I'll give bron stans credit they've definitely changed the narrative

[Bronbron23]

While everyone knows making it to the finals is relatively a great accomplishment it was never looked at as an accomplishment when discussing greatness. Nobody ever brought up magics or birds runner up loses, it was just about the chips. If you asked larry bird how proud he was of his runner ups he'd probably look at you with disgust and ignore the question. They've done it though. They've actually convinced men not to think like men and believe that losing is something to celebrate. Jim kelly was born in the wrong era:facepalm

[red1]

While everyone knows making it to the finals is relatively a great accomplishment it was never looked at as an accomplishment when discussing greatness. Nobody ever brought up magics or birds runner up loses, it was just about the chips. If you asked larry bird how proud he was of his runner ups he'd probably look at you with disgust and ignore the question. They've done it though. They've actually convinced men not to think like men and believe that losing is something to celebrate. Jim kelly was born in the wrong era:facepalm

4x finals MVP



https://monetary-metals.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/gstandard.png

[MaxPlayer]

Well the entire narrative that "conference championships are bad" was only created in the first place as an attempt to discredit LeBron.

[Bronbron23]

4x finals MVP



https://monetary-metals.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/gstandard.png

Now see i can actually agree with that. 4 fmvp is no joke and definitely something to celebrate.

[red1]

Now see i can actually agree with that. 4 fmvp is no joke and definitely something to celebrate.

might get another one

[red1]

I think he'll get carried to at least one ring too. he's playing until he's 40.

[Bronbron23]

Well the entire narrative the "conference championships are bad" was only created in the first place as an attempt to discredit LeBron.

I dont remember ever phrased that way. There was a narrative that he couldn't win on the biggest stage because he kept losing but that was just idiots hating. He obviously didn't have a great team. The only questionable loss during that period was against Howard.

[Bronbron23]

might get another one

He may. 5 puts him tied with mj imo. I give him extra credit for 16

[Roundball_Rock]

While everyone knows making it to the finals is relatively a great accomplishment it was never looked at as an accomplishment when discussing greatness. Nobody ever brought up magics or birds runner up loses, it was just about the chips. If you asked larry bird how proud he was of his runner ups he'd probably look at you with disgust and ignore the question. They've done it though. They've actually convinced men not to think like men and believe that losing is something to celebrate. Jim kelly was born in the wrong era:facepalm

True, but they learned from MJ stans. Before MJ people didn't ring count. Oscar was a GOAT candidate with "only" 1 ring, and that was a sidekick ring. Oscar isn't even considered top 10 now. Wilt was a GOAT candidate with "only" 2 rings. Even MJ himself was crowned GOAT with 3 rings.

When MJ got to 6 that is when MJ stans conveniently started pushing rings.

Now we are seeing LeBron fans do the same with finals appearances. I was surprised in the ESPN survey that 28% said 10 finals appearances>6 rings.

The argument is more like what you see in the Olympics. 4 golds, 6 silvers versus 6 golds.


Well the entire narrative that "conference championships are bad" was only created in the first place as an attempt to discredit LeBron.

This is true as well. Before LeBron no one said going to the finals was bad. This is true to this day--except for LeBron. No one said Butler's legacy is dinged by losing in the finals (other than Nick Wright saying it to mock MJ stans). MJ stans themselves will bring up Ewing, Miller, Malone, Stockton losing in the finals and how awesome that makes them (never mentioning Ewing, Miller made it only because MJ retired). Even Drexler. People bring up his finals losses and don't even remember he won a chip.

Finals appearances won't get LeBron past MJ, though. They need to get people to start valuing longevity more. If LeBron has 18 or 19 dominant seasons and MJ 11 when it is all said and done that will make it tough for the MJ case. He could still be argued (correctly IMO) as better but the discussion is GOAT, not BOAT.

[Bronbron23]

True, but they learned from MJ stans. Before MJ people didn't ring count. Oscar was a GOAT candidate with "only" 1 ring, and that was a sidekick ring. Oscar isn't even considered top 10 now. Wilt was a GOAT candidate with "only" 2 rings. Even MJ himself was crowned GOAT with 3 rings.

When MJ got to 6 that is when MJ stans conveniently started pushing rings.

Now we are seeing LeBron fans do the same with finals appearances. I was surprised in the ESPN survey that 28% said 10 finals appearances>6 rings.

The argument is more like what you see in the Olympics. 4 golds, 6 silvers versus 6 golds.



