The gap between 11' Dirk and his 2nd option... versus the gap between MJ and Pip

[3ball]

.
PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
11' Terry....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031

93' Jordan... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
93' Pippen... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187

92' Jordan... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
92' Pippen... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048

91' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
91' Pippen... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 1.4........... 0.6............ 0.136

96' Jordan... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
96' Pippen... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122

97' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
97' Pippen... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090

98' Jordan... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
98' Pippen... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095



Conclusion - Jordan had 6 carry-job rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:

[Kblaze8855]

Jason Terry wasn’t the second best basketball player on that team. He was the second leading scorer. But I know you don’t make a distinction between ppg and basketball so....whatever. But put he and Chandler on the open market at the same time. See who gets a big offer first.

[Doranku]

:oldlol:. He was the second leading scorer. But I know you don’t make a distinction between ppg and basketball so....whatever. But put he and Chandler on the open market at the same time. See who gets a big offer first.

:biggums:

[3ball]

Jason Terry wasn’t the second best basketball player on that team. He was the second leading scorer. But I know you don’t make a distinction between ppg and basketball so....whatever. But put he and Chandler on the open market at the same time. See who gets a big offer first.

Terry was 2nd in the advanced stats like PER and WS/48

Kidd basically tied Terry in BPM and VORP, with no scoring while Terry was 2nd option

If we used a combination of Terry and Kidd - it makes no difference

Btw, Horace led pippen in everything for the 93' run, but I still went with pippen

[tpols]

Jason Terry wasn’t the second best basketball player on that team. He was the second leading scorer. But I know you don’t make a distinction between ppg and basketball so....whatever. But put he and Chandler on the open market at the same time. See who gets a big offer first.

Terry definitely played like the 2nd best player on the team. Tyson Chandler is nice but they didn't have anybody outside Dirk who could make a move besides Terry and Barea. With how Jet shot the ball, and how clutch he was when it mattered most... that's harder to replace than a poor man's rudy gobert. Tyson Chandler was a cast away before he joined Dallas.

I shit you not... in the 2010 playoffs, Tyson Chandler averaged 3/2.

:roll:

Jason Kidd made Tyson Chandler... he bird fed him alley oops all day.

Jason Terry was better than him Kidd, and Marion all though they were all nice.

[3ball]

Guys, we're talking VORP, BPM, PER, and WS/48

Terry was 2nd in all of these stats, and ppg

edit: he was basically tied with Kidd in VORP and BPM

Regardless, it's actually MORE amazing that the gap between Dirk and low guys like Terry is smaller than the gap between MJ and a so-called star like pip... way smaller

[Phoenix]

Man, even Dirk is in the crosshairs.

[3ball]

Man, even Dirk is in the crosshairs.

Did you look at the numbers?

Dirk's run in 2011 is considered a carry-job, but his BPM was only 1.1 more than his sidekick, compared to 7-13 more for MJ in his 6 title runs

[RRR3]

Man, even Dirk is in the crosshairs.
No one is safe

[3ball]

Did you look at the numbers?

Dirk's run in 2011 is considered a carry-job, but his BPM was only 1.1 more than his sidekick, compared to 3-10 more for MJ in his 6 title runs




^^^ edit

and one of the stats is wrong in the OP.. the gap in bpm for 91 MJ/Pip is 8.1, not 1.4

[NBAGOAT]

Tysons defense was the difference maker for that team to get over the hump. And yea you’ve completely lost it even going after dirk now. I thought you be more secure

[Roundball_Rock]

Tysons defense was the difference maker for that team to get over the hump. And yea you’ve completely lost it even going after dirk now. I thought you be more secure

You are a smart guy. You expected him to be secure? He posts a daily thread dissing Pippen because he is insecure MJ didn't win without him and another daily thread dissing LeBron because he is insecure that LeBron may be the real GOAT.

