Colin Cowherd: "MJ needed Pippen, LeBron just needs a ball"

[Drygon]

The full script behind Colin Cowherd's statement


“In Miami year two – title. Went back to Cleveland year two – title. Came to Los Angeles year two – title. That’s what he does. Michael [Jordan] needed Scottie Pippen, LeBron just needs a ball,” Cowherd said.

“LeBron did not go to Golden State or to a stacked team that won a title without him. He went to three places and had to elevate each. Physically and emotionally and structurally.”

He also compared LeBron with Michael Jordan, who needed Scottie Pippen to win titles, per Cowherd. On the other hand, James was and is able to win titles with any team or coach.

“Michael Jordan needed Scottie Pippen. Michael Jordan needed Phil Jackson. LeBron needs the damn ball. He doesn’t need a system. He doesn’t need a coach. He doesn’t need a Robin. He had a small Robin [Kyrie Irving]. He had wing Robin [Dwyane Wade]. He had a big Robin [Anthony Davis].”

https://twitter.com/ColinCowherd/status/1315825968318013440

[Drygon]

Michael Jordan needed Pippen and Lebron just needs...

- Dwyane Wade

- Chris Bosh

- Kyrie Irving

- Kevin Love

- Anthony Davis

[hold this L]

He needed AD to even make the playoffs, but Colin is known for being a consistent idiot.

[ThatCoolKid]

:lol Cowherd is on fire these days. No pip no chip!

[tpols]

What a joke... Pippen absolutely never had a playoff run like AD did this year.

This is why 3ball makes threads about the media lying and distorting truth to promote a fake news agenda. They do it for things outside sports a lot too.

[TheGoatest]

Michael Jordan needed Pippen and Lebron just needs...

- Dwyane Wade

- Chris Bosh

- Kyrie Irving

- Kevin Love

- Anthony Davis

LeBron won without each and every one of those. Multiple times.
Jordan never won without Pippen. Once. Actually, he never won a playoff series without Pippen either. But that's another story.

[RogueBorg]

LeBron won without each and every one of those. Multiple times.
Jordan never won without Pippen. Once. Actually, he never won a playoff series without Pippen either. But that's another story.

It took 3 years for Jordan to mold Pippen.

Wade had already won a chip before LBJ. It took DWade to mold LBJ into a champion.

[theballerFKA Ace]

Lebron had Lonzo BALL last year so what happened mang?

[SouBeachTalents]

It always amazes me how people consistently take what guys like Cowherd & Skip say seriously. They intentionally say provocative things to get ratings and start discussions, he was 100% banking on people making threads about him saying this today

[8Ball]

LeBron Ball.

Preach to the younger generation the TRUTH. Every day.

[MaxPlayer]

It always amazes me how people consistently take what guys like Cowherd & Skip say seriously. They intentionally say provocative things to get ratings and start discussions, he was 100% banking on people making threads about him saying this today

Exactly. They are (very) well paid trolls. Bayless in particular doesn't even really try to hide this fact.

[Roundball_Rock]

Michael Jordan needed Pippen and Lebron just needs...

- Dwyane Wade

- Chris Bosh

- Kyrie Irving

- Kevin Love

- Anthony Davis

LeBron was in the finals with none of those players...Jordan never came close to the finals w/out Pippen.

[hold this L]

LeBron was in the finals with none of those players...Jordan never came close to the finals w/out Pippen.
How many attempts did Jordan have without Pippen?

[guy]

LeBron was in the finals with none of those players...Jordan never came close to the finals w/out Pippen.

Even YOU can't seriously buy this as a legitimate take right? :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah, Lebron didnt need AD, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh or Love to win titles.

Just a "ball" :lol

Someone tell Cowderp nobody with a brain is buying that malarkey.

[TheGoatest]

It took 3 years for Jordan to mold Pippen.

Wade had already won a chip before LBJ. It took DWade to mold LBJ into a champion.

Wade won a championship in 2006.
Then Wade and his Heat had by far the worst record in the league in 2008.
Which one of those two years is closer to 2010, the year LeBron arrived? 2006 or 2008?
LeBron rescued Wade from the abyss by coming to the Heat.

[dazzer87]

Michael Jordan needed Pippen and Lebron just needs...

- Dwyane Wade

- Chris Bosh

- Kyrie Irving

- Kevin Love

- Anthony Davis

and what did AD average in this year finals? 25+ on 50%FG/90FT% and 40% from 3s............. Must be nice having that as your 2nd option..........:lol

[theman93]

It took 3 years for Jordan to mold Pippen.

Wade had already won a chip before LBJ. It took DWade to mold LBJ into a champion.

Wow you just nuked his pour soul from orbit. GG.

[TheGoatest]

:roll: @ Kyrie & Kevin Love

Cavs record in the 13 games LeBron missed in the 2014-15 season: 3-10
Cavs record in the 6 games LeBron missed in the 2015-16 season: 1-5
Cavs record in the 8 games LeBron missed in the 2016-17 season: 0-8

Cavs record overall in the 27 games LeBron missed in the 3 seasons LeBron, Kyrie and Love played together: 4-23

Kyrie & Love = The Lottery Brothers

[theman93]

Wade won a championship in 2006.
Then Wade and his Heat had by far the worst record in the league in 2008.
Which one of those two years is closer to 2010, the year LeBron arrived? 2006 or 2008?
LeBron rescued Wade from the abyss by coming to the Heat.

Why are you referencing 2008 when Lebron joined the Heat in 2011? 2010 should be the reference, don't be retarded. 47-35 is not the abyss.

[TheGoatest]

Why are you referencing 2008 when Lebron joined the Heat in 2011? 2010 should be the reference, don't be retarded. 47-35 is not the abyss.

Why are you referencing 2006 and conveniently avoiding to reference 2008 when claiming that Wade "taught" LeBron how to win?

[STATUTORY]

the very man who started the whole superteam era, just needed a "ball" :roll:

fake news media personalities willing to say anything to up bran

[Nash]

Michael Jordan needed Pippen and Lebron just needs...

- Dwyane Wade

- Chris Bosh

- Kyrie Irving

- Kevin Love

- Anthony Davis

Wade - old, had half a knee left
bosh - didn't need him 2012
Kyrie - virus
Kevin Love - basically Kokuc
AD - Sure, I give you that one

[Roundball_Rock]

How many attempts did Jordan have without Pippen?

5 (he was runner up MVP in one of those years). How many did LeBron have when you exclude five LeBron teammates (Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, Davis--all implicitly being put on the same plane, as if Love's 9/7/1 was the same as what AD did)? To the extent the question is unfair, Jordan's own fans are very quick to ask what Pippen won without Jordan. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

A lot of people are making hay about LeBron not winning when you remove 5 (5 :oldlol: ) teammates but the fact is he was in the finals and two ECF with none of these players. Regarding Love and Bosh, we saw the Cavs make the finals with Love out most of the playoffs (he played 4 first round games) and the Heat with Bosh out for most of the ECF/ECSF. What happened when Rodman or Grant weren't around?

If you use 5 you can erase basically entire careers. Let's take Sam Jones, Cousy, and Havlicek for Russell--3 players. What's left?

[Spurs m8]

And this is why this loser is unlistenable.

Imagine thinking this.

Imagine leaving the collusions out

And all the finals losses.

This type of dumb media is what made the stans so retarded in the first place.

Dumb leading dumber

[3ball]

.
If lebron just needs a ball, then why didn't he stay with the 2019 roster and win with them?.

Heck, Ingram is now a star.. So why didn't Lebron develop the 2019 Laker roster?

It's because that's the harder path, that's why.. it's much easier to land on the Year 1 league favorite (11', 15'), or acquire Duncan, I mean AD..

If we were to imagine the easiest path, it would be landing on the Year 1 league favorite, as opposed to developing the 19' Lakers into a champion (like MJ did with the bulls)

Lebron skips all the team development stages, including dealing with young teammates or old teammates... he doesn't have to develop an Ingram or Pippen, and doesn't have to deal with aging players like Pippen sucking during the 96-98' Playoffs (17 on 41%), or Rodman (4/8 averages for entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in 98' Playoffs)..

Lebron doesn't have to deal with this.... Instead, he refreshes his cast every 4 years with the hottest prime studs the league has to offer.. it's WEAK.. and everyone knows it

And not everyone does it.. lebron started this trend of hopping around and is by far the biggest participant.. in reality, only KD stacked the deck like lebron by shutting down the league for 2017 and 2018.. but this was just revenge for the Heatles doing the same from 11-13'

Ultimately, you can't sell the story that it's harder to acquire AD, Wade, Kyrie, Love and Bosh, than not.

One more thing - lebron's talent-seeking avoids having to be actually COACHED into a system.. he can just run the suboptimal bron-ball because the extra talent is there to offset suboptimal brand.. and yes, ball-dominance has a lower championship expectation than ball movement, everything else being equal.. a brand that's bad at winning on the Finals level kills championship expectation compared to other greats/skillsets that cater to a more optimal style (ball movement)

[Indian guy]

Wade, Irving, AD....

LeBron had a good/great #2 on each of the teams he won a championship with. And there's nothing wrong with that. Almost nobody wins without a great #2.

Honestly, I get dumber every time I listen to Cowherd. He's just shockingly clueless about basketball. Just yesterday he was talking about how he couldn't understand why people hated LeBron. Then went on to say KD joined GS but nobody hates him :oldlol:

[FireDavidKahn]

Forget being 1-9 without Pippen...

JORDAN NEVER HAD A WINNING SEASON WITHOUT PIPPEN.

0/5

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[FireDavidKahn]

:facepalm:

Babyboi cannot deal with FACTS

Your boi had 5 attempts to have a winning season without Pippen and FAILED

[3ball]

Wade, Irving, AD....

LeBron had a good/great #2 on each of the teams he won a championship with. And there's nothing wrong with that. Almost nobody wins without a great #2.

Honestly, I get dumber every time I listen to Cowherd. He's just shockingly clueless about basketball. Just yesterday he was talking about how he couldn't understand why people hated LeBron. Then went on to say KD joined GS but nobody hates him :oldlol:

Pippen wasn't a "great" #2 during the 2nd three-peat

Or the 93' Playoffs (16.9 PER... that's worse than Wade 18.6 in 2014 Playoffs)

And only pippen's poor play caused the 92' ECSF to go 7, or the 98' ECF

Every close series was pippen's fault

[3ball]

Forget being 1-9 without Pippen...

JORDAN NEVER HAD A WINNING SEASON WITHOUT PIPPEN.

0/5





Pippen sucked bro..

Look at his stats in each series... Complete trash - worse than Paul George most of the time..

Pippen is one of the most overrated players ever ...

* 16/6/5 career averages with weak efficiency

*17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' playoffs...

*12 on 42% vs the 88-90' Pistons

*19 on 42% in 6 Finals

*16 on 40% in many series including... 90' ECF.. 92' ECSF.. 93' 1st Rd.. 96' ECSF.. 96' Finals.. 97 1st Rd.. 97' ECF.. 98' ECF.. 98' Finals


^^^ lebron never won a Finals or beat any top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick

Imagine if AD got those stats - the Lakers would lose in the 1st Rd

The reality is that Jordan nearly beat the 89' Pistons with Pippen getting 10 on 40%, so he would've won that year with anyone OTHER than pippen.. jordan never had a bad series, so anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's fault (see the many series listed above)

(and Phil wasn't there in 89' when MJ nearly made the Finals with a low seed - Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals and never won without Jordan or his clone.. aka the triangle required a goat bailout artist to be a great offense - it had no real success without one as NY found out).

[FireDavidKahn]

Pippen sucked bro..

Look at his stats in each series... Complete trash - worse than Paul George most of the time..

Pippen is one of the most overrated players ever ...

* 16/6/5 career averages with weak efficiency

*17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' playoffs...

*12 on 42% vs the 88-90' Pistons

*19 on 42% in 6 Finals

*16 on 40% in many series including... 90' ECF.. 92' ECSF.. 93' 1st Rd.. 96' ECSF.. 96' Finals.. 97 1st Rd.. 97' ECF.. 98' ECF.. 98' Finals


^^^ lebron never won a Finals or beat any top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick

Imagine if AD got those stats - the Lakers would lose in the 1st Rd

The reality is that Jordan nearly beat the 89' Pistons with Pippen getting 10 on 40%, so he would've won that year with anyone OTHER than pippen.. jordan never had a bad series, so anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's fault (see the many series listed above)

(and Phil wasn't there in 89' when MJ nearly made the Finals with a low seed - Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals and never won without Jordan or his clone.. aka the triangle required a goat bailout artist to be a great offense - it had no real success without one as NY found out).

But stats were MUCH harder to get back then.

To properly convert you gotta up it by about 50%

[Ainosterhaspie]

Pippen wasn't a "great" #2 during the 2nd three-peat

Or the 93' Playoffs (16.9 PER... that's worse than Wade 18.6 in 2014 Playoffs)

And only pippen's poor play caused the 92' ECSF to go 7, or the 98' ECF

Every close series was pippen's fault

Nope, that series went 7 because when Jordan had a chance to win it in six, he literally fell on his face.

https://media.giphy.com/media/JSemy1zGoby2EsaNgM/giphy.gif

[Spurs m8]

Imagine watching both play and still being so biased that you think LeBron is better.

How embarrassing...no wonder no one in real life says it

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn, Pippen sucked in the second threepeat but was #2 in all-NBA voting (behind MJ) in 96' and 5th in MVP. In other words, prime Pippen was ahead of prime Malone in all-NBA and MVP voting.

If Pippen sucked, how bad was MJ's comp then? Those 6 rings can't be taken seriously if the best player on your best finals comp can't beat out a player who "sucked" while in the middle of his prime (Malone won MVP the next season). :oldlol:

MJ stans are making a strong case that MJ's era was a joke where Iggy (the modern player 1-9ball and his disciples most equate Pippen to) would be ahead of Malone or Barkley in all-NBA and MVP in multiple years. In this era, Iggy is a #4/#5 option on a contender.

[FireDavidKahn]

Damn, Pippen sucked in the second threepeat but was #2 in all-NBA voting (behind MJ) in 96' and 5th in MVP. In other words, prime Pippen was ahead of prime Malone in all-NBA and MVP voting.

If Pippen sucked, how bad was MJ's comp then? Those 6 rings can't be taken seriously if the best player on your best finals comp can't beat out a player who "sucked" while in the middle of his prime (Malone won MVP the next season). :oldlol:

MJ stans are making a strong case that MJ's era was a joke where Iggy (the modern player 1-9ball and his disciples most equate Pippen to) would be ahead of Malone or Barkley in all-NBA and MVP in multiple years. In this era, Iggy is a #4/#5 option on a contender.

3ball said Larry Hughes was better then prime Pippen:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball said Larry Hughes was better then prime Pippen:roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheMan]

Michael Jordan needed Pippen and Lebron just needs...

