How much does "EYE TEST" weigh into the GOAT debate?

[insidious301]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9GgxarCxrs&ab_channel=Balthus23

I have been watching many old games recently and came across this nice Jordan montage. The moves here are stunning. Not only was Jordan supremely skilled and athletic, but he moved like a cat. No real weaknesses. How much does that weigh into the "GOAT" debate exactly? From my vantage point, its different than claiming someone like Iverson is GOAT. Mainly because Jordan's game, while aesthetically pleasing, also had the impact, numbers and winning to support your trained eye. Watching Jordan is like getting a glimpse of the ultimate kaiser. Jordan wasn't playing the game of basketball, basketball was playing his game.

[iamgine]

Don't watch montage or highlights. Watch full games.

The other day, I watched Celtics vs Lakers playoff game in the 1980s. I noticed Larry Bird would have long stretches where he didn't even touch the ball. Like straight up they don't even include him for many possessions. Like he's Caldwell Pope or something.

[StrongLurk]

Vids like these are why I get annoyed when people try to say Kobe was better than Mike at ANYTHING.

"Kobe is more skilled", "Kobe is better at making tough shots"...all that is bullshit. MJ's skills is equal to Kobe's at a minimum and MJ made shots/layups that Kobe could only dream of making.

[insidious301]

Don't watch montage or highlights. Watch full games.

The other day, I watched Celtics vs Lakers playoff game in the 1980s. I noticed Larry Bird would have long stretches where he didn't even touch the ball. Like straight up they don't even include him for many possessions. Like he's Caldwell Pope or something.

In my OP I mentioned old games, not just montages. I came across this video after watching 92 Bulls/Knicks Game 7. Highlights never hurt anyone though.


Vids like these are why I get annoyed when people try to say Kobe was better than Mike at ANYTHING.

"Kobe is more skilled", "Kobe is better at making tough shots"...all that is bullshit. MJ's skills is equal to Kobe's at a minimum and MJ made shots/layups that Kobe could only dream of making.

The video is one of the best compilations I have ever seen. Its like watching Mozart LIVE in concert.

[Mauzah]

Vids like these are why I get annoyed when people try to say Kobe was better than Mike at ANYTHING.

"Kobe is more skilled", "Kobe is better at making tough shots"...all that is bullshit. MJ's skills is equal to Kobe's at a minimum and MJ made shots/layups that Kobe could only dream of making.

Yah I don't get it people act like Jordan was Tony Allen for jump shooting when really he was one of the GOAT midrange shooters the game has ever seen. Combine that with his athletic ability and it just becomes beyond stupid.

And that dunk at 7:50, damn!

[StrongLurk]

Yah I don't get it people act like Jordan was Tony Allen for jump shooting when really he was one of the GOAT midrange shooters the game has ever seen. Combine that with his athletic ability and it just becomes beyond stupid.

And that dunk at 7:50, damn!

Let's be real, the only people who talk shit about MJ are people who never saw him play in real time or are completely ignorant about him.

[Micku]

Vids like these are why I get annoyed when people try to say Kobe was better than Mike at ANYTHING.

"Kobe is more skilled", "Kobe is better at making tough shots"...all that is bullshit. MJ's skills is equal to Kobe's at a minimum and MJ made shots/layups that Kobe could only dream of making.

Kobe did take tougher shots.
It just that MJ had better shot selection and was better at getting space. He was more quick to make a move, and the height of his jumpshots man. It was like he was hovering sometimes.

I dunno if Kobe is more skilled than MJ. They are about equalish. Kobe had better ball handling skills tho and more range in his shot. MJ was the superior athletic, took better shots and was better off the ball.

We don't have the stats of finishing at the rim with MJ till he was old. He wasn't really finishing at the rim with a higher percentage than Kobe when they were about the same age. But that could also because of the era.

Like MJ in 97 finished around 51% at the rim in the RS. He was about 33/34.

Kobe finished 33 and 34, 69% both times in 2012 and 2013.

