LeBron at 35 in the Finals: 30/12/9, 56 fg% . MJ at 35 in the Finals: 33/4/2, 43 fg%

[1987_Lakers]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcclaimedGroundedAmericancrocodile-size_restricted.gif

[AlternativeAcc.]

17 seasons

Most playoff games ever


No breaks






































https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcclaimedGroundedAmericancrocodile-size_restricted.gif

[J Shuttlesworth]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/21GCypPo6I656FEB1M/giphy.gif

[Trollsmasher]

LeBron - still the best peak ever

MJ - Andrew Wiggins on a hot streak

[AirBonner]

So 3ball can’t use age on this one. Stay tuned for the spin

[Bronbron23]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcclaimedGroundedAmericancrocodile-size_restricted.gif

You can pretty much throw the stats out the window at this point. 20 point border line all stars were putting up atg numbers.

He was great though

[Manny98]

LeBron did it against a better defensive team as well

[JebronLames]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcclaimedGroundedAmericancrocodile-size_restricted.gif

i got 59% FG

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Interesting. How many points did the #2 option for that Bulls team average?

[AirBonner]

You can pretty much throw the stats out the window at this point. 20 point border line all stars were putting up atg numbers.

He was great though

So he made his teammates better than MJ could

[FireDavidKahn]

17 seasons

Most playoff games ever


No breaks






































https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcclaimedGroundedAmericancrocodile-size_restricted.gif

Not 17.

He's also played more then 3+ seasons in the play offs.

All together HE's played 20 seasons

[Roundball_Rock]

2 assists. :lol

[Trollsmasher]

2 assists. :lol

but why didnt pippen average more points!!!??

[AussieSteve]

Interesting. How many points did the #2 option for that Bulls team average?

Not that many, because MJ jacked up 27 shots per game and only handed out 2 assists. Huge usage not not setting up his team mates to score.

Lebron put up just the 19 shots and handed out 9 assists. allowing and creating far more opportunities for his team mates

[Mr. Jabbar]

Savage.

[G0ATbe]

He actually shot 59% OP:bowdown:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Not that many, because MJ jacked up 27 shots per game and only handed out 2 assists. Huge usage not not setting up his team mates to score.

Lebron put up just the 19 shots and handed out 9 assists. allowing and creating far more opportunities for his team mates

Were you alive during game 6 of the 98 Finals? Pippen barely played. Mike won that game damn near single-handedly.

[LoneyROY7]

He did it.

Again.

[TheGoatest]

LeBron clearly had the better finals, playoffs, as well as the regular season.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Not 17.

He's also played more then 3+ seasons in the play offs.

All together HE's played 20 seasons

It's true

20 full seasons


5 more full seasons than MJ, still MUCH better at age 35... Unreal

[Roundball_Rock]

but why didnt pippen average more points!!!??

:lol

They also, being MJ stains, always ignore that Pippen got hurt late in the series and Kukoc was the #2 option in Game 5 and 6.


Interesting. How many points did the #2 option for that Bulls team average?

The Jazz's #2 option average 9.7 PPG. :roll:

[red1]

what a GOAT

[Vragrant]

MJ pushed to 6 games by a top 2PF all time (Malone)and top 3 PG(Stockton). Lebron pushed to 6 by 5th seed from the East with 2 starters injured.

[Manny98]

2 assists. :lol
Pathetic :lol #notmygoat

[Shooter]

LeBron did it against a better defensive team as well

Hol up, you mean to tell me Hornacek and Byron Russell wasn't better than Butler, Crowder, Iggy, Bam? :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ pushed to 6 games by a top 2PF all time (Malone)and top 3 PG(Stockton). Lebron pushed to 6 by 5th seed from the East with 2 starters injured.

Yeah, Stockton's 9. 7 PPG was top 3 PG all-time level play. :lol

[Shooter]

He actually shot 59% OP:bowdown:

+1 that he did my good sir, that he did

[StrongLurk]

Le...GOAT

[TheGoatest]

2 assists. :lol

This is truly pathetic. If a star center averages 2.3 assists over a season, he would be called out for not averaging more assists.

[1987_Lakers]

MJ pushed to 6 games by a top 2PF all time (Malone)and top 3 PG(Stockton). Lebron pushed to 6 by 5th seed from the East with 2 starters injured.

Malone was a choke artist and Stockton was pretty much Rondo level at that point.

Malone wishes he had the dog in him like Jimmy Butler does.

[Bronbron23]

So he made his teammates better than MJ could

All i heard from bron stans was how bad bron teammates were so not sure about that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Malone was a choke artist and Stockton was pretty much Rondo level at that point.

Malone wishes he had the dog in him like Jimmy Butler does.

I love how they hype Malone when Pippen, who they say was trash, was ahead of Malone in all-NBA voting twice in Malone's prime and nearly so a third time. :lol

[Shooter]

Le...GOAT

:lebronamazed: Have you finally seen the way?

[1987_Lakers]

All i heard from bron stans was how bad bron teammates were so not sure about that.

LeBron carried 2 scrub supporting casts in 2007 & 2018 to the Finals, we all know what happens when you give MJ scrubs.

[StrongLurk]

:lebronamazed: Have you finally seen the way?

Lebron has been my favorite athlete since I've seen his whole career unfold...I've ALWAYS been a fan. MJ was like a god to me when I was a kid, but I only was able to watch his last three finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

we all know what happens when you give MJ scrubs.

:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Different circumstances ie. Miami's 109 DRTG compared to Utah's 105. Tougher defense overall in 98, Jordan carrying his #2 in scoring unlike Bron did with AD. Or the fact, Malone andStockton were a legendary duo compared to Butler and....yeah exactly.

I get it though. Fans are celebrating and going to say stupid shit. I'll say this though. If Bron plays at a level similar to this run, or just at superstar level, at 36, and while winning #5? He's getting serious GOAT talks. If that were to happen, I'd rate him and Jordan 1a/b in-terms of career.

[Kingwillball]

4 finals MVPs leading in points assists and rebounds very impressive.

[StrongLurk]

Different circumstances ie. Miami's 109 DRTG compared to Utah's 105. Tougher defense overall in 98, Jordan carrying his #2 in scoring unlike Bron did with AD. Or the fact, Malone andStockton were a legendary duo compared to Butler and....yeah exactly.

I get it though. Fans are celebrating and going to say stupid shit. I'll say this though. If Bron plays @ level similar to this run, or just at superstar level, at 36, and while winning #5? He's getting serious GOAT talks. If that were to happen, I'd rate him and Jordan 1a/b in-terms of career.

Bron's 2011 finals will ALWAYS haunt him. Imagine if he won that...he'd have a three peat and 5 rings at this stage.

[NBAGOAT]

pace is a big factor but i got no problem taking bron. jordan's volume scoring doesnt make up for the efficiency(era adjusted) and the playmaking difference. this isnt the cle years, bron's defense was pretty good in the finals

[Bronbron23]

LeBron carried 2 scrub supporting casts in 2007 & 2018 to the Finals, we all know what happens when you give MJ scrubs.

Who did lebron play against again in those playoffs?

[Nash]

There are levels to this shit. Gtfoh with this Jordan BS. There is only one GOAT and he was born in Akron, Ohio, 1984.

[3ball]

Different circumstances ie. Miami's 109 DRTG compared to Utah's 105. Tougher defense overall in 98, Jordan carrying his #2 in scoring unlike Bron did with AD. Or the fact, Malone andStockton were a legendary duo compared to Butler and....yeah exactly.

I get it though. Fans are celebrating and going to say stupid shit. I'll say this though. If Bron plays at a level similar to this run, or just at superstar level, at 36, and while winning #5? He's getting serious GOAT talks. If that were to happen, I'd rate him and Jordan 1a/b in-terms of career.

1a/1b = 1 and 2.

No need to use the beta, passive-aggressive 1a/1b.. b = 2, so just say 2

And 5 rings wouldn't make him goat anymore than 4 doesn't.. he shares the load with teammates (teammates average nearly as much in each stat category), whereas MJ carried the scoring load and shared the secondary categories like Bron does

Jordan's peak and production rate will always be better, while lebron's longevity resulted from rules (being allowed to go from McDonald's all-american to NBA)

[RRR3]

1a/1b = 1 and 2.

No need to use the beta, passive-aggressive 1a/1b.. b = 2, so just say 2

And 5 rings wouldn't make him goat anymore than 4 doesn't.. he shares the load with teammates (teammates average nearly as much in each stat category), whereas MJ carried the scoring load and shared the secondary categories like Bron does

Jordan's peak and production rate will always be better, while lebron's longevity resulted from rules (being allowed to go from McDonald's all-american to NBA)
Considering LeBron runs the offense, you should be aware that he’s fully capable of making sure that he scores more than Davis. He’s not selfish or insecure enough to do that, though. But if he was, apparently that would make him better in your delusional mind.

[3ball]

Considering LeBron runs the offense, you should be aware that he’s fully capable of making sure that he scores more than Davis. He’s not selfish or insecure enough to do that, though. But if he was, apparently that would make him better in your delusional mind.

Jordan doubled pippen's scoring average while assisting 30% more often than Pippen

Lebron has never carried the load like that

[3ball]

.

Career Finals averages alongside Lebron or Jordan

Wade..... 20/5/4 on 48%

Kyrie...... 28/4/4 on 46%

Davis.... 25/11/3 on 57%

Pippen... 19/7/5 on 42%


And HOF 3rd options Love, Bosh, and Rondo destroy Horace and Kukoc

Ultimately, Lebron averaged 2 to 5 points more than teammates when he won Finals (shared load), while MJ averaged 10-20 more than his sidekick (carry-job)

[RRR3]

“HOF 3rd option Rondo”




Permaban time.

[Nash]

Nothing about MJ is better than Lebron at basketball. The only thing left is narratives and old people.

[DMAVS41]

.

Career Finals averages alongside Lebron or Jordan

Wade..... 20/5/4 on 48%

Kyrie...... 28/4/4 on 46%

Davis.... 25/11/3 on 57%

Pippen... 19/7/5 on 42%


And HOF 3rd options Love, Bosh, and Rondo destroy Horace and Kukoc

Ultimately, Lebron averaged 2 to 5 points more than teammates when he won Finals (shared load), while MJ averaged 10-20 more than his sidekick (carry-job)

Maybe Jordan should have passed more?

[Trollsmasher]

.

Career Finals averages alongside Lebron or Jordan

Wade..... 20/5/4 on 48%

Kyrie...... 28/4/4 on 46%

Davis.... 25/11/3 on 57%

Pippen... 19/7/5 on 42%


And HOF 3rd options Love, Bosh, and Rondo destroy Horace and Kukoc

Ultimately, Lebron averaged 2 to 5 points more than teammates when he won Finals (shared load), while MJ averaged 10-20 more than his sidekick (carry-job)

this once again a function of MJ chucking up an inefficient number of shots and not providing quality looks for his teammates

[3ball]

this once again a function of MJ chucking up an inefficient number of shots and not providing quality looks for his teammates

Unlike Lebron's sidekicks who had great efficiency (and therefore had capacity to shoot more), pippen's efficiency was horrible and therefore couldn't shoot more to benefit the team (shooting more at 41% hurts the team)

Carry on

You want pippen shooting more while he's getting 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals, or 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs? gtfo

[8Ball]

Pippen is trying to set up the offence and be the floor general.

Pippen would have been more efficient under LeBron Ball than he ultimately was under Jordan ball. Jordan-Ball made every single player next to Jordan sacrifice their offensive game. A true tragedy.


AD's efficiency in the playoffs with LeBron > Without LeBron.

[ArbitraryWater]

Levels to this ish


Beating up on Butler/Crowder

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

1a/1b = 1 and 2.

No need to use the beta, passive-aggressive 1a/1b.. b = 2, so just say 2

And 5 rings wouldn't make him goat anymore than 4 doesn't.. he shares the load with teammates (teammates average nearly as much in each stat category), whereas MJ carried the scoring load and shared the secondary categories like Bron does

Jordan's peak and production rate will always be better, while lebron's longevity resulted from rules (being allowed to go from McDonald's all-american to NBA)

You're literally on an alt talking about passive aggressive betas. Thanks for the comedy, geek.

1a/b are equals. What that means is you could rank Lebron best for his longevity or Mike best for his peak and per stats. Bron playing at a superstar level matters though. So if that trend continues dont run from it, and change the topic because it makes you uncomfortable. Wins/stats/longevity have been a mainstay in legacy talk forever. And with #5 Lebron would have it all basically.

[Young X]

The circumstances are completely different. The Jazz were an elite team and actually had homecourt over the Bulls. The 1998 Finals was also a defensive slugfest where both teams struggled to score and was extremely slow paced. MJ also did not have someone like Anthony Davis to take pressure off of him, he was the entire Chicago offense.

[Manny98]

4 rebounds, 2 assists and 43% from the field?

Imagine LeBron winning finals MVP with such pathetic numbers

https://i.postimg.cc/MZb6Ssyg/tenor-22.gif

[Manny98]

The circumstances are completely different. The Jazz were an elite team and actually had homecourt over the Bulls. The 1998 Finals was also a defensive slugfest where both teams struggled to score and was extremely slow paced. MJ also did not have someone like Anthony Davis to take pressure off of him, he was the entire Chicago offense.
Some defensive slugfest going up against the Mighty Jeff Hornacek and John Stockton :lol

[Young X]

Some defensive slugfest going up against the Mighty Jeff Hornacek and John Stockton :lol
The Final score of game 6 was 87-86. Game 5 was 83-81. Game 4 was 82-86. You get the point.

[999Guy]

The circumstances are completely different. The Jazz were an elite team and actually had homecourt over the Bulls. The 1998 Finals was also a defensive slugfest where both teams struggled to score and was extremely slow paced. MJ also did not have someone like Anthony Davis to take pressure off of him, he was the entire Chicago offense.

The slow paced, grind it out late 90’s Jazz? Really?

Utah was an offensive team.

Jordan was fried by 98 and couldn’t create even close to how he used to. When he was 28 he would’ve destroyed that team.

Chicago was the defensive team. Their offense just sucked because they got bad performances, Jordan included. Jordan wasn’t even better than Shaq in 98. He got a 2010 Kobe ring with an established, deep veteran team over another old-ass team like 2010 Celtics while the youth of the NBA were in bad spots or not developed yet.

It was his last title, and even his last attempt for a reason. They were done and they knew it.

[dankok8]

Stats aren't everything. I wouldn't say Lebron had a better finals this year than Jordan in 1998.

[Lebron23]

Stats aren't everything. I wouldn't say Lebron had a better finals this year than Jordan in 1998.

Keep hating. And stop crying.

[Young X]

The slow paced, grind it out late 90’s Jazz? Really?

Utah was an offensive team.

Jordan was fried by 98 and couldn’t create even close to how he used to. When he was 28 he would’ve destroyed that team.

Chicago was the defensive team. Their offense just sucked because they got bad performances, Jordan included. Jordan wasn’t even better than Shaq in 98. He got a 2010 Kobe ring with an established, deep veteran team over another old-ass team like 2010 Celtics while the youth of the NBA were in bad spots or not developed yet.

It was his last title, and even his last attempt for a reason. They were done and they knew it.
How can you say so many wrong things in one post.

First of all, I said the SERIES was a defensive slugfest which it was. It wasn't easy to score, every possession mattered.

Then you say he was fried. He literally won MVP that year and the scoring title and made the All-Defensive 1st team all in one season and he was "fried". Nonsense.

[dankok8]

Keep hating. And stop crying.

I don't hate Lebron. I've been a fan of Lebron since he got drafted. But this is his worst performance of the four finals that he won. He statpadded in a few games and was nothing special on defense. There is a solid case to be made that Jordan had a better finals in 1998.

[JimiKage]

I don't hate Lebron. I've been a fan of Lebron since he got drafted. But this is his worst performance of the four finals that he won. He statpadded in a few games and was nothing special on defense. There is a solid case to be made that Jordan had a better finals in 1998.
4 rebounds and 2 assists vs 12 rebounds and 9 assists

One was being guarded by Jimmy Butler & Andre Igoudala, the other was being guarded by Jeff Hornacek

It's pretty obvious who had the better finals :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

I don't hate Lebron. I've been a fan of Lebron since he got drafted. But this is his worst performance of the four finals that he won. He statpadded in a few games and was nothing special on defense. There is a solid case to be made that Jordan had a better finals in 1998.

Nope. 2020 lakers would eviscerate the 1998 bulls and 1998 jazz.

[HoopsNY]

What kind of thread is this? It's completely devoid of any contextual analysis. The comparison isn't fair, especially when other players put up similar numbers to LeBron in the same finals.

This whole method of comparing statistics is dumb. Just look at how triple doubles have ballooned in the league compared to 2009. Many players now are putting up near triple double numbers; it's not something exclusive to LeBron or any other player.

[Micku]

What kind of thread is this? It's completely devoid of any contextual analysis. The comparison isn't fair, especially when other players put up similar numbers to LeBron in the same finals.

This whole method of comparing statistics is dumb. Just look at how triple doubles have ballooned in the league compared to 2009. Many players now are putting up near triple double numbers; it's not something exclusive to LeBron or any other player.

Yeah. Imo I think it's disingenuous to compare the stats nowadays compared to the 90s and early 00s. It was harder to score for the perimeter guys. We see the floor open up for guys like crazy for the perimeter players now. People are still going to do it and act like the game is still played the same back then as it is today, and ignore the context. You can argue that the offensive capability for perimeter players were more talented in other eras, which I think so too. But it doesn't change the fact that it was in general harder to score.

With that said, LeBron is still amazing. I think he is an athletic freak of nature. He doesn't have the skill of a Kobe/MJ in the variety of ways to create his own shot, but he is unstoppable when driving. The combination of speed and power is unreal.

[8Ball]

I don't hate Lebron. I've been a fan of Lebron since he got drafted. But this is his worst performance of the four finals that he won. He statpadded in a few games and was nothing special on defense. There is a solid case to be made that Jordan had a better finals in 1998.

Jordan has 3.5 assists per game in 1998 playoffs, worst than Kyrie Irving.

And 2 assists per game in the 98 finals. God awful floor general.

[tontoz]

Very impressive display from LeBron at that age, especially.given all the mileage on his body. He is a big guy so he takes a pounding running the court moreso than skinny guards.

I used to play pickup games regularly at that age. I was in good shape but two times a week was my max. Trying to play a NBA schedule with big minutes at that age is really hard.

Props to the Lakers. They were the 1 seed and earned home court advantage but won without it.

[3ball]

Jordan has 3.5 assists per game in 1998 playoffs, worst than Kyrie Irving.

And 2 assists per game in the 98 finals. God awful floor general.

The 98' Playoffs had MJ with the most clutch points ever and the biggest scoring burden ever

But in the 97' Playoffs, MJ led the Bulls in all 5 categories... (edit: he tied for the lead in bpg and rpg.. MJ averaged 8.0 rpg and rodman 8.3).

Overall, MJ led in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside pippen and assisted 33% more often.. you're forgetting that MJ had higher volume and can't assist on those shots, so his assist percentage was 33% higher (28 to 21)

So MJ was the passing leader of the bulls - he assisted 33% more often, while doubling pippen's scoring, aka goat load

[Shakerz]

Assists per game:
- Jordan's best season was at 8 APG
- LeBron has 5 seasons above that, peaking at 10.2

Assists total:
- Jordan 5633
- LeBron 9346

LeBron is about to double MJ in assists in the regular season only.

Rebounds per game:
- Jordan's best season was at 8 RPG
- LeBron has 3 seasons above that and one equal.

Total rebounds:
- Jordan 6672
- LeBron 9405

There is almost a 3000 difference rebound wise.

Point total:
- Jordan 32292
- LeBron 32241

Seasons above 60ts%
Jordan 4
LeBron 6

Best ts%
Jordan 61.4
LeBron 64

WS
Jordan 214
LeBron 236.4

This is only in the regular season. But let's see how they perform in the post season.

Runs above 30 PER
Jordan 4
LeBron 7

Times they lead both teams in GmSC in the finals:
Jordan 5
LeBron 6

So LeBron was actually the best player on the court in the finals more times than Michael Jordan.

Total points
Jordan 5987
LeBron 7491

Total rebounds
Jordan 1152
LeBron 2348

Total assists
Jordan 1022
LeBron 1871

Runs above 60ts%
Jordan 1
LeBron 6

LeBron is much more efficient with his scoring. Therefore is the advantage on PPG so important since LeBron outrebounds MJ and outassists him largely?

Peak ts%
MJ 60.2
LeBron 66.8

[K Xerxes]

Both impressive performances in entirely different contexts. Befitting of the two greatest players ever.

It is clear that LeBron has mastered the game. He controls games effortlessly and understands when he needs to score or facilitate, take over or step back. AD's inside presence and perimeter game complements him perfectly.

Jordan had the higher peak ability but LeBron will blow open all the longevity stats. I would still prefer the higher peak though.

[3ball]

Assists per game:
- Jordan's best season was at 8 APG
- LeBron has 5 seasons above that, peaking at 10.2

Assists total:
- Jordan 5633
- LeBron 9346

LeBron is about to double MJ in assists in the regular season only.

Rebounds per game:
- Jordan's best season was at 8 RPG
- LeBron has 3 seasons above that and one equal.

Total rebounds:
- Jordan 6672
- LeBron 9405

There is almost a 3000 difference rebound wise.

Point total:
- Jordan 32292
- LeBron 32241

Seasons above 60ts%
Jordan 4
LeBron 6

Best ts%
Jordan 61.4
LeBron 64

WS
Jordan 214
LeBron 236.4

This is only in the regular season. But let's see how they perform in the post season.

Runs above 30 PER
Jordan 4
LeBron 7

Times they lead both teams in GmSC in the finals:
Jordan 5
LeBron 6

So LeBron was actually the best player on the court in the finals more times than Michael Jordan.

Total points
Jordan 5987
LeBron 7491

Total rebounds
Jordan 1152
LeBron 2348

Total assists
Jordan 1022
LeBron 1871

Runs above 60ts%
Jordan 1
LeBron 6

LeBron is much more efficient with his scoring. Therefore is the advantage on PPG so important since LeBron outrebounds MJ and outassists him largely?

Peak ts%
MJ 60.2
LeBron 66.8

Shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of efficiency PER POSSESSION, where mj's is higher (ortg)

So MJ averaged 5 more points in the playoffs with better efficiency per possession.

And Jordan wasn't sharing the load with a teammate that averaged nearly as much - he CARRIED the scoring load and only shared load in the secondary categories

Jordan literally doubled pippen's scoring and assisted 33% more often.. people forget that MJ had higher volume and can't assist on those shots, so his assist percentage was 33% higher than pippen's (28 to 21)

So MJ was the passing leader of the bulls - he assisted 33% more often, while doubling pippen's scoring, aka goat load.. MJ also led the bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside pippen

Overall lebron has lower production rate/stats, aka lower BPM, PER, WS/48, and VORP seasons.. less stats, less accolades, less winning = worse player

[JimiKage]

https://i.postimg.cc/rFdJnGfb/Ek-Ie-Es-JXk-AAi9-GH.jpg

[3ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/rFdJnGfb/Ek-Ie-Es-JXk-AAi9-GH.jpg

He's up there with Worthy and Barkley... Nice

How does he compare to Jordan in production rate, aka BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP seasons?

[8Ball]

Assists per game:
- Jordan's best season was at 8 APG
- LeBron has 5 seasons above that, peaking at 10.2

Assists total:
- Jordan 5633
- LeBron 9346

LeBron is about to double MJ in assists in the regular season only.

Rebounds per game:
- Jordan's best season was at 8 RPG
- LeBron has 3 seasons above that and one equal.

Total rebounds:
- Jordan 6672
- LeBron 9405

There is almost a 3000 difference rebound wise.

Point total:
- Jordan 32292
- LeBron 32241

Seasons above 60ts%
Jordan 4
LeBron 6

Best ts%
Jordan 61.4
LeBron 64

WS
Jordan 214
LeBron 236.4

This is only in the regular season. But let's see how they perform in the post season.

Runs above 30 PER
Jordan 4
LeBron 7

Times they lead both teams in GmSC in the finals:
Jordan 5
LeBron 6

So LeBron was actually the best player on the court in the finals more times than Michael Jordan.

Total points
Jordan 5987
LeBron 7491

Total rebounds
Jordan 1152
LeBron 2348

Total assists
Jordan 1022
LeBron 1871

Runs above 60ts%
Jordan 1
LeBron 6

LeBron is much more efficient with his scoring. Therefore is the advantage on PPG so important since LeBron outrebounds MJ and outassists him largely?

Peak ts%
MJ 60.2
LeBron 66.8

My God.

Beautiful post.

[8Ball]

Both impressive performances in entirely different contexts. Befitting of the two greatest players ever.

It is clear that LeBron has mastered the game. He controls games effortlessly and understands when he needs to score or facilitate, take over or step back. AD's inside presence and perimeter game complements him perfectly.

Jordan had the higher peak ability but LeBron will blow open all the longevity stats. I would still prefer the higher peak though.

I agree with this.

[3ball]

My God.

Beautiful post.

production rate > cumulative stats

so it's a completely useless post

By your logic, Reggie Miller is a better scorer than Larry Bird because he scored 3000 more points, right?

Carry on the fraud tho

[Roundball_Rock]

Both impressive performances in entirely different contexts. Befitting of the two greatest players ever.

It is clear that LeBron has mastered the game. He controls games effortlessly and understands when he needs to score or facilitate, take over or step back. AD's inside presence and perimeter game complements him perfectly.

Jordan had the higher peak ability but LeBron will blow open all the longevity stats. I would still prefer the higher peak though.

That is probably what the debate will come down to: Jordan's peak versus LeBron's longevity and aggregate career. Winning will be contested as well, unless LeBron gets to 6 or more. The argument right now is 6>4 for MJ while for LeBron it is that he won in a variety of situations (teams, coaches, GM's, teammates, etc.).

[3ball]

That is probably what the debate will come down to: Jordan's peak versus LeBron's longevity and aggregate career. Winning will be contested as well, unless LeBron gets to 6 or more. The argument right now is 6>4 for MJ while for LeBron it is that he won in a variety of situations (teams, coaches, GM's, teammates, etc.).

Longevity is bullshit because MJ wasn't allowed to go from McDonald's all-american to pros like Lebron did... Otherwise, lebron would have no longevity case

So only Jordan's arguments can stand scrutiny - his goat production rate isn't going anywhere

[HoopsNY]

Both impressive performances in entirely different contexts. Befitting of the two greatest players ever.

It is clear that LeBron has mastered the game. He controls games effortlessly and understands when he needs to score or facilitate, take over or step back. AD's inside presence and perimeter game complements him perfectly.

Jordan had the higher peak ability but LeBron will blow open all the longevity stats. I would still prefer the higher peak though.

Well said.

[highwhey]

Longevity is bullshit because MJ wasn't allowed to go from McDonald's all-american to pros like Lebron did... Otherwise, lebron would have no longevity case

So only Jordan's arguments can stand scrutiny - his goat production rate isn't going anywhere

You ok man? I know it's gonna be a rough week for you. I'd just like you to know...it's not your fault :(

[Roundball_Rock]

Longevity is used to compare greats in every sport--except the media worships MJ so much only with one athlete in the history of sports does longevity not matter.

Jordan did it to himself. He quit at his peak for mental health reasons (the excuse is he did it because his dad died but his own documentary pointed out he was burned out and talking retirement prior to that). He then retired as reigning MVP and champ because Pippen wouldn't be there to hold his hand any longer and Jackson left as well. Meanwhile LeBron is winning 6 years later after he left Wade and Spo (his best coach).

Jordan presumably had the physical ability to have good longevity. He lacked the mental piece. I say presumably because we don't know how he would have held up if he didn't take 2-3 years off at a time. All his peers started breaking down in the second half of the 90's--except for Malone.

[JimiKage]

Longevity is bullshit because MJ wasn't allowed to go from McDonald's all-american to pros like Lebron did... Otherwise, lebron would have no longevity case

So only Jordan's arguments can stand scrutiny - his goat production rate isn't going anywhere
That's MJs fault for literally taking 2 years off in the midst of his prime :oldlol:

[3ball]

That's MJs fault for literally taking 2 years off in the midst of his prime :oldlol:

MJ was deprived of 3 years by not being able to go from HS to the pros

Without that, lebron fans would have nothing

And the retirement in 94' is another reason the longevity is bullshit.. lebron fans want to claim goat via forfiet, which proves how weak the argument is.. it isn't an argument.. there is no argument

[Roundball_Rock]

That's MJs fault for literally taking 2 years off in the midst of his prime :oldlol:

Then another 3 off despite being the reigning MVP when he retired the second time.

[madmax]

2 assists. :lol

:oldlol:

in my book, that's called being a monumental ballhog...

