive and annoying. Both players have done amazing things and it's sad how basketball fans are down right disrespecting these 2 athletes. Just appreciate what they've brought to the game.

A better discussion is who was truly the Goat in the 80s and 00s.



60s - Russell
70s - Kareem
80s - Magic vs Bird
90s - Jordan
00s - Kobe vs Shaq vs Duncan
10s - Lebron
I get Russell won all the titles, but Wilt should at least get a mention for the 60's

[jalbert009]

I get Russell won all the titles, but Wilt should at least get a mention for the 60's

True. You're right. Wilt deserve a mention. Russell gets the Team accolades for this Era and Wilt definetely Wins in individual Accolades for sure if we are having a discussion for Goat of the 60s

[1987_Lakers]

Where would you have him? I give him a lot of credit for his ability to succeed in different roles. He was a GOAT scorer for the first segment of his career, became an elite facilitator, then morphed into the Russell role in his final third of his career. I rank on the idea of players being drafted in vacuums so his ability to succeed in a variety of roles is a plus to me. As noted in another thread, Jordan played the exact same role his entire career (outside of a chunk of the 89' season).

I agree with some of the critiques of Wilt--which is why I have him clearly behind MJ, KAJ and now behind LeBron as well. It is just hard for me to put any of the players behind him over him as they have their own flaws. To me KAJ, MJ are the only players with no major flaws in their games. Once you get past the "big 5" it is guys like Shaq, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Oscar, West. Would you put any of them over Wilt?


To me MJ, LeBron, Kareem, & Russell are on the Mt Rushmore. 5-10 gets kinda tricky, I'm always changing it but at the moment I have it...

5. Shaq
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Magic
9. Bird
10. Kobe

I hate leaving Hakeem off the top 10, his peak was better than some guys in my top 10, but his lack of team success from '87-'92 is kinda hard for me to ignore. There was a 5 year period during his prime where his team didn't get out of the first round, if guys like Kobe or LeBron did that, they would be crucified.

[Axe]

I'm just going to say that MJ, Lebron, Kareem and Russell are all GOATS in their own era. Why are people so fixated in doing Goat lists comparing different eras. There's so many differences that are nearly impossible to compare like Pace, rule changes, culture (team hopping), modern medicine (impacts longetivity) etc.

All the MJ vs Lebron stuff is getting repetitive and annoying. Both players have done amazing things and it's sad how basketball fans are down right disrespecting these 2 athletes. Just appreciate what they've brought to the game.

A better discussion is who was truly the Goat in the 80s and 00s.



60s - Russell
70s - Kareem
80s - Magic vs Bird
90s - Jordan
00s - Kobe vs Shaq vs Duncan
10s - Lebron
Poor jerry west

[dankok8]

There's levels to rings.

Pure alpha ring
Co-leader ring
Sidekick ring
Role player ring

This is what is known as a level 3 ~ "sidekick" ring. Ala young Kobe or Kawhi or older Clyde. But it is a clear deal below levels 1 and 2.

This Lebron ring is a co-leader ring. I personally don't rate such rings any lower than pure alpha rings. Having one teammate scoring almost 30 ppg like Lebron does isn't necessarily better help than two teammates putting up 20 ppg even if the latter support would be an alpha ring.

Sidekicks rings and role player rings do count a lot less no doubt.

[jalbert009]

This Lebron ring is a co-leader ring. I personally don't rate such rings any lower than pure alpha rings. Having one teammate scoring almost 30 ppg like Lebron does isn't necessarily better help than two teammates putting up 20 ppg even if the latter support would be an alpha ring.

Sidekicks rings and role player rings do count a lot less no doubt.

I agree. Both Lebron and AD have been amazing in these finals. Both are scoring well. Lebron bringing more ball facilitating and AD just brings that superb defence.

Objectively both are deserving of the finals MVP but this award will be given to Lebron this finals.

[TheCorporation]

LeBron is clearly superior and it isn't close.

[TheCorporation]

10ppg Stockton was MJ’s toughest comp


:roll::roll: