Is Jimmy Butler more talented than any wing MJ faced in the 90’s?

[Gus Hemmingway]

Crazy thing is.. he’s like the 10th or 11th most talented wing Bron has faced :oldlol:

[Gus Hemmingway]

Bump..

[And1AllDay]

butler > drexler, starks, ehlo, hornacek, ewing, dumars

issa wrap

[dazzer87]

Danny ****ing Green???? Smh

[SATAN]

Yes. We all know it.

[90sgoat]

I like Butler, but he isn't on Drexlers level.

He isn't a Reggie Miller either, not even prime Ray Allen.

More of a Mitch Ritchmond level talent.

[Basketball IQ]

I like Butler, but he isn't on Drexlers level.

He isn't a Reggie Miller either, not even prime Ray Allen.

More of a Mitch Ritchmond level talent.

I'd take him over every player you just listed.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Everybody besides Magic Johnson. Butler has way better defense then Magic though.

The way Butler has played these playoffs, I would say he's better then any wing LeBron has faced as well! Kawhi was not yet in his prime, Durant in 2012 wasn't this good, curry 2016 sucked. It could be the bubble, Murray/Mitchell also looked like way better players then they were.

[Bronbron23]

Crazy thing is.. he’s like the 10th or 11th most talented wing Bron has faced :oldlol:

No drexler was better and so was penny before the injury although penny was more of a point i guess. Theres no excuse to let butler do what he's doing. He's not as good as the bron and lakers are making him out to look.

[tpols]

Clyde and Reggie were slightly better. Gary Payton and Penny are about equal.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He is if you never saw that era.


Clyde, Reggie, and Penny were all slightly better. Gary Payton is about equal.

Would throw in Grant Hill too. Short run, but a great player all the same.

Mitch is another underrated player who was good on both ends. Could post up, shoot and lock you up defensively.

[G0ATbe]

Everybody besides Magic Johnson. .

So the best wing MJ faced in the 90s was a guy dying from AIDS???? :roll:

[CTbasketball92]

Talent is an interesting word to use here. Umm...I'll say I don't see any of those guys like Drexler or Penny or anyone else playing as well as Jimmy has this series. It's something I can only see from MJ, LeBron and Magic, and Magic doesn't have the defense.

[iamgine]

More talented no. But the guy shows up in big games.

Kinda like Reggie Miller.

[FireDavidKahn]

People are seriously saying REGGIE MILLER is better then Butler?

What the ****?

What does Miller do that is even remotely as good as Butler aside from being an elite 3 point shooter? Nothing

:roll:

[tpols]

He is if you never saw that era.



Would throw in Grant Hill too. Short run, but a great player all the same.

Mitch is another underrated player who was good on both ends. Could post up, shoot and lock you up defensively.

Yup... almost forgot Stockton. Totally different players, but stockton is generally seen as a top ~30 player all time. Maybe 40 at worst. Is Butler that high? Not even close. I cant even imagine what John would do in this spaced out PnR heavy league. It would be absurd, he's literally the all time leader in assists AND steals in a very tough physical era. Could probably throw Mark price and kevin johnson in the mix too. KJ would destroy these running lanes... he was one of the most explosive little man slashers ever and he did it with no spacing against MONSTER centers.

[Real Men Wear Green]

OP is a 15 year old idiot that never heard of Nique. Don't blame me for him getting unbanned.

[Basketball IQ]

OP is a 15 year old idiot that never heard of Nique. Don't blame me for him getting unbanned.

Butler is the better defender and passer. That gives him the edge over Nique imo

[Basketball IQ]

Clyde and Reggie were slightly better. Gary Payton and Penny are about equal.

How the hell was Reggie better? Butler is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, and passer. The only thing Clyde has over Jimmy is athleticism, that's it. Lmao at Penny and Gary comparisons.

[tpols]

How the hell was Reggie better? Butler is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, and passer. The only thing Clyde has over Jimmy is athleticism, that's it. Lmao at Penny and Gary comparisons.

Gary Payton is a great comparison. Basically a smaller more athletic jimmy butler. Similar style player, GP is probably even tougher. You think Butler would lead the sonics farther than they ever went ~ ie the Finals? You think Butler beats MJ? You think Butler averages 24 ppg on 120+ ORTG from 1990 to 2002 like Reggie did in some of the most brutal defensive environments ever? I'm not saying they're way better, it's all slight because Butler is a great player. But yes I'd take Reggie over him, and Payton is a coin flip.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yup... almost forgot Stockton. Totally different players, but stockton is generally seen as a top ~30 player all time. Maybe 40 at worst. Is Butler that high? Not even close. I cant even imagine what John would do in this spaced out PnR heavy league. It would be absurd, he's literally the all time leader in assists AND steals in a very tough physical era. Could probably throw Mark price and kevin johnson in the mix too. KJ would destroy these running lanes... he was one of the most explosive little man slashers ever and he did it with no spacing against MONSTER centers.

Bingo. And clowns on here can't make fun of Stock or Horny either. :oldlol: You know, with a PE teacher and line cook torching LA.

The guys you noted would have career years today, the most friendly era for perimeter play. And in the bubble? Forget about it. Bubble play has inflated production across the board. Jimmy's been balling and he would wreckshop in any era, I mean, he's a tough SOB, but he aint playing LIKE THIS under normal circumstances. No homecourt and no fans on your ass matter.


How the hell was Reggie better? Butler is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, and passer. The only thing Clyde has over Jimmy is athleticism, that's it. Lmao at Penny and Gary comparisons.

You're literally only basing this on one series.

What I'm trying to say is, you're a clown.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Butler is the better defender and passer. That gives him the edge over Nique imo

You can incorrectly think that Butler has equaled Noque career vs career or that this postseason proves him to be a better player than a career 24.8 ppg scorer with two seasons over 30 when Butler's career average is 17 and high is 24. But this is about talent. Nique was a far greater athlete and better in every facet of scoring except possibly shooting threes (Nique played in an era when the primary scorer didn't normally focus on threes...and even then he's not far behind from distance). Nique was a little taller, much more athletic and more skilled as a scorer.

[Basketball IQ]

Gary Payton is a great comparison. Basically a smaller more athletic jimmy butler. Similar style player, GP is probably even tougher. You think Butler would lead the sonics farther than they ever went ~ ie the Finals? You think Butler beats MJ? You think Butler averages 24 ppg on 120+ ORTG from 1990 to 2002 like Reggie did in some of the most brutal defensive environments ever? I'm not saying they're way better, it's all slight because Butler is a great player. But yes I'd take Reggie over him, and Payton is a coin flip.

Once again, Butler is the better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. How in the hell does Reggie have an argument? Gary Payton is extremely underrated but Butler is just the better/more well-rounded player. Do I think Butler beats MJ? Idk, it depends on the team. But that has nothing to do with Jimmy being better than Gary.

[Basketball IQ]

Bingo. And clowns on here can't make fun of Stock or Horny either. :oldlol: You know, with a PE teacher and line cook torching LA.

The guys you noted would have career years today, the most friendly era for perimeter play. And in the bubble? Forget about it. Bubble play has inflated production across the board. Jimmy's been balling and he would wreckshop in any era, I mean, he's a tough SOB, but he aint playing LIKE THIS under normal circumstances. No homecourt and no fans on your ass matter.



You're literally only basing this on one series.

What I'm trying to say is, you're a clown.

No.... If you look at Clyde, Reggie, and Butler it is clear that Butler is just the better overall player.

[Basketball IQ]

You can incorrectly think that Butler has equaled Noque career vs career or that this postseason proves him to be a better player than a career 24.8 ppg scorer with two seasons over 30 when Butler's career average is 17 and high is 24. But this is about talent. Nique was a far greater athlete and better in every facet of scoring except possibly shooting threes (Nique played in an era when the primary scorer didn't normally focus on threes...and even then he's not far behind from distance). Nique was a little taller, much more athletic and more skilled as a scorer.

Still...Butler is the better passer and Defender.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No.... If you look at Clyde, Reggie, and Butler it is clear that Butler is just the better overall player.

Its only "clear" because you never watched that era, and are basing this on ONE series.

All those players get a bubble boost. Drexler would eat like a damn KING.

[tpols]

Once again, Butler is the better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. How in the hell does Reggie have an argument? Gary Payton is extremely underrated but Butler is just the better/more well-rounded player. Do I think Butler beats MJ? Idk, it depends on the team. But that has nothing to do with Jimmy being better than Gary.

That's not an argument. Butler's rebounding is totally inadmissable... no true impact on the game. His passing is as well, he makes great decisions but so did Reggie. What it comes down to is defense vs scoring. Reggie's scoring was on a totally different level than Butler's in a MUCH harsher league. Efficiency and volume. And while Butler is a better defender, reggie was still scrappy and ultra competitive. The difference between their scoring and defensive advantages slightly favors Miller imo. The fact you think he's easily better than Clyde though shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Jimmy Butler is a top 10 under the radar guy. Clyde was an MVP candidate and toted rival to MJ.

[BigShotBob]

No and in fact he'd literally be the worst and MJ would completely son him. He's on Steve Smith's level who was also hyper-competitive

[Basketball IQ]

Its only "clear" because you never watched that era, and are basing this on ONE series.

All those players get a bubble boost. Drexler would eat like a damn KING.

If this was Butler vs Hakkeem, Malone, Isaiah Thomas, or Bird, I wouldn't have an arguement. But when you say Reggie, Gary, and Drexler are better than Butler, you are severely overrating them and underrating Butler. Reggie was not the shot creator, slasher, or post player that Butler is as a scorer. Gary and Drexler lack the passing and intangibles that Butler possesses. Butler is literally an Alpha version of Pippen.

[Basketball IQ]

That's not an argument. Butler's rebounding is totally inadmissable... no true impact on the game. His passing is as well, he makes great decisions but so did Reggie. What it comes down to is defense vs scoring. Reggie's scoring was on a totally different level than Butler's in a MUCH harsher league. Efficiency and volume. And while Butler is a better defender, reggie was still scrappy and ultra competitive. The difference between their scoring and defensive advantages slightly favors Miller imo. The fact you think he's easily better than Clyde though shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Jimmy Butler is a top 10 under the radar guy. Clyde was an MVP candidate and toted rival to MJ.

You are really overrating Reggie and Payton. Clyde has an arguement but the other two don't

[Real Men Wear Green]

Still...Butler is the better passer and Defender.

"Talent" is about the ability to do something. Eric Snow was a better passer and defender than Kyrie Irving. Was he therefore more talented?

[Basketball IQ]

"Talent" is about the ability to do something. Eric Snow was a better passer and defender than Kyrie Irving. Was he therefore more talented?

No... Because what Kyrie Irving does is better than what Eric Snow did. It's like Draymond Green vs Balke Griffing. Draymond is the more well-rounded player, but Blake Griffin's scoring + passing is much more impactful than Draymond's overall game.

[Phoenix]

How many pages did we get to for the last thread where Reggie was being argued? 25 or so? Let's aim for 30 this time around guys.

[tpols]

No... Because what Kyrie Irving does is better than what Eric Snow did. It's like Draymond Green vs Balke Griffing. Draymond is the more well-rounded player, but Blake Griffin's scoring + passing is much more impactful than Draymond's overall game.

You're conflating what your original argument was with this post. So on one hand, you break everything down rigidly ~ passing, defense, scoring, rebounding... but in this case you recognize that a big gap in scoring ability can overcome not being as well rounded.

[Real Men Wear Green]

No... Because what Kyrie Irving does is better than what Eric Snow did. It's like Draymond Green vs Balke Griffing. Draymond is the more well-rounded player, but Blake Griffin's scoring + passing is much more impactful than Draymond's overall game.

Your evaluation of "impact" takes us even further from what the word talent means. And Nique didn't have high impact? Really?

[Basketball IQ]

You're conflating what your original argument was with this post. So on one hand, you break everything down rigidly ~ passing, defense, scoring, rebounding... but in this case you recognize that a big gap in scoring ability can overcome not being as well rounded.

Because there's not a huge disparity between Clyde and Butler when it comes to scoring. I would give Clyde the slight edge in scoring and maybe rebounding, but Butler has much better intangibles, defense, and passing. That is the dealbreaker for me. I still don't understand how anyone in their right mind would say Reggie is better than Butler. I could understand Clyde being better but Reggie? Hell No.

[Basketball IQ]

You're conflating what your original argument was with this post. So on one hand, you break everything down rigidly ~ passing, defense, scoring, rebounding... but in this case you recognize that a big gap in scoring ability can overcome not being as well rounded.

Nique was impactful but Butler brings much more value with his defense, passing, and intangibles. If you have both players, equal rosters, Butler will always come out ahead imo.

[3ball]

"Talent" is about the ability to do something. Eric Snow was a better passer and defender than Kyrie Irving. Was he therefore more talented?

When you say "the ability to do something", aka talent, you're talking primarily about scoring - that's basketball... Otoh, football players make pretty good defenders and the first thing they teach in 3rd grade P.E. is a chest or bounce pass.. only scoring is actual basketball

Ultimately, you're simply treating the most important thing in the game and the only direct correlation to winning - scoring - as if it's a secondary category like a frieking rebound or pass

[Real Men Wear Green]

When you say "the ability to do something", aka talent, you're talking primarily about scoring - that's basketball... Otoh, football players make pretty good defenders and the first thing they teach in 3rd grade P.E. is a chest or bounce pass.. only scoring is actual basketball

Ultimately, you're simply treating the most important thing in the game and the only direct correlation to winning - scoring - as if it's a secondary category like a frieking rebound or pass

It seems as though you've spent almost as much time reading my replies in this thread as you do watching basketball.

[tpols]

Nique was impactful but Butler brings much more value with his defense, passing, and intangibles. If you have both players, equal rosters, Butler will always come out ahead imo.

I've looked at Nique's playoff splits and they're mostly in the negative. He was awful defensively, and generally reckless offensively. He wasn't smart. He was an athlete who blinded people with his athleticism... For instance, you would probably have him over Reggie Miller, when Reggie gave nothing but positive impact. Huge positive impact. Blows him out the water both ways splits wise. And was obviously much clutcher. But in recent times people are enamored with athletes over basketball players.

[3ball]

I've looked at Nique's playoff splits and they're mostly in the negative. He was awful defensively, and generally reckless offensively. He wasn't smart. He was an athlete who blinded people with his athleticism... For instance, you would probably have him over Reggie Miller, when Reggie gave nothing but positive impact. Huge positive impact. Blows him out the water both ways splits wise. And was obviously much clutcher. But in recent times people are enamored with athletes over basketball players.

Who was his sidekick?

I think there's something to a guy getting all the defensive attention so he shoots badly, but the attention he garners elevates an absolute shit roster to 57 wins and 7 games with the Celtics - he carried the Hawks against a super-team and nearly won

Also, I don't think Nique gets credit for his MOVES - f'ing amazing, seriously.. he was a VERY skilled offensive player with great touch and mid-range shooting

(now replace Scottie's 10 on 40% in the 89' ECF with Dominique... Easy 3-peat)

[Keno]

yes, would even say he's a rich mans jordan.

[3ball]

yes, would even say he's a rich mans jordan.

Hmmm... Let's check the eye test

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SUo8skGvl-Q

:no:

[tpols]

Who was his sidekick?

I think there's something to a guy getting all the defensive attention so he shoots badly, but the attention he garners elevates an absolute shit roster to 57 wins and 7 games with the Celtics - he carried the Hawks against a super-team and nearly won

Also, I don't think Nique gets credit for his MOVES - f'ing amazing, seriously.. he was a VERY skilled offensive player with great touch and mid-range shooting

(now replace Scottie's 10 on 40% in the 89' ECF with Dominique... Easy 3-peat)

He didn't have one, but looking at the splits Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis outplayed him. Nique shot on 51 TS with -12 overall splits, while having the worst DRTG amongst the heavily utilized players by a lot. How was he not able to play defense while being so athletic? Maybe you could say he was saving his energy for offense, but he shot like shit... so that argument doesn't work. If Lebron ever averaged those efficiencies he would've lost in an early round every time.