[HoopsNY]

Longevity is used to compare greats in every sport--except the media worships MJ so much only with one athlete in the history of sports does longevity not matter.

Jordan did it to himself. He quit at his peak for mental health reasons (the excuse is he did it because his dad died but his own documentary pointed out he was burned out and talking retirement prior to that). He then retired as reigning MVP and champ because Pippen wouldn't be there to hold his hand any longer and Jackson left as well. Meanwhile LeBron is winning 6 years later after he left Wade and Spo (his best coach).

Jordan presumably had the physical ability to have good longevity. He lacked the mental piece. I say presumably because we don't know how he would have held up if he didn't take 2-3 years off at a time. All his peers started breaking down in the second half of the 90's--except for Malone.

I think we do and can make some pretty safe assumptions. If MJ returns in 1993-94, the Bulls are winning the chip. Not because of MJ solely, but because Pippen-Grant-Armstrong hit their primes. Pippen was healthy and the Bulls would have dominated on both ends of the floor, even against a Rockets team with peak Hakeem. MJ likely wins MVP that season and Chicago more than likely wins 65-70 games.

Chicago then loses in the 1994-95 finals with the loss of Grant and probably an exhausted (mentally) MJ, but it's very likely he puts up another 32-7-6 season given what we saw in the 1995-96 season.

In 1999, it could go either way, but I think the combination of Rodman+Longley is better than an injured LJ+Camby. The Spurs would also have no answer for Jordan and Pippen, and Kukoc was arguably at the top of his game then. That series might go 7, but I think it's safe to say Chicago wins it and Jordan secures another ring and FMVP.

With all of that being said, we're looking at:

3 more All-NBA selections (14x)
3 more All-Defensive selections (12x)
1-2 more FMVPs (7-8x)
1-2 more MVPs (6-7x)
1-2 more titles (7-8x
3 more finals appearances (9x)

And given MJ nearly won DPOY in 1993, then who knows what happens in '93-'94, but I doubt he beats out Hakeem. He would likely rack up a #2 position, again, which is impressive.

He would also rack up more longevity statistics and wouldn't have the Washington years, so his statistics would look better than they actually do now. I think this hypothetical scares a lot of MJ haters, and is why they default to the "he couldn't handle the pressure and had to retire," forgetting that MJ didn't play alone and that the other core players were entering their peaks, let alone their primes.

But given what it is, LeBron has the better longevity, and that cannot be argued.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think we do and can make some pretty safe assumptions. If MJ returns in 1993-94, the Bulls are winning the chip. Not because of MJ solely, but because Pippen-Grant-Armstrong hit their primes. Pippen was healthy and the Bulls would have dominated on both ends of the floor, even against a Rockets team with peak Hakeem. MJ likely wins MVP that season and Chicago more than likely wins 65-70 games.

Chicago then loses in the 1994-95 finals with the loss of Grant and probably an exhausted (mentally) MJ, but it's very likely he puts up another 32-7-6 season given what we saw in the 1995-96 season.

In 1999, it could go either way, but I think the combination of Rodman+Longley is better than an injured LJ+Camby. The Spurs would also have no answer for Jordan and Pippen, and Kukoc was arguably at the top of his game then. That series might go 7, but I think it's safe to say Chicago wins it and Jordan secures another ring and FMVP.

With all of that being said, we're looking at:

3 more All-NBA selections (14x)
3 more All-Defensive selections (12x)
1-2 more FMVPs (7-8x)
1-2 more MVPs (6-7x)
1-2 more titles (7-8x
3 more finals appearances (9x)

And given MJ nearly won DPOY in 1993, then who knows what happens in '93-'94, but I doubt he beats out Hakeem. He would likely rack up a #2 position, again, which is impressive.

He would also rack up more longevity statistics and wouldn't have the Washington years, so his statistics would look better than they actually do now. I think this hypothetical scares a lot of MJ haters, and is why they default to the "he couldn't handle the pressure and had to retire," forgetting that MJ didn't play alone and that the other core players were entering their peaks, let alone their primes.

But given what it is, LeBron has the better longevity, and that cannot be argued.

All reasonable. There is a chance if he kept playing he would start breaking down and not be the same guy we saw by 97' and 98' but your scenario is very realistic. The problem is we don't evaluate historical figures and what they could have done so LeBron will, as you noted, get credit for the longevity edge and that gap will only grow.

It isn't the be all end all. Kareem crushes MJ in longevity too yet most people have MJ #1/#2 and KAJ #2/#3 (usually it is MJ, LeBron, KAJ in that order).

What is weird to me is I see people, including Broussard this morning, say LeBron clearly is #2 all-time but then act like there is a giant gulf between him and MJ. If he is clearly ahead of KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Shaq, et al. that must mean he is really great. So then why do some like Broussard or people here act like it is an insult that LeBron and MJ get compared?

[3ball]

Jordan's production rate was higher than lebron's, so if MJ went from HS to the pros, those 3 years are enough for MJ to have more points than lebron now, even if he still retired in 94'..

So the longevity argument isn't an argument.. means exactly zero.. aka bird will always be a better scorer than Reggie Miller despite scoring 3000 less pts

[HoopsNY]

All reasonable. There is a chance if he kept playing he would start breaking down and not be the same guy we saw by 97' and 98' but your scenario is very realistic. The problem is we don't evaluate historical figures and what they could have done so LeBron will, as you noted, get credit for the longevity edge and that gap will only grow.

It isn't the be all end all. Kareem crushes MJ in longevity too yet most people have MJ #1/#2 and KAJ #2/#3 (usually it is MJ, LeBron, KAJ in that order).

What is weird to me is I see people, including Broussard this morning, say LeBron clearly is #2 all-time but then act like there is a giant gulf between him and MJ. If he is clearly ahead of KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Shaq, et al. that must mean he is really great. So then why do some like Broussard or people here act like it is an insult that LeBron and MJ get compared?

I think the reason for this is what MJ was able to accomplish in such a limited amount of time with Chicago. His career wasn't ordinary given the untimely death of his father and then his return with the Wizards. Broussard, like many others, are looking at 11 full seasons of play and what he was able to do with them.

Given the fact that the 90s saw no one else really winning or having a chance once you had MJ on the floor for a full season, Broussard and others weigh that into consideration, especially when they look at certain things like the Bulls not losing more than 2 games in a row for nearly 7 years with MJ on the team.

I remember reading an article about how statistically unlikely that is, to the point that one would have a better chance at getting struck by lightening than to see a team do something like that in pro-sports.

[8Ball]

MJ wasn't good enough to go to the pros. So that is an indictment on Jordan.

Jordan couldn't even dominate college enough to be the #1 or #2 pick!


High school LeBron would have been picked #1 above Hakeem. Easily.

[3ball]

MJ wasn't good enough to go to the pros. So that is an indictment on Jordan.

Jordan couldn't even dominate college enough to be the #1 or #2 pick!


High school LeBron would have been picked #1 above Hakeem. Easily.
Jordan was McDonald's all-american and his sick highlights would be all over YouTube today.. the exposure would make him the #1 high school player in the country

Anyone that saw him said he was the best ever - Roy Williams saw him in HS and said he's the best HS player that he ever saw.. Bobby Knight said Jordan was the literal GOAT at the Olympic

[Gus Hemmingway]

Jordan was McDonald's all-american and his highlights would be on YouTube.. so the exposure would make him the #1 high school player in the country

Anyone that saw him said he was the best ever - Roy Williams saw him in HS and said he's the best HS player that he ever saw.. Bobby Knight said Jordan was the literal GOAT at the Olympic

So then why did Jordan lose with an allstar teammate in 1990 and 1995?

[Roundball_Rock]

I think the reason for this is what MJ was able to accomplish in such a limited amount of time with Chicago. His career wasn't ordinary given the untimely death of his father and then his return with the Wizards. Broussard, like many others, are looking at 11 full seasons of play and what he was able to do with them.

Given the fact that the 90s saw no one else really winning or having a chance once you had MJ on the floor for a full season, Broussard and others weigh that into consideration, especially when they look at certain things like the Bulls not losing more than 2 games in a row for nearly 7 years with MJ on the team.

I remember reading an article about how statistically unlikely that is, to the point that one would have a better chance at getting struck by lightening than to see a team do something like that in pro-sports.

The flaw is it is team based. If you put the best player on the best team of his era with no second great team what do you expect? It sets up an easy counter argument, especially with LeBron who can say he played against, not on, the best team of his era (Warriors).

If you strip away team success then Kareem being the best player for a full decade, winning 6 MVP's in a decade is better than MJ's run (or LeBron's) if you are talking 10-11 year windows.

Broussard is 51. He graduated from college the year before MJ won his first chip. He grew up watching MJ as superman and that bias shows. The MJ vs. LeBron debate won't be settled until the media gets more diverse, i.e., when more LeBron era voices enter the fray to counter Brossard, Smith, Wilbon, Bayless--all people who grew up watching and/or covering MJ.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan's production rate was higher than lebron's, so if MJ went from HS to the pros, those 3 years are enough for MJ to have more points than lebron now, even if he still retired in 94'..

So the longevity argument isn't an argument.. means exactly zero.. aka bird will always be a better scorer than Reggie Miller despite scoring 3000 less pts

That's not the way longevity works. You don't just get to focus on years based on entry of play. LeBron has done what he has done over the course of 17 seasons, extending his greatness to a 17th year.

The point of college or no college is in Jordan's favor, but it is not to the detriment of LeBron. I do agree with your point about Bird and Miller, though. I don't believe longevity matters as much as people are saying.