- Dwyane Wade

- Chris Bosh

- Kyrie Irving

- Kevin Love

- Anthony Davis
I'll take Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, Allen and Davis please

[nineiron]

I'll take Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, Allen and Davis please

all day, everyday.

every one of those players have a higher career PER than Pippen.

[TheMan]

This Cowherd is an absolute idiot, he supposedly is a football expert and this dumfukk actually said that he would take Mark Sanchez over Aaron Rodgers LMAO

Is Sanchez still in the NFL? Meanwhile Rodgers has had a GOAT career. :lol Apparently he is even more clueless when it comes to hoops

[FireDavidKahn]

all day, everyday.

every one of those players have a higher career PER than Pippen.

The ironic thing is that your ilk loves to bash this era as so easy and ripe for stat padding and yet use those same stats to try and prove they are superior to past era's

You can't make it up!

:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

The ironic thing is that your ilk loves to bash this era as so easy and ripe for stat padding and yet use those same stats to try and prove they are superior to past era's

You can't make it up!

:roll:

:lol

Moreover, if, say, Irving>Pippen that is damning as to how weak MJ's era was (if you subscribe to that line of "thinking"). Irving can't even get one 5th place MVP vote in this era while Pippen was finishing ahead of prime Malone, prime Barkley in all-NBA, MVP in multiple years in the 90's. :oldlol:

No one makes the case for MJ's era being weak better than MJ stans themselves. They don't even grasp it.

[theman93]

Why are you referencing 2006 and conveniently avoiding to reference 2008 when claiming that Wade "taught" LeBron how to win?

Because Wade was already a proven champion and lifted Miami out of the abyss in both 2009 and 2010 by himself. Don't be an idiot.

[Roundball_Rock]

Because Wade was already a proven champion and lifted Miami out of the abyss in both 2009 and 2010 by himself. Don't be an idiot.

Lifted them to first round defeats? Miami lost in the first round in 07', 09', 10' and missed the playoffs (15 wins) in 08'. Where is the "lift"? Miami was mediocre before LeBron got there. Wade was great but he didn't lift them like LeBron did with similar "casts" in Cleveland. The difference between a GOAT candidate and a top 25 AT player.

[TheMan]

LeBron was in the finals with none of those players...Jordan never came close to the finals w/out Pippen.

LeBron made the Finals with none of those players in a historically weak EC (stats prove this), move LBJ and those Cavs and they get curbstomped by the '86 and '87 Celtics too. You know this but act dumb. The East was so bad, the Spurs exposed them in a sweep. Sweeps don't happen in the NBA Finals too often, only when one conference is much stronger then the other...or an all time great team that destroys everyone. That wasn't even the best version of the Spurs either.

[nineiron]

:lol

Moreover, if, say, Irving>Pippen that is damning as to how weak MJ's era was (if you subscribe to that line of "thinking"). Irving can't even get one 5th place MVP vote in this era while Pippen was finishing ahead of prime Malone, prime Barkley in all-NBA, MVP in multiple years in the 90's. :oldlol:

No one makes the case for MJ's era being weak better than MJ stans themselves. They don't even grasp it.


that's bc mvp voting is just that, a vote. playing with MJ made Pippen 'seem' like he was a better player than he actually was.

his career PER shows how over rated he is.

[Shooter]

Imagine watching both play and still being so biased that you think LeBron is better.

How embarrassing...no wonder no one in real life says it
Mike needed a perfectly crafted system. He needed it tailor made to win. Mike won because of a system.

He needed to have an elite 2 way player at small forward, No Pip? NO CHIP. He needed the legendary GOAT head coach. He had to play in Chicago. He had to play under no legal zone defense.

Give LBJ the worst front office that hadn't won a championship in 50 years and he will find a way to win. Stick Lebron in Cleveland, Miami, Los Angeles. It doesn't matter. LeBron's number two option star can be a point guard like Kyrie, a shooting guard like Dwayne Wade, or a big man like Anthony Davis. Again, it doesn't matter, he always finds a way to win. And don't forget, Ty Lue is no Phil Jackson.

Michael needed a tailor made, perfectly crafted system to get out of the 1st round.

LeBron just needed a ball.

[Roundball_Rock]

Any conference LeBron is in is automatically deemed "weak." Those claims can't be taken seriously.

Who were the Bulls' great challengers in the East from 1991-1998 BTW? MJ stans make it seem like there was parity in the conference. There wasn't. The Bulls were head and shoulders above the pack year after year. Even without MJ they were 1 game from the #1 seed going into the final weekend despite Pippen, Grant missing 23 games.


playing with MJ made Pippen 'seem' like he was a better player than he actually was.

his career PER shows how over rated he is.

Psst...that is 1-9ball! :lol

Thanks for conceding Pippen was considered better than prime Malone, prime Barkley in some years, 1-9ball. :cheers:

[theman93]

Lifted them to first round defeats? Miami lost in the first round in 07', 09', 10' and missed the playoffs (15 wins) in 08'. Where is the "lift"? Miami was mediocre before LeBron got there. Wade was great but he didn't lift them like LeBron did with similar "casts" in Cleveland. The difference between a GOAT candidate and a top 25 AT player.

15 wins is the abyss. 43 wins the next year, and 47 wins the following year is not. So no, Lebron did not lift Miami out of the 2008 abyss as he claimed, Wade already did that.

[Roundball_Rock]

15 wins is the abyss. 43 wins the next year, and 47 wins the following year is not. So no, Lebron did not lift Miami out of the 2008 abyss as he claimed, Wade already did that.

Wade was there for the 15-67 season...10-41 (16 win pace) when Wade played.

[TheMan]

Roundball Rock, simple question, do the 07 Cavs advance past the 86 or 87 Boston Celtics to the Finals...simple yes or no will suffice.

[theman93]

Wade was there for the 15-67 season...Wade went 10-41.

Yup, and then elevated his level of play the following 2 seasons.

2008 - 21.5 PER and didn't make any All-NBA Team or All-Defensive Team, and 0 MVP votes

2009 - 30.4 PER, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd All-Defensive Team, 3rd in MVP voting

2010 - 28.0 PER, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd All-Defensive Team, 5th in MVP voting

[AirBonner]

LeBron won with Ty Lue as the HC. No one else is doing that

[theman93]

Yup, and then elevated his level of play the following 2 seasons.

2008 - 21.5 PER and didn't make any All-NBA Team or All-Defensive Team, and 0 MVP votes

2009 - 30.4 PER, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd All-Defensive Team, 3rd in MVP voting

2010 - 28.0 PER, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd All-Defensive Team, 5th in MVP voting

So it's confirmed Lebron didn't lift Miami out of the abyss, Wade already did.

[TheMan]

So it's confirmed Lebron didn't lift Miami out of the abyss, Wade already did.

Did you forget to log in to your other account?

[Spurs m8]

So can we get an answer as to why he couldn't get a ring with "just a ball" before he colluded?

Simple question

[Stanley Kobrick]

no dip no chips

[theman93]

Did you forget to log in to your other account?

Which one would that be?

[theman93]

So can we get an answer as to why he couldn't get a ring with "just a ball" before he colluded?

Simple question

Just a ball wasn't enough.

Needed a top 20 player of all time, a perennial all-star, and Pat Riley's proven dynasty system and environment. And the craziest part? He still lost twice with all of that.

[bullettooth]

Just a ball wasn't enough.

Needed a top 20 player of all time, a perennial all-star, and Pat Riley's proven dynasty system and environment. And the craziest part? He still lost twice with all of that.

He also got beat so bad, it was the largest margin of loss in NBA finals history. It's ok, that record has been broken since... again by LeBron a few years later, LOL.

[Spurs m8]

Mike needed a perfectly crafted system. He needed it tailor made to win. Mike won because of a system.

He needed to have an elite 2 way player at small forward, No Pip? NO CHIP. He needed the legendary GOAT head coach. He had to play in Chicago. He had to play under no legal zone defense.

Give LBJ the worst front office that hadn't won a championship in 50 years and he will find a way to win. Stick Lebron in Cleveland, Miami, Los Angeles. It doesn't matter. LeBron's number two option star can be a point guard like Kyrie, a shooting guard like Dwayne Wade, or a big man like Anthony Davis. Again, it doesn't matter, he always finds a way to win. And don't forget, Ty Lue is no Phil Jackson.

Michael needed a tailor made, perfectly crafted system to get out of the 1st round.

LeBron just needed a ball.

So why couldn't he bring a chip to Cleveland before colluding?
Why did it take bringing in Love whilst having a near 30ppg finals scorer in Kyrie?

Why couldn't the Bulls win a 4th in a row as soon as MJ left (94)?

[Stanley Kobrick]

mills m8, snaggletooth and myself are upset right now.

[WhiteKyrie]

What a joke... Pippen absolutely never had a playoff run like AD did this year.

This is why 3ball makes threads about the media lying and distorting truth to promote a fake news agenda. They do it for things outside sports a lot too.
Ding ding

[theman93]

He also got beat so bad, it was the largest margin of loss in NBA finals history. It's ok, that record has been broken since... again by LeBron a few years later, LOL.

The 2 biggest Finals blowouts in NBA history, and the absolute worst shrink job ever for an all-time great. Can't be the greatest with that. This debate's long been over.

[TheGoatest]

Yup, and then elevated his level of play the following 2 seasons.

2008 - 21.5 PER and didn't make any All-NBA Team or All-Defensive Team, and 0 MVP votes

2009 - 30.4 PER, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd All-Defensive Team, 3rd in MVP voting

2010 - 28.0 PER, 1st Team All-NBA, 2nd All-Defensive Team, 5th in MVP voting

Wade and his Heat did worse in the season before LeBron joined as well as the season after the season LeBron left the Heat than Pippen and Bulls did in the season after Jordan left the Bulls.

[WhiteKyrie]

no dip no chips
You meant Pip? But this works too :oldlol:

[Stanley Kobrick]

You meant Pip? But this works too :oldlol:
no i mean no salsa no chips. unless doritos

[And1AllDay]

bran haters use stats to prop up bosh kyrie, ad and kevin love and wade but then use stats to bring bran down

WHICH IS IT :oldlol:

lefam: "wade cant escape 1st round 2007-2010 4 years in a row. Bosh Kyrie and Love never got out of the 1st round before bran. ad never won shit"

the bran haters: Dem PERz doe

:biggums:

[theman93]

Wade and his Heat did worse in the season before LeBron joined as well as the season after the season LeBron left the Heat than Pippen and Bulls did in the season after Jordan left the Bulls.

I literally have no idea what you just said. But regardless, bringing up Jordan is completely irrelevant to Lebron somehow being responsible for lifting the 2008 Heat out of the abyss. Wade already did that by himself if you actually watched basketball.

[TheGoatest]

I literally have no idea what you just said. But regardless, bringing up Jordan is completely irrelevant to Lebron somehow being responsible for lifting the 2008 Heat out of the abyss. Wade already did that by himself if you actually watched basketball.

Let me break it down for you:

1993-94 Chicago Bulls > 2009-10 Miami Heat
1993-94 Chicago Bulls > 2014-15 Miami Heat

Both in the regular season as well as the playoffs, which the 2014-15 Heat didn't even make. Not to mention the fact that the '94 Bulls playoff run ended on one of the all-time controversial calls.

Wade "lifted" the Heat to the heights of mediocrity of a near 1st round sweep. Couldn't even beat the random-ass Atlanta Hawks in the first round the season before.
LeBron lifted the Heat to 4 straight NBA finals, 2 of which were won.

[theman93]

Let me break it down for you:

1993-94 Chicago Bulls > 2009-10 Miami Heat
1993-94 Chicago Bulls > 2014-15 Miami Heat

Both in the regular season as well as the playoffs, which the 2014-15 Heat didn't even make. Not to mention the fact that the '94 Bulls playoff run ended on one of the all-time controversial calls.

Wade "lifted" the Heat to the heights of mediocrity of a near 1st round sweep. Couldn't even beat the random-ass Atlanta Hawks in the first round the season before.
LeBron lifted the Heat to 4 straight NBA finals, 2 of which were won.

Nice selective amnesia. :facepalm

The 95 Bulls were the definition of mediocrity with a 34-31 record before MJ came back. On pace for an equally mediocre win % as the 09 Heat.

Wade's 2010 Heat and Pippen's 94 Bulls both lost to the eventual Eastern Conference champion in the playoffs. So that's a wash.

MJ lifted the Bulls to his 2nd 3-peat. 3-0>2-2.

Next.

[k 96]

Re: Colin Cowherd: "MJ needed Pippen, LeBron just needs a ball"

Colin Cowturd really meant to say: "MJ needed Pippen, LeBron just needs ESPN/NBA to rig all of his championships. Including
the lock out shortened season, and the Trump virus shortened season"

LEHYPE 4 of 10 JAMES

[And1AllDay]

Re: Colin Cowherd: "MJ needed Pippen, LeBron just needs a ball"

Colin Cowturd really meant to say: "MJ needed Pippen, LeBron just needs ESPN/NBA to rig all of his championships. Including
the lock out shortened season, and the Trump virus shortened season"

LEHYPE 4 of 10 JAMES


bram only made 10 finals?! weeeak era!

mike made 6 vs milkmen!

[k 96]

bram only made 10 finals?! Weeeak era!

Mike made 6 vs milkmen!

4 of 10

[TheGoatest]

Nice selective amnesia. :facepalm

The 95 Bulls were the definition of mediocrity with a 34-31 record before MJ came back. On pace for an equally mediocre win % as the 09 Heat.

Wade's 2010 Heat and Pippen's 94 Bulls both lost to the eventual Eastern Conference champion in the playoffs. So that's a wash.

MJ lifted the Bulls to his 2nd 3-peat. 3-0>2-2.

Next.

Wait a minute, Jordan came back during the summer/offseason of 1995, and not during the 1994-95 season itself? That's news to me.
This guy wearing 45 here was not Jordan?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TemptingFlusteredCheetah-size_restricted.gif
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV_Ic2eXsAAgjAR.jpg

Dennis Rodman lifted them to the next three-peat. Even though he had Pippen, Jordan always needed a third wheel in Grant/Rodman as well.

[paksat]

what happened to his ball last season with no hall of fame player to carry him?

[LAmbruh]

Wait a minute, Jordan came back during the summer/offseason of 1995, and not during the 1994-95 season itself? That's news to me.
This guy wearing 45 here was not Jordan?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TemptingFlusteredCheetah-size_restricted.gif
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV_Ic2eXsAAgjAR.jpg

Dennis Rodman lifted them to the next three-peat. Even though he had Pippen, Jordan always needed a third wheel in Grant/Rodman as well.

damn, slayed

[Spurs m8]

what happened to his ball last season with no hall of fame player to carry him?

I think this is the part the stans pretend he was injured for ages, even though when he activated playoff mode early they were still easily in the hunt for a spot.

He failed in massive fashion without another hall of famer....the bron way

[TheGoatest]

Roundball Rock, simple question, do the 07 Cavs advance past the 86 or 87 Boston Celtics to the Finals...simple yes or no will suffice.

The 07 Cavs would've definitely had a better record than 40-42 and avoided the Celtics in the first round in a season where two teams with 0 all-stars (Bucks and Pacers) had a higher seeding than Jordan's Bulls.
The 07 Cavs with a 22 year-old LeBron would've definitely beaten the 85 Milwaukee Bucks that beat a 22 year-old Jordan in the first round.

[theman93]

Wait a minute, Jordan came back during the summer/offseason of 1995, and not during the 1994-95 season itself? That's news to me.
This guy wearing 45 here was not Jordan?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TemptingFlusteredCheetah-size_restricted.gif
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV_Ic2eXsAAgjAR.jpg

Dennis Rodman lifted them to the next three-peat. Even though he had Pippen, Jordan always needed a third wheel in Grant/Rodman as well.

Ahh another classic shifting of the goal posts. So it’s confirmed that no, Pippen did not lift the Bulls to a greater level than what Wade lifted the Heat to.

Now let's address 2011. How do you explain this molestation?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3w_rSfW0AAPoYk.jpg

[red1]

Morning virgins.






4x Finals MVP - what a legend



Of course the haters would be low IQ losers. :oldlol:

[guy]

Any conference LeBron is in is automatically deemed "weak." Those claims can't be taken seriously.



No they call the East weak, because factually based on head to head matchups / overall records the West has significantly dominated the East for the past 2 decades, especially in the years where weak Eastern Conference teams like the 07 Cavs made it to the Finals. That wasn't the case during Jordan's career where it wasn't so lopsided.

Furthermore, when you talk about the Bulls, by winning the championship and not just getting to the Finals and losing, you essentially ran through the league, not "half" the league. So the "weak conference" debate is kinda weak when we're talking about actual champions unless you really believe in the whole wear and tear argument from playing a more difficult conference, which I think is overblown.

[guy]

LeBron made the Finals with none of those players in a historically weak EC (stats prove this), move LBJ and those Cavs and they get curbstomped by the '86 and '87 Celtics too. You know this but act dumb. The East was so bad, the Spurs exposed them in a sweep. Sweeps don't happen in the NBA Finals too often, only when one conference is much stronger then the other...or an all time great team that destroys everyone. That wasn't even the best version of the Spurs either.

Its an absurd take. Jordan's "carry a weak supporting cast deep in the playoffs" year was probably 1989 (sorry guys, yes there was a time where Scottie Pippen was just a role player), where Jordan dominated and led the Bulls over two 50 win teams including 2 of the top 6 teams in the league overall based on record.

Unfortunately instead of facing the 07 Pistons, a team that everyone who was watching around the time could acknowledge got complacent over the years and replaced possibly the best defender in the league at the time and arguably their best player with Chris Webber’s corpse and didn’t have their championship / HOF coach anymore, they faced the 89 Pistons who were the eventual champions and are considered one of the greatest teams of all time and were in the peak of their powers. Anybody thinking that the difference in Jordan not getting to the finals in 89 and Lebron getting their in 07 has something to do with them as players and not the fact that Jordan went up against better and more motivated opponents in ECF is pretty stupid. Bottom line is put the 07 Spurs in the East and the 07 Pistons in the West, and Lebron isn’t making in the finals.

[Hey Yo]

What a joke... Pippen absolutely never had a playoff run like AD did this year.

This is why 3ball makes threads about the media lying and distorting truth to promote a fake news agenda. They do it for things outside sports a lot too.
That because Pippens job was to create for others and run the offense, the exact opposite of what is expected from AD on offense

[TheGoatest]

Ahh another classic shifting of the goal posts. So it’s confirmed that no, Pippen did not lift the Bulls to a greater level than what Wade lifted the Heat to.

Now let's address 2011. How do you explain this molestation?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3w_rSfW0AAPoYk.jpg

I didn't shift the goal posts an inch. That's what you Jordan stans do.
You said that Jordan "lifted the Bulls to the 2nd 3-peat". But Jordan was on the Bulls for the 1995 playoffs. Why didn't he start the lifting there? Was it perhaps because he needed Rodman.

Anyway:

1986-87 season:

Dominique's Hawks, a team with 0 other all-stars = 57 wins
Milwaukee Bucks, a team with 0 all-stars = 50 wins
Indiana Pacers, a team with 0 all-stars = 41 wins
Jordan's Bulls = 40 wins

Explain.
This was his last season without Pippen.

[TheGoatest]

LeBron made the Finals with none of those players in a historically weak EC (stats prove this),

You want to talk about historically weak, then look no further than Jordan's finals opponents. Stats prove this:

https://i.redd.it/g7vmn1o505r01.jpg

[theman93]

I didn't shift the goal posts an inch. That's what you Jordan stans do.
You said that Jordan "lifted the Bulls to the 2nd 3-peat". But Jordan was on the Bulls for the 1995 playoffs. Why didn't he start the lifting there? Was it perhaps because he needed Rodman.

Anyway:

1986-87 season:

Dominique's Hawks, a team with 0 other all-stars = 57 wins
Milwaukee Bucks, a team with 0 all-stars = 50 wins
Indiana Pacers, a team with 0 all-stars = 41 wins
Jordan's Bulls = 40 wins

Explain.
This was his last season without Pippen.

Sure you did. You also changed the subject. We were talking about if Pippen lifted the Bulls without MJ to a height Wade couldn't lift the Heat to without Lebron. You were proven factually incorrect, so you tried to change the subject to the subsequent season. Don't blow smoke out of your ass if you don't want to get called on it. You fought the good fight and lost, now take the L like Lebron does so often in the Finals and let's move on.

Now, let's address 1995 and 2011:

Who is more responsible for their team's loss?

MJ vs Orlando: 31/6.5/3.7/2.5/1.8 with a 21.6 Game Score

or

Lebron vs Dallas: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 with a 13.7 Game Score

[TheGoatest]

Sure you did. You also changed the subject. We were talking about if Pippen lifted the Bulls without MJ to a height Wade couldn't lift the Heat to without Lebron. You were proven factually incorrect, so you tried to change the subject to the subsequent season. Don't blow smoke out of your ass if you don't want to get called on it. You fought the good fight and lost, now take the L like Lebron does so often in the Finals and let's move on.

Now, let's address 1995 and 2011:

Who is more responsible for their team's loss?

MJ vs Orlando: 31/6.5/3.7/2.5/1.8 with a 21.6 Game Score

or

Lebron vs Dallas: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 with a 13.7 Game Score

How was I proven factually incorrect? What the hell are you talking about?

1993-94 Bulls > 2009-10 Miami Heat
1993-94 Bulls > 2014-15 Miami Heat

That's a fact. The Bulls record is better. The Bulls made it further in the playoffs. Those are facts.

Yeah, let's address 1995 and 2011: Jordan losing to a team that went on to get swept in the finals, whereas LeBron lost to a team that swept the defending champions Lakers and beat the Thunder 4-1.

2011 is all you have.
I have every season Jordan ever played without Pippen.
I see you completely dodged to explain Jordan and his Bulls in the 1986-87 season.

[ZenMaster7210]

Now let's address 2011. How do you explain this molestation?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3w_rSfW0AAPoYk.jpg

:oldlol::roll: Goat? Not even close...

[theman93]

How was I proven factually incorrect? What the hell are you talking about?

1993-94 Bulls > 2009-10 Miami Heat
1993-94 Bulls > 2014-15 Miami Heat

That's a fact. The Bulls record is better. The Bulls made it further in the playoffs. Those are facts.

Yeah, let's address 1995 and 2011: Jordan losing to a team that went on to get swept in the finals, whereas LeBron lost to a team that swept the defending champions Lakers and beat the Thunder 4-1.

2011 is all you have.
I have every season Jordan ever played without Pippen.
I see you completely dodged to explain Jordan and his Bulls in the 1986-87 season.

Because you oh so conveniently left out 1995 before MJ's return.

1994 Bulls and 2010 Heat: Both lost to the Eastern Conference champions. Wash.
1995 Bulls and 2009 Heat: Both had an equal win % without MJ/Lebron. Wash.

And yes, not only did he lose, he was solely responsible for the loss and had the single greatest choke job in the history of the NBA while in the middle of his prime. Nothing compares to that, not even 1987.

Not only do I have 2011, but I also have 2007, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, and every other year he didn't win the ultimate prize. 6 in 15 years > 4 in 17 years.

[Spurs m8]

Just a daily reminder....no collusion, no ring.

History speaks for itself

[Roundball_Rock]

1994 Bulls and 2010 Heat: Both lost to the Eastern Conference champions. Wash.
1995 Bulls and 2009 Heat: Both had an equal win % without MJ/Lebron. Wash.

Hogwash.

The Bulls lost in 7 in the ECSF as the 3 seed and nearly won the 1 seed (they were 1 game out before losing a meaningless, due to tiebreakers, 82nd game to NY). The Heat were a .500 team that lost in the first round.

The 1995 Bulls lost Jordan, Grant, and Cartwright--3 of the starters on the 93' team with their "replacements" being Harper/Pete Myers (Myers was a scrub, Harper struggled in his first year in Chicago), Larry Krystowiak/Corie Blount/Dickey Simpkins (all scrubs), and Will Perdue (a bench player promoted to starter after Cartwright's departure). :oldlol: The 2009 Heat maintained what they were since 2006, a .500 type team that was a first round exit. Moreover, their SRS' were anything but equal. The Bulls' SRS (pre-MJ) was 3.8, 2nd best in the East and 7th in the NBA. The Heats' was 0.49, 5th in the East and 14th in the NBA.

You also ignore injuries. When Pippen and Grant played the Bulls were a 63 win pace team in 94'. That would be the best record in the NBA but Pippen missed 10 games (was injured for 2 more) and Grant missed 12 games (came off the bench for another game).

The Bulls were clearly superior to the Heat.

[OldSchoolBBall]

"Lebron just needs the ball...." and either 2 perennial all-stars, or a top 5 player capable of putting up a hyper-efficient 30 ppg playoff run with dominant defense and good supporting pieces, among other things.

You give Jordan and Lebron equally good casts (say, each other position besides theirs rated at a 7 on a 1-10 scale with bench players at a 5+ level), and a Jordan led team will beat a Lebron led team in a playoff series 80+% of the time. I don't even have to think twice about that.

[And1AllDay]

Just a daily reminder....no collusion, no ring.

History speaks for itself



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KquFZYi6L0

[Spurs m8]

"Lebron just needs the ball...." and either 2 perennial all-stars, or a top 5 player capable of putting up a hyper-efficient 30 ppg playoff run with dominant defense and good supporting pieces, among other things.

You give Jordan and Lebron equally good casts (say, each other position besides theirs rated at a 7 on a 1-10 scale with bench players at a 5+ level), and a Jordan led team will beat a Lebron led team in a playoff series 80+% of the time. I don't even have to think twice about that.

100%

[Shooter]

He did need Pippen.

https://i.postimg.cc/dVQ29yyW/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

[HoopsNY]

Such a ridiculous take. Here are Lebron's sidekick numbers in each of his 4 championships:

2012: 23/6/5 on 52% TS%, 16.4 GmSc
2013: 20/4/5 on 51% TS%, 14.9 GmSc
2016: 27/4/4 on 56% TS%, 19.1 GmSc
2020: 25/11/3 on 67% TS%, 22.8 GmSc

Here are Pippen's in half of MJ's, where his efficiency and/or production was a bit off:

1993: 21/9/8 on 46% TS%, 15.6 GmSc
1996: 16/8/5 on 43% TS%, 13.4 GmSc
1998: 16/7/5 on 50% TS%, 13.0 GmSc

Now to be fair, Pippen's numbers are a result of injury woes. But it still speaks volumes about MJ's ability to still lead the team and pull through to a victory, while his sidekick fights through injuries. But yea, LeBron is the one who "only needs a ball."

Cowherd is a clown.

[TheGoatest]

Because you oh so conveniently left out 1995 before MJ's return.

1994 Bulls and 2010 Heat: Both lost to the Eastern Conference champions. Wash.
1995 Bulls and 2009 Heat: Both had an equal win % without MJ/Lebron. Wash.

And yes, not only did he lose, he was solely responsible for the loss and had the single greatest choke job in the history of the NBA while in the middle of his prime. Nothing compares to that, not even 1987.

Not only do I have 2011, but I also have 2007, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, and every other year he didn't win the ultimate prize. 6 in 15 years > 4 in 17 years.

Pippen didn't even have Grant in 1994-95 before Jordan came back. But even though he didn't have Grant and played with nothing but role players he STILL had a winning record with those Bulls.
Jordan on the other hand had a 22.9 ppg on .554 shooting player in 1984-85 and a 14.5 ppg, 13.1 rpg and 3.6 apg player in 1986-87, both of who were better than anyone Pippen had in 1994-95, and he was still below .500 in both of those seasons.

LMAO @ the both losing to eastern conference champions argument. I guess that means that the 2012-13 Milwaukee Bucks and the 2012-13 San Antonio Spurs are on the same level because they ended up losing to the same team. :roll:

10 finals in 17 years > 6 finals in 15 years
14-14 record in the first round > 10-13 record in the first round
Winning without one single superstar multiple times > not winning without one particular superstar once in his career

Next.

[Walk on Water]

Michael Jordan needed Pippen and Lebron just needs...

- Dwyane Wade

- Chris Bosh

- Kyrie Irving

- Kevin Love

- Anthony Davis



And also Ray Allen and Dwight Howard. He even played with Derek Rose.

[TheGoatest]

And also Ray Allen and Dwight Howard. He even played with Derek Rose.

Nice attempt at a spin, Jordan stan.

More like:

LeBron DOESN'T need:

Dwyane Wade - won 2 titles without him
Chris Bosh - won 2 titles without him
Kyrie Irving - won 3 titles without him
Kevin Love - won 3 titles without him
Anthony Davis - won 3 titles without him
Ray Allen - won 3 titles without him
Dwight Howard - won 3 titles without him
"Derek" Rose - won 4 titles without him
Erik Spoelstra - won 2 titles without him
Tyronn Lue - won 3 titles without him
Frank Vogel - won 3 titles without him

Jordan on the other hand NEEDS Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson - won 0 titles without them
Not only did he not win any titles, he didn't even make it past the first round without them
Not only did he not make it past the first round without them, he had a 1-9 record in the playoffs
Not only did he have a 1-9 record in the playoffs without them, he didn't have a .500 season without them

[Baller789]

Nice attempt at a spin, Jordan stan.

More like:

LeBron DOESN'T need:

Dwyane Wade - won 2 titles without him
Chris Bosh - won 2 titles without him
Kyrie Irving - won 3 titles without him
Kevin Love - won 3 titles without him
Anthony Davis - won 3 titles without him
Ray Allen - won 3 titles without him
Dwight Howard - won 3 titles without him
"Derek" Rose - won 4 titles without him
Erik Spoelstra - won 2 titles without him
Tyronn Lue - won 3 titles without him
Frank Vogel - won 3 titles without him

Jordan on the other hand NEEDS Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson - won 0 titles without them
Not only did he not win any titles, he didn't even make it past the first round without them
Not only did he not make it past the first round without them, he had a 1-9 record in the playoffs
Not only did he have a 1-9 record in the playoffs without them, he didn't have a .500 season without them

So Lebron 31 titles? Wow he really is GOAT!

[TheGoatest]

So Lebron 31 titles? Wow he really is GOAT!

He won at least 2 without any one particular player or coach. Which is 2 more than Jordan won without Pippen and Phil Jackson.

[8Ball]

When Jordan saw he didn't have Pippen or Phil Jackson he knew it was over.

Jordan wasn't good enough to build his own team so he quit.

Imagine LeBron quitting NBA because of a small midget like Krauss :roll:

[DMAVS41]

I get his point, but this is a terrible argument for Lebron.

Doesn't make him worse, but Lebron hasn't won titles without very good to elite help.

[tpols]

Can you imagine what MJ would've done if he played with peak David Robinson and a handful of former all stars as role players?

People wouldn't even watch. It would be boring.

I threw down $200 on game 6 moneyline and only won like 75 dollars lol. Didn't even watch it.

[Baller789]

Colin Cowherd is a clown. He flip flops when he's pushing an agenda. His basketball analysis is composed of analogies to marriage. Lol.

[DMAVS41]

Can you imagine what MJ would've done if he played with peak David Robinson and a handful of former all stars as role players?

People wouldn't even watch. It would be boring.

I threw down $200 on game 6 moneyline and only won like 75 dollars lol. Didn't even watch it.

Here is the thing, peak David Robinson and peak Pippen aren't nearly as far apart as you seem to be building into this claim...especially as the 2nd best guy next to Jordan. Yes, Robinson was better, but lets stop pretending Pippen, especially at his peak, wasn't an all-time great...and he flourished in his role next to Jordan as well.

[TheGoatest]

Can you imagine what LeBron would've done if a version of Kawhi Leonard who could also average 7 assists per game was drafted by the Cavs entering LeBron's 4th season in the NBA?

People wouldn't even watch. It would be boring.

I didn't bet on any games, but I also wasn't stupid enough to predict that the Rockets would beat the Lakers in the 2nd round.

[Baller789]

Here is the thing, peak David Robinson and peak Pippen aren't nearly as far apart as you seem to be building into this claim...especially as the 2nd best guy next to Jordan. Yes, Robinson was better, but lets stop pretending Pippen, especially at his peak, wasn't an all-time great...and he flourished in his role next to Jordan as well.
I disagree.
An elite big would have better complemented a star-wing player especially at that era.

[DMAVS41]

I disagree.
An elite big would have better complemented a star-wing player especially at that era.

I agree. In fact, if you actually read my post...I said as much.

I simply said it is not a huge difference worth saying nobody would watch because it was so unfair...when Pippen himself was a great fit next to Jordan and also an all-time great player.

[tpols]

Here is the thing, peak David Robinson and peak Pippen aren't nearly as far apart as you seem to be building into this claim...especially as the 2nd best guy next to Jordan. Yes, Robinson was better, but lets stop pretending Pippen, especially at his peak, wasn't an all-time great...and he flourished in his role next to Jordan as well.

Not even remotely true.

David Robinson was way better than Scottie Pippen.

Pippen could never put up 30 PPG on 130 ORTG like AD did. He scored in the teens on poor efficiency.

[Baller789]

I agree. In fact, if you actually read my post...I said as much.

I simply said it is not a huge difference worth saying nobody would watch because it was so unfair...when Pippen himself was a great fit next to Jordan and also an all-time great player.
It's just not a case of player a is this much better than player b. It has to do more with compatibility.

[8Ball]

Colin speaks the truth.

I am glad he has a platform where he can talk about it every day.

[Baller789]

Colin speaks the truth.

I am glad he has a platform where he can talk about it every day.

Oh thats why your arguments are so weak. You get your stuff from wwe level analysts. Gotcha!

[DMAVS41]

Not even remotely true.

David Robinson was way better than Scottie Pippen.

Pippen could never put up 30 PPG on 130 ORTG like AD did. He scored in the teens on poor efficiency.

Yes, not remotely true...good point.

[DMAVS41]

It's just not a case of player a is this much better than player b. It has to do more with compatibility.

There is unknown there. What we do know is that Pippen was an all-time great player and he fit in very well with Jordan.

[Baller789]

There is unknown there. What we do know is that Pippen was an all-time great player and he fit in very well with Jordan.

Dude there is an unknown factor, but c'mon, Robinson is an ATG by himself. It isn't that hard to imagine they'd do well.

[DMAVS41]

Dude there is an unknown factor, but c'mon, Robinson is an ATG by himself. It isn't that hard to imagine they'd do well.

Who is saying he isn't an all-time great? Who is saying they wouldn't do well? Who said Robinson wasn't better than Pippen?

I merely said that Robinson vs. Pippen is not some night/day gap so big that it would cause people to not watch.

You guys are acting like Pippen wasn't an all-time elite and aren't making coherent points.

[Baller789]

Who is saying he isn't an all-time great? Who is saying they wouldn't do well? Who said Robinson wasn't better than Pippen?

I merely said that Robinson vs. Pippen is not some night/day gap so big that it would cause people to not watch.

You guys are acting like Pippen wasn't an all-time elite and aren't making coherent points.

Your saying that the gap with an all star perimeter player vs an all star big in the 90's paired with an ATG wing isn't that big.

I say it's going to be significant.

We're talking 90's basketball and not this 2020 perimiter oriented league.

There's nothing incoherent about that.

[MadDog]

Who is saying he isn't an all-time great? Who is saying they wouldn't do well? Who said Robinson wasn't better than Pippen?

I merely said that Robinson vs. Pippen is not some night/day gap so big that it would cause people to not watch.

You guys are acting like Pippen wasn't an all-time elite and aren't making coherent points.

Pippen seems to be undervalued on here. Robinson was better than him, and don't think it was particularly close either. But just reading these threads you would think Pippen was a certified role player. Anyone whose actually watched him play knows better.

[DMAVS41]

Your saying that the gap with an all star perimiter player vs an all star big in the 90's s paired with an ATG wing isn't that big.

I say it's going to be significant.

We're talking 90's basketball and not this 2020 permiter oriented league.

There's nothing incoherent about that.

I'm not sure your age, but some of us actually watched this all play out. There is no need to say "it's going to be significant' when we actually witnessed reality. And reality is...while it is my opinion that Robinson was a better player, there simply was not a huge gap between him and Pippen in most of their best years.

In terms of the pairing...we already saw Pippen/MJ...they were absolutely insanely good together...so, again, no need to make guesses. We already know how good they were. They were setting wins records and winning 6 titles in 7 years together.

So, yes, it is incoherent and probably just ignorant of how good Pippen actually was.

[DMAVS41]

Pippen seems to be undervalued on here. Robinson was better than him, and don't think it was particularly close either. But just reading these threads you would think Pippen was a certified role player. Anyone whose actually watched him play knows better.

Have them put them same scrutiny on Robinson as they do other players.

He got worse in the playoffs and lost a lot before a better player, Duncan, got there. If it didn't suit their agenda...they'd be saying he wasn't that good.

[8Ball]

Pippen made all nba 1st team 3x.

It means for 3 years he was one of the best 5 players in the league just like David Robinson.

Add to that a few all nba 2nd teams.

So Robinson and Scottie Pippen had near equal number of All NBA 1st and 2nd teams.

They were very equal.

[Baller789]

I'm not sure your age, but some of us actually watched this all play out. There is no need to say "it's going to be significant' when we actually witnessed reality. And reality is...while it is my opinion that Robinson was a better player, there simply was not a huge gap between him and Pippen in most of their best years.

In terms of the pairing...we already saw Pippen/MJ...they were absolutely insanely good together...so, again, no need to make guesses. We already know how good they were. They were setting wins records and winning 6 titles in 7 years together.

So, yes, it is incoherent and probably just ignorant of how good Pippen actually was.

So making a reasonable assumption based on ability, style of play and era is incoherent now?

Wow just wow.


I'm not saying Pippen is garbage but 90's basketaball?

Post offense > perimeter offence
Post defence > perimeter defence

And MJ and Scotties skillset kind of overlap so there's that.

[Baller789]

Pippen made all nba 1st team 3x.

It means for 3 years he was one of the best 5 players in the league just like David Robinson.

Add to that a few all nba 2nd teams.

So Robinson and Scottie Pippen had near equal number of All NBA 1st and 2nd teams.

They were very equal.

Hi Mr. I just ignore questions I'm ashamed to answer.

[TheCorporation]

I get his point, but this is a terrible argument for Lebron.

Doesn't make him worse, but Lebron hasn't won titles without very good to elite help.

Yeah that's 99% of all chip winners tho.

The difference is that LBJ showed he could win with multiple different stars/scenarios.

[Baller789]

Yeah that's 99% of all chip winners tho.

The difference is that LBJ showed he could win with multiple different stars/scenarios.

Whats his finals record tho?

[DMAVS41]

So making a reasonable assumption based on ability, style of play and era is incoherent now?

Wow just wow.


I'm not saying Pippen is garbage but 90's basketaball?

Post offense > perimeter offence
Post defence > perimeter defence

And MJ and Scotties skillset kind of overlap so there's that.

Your point is incoherent in response to me and you clearly are ignorant to how good Pippen was and how dominant the pairing of MJ/Pippen was. You realize there isn't much room to improve when you are winning 6 titles in 7 years and setting wins records...right?

The Bulls averaged like 65 wins and won 6 titles in that stretch. Do you not get how hard it would be to drastically improve upon those results?

I've already said Robinson was better as well.

What is your actual point?

[DMAVS41]

Whats his finals record tho?

Horrible argument.

Makes no sense and won't hold up. Penalizes player for making finals.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah that's 99% of all chip winners tho.

The difference is that LBJ showed he could win with multiple different stars/scenarios.

He showed that, but I don't think that makes the point you think it does. It means his "winning" is just like all the other players that won...he has just been fortunate enough to play on many loaded teams throughout his career.

[Baller789]

Your point is incoherent in response to me and you clearly are ignorant to how good Pippen was and how dominant the pairing of MJ/Pippen was. You realize there isn't much room to improve when you are winning 6 titles in 7 years and setting wins records...right?

I've already said Robinson was better as well.

What is your actual point?

Incoherent because it goes against your belief.

The truth is we'd never know. But to simply shoot the idea down is just plain narrowminded.

[Baller789]

Horrible argument.

Makes no sense and won't hold up. Penalizes player for making finals.

It should penalize you when you can't win even half your attempts.

[TheCorporation]

He showed that, but I don't think that makes the point you think it does. It means his "winning" is just like all the other players that won...he has just been fortunate enough to play on many loaded teams throughout his career.

Disagree. Kareem for example needed an elite PG (Robertson/Magic). Jordan needed an elite 2-way do-it-all wing (Pippen). Kobe needed an elite big (Shaq/Gasol,Odom). Magic needed Kareem.

They all had amazing coaches too. Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, etc.

LeBron won with no defensive anchor (besides him of course) in 2012, 2013, 2016. LeBron won with average or above average coaches, not top tier GOAT coaches. LeBron won with a #2 as a SG, PG, and PF. He didnt need perfect conditions to win like many others did.

[DMAVS41]

Incoherent because it goes against your belief.

The truth is we'd never know. But to simply shoot the idea down is just plain narrowminded.

Nobody shot it down. You need to actually engage with what someone is saying.

My belief, as I have said multiple times now, was that Robinson was better, but there wasn't a big gap between them.

In addition, we already know Pippen paired extremely well with MJ and the results back this up. They probably averaged around 65 wins a season and won 6 tiles in 7 years playing together.

Not understanding how hard it would be to improve that level of dominance is ignorant subbing in a player like Robinson. Simple as that.

[8Ball]

Horrible argument.

Makes no sense and won't hold up. Penalizes player for making finals.

If Luka Doncic at the end of his career makes:

4 finals and wins 4 of them.

Or

10 finals and wins 4 of them.

What is more impressive? We would throw Luka into the top 5 all time if he were to make 10 of them and win 4.

[DMAVS41]

Disagree. Kareem for example needed an elite PG (Robertson/Magic). Jordan needed an elite 2-way do-it-all wing (Pippen). Kobe needed an elite big (Shaq/Gasol,Odom). Magic needed Kareem.

They all had amazing coaches too. Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, etc.

LeBron won with no defensive anchor (besides him of course) in 2012, 2013, 2016. LeBron won with average or above average coaches, not top tier GOAT coaches. LeBron won with a #2 as a SG, PG, and PF. He didnt need to perfect conditions to win like many others did.

When you say "needed" you are penalizing players for not team hopping around. We don't know what Jordan "needed" as Pippen was the only all-time great he ever played with.

I don't think it is going out on a limb to think MJ produces similar results playing with other all-time greats.

Just not a good argument. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that if you give some of the best players of all-time...great supporting casts...they have a lot of success.

[DMAVS41]

If Luka Doncic at the end of his career makes:

4 finals and wins 4 of them.

Or

10 finals and wins 4 of them.

What is more impressive? We would throw Luka into the top 5 all time if he were to make 10 of them and win 4.

10 finals and wins 4 of them and it isn't even a question. Easily more impressive.

Are you actually serious?

[8Ball]

Hi Mr. I just ignore questions I'm ashamed to answer.

Your question is irrelevant to any GOAT discussion.

It's like asking me what LeBron's free throw percentage is.

[TheCorporation]

When you say "needed" you are penalizing players for not team hopping around. We don't know what Jordan "needed" as Pippen was the only all-time great he ever played with.

I don't think it is going out on a limb to think MJ produces similar results playing with other all-time greats.

Just not a good argument. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that if you give some of the best players of all-time...great supporting casts...they have a lot of success.

Jordan was a scorer. He NEEDED Pippen and Papa Phil Jackson. In his 5 seasons w/o Pip he didnt make any Finals. Same as any season without Phil.

[8Ball]

10 finals and wins 4 of them and it isn't even a question.

Are you actually serious?

That's my point.

Making the finals elevates someone's legacy.

The argument that losing in the finals is a negative is the most dumb argument ever.


If Rick Carlisle could make 10 finals with Luka and maybe win only 3-4 of them, he would take it in a heart beat. It's a question way too stupid for anybody to answer.

[DMAVS41]

Jordan was a scorer. He NEEDED Pippen and Papa Phil Jackson. In his 5 seasons w/o Pip he didnt make any Finals. Same as any season withou Phil.


Again, bad argument. He didn't have good teams those other years. This would only make sense if Jordan had Hakeem or Ewing or Robinson or Malone or Stockton...or some other all-time great before Pippen...and was consistently losing.

[Baller789]

Nobody shot it down. You need to actually engage with what someone is saying.

My belief, as I have said multiple times now, was that Robinson was better, but there wasn't a big gap between them.

In addition, we already know Pippen paired extremely well with MJ and the results back this up. They probably averaged around 65 wins a season and won 6 tiles in 7 years playing together.

Not understanding how hard it would be to improve that level of dominance is ignorant subbing in a player like Robinson. Simple as that.

Nah your just being intellectually dishonest here.

Your saying that they can't improve anymore that they've hit the ceiling, yet I have not seen an argument from you on how much more a big impacts the game than a wing in that era.

Who knows, they might have a 70 win season or two. That leap is significant, hypothetically of course.

[tpols]

Have them put them same scrutiny on Robinson as they do other players.

He got worse in the playoffs and lost a lot before a better player, Duncan, got there. If it didn't suit their agenda...they'd be saying he wasn't that good.

Robinson played against the murderer's row of big men. And he was the ONLY viable offensive player on his team. His team sucked. Rodman going there as a "co-star" is embarrassing help. No team with Rodman as their second best player is winning anything.

David Robinson would shatter todays crop of big men just like AD did.

[TheCorporation]

[/B]

Again, bad argument. He didn't have good teams those other years. This would only make sense if Jordan had Hakeem or Ewing or Robinson or Malone or Stockton...or some other all-time great before Pippen...and was consistently losing.

Woolridge? Oakley? Stackhouse?

Not amazing, but not terrible. And again, I'm not saying he had to win 3 more rings with them but...

0 Rings?
0 Finals?
0 playoff series wins?
1 playoff game win?

In 5 Pippenless years? Something smells...

[DMAVS41]

It should penalize you when you can't win even half your attempts.

No, that makes no sense.

Getting to the finals is better than losing earlier.

One could just flip this around and say it should penalize you if you can't make the finals in half your years in the league.

Jordan made the finals 6 times in 15 years. That should penalize him.

Lebron has made the finals 10 times in 17 years. Far more impressive.

[DMAVS41]

Woolridge? Oakley? Stackhouse?

Not amazing, but not terrible. And again, I'm not saying he had to win 3 more.rings with them but...

0 Rings?
0 Finals?
0 playoff series wins?
1 playoff game win?

In 5 Pippenless years? Something smells...

Yes, those teams were not good. Bad argument.

[MadDog]

That's my point.

Making the finals elevates someone's legacy.

The argument that losing in the finals is a negative is the most dumb argument ever.


If Rick Carlisle could make 10 finals with Luka and maybe win only 3-4 of them, he would take it in a heart beat. It's a question way too stupid for anybody to answer.

This is a dumb talking point though. Losing in the finals is only a "negative" when compared to players who won more there. On its face, nobody actually thinks making the finals is a bad thing :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Robinson played against the murderer's row of big men. And he was the ONLY viable offensive player on his team. His team sucked. Rodman going there as a "co-star" is embarrassing help. No team with Rodman as their second best player is winning anything.

David Robinson would shatter todays crop of big men just like AD did.

I actually think AD is better than Robinson.

What is your point?

MJ/Pippen destroyed the league for a long time.

[Baller789]

Your question is irrelevant to any GOAT discussion.

It's like asking me what LeBron's free throw percentage is.
If it's so irrelevant, why can't you answer? It's a simple question to put me in my place. *Wink*

[8Ball]

This is a dumb talking point though. Losing in the finals is only a "negative" when compared to players who won more there. On its face, nobody actually thinks making the finals is a bad thing :confusedshrug:

Fine then.

LeBron is 4 wins, 10 tries
Jordan is 6 wins, 6 tries

6-6 may be more impressive as of today. We are 1 more championship away from being 5-11, or hell 5-12.

But what about 5 wins, 11 finals? Can 6-6 > 5-11?

I don't think so.

[Baller789]

This is a dumb talking point though. Losing in the finals is only a "negative" when compared to players who won more there. On its face, nobody actually thinks making the finals is a bad thing :confusedshrug:

Don't tell them that.
Well they'll just ignore you and proceed to the making the finals should always be hyped than actually winning more.

[tpols]

I actually think AD is better than Robinson.

What is your point?

MJ/Pippen destroyed the league for a long time.

My point is David Robinson was better than Pippen.

And I think you're underselling him. AD has better jumpshooting skill, but he's a lot less powerful and athletically monstrous as D-Rob was. He has finesse athleticism... falls down a lot. I have a feeling Robinson is a lot stronger than him.

[MadDog]

Fine then.

LeBron is 4 wins, 10 tries
Jordan is 6 wins, 6 tries

6-6 may be more impressive as of today. We are 1 more championship away from being 5-11, or hell 5-12.

But what about 5 wins, 11 finals? Can 6-6 > 5-11?

I don't think so.

What do you mean "may"? :oldlol: Any player is taking 2 more rings over 4 more finals appearances.

[Baller789]

Fine then.

LeBron is 4 wins, 10 tries
Jordan is 6 wins, 6 tries

6-6 may be more impressive as of today. We are 1 more championship away from being 5-11, or hell 5-12.

But what about 5 wins, 11 finals? Can 6-6 > 5-11?

I don't think so.
So your saying, unless Lebron wins another ring, Jordan is still GOAT?

[DMAVS41]

Don't tell them that.
Well they'll just ignore you and proceed to the making the finals should always be hyped than actually winning more.

No, the point is that it is an arbitrary standard you are using with finals record that ignores all context.

Just like Lebron making the finals more is an arbitrary standard that ignores all the context.

I know you are new here, but you do better if you are going to post.

[8Ball]

If it's so irrelevant, why can't you answer? It's a simple question to put me in my place. *Wink*

Because it's irrelevant.

LeBron is 40% in the finals.

If you are talking about percentages, someone that wins the championship 6x but loses 9x (15 finals) is also 40%.

What is better? 4-10 or 6-15 or 6-6? Obviously 6-15 is better. This is why % is useless and irrelevant.


It shouldn't take you this long, but I guess you are still behind the argument.

[TheCorporation]

What do you mean "may" :oldlol: Any player is taking 2 more rings over 4 more finals appearances.

Which is harder?

11 Finals or 6 rings

[8Ball]

So your saying, unless Lebron wins another ring, Jordan is still GOAT?

If you are talking only rings. Then 6-6 has a slight edge over 4-10. 6-6 doesn't have an edge over 5-11, it may be even at that point championship wise.

If you are talking career, then no.

Greatness includes an entire career just by definition.

I have LeBron and Jordan neck and neck as of right now.

[DMAVS41]

My point is David Robinson was better than Pippen.

And I think you're underselling him. AD has better jumpshooting skill, but he's a lot less powerful and athletically monstrous as D-Rob was. He has finesse athleticism... falls down a lot. I have a feeling Robinson is a lot stronger than him.

Yes, Robinson was better imo...like I've said on repeat.

Way better? So much better that nobody would watch him and MJ? So much better that he'd produce clearly better results than 65 wins a season and 6 titles in 7 years? No, he wasn't that much better than Pippen.

And if you scrutinized him the way you do other players, you'd be lower on Robinson. Again, he got worse in the playoffs and lost every year until a better player came to town. Still was one of the best in the league and an all-time great, but so was Pippen.

[Baller789]

If you are talking only rings. Then yes.

If you are talking career, then no.

Greatness includes an entire career just by definition.

Wrong if your going by rings it's Bill Rusell not even close.

Too easy.

[Baller789]

Which is harder?

11 Finals or 6 rings
For those 11 finals, how many of those were in the weaker conference?

[DMAVS41]

Wrong if your going by rings it's Bill Rusell not even close.

Too easy.

That is going to make the opposite point unless you have Russell as the best player ever.

[ThatCoolKid]

Lebron can win in any context. MJ needed Pippin to save him. The debate is over.

[Baller789]

That is going to make the opposite point unless you have Russell as the best player ever.
Well hes ring counting, so thats that.

[8Ball]

Wrong if your going by rings it's Bill Rusell not even close.

Too easy.

We are talking Jordan vs LeBron. Are you confused?

Ring count obviously matters, but actual basketball talent matters too. So why is Bill Russel in this conversation?

[DMAVS41]

Well hes ring counting, so thats that.

Right, and once we all agree that there is more to this conversation than just number of rings. It brings a whole lot more into play other than the very narrow discussion most usually have.

[TheCorporation]

For those 11 finals, how many of those were in the weaker conference?

For those rings, how many contained plumbers and shoe salesmen in the weaker era?

:lol Too dumb. Too ez

[Baller789]

We are talking Jordan vs LeBron. Are you confused?

Ring count obviously matters, but actual basketball talent matters too. So why is Bill Russel in this conversation?

Duh. Because it's a GOAT discussion.

[tpols]

Yes, Robinson was better imo...like I've said on repeat.

Way better? So much better that nobody would watch him and MJ? So much better that he'd produce clearly better results than 65 wins a season and 6 titles in 7 years? No, he wasn't that much better than Pippen.

And if you scrutinized him the way you do other players, you'd be lower on Robinson. Again, he got worse in the playoffs and lost every year until a better player came to town. Still was one of the best in the league and an all-time great, but so was Pippen.

What?

Robinson always had amazing splits and productions in the playoffs. Better than Kobe. And if I admit that, it's saying something. Better than Dirk too. He had one embarrassing series that somehow wiped away the other 95% of his career. If we applied that logic to Lebron, 2011 would disqualify him even harsher. The man won a title averaging an unheard of 87 DRTG and +22 splits in '99 and absolutely nobody gives him any credit for it. That's a superstar ring. Pippen never came close to that.

You'll never hear about it.

[Baller789]

For those rings, how many contained plumbers and shoe salesmen in the weaker era?

:lol Too dumb. Too ez

Deflecting the question much?

[MadDog]

Well they'll just ignore you and proceed to the making the finals should always be hyped than actually winning more.

I noticed that. We're all in agreement that making the finals is good. How good just depends on who and what you're comparing that to. In relation to Jordan it simply isn't enough to dethrone him.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is funny the conference thing keeps being brought up with LeBron. The West was the stronger conference when MJ played and basically has been for most of NBA history (the 80's were a notable exception). It had more better teams, more superstars. The Knicks, Pacers were contenders in the East with 1 HOF player. The Cavs with 0. It wasn't exactly the 80's East with the Pistons, Celtics, and Sixers.

Moreover, LeBron won in both conferences yet he is who the conference card is being invoked against? :confusedshrug:

Finally, if the conference was weak then why do the same people turn around screaming "4-6!"? The argument is that same team wouldn't get out the first/second round in the other conference. Yet they are expected to beat the WC champ? :lol Similarly, why should we care Kobe went 5-2? The East was weak, right? LeBron haters like to have their cake and eat it too.

[DMAVS41]

What?

Robinson always had amazing splits and productions in the playoffs. Better than Kobe. And if I admit that, it's saying something. Better than Dirk too. He had one embarrassing series that somehow wiped away the other 95% of his career. If we applied that logic to Lebron, 2011 would disqualify him even harsher. The man won a title averaging an unheard of 87 DRTG and +22 splits in '99 and absolutely nobody gives him any credit for it. That's a superstar ring. Pippen never came close to that.

You'll never hear about it.

I'm not sure what you are referencing, but his production went down in the playoffs. Yes, it was still amazing production, but he wasn't as good as his regular season play for the years in question. Also, not sure why you'd bring up 99 Robinson. He wasn't as his peak then. You said his best years.

He never made the finals as the best player.

He was a 24/12/3 56% TS defensive monster in the playoffs in the best years of his career before Duncan. Really good.

Way better than Pippen? So good that him pairing with MJ would produce much better results than the Bulls already did and would cause people to not watch? No...

What is hard to understand?

As far as Dirk vs Robinson in the playoffs. I disagree. I'd take Dirk. Dirk was better for longer and had similar production and provides more of what you need to win in the playoffs. Dirk did 26/10/3 59% TS for a 12 year stretch in the playoffs and had way more success than Robinson as the franchise player.

[Phoenix]

My point is David Robinson was better than Pippen.

And I think you're underselling him. AD has better jumpshooting skill, but he's a lot less powerful and athletically monstrous as D-Rob was. He has finesse athleticism... falls down a lot. I have a feeling Robinson is a lot stronger than him.

Didn't you say AD was an 'alpha' version of David Robinson like......last week?




He had one embarrassing series that somehow wiped away the other 95% of his career.

For clarity, which series?

[Roundball_Rock]

David Robinson: Playoff Mr. Clutch. :roll:

This may be the dumbest thing I have ever seen here, even from a poster who said Ewing>LeBron. This confirms ttrols never watched any of those 90's players play. Robinson would be top 10-12 all-time if he showed up for the playoffs. He didn't and is back there with Pippen/Stockton/Wade types in the 25th range (give or take a couple spots) as a result.

[DMAVS41]

David Robinson: Playoff Mr. Clutch. :roll:

This may be the dumbest thing I have ever seen here, even from a poster who said Ewing>LeBron. This confirms ttrols never watched any of those 90's players play. Robinson would be top 10-12 all-time if he showed up for the playoffs. He didn't and is back there with Pippen/Stockton/Wade types in the 25th range (give or take a couple spots) as a result.

But now he was better than Kobe and Dirk in the playoffs all of a sudden. It is unreal the lengths they'll go to in order to knock Lebron.

Shit, I remember when these same people were saying that Lebron would never win one title. I can't imagine how making 10 finals and winning 4 titles has impacted them.

Well, I can, they are now saying David Robinson was better than Kobe in the playoffs. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

But now he was better than Kobe and Dirk in the playoffs all of a sudden. It is unreal the lengths they'll go to in order to knock Lebron.

Shit, I remember when these same people were saying that Lebron would never win one title. I can't imagine how making 10 finals and winning 4 titles has impacted them.

Well, I can, they are now saying David Robinson was better than Kobe in the playoffs. :lol

:lol

Yup, they spin themselves into pretzels to deny LeBron's greatness.

In addition to what you noted, they can't grasp the implications of their arguments. Robinson was MVP and many people considered him the best player in the NBA in 94' and 95' at his peak in that era. Davis has never been in the best player conversation and was a MVP candidate once, finishing 3rd. If Davis>Robinson>Kobe/Dirk, then damn, LeBron is in by far a much tougher era than MJ. :bowdown:

[1987_Lakers]

What?

Robinson always had amazing splits and productions in the playoffs. Better than Kobe. And if I admit that, it's saying something. Better than Dirk too. He had one embarrassing series that somehow wiped away the other 95% of his career. If we applied that logic to Lebron, 2011 would disqualify him even harsher. The man won a title averaging an unheard of 87 DRTG and +22 splits in '99 and absolutely nobody gives him any credit for it. That's a superstar ring. Pippen never came close to that.

You'll never hear about it.