[iamgine]

In my OP I mentioned old games, not just montages. I came across this video after watching 92 Bulls/Knicks Game 7. Highlights never hurt anyone though.

Naw, highlights hurts everyone's perception. It's fun to see but not useful.

[insidious301]

Naw, highlights hurts everyone's perception. It's fun to see but not useful.

I'd argue its better to have reels than to not have them at all. Many 80s Jordan games aren't available for example, so that's where they help.

[Kblaze8855]

As a kid it was all stats and ball watching mostly offense. As I aged it became mostly observations and watching the whole floor on both ends. Especially help d and off ball movement and positioning. I’d say both changes come with maturity.

The very day you come up with a stat people learn to manipulate it. Be it Wilt deciding to lead the league in assists or shoot godly percentages or bigs like Tree Rollins and later Zo having guards intentionally feed them guards to block, or tip rebounds, refusing to shoot buzzer beaters, getting worked up over the difference between a team or personal turnover and all....

Guys can manipulate plus/minus and bet your ass the more diabolical ones know who they do and do not wanna be on the floor with at any given time and how to beat up on lackeys in blowouts. I remember a story on Shane Battier going to the Rockets on behalf of players who flat out didn’t wanna take bailout shots because they were hurting their numbers. The Rockets told them they couldn’t change nba numbers but that for their own in house evaluations wouldn’t consider end of clock situations in the efficiency reports.

That plus all the dirty tricks? Ref fooling tricks for fts, home/road stat keepers helping or hurting players like when the Lakers guy gave Nick Vanexel 23 assists as a dick move to screw the system and then got praised for it?

If you make a stat the standard players who get paid for production will modify their games to get it and people will help them.

You can’t change how good you are though. Not on a whim. You change it through effort and the difference is realized over time by those paying close attention.

Once you get past there being very few certain answers and accept it’s all just opinion?

Eye test all the way.

It isnt math deciding things. It’s skills, personality/chemistry, durability, luck, and coaching. Lose any of the 5 by a substantial amount and your team loses. You can’t measure any of them.

You can gather useful information. Can this guy make a free throw? How often does this point guard turn it over? All that.

But the abstract question of greatness will always be just that.

Abstract.

[iamgine]

I'd argue its better to have reels than to not have them at all. Many 80s Jordan games aren't available for example, so that's where they help.

I'd say it might help in some specific areas but overall it hurts perception.

[insidious301]

As a kid it was all stats and ball watching mostly offense. As I aged it became mostly observations and watching the whole floor on both ends. Especially help d and off ball movement and positioning. I’d say both changes come with maturity.

The very day you come up with a stat people learn to manipulate it. Be it Wilt deciding to lead the league in assists or shoot godly percentages or bigs like Tree Rollins and later Zo having guard intentionally feed them guards to block with, or tip rebounds, refusing to shoot buzzer beaters, getting worked up over the difference between a team or personal turnover, and all....

Guys can manipulate plus/minus and bet your add the more diabolical ones know who they do and do not wanna be on the floor with at any given time and how to beat up on lackeys in blowouts. I remember a story on Shane Battier going to the Rockets on behalf of players who flat out didn’t wanna take bailout shots because they were hurting their numbers. The Rockets told them they couldn’t change nba numbers but that for their own in house evaluations wouldn’t consider end of clock situations in the efficiency reports.

That plus all the dirty tricks? Ref fooling tricks for fts, home/road stat keepers helping or hurting players like when the Lakers guy gave Nick Vanexel 23 assists as a dick move to screw the system and then got praised for it?

If you make a stat the standard players who get paid for production will modify their games to get it and people will help them.

You can’t change how good you are though. Not on a whim. You change it through effort and the difference is realized over time by those paying close attention.

Once you get past there being very few certain answers and accept it’s all just opinion?

Eye test all the way.

It isnt math deciding things. It’s skills, personality/chemistry, durability, luck, and coaching. Lose any of the 5 by a substantial amount and your team loses. You can’t measure any of them.

You can gather useful information. Can this guy make a free throw? How often does this point guard turn it over? All that.

