Who Was A Better 2nd Option For Titles...Anthony Davis or Scottie Pippen?

[Round Mound]

Who You Pick?

[Shooter]

Pippen led his team to 55 wins and 3rd in MVP voting without MJ. What did AD do with LBJ? What was his best season for wins and MVP voting? I think like 10th in MVP voting and 45 wins?

Let me know thanks.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Easily Pippen

[Marchesk]

Pippen never put up AD stats.

[Manny98]

AD is the better player but Pippen was better relative to the era he played in

Pippen was literally the best small forward,best defensive player and the second best perimeter player of his entire era and led the Bulls dynasty in rebounds, assists,steals and blocks

You can't say the same with AD

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Depends on the years.

Pippen was never better than '20 AD though. He led LA in a handful of playoff stats, both raw and advanced. I mean, those KAJ comparisons didn't come out of thin air.

[Round Mound]

I wonder what 3-ball has to say abot this thread... :smile:

[Bronbron23]

Who You Pick?

Ad and its not close. Pip had phil jackson. Give ad one of the best coaches ever and he'd do the same. Ad literally better at everything other than passing. Better scorer, rebounder and defender. Its kind of funny how bron stans use stats to help there narrative but totally ignore them when it dosn't.

[Round Mound]

Ad and its not close. Pip had phil jackson. Give ad one of the best coaches ever and he'd do the same. Ad literally better at everything other than passing. Better scorer, rebounder and defender. Its kind of funny how bron stans use stats to help there narrative but totally ignore them when it dosn't.

I picked Pippen cause i got to see him without MJ and he won 55 games and was a play (bull-sht call away) away from getting into the ecf. A.D is the most skilled post up tall big man today and is also a great defender. The competition at SF spot in the 90's was better than A.D´s today.

[Roundball_Rock]

Close but Pippen carried more responsibility for his team than Davis. Pippen was:

*The second scorer
*Primary defender
*Secondary rebounder (sometimes first in the playoffs)
*Primary playmaker
*The "quarterback of the defense"
*The "director" of the offense
*The "voice" of the team (i.e., leadership)

Etc. Davis was:

*The second scorer
*Primary defender
*Secondary rebounder (in the playoffs)

Davis was outrebounded by a SF this year. Why are we acting like he was Rodman? Pippen was a 99th percentile rebounder for a non-big. Davis underachieved on the glass for a player of his position and caliber, probably the only major blemish in his game along with a lack of playmaking. Davis was 12.0 RPG last year but slipped to 9.3 in LA.

[3ball]

What if AD averaged 19 on 42% in these Finals like Pippen did in 6 Finals

Carry on with the fraud

[ThiccBoi]

Pippen but its pretty close. DPOY wing defender and perennial 20/7/5 on great percentages, while not sacrificing defense.

Not to mention, Pippen played in a different era and would easily put up 25/10/5 in today's game, with elite shooting. Basically a bigger Kawhi Leonard.

[Round Mound]

Close but Pippen carried more responsibility for his team than Davis. Pippen was:

*The second scorer
*Primary defender
*Secondary rebounder (sometimes first in the playoffs)
*Primary playmaker
*The "quarterback of the defense"
*The "director" of the offense
*The "voice" of the team (i.e., leadership)

Etc. Davis was:

*The second scorer
*Primary defender
*Secondary rebounder (in the playoffs)

Davis was outrebounded by a SF this year. Why are we acting like he was Rodman? Pippen was a 99th percentile rebounder for a non-big.

Pretty much. :applause:

Don´t worry 3-ball MJ is still the best player ever but its not because he is 6-6 (having the best 2nd option a player could have in the 90's)

[3ball]

What if AD averaged 19 on 42% in these Finals like Pippen did in 6 Finals

Carry on with the fraud

No one

[Round Mound]

What if AD averaged 19 on 42% in these Finals like Pippen did in 6 Finals

Carry on with the fraud

Pippen sucked right? If Pippen sucked so did A.D

No player on the 90's Bulls had more responsability on tasks than Pippen had.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pretty much. :applause:


:cheers:

The Bulls w/out MJ were=to the Bulls w/out Pippen. The Lakers w/out LeBron>the Lakers w/out Davis.


Pippen but its pretty close. DPOY wing defender and perennial 20/7/5 on great percentages, while not sacrificing defense.

Not to mention, Pippen played in a different era and would easily put up 25/10/5 in today's game, with elite shooting. Basically a bigger Kawhi Leonard.