[3ball]

He didn't have one, but looking at the splits Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis outplayed him. Nique shot on 51 TS with -12 overall splits, while having the worst DRTG amongst the heavily utilized players by a lot. How was he not able to play defense while being so athletic? Maybe you could say he was saving his energy for offense, but he shot like shit... If Lebron ever averaged these efficiencies he would've lost in an early round every time.

Dominique was tasked with averaging 30, compared to 13 or 14 for rivers/willis

They wouldn't shoot anywhere near Dominique if they were tasked with 30 ppg.. Dominique's 30 was the foundation that allowed competitiveness versus 12-win lottery team .. ditto 87-89 MJ

[tpols]

Dominique was tasked with averaging 30, compared to 13 or 14 for rivers/willis

They wouldn't shoot anywhere near Dominique if they were tasked with 30 ppg.. Dominique's 30 was the foundation that allowed competitiveness versus 12-win lottery team .. ditto 87-89 MJ

I get that... but look at his splits. Every year... for a decade plus, he was in the negative every. single. year. His whole prime he shot like shit and had a worse defensive metric than most players on his team. Contrast that with Pippen, who has positive splits most of his career despite being a poor shooter because... defense. Pippen played ben wallace level defense and nique was melo. That's what it comes down to.

[90sgoat]

I'd take him over every player you just listed.

Recency bias.

Drexler was very good at his peak.

Had a 3 year peak in 88-91 with 27-7-6 and was a phenomenal defender and athlete.

10 x All Star. Original Dream Team member.

Butler is very good, right now, but he hasn't been on that level for his entire career.

On the other hand, Reggie Miller is possibly the greatest 3 point shooter of all time, with a career postseason average of 39% on 6 attempts. Yes, Steph shoots 4 more attempts, but also only hits 1% more in a much less defensive era.

Ray Allen admittedly is more shaky, but again, has been way more consistent than Butler.

In conclusion, Butler is very good, but he is clearly peaking right now, and his career so far hasn't been up to par with those mentioned.

[sdot_thadon]

The short answer op? No. Jimmy doesn't do it on a consistent basis enough to make that claim. He'd be up there in a discussion for sure though. He'd be in the top 5 of wings Mj faced in a meaningful setting....

.......but, if this isn't a one off thing for Jimmy or if we're putting what he's doing in this particular moment in a bottle then the answer is yeah. MJ never faced this high a level of play from a wing in a series opposite of him. Maybe someone has slipped my mind over the years help me out here if so.

[3ball]

I get that... but look at his splits. Every year... for a decade plus, he was in the negative every. single. year. His whole prime he shot like shit and had a worse defensive metric than most players on his team. Contrast that with Pippen, who has positive splits most of his career despite being a poor shooter because... defense. Pippen played ben wallace level defense and nique was melo. That's what it comes down to.

Pippen played defense like Ben Wallace?

You lost credibility with me. You never saw pippen

Dominique took Bird to 7 games with no help and would've won in place of pippen's 10 on 40% in 89'

I've heard you argue against others that anyone would've won in place of pippen's 10 on 40%.. a guy like 87' Xavier averaged 25/9/4 against the Lakers and also destroyed pippen heads-up in the 92 ECSF - he would've won with MJ in 89', let alone the Piston-killer Worthy or Dominique

[Basketball IQ]

I've looked at Nique's playoff splits and they're mostly in the negative. He was awful defensively, and generally reckless offensively. He wasn't smart. He was an athlete who blinded people with his athleticism... For instance, you would probably have him over Reggie Miller, when Reggie gave nothing but positive impact. Huge positive impact. Blows him out the water both ways splits wise. And was obviously much clutcher. But in recent times people are enamored with athletes over basketball players.

Yes... Nique was much better than Reggie in pretty much so everything, except shooting. I would comfortably take Nique over Reggie. I would make the argument that Reggie had a much better team than Nique. Wtf do you mean by splits anyway? Saying Reggie . Nique is like saying Allen > Melo which is blasphemous.

[Basketball IQ]

Pippen played defense like Ben Wallace?