:roll:

Horrific post.

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:

Horrific post.

99' Robinson was a superstar. :roll: He wasn't even an all-star that season--the first time he missed the all-star team in his career (not counting 97' when he played only 6 games). "Pippen never came close to" 99' Robinson. :roll:

[MadDog]

99' Robinson was a superstar. :roll: He wasn't even an all-star that season--the first time he missed the all-star team in his career (not counting 97' when he played only 6 games). "Pippen never came close to" 99' Robinson. :roll:

There were no all-stars in 1999, period. When did you start watching basketball? :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

There were no all-stars in 1999, period. When did you start watching basketball? :confusedshrug:

Rockhead at it again. :oldlol:

They cancelled the 1999 all star game due to the lockout.

@ DMAVS

The only reason Robinson didn't have as much success as Kobe is because he had far worse help than Kobe. The second he played with a viable star teammate, he insta-ringed with incredible metrics and impact.

But you guys don't count that ring for some reason under some false pretense "he wasn't the man" erroneous logic.

[1987_Lakers]

99' Robinson was a superstar. :roll: He wasn't even an all-star that season--the first time he missed the all-star team in his career (not counting 97' when he played only 6 games). "Pippen never came close to" 99' Robinson. :roll:

He also said D-Rob only had 1 bad playoff series in '95, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Postseason D-Rob from '93-'96 averaged 24 ppg on 53.6 TS%, regular season D-Rob in those same years was a 26 ppg on 58.4 TS% player, his efficiency in the postseason fell significantly, I think the drop in the efficiency had alot to do with lack of back to basket game, he mostly relied on a face up game.

D-Rob although an all-time great I think never really lived up to the hype, the hype in the early 90's was real, he was supposed to dominate the 90's along with MJ but it never happened.

[Phoenix]

But now he was better than Kobe and Dirk in the playoffs all of a sudden. It is unreal the lengths they'll go to in order to knock Lebron.

Shit, I remember when these same people were saying that Lebron would never win one title. I can't imagine how making 10 finals and winning 4 titles has impacted them.

Well, I can, they are now saying David Robinson was better than Kobe in the playoffs. :lol

Considering the lengths Tpols goes to prop up Dirk, it is a rather odd position. I mean just the other day he was saying that Dirk's clutch ability would probably put the 97/98 Jazz over the Bulls. Now he's saying Robinson ( obviously a great player but never was considered a 'clutch' playoff performer) is suddenly more clutch than Dirk. I can't keep up.

[DMAVS41]

Rockhead at it again. :oldlol:

They cancelled the 1999 all star game due to the lockout.

@ DMAVS

The only reason Robinson didn't have as much success as Kobe is because he had far worse help than Kobe. The second he played with a viable star teammate, he insta-ringed with incredible metrics and impact.

But you guys don't count that ring for some reason under some false pretense "he wasn't the man" erroneous logic.

Success and how good a player is are two different things....and I count everything.

I was using your statement. You said peak and best years for Robinson...so 99 doesn't fall into that. That is the only reason I'm not including that.

But, cool, glad to know that Kobe wasn't better than Robinson.

[Phoenix]

Rockhead at it again. :oldlol:

They cancelled the 1999 all star game due to the lockout.

@ DMAVS

The only reason Robinson didn't have as much success as Kobe is because he had far worse help than Kobe. The second he played with a viable star teammate, he insta-ringed with incredible metrics and impact.

But you guys don't count that ring for some reason under some false pretense "he wasn't the man" erroneous logic.

But he wasn't the man. It counts, just as Kobe's 2000 ring counts, but the correct context should be applied as to who was driving the bus. The first time Robinson was teamed with a viable star teammate he did indeed insta-ring.....but the teammate was better than him.

[Phoenix]

He also said D-Rob only had 1 bad playoff series in '95, which couldn't be further from the truth.



I assumed he was talking about the 95 series ( since that's the one playoff series people really remember him for, and not in a good way), but he may not want to look at the 94 series against Utah.

[Roundball_Rock]

There were no all-stars in 1999, period. When did you start watching basketball? :confusedshrug:

:oldlol: forgot that but the same point applies: he wasn't all-NBA that year either. He was past his prime by 99'. Does anyone dispute that?


He also said D-Rob only had 1 bad playoff series in '95, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Postseason D-Rob from '93-'96 averaged 24 ppg on 53.6 TS%, regular season D-Rob in those same years was a 26 ppg on 58.4 TS% player, his efficiency in the postseason fell significantly, I think the drop in the efficiency had alot to do with lack of back to basket game, he mostly relied on a face up game.

D-Rob although an all-time great I think never really lived up to the hype, the hype in the early 90's was real, he was supposed to dominate the 90's along with MJ but it never happened.

Yup. He had one of the WOAT meltdowns in the 94' playoffs at a time when many people thought Robinson>Hakeem as the best player in the world. Robinson consistently shrunk in the playoffs--that literally is THE knock against him. That is why he is around 25th all-time and not around 10th.


Considering the lengths Tpols goes to prop up Dirk, it is a rather odd position. I mean just the other day he was saying that Dirk's clutch ability would probably put the 97/98 Jazz over the Bulls. Now he's saying Robinson ( obviously a great player but never was considered a 'clutch' playoff performer) is suddenly more clutch than Dirk. I can't keep up.

:lol Yeah, it is incredibly inconsistent but the explanation is obvious: ttrols has no beliefs and is purely agenda driven, same as his hero 1-9ball. We have been posting on ISH for years. People didn't care about Robinson much until now, when they needed him for the agenda to prop up AD. The fatal flaw? If AD>Robinson that means this era>>>Robinson's (MJ's). They don't think through their BS, only what gets them through a given thread.


Success and how good a player is are two different things....and I count everything.

I was using your statement. You said peak and best years for Robinson...so 99 doesn't fall into that. That is the only reason I'm not including that.

But, cool, glad to know that Kobe wasn't better than Robinson.

:oldlol:


=PhoenixI assumed he was talking about the 95 series ( since that's the one playoff series people really remember him for, and not in a good way), but he may not want to look at the 94 series against Utah

He knows about it. That came up in the long Pippen 94' MVP thread where ttrols and co. were saying Pippen's playoff performance meant he couldn't have been MVP. Many people pointed out Pippen played better in that postseason than Robinson, Ewing, Shaq (so all the top 5 MVP people, except Hakeem).

[Phoenix]

:
:lol Yeah, it is incredibly inconsistent but the explanation is obvious: ttrols has no beliefs and is purely agenda driven, same as his hero 1-9ball. We have been posting on ISH for years. People didn't care about Robinson much until now, when they needed him for the agenda to prop up AD. The fatal flaw? If AD>Robinson that means this era>>>Robinson's (MJ's). They don't think through their BS, only what gets them through a given thread.





That's being generous. I've seen conflicting logic within the same page, let alone thread. :oldlol:

[Shooter]

Tpols is a big fail what's new.


This is all I need to see:


https://i.postimg.cc/dVQ29yyW/23hasAsaviorPIP.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

That's being generous. I've seen conflicting logic within the same page, let alone thread. :oldlol:

:lol

I forgot to note, another reason the Robinson stuff is revealing because they never gave a damn about Robinson before since he never played against the Bulls. Their focus historically has been hyping Ewing, Miller, Kemp, Drexler, etc. Robinson was ignored.

[3ball]

:oldlol: forgot that but the same point applies: he wasn't all-NBA that year either. He was past his prime by 99'. Does anyone dispute that?



Yup. He had one of the WOAT meltdowns in the 94' playoffs at a time when many people thought Robinson>Hakeem as the best player in the world. Robinson consistently shrunk in the playoffs--that literally is THE knock against him. That is why he is around 25th all-time and not around 10th.



:lol Yeah, it is incredibly inconsistent but the explanation is obvious: ttrols has no beliefs and is purely agenda driven, same as his hero 1-9ball. We have been posting on ISH for years. People didn't care about Robinson much until now, when they needed him for the agenda to prop up AD. The fatal flaw? If AD>Robinson that means this era>>>Robinson's (MJ's). They don't think through their BS, only what gets them through a given thread.



:oldlol:



He knows about it. That came up in the long Pippen 94' MVP thread where ttrols and co. were saying Pippen's playoff performance meant he couldn't have been MVP. Many people pointed out Pippen played better in that postseason than Robinson, Ewing, Shaq (so all the top 5 MVP people, except Hakeem).

No one mentioned pippen for MVP in 94'

He was one of many guys at #3 that no one ever knew were #3

It means nothing because the 3-peat strategy and system propped him up - he was nothing in the tough series or without the triangle..

The 99' rockets were more stacked than any Bulls team (pippen at 3rd option) but lost in 1st round demolition.. only MJ can win with pippen.. heck, no one won 3 Finals without their sidekick getting FMVP or 25-30 ppg in at least 1 Finals, so they couldn't win with pippen who was incapable of these things

[Shooter]

MJ won 57 games in 1993 with Horrace Grant as his #3 option
Scottie won 55 games in 1994 with Grant as his #2 option


ETHER

[3ball]

MJ won 57 games in 1993 with Horrace Grant as his #3 option
Scottie won 55 games in 1994 with Grant as his #2 option


ETHER

Yes the 93' bulls were more stacked

It's funny how MJ three-peats with Horace at 3rd option

but the 99' Rockets lost in 1st round with pippen at 3rd option

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ won 57 games in 1993 with Horrace Grant as his #3 option
Scottie won 55 games in 1994 with Grant as his #2 option


ETHER

That's because Grant sucked as a team's 3rd best player but was awesome as the 2nd best. Do I have the MJ stain narrative right? :lol

[3ball]

14' Kyrie was all-star MVP

15' Klay was a 1st time all-star

That's why Lebron/Kyrie/Love were considered better than Curry/Klay/Dray and therefore favored in both 15' and 16' preseasons.

So lebron only faced talent deficits vs KD's warriors in 17-18', which is offset the the Heatles similarly shutting down the league from 11-12'

And regarding the Finals runs in 07' or 18' - 1-star teams routinely won the East, aka Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, Jimmy Butler - only lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted the trend of 1-star teams winning the East.. lebron actually left a couple 1-star runs on the table in 09/10 as the heavy favorite, which is why he started stacking the deck after that..

he formed a super-team in a 1-star conference - is there anything more manufactured than that?.. his entire resume is distorted by this and he'd be Dr. J without the "decision".. that's why I rank him #11 (just ahead of Magic, who's ball-dominance similarly hurt Finals record despite a loaded team.. indeed, magic and kareem can't BOTH be top 5 with an asterisked 5-4 Finals record, so magic gets bumped down due to the same Finals-record-killing ball-dominance that bron has)

[HoopsNY]

It is funny the conference thing keeps being brought up with LeBron. The West was the stronger conference when MJ played and basically has been for most of NBA history (the 80's were a notable exception). It had more better teams, more superstars. The Knicks, Pacers were contenders in the East with 1 HOF player. The Cavs with 0. It wasn't exactly the 80's East with the Pistons, Celtics, and Sixers.

I find it really sad how you let this debate blind you, despite the fact that you're above and beyond these LeBron stans in intelligence where you can actually formulate informed opinions whereas the others are still Hooked on Phonics.

Jordan gets no credit for beating a Pistons team with 3 HOF'ers, or a Pacers team with 2, and beat a Lakers team with 3. But he "only" faced a Knicks team with 1 HOF'er? Isn't that convenient. MJ faced a Celtics team with 5 HOF'ers and lost, twice. But why are people acting like LeBron won against KD and the Warriors? Both MJ and LeBron lost. These HOF arguments aren't just new, they're inconsistent, too.

And aren't you always mentioning what each team's supporting cast looks like? So Miami having 3-4 potential HOF'ers doesn't matter? Or how about this year's Lakers with 4? Love the inconsistency there as well.

You're old enough to know and recall that these arguments about "HOF'ers" are new fangled arguments. This isn't the substance of debates from when we were coming up in the 90s. Why do you employ them now?

The reality is what should be emphasized is how players were when the Bulls actually faced them at the time. Is there any question in anyone's mind in 1993 that Kevin Johnson would have made the HOF? Or how about Penny Hardaway in 1997? Daughtery retired at 28. 7 more seasons of all-star/double-double ball and he's getting into the HOF, too. Look what happened to Kemp. Is there anyone that doubted, at the time, that he was on the road to bright career?

But it's MJ's fault that these guys (and others) succumbed to injury or drug use? Furthermore, what hurts players like Tim Hardaway from entering in the HOF is that they couldn't string together finals appearances, let alone a championship. Why? Cause who was gettin passed the Bulls? HOF resumes look a lot better with finals appearances and championship victories.


Moreover, LeBron won in both conferences yet he is who the conference card is being invoked against? :confusedshrug:

LeBron had to collude and bring over a top 3 player in AD in order to do that. What happened last year? What happened to the agreement with Magic Johnson that he would be the leader and mentor to Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram? LeBron gets to be the player GM but takes no criticism when things fail. Missed playoffs without AD, championship with AD. But the difference in 2019 and 2020 is all LeBron? That's interesting.

[Roundball_Rock]

These discussions can't be taken seriously so nuance gets lost.


Isn't that convenient. MJ faced a Celtics team with 5 HOF'ers and lost, twice.

People are talking about the years they made the finals. The big refrain is the East was a joke when LeBron did it (waiting for the explanation for 2020).


And aren't you always mentioning what each team's supporting cast looks like?

Amen! :cheers: Yeah, and I would note that (along with teams being more stacked in this era due to free agency) if I were taking the discussion seriously. I'm just hear to poke some holes in what MJ fans are saying.


The reality is what should be emphasized is how players were when the Bulls actually faced them at the time. Is there any question in anyone's mind in 1993 that Kevin Johnson would have made the HOF? Or how about Penny Hardaway in 1997?

That is a legit point but I had this discussion with guy months ago. It wouldn't net out the way MJ fans assume it would. For every Penny, there is a Rose. For every KJ, there is an IT. For every Price, there is an Arenas. Etc.


LeBron had to collude and bring over a top 3 player in AD in order to do that.

They had to trade their hyped "core." Davis came at a high cost, as did PG. PG was the one who was considered better at the time of those trades coming off a MVP caliber season, 1st team all-NBA, 2nd in scoring, etc. Kawhi/PG were supposed to win, not LeBron/AD.

People act like AD went to LA for free. That was the entire beef some Lakers fans (basically Kobe fans) had with the trade: they could have signed AD for free a year later and kept the "core". That would have meant giving up a shot at a chip in 20'. We know how going for it worked out now.

[8Ball]

Collude?

They gutted the ENTIRE Lakers roster to bring in Anthony Davis. Any team in the league could have done that trade if they wanted to give up that much. For Boston that price was way too high.

At the start of free agency this was the Lakers roster:

LeBron, AD, Kuzma. 3 players. Lol, you colluded your way to a 3 man roster at the start of free agency.


And they missed out on 90% of the free agents out there since they had to wait for Kawhi to make up his mind. So they filled up their remaining 12 guys with a bunch of castaways.

[3ball]

Pippen was nothing without the perfect setup - 7 years of grooming and a 3-peat strategy/system = 55 wins just like Lowry or Marc Gasol, aka everyone and 2nd round embarrassment.. then he was a .500 bum the next year when the 3-peat luster was gone and the playoffs had exposed him

That was peak pippen.. 21 on 40% in the 2nd Round and destroyed by Ewing.. Kukoc had higher BPM in those playoffs, while grant/bj/kukoc had higher WS/48... Pippen simply wasn't a 1st option.... he was.... "a pippen"

So again, pippen never "succeeded", aka averaged 27 and 29 in the Finals like Kyrie, AD, and Wade or otherwise "carried" or "dominated".. his peak was 21 in the Finals and 19 on 42% overall.. he had 16 on 40% in 2 Finals, 5 ECF, and the 7 game war in the 92' ECSF.. 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs..

Only Jordan kept this guy on the map
.

[tpols]

Success and how good a player is are two different things....and I count everything.

I was using your statement. You said peak and best years for Robinson...so 99 doesn't fall into that. That is the only reason I'm not including that.

But, cool, glad to know that Kobe wasn't better than Robinson.


Kobe had a better career than David Robinson because he played with more help. He won more. He was more exciting. This is true of every top 10 GOAT. Who did Robinson play with that matches KAJ, Shaq, Magic, Kobe, Wade, AD, West, Clyde, Pippen etc? Nobody. Until Duncan. As a fan of the game, I'm always down to upgrade my analysis in the face of new information. You thinking Dirk is better than David Robinson or whatever or saying my logical framework isn't sound because his numbers dropped in the playoffs is where I can't agree with you. He has splits and productions that are hugely in the positive for his whole playoff career. He literally had zero help compared to other all time greats. And when he finally wins on ridiculously positive numbers, you dismiss it because "he wasn't da man" lmao.

[Roundball_Rock]

Collude?

They gutted the ENTIRE Lakers roster to bring in Anthony Davis. Any team in the league could have done that trade if they wanted to give up that much. For Boston that price was way too high.

At the start of free agency this was the Lakers roster:

LeBron, AD, Kuzma. 3 players. Lol, you colluded your way to a 3 man roster at the start of free agency.


And they missed out on 90% of the free agents out there since they had to wait for Kawhi to make up his mind. So they filled up their remaining 12 guys with a bunch of castaways.

Yup. People act like it was the Gasol to the Lakers trade or something.

There were two major trades in the offseason. LeBron and AD thrived, PG shrunk on the Clippers. These outcomes were not known at the time.

[MadDog]

What is Colin Cowherd's take on AD outscoring LeBron, playing better defense, and having more winshares en-route to a ring? Just a "ball" or teaming up with another superstar? :oldlol:

[tpols]

What is Colin Cowherd's take on AD outscoring LeBron, playing better defense, and having more winshares en-route to a ring? Just a "ball" or teaming up with another superstar? :oldlol:


I remember the bran gang telling me that AD didn't outscore Lebron for the playoffs because he played more minutes. :oldlol:

These fellas don't live in reality.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yup, that 0.1 PPG makes all the difference--especially since a lot of those were dunks/bunny shots set up by LeBron. :lol

[8Ball]

Actually I won't be the retard that says LeBron had no help in 2020.


When the AD trade happened, I said there was no excuse for losing in 2020. There was no other team as good as the Lakers even if the Lakers roster 3-15 was pretty garbage.


LeBron and AD delivered.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No idea why this is a discussion. Dude just trolls the airwaves.


I remember the bran gang telling me that AD didn't outscore Lebron for the playoffs because he played more minutes. :oldlol:

These fellas don't live in reality.

Inventing new criteria and deviating from the norm.

Standard procedure with that cult :oldlol:

[MadDog]

I remember the bran gang telling me that AD didn't outscore Lebron for the playoffs because he played more minutes. :oldlol:

These fellas don't live in reality.

Who is the "bran gang"? I think its funny nobody is talking about AD when he arguably outplayed LeBron. The same LeBron these people want to anoint "GOAT".

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is what The Ringer said when the PG trade happened:


The Clippers should be the favorites to win the 2020 NBA Finals. It goes without saying that Leonard and George are two of the game’s elites. Kawhi is a superhuman scorer and a godly defender. George was an MVP candidate for most of last season during his career-best offensive stretch while maintaining his status as an elite defender. Both stars excel with or without the ball. Both stars are unselfish. Both stars defend. Most superstar groups have overlapping strengths, like Wade’s and LeBron’s ball handling, but Leonard and George are natural fits who can play off each other. And they’ll have one of the league’s strongest supporting casts.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/7/6/20684206/paul-george-kawhi-leonard-clippers-free-agency-russell-westbrook

A lot of these MJ stans were hailing George just this summer. Now he is a bum, AD is Kareem/Hakeem/super Robinson. :oldlol:


Inventing new criteria and deviating from the norm.


That was dumb but so is the MJ army harping on AD "outscoring LeBron" when he scored 27.7 and LeBron 27.6. LeBron's job is to pass first, score second. That gets ignored as if he was designated to outscore AD. Maybe instead of averaging 8.8 assists it should have been 8.5 to get that extra 0.2 of a PPG? :lol

AD scored 582 PO points, LeBron 580. This is what MJ stans are reduced to harping on. :oldlol:

[tpols]

Who is the "bran gang"? I think its funny nobody is talking about AD when he arguably outplayed LeBron. The same LeBron these people want to anoint "GOAT".

I believe it was RRR3. He went into a fit of rage calling me a retard, idiot, etc. and said it didn't count because of "minutes". :lol

[tpols]

Yup, that 0.1 PPG makes all the difference--especially since a lot of those were dunks/bunny shots set up by LeBron. :lol

It doesn't matter if it's only by .1, because fangirls (like yourself) on this site and in the media are giving Lebron all of the credit and calling him the GOAT now.

They're literally totally ignoring the fact that not only was he outscored by a teammate, said teammate did it on better efficiency. And is a better defender.

What?

AD's playoff numbers with the Pelicans were just as dominant so your cute little spin there doesn't fly either.

Man's out here hitting buzzer beater fadeaway 3's and you're saying he's birdfed lmao.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe had a better career than David Robinson because he played with more help. He won more. He was more exciting. This is true of every top 10 GOAT. Who did Robinson play with that matches KAJ, Shaq, Magic, Kobe, Wade, AD, West, Clyde, Pippen etc? Nobody. Until Duncan. As a fan of the game, I'm always down to upgrade my analysis in the face of new information. You thinking Dirk is better than David Robinson or whatever or saying my logical framework isn't sound because his numbers dropped in the playoffs is where I can't agree with you. He has splits and productions that are hugely in the positive for his whole playoff career. He literally had zero help compared to other all time greats. And when he finally wins on ridiculously positive numbers, you dismiss it because "he wasn't da man" lmao.

You are not addressing the point, as usual.

I never said his playoff numbers were bad. I said they weren't as good as his regular season numbers in the years you referenced. Which is a fact.

In the regular season before Duncan...Robinson did 118 ortg / 97 drtg / 59% TS

In the playoffs before Duncan...Robinson did 113 ortg / 101 drtg / 56% TS

Like I said. Still great production overall and was an elite player, but he got worse in the playoffs and had limited success.

So, once again, you are just wrong and don't understand reality.

I'm not taking Dirk over him just because of team success...although that does play a role. I see no reason to believe Robinson could do what Dirk did, but I think Dirk was a better player. You always miss the actual meat on the bones of the argument. I think Dirk was better and a more valuable basketball player to his team. He also played at a higher level longer.

Again, I'm not dismissing anything. I'm just putting the proper context onto the 99 ring. Robinson was not in his prime and was something like 15/10/2 iirc in the playoffs. Of course it counts, but it doesn't count the same as rings won as the clear cut best player on a team.

The problem you have is that you don't ever take a step back and think who the better player actually was and for how long. Robinson was great and some have him top 20 all-time. I'd disagree, but it isn't the dumbest thing ever. He just didn't play as well in the playoffs and he had a limited run. He missed basically an entire year in 97 when he was 32 I think...and was never the same level of player.

[MadDog]

It doesn't matter if it's only by .1, because fangirls (like yourself) on this site and in the media are giving Lebron all of the credit and calling him the GOAT now.

They're literally totally ignoring the fact that not only was he outscored by a teammate, said teammate did it on better efficiency. And is a better defender.

What?

AD's playoff numbers with the Pelicans were just as dominant so your cute little spin there doesn't fly either.

Man's out here hitting buzzer beater fadeaway 3's and you're saying he's birdfed lmao.

All true. The picture being painted isn't that LeBron cant score or that he isn't allowed to play with good teammates. Its that LeBron fans pretend his teammates are trash. And in AD's case, they literally act like he didn't outscore LeBron or outdefend and achor the Laker defense. Pathetic :oldlol: Imagine if the tables were turned with Pippen and Jordan. Or Hakeem and his second option in the 90s. They would never hear the end of it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Who did Robinson play with that matches KAJ, Shaq, Magic, Kobe, Wade, AD, West, Clyde, Pippen etc? Nobody

:facepalm

That is the point: most 90's contenders had second options like Sean Elliott, John Starks, Rik Smits, Terry Porter, Otis Thorpe, etc.

Robinson's peak years coincided with Rodman being there. That is one HOF teammate plus Elliott. That is "no help"? That is plenty of help for that era. Hakeem would have won with those teams. After the fact Hakeem>Robinson but at the time they were considered equal based on their RS level of play. The difference is Hakeem elevated in the PO, Robinson shrunk and their reputations and all-time rankings reflect that after those two seasons.


I'm not taking Dirk over him just because of team success...although that does play a role. I see no reason to believe Robinson could do what Dirk did, but I think Dirk was a better player. You always miss the actual meat on the bones of the argument. I think Dirk was better and a more valuable basketball player to his team. He also played at a higher level longer.

1-9 disciple ttrols thinks Dirk>Duncan but Dirk<Robinson? :wtf:


I'm just putting the proper context onto the 99 ring. Robinson was not in his prime and was something like 15/10/2 iirc in the playoffs. Of course it counts, but it doesn't count the same as rings won as the clear cut best player on a team.

Yeah, he wasn't anything close to what 1990-1996 Robinson was. He was older and had a major injury in 97'.


And in AD's case, they literally act like he didn't outscore LeBron

MJ fans hyping 2 points over 21 games. :oldlol:

[tpols]

All true. The picture being painted isn't that LeBron cant score or that he isn't allowed to play with good teammates. Its that LeBron fans pretend his teammates are trash. And in AD's case, they literally act like he didn't outscore LeBron or outdefend and achor the Laker defense. Pathetic :oldlol: Imagine if the tables were turned with Pippen and Jordan. Or Hakeem and his second option in the 90s. They would never hear the end of it.

Imagine if Pippen averaged 34 PPG in a playoff run to MJ's 33 PPG.

IMAGINE how the bulls would be running through teams. In the words of Moses, that would be a true fo-fo-fo-fo sweep.

[DMAVS41]

All true. The picture being painted isn't that LeBron cant score or that he isn't allowed to play with good teammates. Its that LeBron fans pretend his teammates are trash. And in AD's case, they literally act like he didn't outscore LeBron or outdefend and achor the Laker defense. Pathetic. Imagine if the tables were turned with Pippen and Jordan. Or Hakeem and his second option in the 90s. They would never hear the end of it :oldlol:

Like I said earlier. Cowherd is making a terrible argument as Lebron has had great teams for a decade now.

What distracts from that is when Jordan fans act like Pippen wasn't an elite all-time great player. He was...and just like Lebron fans should acknowledge all the great help he's had...Jordan fans should acknowledge how good Pippen actually was.

Not hard.

[MadDog]

Like I said earlier. Cowherd is making a terrible argument as Lebron has had great teams for a decade now.

What distracts from that is when Jordan fans act like Pippen wasn't an elite all-time great player. He was...and just like Lebron fans should acknowledge all the great help he's had...Jordan fans should acknowledge how good Pippen actually was.

Not hard.

Agree with this too, and I had quoted you in a prior post saying as much. Pippen was definitely better than some are leading on. Its worse with AD though because he is arguably the Lakers best player, or at least on LeBron's level. Yet the media and LeBron fans wont acknowledge that.

[tpols]

Like I said earlier. Cowherd is making a terrible argument as Lebron has had great teams for a decade now.

What distracts from that is when Jordan fans act like Pippen wasn't an elite all-time great player. He was...and just like Lebron fans should acknowledge all the great help he's had...Jordan fans should acknowledge how good Pippen actually was.

Not hard.

People can keep it real on Pippen being great... had some great years, splits and productions... but also admit AD is better. And a lot better by every metric.

Pippen has always got his due. The amount of recognition he's gotten is actually disproportionate to how good he was.

There's a lot of people that think he's better than Pat Ewing or David Robinson despite being owned at his peak by the former in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Agree with this too, and I had quoted you in a prior post saying as much. Pippen was definitely better than some are leading on. Its worse with AD though because he is arguably the Lakers best player, or at least on LeBron's level. Yet the media and LeBron fans wont acknowledge that.

Yes, AD in his current form is better than Pippen ever was. I don't think there is much to dispute that even though Pippen was great and often gets under-rated.

However, Lebron is doing this at a stage of his career that makes his play insanely impressive...the context of that is often ignored by the other side. This isn't 27 year-old Lebron...he's older now and he's still playing at a crazy good level.

[MadDog]

MJ fans hyping 2 points over 21 games. :oldlol:

AD averaged more points per game than LeBron while anchoring the Laker defense. Acknowledge it.

[DMAVS41]

People can keep it real on Pippen being great... had some great years, splits and productions... but also admit AD is better. And a lot better by every metric.

Yep.

Just posted above that current AD is better than Pippen ever was. Don't really think that is controversial and I doubt many would actually disagree.

[Shooter]

Yup, that 0.1 PPG makes all the difference--especially since a lot of those were dunks/bunny shots set up by LeBron. :lol

2020 FINALS

LBJ: 30/12/9 on 59%
AD: 25/11/3 on 57%

Any questions TPols? :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Agree with this too, and I had quoted you in a prior post saying as much. Pippen was definitely better than some are leading on. Its worse with AD though because he is arguably the Lakers best player, or at least on LeBron's level. Yet the media and LeBron fans wont acknowledge that.

That should raise some questions. This whole "LeBron vs. AD" thing is entirely the province of ISH, RealGM, etc.. No one outside of that sub-set of the NBA world is talking about that and even there it largely is MJ/Kobe fans with obvious agendas (they never cared about sidekicks before). That should raise some red flags.

I suspect it is because LeBron clearly is the more valuable player so the best player discussion is mooted. The Lakers' offense can't function without LeBron's playmaking. We saw them go 6-3 without Davis, though.