But the abstract question of greatness will always be just that.

Abstract.

Good post. I agree with basically all of this, except with stats. Not that they can't be manipulated, but that they're more useful to me than to you. I've seen your post history and know you aren't big on the advanced ones. I am and feel they absolutely carry weight. Specifically the ones that all paint superstars objectively. What we see is tough to quantify though, in terms weight. I know its the most important factor when evaluating a player, but you are right, its nearly impossible to give an exact measure.


I'd say it might help in some specific areas but overall it hurts perception.

Disagree. It depends on the player and what you're looking for. Generally speaking, full games aren't available to everyone and definitely not available for past eras. Highlights can only help in that regard.

[kawhileonard2]

Need to feel good at the free throw line as well.

[Kblaze8855]

As far as Mike....the eye test is all I ever needed. And it showed so much that is left out by people pushing the stupid 6/6 argument.

Jordan doesn’t need 6/6 to defend himself.

If you saw peak Mike you saw Doctor J hands, on a perfect attacking frame, that moved like Derrick Rose or Allen Iverson explosiveness wise....with unimaginable balance. Falling down shoulders always square for the jumper...40 inches up spinning to avoid a block...somehow always balanced on the release. You saw a guy moving through the air like he could slow down time and see where defenders limbs were gonna be. You saw a guy with hand eye coordination tipping bullet passes almost nobody else could react to. You saw the recovery speed. You saw broken ankles off guys trying to follow him off the ball. You saw the meanest hop steps into jumpers, layups, dunks, and drop offs. You saw one of the best ever off hands....a guy who could go hard at near full output for play after play while other world class athletes were at 70% speed after 2 times down the court. The kinda offense, to defense, to offense, to get back on D hustle only guys like AI, Westbrook, and a select few ever made look normal.

And you saw it from an absolute psycho. Will to win may be immeasurable but you watch Anthony Bennett then watch Jordan, Bird, or someone like that. It exists and it is important.

That guy wanted the W like ISH trolls on both sides want Lebron in their mouths.

You can’t understand that guy with numbers.

You see it on a regular basis or you won’t ever get it. Period.

Thats how every all time great is. But almost nobody sees them all but we insist on all time rankings anyway.

The eye test is the only way and it’s limited by the ability of the eye in question to understand what it’s seeing. So in the end....


Nobody really has these answers. So we fill in the gaps as we please like Jurassic Park scientists using frog DNA to finish dinosaurs.

What we get is flashy and fits nicely in an ESPN graphic but it’s not really what they say it is.

Half the dinosaurs had feathers in real life.

They selling trex and raptor toys for kids not worried about science.

And sports media is selling narratives to kids and child like adults. They don’t care about basketball.

But if it sells....sell it. Nobody is in business for love.

[SATAN]

I'd say it might help in some specific areas but overall it hurts perception.

Certainly never hurt Jordan

[Reggie43]

Not saying that he was the Goat but you can never put into stats how dominant Shaq was at his peak. Same with other Goat level players you need to have seen them play at the time to fully understand their impact on the game.

[baudkarma]

And you saw it from an absolute psycho. Will to win may be immeasurable but you watch Anthony Bennett then watch Jordan, Bird, or someone like that. It exists and it is important.



Bingo. That's the thing that sets MJ apart from every other athlete ever. (possible hyperbole. I do not know about every athlete ever) . But it certainly sets him apart in NBA history. Michael wanted to win more than anybody else. He wanted to win more than Chuck, more than Patrick, more than Shaq, more than Karl and DRob. That was the fire that propelled him and the Bulls to a 6-0 finals record. It's also the fire that has him bettling $300 thousand on a single golf hole. He craves competition.

[iamgine]

Disagree. It depends on the player and what you're looking for. Generally speaking, full games aren't available to everyone and definitely not available for past eras. Highlights can only help in that regard.


Certainly never hurt Jordan
Hurt our perception. It makes us think they're much better than they were. That's not useful at all except to see specific things.

If we see only the highlights of Zion, we'd think he's some kind of monster. In fact, if we see full games, he's not that good right now.

[Rysio]

Clearly it doesn't for most cuz if it did kobe would be goat on more lists.

[PeroAntic]

I feel bad for Lebron stans who are incapable of enjoying the clip in the OP. Incredible.

Of course the eye test has massive importance. Its the difference maker in the case of similar achievements/stats.

[insidious301]

Hurt our perception. It makes us think they're much better than they were. That's not useful at all except to see specific things.

If we see only the highlights of Zion, we'd think he's some kind of monster. In fact, if we see full games, he's not that good right now.

Not true. If there aren't full games of said player, like Wilt from the 60s, Kareem in the 70s or even 80s Jordan, then reels are very useful. Even with a player like Zion they are helpful. Again, full games aren't available to everyone which is why there are highlights to begin with. The main purpose of a highlight is to showcase a players skillset. Overall, film is better than just hearsay.


I feel bad for Lebron stans who are incapable of enjoying the clip in the OP. Incredible.

They'd be missing out on a great piece of art.

[Mr. Woke]

To me, King James clearly wins the eye test.

[PeroAntic]

To me, King James clearly wins the eye test.

:facepalm

[Mr. Woke]

:facepalm

You triggered boy?

[light]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9GgxarCxrs&ab_channel=Balthus23

I have been watching many old games recently and came across this nice Jordan montage. The moves here are stunning. Not only was Jordan supremely skilled and athletic, but he moved like a cat. No real weaknesses. How much does that weigh into the "GOAT" debate exactly? From my vantage point, its different than claiming someone like Iverson is GOAT. Mainly because Jordan's game, while aesthetically pleasing, also had the impact, numbers and winning to support your trained eye. Watching Jordan is like getting a glimpse of the ultimate kaiser. Jordan wasn't playing the game of basketball, basketball was playing his game.

Your "eye test" matters but it's subjective. For me LeBron was the GOAT by 2009 based on my eye test. I'd never seen anybody play like him before. He was Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson in one person, but he was bigger, stronger and more athletic than both of them!

Just unreal.

I idolized Jordan growing up and grew up a huge Jordan nerd and when he retired I thought that nobody could ever move me the way Michael Jordan did. But LeBron came out of nowhere and changed that a lot sooner than I'd ever expected.

LeBron's power and speed has always been aesthetically pleasing and his passing was and still is on another level of aesthetics and grace.

LeBron's dunks are also charismatic just by sheer force - the speed at which the ball slams through the rim on his dunks is sometimes astounding.

Another thing LeBron does which is always fascinating to watch is that he attempts very difficult things - his latest things along this line are his very deep three point shots. When he was younger he used to do a kind of spinning turn around fade away jump shot which was wild to watch.

One of the most exciting things to watch in all of basketball is LeBron going through successful heat checks - one after another after another - a never ending stream of makes which gets the crowd more and more excited each time one goes in. Jordan was easy on the eyes too from an aesthetics perspective but he never went through heat checks quite like LeBron because he was so determined to drive and somewhat against shooting threes, and consecutive layups are just not as exciting as pulling up into consecutive long threes on semi-fastbreaks.

[Mauzah]

To me, King James clearly wins the eye test.

^This guy doesn't pass the eye test.

[Mr. Woke]

^This guy doesn't pass the eye test.

You don't pass the eye test. You are a failure to the human existence.

[Mauzah]

Very meaningful words, you really got me there :roll:

[dankok8]

Regardless of one's opinion, if you watch the video in the OP and aren't in awe of what you're seeing, there's something wrong with you.

[Mr. Woke]

Very meaningful words, you really got me there :roll:

More meaningful than your entire life for sure.

Thanks for the compliment.

[scuzzy]

More meaningful than your entire life for sure.

Thanks for the compliment.
got em

[Mr. Woke]

Regardless of one's opinion, if you watch the video in the OP and aren't in awe of what you're seeing, there's something wrong with you.

It definitely impressed me. However, King James' highlights impress me more.