Karl Malone at 36 in the playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/oSxEowVkrLo

About 3 months shy of 37.

Make of it what you will.

[highwhey]

man he was automatic from mid range. impressive body control too, he managed to finish even through contact. you'd think someone as strong as him he'd truck people in his way but he had some good balance.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea. Whatever I may think of his all time ranking nobody ever saw me dispute his finishing in traffic, hands, or ability to square up. If he developed more of that touch when he was still athletic his career may have turned out differently. Karl was a whole different player on his youth. More force of nature than polished scorer.

[RRR3]

Wait isn’t he your most hated player of all time?

[Kblaze8855]

He’s on the short list. But I don’t have to like him to acknowledge he was exceptional and his game justifies some attention.

[red1]

He was another physical specimen. in the top 1% for durability

[Roundball_Rock]

Amazing longevity. Being a gym rat paid off.

[Phoenix]

Guy didn't play less than 80 games ( exception 99 lockout year) until his 19th season at 41. Crazy.

[eliteballer]

Funny how Dirk has a more favorably viewed legacy than Malone when Malone was easily better.

[AussieSteve]

Funny how Dirk has a more favorably viewed legacy than Malone when Malone was easily better.

Agreed, although I think Dirk has more and better notable playoff performances. And Dirk's game elevated his team more imo

[Roundball_Rock]

Funny how Dirk has a more favorably viewed legacy than Malone when Malone was easily better.

Malone is always ahead of Dirk all-time, though, even if fans remember Dirk more favorably.

[AirBonner]

Malone is built like a bodybuilder. I find it hard to believe he maintained that muscle mass naturally while constantly running around. Even LeBron thins out as the season goes on

[eliteballer]

Malone is built like a bodybuilder. I find it hard to believe he maintained that muscle mass naturally while constantly running around. Even LeBron thins out as the season goes on

Malone was a lumbering post player for a while by this point...not running full court on fast breaks and throwing down facials from the ft line.

[eliteballer]

Even LeBron

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/33391469/so-you-have-accepted-the-truth.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

Karl was better all around due to defense but the comparison really comes down to which Malone you mean as well. 90 Karl has advantages over Dirk 99 Karl doesnt even though both were roughly MVP level. The more polished old Karl didn’t have the same physical edge or quickness though he was still quicker than his build suggested.

And Dirks edge is being one of the few shooters good enough to not need to be open or even have good play calls or playmakers. He made “You can’t defend that...” shots at a good rate. When Karl fell back on his jumper as the main weapon he was dangerous as the video in the op showed...but it wasn’t as on demand as Dirk. If Karl could hit those fadeaways the way peak Dirk could he would have been far more reliable under pressure.

And yes I do remember when Dirk was considered unreliable under pressure for the record.

[eliteballer]

Kblaze, when are you going to post a thesis on Len Bias?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480460-Len-Bias

[RRR3]

Malone‘s production fell off so much in the playoffs though. Dirk’s didn’t. That has to be considered.

[Reggie43]

He was such a fundamentally sound and smart team player that it was hard not to root for him those years. The way he adapted his game to be effective as he got older and maintain his level of play is insane.

[light]

https://youtu.be/oSxEowVkrLo

About 3 months shy of 37.

Make of it what you will.

That was the first game of the playoffs. Certainly a great game. Malone put up his career playoff scoring high at age 36.

He averaged 25/9/3 the rest of the way and lost to Portland in the 2nd round.

I can imagine LeBron scoring 50 in the playoffs next year.

[nayte]

He’s on the short list. But I don’t have to like him to acknowledge he was exceptional and his game justifies some attention.

It’s amazing how so many people can’t do this

[Sportal]

Wonder how long it will take to see people like this with really good fundamentals, and money mid-range.

[IllegalD]

Funny how Dirk has a more favorably viewed legacy than Malone when Malone was easily better.

Because Dirk won a ring with Jason Terry or Tyson Chandler as his 2nd best player while Malone couldn't win a ring even though he had John Stockton by his side his entire career and then later tried to jump on the Lakers dynasty coattails. I have KG ahead of Malone/Barkley for those same reasons. You "90s is da BESTEST era" nerds need to just let it go. Winning matters.