This is true as well. Before LeBron no one said going to the finals was bad. This is true to this day--except for LeBron. No one said Butler's legacy is dinged by losing in the finals (other than Nick Wright saying it to mock MJ stans). MJ stans themselves will bring up Ewing, Miller, Malone, Stockton losing in the finals and how awesome that makes them (never mentioning Ewing, Miller made it only because MJ retired). Even Drexler. People bring up his finals losses and don't even remember he won a chip.

Finals appearances won't get LeBron past MJ, though. They need to get people to start valuing longevity more. If LeBron has 18 or 19 dominant seasons and MJ 11 when it is all said and done that will make it tough for the MJ case. He could still be argued (correctly IMO) as better but the discussion is GOAT, not BOAT.

Mj stans definitely have their own agendas. I do think mj is the best player I've ever seen play but i dont just use rings as the only reason. Its probably my second though. Eye test is the biggest for me than chips, accolades and stats. No one criteria is accurate by itself but all 4 is a pretty good way imo.

[ELITEpower23]

So if making a finals is not an accomplishment then what the heck have any of the guys Jordan beat in the Finals ever done? That was supposed to be their one achievement.

Charles Barkley made one finals his whole career, Malone and Stockton made 2, and Gary Payton 1. Now are you going to take that accomplishment away from them? So you're telling me Michael Jordan really did beat the weakest teams in NBA history?

[insidious301]

Magic making the finals for most of the 80s definitely helped his legacy. Not a whole lot and I don't have a quantitative measure however it matters. Generally rings are important, but also secondary to individual play. I am of the opinion, like many here, that LeBron will equal Jordan in "GOAT" if he were to win 5 titles. One less than Jordan although that would mean LeBron is lkely elite at 36+ which would also mean uncharted territory. Maybe not with career totals however LeBron's longevity in per game production and ring count will his greatest weapon.

[ArbitraryWater]

While everyone knows making it to the finals is relatively a great accomplishment it was never looked at as an accomplishment when discussing greatness. Nobody ever brought up magics or birds runner up loses, it was just about the chips. If you asked larry bird how proud he was of his runner ups he'd probably look at you with disgust and ignore the question. They've done it though. They've actually convinced men not to think like men and believe that losing is something to celebrate. Jim kelly was born in the wrong era:facepalm


Are u ok?

[Bronbron23]

So if making a finals is not an accomplishment then what the heck have any of the guys Jordan beat in the Finals ever done? That was supposed to be their one achievement.

Charles Barkley made one finals his whole career, Malone and Stockton made 2, and Gary Payton 1. Now are you going to take that accomplishment away from them? So you're telling me Michael Jordan really did beat the weakest teams in NBA history?

Its hard to beat champions when your the ultimate champ. The only reason bron beat champions is because he allowed them to be champs in the first place. Your really gonna penalize mj because he didn't allow anyone else to be champion?

[Roundball_Rock]

Mj stans definitely have their own agendas. I do think mj is the best player I've ever seen play but i dont just use rings as the only reason. Its probably my second though. Eye test is the biggest for me than chips, accolades and stats. No one criteria is accurate by itself but all 4 is a pretty good way imo.

Yeah, but you aren't an idiot like most MJ stans. :lol They simply count rings.


So if making a finals is not an accomplishment then what the heck have any of the guys Jordan beat in the Finals ever done? That was supposed to be their one achievement.

Charles Barkley made one finals his whole career, Malone and Stockton made 2, and Gary Payton 1. Now are you going to take that accomplishment away from them? So you're telling me Michael Jordan really did beat the weakest teams in NBA history?

Exactly. Hence why they prop up those players precisely based on those finals appearances. The excuse is they "lost to Jordan." That is BS but let's put that aside for the moment. "Jordan" could be in only one conference at a given time. "Jordan" was even gone from the league several times (you can't blame "Jordan" for losing in 94', for instance).

How does "Jordan" explain Malone/Stockton--a top 20 and a top 30 AT player who spent their entire primes together--"only" making 2 finals? Payton was on a Sonics contender for many years. 1 finals trip. How? Payton was awesome, they hype Kemp a lot (you would think Kemp>Payton from the hype :oldlol: ). 1 finals trip? Barkley. 1 finals in his career. Go on down the line.

These guys are heroes for making 1-2 finals but LeBron making 10 is not an accomplishment? :confusedshrug:

[insidious301]

Magic making the finals for most of the 80s definitely helped his legacy. Not a whole lot and I don't have a quantitative measure however it matters. Generally rings are important, but also secondary to individual play. I am of the opinion, like many here, that LeBron will equal Jordan in "GOAT" if he were to win 5 titles. One less than Jordan although that would mean LeBron is lkely elite at 36+ which would also mean uncharted territory. Maybe not with career totals however LeBron's longevity in per game production and ring count will his greatest weapon.

I will clarify a couple of things in my post. When I say making the finals, I am talking about finals appearances. Obviously winning helped Magic's legacy a ton but just finals appearances? They helped but not a whole lot. Losing only carries so much weight.

[Hey Yo]

While everyone knows making it to the finals is relatively a great accomplishment it was never looked at as an accomplishment when discussing greatness. Nobody ever brought up magics or birds runner up loses, it was just about the chips. If you asked larry bird how proud he was of his runner ups he'd probably look at you with disgust and ignore the question. They've done it though. They've actually convinced men not to think like men and believe that losing is something to celebrate. Jim kelly was born in the wrong era:facepalm
If you asked Bird if he'd rather play in the Finals with a chance of winning a title or watch the Finals from home with zero chance of winning, he'd probably ask you if you're a stupid-fucc.

[Bronbron23]

If you asked Bird if he'd rather play in the Finals with a chance of winning a title or watch the Finals from home with zero chance of winning, he'd probably ask you if you're a stupid-fucc.

But nobody is arguing that. Of course its better to make it and have a chance. If you lose though it dosnt end up meaning much more than if you lost in an earlier round.

[Roundball_Rock]

But nobody is arguing that. Of course its better to make it and have a chance. If you lose though it dosnt end up meaning much more than if you lost in an earlier round.

Sure it does. Why do MJ stans always talk about finals losses of Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Payton, Miller, etc. if it doesn't? They specifically single out that they got to the finals (and lost). They don't talk about playoff appearances, second round appearances, or even conference finals appearances. Only finals appearances.

So clearly making the finals is seen as different than losing in earlier rounds.

[insidious301]

Sure it does. Why do MJ stans always talk about finals losses of Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Payton, Miller, etc. if it doesn't? They specifically single out that they got to the finals (and lost). They don't talk about playoff appearances, second round appearances, or even conference finals appearances. Only finals appearances.

So clearly making the finals is seen as different than losing in earlier rounds.

It matters, but by how much? Say two players are equal in style of play and in numbers but one has a FMVP/ring and the other just has a finals appearance. How much separation does the winner have?

[Bronbron23]

Sure it does. Why do MJ stans always talk about finals losses of Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Payton, Miller, etc. if it doesn't? They specifically single out that they got to the finals (and lost). They don't talk about playoff appearances, second round appearances, or even conference finals appearances. Only finals appearances.

So clearly making the finals is seen as different than losing in earlier rounds.

Im sure mj stans have but thats b.s. malone and barkley if anything have just as much of a negative stigma around them for losing then they do for making it to the finals. Shaq crushes barkley on a regular about it.

And its definitely better its just not much better

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree with you both--winning a ring>>>making a finals. All I am saying is the finals was always viewed as an achievement and still is--as long as the player in question is not LeBron. Look at Butler and all the props he is getting for losing in the finals. Why not Jokic and Tatum for losing one round earlier?

The OP was about narrative, though. LeBron stans have had a shocking level of success in shifting the narrative. 28% said 10 finals>6 rings in the MJ vs. LeBron ESPN panel poll. It should be 1% IMO :oldlol: .

[light]

While everyone knows making it to the finals is relatively a great accomplishment it was never looked at as an accomplishment when discussing greatness. Nobody ever brought up magics or birds runner up loses, it was just about the chips. If you asked larry bird how proud he was of his runner ups he'd probably look at you with disgust and ignore the question. They've done it though. They've actually convinced men not to think like men and believe that losing is something to celebrate. Jim kelly was born in the wrong era:facepalm

Magic and Bird had loaded teams starting as rookies.

If they were able to make it to the finals with some of LeBron's teams then people would've absolutely been just as impressed with them.

So no one changed the narrative. Nobody talked about it before because nobody did it before. LeBron's taking his sh-t teams to the finals is and will always be incredibly impressive.

[coin24]

4/10 is a losing record.. LeFail

[SouBeachTalents]

OP is obsessed with this topic, holy shit :lol