2020 Playoffs: AD led Lakers in scoring, efficiency, defense, PER, WS/48, clutch

[3ball]

Lebron was carried - he always SHARES the load with teammates (teammates average nearly as much in scoring, rebounds and other categories, aka SHARED load).. he never CARRIES the load in any category like MJ (10-30 more ppg than pippen in every series).. except for ball-domination

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll:

[AussieSteve]

:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/346/741/fde.jpg

[Trollsmasher]

PER was 30 vs 30.1 before today's game so that's probably not going to work out for you, kid

[1987_Lakers]

:roll:

[3ball]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/346/741/fde.jpg


career rankings

PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107


WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129

Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4 :biggums:
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250

Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250

True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35 :applause:
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:




When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

[LoneyROY7]

Wait, is that...

Yep, that's a one-star thread.

[RRR3]

Steaming

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:


Steaming

:roll:

[AussieSteve]

same with 'clutch'... check the 4th qtr scoring stats LBJ >>> AD

[Wally450]

Op please be safe tonight. :roll:

[Axe]

PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107


WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129

Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4 :biggums:
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250

Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250

True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35 :applause:
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:




When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fl4Ki2ob CyAQS5WhFe%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG
Holy

Copypasta

Crap

[Roundball_Rock]

Op please be safe tonight. :roll:

If we don't see him ever post again after tonight we will at least know why...

1-9ball, don't do it. LeBron's greatness isn't a reason to end it all.

[3ball]

Holy

Copypasta

Crap

Pippen never got within 10 pts of MJ, let alone leading scoring, rebounds, defense, clutch, and PER

Lebron is a carried fraud

[Bronbron23]

I get at bron stans sometimes but i disagree. bron is fmvp and its not close. He's still the best player in the world.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Broiling

[RRR3]

I’m almost positive LeBron has a higher playoffs PER than AD after tonight. He also had better BPM and VORP. OP isn’t even telling the truth.

[3ball]

I get at bron stans sometimes but i disagree. bron is fmvp and its not close. He's still the best player in the world.

But compared to MJ, Lebron was carried

Pippen never contributed anywhere near the level of AD - pippen was never closer than 10 points of MJ in any series, let alone LEADING every category

[Sportal]

3ball: We will see what LeBron can finally do in the 90s structure of 2 stars per basketball team JUST LIKE MY FAVOURITE JORDAN.

also 3ball: No that's just not fair...

[3ball]

I’m almost positive LeBron has a higher playoffs PER than AD after tonight. He also had better BPM and VORP. OP isn’t even telling the truth.

The point is that Lebron was carried compared to mj

Pippen never contributed anywhere near the level of AD - pippen was never closer than 10 points of MJ in any series, let alone LEADING every category including clutch

So it's ridiculous to compare Lebron to mj

[3ball]

3ball: We will see what LeBron can finally do in the 90s structure of 2 stars per basketball team JUST LIKE MY FAVOURITE JORDAN.

also 3ball: No that's just not fair...

But compared to MJ, Lebron was carried

Pippen never contributed anywhere near the level of AD - pippen was never closer than 10 points of MJ in any series, let alone LEADING every category

And obviously, pippen's stats were far below Kyrie, and comparable to old wade

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen never got within 10 pts of MJ, let alone leading scoring, rebounds, defense, clutch, and PER

Lebron is a carried fraud

Pippen has more playoff points than Wilt Chamberlain.

1-9

[Bronbron23]

But compared to MJ, Lebron was carried

Pippen never contributed anywhere near the level of AD - pippen was never closer than 10 points of MJ in any series, let alone LEADING every category

Maybe not offensively but pip contributed on the other for sure. He was just a perfect compliment to mj and that bulls team just like ad is to bron. Neither were carried.

[AussieSteve]

But compared to MJ, Lebron was carried

Pippen never contributed anywhere near the level of AD - pippen was never closer than 10 points of MJ in any series, let alone LEADING every category

And obviously, pippen's stats were far below Kyrie, and comparable to old wade

how was he rest of LeBron's cast vs the rest of MJ's?

[TheGoatest]

https://images2.imagebam.com/52/db/f0/5dced01356201872.png

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball: We will see what LeBron can finally do in the 90s structure of 2 stars per basketball team JUST LIKE MY FAVOURITE JORDAN.

also 3ball: No that's just not fair...

:lol

1-9ball is bitter LeBron has won with 3 franchises, 5 coaches, 4-5 GM's, with Wade, with Irving, with AD. MJ won only with 1 franchise, 1 coach, 1 GM, and Pippen.