Good point: people like MJ stans talk about stat inflation today but magically don't apply it to Pippen. :oldlol:

[Shooter]

What if AD averaged 19 on 42% in these Finals like Pippen did in 6 Finals

Carry on with the fraud

Against Jeff Hornacek or Jimmy Butler? We'd be fine against 10 ppg second options :lol

Miami's 7th. yes. 7th option scored 10.5 ppg

Different skilled era, keep up baby boi

[Axe]

AD is the better player but Pippen was better relative to the era he played in

Pippen was literally the best small forward,best defensive player and the second best perimeter player of his entire era and led the Bulls dynasty in rebounds, assists,steals and blocks

You can't say the same with AD
How many years do you think has ad been playing for the lakers at this point

[Roundball_Rock]

Against Jeff Hornacek or Jimmy Butler? We'd be fine against 10 ppg second options :lol
:roll:
Miami's 7th. yes. 7th option scored 10.5 ppg

Different skilled era, keep up baby boi

Damn, a 7th option outscoring John Stockton? :roll:

[3ball]

Pippen sucked right? If Pippen sucked so did A:D.

No player on the 90's Bulls had more responsability on tasks than Pippen had.

Jordan was the main passer and doubled pippen's scoring, while getting more dpoy votes every year and being the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton and Miller (opponent's best player)

So you're just lying.. pippen had the least responsibility - just get about 16 on 40% and let MJ assist 33% more often while doubling your scoring.. goat load for MJ (double Pip's scoring and assist 33% more often)

[tpols]

What an embarrassing thread.

Imagine David Robinson on the bulls and what havoc they would wreck.

[Carbine]

'20 Davis is not a sidekick. He's what Kareem was to Magic. '01 Kobe to Shaq.

Also, how can you be a second option when you are the leading scorer?

I'm taking '20 Davis without question here. He had the best big man playoff run since '03 Duncan

[3ball]

Damn, a 7th option outscoring John Stockton? :roll:

Malone was ridiculously better than the Bulls' big men

So MJ had to make up this kind of gap against the opponent's backcourt... Every night

For example, Malone would average 30 and pippen/rodman would average 18 combined

So MJ had to outscore Stockton and Hornecek by 12+

MJ carried the bulls to 6 rings - he literally doubled pippen's playoff scoring average and assisted 33% more often.

[Roundball_Rock]

:violin:

These MJ stans: won't criticize a single thing about any 90's star except Pippen (e.g., recently Drexler--every 90's star was flawless*--except the guy who is remembered as the 5th or 6th greatest player of that era, who sucked!). :lol

*If they are flawless, why are guys like Drexler top 40 AT and Miller top 50-60 and not top 5-10? :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Malone was ridiculously better than the Bulls' big men

So MJ had to make up this kind of gap against the opponent's backcourt... Every night

For example, Malone would average 30 and pippen/rodman would average 18 combined

So MJ had to outscore Stockton and Hornecek by 12+

MJ carried the bulls to 6 rings - he literally doubled pippen's playoff scoring average and assisted 33% more often.


Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

:oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

There's no point on bron related polls when you have wheels with 30 alts

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol:

:lebronamazed:

:lol

[Bronbron23]

You guys are crazy with this shit. Its obviously pip because of the total career but ad is only 27. Yall are talking about ad like he's at the end of his career. He's just starting to peak. Davis is absolutely a better player than pip and i like pip alot but he literally does everything better than pip other than passing.

[3ball]

What happens to the Lakers if AD averaged 19 on 42% like Pippen did in his 6 Finals?

Anyone?

Now carry on with the fraud

[kawhileonard2]

Trick Question as AD was a #1 option. He and Lebron for the playoffs were basically a 30 PER and AD was better stats wise on the season.

[Roundball_Rock]

How long has it been since LeBron left Miami? Since Wade retired? LeBron getting the job done w/out Wade. :bowdown:

That is the flaw in your AD hype. LeBron won without AD too. Jordan is the only GOAT candidate entirely tied to one teammate.

[3ball]

How long has it been since LeBron left Miami? Since Wade retired? LeBron getting the job done w/out Wade. :bowdown:

No Emmy for you

[Roundball_Rock]

Get over it. LeBron succeeds no matter the coach, no matter the GM, no matter the franchise, no matter the teammates around him. Jordan couldn't do the same.

[Bronbron23]

How long has it been since LeBron left Miami? Since Wade retired? LeBron getting the job done w/out Wade. :bowdown:

That is the flaw in your AD hype. LeBron won without AD too. Jordan is the only GOAT candidate entirely tied to one teammate.

Thats such a weird point though. You guys are penalizing mj for staying with one team. You really think mj dosnt win if he teams up with clyde and Shawn kemp or if he teamed up with a great big like ewing. Give mj any great player and he's gonna win. Same goes for lebron although just not as often.

[3ball]

Get over it. LeBron succeeds no matter the coach, no matter the GM, no matter the franchise, no matter the teammates around him. Jordan couldn't do the same.
96-98' Playoffs

pippen 17 on 41%


Jordan's 2nd three-peat team was a completely different roster, except the guy listed above in bold

[Roundball_Rock]

Thats such a weird point though. You guys are penalizing mj for staying with one team.

He had the best team. How hard is it to win with the best team? No other team could contend with a G-Leaguer replacing their best player at the last minute.