Far too often, we hear the same new fangled arguments over why LBJ > Mj. And they mainly include, but are not limited to:

- Finals appearances
- Longevity statistics
- Accolades
- Tougher era (i.e, competition)

Yet Kobe has all of those over MJ. Kobe seemingly played in a "tougher" era, that also included the toughest defensive era in NBA history. He also has more NBA finals appearances than MJ, more All-Star selections, All-NBA selections, All-Defensive selections, and even more career points, rebounds, assists, 3s, fths, etc than MJ.

Yet no one would really take that argument seriously. So the argument has to remain consistent. The bottomline is, when comparing eras, you just can't look at the discussion without context and through the lens of one era to use against another. It simply doesn't work that way.

[3ball]

The flaw is it is team based. If you put the best player on the best team of his era with no second great team what do you expect? It sets up an easy counter argument, especially with LeBron who can say he played against, not on, the best team of his era (Warriors).

If you strip away team success then Kareem being the best player for a full decade, winning 6 MVP's in a decade is better than MJ's run (or LeBron's) if you are talking 10-11 year windows.

Broussard is 51. He graduated from college the year before MJ won his first chip. He grew up watching MJ as superman and that bias shows. The MJ vs. LeBron debate won't be settled until the media gets more diverse, i.e., when more LeBron era voices enter the fray to counter Brossard, Smith, Wilbon, Bayless--all people who grew up watching and/or covering MJ.

No one viewed the bulls as the best cast of the 90's

No one did

That's a made up narrative 30 years later... by you...

You can't find any articles that say the bulls were stacked

Your stats show that pippen compared okay to other stars of the era.. that's all you've ever shown me.. he wasn't a cut above and was often a cut below.. he was a tad better than Larry Nance.. less than Kemp.. a bit better than Schrempf overall.. a decent 2nd option for the era but nothing more

[8Ball]

Jordan was McDonald's all-american and his sick highlights would be all over YouTube today.. the exposure would make him the #1 high school player in the country

Anyone that saw him said he was the best ever - Roy Williams saw him in HS and said he's the best HS player that he ever saw.. Bobby Knight said Jordan was the literal GOAT at the Olympic

Jordan still could not dominate college hard enough to make #1 or #2 pick.

That's Jordans fault.

LeBron on a garbage ass high school dominated so hard there was zero doubt.

Imagine someone picking SAM BOWIE over high school LeBron. Never.

[Roundball_Rock]

The point of college or no college is in Jordan's favor, but it is not to the detriment of LeBron. I do agree with your point about Bird and Miller, though. I don't believe longevity matters as much as people are saying.

How is it a detriment to LeBron? He was good enough to be the #1 pick out of high school. That is rare. If you do an all-time draft, based on what was known at draft time, LeBron, KAJ, Shaq, Wilt are the only legit candidates to go #1. Which one is not like the others?

Miller is one of many examples of longevity boosting a player. Miller did not have a top 50-60 prime but longevity gets him there all-time. Jordan, Drexler, Richmond, Dumars were all better than him in his era at his own positions when these players were in their primes. Never mind stars at the other four positions.

Stockton is another one. His peak/prime wasn't top 30. He is the only top 30 player who was never a MVP candidate, for example.

These are two players MJ fans love to hype.


And they mainly include, but are not limited to:

- Finals appearances
- Longevity statistics
- Accolades
- Tougher era (i.e, competition)

Longevity is a legit one. Accolades tie back to longevity here.

The era stuff is made by MJ fans themselves against KAJ and Wilt/Russell. LeBron fans are just using the same logic back at MJ. The fact is the game when KAJ played was basically the same as when MJ did. Today's game is completely different with the advent of international players as 1/5 or 1/4 the league and the 3ball. Centers that dominated the 20th century are almost extinct in this era.

MJ fans amusingly also undercut their own era with the Pippen Derangement Syndrome crusade. Any fan knows Pippen was one of the most accomplished players of that era. If you are the type of fan who posts on a place like ISH, you know he comes in 5th or 6th among 90's players on all-time lists. So if he sucked, if he was Iggy, etc.--that destroys the credibility of MJ's era. Isn't that exactly what some extreme LeBron stans say? MJ played against bums?


Yet Kobe has all of those over MJ. Kobe seemingly played in a "tougher" era, that also included the toughest defensive era in NBA history. He also has more NBA finals appearances than MJ, more All-Star selections, All-NBA selections, All-Defensive selections, and even more career points, rebounds, assists, 3s, fths, etc than MJ.

Kobe also won less MVP's than Malone, Duncan, Nash, LeBron, and Curry--all contemporaries of his. Different levels. LeBron clearly is the best player of his era. You can't be GOAT if you weren't the best player of your own era after all.

[HoopsNY]

The flaw is it is team based. If you put the best player on the best team of his era with no second great team what do you expect? It sets up an easy counter argument, especially with LeBron who can say he played against, not on, the best team of his era (Warriors).

Which is why I say LeBron still has at least 3 titles. The problem is LeBron lost those years against GS, including one with Kyrie/Love. I actually think MJ wins in 2017 against GS, not because he would outshoot/outscore them, but because he was a superior defensive player that could guard the perimeter better to counter GS' perimeter threats.


If you strip away team success then Kareem being the best player for a full decade, winning 6 MVP's in a decade is better than MJ's run (or LeBron's) if you are talking 10-11 year windows.

I know you don't agree with this, as we have had this discussion before, but what hurts Kareem is that Magic is seen as being the savior of the Lakers and being the best player for the majority of the 1980s. So in Kareem's case, while he clearly has GOAT longevity, he seems to take the backseat in the eyes of many to Magic after Magic's first 3 seasons with LAL.


Broussard is 51. He graduated from college the year before MJ won his first chip. He grew up watching MJ as superman and that bias shows. The MJ vs. LeBron debate won't be settled until the media gets more diverse, i.e., when more LeBron era voices enter the fray to counter Brossard, Smith, Wilbon, Bayless--all people who grew up watching and/or covering MJ.

I can't speak for Broussard's views, but I don't think he's very good at articulating his points.

Despite the Bulls' team successes, as you have mentioned, what stands out, at least for me, is being an elite offensive AND defensive weapon.

It's why I admire Hakeem Olajuwon. We're not just talking about passing here. We're not just looking at overall statistics - (like triple doubles, which are skewed anyway as LeBron stans operate as if LeBron is unique in getting triple doubles in this era.) :lol

We're looking at basketball IQ, both offensively AND defensively. While Lebron has a stretch where he was a great defender, I don't think it compares to peak MJ or Hakeem.

So it's more about skills (offensive and defensive), athleticism, IQ (offensive and defensive), and leadership. And sorry, but an occasional chase down block doesn't suddenly give you GOAT defensive IQ. It makes for great highlight reels, but it in no way is the same as Penny Hardaway coming down the lane, seeing Hakeem in the post, and changing up the entire play just because of that.

[8Ball]

Jordan college stats...

13ppg
20ppg
19.6ppg

Pathetic.

[Spurs m8]

If only stat padding was a measure of success.

You losers will just never get it haha

You can just tell you're fat or dweeby basement dwellers who don't actually understand sport....


EMPTY STATS STATS STATS STATS

[HoopsNY]

How is it a detriment to LeBron? He was good enough to be the #1 pick out of high school. That is rare. If you do an all-time draft, based on what was known at draft time, LeBron, KAJ, Shaq, Wilt are the only legit candidates to go #1. Which one is not like the others?

It's not. I clearly said, "it is NOT to the detriment of LeBron."


The era stuff is made by MJ fans themselves against KAJ and Wilt/Russell. LeBron fans are just using the same logic back at MJ. The fact is the game when KAJ played was basically the same as when MJ did. Today's game is completely different with the advent of international players as 1/5 or 1/4 the league and the 3ball. Centers that dominated the 20th century are almost extinct in this era.

The problem with this argument is that the 60s and 70s saw the highest pace of play, making overall statistics rather skewed. In addition, people say this about the 60s because of Wilt, with a lack of....well, big men. Wilt's 50 ppg looks better than it really was when considering the average center being about 6'6" 220.

LeBron stans use the athleticism argument as a counter, claiming MJ faced flat footed guys who couldn't contend. The problem with this argument is that no one has matched MJ's athleticism since his time, making the counter argument rather futile if you don't have perimeter guys who can counter him. And when you consider the era of position-less basketball, who is stopping a young MJ from slashing to the basket, which is what he primarily did for his first 6 seasons in the league.

As for the Euro argument, then I have a problem with this when over the last 22 years of NBA history has given us Manu, Dirk, Jokic, Luka, Gasol, Parker.....and? How many great international phenoms have there really been? It just seems like it's a law of probability here.

If those international players aren't around, then is it reasonable to think there wouldn't be a viable replacement? The clock strikes 12 twice in a day. I struggle with this concept when we're averaging 2-3 great international players every decade, especially players who aren't top 10 or 20 all-time.


MJ fans amusingly also undercut their own era with the Pippen Derangement Syndrome crusade. Any fan knows Pippen was one of the most accomplished players of that era. If you are the type of fan who posts on a place like ISH, you know he comes in 5th or 6th among 90's players on all-time lists. So if he sucked, if he was Iggy, etc.--that destroys the credibility of MJ's era. Isn't that exactly what some extreme LeBron stans say? MJ played against bums?


No disagreement here. This is a ridiculous take from some MJ stans, one that I stopped responding to on this forum because it just gets tiring and is of no substance.


Kobe also won less MVP's than Malone, Duncan, Nash, LeBron, and Curry--all contemporaries of his. Different levels. LeBron clearly is the best player of his era. You can't be GOAT if you weren't the best player of your own era after all.

I agree with that. My point to highlight is the primary arguments used can work in favor of Kobe > Mj as well. The problem is these arguments are heavily devoid of context, something LBJ stans don't like to get into. It's like the consistent claim of "MJ couldn't win a series until Pippen arrived," conveniently ignoring that rookie Pippen and 90s Pippen were two different players.