I’m almost positive LeBron has a higher playoffs PER than AD after tonight. He also had better BPM and VORP. OP isn’t even telling the truth.

MJ fans are a group are dishonest (bad look for MJ these are the type of fans he attracts) but 1-9ball is by far worse than the pack.

[AirBonner]

Holy meltdown!

[1987_Lakers]

I’m almost positive LeBron has a higher playoffs PER than AD after tonight. He also had better BPM and VORP. OP isn’t even telling the truth.

OP is pathetic.

[NBAGOAT]

Lebrons also got an obvious idea edge in pipm for the playoffs

[SouBeachTalents]

2nd in MVP voting
30/12/9 in the Finals
FMVP

carried

[3ball]

2nd in MVP voting
30/12/9 in the Finals
FMVP

carried

lebron SHARED the load - AD nearly matched Lebron in everything - that's the definition of SHARED (tiny margins)

Otoh, Jordan carried the scoring load and then shared the other categories like Lebron

[Gus Hemmingway]

Jordan LOST with an all star teammate in 1990 and 1995!

Woo :hammertime:


LeBron won without any all stars in 2016

And LeBron won with just one all star in 2020

[1987_Lakers]

lebron SHARED the load - AD nearly matched Lebron in everything - that's the definition of SHARED (tiny margins)

Otoh, Jordan carried the scoring load and then shared the other categories like Lebron

1-9. No Pip, no chip.

[Gus Hemmingway]

lebron SHARED the load - AD nearly matched Lebron in everything - that's the definition of SHARED (tiny margins)

Otoh, Jordan carried the scoring load and then shared the other categories like Lebron

Winning without an all-star teammate (2016) > losing with an all star (1990 and 1995)

Winning with just one all star (2020) > losing with an allstar (1990 and 1995)

Finals with 12 rebounds and 10 assists > Finals with 4 rebounds and 2 assists

Making the Finals with Eric Snow >> losing in the 1st round with Oakely and George Gervin

[Roundball_Rock]

OP is pathetic.

Yup.


2nd in MVP voting
30/12/9 in the Finals
FMVP

carried

Carried:

https://imageproxy.themaven.net/https%3A%2F%2Fimages.saymedia-content.com%2F.image%2FMTc1NTAxMDIyNjM3MDczNTI3%2F mvpvotes0918.png?w=1240&q=20&h=711&auto=format&fit=crop&crop=focalpoint&fp-x=0.5&fp-y=0.5&fp-z=1&fp-debug=false



1-9. No Pip, no chip.

It is interesting he hypes AD when Pippen came closer in MVP voting to MJ than AD did to LeBron. In 96' Pippen was 5th, with 11 second place votes and 18 third place votes (MJ nearly swept the first place votes). AD was sixth with 0 second place votes and 5 third place votes. Moreover, in 92' Pippen got a first place vote, unlike AD (and unlike Ewing or Barkley that season).

[sdot_thadon]

Poor 3ball, it's going to be ok my man. You fought a noble fight but its time to lay down your shield. You're surrounded. Its over.

[3ball]

Poor 3ball, it's going to be ok my man. You fought a noble fight but its time to lay down your shield. You're surrounded. Its over.

Lebron never won a ring without 2 star teammates or a top 5 player sidekick.. and therefore sucks... compared to MJ

MJ won with his sidekick playing like Paul George

carry on

[Shooter]

https://images2.imagebam.com/52/db/f0/5dced01356201872.png

:roll:

GOLD

[3ball]

Yup.



Carried:

https://imageproxy.themaven.net/https%3A%2F%2Fimages.saymedia-content.com%2F.image%2FMTc1NTAxMDIyNjM3MDczNTI3%2F mvpvotes0918.png?w=1240&q=20&h=711&auto=format&fit=crop&crop=focalpoint&fp-x=0.5&fp-y=0.5&fp-z=1&fp-debug=false




It is interesting he hypes AD when Pippen came closer in MVP voting to MJ than AD did to LeBron. In 96' Pippen was 5th, with 11 second place votes and 18 third place votes (MJ nearly swept the first place votes). AD was sixth with 0 second place votes and 5 third place votes. Moreover, in 92' Pippen got a first place vote, unlike AD (and unlike Ewing or Barkley that season).