Jordan played without Jackson, without Pippen. Did little. Jordan was the reigning MVP but quit because Pippen and Jackson left. Talk about dependency. :oldlol:

[Carbine]

Get over it. LeBron succeeds no matter the coach, no matter the GM, no matter the franchise, no matter the teammates around him. Jordan couldn't do the same.

This is a borderline troll point to make. Mike never played for other teams until he was washed up (relative to his prime) so we don't know what MJ would do if he teamed up with the Blazers in '90, then came back to the Bulls in '94, then went to the Lakers in '97

It's all hypotheticals. Russell didn't win with anyone other than the Celtics - so what?

[1987_Lakers]

This is a borderline troll point to make. Mike never played for other teams until he was washed up (relative to his prime) so we don't know what MJ would do if he teamed up with the Blazers in '90, then came back to the Bulls in '94, then went to the Lakers in '97

It's all hypotheticals. Russell didn't win with anyone other than the Celtics - so what?

Derek Carr for MVP

[Axe]

This is a borderline troll point to make. Mike never played for other teams until he was washed up (relative to his prime) so we don't know what MJ would do if he teamed up with the Blazers in '90, then came back to the Bulls in '94, then went to the Lakers in '97

It's all hypotheticals. Russell didn't win with anyone other than the Celtics - so what?
Yes, and neither did kobe nor duncan. Jesus.

[3ball]

He had the best team. How hard is it to win with the best team? No other team could contend with a G-Leaguer replacing their best player at the last minute.

Jordan played without Jackson, without Pippen. Did little.

MJ did little during the same time that lebron did little (Lebron missed playoffs in his first few years)

Most guys like Lebron, Giannis, Curry, KD, or Kyrie miss the playoffs in their first few years, whereas MJ made the playoffs - he was forced to carry 8 seeds, while Lebron avoided carrying such bad teams - Lebron only had developed high seeds/good teams in the playoffs

[Roundball_Rock]

Mike never played for other teams?

He played with other coaches (needed a HOF coach with a HOF assistant apparently), other teammates...

The excuses MJ gets. :roll: Historic figures are judged on what they actually did, not on "what ifs." Only MJ gets that benefit. :oldlol: We can't bend every NBA player's career to fit the narrow parameters of one guy. Jordan could have would have should--whatever. He didn't.

Montana had success with two teams and multiple coaches. If Brady fails in Tampa (different team, no Belichick), that will be pointed out relative to Montana. Same in, say, F1. Schumacher gets credit for building a championship team from an average team when he left the 2x champs for Ferrari. Others "could" have done it in theory. No one cares--they didn't. They didn't take on the challenge.

Kareem, LeBron did it with multiple teams, multiple coaches, multiple GM's, different star teammates, etc. Jordan didn't. Jordan's success came within the same Pippen/Jackson/Krause cocoon.

[Bronbron23]

He had the best team. How hard is it to win with the best team? No other team could contend with a G-Leaguer replacing their best player at the last minute.

Jordan played without Jackson, without Pippen. Did little. Jordan was the reigning MVP but quit because Pippen and Jackson left. Talk about dependency. :oldlol:

Not hard you just witnessed it dude. At least mj always wins when he has the better team. Can't say the same for bron. 2009 magic, 2011 mavs and 14 spurs say hi :facepalm

[3ball]

He played with other coaches (needed a HOF coach with a HOF assistant apparently), other teammates...

The excuses MJ gets. :roll: Historic figures are judged on what they actually did, not on "what ifs." Only MJ gets that benefit. :oldlol: We can't bend every NBA player's career to fit the narrow parameters of one guy. Jordan could have would have should--whatever. He didn't.

Montana had success with two teams and multiple coaches. If Brady fails in Tampa (different team, no Belichick), that will be pointed out relative to Montana. Same in, say, F1. Schumacher gets credit for building a championship team from an average team when he left the 2x champs for Ferrari. Others "could" have done it in theory. No one cares--they didn't. They didn't take on the challenge.

Kareem, LeBron did it with multiple teams, multiple coaches, multiple GM's, different star teammates, etc. Jordan didn't. Jordan's success came within the same Pippen/Jackson/Krause cocoon.

MJ produced more per game than Lebron, so he was doing more per game and therefore had a tougher "cocoon" than Lebron's big 3 cocoon or top 5 player sidekick cocoon

And MJ was already on the cusp of the Finals in 1989 before Phil got there - he nearly beat the Pistons that year despite 10 on 40% from pippen - so he only needed a better sidekick in 89', not phil

[Roundball_Rock]

Not hard you just witnessed it dude. At least mj always wins when he has the better team.

Jordan was more reliable with the better team because he had no major flaws teams could exploit. You could say the same for others as well. The argument made for people like Montana, Schumacher, LeBron, etc. is they were able to elevate their teams more and that is why they were able to succeed in a variety of situations. It is a different argument and skill.

If Brady fails in Tampa, it will be used against him. Especially if the coach keeps winning w/out him, as was the case before Cam Newton got Covid (we know Jackson kept winning w/out MJ).