LeBron, Luka, Harden, Davis, Giannis, Kawhi were the top 6 players this year by consensus in some order. Then you have KD, Curry coming back next year. Where does AD fall among them? That is the real question. Pippen is a red herring MJ fans bring up because they are obsessed with him. AD isn't playing against Pippen and vice versa. AD was 5 years old when Pippen's prime ended. He is playing against Luka, Harden, Giannis, Kawhi, KD, and Curry.

The answer from MJ/Kobe stans implicitly is AD should be #1, #2 or at least #3 among LeBron/Luka/Harden/Davis/Giannis/Kawhi/KD/Curry. I don't think many people outside of those fan bases would agree. DMAVS, what is your take on AD vs. those guys?

Before the Clippers' savior team was slayed, Davis was argued as 4th-5th by most (since then he has become KAJ :lol ). The Ringer had Davis 4th in mid-February, for instance. That is with KD, Curry out. https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/2/17/21138373/nba-player-ranking-2019-20-all-star-break That article has this nugget:

Situation Offensive Rating Defensive Rating Net Rating

Both players on 113.5 103.2 10.3
LeBron on, Davis off 115.5 103.4 12.1
LeBron off, Davis on 103.5 109.7 -6.2

This is why LeBron is considered the "#1".

[MadDog]

That should raise some questions. This whole "LeBron vs. AD" thing is entirely the province of ISH, RealGM, etc.. No one outside of that sub-set of the NBA world is talking about that and even there it largely is MJ/Kobe fans with obvious agendas (they never cared about sidekicks before). That should raise some red flags.

I suspect it is because LeBron clearly is the more valuable player so the best player discussion is mooted. The Lakers' offense can't function without LeBron's playmaking. We saw them go 6-3 without Davis, though.

LeBron, Luka, Harden, Davis, Giannis, Kawhi were the top 6 players this year by consensus in some order. Then you have KD, Curry coming back next year. Where does AD fall among them? That is the real question. Pippen is a red herring MJ fans bring up because they are obsessed with him. AD isn't playing against Pippen and vice versa. AD was 5 years old when Pippen's prime ended. He is playing against Luka, Harden, Giannis, Kawhi, KD, and Curry.

What is "clear" about that? AD was the better scorer statistically, more efficient, grabbed more rebounds and anchored the Laker defense. Meaning he had more defensive impact. LeBron only out-assists him basically. I can admit that LeBron might bring more value tothe Laker offense, but there are a number of advanced stats on offense that also favor AD. Winshares being one of them. The reason the media doesn't talk about AD is because unlike LeBron, he doesn't sell. LeBron fans have their agenda so obvious one there.

[DMAVS41]

We had the AD conversation a while back before the finals.

I don't think the margins are very big, but...I'd have the following players ahead of AD;

Lebron/Leonard/Giannis/Harden

If we assume Curry/Durant are healthy...I'd have them over him as well. I'm biased about Luka, but going into next year I'd probably rather have him as well given what I saw from Luka in the playoffs.

Wouldn't argue with much about someone higher on Davis, but I also don't think you learn a ton about a player joining up with someone like Lebron and winning. We already knew AD was great, the question is how great...and I'm not sure that gets answered in one year playing with Lebron.

[tpols]

We had the AD conversation a while back before the finals.

I don't think the margins are very big, but...I'd have the following players ahead of AD;

Lebron/Leonard/Giannis/Harden

If we assume Curry/Durant are healthy...I'd have them over him as well. I'm biased about Luka, but going into next year I'd probably rather have him as well given what I saw from Luka in the playoffs.

Wouldn't argue with much about someone higher on Davis, but I also don't think you learn a ton about a player joining up with someone like Lebron and winning. We already knew AD was great, the question is how great...and I'm not sure that gets answered in one year playing with Lebron.

Giannis and Harden are absolutely not better at basketball than AD.

And I sorta like Harden because of his skill level. Even if he plays cheap.

[LAmbruh]

poor Tpols getting his neck rung per usual :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Giannis and Harden are absolutely not better at basketball than AD.

And I sorta like Harden because of his skill level. Even if he plays cheap.

Ok, thanks for your input.

[MadDog]

Giannis and Harden are absolutely not better at basketball than AD.

And I sorta like Harden because of his skill level. Even if he plays cheap.

The only player I would take over AD without hesitation is a healthy Durant. We don't know how he'll play next season though. Everyone else from LeBron and Curry to Harden are more than arguable. I don't think a Giannis/LeBron tandem would be as good as AD/LeBron either.

[tpols]

The only player I would take over AD without hesitation is a healthy Durant. Everyone else from LeBron and Curry to Harden are more than arguable. I don't think Giannis and a LeBron tandum would be as good as AD/LeBron either.


All healthy?

My top 5 is.

Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Durant
Anthony Davis
Steph Curry
Lebron James

[Roundball_Rock]

What is "clear" about that?

Stuff like this:

Situation Offensive Rating Defensive Rating Net Rating

Both players on 113.5 103.2 10.3
LeBron on, Davis off 115.5 103.4 12.1
LeBron off, Davis on 103.5 109.7 -6.2


The reason the media doesn't talk about AD is because unlike LeBron, he doesn't sell.

This is his 8th season in the league. We are being told he is Kareem now. No MJ/Kobe stan said that about him until he joined LeBron. That says something. People would notice a Kareem-level player, even in a small market. Look at Giannis. MIL is a smaller market just like NO is.


Lebron/Leonard/Giannis/Harden

If we assume Curry/Durant are healthy...I'd have them over him as well. I'm biased about Luka, but going into next year I'd probably rather have him as well given what I saw from Luka in the playoffs.

I'd go (in order): LeBron, Kawhi, Durant, Luka, Curry, Davis, Giannis, Harden (the clear cut superstar tier--there is a falloff after them to guys like Jokic, Butler, George, Embiid, etc.). Hard to say about KD, Curry but I am assuming they are what they were pre-injury until we see otherwise. I have to dock Giannis hard after what happened in the PO.

Look at these 8 players. These are all top 30 all-time players when it is all said and done, with most of them probably being top 20. This is a deeper era than Pippen's.


Giannis and Harden are absolutely not better at basketball than AD.

Those guys have MVP's. Davis doesn't. He finished 3rd in MVP once and 5th another time--same as the reviled Pippen did in his era. :oldlol:

[MadDog]

All healthy?

My top 5 is.

Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Durant
Anthony Davis
Steph Curry
Lebron James

Pretty good list. I think LeBron is arguably the best currently, same with AD, but with top talent you're always splitting hairs

[Phoenix]

All healthy?

My top 5 is.

Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Durant
Anthony Davis
Steph Curry
Lebron James

Considering the injury history of 4 of those players, you're never going to see all of them healthy at the same time to reach that conclusion.

[tpols]

Considering the injury history of 4 of those players, you're never going to see all of them healthy at the same time to reach that conclusion.

Lebron's physical makeup is unbelievable. He's never had a single major injury or surgery.

He's probably the most athletic person to ever live.

Even Wilt got hurt.

[Shooter]

poor Tpols getting his neck rung per usual :oldlol:

He has to be a masochist to take this much continual punishment but keeps trotting back, eager eyed, like a good little lap dog. Odd fellow

Tpols after LeFam runs a train on him

https://media.giphy.com/media/WQ2IwyAgYlmU0/giphy.gif

Every hour, back for more

[Roundball_Rock]

He has to be a masochist to take this much continual punishment but keeps trotting back, eager eyed, like a good little lap dog. Odd fellow

Tpols after LeFam runs a train on him

https://media.giphy.com/media/WQ2IwyAgYlmU0/giphy.gif

Every hour, back for more

His "master" is 1-9ball. He is willing to take the punishment on behalf of 3ball. :lol

[MadDog]

This is his 8th season in the league. We are being told he is Kareem now. No MJ/Kobe stan said that about him until he joined LeBron. That says something. People would notice a Kareem-level player, even in a small market. Look at Giannis. MIL is a smaller market just like NO is.

Kareem was snubbed all the time though. The media has perpetually undermined his success, even now in the GOAT discussion. I am not comparing AD to Kareem and doubt anyone seriously puts them on equal footing. I am saying they are very much overshadowed. If I were wrong you would hear more about AD's ability to carry LA's defense or equal (beat) LeBron in scoring. AD is background noise unfortunately.

[Shooter]

His "master" is 1-9ball. He is willing to take the punishment on behalf of 3ball. :lol

:roll::roll::roll: it all makes sense now

[Roundball_Rock]

My point is AD was considered the 5th-10th best player, depending on the year, his entire prime until this year where he suddenly is being called Kareem or Hakeem, the best player in the NBA, etc. When you look at who the people pushing this are fans of it is obvious what is going on.

Look at the post above that says AD>Curry. No one would say that a year ago.

If it was PG going to the Lakers and AD to the Clippers, PG is the one these same people would be gassing.

[Shooter]

My point is AD was considered a 5th-10th best player his entire prime until this year where he suddenly is being called Kareem or Hakeem, the best player in the NBA, etc. When you look at who the people pushing this are fans of it is obvious what is going on.

I would have to give push back on AD being top 5 before LeBron. Many top 10 lists on ISH in 2019 had him outside of the top 10 and not a single one had him in the top 5.

But, if AD is supposed to be "Kareem-Davis" well then all he needs is 6 more MVPs, 5 more Rings, and 9 more Finals :lol #GoodLuckAD

[Phoenix]

Lebron's physical makeup is unbelievable. He's never had a single major injury or surgery.

He's probably the most athletic person to ever live.

Even Wilt got hurt.

He's on a very short list for sure, at least in terms of what I've seen in my lifetime across the spectrum of sports.

[MadDog]

My point is AD was considered the 5th-10th best player, depending on the year, his entire prime until this year where he suddenly is being called Kareem or Hakeem, the best player in the NBA, etc. When you look at who the people pushing this are fans of it is obvious what is going on.

Look at the post above that says AD>Curry. No one would say that a year ago.

And what was LeBron in 2019? :confusedshrug: Both he and AD played around 50 something games last year. The truth is they feed off each other and make one another better. Otherwise a perfect duo.

[Roundball_Rock]

I would have to give push back on AD being top 5 before LeBron. Many top 10 lists on ISH in 2019 had him outside of the top 10 and not a single one had him in the top 5.

But, if AD is supposed to be "Kareem-Davis" well then all he needs is 6 more MVPs, 5 more Rings, and 9 more Finals :lol #GoodLuckAD

2018 was his best year in New Orleans. LeBron, Harden, Durant, Curry were better but I would slot him in 5th.

Yeah, a lot of the people calling him Kareem didn't even have him top 10 a year ago as someone pointed out when they bumped that thread. :lol

AD and PG were traded at the same time. The Clippers probably gave up more to get PG than the Lakers did for AD. Now AD is Kareem and PG is a bum.


And what was LeBron in 2019?

A GOAT candidate. :confusedshrug:

[MadDog]

2018 was his best year in New Orleans. LeBron, Harden, Durant, Curry were better but I would slot him in 5th.

Yeah, a lot of the people calling him Kareem didn't even have him top 10 a year ago as someone pointed out when they bumped that thread. :lol

AD and PG were traded at the same time. The Clippers probably gave up more to get PG than the Lakers did for AD. Now AD is Kareem and PG is a bum.



A GOAT candidate. :confusedshrug:

If you're a blind stan of his, sure. You mentioned where AD was relative to the league. But in 2019 LeBron wasn't anywhere close to the best player.

[guy]

That is a legit point but I had this discussion with guy months ago. It wouldn't net out the way MJ fans assume it would. For every Penny, there is a Rose. For every KJ, there is an IT. For every Price, there is an Arenas. Etc.


I don't remember exactly how that convo went, but its incredibly stupid to just use "HOF" when we can use that year's all-stars/all-nba/and even all-defensive maybe with some obvious exceptions (i.e. 97 and 98 Rodman, 16 Kyrie). If you look at it series by series, competition and teammates, Jordan and Lebron aren't much different on an average per series basis. Another thing they do is not take into how many times they actually faced (facing Barkley 3x for some reason counts the same as facing Dirk 1x).

Just rattling off HOFers, not taking into account their level of play at the time, how many times they faced them and also the fact that Lebron has played in 12 more playoff series then Jordan when people just look raw number of HOFers is pretty dumb.

[Roundball_Rock]

If you're a blind stan of his, sure. You mentioned where AD was relative to the league. In 2019, LeBron wasn't anywhere close to the best player either.

A bit before he got hurt, on 12/6/18 the Ringer had LeBron 4th and Kareem 5th. https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/12/6/18127965/top-25-nba-players-first-25ish-games

AD was in the NBA for close to a decade and the KAJ talk only came after he joined LeBron, mysteriously nearly exclusively from MJ/Kobe fans. :oldlol:

[MadDog]

Yeah, when he was injured. What was he prior to that when healthy? 2nd in MVP in 18' and battling KD for the best player crown.

AD was in the NBA for close to a decade and the KAJ talk only came after he joined LeBron, mysteriously nearly exclusively from MJ/Kobe fans. :oldlol:

He and AD were both injured and played the same number of games. Nothing changed except health and them teaming up. And 2018? :oldlol: Davis led LeBron in PER and equaled him in winshares. Again, basically the same deal now except that AD outscores LeBron and is clearly a better. They both benefit playing alongside one another, like I said :confusedshrug:

[AlternativeAcc.]

He's on a very short list for sure, at least in terms of what I've seen in my lifetime across the spectrum of sports.

He's numero uno and its not remotely close. Theres nobody you can mention that's in the same ballpark

[3ball]

My point is AD was considered the 5th-10th best player, depending on the year, his entire prime until this year



AD's stature improved because he went to a lottery team and led them statistically to the Finals

You're just perceiving it wrong






it is obvious what is going on.



the idea that lebron elevates teammates has no factual basis.. he carried 1-star teams a couple times in a 1-star conference, and otherwise had super-teams with established super-stars...

He never actually elevated anyone or saw anyone increase alongside him - Ingram, Love, Hughes, Bosh, Jamison, Rose, IT, Crowder, Hood, and many more - were reduced by lebron.

only a couple elite shooters did well (Mo and Kyrie)






My point is AD was considered the 5th-10th best player, depending on the year, his entire prime until this year



Lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. talent-based winning struggles on the championship level, thus lowering long run championship expectation.. lower expectation = inferior player

Lebron simply has a ball-dominant skillset that prevents the best strategy (ball movement), so he isn't good at beating Finals teams, thereby lowering his team's long run championship odds compared to Jordan, Kobe, Bird and others.. lower long run expectation = inferior player..

brands that are good at beating Finals teams > brands that are good at beating 2nd round winners
.

[k 96]

Lehype James needed the 2012 Lock out NBA season, and the 2020 COVID-19 Shortened season to win TWO of his 4 NBA Championships. Talk about having a huge ATRISK next to his record.