Shows how undeserving pippen was but his association with MJ and winning got him fake accolades

MJ elevated pippen, aka he wasn't that good

Lebron never won any Finals with guys playing like paul George, I mean pippen (19 on 42% in 6 Finals).. only MJ did that

[8Ball]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NippyWearyHornbill-max-1mb.gif

[Meticode]

OP is fuming. Sit back and just watch the meltdown.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron never won a ring without 2 star teammates or a top 5 player sidekick.. and therefore sucks... compared to MJ

MJ won with his sidekick playing like Paul George

carry on

https://media.tenor.com/images/4293d05fd274ed754a8bb6d15e62a6b2/tenor.gif

[Shooter]

https://media.giphy.com/media/kEhLoCOT3PiWlfp0Ms/giphy.gif

#2 for MJ aint bad. He is top 5 now, no shame in that :cheers:

[Sportal]

Shows how undeserving pippen was but his association with MJ and winning got him fake accolades

MJ elevated pippen, aka he wasn't that good

Lebron never won any Finals with guys playing like paul George, I mean pippen (19 on 42% in 6 Finals).. only MJ did that

MJ elevated Pippen? How did Pippen do the season MJ left?

[Gus Hemmingway]

Winning without an all-star teammate (2016) > losing with an all star (1990 and 1995)

Winning with just one all star (2020) > losing with an allstar (1990 and 1995)

Finals with 12 rebounds and 10 assists > Finals with 4 rebounds and 2 assists

Making the Finals with Eric Snow >> losing in the 1st round with Oakely and George Gervin

3ball??

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ elevated Pippen? How did Pippen do the season MJ left?

Also, what about the converse? What did MJ do without Pippen?

LeBron without Wade: 2x MVP, 2x champ, 6 finals, 7 conference finals

Jordan without Pippen=...?

[Sportal]

Aw :( he's gone...

[3ball]

Also, what about the converse? What did MJ do without Pippen?

LeBron without Wade: 2x MVP, 2x champ, 6 finals, 7 conference finals

Jordan without Pippen=...?

Everyone knows he teamed up with Kyrie after Wade, who saved him in the 16' Finals

Everyone knows he needed 2 stars (2 pippens) or a top 5 player-sidekick to win

So your arguments are kindergarten level and dumb as shit

[Shooter]

https://clutchpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/LeBron-James-9.jpg

[3ball]

https://clutchpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/LeBron-James-9.jpg

The goat doesn't need a top 5 player as sidekick, or 2 star teammates to win

So Lebron isn't goat

6/15 > 4/17

5 MVP in 15 years > 4 in 17

9 seasons of both 1st team all-nba and all-defense > 5

9 seasons of scoring champ and 1st team defense > 0

It's not even close

[Roundball_Rock]

Also, what about the converse? What did MJ do without Pippen?

LeBron without Wade: 2x MVP, 2x champ, 6 finals, 7 conference finals

Jordan without Pippen=...?

Forgot all-NBA.

All-NBA 1st teams: LeBron 9x without Wade

The corresponding number for MJ without Pippen is...?

[red1]

you lose 3ball :)



leGOAT wins :)

[3ball]

you lose 3ball :)



leGOAT wins :)

Lebron had a teammate match or exceed him statistically, so he's nowhere near MJ, who has 6 carry-job rings

Lebron was out-produced by teammates in 11' and 20' playoffs, while Kyrie matched his scoring in 2016 playoffs

So it's nowhere near Jordan

[ELITEpower23]

3ball.

It's over now.

[kawhileonard2]

On the Season AD was better stats wise and analytics but for the playoffs they were virtually the same.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron had a teammate match or exceed him statistically, so he's nowhere near MJ, who has 6 carry-job rings

Lebron was out-produced by teammates in 11' and 20' playoffs, while Kyrie matched his scoring in 2016 playoffs

So it's nowhere near Jordan

Delusional. :roll:

[Koresh]

Everyone knows he teamed up with Kyrie after Wade, who saved him in the 16' Finals

Everyone knows he needed 2 stars (2 pippens) or a top 5 player-sidekick to win

So your arguments are kindergarten level and dumb as shit

It's okay for Jordan to pass to Kerr and Paxson to "bail him out" for wins.

Shut the **** up, you ****ing loser. The NBA was here before Jordan and will be after Jordan.

No one cares. Stop jacking off to a man who doesn't know you exist and will never know you exist.

If Jordan is the GOAT, why the **** are you defending him for? GET SOME HELP.

[RRR3]

LeBron actually led in PER 30.2 to 29.6. Whoops.

And AD scored an incredible TWO TOTAL points more than LeBron, and that was because he played more minutes. Per 36 minutes LeBron outscored him 27.4 to 27.2.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron also led the finals this year in 4th quarter scoring by a LARGE amount and shot like 50% in the 4th. Dude was amazing from beginning to the end in these finals.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Shows how undeserving pippen was but his association with MJ and winning got him fake accolades

MJ elevated pippen, aka he wasn't that good

Lebron never won any Finals with guys playing like paul George, I mean pippen (19 on 42% in 6 Finals).. only MJ did that

To your point - look when AD got into foul trouble and didn't play well (Game 3) - Lakers lost handily. 1998 Finals game 6 - Pippen is out, Jordan drops 45 with the clutch walk off game winner. (Lebron is 0-7 in game tying or go ahead shots in the finals).