[tpols]

Malone never had the shooting ability or dominant clutchness of Dirk. In fact his reputation was the opposite ~ "the mailman doesn't deliver on Sunday". Karl could never win with the casts Dirk won with ~ Jason Terry and Josh Howard being his best running mates. Give Nowitzki John Stockton for his whole career he wins in 2006, 2011, and probably one other year.

[SouBeachTalents]

Malone never had the shooting ability or dominant clutchness of Dirk. In fact his reputation was the opposite ~ "the mailman doesn't deliver on Sunday". Karl could never win with the casts Dirk won with ~ Jason Terry and Josh Howard being his best running mates. Give Nowitzki John Stockton for his whole career he wins in 2006, 2011, and probably one other year.
Which years in the 90's do you think Dirk wins with the Jazz?

[Xiao Yao You]

Because Dirk won a ring with Jason Terry or Tyson Chandler as his 2nd best player while Malone couldn't win a ring even though he had John Stockton by his side his entire career and then later tried to jump on the Lakers dynasty coattails. I have KG ahead of Malone/Barkley for those same reasons. You "90s is da BESTEST era" nerds need to just let it go. Winning matters.

Dirk had a better coach. Who's the coach when he plays with Stockton?

[tpols]

Which years in the 90's do you think Dirk wins with the Jazz?

The Jazz made the playoffs every single year from 1984 to 2003. And in the 90s often had super high seeds. I think Dirk squeezes at least 1 ring out of that.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Jazz made the playoffs every single year from 1984 to 2003. And in the 90s often had super high seeds. I think Dirk squeezes at least 1 ring out of that.
Any year jump out to you specifically? He would've have to bypass either Jordan or peak Hakeem, no easy task. I guess '94 would've been his best shot

[Xiao Yao You]

The Jazz made the playoffs every single year from 1984 to 2003. And in the 90s often had super high seeds. I think Dirk squeezes at least 1 ring out of that.

who's the coach? Who's the owner? Who's the supporting cast? Jazz had two great players. Overrated or bad coach(Layden), cheap owner, etc.

[dankok8]

Dirk in place of Malone wouldn't win a single title either. Malone is a way way better defender than Dirk which is very important for a big man. He's also a better rebounder, passer, and ballhandler. Scoring is close though I'd go with Dirk for his higher efficiency.

[Roundball_Rock]

Dirk in place of Malone wouldn't win a single title either. Malone is a way way better defender than Dirk which is very important for a big man. He's also a better rebounder, passer, and ballhandler. Scoring is close though I'd go with Dirk for his higher efficiency.

Agreed. Malone simply was the better overall player. Dirk is more efficient in the playoffs but Malone still beats him in every other facet of the game.


Any year jump out to you specifically? He would've have to bypass either Jordan or peak Hakeem, no easy task. I guess '94 would've been his best shot

I doubt it. The Jazz lost 4-1 to the Rockets. Dirk isn't turning that from a loss that bad to a win. Even if someone thinks Dirk>Malone, the gap can't be large to any sane person (not counting ttrols, who thinks Ewing>LeBron).

[tpols]

Any year jump out to you specifically? He would've have to bypass either Jordan or peak Hakeem, no easy task. I guess '94 would've been his best shot

Sure besting older Jordan or Hakeem is no easy task but neither is besting Dwayne Wade and Lebron James on the same team.

I don't think it's impossible they beat the late 90's Bulls once... Go look for yourself. Out of the 12 games they played they were all close except 1. These games were all coming down to a bucket or two razor thin margins. And we often saw Karl wasn't the best "go to" clutch player. He's a great player, but that's not his sphere. Dirk put up GOAT clutch performances in some of his runs. A Dirk Stockton Pick and Pop would be absurdly effective, and Rodman's antics won't phase Dirk like they did a shit talking, muscle guy in Malone. A quiet assassin, he'll just keep shooting over the top ala Bird. And give the Jazz infinitely better spacing with his 3 pt shooting.

[leKING]

Is tpols legit retarded? Malone gave Rodman fits. There is zero indication Dirk would do better. And he isn't a tenth tbe defender that Malone was.

[Xiao Yao You]

Sure besting older Jordan or Hakeem is no easy task but neither is besting Dwayne Wade and Lebron James on the same team.

I don't think it's impossible they beat the late 90's Bulls once... Go look for yourself. Out of the 12 games they played they were all close except 1. These games were all coming down to a bucket or two razor thin margins. And we often saw Karl wasn't the best "go to" clutch player. He's a great player, but that's not his sphere. Dirk put up GOAT clutch performances in some of his runs. A Dirk Stockton Pick and Pop would be absurdly effective, and Rodman's antics won't phase Dirk like they did a shit talking, muscle guy in Malone. A quiet assassin, he'll just keep shooting over the top ala Bird. And give the Jazz infinitely better spacing with his 3 pt shooting.

would Sloan let Dirk shoot 3's or would he be shooting in the same range Karl was? When they got Jeff Malone he was supposed to help spread the floor so Karl could work down low. Spacing wasn't yet in the basketball vocabulary. Unfortunately Jeff didn't get more than 12-15 feet from the basket! One of the many reasons why they were a different team with Horny

[tpols]

would Sloan let Dirk shoot 3's or would he be shooting in the same range Karl was? When they got Jeff Malone he was supposed to help spread the floor so Karl could work down low. Spacing wasn't yet in the basketball vocabulary. Unfortunately Jeff didn't get more than 12-15 feet from the basket! One of the many reasons why they were a different team with Horny

Jerry Sloan is one of the best coaches ever... I'm sure he'd let Dirk shoot. Karl Malone literally made 0 3's in that whole playoff run. His shot isn't made for 3's like Dirk's high arcing perfect rainbow form. I dont think there's some big difference between the two, but Nowitzki came into the league in 1999 and was almost immediately taking more 3's than just about any 7 foot player to ever play the game. Smart coaches adjust to their personel. I'm not going to doubt Sloan's ability to work with what he's got.

[Reggie43]

Dirk in the Golden age of Big men is not winning anything. Part of what made him great for his era was the rule changes which allowed him to break free throw records in the playoffs because of his swingman type game for a 7 footer. What happens if defenders are allowed to be more physical? He was great on offense but how would he handle the elite two way players of the time? Pretty sure his defense would be exposed even more especially by the all time great players that played the same position.

[dankok8]

Sure besting older Jordan or Hakeem is no easy task but neither is besting Dwayne Wade and Lebron James on the same team.

I don't think it's impossible they beat the late 90's Bulls once... Go look for yourself. Out of the 12 games they played they were all close except 1. These games were all coming down to a bucket or two razor thin margins. And we often saw Karl wasn't the best "go to" clutch player. He's a great player, but that's not his sphere. Dirk put up GOAT clutch performances in some of his runs. A Dirk Stockton Pick and Pop would be absurdly effective, and Rodman's antics won't phase Dirk like they did a shit talking, muscle guy in Malone. A quiet assassin, he'll just keep shooting over the top ala Bird. And give the Jazz infinitely better spacing with his 3 pt shooting.

Dirk would also allow a layup line at the other end of the court. You don't seem to realize that Karl was anchoring that Utah defense after Mark Eaton left. The only other serviceable big they had was Greg Ostertag who was kind of a scrub. And Stockton was already a fringe all-star by 1997 and a role player by 1998 ala Jason Kidd in 2011. 2011 Mavs wouldn't beat any championship version of the Chicago Bulls. It's laughable to suggest otherwise. It took a historic choke from Lebron for the Mavs to win that series. Against the Bulls, Dirk would face a guy much better than him in Jordan who had a second option (Pippen) better than his own.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jerry Sloan is one of the best coaches ever... I'm sure he'd let Dirk shoot. Karl Malone literally made 0 3's in that whole playoff run. His shot isn't made for 3's like Dirk's high arcing perfect rainbow form. I dont think there's some big difference between the two, but Nowitzki came into the league in 1999 and was almost immediately taking more 3's than just about any 7 foot player to ever play the game. Smart coaches adjust to their personel. I'm not going to doubt Sloan's ability to work with what he's got.

one of the winningest coaches. Job security and all time greats don't make you great. Nice guy though! The only time Sloan adjusted to his personnel was the year after Stockton and Malone left. Probably his best coaching job. As soon as they got Deron he went back to his old ways. It was his way or the highway.

[ArbitraryWater]

Any year jump out to you specifically? He would've have to bypass either Jordan or peak Hakeem, no easy task. I guess '94 would've been his best shot


probably '97 and '98.

Jazz producted was lacking in crunch time and they lost several close games, Dirk kills those off.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk would also allow a layup line at the other end of the court. You don't seem to realize that Karl was anchoring that Utah defense after Mark Eaton left. The only other serviceable big they had was Greg Ostertag who was kind of a scrub. And Stockton was already a fringe all-star by 1997 and a role player by 1998 ala Jason Kidd in 2011. 2011 Mavs wouldn't beat any championship version of the Chicago Bulls. It's laughable to suggest otherwise. It took a historic choke from Lebron for the Mavs to win that series. Against the Bulls, Dirk would face a guy much better than him in Jordan who had a second option (Pippen) better than his own.


Dirk never was a layup line in his life, stop over-dramatizing things.

[tpols]

Dirk in the Golden age of Big men is not winning anything. Part of what made him great for his era was the rule changes which allowed him to break free throw records in the playoffs because of his swingman type game for a 7 footer. What happens if defenders are allowed to be more physical? He was great on offense but how would he handle the elite two way players of the time? Pretty sure his defense would be exposed even more especially by the all time great players that played the same position.

Dirk torched peak Tim Duncan in the playoffs with his best teammate being josh howard. In 2006, Shaq, one year removed from 2nd place MVP consideration, killed Ben Wallace in the ECFs and didn't do shit in the Finals against "Erika" Dampier. Point is they'd let some hired goon take the big men of that era, and put Dirk on the PFs that couldnt do anything besides hustle and rebound. Put Dirk on Rodman defensively. What's Rodman going to do? He has no scoring skillset.

It's funny to me... because Reggie Miller was 6'7 180 lbs soaking wet, and he survived in that era as a shooter and off ball player, in an extremely prolific manner. I'm a couple inches shorter than him and 20 lbs heavier and am still skinny as hell. Yet he survived but Dirk couldn't? Give me a break.

Dirk has totally sonned many legends of the game... Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Durant... and so on.

He'd dominate any era.

[Reggie43]

Dirk torched peak Tim Duncan in the playoffs with his best teammate being josh howard. In 2006, Shaq, one year removed from 2nd place MVP consideration, killed Ben Wallace in the ECFs and didn't do shit in the Finals against "Erika" Dampier. Point is they'd let some hired goon take the big men of that era, and put Dirk on the PFs that couldnt do anything besides hustle and rebound. Put Dirk on Rodman defensively. What's Rodman going to do? He has no scoring skillset.

It's funny to me... because Reggie Miller was 6'7 180 lbs soaking wet, and he survived in that era as a shooter and off ball player, in an extremely prolific manner. I'm a couple inches shorter than him and 20 lbs heavier and am still skinny as hell. Yet he survived but Dirk couldn't? Give me a break.

Dirk has totally sonned many legends of the game... Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Durant... and so on.

He'd dominate any era.

Surviving and winning a ring are two vastly different things. Miller's type if success is judged differently from those guys because they are Mvp level players and the Goats for their position while Miller is a tier or two below.

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk torched peak Tim Duncan in the playoffs with his best teammate being josh howard.

Go look at the 01, 03, 06, and I think 09 Spurs/Mavs series numbers and tell me again you think Duncan got scorched.

Duncan had some of the best number of his career vs the mavs and Dirks best series wasn’t like....outside what you expect an all time elite scoring forward to do in 45 minutes a game.

Scorched feels like more than 19-25 points a game. His big series wasn’t shocking exactly. Not for him. Kinda like Karl. Karl scoring 27 a game for a series isn’t noteworthy. That’s noteworthy for like Larry Johnson or Lamarcus Aldridge or someone like that.