Jordan also played before the true player movement era. Teams stayed intact so it was easier to retain your teams' edge (an argument for Brady over Montana BTW--Pats were in the free agency era where dynasties weren't supposed to happen). The Knicks' biggest "addition" was what, Charles Smith? :oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Jordan was more reliable with the better team because he had no major flaws teams could exploit. You could say the same for others as well. The argument made for people like Montana, Schumacher, LeBron, etc. is they were able to elevate their teams more and that is why they were able to succeed in a variety of situations. It is a different argument and skill.

If Brady fails in Tampa, it will be used against him. Especially if the coach keeps winning w/out him, as was the case before Cam Newton got Covid (we know Jackson kept winning w/out MJ).

Jordan also played before the true player movement era. Teams stayed intact so it was easier to retain your teams' edge (an argument for Brady over Montana BTW--Pats were in the free agency era where dynasties weren't supposed to happen). The Knicks' biggest "addition" was what, Charles Smith? :oldlol:

Player movement is irrelevant it was still teams with 1 or 2 stars just like it is now. A few years ago some teams were 3 stars. As far as bron leading bad teams further its hard to say because he's only done it in a weak conference. Mj was in the tougher conference. Shit butler just did it and he's nowhere near brons level. If bron played in the western conference his whole career he'd only have 4 finals trips.

[aceman]

This is such a stupid & predictable thread; why are we judging players on one aspect of their game?? Pippen was second scoring option but his other roles within team such as being point guard & defensive general were far more important.
Even when he become top scorer for two season he didn't relinquish those roles. But just judge players if they just there to stand around & score and nothing else

[Gus Hemmingway]

What if AD averaged 19 on 42% in these Finals like Pippen did in 6 Finals

Carry on with the fraud

What if LeBron averaged 4 and 2 in the Finals? Do Lakers win?

[aceman]

MJ produced more per game than Lebron, so he was doing more per game and therefore had a tougher "cocoon" than Lebron's big 3 cocoon or top 5 player sidekick cocoon

And MJ was already on the cusp of the Finals in 1989 before Phil got there - he nearly beat the Pistons that year despite 10 on 40% from pippen - so he only needed a better sidekick in 89', not phil

Lebron is Jordan & Pippen combined

[Axe]

He now uses Schumacher's success with ferrari in the formula 1 racing as an analogy. How cute. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Player movement is irrelevant it was still teams with 1 or 2 stars just like it is now.

That is because we contort everything to suit one long retired player. As I noted, a major argument made in Brady vs. Montana is player movement. It was easier for the 49'ers to stay on top with the same core returning every year while the Patriots lost players continuously (which is why Montana succeeding in KC matters as a counterpoint).

KD joining a 73 win completely changed the balance of power and eliminated any other team's chances of winning for two years (would have been three but KD, Klay, Cousins were hurt in 19'). That would be like Barkley joining the Blazers or Shaq joining the Jazz. How many rings does MJ have then?

[Bronbron23]

This is such a stupid & predictable thread; why are we judging players on one aspect of their game?? Pippen was second scoring option but his other roles within team such as being point guard & defensive general were far more important.
Even when he become top scorer for two season he didn't relinquish those roles. But just judge players if they just there to stand around & score and nothing else

Who did that? Ad is more than a scorer too though. He's also the defensive General and rebounds also. Its hilarious. Bron stans always go to stats to why bron is the goat but totally ignore them when comparing pip and ad. You guys are awesome

[Roundball_Rock]

This is such a stupid & predictable thread; why are we judging players on one aspect of their game?? Pippen was second scoring option but his other roles within team such as being point guard & defensive general were far more important.
Even when he become top scorer for two season he didn't relinquish those roles. But just judge players if they just there to stand around & score and nothing else

:applause:

Look at how much worse the Bulls got w/out Pippen in 94' and 98' when he missed time. When did the Bulls have a top 10 offense w/out Pippen? They had a top 10 offense w/out Jordan, though. Facilitating matters. Keeping teammates involved matters. Just ask them.

The Bulls w/out Jordan had the #10 offense and #2 defense. That speaks for itself...


What if LeBron averaged 4 and 2 in the Finals? Do Lakers win?

Nope! The Lakers offense can't function without LeBron's facilitating.


Who did that? Ad is more than a scorer too though. He's also the defensive General and rebounds also

You are comparing a SF/PG and PF/C in rebounding. Pippen was a better rebounder relative to his position than Davis was on the 20' Lakers. Davis was 9.3 RPG this year. Pippen peaked at 8.7 RPG as a SF/PG on a much slower paced team/era. :lol It is damning to AD that this comparison even has to be made...he should blow away a perimeter player in rebounding, whether Pippen in the past or LeBron in the present on his own team.

The Lakers' PG outrebounded AD in the playoffs. :oldlol:

[aceman]

Who did that? Ad is more than a scorer too though. He's also the defensive General and rebounds also. Its hilarious. Bron stans always go to stats to why bron is the goat but totally ignore them when comparing pip and ad. You guys are awesome

So why are we comparing on just scoring then??