You lost credibility with me. You never saw pippen

Dominique took Bird to 7 games with no help and would've won in place of pippen's 10 on 40% in 89'

I've heard you argue against others that anyone would've won in place of pippen's 10 on 40%.. a guy like 87' Xavier averaged 25/9/4 against the Lakers and also destroyed pippen heads-up in the 92 ECSF - he would've won with MJ in 89', let alone the Piston-killer Worthy or Dominique

Pippen compliments Jordan much better than Nique would. Nique is an alpha scorer who was inferior defender, rebounder, and passer compared to Pippen. Dominique would do better with a Magic, Oscar, or Lebron.

[Micku]

Recency bias.

Drexler was very good at his peak.

Had a 3 year peak in 88-91 with 27-7-6 and was a phenomenal defender and athlete.

10 x All Star. Original Dream Team member.

Butler is very good, right now, but he hasn't been on that level for his entire career.

On the other hand, Reggie Miller is possibly the greatest 3 point shooter of all time, with a career postseason average of 39% on 6 attempts. Yes, Steph shoots 4 more attempts, but also only hits 1% more in a much less defensive era.

Ray Allen admittedly is more shaky, but again, has been way more consistent than Butler.

In conclusion, Butler is very good, but he is clearly peaking right now, and his career so far hasn't been up to par with those mentioned.

I figure it's no contest that Curry is the best 3pt shooter of all time. Not only the volume, but how he does it too. The quick catch and shoot, the way he take you off the ball, and where he shoots it at.

Reggie Miller would've possibly been better in this era than he was in the 90s, granted. But I don't think he's on Curry's lvl.

[Basketball IQ]

I figure it's no contest that Curry is the best 3pt shooter of all time. Not only the volume, but how he does it too. The quick catch and shoot, the way he take you off the ball, and where he shoots it at.

Reggie Miller would've possibly been better in this era than he was in the 90s, granted. But I don't think he's on Curry's lvl.

He would've been Klay without the defense and efficiency. Idk why you guys overrate these 90's players so much. I've heard people say that Dominique would be doing what Harden is doing, Jordan would average 50, Clyde would be modern day Lebron...etc

[90sgoat]

I figure it's no contest that Curry is the best 3pt shooter of all time. Not only the volume, but how he does it too. The quick catch and shoot, the way he take you off the ball, and where he shoots it at.

Reggie Miller would've possibly been better in this era than he was in the 90s, granted. But I don't think he's on Curry's lvl.

Agreed, but Reggie was playing in a time where Steph's dribbles would be instant carry each and every time. Iverson's crossover was a carry and called as such his first game and players today do way, way worse on every dribble.

I'm sure Curry would still be great, but just as good? I don't think he could have kept up his volume. He could probably keep his percentage, but it would be more like Steve Kerr catch and shoot imo.

Anyway, Reggie was different, because he kept his shooting into the playoffs, there was no big dropoff like you have with Curry (-5%), where as Reggie increased his attempts in the playoffs and actually kept his percentage. His style was made for the playoffs.

Curry is goat obviously, let's just give props to Reggie, and he would kill it today imo. He would probably play SF.

[90sgoat]

He would've been Klay without the defense and efficiency. Idk why you guys overrate these 90's players so much. I've heard people say that Dominique would be doing what Harden is doing, Jordan would average 50, Clyde would be modern day Lebron...etc

We have still to see what Klay can do without Curry.

Reggie was the only and main offensive weapon for Pacers for a decade. Klay has always been second banana.

[Bronbron23]

I figure it's no contest that Curry is the best 3pt shooter of all time. Not only the volume, but how he does it too. The quick catch and shoot, the way he take you off the ball, and where he shoots it at.

Reggie Miller would've possibly been better in this era than he was in the 90s, granted. But I don't think he's on Curry's lvl.

Theres no possibly. He definitely would be. He shot 4-5 threes a game and his team shot like 7 lol. In this era he'd be shooting double that.

[Bronbron23]

We have still to see what Klay can do without Curry.

Reggie was the only and main offensive weapon for Pacers for a decade. Klay has always been second banana.