[Horatio33]

Malone never had the shooting ability or dominant clutchness of Dirk. In fact his reputation was the opposite ~ "the mailman doesn't deliver on Sunday". Karl could never win with the casts Dirk won with ~ Jason Terry and Josh Howard being his best running mates. Give Nowitzki John Stockton for his whole career he wins in 2006, 2011, and probably one other year.

Stockton had some terrible games in the playoffs. 97 Sonics with Gary Payton absolutely ripped Stockton to shreds.

Some mediocre guards played Stockton to a draw in some playoff series.

[Roundball_Rock]

Dirk would also allow a layup line at the other end of the court. You don't seem to realize that Karl was anchoring that Utah defense after Mark Eaton left. The only other serviceable big they had was Greg Ostertag who was kind of a scrub. And Stockton was already a fringe all-star by 1997 and a role player by 1998 ala Jason Kidd in 2011. 2011 Mavs wouldn't beat any championship version of the Chicago Bulls. It's laughable to suggest otherwise. It took a historic choke from Lebron for the Mavs to win that series. Against the Bulls, Dirk would face a guy much better than him in Jordan who had a second option (Pippen) better than his own.

Great points. We can't overemphasize 11' because it is a freak case due to LeBron choking. The Heat would have won under normal circumstances.

The obsession is scoring but even if we grant Dirk a small edge (which is legit, based on his efficiency and greater PO reliability), is Dirk even the better player to generate points overall for the team? Malone was a better passer, better rebounder (you need to get the ball first to score...). This isn't even getting to D where Malone blows Dirk away.

Both are top 20 AT but one is clearly better.


Scorched feels like more than 19-25 points a game. His big series wasn’t shocking exactly.

On ISH if you didn't score 30 you were Ben Wallace as a scorer. :oldlol:

[r0drig0lac]

The Jazz made the playoffs every single year from 1984 to 2003. And in the 90s often had super high seeds. I think Dirk squeezes at least 1 ring out of that.no way

[tpols]

Go look at the numbers

Oh trust me I have.... you know I know the splits.

I broke out my laptop, my calculator, and put my reading glasses on. You want numbers? 2006? I have them. Dirk put up 27/13 on 128 ORTG and +21 splits. Duncan? 32/11 on 122 ORTG and +11 splits. Not only did Dirk outrebound Duncan, not only did Dirk outproduce Duncan, Dirk had a lower (better) DRTG than TIM DUNCAN. Every single one of Dirk's teammates had negative splits. Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Josh Howard, Devin Harris... they were all in the negative. The kicker? "Erika" Dampier who played significant minutes, had AMAZING splits. He played incredible. That's probably why Shaq was so salty over him. You never heard the big diesel give Ben Wallace a nickname... because he's a bully and only picks on the weak. But either way Dampier played great.

Regardless and in conclusion, in that particular series, Dirk dragged a cast of inefficient bums to a win when Tim Duncan had Manu absolutely popping off. Elite production. Elite defense. Elite efficiency. The guy who single handedly handed the perennially Gold winning Olympic USA team their first L in decades. That was Duncan's help.

But it wasn't enough to overcome the Dirk "The Don Corleone" Nowitzki.

[NBAGOAT]

I usually disagree with tpols but dirks defense isn’t that bad and Karl’s no defensive anchor. keep in mind he also played in a tougher era to play defense. Dirks main weakness on defense was defending pnr and dealing with quick perimeter guys.

His goat lvl shooting just makes him better than Malone imo even as a worse defender. He makes any guard a threat off the dribble so him so obviously Stockton would be even better and has an elite isolation game unlike Malone. Malone is a better interior scorer. I wouldn’t say he’s necessarily enough to squeeze out a title but it’s worth debating

[sdot_thadon]

He was a beast,......but man **** Karl Malone!:mad:

[Ghost1]

@eliteballer


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71cfiHopYLL._AC_SL1024_.jpg
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/karlm.jpg
https://images.daznservices.com/di/library/sporting_news/48/f5/karl-malone_1movpnpn5syr10kl8dyji4ekg.jpg?t=-56990649&quality=90

[Kblaze8855]

Oh trust me I have.... you know I know the splits.