[3ball]

The Knicks' biggest "addition" was what, Charles Smith? :oldlol:



Xavier McDaniel had 4 straight seasons of 21-24 ppg from 87-90', and then he averaged 17 in 91' before joining the Knicks in 92', where he destroyed pippen in the ECSF

3 times Ewing had teammates outplay pippen, but he still lost each time (89', 92', 96')





Jordan also played before the true player movement era. Teams stayed intact so it was easier to retain your teams' edge (an argument for Brady over Montana BTW--Pats were in the free agency era where dynasties weren't supposed to happen).



The movement era spawned a top-heavy league with only a few Finals-caliber teams - it's easier to be 1 of 2 Finals-caliber teams that have 3 perennial all-stars (heat/spurs or cavs/warriors), than 1 and of many Finals-caliber teams because many teams meet the lower requirement (1 or 2 stars)

Today's league of movement and "big 3" super-teams equates to talent-based winning, which has a lower long-run expectation






Jordan was more reliable with the better team because he had no major flaws teams could exploit. You could say the same for others as well. The argument made for people like Montana, Schumacher, LeBron, etc. is they were able to elevate their teams more and that is why they were able to succeed in a variety of situations. It is a different argument and skill.



Lebron's flaws (can't play in a ball movement system, aka dynasty-ball) lowers his long-run championship expectation compared to other greats

[insidious301]

He now uses Schumacher's success with ferrari in the formula 1 racing. How cute. :oldlol:

I have to admit, Roundball, I laughed here too :oldlol: Then again, I don't follow Nascar. I'm going with AD as well however. I believe his scoring and defense have as much if not more impact. Bigmen typically impact defense more than wings do so that's not saying much anyway. AD proved me wrong this year though. Never thought he would be DPOY level so kudos to him.

[3ball]

What if LeBron averaged 4 and 2 in the Finals? Do Lakers win?

Yes because Lakers hav plenty of rebounders

1st option scoring isn't as replaceable

You want pippen getting MORE shots when he's at 15 on 41% with the little shit he already has?

[aceman]

Xavier McDaniel had 4 straight seasons of 21-24 ppg from 87-90', and then he averaged 17 in 91' before joining the Knicks in 92', where he destroyed pippen in the ECSF

3 times Ewing had teammates outplay pippen, but he still lost each time (89', 92', 96')



The movement era spawned a top-heavy league with only a few Finals-caliber teams - it's easier to be 1 of 2 Finals-caliber teams that have 3 perennial all-stars (heat/spurs or cavs/warriors), than 1 and of many Finals-caliber teams because many teams meet the lower requirement (1 or 2 stars)

Today's league of movement and "big 3" super-teams equates to talent-based winning, which has a lower long-run expectation




Lebron's flaws (can't play in a ball movement system, aka dynasty-ball) lowers his long-run championship expectation compared to other greats

Allow me this semi troll post today; you must be hurting today!!!!

[Roundball_Rock]

I've been using comparisons from other sports my entire time on ISH, as that dishonest alt would know. Why? To show how warped the NBA discussion is because it is geared to suit one player. Stuff that would be relevant in any other context suddenly doesn't matter because it is inconvenient to the media's darling.

The prime example is longevity. In every GOAT list in every sport longevity is a major factor (yet another key point brought up in favor of Brady). Yet when it comes to MJ suddenly it doesn't matter.

For reference, Schumacher showed he could take an average team and turn it into a championship team (taking on the challenge of leaving a championship team). Others went to a championship team and kept them as a championship team. See the LeBron/MJ parallels?

NASCAR you have a similar thing as well. Earnhardt won with a variety of crew chiefs and with two teams. Petty, Johnson with the same CC and the same team (Gordon won 1 chip with a second CC but his results fell off markedly without Evernham outside of that one season). When someone says Earnhardt was the GOAT, they will bring this up. No one wets their pants over the point (if you are the GOAT, shouldn't you be able to dominate with more than one crew chief?). They acknowledge it but formulate counterarguments in other areas.

Why does this stuff matter? If your criteria is drafting/hiring someone for a random team, adaptability/portability/etc. matters.

Axe is a troll incapable of serious, honest debate.

[Carbine]

Ive yet to hear that argument for Montana in football.

Do you know after he left the 49ers won another superbowl?

What did he elevate exactly? He got to play for the then GOAT head coach, surrounded by what I think is the most stacked supporting cast of all time. Either them or the Cowboys.

[Bronbron23]

That is because we contort everything to suit one long retired player. As I noted, a major argument made in Brady vs. Montana is player movement. It was easier for the 49'ers to stay on top with the same core returning every year while the Patriots lost players continuously (which is why Montana succeeding in KC matters as a counterpoint).

joining a 73 win completely changed the balance of power and eliminated any other team's chances of winning for two years (would have been three but KD, Klay, Cousins were hurt in 19'). That would be like Barkley joining the Blazers or Shaq joining the Jazz. How many rings does MJ have then?