We saw what klay can do without curry in the 16 playoffs. Warriors were cruising through the first 2 rounds so i think its safe to say he'd do just fine as the man in a good system

[3ball]

Pippen compliments Jordan much better than Nique would. Nique is an alpha scorer



You have this idea that it's easier for MJ to play with someone that scores LESS or low amounts.

doesn't that sound dumb?... why would he or the team be better off alongside someone that scores less? It's infact the opposite, and this is intuitive, kindergarten stuff.

However, you feel that MJ couldn't play with another big scorer because his game wasn't "suited" for it.. This is wrong on many levels.. firstly, MJ was on his own level as a scorer, so anyone else would invariably be the 2nd option, aka Jordan averaged 37.1 in 1987 and Dominique 30 (big gap)

Now you'll say that there aren't enough possessions, but again, you're wrong - everyone ELSE takes a small haircut, other than Dominique and Jordan (this is exactly what happened when MJ came back in 95' or 96'.. pippen basically maintained 90% of his scoring like Nique would, while bj, kukoc, harper took 1-2 pt cuts)... aka optimal equitable reduction.. aka goat IQ of how to play (on-ball/off-ball/elite shooting)

Peak Jordan would average 33 and Dominique 27... and they obviously win in 1989 in place of pippen's 10 on 40%.. guys like x-man or worthy (piston-killer) would also beat the pistons... ultimately, dominique WAS a pippen-type of spotty shooter and inefficiency on the offensive end.. but he would've provided MJ with rests on offense, which MJ never got with the non-pure scorer pippen

So that solves the long-standing mathematical deficit you had with the possessions and shot attempts

Now to the basketball... MJ averaged more APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside pippen, and assisted 33% more often than pippen (28 to 21 assist percentage, aka mj had more shot attempts so his available shots to assist on were less, yet equal assists to pippen).. so he could fit with whatever Nique wanted to do - I'm sure Niques's requirements < triangle, and I'm sure MJ had no problem being a more ball-dominant scorer to facilitate the flying dunks that you're envisioning for Nique ... But Nique was also a great post player and sometimes lengthy isolation player - long iso or post players with spotty shooting don't fit with lebron, aka Hughes, Ingram, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Wade, Rose, pippen, Crowder, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and and on

[Reggie43]

Jimmy Butler in this Finals run is playing better than most all time greats. That oldschool type of game and attitude is just great to watch.

[TheCorporation]

Jimmy Butler on the 1994 Bulls w/o Jordan = INSTANT CHIP

[KD7]

Yep

[FultzNationRISE]

Yes.

[SATAN]

More talented than MJ also.

[TheMan]

Crazy thing is.. he’s like the 10th or 11th most talented wing Bron has faced :oldlol:

Thankfully OP is banned but go ahead and name 10 wing players more talented than Butler

[TheMan]

More talented than MJ also.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLMjW2cbvDplq94NuRdb4nrEqfk1UD5 yQ-MQ&usqp=CAU

[And1AllDay]

issa wrap

butler > drexler, starks, ehlo, hornacek, ewing, dumars

[Full Court]

Crazy thing is.. he’s like the 10th or 11th most talented wing Bron has faced :oldlol:

I disagree with it. But for discussion's sake, let's say it's true...I guess you're admiting that the 2020 ring is a complete joke then, huh?

[CountDracula]

https://i.ibb.co/qr3Sx1t/AB4-C586-D-17-AC-4-D42-916-B-3-A0-C9490-C5-AF.jpg (https://ibb.co/G546FPK)

https://i.ibb.co/JkF58rN/980-D2356-A703-40-BC-A279-46508-F06-F3-AC.jpg (https://ibb.co/RH4ztQ1)

https://i.ibb.co/kQvMRyj/875-FB760-96-C0-412-F-B438-F7-DE384440-C0.jpg (https://ibb.co/4P3J6fz)

https://i.ibb.co/Pj9M0wd/7-E7-F802-D-C657-4-C29-9-AEC-72256-AA12-B32.jpg (https://ibb.co/dMLtxGR)

[SouBeachTalents]

Count Cringula with the same photoshops he’s posted literally hundreds of times.

[Axe]

Count Cringula with the same photoshops he’s posted literally hundreds of times.
He's probably eliteballer's alt/dup.