[Nash]

Somebody averaging 33 points and 2 assists on 43% would be traded in a Lebron lead team :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Micku]

I disagree on the idea that LeBron isn't near close to MJ.
Context do matter tho. There are loads of context that you could give to either player. With MJ, it was a big man league. Harder to score for perimeter players. And he dominated.
With LeBron, he had a bunch of unlucky breaks with his key teammates being injured. He ran into the GSW and pretty much had no chance of winning. But the fact that his 2018 performance, and the fact he usually get his team to the finals shows how impactful he is.

Longevity do take into consideration.

But it's not that MJ doesn't have that either. Among his peers like Barkley, Hakeem, he's better than. Better than Clyde, Bird, Magic, Karl Malone, better than Shaq and etc. He was still winning the MVP at that age. It's just that you can tell he lost a step. And his overall stats decrease to what they were in the early 90s and late 80s. You could also take into account that the league itself was becoming more defensive and slow pace style. So, grit and grind. If you check out MJ's finish percentage at the rim, it's crazy low than what you would expect. In 97, he shot 51% at the rim. In 98, he shot 62%.

In comparison, compare Kobe's shooting percentage at the rim. In 12 and 13, he shot both years he shot 69% when rounding off. And he was 32 and 33. And funny enough, this was his career high. MJ even at 35, was more athletic than Kobe when he was at 32 and 33. Imo, it just shows the the lane and the paint opened up a lot since the early 00s and late 90s. But a better test would to see how all perimeter players who played in both eras, and see their shooting % at the rim.

With all that side, I'm on the side that MJ's peak is better. LeBron at the age of 35 is better than MJ. LeBron kept a lot of his athleticism. And I'm willing to bet that he takes care of his body a lot more than MJ did. But MJ is still crazy in that regard, whatever it's natural ability or what, cuz he played 82 games almost all the time. This is relative to the era. I don't know how good MJ would be in this era. Lebron is amazing in his mid 30s.

[ImKobe]

Take Karl Malone and Stockton off the Jazz and MJ sweeps them. Lebron went 6 games with Bam, Dragic and Butler all going through injuries with Miami missing 2 of their top 3 players for almost half the series w/ their leading scorer in the first 3 rds out for 4 1/2 of them.

[Vino24]

Take Karl Malone and Stockton off the Jazz and MJ sweeps them. Lebron went 6 games with Bam, Dragic and Butler all going through injuries with Miami missing 2 of their top 3 players for almost half the series w/ their leading scorer in the first 3 rds out for 4 1/2 of them.

And yet Miami still has 5+ players in double figures. Imagine 5 more John Stockton’s

[ImKobe]

And yet Miami still has 5+ players in double figures. Imagine 5 more John Stockton’s

Different eras.

[Micku]

And yet Miami still has 5+ players in double figures. Imagine 5 more John Stockton’s

The Bulls already faced a team similar. Portland had that. They had 6 players who were in double figures in the playoffs. Two guys scored over 20 ppg. 7 in the RS. They don't really get their respect no more. Maybe cuz ppl don't remember them, too young or what. But they were loaded.

It's like the Kings 02 was the best team I ever seen to not win a chip till like 16 GSW if you can count that. The Kings also had like 6-7 players who could score in double figures. Peja was injured too in the playoffs. There are still ppl who remember them tho.

[Spurs m8]

Take Karl Malone and Stockton off the Jazz and MJ sweeps them. Lebron went 6 games with Bam, Dragic and Butler all going through injuries with Miami missing 2 of their top 3 players for almost half the series w/ their leading scorer in the first 3 rds out for 4 1/2 of them.

This

We know context and facts have never worked in brons favour

[3ball]

.


Lebron ran into the GSW and pretty much had no chance of winning.



If everyone knew in advance that MVP Curry wouldn't exist in the 16' Finals and Kyrie would kill him, no one would predict the Warriors would win

And you're forgetting that the 15' Cavs were the league favorite in the preseason and pre-playoffs before Love got hurt - so they were considered the better assemblage of talent, but their weaker brand won a pathetic 50-something games and became underdogs

Finally, if Rik Smits outplayed Shaq in the 00' Finals, would anyone say that Miller had a goat accomplishment by winning that series?.. if KJ outplayed MJ, would anyone say Barkley had a goat accomplishment... if Kenyon outplayed Duncan in 03', would anyone say Kidd had a goat accomplishment?.. you can do this with any Finals.. so why does lebron get credit when others wouldn't?.. it's ridiculous..

lebron should get knocked for averaging 24 and 6 TO's thru 4 games, which caused a 7 game series despite Kyrie's destruction of the league MVP





his 2018 performance, and the fact he usually get his team to the finals



Love was the best 2nd option in the conference and possibly the best 1st option outside of lebron.. So lebron had the best cast - aka the best sidekick and a team of championship veterans.

Secondly, he played horrible teams - who cares about carry-jobs against weak teams because everyone does that... MJ beat weak teams like the 18' Celtics with zero help - that's nothing for MJ - MJ beat the #1 SRS team in 89' with a low-seeded, lottery cast.. otoh, lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had a carry-job against a good team.. the East is a joke..

More importantly, 1-star teams routinely win the East, like Butler this year, or 01' Iverson, 03' Kidd, 09' Dwight or 07' Lebron.. So why does lebron get more credit then they got?.





Longevity do take into consideration.



Longevity doesn't relate to skill or on-court performance, and therefore isn't an argument

MJ simply wasn't allowed to go from McDonald's all-american to the NBA like Lebron

And no one knew about MJ because there was no YouTube.. but the coaches that saw him in high school said he would as the best high school player they ever saw ((Coach Roy Williams)

[light]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcclaimedGroundedAmericancrocodile-size_restricted.gif

LeBron actually shot 59.1% in the Finals (while leading his team in 3PT makes). Not 56%. Plus a 33.6 PER compared to the 28.7 PER from 35 year old MJ.

Bron completely annihilated Jordan's Finals performance at the same age. Actually, it looks like LeBron won't reach Jordan's diminished level until he's in his 40s.

[FireDavidKahn]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkGOTfnU8AAU_X7?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[3ball]

LeBron actually shot 59.1% in the Finals (while leading his team in 3PT makes). Not 56%. Plus a 33.6 PER compared to the 28.7 PER from 35 year old MJ.

Bron completely annihilated Jordan's Finals performance at the same age. Actually, it looks like LeBron won't reach Jordan's diminished level until he's in his 40s.

What a joke

Lebron scored 27% of his team's points compared to 38% for Jordan (Finals record)

So lebron's efficiency is inflated due to this lower burden, and also because his teammate attracted attention - AD scored nearly as much, while Jordan scored 18 more than pippen, who was always ignored..

Jordan also faced lower pace (10% lower) and drtg (10% lower).. so if you adjust his 33.6 ppg for pace and drtg, you're looking at 40 ppg

[Vino24]

What a joke

Lebron scored 27% of his team's points compared to 38% for Jordan (Finals record)

lebron's efficiency is inflated due to this lower burden, and also because his teammate attracted attention - AD scored nearly as much, while Jordan scored 18 more than pippen, who was always ignored..

Jordan also faced lower pace (10% lower) and drtg (10% lower).. so if you adjust his 33.6 ppg for pace and drtg, you're looking at 40 ppg

LeBron is responsible for 50ppg. Keep ignoring assists

[3ball]

LeBron is responsible for 50ppg. Keep ignoring assists

lebron's ball-dominance lowers ball movement and therefore his TEAM'S assists compared to Jordan - lebron has low assist teams and the common thread in lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists

So Lebron's high personal assists are a negative compared to Jordan

Ultimately, assists are a team decision to let 1 guy dominate the ball with 10 apg (Nash, CP3, lebron), or move the ball with 5 apg (tony parker, curry, jordan)

And it hurts a team if the SG averages 10 rebounds and takes rebounds from the bigs.. chemistry is a real thing

So only scoring matters when comparing lebron and jordan or any 2 wing player's

[Goldrush25]

Both impressive performances in entirely different contexts. Befitting of the two greatest players ever.

It is clear that LeBron has mastered the game. He controls games effortlessly and understands when he needs to score or facilitate, take over or step back. AD's inside presence and perimeter game complements him perfectly.

Jordan had the higher peak ability but LeBron will blow open all the longevity stats. I would still prefer the higher peak though.

Slightly higher peak. I think the sustained high level of play will give Lebron the GOAT title though. I'm expecting him to be able to play at an all-star level past age 40.

[Vino24]

lebron's ball-dominance lowers ball movement and therefore his TEAM'S assists compared to Jordan - lebron has low assist teams and the common thread in lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists

So Lebron's high personal assists are a negative compared to Jordan

Ultimately, assists are a team decision to let 1 guy dominate the ball with 10 apg (Nash, CP3, lebron), or move the ball with 5 apg (tony parker, curry, jordan)

And it hurts a team if the SG averages 10 rebounds and takes rebounds from the bigs.. chemistry is a real thing

So only scoring matters when comparing lebron and jordan or any 2 wing player's

Yeah that really hurt them... fvcking bozo

[Vino24]

Lakers out-assisted the heat as a team. You are no fun anymore 3ball. You don’t even research or add links anymore

[tontoz]

I see screwball is having a meltdown:lol

[3ball]

Lakers out-assisted the heat as a team. You are no fun anymore 3ball. You don’t even research or add links anymore
And?