Who knows but Rockets had a chance. The bulls would beat the warriors with kd. Rockets had them beat and they did it with defense. Bulls were a much better defensive team. They'd have no problems with kd and the warriors just like they'd handle barkley and drexler or shaq and malone. Mj and the bulls destroyed penny and shaq who at the time were a pretty great duo with a good supporting cast. And its not like bron only lost when shit was unfair. He's lost with the better team more than once. Plus bron was one of the originators of this shit. You cant benefit from doing it and then complain when other teams do it to you.

And Joe was like 37 coming off of a serious injury when he went to kc and football is just a totally different animal. Theres way more factors that can change the outcome of games.

[insidious301]

I've been using comparisons from other sports my entire time on ISH, as that dishonest alt would know. Why? To show how warped the NBA discussion is because it is geared to suit one player. Stuff that would be relevant in any other context suddenly doesn't matter because it is inconvenient to the media's darling.

The prime example is longevity. In every GOAT list in every sport longevity is a major factor (yet another key point brought up in favor of Brady). Yet when it comes to MJ suddenly it doesn't matter.

For reference, Schumacher showed he could take an average team and turn it into a championship team (taking on the challenge of leaving a championship team). Others went to a championship team and kept them as a championship team. See the LeBron/MJ parallels?

NASCAR you have a similar thing as well. Earnhardt won with a variety of crew chiefs and with two teams. Petty, Johnson with the same CC and the same team (Gordon won 1 chip with a second CC but his results fell off markedly without Evernham outside of that one season). When someone says Earnhardt was the GOAT, they will bring this up. No one wets their pants over the point (if you are the GOAT, shouldn't you be able to dominate with more than one crew chief?). They acknowledge it but formulate counterarguments in other areas.

Why does this stuff matter? If your criteria is drafting/hiring someone for a random team, adaptability/portability/etc. matters.

Axe is a troll incapable of serious, honest debate.

Don't follow the NASCAR argument because I don't watch, but do get where you're coming from. In the next 24 hours, we'll hear LeBron=GOAT debate. I've been watching SportsCenter / NBA TV and not much discussion there however we'll see it rocking soon enough. And it will be deserved. LeBron is going to be 36 heading into his 18th season yet he is still the best in the world. Uncharted territory here, Roundball. Bradey-esque in fact.

[Roundball_Rock]

Who knows but Rockets had a chance. The bulls would beat the warriors with kd

How? The Bulls were a one man team whose second best player would be equal to the Warriors' fifth best player (per many MJ stans). :oldlol:


They'd have no problems with kd and the warriors just like they'd handle barkley and drexler or shaq and malone.

They didn't play the Warriors, though. They played the Blazers, Jazz, etc. Those teams nearly took the Bulls to 7. Are you saying if the Blazers added Barkley or Jazz Shaq those teams wouldn't become better than the Bulls? Possible but unlikely, assuming they mesh on those teams.


Mj and the bulls destroyed penny and shaq who at the time were a pretty great duo with a good supporting cast.

When they had 3 HOF. What do you expect?


And Joe was like 37 coming off of a serious injury when he went to kc and football is just a totally different animal.

Yeah, but he still had them in the AFC championship game and made the Pro Bowl. That matters. You guys are naïve if you think Brady failing in Tampa won't be a mark against him, especially compared to what Montana did.

I am comparing arguments and criteria, not sports per se. No player has a grip on the media like MJ does so no one else gets the contortions MJ gets to push them. They have to rely on actual arguments, not media worship.

Brady's longevity, ability to win in the salary cap era are marks in his favor.
Montana's ability to succeed with multiple coaches and even multiple teams are marks in his favor. If Brady can succeed in Tampa, that significantly weakens Montana's case.


Don't follow the NASCAR argument because I don't watch, but do get where you're coming from. In the next 24 hours, we'll hear LeBron=GOAT debate. I've been watching SportsCenter and NBA TV and not much discussion there however we'll see it rocking soon enough. And it will b deserved. LeBron is going to be 36 heading into his 18th season yet he is still the best in the world. Uncharted territory here, Roundball. Bradey-esque in fact.

For sure and the arguments for LeBron will be stuff like longevity, ability to succeed in different contexts, etc. We know the MJ counterarguments. Let's see the market share coming out of it. I still think MJ will have a healthy lead after this year but LeBron isn't done yet.

[AirBonner]

Depends. Do the Lakers get to face MJ level comp every year?

[3ball]

Do you guys really think pippen should get more shots in the 96' Finals when he's averaging 15 on 34%?

You want to give him MORE shots??..

Or what about the entire 96-98' Playoffs when he's averaging 17 on 41%?.. he should get MORE shots?

The point is that MJ had score a record percentage of team points (burden), record ppg, and record margin above 2nd option - all 6 rings were carry-jobs based on these metrics, while Lebron shares the scoring burden and other categories with teammates

[TheCorporation]

Damn, a 7th option outscoring John Stockton? :roll:

:roll::roll:

Cooked his ass right up :lol

[TheCorporation]

We need to make a new meme format for delusional baldan fans

"Jordan takes 30 shots per game. Wonders why Pippen didnt' score more."

:lol Shit is comical

[Roundball_Rock]

Do you guys not follow any other sports at all or the sports talk shows? One of the big arguments against Brady is that all his success (to date) came with the GOAT coach. Yet somehow the same logic isn't applied to Jordan, even from those who do it with Brady. In the Manning vs. Brady debate (which has died down but was the football debate until recently), Brady's Patriots teams remained good without him while Manning's teams were trash without him. Sound familiar? People don't live with blinders on. They notice one team going 11-5 and the other 2-14 in the same scenario.

If you give Jordan and LeBron the best team Jordan is the better bet to deliver but if you put them on a 25 win team LeBron is the better bet to take you deeper into the playoffs. Different skills. How you weigh them affects how you rank them

[insidious301]

I follow the NFL casually. Haven't been an avid fan in over 10 years. From what I know however the Brady/Belichick argument differs because of the "Pats System". Ironically similar to Duncan and Popovich/Spurs. Jordan wasn't a winner although he was already the best player before Phil. Brady on the other hand was with Belichick since day 1 and in his first superbowl wasn't close to the best qb. The whole "with and without" argument is a flawed way to debate. I say that because its not a 1 on 1 sport. Neither is the NBA. Unless you get a true replacement for said player and everything is equal in talent, you'll be arguing in circles.

[3ball]

We need to make a new meme format for delusional baldan fans

"Jordan takes 30 shots per game. Wonders why Pippen didnt' score more."

:lol Shit is comical
Do you guys really think pippen should get more shots in the 96' Finals when he's averaging 15 on 34%?

You want to give him MORE shots??..

Or what about the entire 96-98' Playoffs when he's averaging 17 on 41%?.. he should get MORE shots?

The point is that MJ had score a record percentage of team points (burden), record ppg, and record margin above 2nd option - all 6 rings were carry-jobs based on these metrics, while Lebron shares the scoring burden and other categories with teammates

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, hard to find perfect comps and Brady being with Belichick his entire career is a key difference. Most of the argument is if Brady was with a coach who wasn't the GOAT he wouldn't have 6 rings (coach who also was the GM). You can say the same about MJ and Jackson (MJ put up individual stats but didn't win outside the triangle system that forced ball movement). The other question is how much of it was Brady and how much the coach? How they do apart from each other will answer that. The existing sample we have for Belichick in NE is pretty good sans Brady. We know Jackson won without Jordan but not vice versa.

Brady also won with a changing cast of characters around him. Jordan's winning came with Pippen around the entire time (granted that covers almost his entire prime). When Pippen left, Jordan retired instead of defending the chip without Pip.


Agreed these are team sports but this stuff will always come up as long as there are people who will say Jordan, Brady, etc. won all by themselves. Notice how often we hear "Jordan is 6-0." We never hear the Chicago Bulls are 6-0.

[3ball]

Yeah, hard to find perfect comps and Brady being with Belichick his entire career is a key difference. Most of the argument is if Brady was with a coach who wasn't the GOAT he wouldn't have 6 rings (coach who also was the GM). You can say the same about MJ and Jackson (MJ put up individual stats but didn't win outside the triangle system that forced ball movement). The other question is how much of it was Brady and how much the coach? How they do apart from each other will answer that. The existing sample we have for Belichick in NE is pretty good sans Brady. We know Jackson won without Jordan but not vice versa.

Agreed these are team sports but this stuff will always come up as long as there are people who will say Jordan, Brady, etc. won all by themselves. Notice how often we hear "Jordan is 6-0." We never hear the Chicago Bulls are 6-0.

Thread cliffs

Jordan's on-ball/off-ball and elite shooting skillset gave teams a higher long run championship expectation by allowing the best brand of ball (ball movement) that achieves the best Finals records..

Otoh, Lebron's weaker-shooting ball-dominance and imposition of spot-up roles stalls teammates, thereby requiring ready-made stars, aka talent-based winning.. obviously, talent-based winning and weaker ball movement has a lower expectation than a combination of talent and the best brand

[TheCorporation]

Do you guys really think pippen should get more shots in the 96' Finals when he's averaging 15 on 34%?

You want to give him MORE shots??..

Or what about the entire 96-98' Playoffs when he's averaging 17 on 41%?.. he should get MORE shots?

The point is that MJ had score a record percentage of team points (burden), record ppg, and record margin above 2nd option - all 6 rings were carry-jobs based on these metrics, while Lebron shares the scoring burden and other categories with teammates

MJ turned him into a spot up shooter and kept him out of rhythm amirite?

[3ball]

MJ turned him into a spot up shooter and kept him out of rhythm amirite?

Pippen's assists increased alongside MJ because MJ let him handle the rock.. remember, MJ could produce off-ball and had the shooting touch.. otoh Lebron's dribbling lowers teammates' assists, like Wade, Kyrie, Mo, Love, Bosh, etc..

Ultimately, lebron's imposition of spot-up roles stalls teammates, thus requiring ready-made stars, aka talent-based winning.. talent-based winning has lower championship expectation than a combination of talent and the best brand/strategy

[TheCorporation]

Pippen's assists increased alongside MJ because MJ let him handle the rock.. remember, MJ could produce off-ball and had the shooting touch.. otoh Lebron's dribbling lowers teammates' assists, like Wade, Kyrie, Mo, Love, Bosh, etc.. his imposition of spot-up roles stalls teammates, this requiring ready-made stars, aka talent-based winning.. talent-based winning has lower championship expectation than a combination of talent and the best brand/strategy

Do you count the WNBA 3-pointer era as "modern"

How about banned zone defense? Yikes

Zone was banned up until 2002 when it was finally unbanned. Should that be the modern era?

[3ball]

Do you count the WNBA 3-pointer era as "modern"

How about banned zone defense? Yikes

Zone was banned up until 2002 when it was finally unbanned. Should that be the modern era?

Notice how the league ppg, orth, and efficiency declined with the wnba line because it was closer, aka less spacing and easier contest all shots

3-point efficiency increased a lot with the wnba line, so you know that 2-point efficiency plummeted (no spacing)

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ turned him into a spot up shooter and kept him out of rhythm amirite?

SouBeachTalents ripped him to shreds by pulling real time quotes from reporters on the 98' series. Check it out. http://http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)/page11 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)/page11)


Do you count the WNBA 3-pointer era as "modern"

How about banned zone defense? Yikes

Zone was banned up until 2002 when it was finally unbanned. Should that be the modern era?

Or international players. Or the 3ball being a major part. The game today is more different than when MJ played than MJ's era was to Kareem's yet MJ fans act like Kareem played in the stone age.

[3ball]

SouBeachTalents ripped him to shreds by pulling real time quotes from reporters on the 98' series. Check it out. http://http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)/page11 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)/page11)



Or international players. Or the 3ball being a major part. The game today is more different than when MJ played than MJ's era was to Kareem's yet MJ fans act like Kareem played in the stone age.

pippen was never talked about and you're misrepresenting the few times that he got an obligatory pat on the back - reporters couldn't wait for him to ACTUALLY dominate, so they waited for him to get Paul George numbers (above pippen's norm)

Ultimately, pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals and 19 on 42% in 6 Finals... O/6 in FMVP.. so Jordan won 6 carry-job, 1-man team.. if AD averaged 19 on 42%, the Lakers would lose the 1st round

[Gray GOAT]

It's very simple. No Pip? No chip. No AD? 3x FMVP.

[Axe]

So scoring is your only argument but not that much about other stuff.

[3ball]

It's very simple. No Pip? No chip. No AD? 3x FMVP.

Lebron needs 2 pippen's (2 stars) to win, or a top 5 player sidekick

aka manufactured fraud

[TheCorporation]

SouBeachTalents ripped him to shreds by pulling real time quotes from reporters on the 98' series. Check it out. http://http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)/page11 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)/page11)



Or international players. Or the 3ball being a major part. The game today is more different than when MJ played than MJ's era was to Kareem's yet MJ fans act like Kareem played in the stone age.

What what a slaughter

https://i.postimg.cc/G2CwnqJj/Sou-Beach-Slaughters.png

Pippen was the difference maker doing all the intangibles that MJ stans don't appreciate.

MJ himself said it. So did Stockton. So did Phil, and the list goes on.

[TheCorporation]

Lebron needs 2 pippen's (2 stars) to win, or a top 5 player sidekick

aka manufactured fraud

https://i.postimg.cc/NFMHF6w2/7463_goat.png

Record

[3ball]

What what a slaughter

https://i.postimg.cc/G2CwnqJj/Sou-Beach-Slaughters.png

Pippen was the difference maker doing all the intangibles that MJ stans don't appreciate.

MJ himself said it. So did Stockton. So did Phil, and the list goes on.

No, pippen was never talked about and round ball is misrepresenting the few times that he got an obligatory pat on the back - reporters couldn't wait for him to ACTUALLY dominate, so they waited for him to get Paul George numbers (above pippen's norm)

Ultimately, pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals and 19 on 42% in 6 Finals... O/6 in FMVP.. so Jordan won 6 carry-job, 1-man team.. if AD averaged 19 on 42%, the Lakers would lose the 1st round

[Gray GOAT]

Lebron needs 2 pippen's (2 stars) to win, or a top 5 player sidekick

aka manufactured fraud

The damage control is beautiful to watch. The realisation of LeBron truly being the greatest to ever do it is kicking in.

[3ball]

The damage control is beautiful to watch. The realisation of LeBron truly being the greatest to ever do it is kicking in.

Facts gonna facts

Lebron has an inferior career because his skillset prevents the best strategy (ball movement)

The guy runs a brand of harden-ball and you wonder why he's 4/10?