I broke out my laptop, my calculator, and put my reading glasses on. You want numbers? 2006? I have them. Dirk put up 27/13 on 128 ORTG and +21 splits. Duncan? 32/11 on 122 ORTG and +11 splits. Not only did Dirk outrebound Duncan, not only did Dirk outproduce Duncan, Dirk had a lower (better) DRTG than TIM DUNCAN. Every single one of Dirk's teammates had negative splits. Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Josh Howard, Devin Harris... they were all in the negative. The kicker? "Erika" Dampier who played significant minutes, had AMAZING splits. He played incredible. That's probably why Shaq was so salty over him. You never heard the big diesel give Ben Wallace a nickname... because he's a bully and only picks on the weak. But either way Dampier played great.

Regardless and in conclusion, in that particular series, Dirk dragged a cast of inefficient bums to a win when Tim Duncan had Manu absolutely popping off. Elite production. Elite defense. Elite efficiency. The guy who single handedly handed the perennially Gold winning Olympic USA team their first L in decades. That was Duncan's help.

But it wasn't enough to overcome the Dirk "The Don Corleone" Nowitzki.

So in the one series of like 4 that you choose to acknowledge you post that Tim put up 32/11 and Dirk 27/12 to act like he was outproduced?

That’s getting “scorched”?

Losing because Manu committed arguably the dumbest foul in history doesn’t mean you got destroyed personally.

[Carbine]

Jesus this place is dumb. Thank god Kevin is here setting people straight via logic.

[tpols]

So in the one series of like 4 that you choose to acknowledge you post that Tim put up 32/11 and Dirk 27/12 to act like he was outproduced?

That’s getting “scorched”?

Losing because Manu committed arguably the dumbest foul in history doesn’t mean you got destroyed personally.

I never said scorched. I said torched.

+21 to +11 on similar production with less help is torched. Especially when people act like Dirk can't hang with the greats.

And yes... beating peak Duncan with those bums shooting and defending how they did while hanging +21 splits is a flame. Manu had the exact same splits as Duncan. +11 both ways. He messed up one play? Dirk's teammates messed up dozens leading up to that. :lol I seen Duncan miss a title winning layup so focusing on one play isn't going to do you any favors.



https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody is getting personally scorched or torched or singed over plus minus splits. What the hell is wrong with...

You know what?

Let me go back to assembling this bed I just had delivered. This isn’t gonna consume my afternoon.

[tpols]

i agree there are better things to do.

[Carbine]

Title clinching shot? The dishonest rewriting history has to stop. WTF is wrong with you?

They were down 88-90, with 50 seconds left in the game. I hope there is no explanation needed as to why that isn't a "title winning lay up"

[sdot_thadon]

Title clinching shot? The dishonest rewriting history has to stop. WTF is wrong with you?

They were down 88-90, with 50 seconds left in the game. I hope there is no explanation needed as to why that isn't a "title winning lay up"

This.....wtf is that dude smoking

[Roundball_Rock]

Nobody is getting personally scorched or torched or singed over plus minus splits. What the hell is wrong with...

Ttrolls deceptively presents those in a way where people will assume they are plus-minus. What he is doing is taking ORTG and DRTG and calculating the difference. So Dirk having a 128 ORTG and 107 DRTG in the series, to this idiot, means he was +21 per game (which would be GOAT-level impact :oldlol: ). His actual plus-minus per game for the series...+2.4.

[Kblaze8855]

Karl scores 61 when he find out he was snubbed as an all star starter in favor of AC Green:


https://youtu.be/F61ZFEm7Eo0



Anything in that 61 fill you with awe?

[Charlie Sheen]

Karl scores 61 when he find out he was snubbed as an all star starter in favor of AC Green:


https://youtu.be/F61ZFEm7Eo0



Anything in that 61 fill you with awe?
In that? Nothing I'm "OH SHIT" about... but he was still beating his man down the floor just as easily as he was in this vid 10 years later.