We know the Heat were vastly overmatched.. and injured

But normally, lebron's low assist teams and AAU brand hurts him against ball movement teams like the Spurs, Warriors or Mavs

Ball movement is lebron's kryptonite

[Vino24]

I see screwball is having a meltdown:lol

Yup! 3ball doesn’t even use stats anymore. Just pure emotion

[dankok8]

Longevity will be a nice edge for Lebron when his career is done but longevity on its own doesn't give one the GOAT title. Longevity is a tiebreaker if two players have equal peaks and equal accomplishments. Thus far, Jordan still has more titles 6-4, more MVP's total 11-8 etc. If Lebron gets to 6 titles as the best player as well, then his longevity can break the tie in his favor maybe if their peaks are considered close. But with 4 or even 5 titles if he gets one more, not many people will take him over Jordan.

I won't entertain the era differences because those cannot be quantified. But yes it's probably easier to put up numbers now than in the 90's.

[3ball]

Yup! 3ball doesn’t even use stats anymore. Just pure emotion

Lebron was massively out-assisted in his Finals losses

You pointed out their win this year, aka irrelevant

[1987_Lakers]

And?

We know the Heat were vastly overmatched.. and injured

But normally, lebron's low assist teams and AAU brand hurts him against ball movement teams like the Spurs, Warriors or Mavs

Ball movement is lebron's kryptonite

Except LeBron has beaten the Spurs and Warriors in the Finals. You have nothing.

[red1]

3ball you already lost every argument and you've shifted the goalposts every time so you've just proven that you're an irrational hater. as if we didn't know that already.


so I'll just use your logic against your idol - mj never won without pippen.


never won without phil jackson


only ever won with a supporting cast that was capable of winning 55-games when led by pippen.




we repeat- pippen's bulls won 55 without mj and went to the second round of the playoffs - that's the definition of stacked. :roll:

[red1]

meanwhile lebron is the only player in nba history with a finals MVP over a 70-win team.

only player in NBA history with finals MVPs leading three different franchises, 3 different coaches, and 3 different rosters to the title. of course he had great teammates as well - its a team sport.


thats the definition of a winner and its a GOAT achievement.

[1987_Lakers]

3ball you already lost every argument and you've shifted the goalposts every time so you've just proven that you're an irrational hater. as if we didn't know that already.


so I'll just use your logic against your idol - mj never won without pippen.


never won without phil jackson


only ever won with a supporting cast that was capable of winning 55-games when led by pippen.




we repeat- pippen's bulls won 55 without mj and went to the second round of the playoffs - that's the definition of stacked. :roll:

He's too stupid to realize that his retarded logic can easily be used against him, he reminds me of jlauber who had a Wilt obsession, he would post paragraphs defending Wilt with idiotic logic and this board would just troll him time every time he posted. What these posters don't realize is that they are only turning people off to the player that they obsess over.

[3ball]

3ball you already lost every argument and you've shifted the goalposts every time so you've just proven that you're an irrational hater. as if we didn't know that already.


so I'll just use your logic against your idol - mj never won without pippen.


never won without phil jackson


only ever won with a supporting cast that was capable of winning 55-games when led by pippen.




we repeat- pippen's bulls won 55 without mj and went to the second round of the playoffs - that's the definition of stacked. :roll:

I've won every argument

You guys simply lack the attention span to read through my response and see that I infact won

Here, I'll do it again with the following response:

any 3-peat team would have enough teamwork to make the playoffs without their star.. otoh, only the bulls became 3-peat champs by adding 1 guy

Ultimately, ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator - Nash and cp3 teams collapsed without them in 12' and 13'.. otoh, ball movement teams keep moving the ball without their star and fall off less, aka 20' Raptors, 90's bulls, or warriors/spurs without Duncan or Curry

[HoopsNY]

With LeBron, he had a bunch of unlucky breaks with his key teammates being injured. He ran into the GSW and pretty much had no chance of winning. But the fact that his 2018 performance, and the fact he usually get his team to the finals shows how impactful he is.

Interesting that the Rockets took the Warriors in 2018 to 7 games and didn't have Chris Paul for games 6 and 7, yet the season prior, LeBron with Kyrie/Love got the gentlemen's sweep. Yet that fact is conveniently overlooked when Bran stans compare "competition."


Except LeBron has beaten the Spurs and Warriors in the Finals. You have nothing.

So a 58 win Spurs team that was not elite offensively, with a second year Kawhi and 36 year old Tim Duncan are suddenly an insurmountable task?

Kawhi gets shitted on this forum all the time for not having many all-star seasons or notable seasons all together, yet suddenly we anoint him 2019 FMVP status via 2013? Interesting how that works on this forum as a snide way of diminishing from MJ's competition in order to propel's LeBron's, where we can just lie about the status of his opponents.

You act as if the 73 win team was the same as the regular season, meanwhile the Warriors played with no Bogut (rim protector and All-Defensive 2nd team), an injured Steph, and had Draymond suspended for a pivotal game 5. Suddenly none of that counts?

Why the emphasis on minimizing Chicago's competition, but no critical analysis of LeBron's?

[8Ball]

lebron's ball-dominance lowers ball movement and therefore his TEAM'S assists compared to Jordan - lebron has low assist teams and the common thread in lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists

So Lebron's high personal assists are a negative compared to Jordan

Ultimately, assists are a team decision to let 1 guy dominate the ball with 10 apg (Nash, CP3, lebron), or move the ball with 5 apg (tony parker, curry, jordan)

And it hurts a team if the SG averages 10 rebounds and takes rebounds from the bigs.. chemistry is a real thing

So only scoring matters when comparing lebron and jordan or any 2 wing player's

Hurts the team so much they win championships.

:lol

[8Ball]

I've won every argument

You guys simply lack the attention span to read through my response and see that I infact won

Here, I'll do it again with the following response:

any 3-peat team would have enough teamwork to make the playoffs without their star.. otoh, only the bulls became 3-peat champs by adding 1 guy

Ultimately, ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator - Nash and cp3 teams collapsed without them in 12' and 13'.. otoh, ball movement teams keep moving the ball without their star and fall off less, aka 20' Raptors, 90's bulls, or warriors/spurs without Duncan or Curry


Brings me so much joy to see Jordan stans crushed so much today.

[1987_Lakers]

So a 58 win Spurs team that was not elite offensively, with a second year Kawhi and 36 year old Tim Duncan are suddenly an insurmountable task?

Kawhi gets shitted on this forum all the time for not having many all-star seasons or notable seasons all together, yet suddenly we anoint him 2019 FMVP status via 2013? Interesting how that works on this forum as a snide way of diminishing from MJ's competition in order to propel's LeBron's, where we can just lie about the status of his opponents.

You act as if the 73 win team was the same as the regular season, meanwhile the Warriors played with no Bogut (rim protector and All-Defensive 2nd team), an injured Steph, and had Draymond suspended for a pivotal game 5. Suddenly none of that counts?

Why the emphasis on minimizing Chicago's competition, but no critical analysis of LeBron's?

3ball said teams with ball-movement were a weakness for LeBron, the 2012-2014 Spurs to that point moved the ball better than any team in the last 20-25 years, in 2013 they had the #3 defense and LeBron beat them. I was proving a point. Those Spurs teams were the best San Antonio team of the Greg Popovich era.

And in 2016 the Cavs beat the Warriors in game 3 without Kevin Love, it's easy to say "Well, that player didn't play", excuse when things don't go your way.

[red1]

I've won every argument

You guys simply lack the attention span to read through my response and see that I infact won

Here, I'll do it again with the following response:

any 3-peat team would have enough teamwork to make the playoffs without their star.. otoh, only the bulls became 3-peat champs by adding 1 guy

Ultimately, ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator - Nash and cp3 teams collapsed without them in 12' and 13'.. otoh, ball movement teams keep moving the ball without their star and fall off less, aka 20' Raptors, 90's bulls, or warriors/spurs without Duncan or Curry
you lost every. single. argument.


then you flip-flopped and changed the goalpost.


you argued that he could never win a ring without a superteam.


lebron's ball dominant system has led three franchises to a ring - the most versatile player in NBA history.


jordan never won a single ring without a 55-win system in place, as evidenced by pippen's 94 bulls.




jordan is a manufactured fraud who would be ringless without pippen and phil jackson.





see? I did exactly what you do.

[red1]

3ball said teams with ball-movement were a weakness for LeBron, the 2012-2014 Spurs to that point moved the ball better than any team in the last 20-25 years, in 2013 they had the #3 defense and LeBron beat them. I was proving a point. Those Spurs teams were the best San Antonio team of the Greg Popovich era.

And in 2016 the Cavs beat the Warriors in game 3 without Kevin Love, it's easy to say "Well, that player didn't play", excuse when things don't go your way.

he lost every single argument. I've scalped him and hung him on my wall - Im undefeated against him.


he used to tell me that KG dirk and moses malone would retire higher all-time. "fraud will get exposed"


4 finals MVPs later "buh buh ray allen buh buh kyrie" and now "buh buh AD"




just give it up 3ball. you lost.

[3ball]

he lost every single argument. I've scalped him and hung him on my wall - Im undefeated against him.


he used to tell me that KG dirk and moses malone would retire higher all-time. "fraud will get exposed"


4 finals MVPs later "buh buh ray allen buh buh kyrie" and now "buh buh AD"




just give it up 3ball. you lost.

I won every argument and turned you guys into 1-9 spambots

Only 3ball can do that

Any argument you make gets shot completely down

[Spurs m8]

I won every argument and turned you guys into 1-9 spambots

Only 3ball can do that

Any argument you make gets shot completely down

This is true.

They never address things

[1987_Lakers]

he lost every single argument. I've scalped him and hung him on my wall - Im undefeated against him.


he used to tell me that KG dirk and moses malone would retire higher all-time. "fraud will get exposed"


4 finals MVPs later "buh buh ray allen buh buh kyrie" and now "buh buh AD"




just give it up 3ball. you lost.

:oldlol:

[Vino24]

3ball’s version of “winning” seems an awful lot like losing

[3ball]

3ball’s version of “winning” seems an awful lot like losing

Make an argument for lebron and see how fast it gets shot down with pinpoint accuracy... Taking your argument head-on... And destroying it

Go for it...