[3ball]

Lebron also led the finals this year in 4th quarter scoring by a LARGE amount and shot like 50% in the 4th. Dude was amazing from beginning to the end in these finals.

Standard things for Jordan

97' and 98' Jordan led the league in clutch stats in for regular season, playoffs and Finals - lebron doesn't lead most years..

There's no area that he matches Jordan - lower production rate/stats, less winning, less clutch, less accolades, more help

[1987_Lakers]

2020 playoffs

LeBron: 30.2 PER
AD: 29.6 PER

[And1AllDay]

2020 playoffs

LeBron: 30.2 PER
AD: 29.6 PER

we

win

again

:hammertime:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

2020 playoffs

LeBron: 30.2 PER
AD: 29.6 PER

Wow. Then you have multiple former champs coming off the bench (Rondo, Javele) coupled with Howard (DPOY, muliple all-star). Is this really that big of an achievement to beat #5 Heat minus their #1 scorer? A team without any superstars?

[RRR3]

2020 playoffs

LeBron: 30.2 PER
AD: 29.6 PER
AD only outscored Bron cuz Bron played less minutes too. Per minute Bron slightly outscored him.

[3ball]

AD only outscored Bron cuz Bron played less minutes too. Per minute Bron slightly outscored him.

So lebron had equal PER, aka shared load

Whereas MJ always destroyed pippen in PER

For example, pippen had a 16.9 PER in the 93' Playoffs (14' Wade had 18.6 PER while pursuing his 3-peat, aka much higher)

[RRR3]

Wow. Then you have multiple former champs coming off the bench (Rondo, Javele) coupled with Howard (DPOY, muliple all-star). Is this really that big of an achievement to beat #5 Heat minus their #1 scorer? A team without any superstars?
https://i.imgflip.com/35hp79.jpg

[RRR3]

So lebron had equal PER, aka shared load

Whereas MJ always destroyed pippen in PER

For example, pippen had a 16.9 PER in the 93' Playoffs (14' Wade had 18.6 PER while pursuing his 3-peat, aka much higher)
I mean fine you can def say LeBron and AD co playoff MVPS (Bron was clearly better tho IMO) but Bron also beat a 73 win with basically Kyrie Irving and role players (Love was injured and ineffective in that series).

[Indian guy]

AD only outscored Bron cuz Bron played less minutes too. Per minute Bron slightly outscored him.

AD "outscored" LeBron my a mere 2 points (582 to 580).

[3ball]

I mean fine you can def say LeBron and AD co playoff MVPS (Bron was clearly better tho IMO) but Bron also beat a 73 win with basically Kyrie Irving and role players (Love was injured and ineffective in that series).

If rik smits outplayed shaq in the 00' Finals, would we say Miller had a goat accomplishment by winning that series?.. or if kenyon outplayed duncan in 03', would Kidd have a goat accomplishment? So why should lebron get credit?.. You can do this for any Finals...

Kyrie outplayed Curry, so lebron should get knocked for needing 7 games.. he only needed 7 games because he wet the bed for the first 4 (24 and 6 TO's).. similarly, he averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games of the 13' Finals, and therefore needed Ray Allen to force game 7

[RRR3]

AD "outscored" LeBron my a mere 2 points (582 to 580).
Yeah ik but my point was that was only because he played more minutes. LeBron was scoring at a higher rate. AD scored at a higher rate during the regular season though. Interestingly, Kyrie actually scored at a higher rate per minute than Bron in the 16 playoffs.

[3ball]

Yeah ik but my point was that was only because he played more minutes. LeBron was scoring at a higher rate. AD scored at a higher rate during the regular season though. Interestingly, Kyrie actually scored at a higher rate per minute than Bron in the 16 playoffs.
The scoring margin was close for Lebron/AD (shared load), and all the other categories too

Otoh, Jordan carried the scoring load and shared the secondary categories like lebron

if butler won these Finals - MJ has 6 like that (10-20 more than 2nd option, aka carry-job.. 6 carry-job rings)

[Real14]

This is definitely no surprise

[Charlie Sheen]

Lebron was carried

This was all I needed to read. You didn't watch any of these playoffs if that's your opinion.

[Real14]

This was all I needed to read. You didn't watch any of these playoffs if that's your opinion.

Rondo carried too