[Kblaze8855]

Terry definitely played like the 2nd best player on the team. Tyson Chandler is nice but they didn't have anybody outside Dirk who could make a move besides Terry and Barea. With how Jet shot the ball, and how clutch he was when it mattered most... that's harder to replace than a poor man's rudy gobert. Tyson Chandler was a cast away before he joined Dallas.

I shit you not... in the 2010 playoffs, Tyson Chandler averaged 3/2.

:roll:

Jason Kidd made Tyson Chandler... he bird fed him alley oops all day.

Jason Terry was better than him Kidd, and Marion all though they were all nice.


Jason Terry was better than Kidd at shooting and nothing else. Kidd was still guarding guys like KD and Lebron and Marion would have been hard to win that ring without too. They definitely don’t win without Chandler either.

Fans just just such trouble getting their heads around basketball not being purely a shooting contest. I’m betting coaches would go Dirk then Chandler or Kidd. Jason Kidd not shooting doesn’t mean he was straight role player status. He was doing like 12ppg on the Suns at one point.

[3ball]

Jason Terry was better than Kidd at shooting and nothing else. Kidd was still guarding guys like KD and Lebron and Marion would have been hard to win that ring without too. They definitely don’t win without Chandler either.

Fans just just such trouble getting their heads around basketball not being purely a shooting contest. I’m betting coaches would go Dirk then Chandler or Kidd. Jason Kidd not shooting doesn’t mean he was straight role player status. He was doing like 12ppg on the Suns at one point.

The OP is only going by the stats, aka BPM, PER, VORP and WS/48

Terry was 2nd in all of these stats, and ppg

edit: he was basically tied with Kidd in VORP and BPM

Regardless, it's actually MORE amazing that the gap between Dirk and low guys like Terry is smaller than the gap between MJ and a so-called star like pip... way smaller

Dirk's run in 2011 is considered a carry-job, but his BPM was only 1.1 more than his sidekick, compared to 3-10 more for MJ in his 6 title runs

[dankok8]

On the 2011 Mavs I'd pick Dirk then Chandler then Terry/Kidd/Marion in some order.

[red1]

You do realize you haven't convinced anyone, right 3ball?

[red1]

Jason Terry was better than Kidd at shooting and nothing else. Kidd was still guarding guys like KD and Lebron and Marion would have been hard to win that ring without too. They definitely don’t win without Chandler either.

Fans just just such trouble getting their heads around basketball not being purely a shooting contest. I’m betting coaches would go Dirk then Chandler or Kidd. Jason Kidd not shooting doesn’t mean he was straight role player status. He was doing like 12ppg on the Suns at one point.

This is a fact. It was kidd marion and chandler that anchored their defense and had the biggest impact outside of dirk.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jason Terry was better than Kidd at shooting and nothing else. Kidd was still guarding guys like KD and Lebron and Marion would have been hard to win that ring without too. They definitely don’t win without Chandler either.

Fans just just such trouble getting their heads around basketball not being purely a shooting contest. I’m betting coaches would go Dirk then Chandler or Kidd. Jason Kidd not shooting doesn’t mean he was straight role player status. He was doing like 12ppg on the Suns at one point.

You‘re wrong on this one.

Terry‘s role was harder to fill than Kidd‘s.

Kidd was nice but he was a pretty standard PG at that moment.

No need to romanticize things.

Terry meanwhile played like a fringe all star, 6MOY type.

[Phoenix]

Did you look at the numbers?

Dirk's run in 2011 is considered a carry-job, but his BPM was only 1.1 more than his sidekick, compared to 7-13 more for MJ in his 6 title runs

Not really. I'm just curious as to why Dirk is in your sights all of a sudden.

[Hey Yo]

Terry was 2nd in the advanced stats like PER and WS/48

Kidd basically tied Terry in BPM and VORP, with no scoring while Terry was 2nd option

If we used a combination of Terry and Kidd - it makes no difference

Btw, Horace led pippen in everything for the 93' run, but I still went with pippen
Which means Wade's piss poor defense let Terry go off.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jason Terry was better than Kidd at shooting and nothing else. Kidd was still guarding guys like KD and Lebron and Marion would have been hard to win that ring without too. They definitely don’t win without Chandler either.

Fans just just such trouble getting their heads around basketball not being purely a shooting contest. I’m betting coaches would go Dirk then Chandler or Kidd. Jason Kidd not shooting doesn’t mean he was straight role player status. He was doing like 12ppg on the Suns at one point.

Agree. Chandler's defense was vital to the team and he was their second most important player. Kidd ran the offense and had a vital role too, albeit less important than Chandler's. People overhype PPG. Let's be real: if Terry isn't on the roster his 16 PPG doesn't disappear from the team's offense. His shots and scoring would be distributed among the other players. Maybe they don't make the whole 16 PPG up among Dirk, Marion, Kidd, and the others but they probably make up 80-90% of it.

Who fills Kidd's facilitator role or Chandler's defensive anchor role? They had no other Chandler type for defense. Barea is a big drop-off as a facilitator from Kidd.

[red1]

You‘re wrong on this one.

Terry‘s role was harder to fill than Kidd‘s.

Kidd was nice but he was a pretty standard PG at that moment.

No need to romanticize things.

Terry meanwhile played like a fringe all star, 6MOY type.

No he isnt. Kidd was better.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Not really. I'm just curious as to why Dirk is in your sights all of a sudden.
Its not about Dirk, it's about the narrative that dirk carried scrubs to a title (which isn't true)

He's just shedding light on how great/deep the mavs were (similar to 2019 Raptors) and undermining his poorly thought out 'point'. (Jordan caried)

All he's doing is proving teams dont need a high scoring 2nd option to be stacked or great. Thats a false narrative that only casuals run with.

Another laughable backfire by OP

[red1]

Chandler was also more impactful than terry.

[DMAVS41]

Jason Terry wasn’t the second best basketball player on that team. He was the second leading scorer. But I know you don’t make a distinction between ppg and basketball so....whatever. But put he and Chandler on the open market at the same time. See who gets a big offer first.

While I agree that Tyson was more valuable than Terry on that team.

The NBA literally did that and basically nobody wanted Chandler prior to Dallas. We got him for like Najera and Damp's expiring iirc.

[ArbitraryWater]

No he isnt. Kidd was better.

I might get behind the idea of Chandler being more valuable, but not Kidd.

Why Kidd?

Like I said, he was an average NBA PG at that time.

Smart, savy, great defender, game manager, but not even an elite playmaker anymore. Couldn‘t create out of the half court to save his life.

Popped an open 3 every now and then.

Terry meanwhile carried a legit scoring load.

[red1]

I might get behind the idea of Chandler being more valuable, but not Kidd.

Why Kidd?

Like I said, he was an average NBA PG at that time.

Smart, savy, great defender, game manager, but not even an elite playmaker anymore. Couldn‘t create out of the half court to save his life.

Popped an open 3 every now and then.

Terry meanwhile carried a legit scoring load.

He played great defense. I remember his impact. Marion same thing.

[DMAVS41]

Agree. Chandler's defense was vital to the team and he was their second most important player. Kidd ran the offense and had a vital role too, albeit less important than Chandler's. People overhype PPG. Let's be real: if Terry isn't on the roster his 16 PPG doesn't disappear from the team's offense. His shots and scoring would be distributed among the other players. Maybe they don't make the whole 16 PPG up among Dirk, Marion, Kidd, and the others but they probably make up 80-90% of it.

Who fills Kidd's facilitator role or Chandler's defensive anchor role? They had no other Chandler type for defense. Barea is a big drop-off as a facilitator from Kidd.

As much as I didn't like Terry for many years, he was more valuable than Kidd and Marion on that team. IIRC he scored nearly 18 a game in the playoffs, had a really nice finals, and most importantly...it was the crunch time play of the Dirk/Terry combo that was so key in winning. Most of the games in that run were close late...and those two guys absolutely torched teams. Yes, Dirk made life super easy on Terry, but he stepped up and made big plays consistently.

I'd give the edge to Tyson in terms of value, although it is close imo, but Terry is getting under-rated here and people are forgetting how the Mavs won that title. They won it with historic crunch time play and Terry was a big part of why that team did that.

Also, offense for the Mavs was simply better than the defense. The Mavs led the playoffs in offensive rating by a large margin and were middle of the pack defensively.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jason Terry was better than Kidd at shooting and nothing else. Kidd was still guarding guys like KD and Lebron and Marion would have been hard to win that ring without too. They definitely don’t win without Chandler either.

Fans just just such trouble getting their heads around basketball not being purely a shooting contest. I’m betting coaches would go Dirk then Chandler or Kidd. Jason Kidd not shooting doesn’t mean he was straight role player status. He was doing like 12ppg on the Suns at one point.
Blaze I agree with you that fans put an overemphasis on scoring compared to other facets of the game, but I felt like Terry was the Mavs 2nd best player in that postseason, especially in the Finals. When Dirk was struggling scoring in that series, which he did on multiple occasions before the 4th, Terry was there to pick up the scoring slack in a way nobody else on Dallas was capable of doing. He scored several timely baskets in the 4th in Games 2, 4 & 5, including the dagger 3 to win Game 5, then in what imo was his most impressive feat of the series, lead the Mavs to a halftime lead in Game 6 with Dirk going 1/12 in the first half

[Kblaze8855]

It’s the Ben Gordon vs Kirk Hinrich question. Only with Kirk being maybe the smartest point ever and a notch worse on D due to age. Terry, Gordon, Lou Williams and so on vs the Rondo, Mark Jackson, old Kidd types who might not score anything but run the game?

Fans always get wide eyed at 17-18 points off the bench but coaches gush over defense, play calling, tempo, and all that.

It isn’t a question with a definitive answer. After all Rick literally kicked Rondo off the team 5 years ago and had people saying he didn’t belong in the nba. And here he is now having just won a ring having taken over an elimination game at times.

Lot of factors.

[DMAVS41]

This is a fact. It was kidd marion and chandler that anchored their defense and had the biggest impact outside of dirk.

No, it isn't a fact.

That defense that is being admired right now was nowhere near as good as the offense of that team. Those guys deserve a lot of credit, but you guys are off on this one. The 11 Mavs won mainly off of the offense and more specifically crunch time play. The defense was good, but nothing special at all.

[tpols]

It was kidd marion and chandler that anchored their defense and had the biggest impact outside of dirk.


Well yea... if you're going to compare 3 guys to 1, that mattered more but thats an absurd argument.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Play this game with 2019 Kawhi and I'm sure Jordan fails. 2006 Dirk is most likely better then 2011 Dirk. The difference in winning a title and choking was Jason Kidd, he added the defense/playmaking/floor general presence that the 06 mavs didn't have. So i would consider Jason Kidd the 2nd best player. Last time I checked, Kidd also has better advanced stats then 2019 Lowry.

[3ball]

Not really.



^^^ TLDR: Dirk's BPM was 1.2 higher than his sidekick in the 2011 Playoffs, compared to 3 to 10 higher for MJ on the 6 title runs

Dirk's PER was 4.9 higher than his sidekick in the 2011 Playoffs, compared to 7 to 13 for MJ on the 6 title runs






I'm just curious as to why Dirk is in your sights all of a sudden.


Someone said "the only 1-star teams to win is the 11' Mavs and Hakeem rockets"

So I had to show that the word "star" must be backed up by production, otherwise it's just a meaningless label..

if MJ is carrying a team far more than Dirk ever did, then Jordan had 6 carry-job rings regardless of whether pippen has plaques that say he's a star

[DMAVS41]

Play this game with 2019 Kawhi and I'm sure Jordan fails. 2006 Dirk is most likely better then 2011 Dirk. The difference in winning a title and choking was Jason Kidd, he added the defense/playmaking/floor general presence that the 06 mavs didn't have. So i would consider Jason Kidd the 2nd best player. Last time I checked, Kidd also has better advanced stats then 2019 Lowry.

Tyson was way more important than Kidd.

Kidd was on the 08/09/10 rosters...they lost in the first round twice and did nothing noteworthy in that time. Dirk was a 27/10/3 efficient monster on offense...so I assume you are blaming Kidd for getting so little out of those teams then...right?

[DMAVS41]

Nobody with a brain thinks Terry was a Pippen level player.

[Kblaze8855]

While I agree that Tyson was more valuable than Terry on that team.

The NBA literally did that and basically nobody wanted Chandler prior to Dallas. We got him for like Najera and Damp's expiring iirc.


And you paid Eric Dampier the money you wouldn’t give Nash to begin with. What you’re worth before you prove yourself isn’t that important. They let Terry Walk with nothing but a 3/15 offer to match. Chandler got 50 something and won DPOY with the Knicks looking competent for the first time in years.

Chandler definitely came out of Dallas a bigger deal than Terry though of course age is a factor.

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody with a brain thinks Terry was a Pippen level player.


I promise you....3ball does.

[3ball]

It’s the Ben Gordon vs Kirk Hinrich question. .




^^^ I remember when Larry Hughes demolished them in the 05' 1st Round alongside Arenas

Then Lebron stole Hughes and used him to beat Arenas in 06'.. (colluding to simply make the playoffs lol)

Indeed, lebron missed the 05' playoffs with the East all-star center, and only made the 06' playoffs by adding a guy that was getting peak pippen accolades on both sides of the ball, plus the future COY (top 5 defense)

Lebron should've stayed in Cleveland and his 1-seeded league favorite would've been ridiculously experienced and further augmented in 11' - they easily destroy Dirk's 1-star bum team

[DMAVS41]

And you paid Eric Dampier the money you wouldn’t give Nash to begin with. What you’re worth before you prove yourself isn’t that important. They let Terry Walk with nothing but a 3/15 offer to match. Chandler got 50 something and won DPOY with the Knicks looking competent for the first time in years.

Chandler definitely came out of Dallas a bigger deal than Terry though of course age is a factor.

I was talking before Dallas. Pretty much nobody wanted Chandler. After the title...of course his value was completely different...and rightly so.

You won't get an argument from me on the other stuff. I'm way more negative on Nellie and Cuban than you are in terms of team building.

[NBAGOAT]

^^^ TLDR: Dirk's BPM was 1.2 higher than his sidekick in the 2011 Playoffs, compared to 3 to 10 higher for MJ on the 6 title runs

Dirk's PER was 4.9 higher than his sidekick in the 2011 Playoffs, compared to 7 to 13 for MJ on the 6 title runs




Someone said "the only 1-star teams to win is the 11' Mavs and Hakeem rockets"

So I had to show that the word "star" must be backed up by production, otherwise it's just a meaningless label..

if MJ is carrying a team far more than Dirk ever did, then Jordan had 6 carry-job rings regardless of whether pippen has plaques that say he's a star

So Hakeem 94 is next how wonderful. Ps all those people forgot 03 Duncan. That’s a bigger carryjob than mj too and you won’t have a very good statistical case against it.

Also it’s Aba but dr.j basically beat 4 all stars by himself in 76.

[3ball]

So Hakeem 94 is next how wonderful. Ps all those people forgot 03 Duncan. That’s a bigger carryjob than mj too and you won’t have a very good statistical case against it.

Also it’s Aba but dr.j basically beat 4 all stars by himself in 76.
True... Parker and Ginobili weren't stars in 03' - they weren't all-stars until 06' and contributed little compared to Duncan on the 03' run..

Similarly, pippen wasn't a star in 91' and had the biggest deficit anyone's ever had to their #1 option.. The 90's Bulls were considered 1-man teams at the time, despite pippen's all-nba accolades - pippen's weak stats were simply inflated by the winning spotlight.

In the playoffs, Jordan doubled pippen's scoring average and assisted 30% more often - he averaged 10-30 more than pippen in every series - no one in history had such a big gap over his 2nd option, so all 6 of Jordan's rings were 1-star teams, by any statistical measure - see the OP

Otoh, Hakeem's ring doesn't count because he didn't have to play the best team.. it's like Houston winning in 17' and 18' - people would be saying harden > lebron

[Young X]

This is a perfect example of fans not having a defensive mentality. Pippen struggled often offensively in the playoffs, but it's his defense that made him great.

It's like when fans see a low scoring game and they automatically think both teams are playing bad.

Whenever you're watching a game, don't just look at made and missed shots. You can struggle to score and still play well.

[AirBonner]

Pippen >>>> Terry

[3ball]

This is a perfect example of fans not having a defensive mentality. Pippen struggled often offensively in the playoffs, but it's his defense that made him great.

It's like when fans see a low scoring game and they automatically think both teams are playing bad.

Whenever you're watching a game, don't just look at made and missed shots. You can struggle to score and still play well.

We know that the "defense" argument is bullshit because AD is a better defender and if he scored like Pippen, the Lakers would lose in the 1st round

[Drygon]

Fun fact: 34-year-old Jason Terry was a 6th man coming off the bench while Pippen is allegedly superstar player.

[light]

That really doesn't matter because as Dirk said at the time under normal circumstances they would not have been able to beat the Heat.

[Drygon]

Which means Wade's piss poor defense let Terry go off.

What? LeBron's piss poor defense is how Terry went off. Don't drag Wade's name through the mud.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHtuQIJ1F1U&t

[ralph_i_el]

Per doesn't really account for defense very well.

[Round Mound]

3-ball so Jason Terry was a better player than Pippen? I am not a Lebron fan or Jordan fan but even you must admit you are going too far. From the era that i watched Jordan is the best but he did have the best 2nd option than the rest of the 90's superstars and stars.

[Roundball_Rock]

3-ball so Jason Terry was a better player than Pippen? I am not a Lebron fan or Jordan fan but even you must admit you are going too far. From the era that i watched Jordan is the best but he did have the best 2nd option than the rest of the 90's superstars and stars.

According to MJ stans, everybody is a better player than Pippen. :lol This is what they do: they hide behind a specific player or two in a given thread but ask yourself this. When, if ever, have you seen MJ stans arguing Pippen was better than anyone?

Moreover, these same Pippen critics/MJ stans, do you see them say a negative word about any 90's player who was not a teammate of MJ?

The are a delusional fan base and LeBron is breaking them more year by year.

[Drygon]

Per doesn't really account for defense very well.

per is certainly not perfect like any other metric.

It still doesn't look good in Pippen's favour.

[MadDog]

Pippen's defense is brought up often, but he wasn't impacting games like a bigman. It simply gets overrated by LeBron fans. They know their deity can't score like Jordan or carry teams on offense so they cope with the "defense" argument. Pippen wasn't Tim Duncan. Stop it :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

How about doing the same exercise with MJ stain darling John Stockton and see if MJ stains will stand by their obsession with PPG or hypocritically flip flop? Let's cover the same time frame.

1991: Malone 30, Stockton 18
1992: Malone 29, Stockton 15
1993: Malone 24, Stockton 13
1994: Malone 27, Stockton 14
1995: Malone 30, Stockton 18
1996: Malone 27, Stockton 11
1997: Malone 26, Stockton 16
1998: Malone 26, Stockton 11

Damn, and Stockton was the second best sidekick of that era. How weak was MJ's comp if the sidekicks on those teams were Stockton and Starks--both 14-15 PPG scorers in the playoffs for their primes