73 wins?

conference finals streak?

longevity?

You dare not say peak

[Micku]

Interesting that the Rockets took the Warriors in 2018 to 7 games and didn't have Chris Paul for games 6 and 7, yet the season prior, LeBron with Kyrie/Love got the gentlemen's sweep. Yet that fact is conveniently overlooked when Bran stans compare "competition."


The Rockets was one hell of a team that year. I don't think the Cavs would've beat the Rockets either.

Another thing about LeBron is that he really did have a bunch of talent on his team. It just didn't work out. With Miami, chemistry and injuries. With the cavs, definitely with Love, chemistry and injuries.

In both Miami and the Cavs, I felt they never reached their full potential. At the time, I blamed it on chemistry and LeBron/Wade/Kyrie/Love needing the ball to be effective. And the pacing. But it could've been a bad fit. The hate the surrounded LeBron from joining the Miami Heat kind'a went away due to Wade regressing and them winning chips. Same thing with KD joining the Warriors.

When doing a comparison to MJ, that just wasn't a thing back then. Stars usually team up when they get old. But that's why Pippen is so underrated or overrated depending on who you talk to lol. Lots of ppl overrated Pippen in his rookie year, acting like he was special. And the 1990 migraine headache and Horace Grant not playing well did cost MJ a trip to the finals. If that happened today? Wheeeew. The forums would not shut up about it. He made it up for it tho.

But Pippen in general wasn't the star that D-Wade was. So, even if MJ was on another team and went to join Pippen, it wouldn't be as big as Shaq joining MJ or Hakeem, Barkley, David Robinson, and etc.

I'm getting off topic.

Point is, imo, lots of LeBron teams didn't reach their potential. They were suppose to be similar to the GSW in terms of success and dominance. They never were. And even though LeBron ran into the GSW multiple times, it doesn't mean the Cavs would beat the Rockets 18 or Spurs 17 if healthy or whatever team. They were lucky to beat the 16 Warriors imo, lol. It would've been fun to see the 16 Thunder vs 16 Cavs.

[Bankaii]

Ultimately, ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator - Nash and cp3 teams collapsed without them in 12' and 13'..
I’m surprised nobody called him out for this bs.
Wtf are you even talking about with this?

[3ball]

I’m surprised nobody called him out for this bs.
Wtf are you even talking about with this?

New Orleans fell from 46-36 to 21-45 without cp3 in a 2012.

Suns fell from 41-41 to 25-47 in 2013 without Nash

Again, ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator

[Vino24]

LeBron Is the only one to beat a 70 win team in the finals

[Axe]

I remember bran's last season with the cavs two years ago. :oldlol:

At one point the team had rose, wade, korver alongside the older players until the trade deadline a week before the 2018 asg. With all of them together, they couldn't get the rhythm right and would only win 30 games out of the first 50 during that season. Lots of experiment happened but felt so underwhelming.

Can't figure out what makes them lose insignificant games, including one where they got blown out by the raptors and they couldn't get past the 55-win mark but hey, with all that bunch of scrubs he was still able to lead them to his last finals trip out of the east. Sadly, they got eaten alive by the warriors in their fourth straight rematch.

[3ball]

LeBron Is the only one to beat a 70 win team in the finals

He's the only one to collude

Imagine prime cp3 with Wade/Bosh.. good lawd

[Vino24]

He's the only one to collude

Imagine prime cp3 with Wade/Bosh.. good lawd

You didn’t refute it

[3ball]

You didn’t refute it

I did

He colluded for extra help, which resulted in favorite status over the Warriors in 2015 before the Love injury..

So lebron's Cavs had more talent but fell to underdog because bron-ball won 50-something games, while Curry-ball won 70

You guys are weaponizing lebron's 50 win underachievement by saying his team was bad.. but his team was initially favored before he underachieved with 50 wins.. it's fraud to act like 16' was an upset when the Cavs were initially favored in 15' but simply underachieved the following regular season.. I think the Cavs were the preseason favorite in 16' too

And no one would've predicted a warriors victory if they knew that Kyrie would kill curry.. yet lebron still needed 7 games because he wet the bed for the first 4 (24 a d 6 TO's)

[Vino24]

I did

He colluded for extra help, which resulted in favorite status over the Warriors in 2015 before the Love injury..

So lebron's Cavs had more talent but fell to underdog because bron-ball won 50-something games, while Curry-ball won 70

You guys are weaponizing lebron's 50 win underachievement by saying his team was bad.. but his team was initially favored before he underachieved with 50 wins

And no one would've predicted a warriors victory if they knew that Kyrie would kill curry.. yet lebron still needed 7 games because he wet and he bed for the first 4 (24 a d 6 TO's)
JR Smith was the 3rd option. Collusion with role players is common

[3ball]

JR Smith was the 3rd option. Collusion with role players is common

If KJ outplayed MJ in th 93' Finals, would Barkley get credit for a goat accomplishment?

Or if Rik Smits outplayed Shaq in 00', would anyone say Miller had a goat accomplishment?

Of course not - it would be ridiculous, yet lebron gets credit for a goat accomplishment despite the ridiculous help he got ( Kyrie killing Curry).. . it's a shame he needed 7 games despite Kyrie killing Curry - 7 games was needed because lebron wet the bed for the first 4 (24 and 6 TO's)

[TheCorporation]

3ball’s version of “winning” seems an awful lot like losing


Nobody cares about weak 90s banned zone rings anymore

https://i.postimg.cc/QNPvvwR1/legoat-trophy.png

Carry on

[TheCorporation]

You didn’t refute it

https://i.postimg.cc/YqWT78HV/szn-17-vs-szn-17.png

[Bawkish]

https://i.postimg.cc/YqWT78HV/szn-17-vs-szn-17.png

LOL MJ literally just hanging back and spending riches while Bron still desperately doing everything chasing the "ghost"

[TheMan]

MJ pushed to 6 games by a top 2PF all time (Malone)and top 3 PG(Stockton). Lebron pushed to 6 by 5th seed from the East with 2 starters injured.
:lol

[Bankaii]

New Orleans fell from 46-36 to 21-45 without cp3 in a 2012.

Suns fell from 41-41 to 25-47 in 2013 without Nash

Again, ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator
So you’re going to just ignore the fact that Hornets lost their two best players and didn’t replace them with anyone?

The Suns were a trash lottery team with Nash, and a trash lottery team without Nash.

You literally only provide context when it’s relevant to your agenda. You’re not even entertaining or clever.

[And1AllDay]

https://i.postimg.cc/YqWT78HV/szn-17-vs-szn-17.png

bran built different

[TheGoatest]

https://i.postimg.cc/YqWT78HV/szn-17-vs-szn-17.png

:roll:

Here's footage of LeBron visiting the degenerate gambler MJ to take his GOAT trophy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On-yMJn7120

[And1AllDay]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcclaimedGroundedAmericancrocodile-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcclaimedGroundedAmericancrocodile-size_restricted.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

Average score in 2020 Finals: Lakers: 110.0 ppg/ Heat: 104.5 ppg

Average score in 1998 Finals: Bulls: 88.0 ppg / Jazz: 80.2 ppg

Yeah...just a little different defensive climate-wise. :lol

[Lebron23]

Average score in 2020 Finals: Lakers: 110.0 ppg/ Heat: 104.5 ppg

Average score in 1998 Finals: Bulls: 88.0 ppg / Jazz: 80.2 ppg

Yeah...just a little different defensive climate-wise. :lol

Players today are much better 3 points shooters due to zone defense. Jordan and his teammates needs to improve their perimeter shooting if they play in today's nba.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Players today are much better 3 points shooters due to zone defense. Jordan and his teammates needs to improve their perimeter shooting if they play in today's nba.

If you think that the finals ppg averages were ~24 ppg higher than in 1998 just because of 3-point shooting, I have a bridge to sell you. :lol Individual star players were putting up historic numbers all postseason for a reason.

[kawhileonard2]

Players today are much better 3 points shooters due to zone defense. Jordan and his teammates needs to improve their perimeter shooting if they play in today's nba.

Mitchell and Murray have more 50+ point games in the playoffs each than Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Shaq, Hakeem in just one series alone than any of them had in a career.

[bullettooth]

MJ pushed to 6 games by a top 2PF all time (Malone)and top 3 PG(Stockton). Lebron pushed to 6 by 5th seed from the East with 2 starters injured.

https://media.giphy.com/media/SZo24vtpoBTWw/source.gif

[bullettooth]

3ball’s version of “winning” seems an awful lot like losing

That sounds EXACTLY like the praise LeBron gets; lose 6 finals? GOAT!

[AirBonner]

That sounds EXACTLY like the praise LeBron gets; lose 6 finals? GOAT!

You been melting hard lately buddy

[bullettooth]

Wrong. You'll say anything to shit on anyone that exposes your idol. Get over it, LeBron is a fraud.

[Walk on Water]

So the only thing I got out of this thread was Jordan outscored Lebron as usual. If you have 2 teams and one team has more rebounds, blocks, etc but less points, then they will lose.

[leKING]

I think lebron is the greatest 35 year old ever.
However, there are very few people who dominated at this age.

Where was kobe at 35?:lol
19 wins?

[Roundball_Rock]

Average score in 2020 Finals: Lakers: 110.0 ppg/ Heat: 104.5 ppg

Average score in 1998 Finals: Bulls: 88.0 ppg / Jazz: 80.2 ppg

Yeah...just a little different defensive climate-wise. :lol

Look at the hypocrisy. MJ stans never note this when talking about the PPG of MJ's teammates--which we hear from them on a permanent loop. Now because MJ trails LeBron we are finally hearing about context? :roll: