Article: Seven Main Reasons Why Michael Jordan is Better Than Lebron James

[dankok8]

This is my first article in a while. Please read and try to give good counterarguments. :confusedshrug: It's too long for the 5000 character limit so I attached it as a link on Google Docs.

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSj8NotCaqeFgiOJUWkxsExbkTB5764CMjbgzibYA-_AYIAzXh2llJqhHRb5wKvV_pDaK4ET6nPZ_Zu/pub

[Mr. Woke]

Cope from Jordan Stans.

King James is the GOAT.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Just need 1 reason, 6-0 in the finals.

[SATAN]

I'm one of the least intelligent people you will ever meet

We know.

[SouBeachTalents]

We know.
Textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect

[TheCorporation]

7,491 > everyone

[ArbitraryWater]

Very thinly veiled/senseless argument with the AS help.

That‘s only one side of the coin.

The other is competition.

So while LeBron had more all-stars, he also faced far more All NBA‘ers and Superstars at once, in bigger picture had far more uphill battles and underdog series‘ than Jordan. And yet, should still be tied in rings right about now considering 15 injuries and 93/97/98 officiating (98 most likely to lose).


No black marks is the never lost when favored argument.

Otherwise you can clearly point out underwhelming series‘, as for Bron.

[TheGoatest]

Whoever wrote that was typing through tears.

[SouBeachTalents]

Very thinly veiled/senseless argument with the AS help.

That‘s only one side of the coin.

The other is competition.

So while LeBron had more all-stars, he also faced far more All NBA‘ers and Superstars at once, in bigger picture had far more uphill battles and underdog series‘ than Jordan. And yet, should still be tied in rings right about now considering 15 injuries and 93/97/98 officiating (98 most likely to lose).


No black marks is the never lost when favored argument.

Otherwise you can clearly point out underwhelming series‘, as for Bron.
Tbf though Jordan has nothing even approaching 2011, that really is some WOAT level shit. And he never played as badly as LeBron did in the '07 Finals

[dankok8]

Very thinly veiled/senseless argument with the AS help.

That‘s only one side of the coin.

The other is competition.

So while LeBron had more all-stars, he also faced far more All NBA‘ers and Superstars at once, in bigger picture had far more uphill battles and underdog series‘ than Jordan. And yet, should still be tied in rings right about now considering 15 injuries and 93/97/98 officiating (98 most likely to lose).

No black marks is the never lost when favored argument.

Otherwise you can clearly point out underwhelming series‘, as for Bron.

Black marks are also getting outplayed or underperfoming even when the underdog. But yea I could have maybe combined the two arguments together.

Give me one series in which Jordan either:

A) lost as a favorite
B) was outplayed by a teammate
C) was outplayed by an opposing player
D) grossly underperformed

I don't think you can find examples that match any of these criteria. MJ was always the best player on the court and played at least close to his ability. And I say that objectively. I really don't know an example if there is one so please point me to it.

[3BallSucks]

Not reading, bran GOAT

[NBAGOAT]

Pretty well written but maybe a little too stats based haha. Love listing league average efficiency but I just default to per 100 or per 75 instead of listing raw stats and avg pace. For one minutes played matters to.

I think looking at mostly apg to evaluate playmaking is a bit flawed. Hockey assists are a factor for one. There aren’t better alternatives besides some obscure stats and some eye test stuff but I look to incorporate some plus minus impact stuff(I like those stats a lot). They can look at offensive as a whole instead of just breaking it down to points and assists and account for fit issues too like bron being worse offball

[BigtimeNBAFan]

Just need 1 reason, 6-0 in the finals.

It will always be crazy that you can lose in the first round 3x as Jordan did, lose in the second round twice as Jordan did, lose in the conference finals twice as Jordan did and not even make the playoffs twice as Jordan also did. Those are all good. Just don't lose in the finals, that is the end of the world!!!

[dankok8]

Pretty well written but maybe a little too stats based haha. Love listing league average efficiency but I just default to per 100 or per 75 instead of listing raw stats and avg pace. For one minutes played matters to.

I think looking at mostly apg to evaluate playmaking is a bit flawed. Hockey assists are a factor for one. There aren’t better alternatives besides some obscure stats and some eye test stuff but I look to incorporate some plus minus impact stuff(I like those stats a lot). They can look at offensive as a whole instead of just breaking it down to points and assists and account for fit issues too like bron being worse offball

Appreciate the feedback. I was going to post the per 75 stats but thought it would be too much stats. Like you said it's already too much. Truth is that the average pace and TS% don't really favor one guy over the other so it would be kind of redundant.

Playmaking absolutely can't be judged through assists but people always say Lebron is a way better playmaker than Jordan because of his higher assist numbers. However, in a "take the air out of the ball" mode, MJ was averaging 11 apg for almost half a season in 88-89. Likewise Lebron when forced to play off the ball like he was in Miami with Wade running the offense at times only put up 5.7 apg in the playoffs from 2011-2014 which is actually a bit below Jordan's averages. I would say Lebron is a better playmaker but it isn't a big gap. I watched MJ. He wasn't a true savant but he was a really good passer.

Plus-minus is too lineup dependent and really can give faulty conclusions because the quality of backups and matchups can have a massive impact on it. I'm not a big fan of it but know that many are.

[SouBeachTalents]

It will always be crazy that you can lose in the first round 3x as Jordan did, lose in the second round twice as Jordan did, lose in the conference finals twice as Jordan did and not even make the playoffs twice as Jordan also did. Those are all good. Just don't lose in the finals, that is the end of the world!!!
10 missed playoffs > 1 Finals loss

[NBAGOAT]

Appreciate the feedback. I was going to post the per 75 stats but thought it would be too much stats. Like you said it's already too much. Truth is that the average pace and TS% don't really favor one guy over the other so it would be kind of redundant.

Playmaking absolutely can't be judged through assists but people always say Lebron is a way better playmaker than Jordan because of his higher assist numbers. However, in a "take the air out of the ball" mode, MJ was averaging 11 apg for almost half a season in 88-89. Likewise Lebron when forced to play off the ball like he was in Miami with Wade running the offense at times only put up 5.7 apg in the playoffs from 2011-2014 which is actually a bit below Jordan's averages. I would say Lebron is a better playmaker but it isn't a big gap. I watched MJ. He wasn't a true savant but he was a really good passer.

Plus-minus is too lineup dependent and really can give faulty conclusions because the quality of backups and matchups can have a massive impact on it. I'm not a big fan of it but know that many are.

alright that makes sense then about the per 75.

[And1AllDay]

imagine only making 6 finals

like wtf were you doing the rest of your career? waiting for pippen to bail you out?


https://i.postimg.cc/v83kqbKX/bango-bango.gif

[Baller789]

Imagine losing two finals series for every three played.

[Shooter]

imagine only making 6 finals

like wtf were you doing the rest of your career? waiting for pippen to bail you out?


https://i.postimg.cc/v83kqbKX/bango-bango.gif

:roll::roll:

[2ball]

MJ stans scrounging the internet for any MJ nugget lolol

[tpols]

Listen... the bottom line is Jordan didn't have to team hop around the league when the going got tough.

After getting his ass whipped by the GOAT Celtics, Larry Bird called him God. After getting his ass whipped by a thug detroit team, whose reputation exactly matched the amount of warzone-esque black on black murder happening in the city at the time, he didn't hop ship. He didn't give up. His second option put up 10 PPG and instead of bailing to Portland to play with Clyde and Terry Porter he whooped Pippen's ass and made him tougher.

MJ won so much he quit basketball for a new challenge.

Do you honestly think MJ would derive any satisfaction from winning with top players in the league? Like if he won with Charles Barkley... would he be crying and overwhelmed with emotion?

LOL.

He'd react to that like winning a 10,000 dollar hand at a blackjack table.

[2ball]

Listen... the bottom line is Jordan didn't have to team hop around the league when the going got tough.

After getting his ass whipped by the GOAT Celtics, Larry Bird called him God. After getting his ass whipped by a thug detroit team, whose reputation exactly matched the amount of warzone-esque black on black murder happening in the city at the time, he didn't hop ship. He didn't give up. His second option put up 10 PPG and instead of bailing to Portland to play with Clyde and Terry Porter he whooped Pippen's ass and made him tougher.

MJ won so much he quit basketball for a new challenge.

Do you honestly think MJ would derive any satisfaction from winning with top players in the league? Like if he won with Charles Barkley... would he be crying and overwhelmed with emotion?

LOL.

He'd react to that like winning a 10,000 dollar hand at a blackjack table.
MJ demanded the top talent. And his teams were beyond stacked. Why would he leave?

[dankok8]

Listen... the bottom line is Jordan didn't have to team hop around the league when the going got tough.

After getting his ass whipped by the GOAT Celtics, Larry Bird called him God. After getting his ass whipped by a thug detroit team, whose reputation exactly matched the amount of warzone-esque black on black murder happening in the city at the time, he didn't hop ship. He didn't give up. His second option put up 10 PPG and instead of bailing to Portland to play with Clyde and Terry Porter he whooped Pippen's ass and made him tougher.

MJ won so much he quit basketball for a new challenge.

Do you honestly think MJ would derive any satisfaction from winning with top players in the league? Like if he won with Charles Barkley... would he be crying and overwhelmed with emotion?

LOL.

He'd react to that like winning a 10,000 dollar hand at a blackjack table.

Lebron's team hopping shows a lack of loyalty and that's why in a hypothetical draft he would always be picked behind Jordan.

The thing is that team hopping doesn't affect the GOAT conversation otherwise. My argument in the article was simply about the help that he had without considering how he obtained it. If you look at the teammates they played with, Lebron actually had more help than Jordan. Jordan never played with a guy as good as Wade in 2011 and 2012 or Davis in 2020. And Kyrie in 2016 was around Pippen's level. Not to mention Lebron also had a really good third star for many years with Bosh and Love who are both better than Horace Grant and Rodman. And the only teams he faced in his championship years that were better than what Jordan faced are the 2017 and 2018 Warriors. And nobody in their right minds will blame Lebron for those losses although in 2017 he could have played better. Getting outplayed by KD is a bad look.

To me the main argument is simply the titles as the main man.. 6 > 4 and the fact that Lebron got outplayed numerous times in the playoffs and Jordan never did. The GOAT should be the guy who never gets outplayed in his prime. What kind of GOAT gets outplayed in his prime by a bunch of players? To me that hurts Lebron's case for than anything other than just having 4 titles.

[SATAN]

Lebron's team hopping shows a lack of loyalty and that's why in a hypothetical draft he would always be picked behind Jordan.

The Cavs were an absolute joke and Dan Gilbert is a moron. Not sure how you can blame him.

[LonelyOwl]

Good read but I think you underrate LeBrons clear edge in playmaking ability and the fact that he was a more efficient scorer

I personally don't think there is a clear GOAT, both LeBron and MJ are at the top but I lean towards LeBron because of longevity and higher career value

[pauk]

Listen... the bottom line is Jordan didn't have to team hop around the league when the going got tough.

After getting his ass whipped by the GOAT Celtics, Larry Bird called him God. After getting his ass whipped by a thug detroit team, whose reputation exactly matched the amount of warzone-esque black on black murder happening in the city at the time, he didn't hop ship. He didn't give up. His second option put up 10 PPG and instead of bailing to Portland to play with Clyde and Terry Porter he whooped Pippen's ass and made him tougher.

MJ won so much he quit basketball for a new challenge.

Do you honestly think MJ would derive any satisfaction from winning with top players in the league? Like if he won with Charles Barkley... would he be crying and overwhelmed with emotion?

LOL.

He'd react to that like winning a 10,000 dollar hand at a blackjack table.

Easy to say that when you got your rosters/squads/teammates delivered to you on a silverplate.... Jordan, Bird, Magic would team hop in Lebrons situation.... especially Jordan.... https://news.yahoo.com/michael-jordan-once-pushed-bulls-181824719.html

...and its completely understandable for a player of that magnitude, they want to win, they want to see the entire organization aiming for THAT goal, that "HELP" doesnt have to happen immediately, they are patient... but if they cant see the improvement/organization going after the same goal, for years (in Lebrons case, his first 7 straight years playing with literal scrubs)... then its time to do something about it, starting with making your voice heard, an ultimatum eventually (both Kobe & Jordan did that) and if no response then do the "team hop"....

[Walk on Water]

Whoever wrote that was typing through tears.


Why? They are facts.

[dankok8]

Good read but I think you underrate LeBrons clear edge in playmaking ability and the fact that he was a more efficient scorer

I personally don't think there is a clear GOAT, both LeBron and MJ are at the top but I lean towards LeBron because of longevity and higher career value

Lebron is not a more efficient scorer. Playmaking ability I've touched on. Lebron does have better court vision but how many passes does he make in a typical game that MJ couldn't make? Jordan averaged a lot of assists when he played PG for the Bulls. Lebron had about the same assists numbers as Jordan when he played in Miami where he played off the ball more. Jordan played in the triangle and shared ballhandling duties with Pippen during their title years.

I don't think there is a GOAT either. I've written about it numerous times. But for me, Lebron is #4 all time meaning he has the 4th strongest case for GOAT.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Lebron is not a more efficient scorer. Playmaking ability I've touched on. Lebron does have better court vision but how many passes does he make in a typical game that MJ couldn't make? Jordan averaged a lot of assists when he played PG for the Bulls. Lebron had about the same assists numbers as Jordan when he played in Miami where he played off the ball more. Jordan played in the triangle and shared ballhandling duties with Pippen during their title years.

I don't think there is a GOAT either. I've written about it numerous times. But for me, Lebron is #4 all time meaning he has the 4th strongest case for GOAT.

I would also rate Lebron as #4 all time right now, below MJ, Kareem and Magic, though the gap is very narrow and its alright to place him #2 for homers. If he wins the 5th title next year, then he surpasses both Kareem and Magic for sure.

[kinjo]

Can't argue on this. Two players can't be compared as they have different qualities...Basketball (https://bbnerd.com/) is a very beautiful game.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is my first article in a while. Please read and try to give good counterarguments. :confusedshrug: It's too long for the 5000 character limit so I attached it as a link on Google Docs.

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSj8NotCaqeFgiOJUWkxsExbkTB5764CMjbgzibYA-_AYIAzXh2llJqhHRb5wKvV_pDaK4ET6nPZ_Zu/pub

Excellent, well-researched and well-reasoned article. :cheers: One question, don't you have KAJ as GOAT? Are you discussing these guys as #2/#3 then? Some general comments:

1) Playoff/Finals Averages: there LeBron has a case since he is ahead in a lot of categories. That goes away if you adjust for pace, though. I'll give MJ the edge there.
2) Better Scorer: Easily MJ.
3) More Consistent Defender: MJ again.
4) Never Lost When Favored: I agree with the general point but quibble with the claim. When Jordan's teams lost, they are deemed unworthy of winning so it becomes a self-fulfilling thing: if MJ loses, the team was inferior. In 90' they took the Pistons to 7 and in 95' the Bulls had a lot of steam and hype going into the playoffs.
5) Elevated His Teams Higher: Disagree some here. You have to compare teams relative to the comp. No other team had a "sidekick" comparable to Pippen and later the Bulls would have a third HOF player in Rodman. The comp isn't Pippen to Wade or Davis. The comps are Pippen to Starks, Smits and Wade to Westbrook or Davis to George etc. Pippen was a top 5 player in his peak years and top 7-8 for the 90's as a whole--where are the comps' sidekicks in those rankings? In LeBron's era players like Wade, Westbrook, Paul, Curry, Davis, George have been sidekicks. In the 90's the best sidekicks were Pippen, Penny (for 2 years), Dumars, Kemp, Mourning, Daugherty. There is a major difference in quality between the former six and the latter six.

I do agree his teams had a higher ceiling than LeBron's but not because he had "less help." The Heat were in the lottery without LeBron despite adding Dragic, Whiteside, Deng that year. The Bulls were basically equal to the Knicks w/out MJ.
6) No Black Marks: Generally agree with the point but you can find black marks on any player's resume, including Jordan's. He doesn't have any glaring ones like LeBron does with 2011, though.
7) Won More: That is a team outcome so I don't place much weight on it, since so many factors go into a team winning. Is KAJ a lesser player because his #2 and/or #3 options kept getting hurt in the 70's or LeBron because both went down in 15'? Would MJ be lesser if Pippen missed a finals or Grant missed an entire playoff run? Jordan had better luck than his chief rivals in terms of injury luck.

[Charlie Sheen]

This is my first article in a while. Please read and try to give good counterarguments. :confusedshrug: It's too long for the 5000 character limit so I attached it as a link on Google Docs.

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSj8NotCaqeFgiOJUWkxsExbkTB5764CMjbgzibYA-_AYIAzXh2llJqhHRb5wKvV_pDaK4ET6nPZ_Zu/pub



Jordan had a much better post game. He was famous for his fadeaways that he could shoot off of either foot. He used to torment teams in the post. Defenders were either too small and he shot over them or they were big and too slow and Jordan simply turned and beat them with his lightning quick first step.

This doesn't explain why Jordan had a better post game. You're only describing it.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ demanded the top talent. And his teams were beyond stacked. Why would he leave?

Yeah, that is a BS argument. Where would he go that was better? Listen to what we implicitly just heard: "Terry Porter was a star!". That is the point. Other contenders had guys like Porter as their second best player. The Bulls were a very favorable situation. He would have been dumb to leave.

Moreover, LeBron went to a 33 win Cavs team and a 35 win Lakers team. People act like he signed with the Spurs and Warriors in those offseasons. The only one you can legitimately dog him for is 2010.


Lebron's team hopping shows a lack of loyalty and that's why in a hypothetical draft he would always be picked behind Jordan.

Any all-time draft falls apart if you factor that in because there are so many players who changed teams. I always assume you get the entire career on the same team. Otherwise, we have to dock players like KAJ, Shaq, Wilt in addition to LeBron.


Jordan never played with a guy as good as Wade in 2011 and 2012 or Davis in 2020.

Jordan didn't play teams with Parker, Westbrook, Kawhi, Klay, Curry, Pierce as sidekicks. Jordan had "only Pippen" against Starks, Porter, Dumars, etc. Is the argument MJ's era was weak?

In 6 NBA finals, the opposing sidekick cleared 20+ PPG once (Stockton didn't even crack 10+ PPG in 98'). Pippen did it 4 of 6 times.

Pippen was a top 5 player in his peak years and for the 90's as a whole 7th or 8th. He was a MVP candidate (3rd and 5th--same as Wade and Davis ironically. As to Irving, he has never received a single MVP vote, not even a 5th place vote, and has made 2-3 all-NBA teams. Hardly dominance).

Literally no other "sidekick", other than Pippen and Penny, was a MVP candidate in that entire era. Compare Pippen to Worthy, Dumars, Porter, Daughtery, Johnson, Starks, Kemp, Penny, Stockton, Mourning, Smits. Those were the "sidekicks" on the Finals/ECF comp. Pippen is ahead of every single player all-time, with only Stockton close to him.

Irving? The comps are Klay, Millsap, Curry, Lowry, Horford. Irving will be in the middle of this pack all-time.

Wade? Deng, Terry, Pierce, Westbrook, West, Parker, Kawhi. Wade will be ahead of all of them except Kawhi--but what is more instructive is year by year. Was 12' Wade better than 12' Westbrook? 14' Wade was outplayed by half the Spurs team. 13' Wade was not exactly prime Wade.

I notice people want to compare Pippen to Wade, Irving, Davis--but avoid comparing those players to the actual "sidekicks" in their own era. Or to remove the MJ/LeBron teams. Let's have a straight up discussion on Terry Porter vs. Westbrook or Curry vs. Kevin Johnson. Why aren't those comps made?


Not to mention Lebron also had a really good third star for many years with Bosh and Love who are both better than Horace Grant and Rodman. And the only teams he faced in his championship years that were better than what Jordan faced are the 2017 and 2018 Warriors.

This is contradictory. A team with Drexler, Porter, Kersey was tougher than a team with Durant, Westbrook, Harden or prime Duncan, Parker, Manu on the Spurs or even the pre-KD Warriors with Curry, Klay, Green, Iggy? It is stacked to have Porter, Kersey as your 2nd/3rd options but Pippen/Rodman or Pippen/Grant are "run of the mill"?

If Pippen/Grant were weak, then Jordan's comp must be weak. Those were inferior teams with inferior players. That would mean, using the logic you used to argue MJ had lesser teammates, that LeBron's comp was vastly tougher.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Sorry man, but its a horrible, bush league article. It reads like a casual fan just spouting ignorant opinions and making baseless claims. None of the 7 reasons are remotely true and they're not strong arguments to begin with, even if they were true.

I know you're from Europe and have only been watching the NBA for a few years, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Atrocious 'article' though

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

Stats aside, what Jordan has easily over Lebron is his midrange shooting and killer instinct. Where as Lebron lacks but he makes up with making the right plays that lead to teammates scoring.

[nineiron]

this thread will be infested with bron stans

[dankok8]

Excellent, well-researched and well-reasoned article. :cheers: One question, don't you have KAJ as GOAT? Are you discussing these guys as #2/#3 then? Some general comments:

1) Playoff/Finals Averages: there LeBron has a case since he is ahead in a lot of categories. That goes away if you adjust for pace, though. I'll give MJ the edge there.
2) Better Scorer: Easily MJ.
3) More Consistent Defender: MJ again.
4) Never Lost When Favored: I agree with the general point but quibble with the claim. When Jordan's teams lost, they are deemed unworthy of winning so it becomes a self-fulfilling thing: if MJ loses, the team was inferior. In 90' they took the Pistons to 7 and in 95' the Bulls had a lot of steam and hype going into the playoffs.
5) Elevated His Teams Higher: Disagree some here. You have to compare teams relative to the comp. No other team had a "sidekick" comparable to Pippen and later the Bulls would have a third HOF player in Rodman. The comp isn't Pippen to Wade or Davis. The comps are Pippen to Starks, Smits and Wade to Westbrook or Davis to George etc. Pippen was a top 5 player in his peak years and top 7-8 for the 90's as a whole--where are the comps' sidekicks in those rankings? In LeBron's era players like Wade, Westbrook, Paul, Curry, Davis, George have been sidekicks. In the 90's the best sidekicks were Pippen, Penny (for 2 years), Dumars, Kemp, Mourning, Daugherty. There is a major difference in quality between the former six and the latter six.

I do agree his teams had a higher ceiling than LeBron's but not because he had "less help." The Heat were in the lottery without LeBron despite adding Dragic, Whiteside, Deng that year. The Bulls were basically equal to the Knicks w/out MJ.
6) No Black Marks: Generally agree with the point but you can find black marks on any player's resume, including Jordan's. He doesn't have any glaring ones like LeBron does with 2011, though.
7) Won More: That is a team outcome so I don't place much weight on it, since so many factors go into a team winning. Is KAJ a lesser player because his #2 and/or #3 options kept getting hurt in the 70's or LeBron because both went down in 15'? Would MJ be lesser if Pippen missed a finals or Grant missed an entire playoff run? Jordan had better luck than his chief rivals in terms of injury luck.

I wrote an article to represent Kareem's claim for GOAT but didn't say that he's GOAT. In fact, when I made a top 25 list, I had Jordan as #1 although not by a mile or something like that. Even today I flip-flop between Jordan, Kareem and Russell as the three GOAT's if I have to rank them. Lebron is entering the conversation but isn't there right now. 4 titles just doesn't cut it. I get the whole team argument but Lebron has no excuse for 2011.

4) I didn't make any excuses for Jordan. He had an all-star caliber player in Pippen beside him from 1989-90 to 1997-1998 and in 8 seasons that MJ played they won 6 titles. I didn't go into why they lost although you can hardly blame Jordan for 1990 ECF averaging 32/6/7 on good efficiency and losing in Game 7 to a better team while his sidekick had a migraine and was completely useless.

5) Pippen was the best 2nd option in the 90's. There is no doubt about it. That's why MJ won 6 titles and not like 2 or 3. But Wade in 2012, Kyrie in 2016 and Davis in 2020 were also the best 2nd options. In fact Davis was a co-1st option. Lebron wasn't really better than AD this year.

6) It's not just the 2011 Finals. Jordan never played as poorly as Lebron in 2007 Finals or 2010 Round 2. It just didn't happen. MJ never got outplayed by an opposing player.

7) Pippen was hurt in 1989 against the Pistons then again in 1990 (migraine in Game 7) then again in the 1998 Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

I wrote an article to represent Kareem's claim for GOAT but didn't say that he's GOAT. In fact, when I made a top 25 list, I had Jordan as #1 although not by a mile or something like that. Even today I flip-flop between Jordan, Kareem and Russell as the three GOAT's if I have to rank them.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying.


4) I didn't make any excuses for Jordan. He had an all-star caliber player in Pippen beside him from 1989-90 to 1997-1998 and in 8 seasons that MJ played they won 6 titles. I didn't go into why they lost although you can hardly blame Jordan for 1990 ECF averaging 32/6/7 on good efficiency and losing in Game 7 to a better team while his sidekick had a migraine and was completely useless.

It was a general comment that "Jordan never lost with a better team" or "Jordan never lost with a team capable of a chip" is self-fulfilling because if his team lost, it is automatically classified as not being chip worthy. You could do that with anyone. I agree with your core point, though: Jordan was more reliable but he also had less upsets on his ledger than LeBron. There is no 07' ECF or 16' finals on his record, for example.


5) Pippen was the best 2nd option in the 90's. There is no doubt about it. That's why MJ won 6 titles and not like 2 or 3. But Wade in 2012, Kyrie in 2016 and Davis in 2020 were also the best 2nd options. In fact Davis was a co-1st option. Lebron wasn't really better than AD this year.

Irving has made 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons (zero first teams, unlike Pippen who had the 4th most first teams in the 90's). If Irving=Pippen, that means MJ's era was much weaker since, if that is true, that means the same player racked up a lot more accolades in that era due to weak comp for those accolades.

MJ advocates frequently diminish Pippen but I never see how that squares with Pippen's standing in his era--the clear implication is the era was weak, if a player of the caliber MJ advocates paint him as was a MVP candidate, perennial all-NBA, making all-NBA over Barkley 5-6x and outpolling Malone 2x. Malone, Barkley are presented as giants but Pippen at times in their primes was ahead of them in all-NBA. Does that mean 16' Irving>94' Barkley or 96' Malone then? That a sidekick in 2016>those finals "#1" comp a year before/after they faced MJ in the 90's? LeBron never faced a player Kyrie Irving could be considered better than in any given season, until Butler this year in his 10th finals.

Westbrook was clearly better than Irving in 16'. Irving was not even all-NBA or an all-star that season. Yeah, he was hurt for 30 or so games but the comp is to Pippen. Pippen made all-NBA playing half a season--Irving couldn't. Which implies half a season of Pippen was better than full seasons of enough stars to land him on all-NBA. Not so with Irving.

In 2012, Westbrook was at least on a similar level and then had Griffin, Parker--all sidekicks who made all-NBA 2nd team (ahead of Wade, but Wade missed half the season and was on third team, along with another sidekick, Rondo). Let's put it another way, from 2011-2014 was Wade the best sidekick? Or would you rather have Westbrook or Griffin? A lot of the Wade stuff focuses on the first two years, not the last two.

Even the AD thing, PG was considered by many to be the bigger sidekick acquisition when it happened, although I agree AD is much better.


6) It's not just the 2011 Finals. Jordan never played as poorly as Lebron in 2007 Finals or 2010 Round 2

True.


7) Pippen was hurt in 1989 against the Pistons then again in 1990 (migraine in Game 7) then again in the 1998 Finals.

Case in point. There also was Game 5 of the 97' ECF where he played 7 minutes. That is 5 games in 9 playoff runs (159 games), 3 of which Pippen played a majority of the game anyway. So Pippen missed 2 games out of 159.
It is interesting that MJ advocates bring up this stuff but then don't factor those in when talking about his PPG in those series/playoff runs (not aimed at you).

Love missed almost all of the 2015 playoffs. I think he played only the first 4-5 games. Irving missed half the ECF and 85% of the finals in 15'. Then in 16', Love was so banged up he was 9/7/1 in the finals (this is called "superstar help") and missed a game altogether. In 12' Bosh missed half the playoffs, including most of their two toughest series. In 07' Hughes was banged up and useless in the ECF, finals and then missed half the finals.

Shall we continue? There is a litany for LeBron, KAJ. Jordan had so few injuries his advocates have to point to a migraine as "Exhibit A" and it is only for Pippen. How many playoff games did Grant, Rodman miss? Grant missed 0 during the 1989-1993 time frame you brought up. Rodman missed 0 as a Bull.

[nineiron]

Got it. Thanks for clarifying.



It was a general comment that "Jordan never lost with a better team" or "Jordan never lost with a team capable of a chip" is self-fulfilling because if his team lost, it is automatically classified as not being chip worthy. You could do that with anyone. I agree with your core point, though: Jordan was more reliable but he also had less upsets on his ledger than LeBron. There is no 07' ECF or 16' finals on his record, for example.



Irving has made 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons (zero first teams, unlike Pippen who had the 4th most first teams in the 90's). If Irving=Pippen, that means MJ's era was much weaker since, if that is true, that means the same player racked up a lot more accolades in that era due to weak comp for those accolades.

MJ advocates frequently diminish Pippen but I never see how that squares with Pippen's standing in his era--the clear implication is the era was weak, if a player of the caliber MJ advocates paint him as was a MVP candidate, perennial all-NBA, making all-NBA over Barkley 5-6x and outpolling Malone 2x. Malone, Barkley are presented as giants but Pippen at times in their primes was ahead of them in all-NBA. Does that mean 16' Irving>94' Barkley or 96' Malone then? That a sidekick in 2016>those finals "#1" comp a year before/after they faced MJ in the 90's? LeBron never faced a player Kyrie Irving could be considered better than in any given season, until Butler this year in his 10th finals.

Westbrook was clearly better than Irving in 16'. Irving was not even all-NBA or an all-star that season. Yeah, he was hurt for 30 or so games but the comp is to Pippen. Pippen made all-NBA playing half a season--Irving couldn't. Which implies half a season of Pippen was better than full seasons of enough stars to land him on all-NBA. Not so with Irving.

In 2012, Westbrook was at least on a similar level and then had Griffin, Parker--all sidekicks who made all-NBA 2nd team (ahead of Wade, but Wade missed half the season and was on third team, along with another sidekick, Rondo). Let's put it another way, from 2011-2014 was Wade the best sidekick? Or would you rather have Westbrook or Griffin? A lot of the Wade stuff focuses on the first two years, not the last two.

Even the AD thing, PG was considered by many to be the bigger sidekick acquisition when it happened, although I agree AD is much better.



True.



Case in point. There also was Game 5 of the 97' ECF where he played 7 minutes. That is 5 games in 9 playoff runs, 3 of which Pippen played a majority of the game anyway. It is interesting that MJ advocates bring up this stuff but then don't factor those in when talking about his PPG in those series/playoff runs.

Love missed almost all of the 2015 playoffs. I think he played only the first 4-5 games. Irving missed half the ECF and 85% of the finals in 15'. Then in 16', Love was so banged up he was 9/7/1 in the finals (this is called "superstar help") and missed a game altogether. In 12' Bosh missed half the playoffs, including most of their two toughest series. In 07' Hughes was banged up and useless in the ECF, finals and then missed half the finals.

Shall we continue? There is a litany for LeBron, KAJ. Jordan had so few injuries his advocates have to point to a migraine as "Exhibit A" and it is only for Pippen. How many games did Grant, Rodman miss?

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!

TLDR

all this to protect your fantasy lover LeBum. you can't make this stuff up

[Roundball_Rock]

Adults are having a conversation. Go back to the kid's table.

[dankok8]

Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

It was a general comment that "Jordan never lost with a better team" or "Jordan never lost with a team capable of a chip" is self-fulfilling because if his team lost, it is automatically classified as not being chip worthy. You could do that with anyone. I agree with your core point, though: Jordan was more reliable but he also had less upsets on his ledger than LeBron. There is no 07' ECF or 16' finals on his record, for example.

It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. To categorize a "better team" I used team record. Jordan never lost a playoff series with homecourt advantage.


Irving has made 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons (zero first teams, unlike Pippen who had the 4th most first teams in the 90's). If Irving=Pippen, that means MJ's era was much weaker since, if that is true, that means the same player racked up a lot more accolades in that era due to weak comp for those accolades.

MJ advocates frequently diminish Pippen but I never see how that squares with Pippen's standing in his era--the clear implication is the era was weak, if a player of the caliber MJ advocates paint him as was a MVP candidate, perennial all-NBA, making all-NBA over Barkley 5-6x and outpolling Malone 2x. Malone, Barkley are presented as giants but Pippen at times in their primes was ahead of them in all-NBA. Does that mean 16' Irving>94' Barkley or 96' Malone then? That a sidekick in 2016>those finals "#1" comp a year before/after they faced MJ in the 90's? LeBron never faced a player Kyrie Irving could be considered better than in any given season, until Butler this year in his 10th finals.

Westbrook was clearly better than Irving in 16'. Irving was not even all-NBA or an all-star that season. Yeah, he was hurt for 30 or so games but the comp is to Pippen. Pippen made all-NBA playing half a season--Irving couldn't. Which implies half a season of Pippen was better than full seasons of enough stars to land him on all-NBA. Not so with Irving.

In 2012, Westbrook was at least on a similar level and then had Griffin, Parker--all sidekicks who made all-NBA 2nd team (ahead of Wade, but Wade missed half the season and was on third team, along with another sidekick, Rondo). Let's put it another way, from 2011-2014 was Wade the best sidekick? Or would you rather have Westbrook or Griffin? A lot of the Wade stuff focuses on the first two years, not the last two.

Even the AD thing, PG was considered by many to be the bigger sidekick acquisition when it happened, although I agree AD is much better.

Not over their entire careers obviously but I don't think it's weird at all to say that 2016 Irving was as good as Pippen was. Many people would even say Irving was better. I'm not one of them but Kyrie was terrific in the finals that year. Really transcendent actually.

For Wade, I specifically said 2012 and I don't think I need to explain 2020 Davis who probably had the best big man playoff run since threepeat Shaq at least offensively.

I mostly agree with what you wrote. It's pretty reasonable. I am most definitely not a Lebron hater. I used to be more a of a fan of him but these days he's getting a overrated IMO. He doesn't have a GOAT resume (yet) and for me isn't at the point where he would pass MJ or Russell or Kareem.

[Smoke117]

Kareem is better than both all time.

/thread

[Manny98]

Adults are having a conversation. Go back to the kid's table.
:lol

[Roundball_Rock]

It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. To categorize a "better team" I used team record. Jordan never lost a playoff series with homecourt advantage.

The Bulls were 13-4 with Jordan in 95', which would translate to 63 wins and therefore a better record than Orlando (who won 57 games) or anyone else in the West for that matter.


Not over their entire careers obviously but I don't think it's weird at all to say that 2016 Irving was as good as Pippen was.

Which would mean LeBron's era puts Jordan's to shame--which would be a huge blow to Jordan's GOAT case. Irving was not even all-NBA that year and Irving literally has never gotten a MVP vote in his career, let alone first/second place votes like Pippen did many times.

LeBron fans argue MJ played in a weak era. Jordan fans ironically are playing into it with the Pippen stuff, such as saying Irving>Pippen or Irving=Pippen because Irving in this era was not what Pippen was in that era. That is simply a fact (Pippen has more all-NBA first teams alone than Irving has all-NBA teams in total). The only way to square what Irving/Pippen were/are in the Jordan narrative is that this era is much stronger that a Pippen-level player can't crack all-NBA or get a 5th place MVP vote in this era.

Wade for the 2011-2014 period is trickier to gauge because he went from a top 3-4 player to more like top 20 by the end of that run. That was a large decline in a very short period, with most of the decline being in place by 2013.


For Wade, I specifically said 2012

You could still argue Westbrook even for that year. That also happens to be who they faced in the finals.

Even if we accept the most charitable interpretations, LeBron had the best sidekick in 11', 12', and 20'. That is three total seasons. Jordan did in 91', 92', 93', 95', 96', 97', 98'.


He doesn't have a GOAT resume (yet) and for me isn't at the point where he would pass MJ or Russell or Kareem.

I have it as (in order) KAJ, MJ, LeBron, Wilt, Russell.

[dankok8]

The Bulls were 13-4 with Jordan in 95', which would translate to 63 wins and therefore a better record than Orlando (who won 57 games) or anyone else in the West for that matter.

17 games is a tiny sample size. I wouldn't dare to extrapolate 17 games to an entire season.


Which would mean LeBron's era puts Jordan's to shame--which would be a huge blow to Jordan's GOAT case. Irving was not even all-NBA that year and Irving literally has never gotten a MVP vote in his career, let alone first/second place votes like Pippen did many times.

LeBron fans argue MJ played in a weak era. Jordan fans ironically are playing into it with the Pippen stuff, such as saying Irving>Pippen or Irving=Pippen because Irving in this era was not what Pippen was in that era. That is simply a fact (Pippen has more all-NBA first teams alone than Irving has all-NBA teams in total). The only way to square what Irving/Pippen were/are in the Jordan narrative is that this era is much stronger that a Pippen-level player can't crack all-NBA or get a 5th place MVP vote in this era.

Wade for the 2011-2014 period is trickier to gauge because he went from a top 3-4 player to more like top 20 by the end of that run. That was a large decline in a very short period, with most of the decline being in place by 2013.



You could still argue Westbrook even for that year. That also happens to be who they faced in the finals.

Even if we accept the most charitable interpretations, LeBron had the best sidekick in 11', 12', and 20'. That is three total seasons. Jordan did in 91', 92', 93', 95', 96', 97', 98'.



Irving missed half the season in 2015-2016. He was definitely a top 10 player in the league that year.

What that means about strength of eras I don't know.

[Roundball_Rock]

17 games is a tiny sample size. I wouldn't dare to extrapolate 17 games to an entire season.

True, but their close to the season (they also were 8-2 before MJ came back) made them considered legit contenders to win it all. They weren't viewed as big underdogs like, say, the Nuggets against the Lakers or Heat against the Celtics going into the series. After the fact the narrative changed.


Irving missed half the season in 2015-2016.

So did Pippen in 1997-1998 and he still made all-NBA. The implication, half a season of Pippen>full seasons of other stars. Not so with Irving.

Irving has been in the NBA since 2012. He has made two all-NBA teams, neither a first team. He hasn't even gotten a fifth place MVP vote. Not once. His resume isn't consistent with the hype he gets from the Jordan crowd. MJ fans talk about him like he is Harden when he is more like Kemba Walker, who one poster referred to as "Coke Zero" Irving. The team improved with the Coke Zero version.

[dankok8]

True, but their close to the season (they also were 8-2 before MJ came back) made them considered legit contenders to win it all. They weren't viewed as big underdogs like, say, the Nuggets against the Lakers or Heat against the Celtics going into the series. After the fact the narrative changed.



So did Pippen in 1997-1998 and he still made all-NBA. The implication, half a season of Pippen>full seasons of other stars. Not so with Irving.

Irving has been in the NBA since 2012. He has made two all-NBA teams, neither a first team. He hasn't even gotten a fifth place MVP vote. Not once. His resume isn't consistent with the hype he gets from the Jordan crowd. MJ fans talk about him like he is Harden when he is more like Kemba Walker, who one poster referred to as "Coke Zero" Irving. The team improved with the Coke Zero version.

I see what you mean. I agree they lost fair and square in 1995. I wouldn't make any excuses for the Bulls and count it as a legit loss. But I wouldn't say they were favorites.

Regardless of Kyrie's flaws as a player which I agree with by the way, he was amazing in the 2016 Finals. I think we can both agree on that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Regardless of Kyrie's flaws as a player which I agree with by the way, he was amazing in the 2016 Finals. I think we can both agree on that.

True, but that basically is all we hear about regarding Kyrie. For top 50 all-time types you hear about entire seasons, entire playoff runs, etc. Dumars had a finals similar to Irving's. No one even talks about him these days let alone compare him (favorably) to a consensus top 30 all-time player (who can go as high as #21, #22 on lists like ESPN and Slam).

[FKAri]

Since OP isn't 3ball, he makes a lot of sense.

I agree with the conclusion but I dunno if I follow the same reasoning. I don't like doing stat comparisons, especially across eras. Too many adjustments need to made to the point that the subjectivity in the adjustments robs the stats of any objectivity. If that makes any sense. Also, there's so many ways of looking at it. Are we talking resume? Ability? Talent? Performance relative to competition? Who I'd take if starting a team today? Though I'd argue MJ wins in each one of those angles(though some of them are razor thin margins). As for your 7 reasons, I find arguments can be made for Lebron in all 7 points except #2.

The one area where MJ is significantly ahead is scoring imo. Particularly half court scoring(the toughest aspect of scoring). I know some like to provide statistical arguments for Lebron but none of them hold water when examined closely. I've gone over this stuff a million times on ISH so don't feel like repeating myself unless someone really wants to argue it.

[MadDog]

I read your article earlier. Some reasonable points made that favor Jordan, but also give LeBron credit. I think defense is a lost section of the debate. LeBron fans cling to his defense in Miami, which was great, but Chicago Jordan was a GREAT defensive player every year basically. Another reason he has more All-Defensive teams in less seasons played. How does LeBron's marginal lead in assists and rebounds (Jordan averaged more offensive rebounds :oldlol:) makeup for the gap Jordan has in defense and scoring? I don't think it does. What about you? :confusedshrug:

[Shooter]

imagine only making 6 finals

like wtf were you doing the rest of your career? waiting for pippen to bail you out?


https://i.postimg.cc/v83kqbKX/bango-bango.gif

:lol :lol Gottem

[dankok8]

People are quick to point out that Pippen played better than probably all 2nd options on the teams that the Bulls faced and it's true but fail to acknowledge that 2020 Davis played better than all the 1st options the Lakers faced. And that 2012 Wade and 2016 Kyrie were at least as good as 2nd options as Pippen was. If we're going to have an objective discussion let's at least call a spade a spade.

That isn't a slight at anyone in particular but the gross lack of objectivity in some posts on here is quite something.

[Roundball_Rock]

People are quick to point out that Pippen played better than probably all 2nd options on the teams that the Bulls faced and it's true but fail to acknowledge that 2020 Davis played better than all the 1st options the Lakers faced. And that 2012 Wade and 2016 Kyrie were at least as good as 2nd options as Pippen was. If we're going to have an objective discussion let's at least call a spade a spade.

That isn't a slight at anyone in particular but the gross lack of objectivity in some posts on here is quite something.

Because there is a lot of subjectively and cherry picking involved in that. You are selecting 3 out of 10 finals runs. What happened in the other 7 years (Wade was outplayed by a slew of Spurs in the 14' finals, outplayed badly by Hibbert in the 13' ECF, etc. Why are we freezing Wade in time and ignoring the entire 4 year run?). With Pippen the discussion is he entire 1991-1998 run.

Irving was never the best sidekick in the league (Westbrook, Griffin, Curry were all better during that same time frame and Klay, Aldridge were comparable). Irving made 1 all-NBA team his entire time in Cleveland. That speaks for itself.

Wade in 12' arguably wasn't either--Westbrook had a strong case. Westbrook/Harden outscored Wade/Bosh in the finals, contrary to popular belief. Facing Westbrook/Harden isn't the same as facing Porter/Kersey or Johnson/Majerle.

Simply list the best sidekicks/3rd options of each era. The 3rd options of this era>the sidekicks of MJ's comp. MJ fans don't acknowledge that and instead pretend Grant was up against Bosh-level #3s.

[dankok8]

Because there is a lot of subjectively and cherry picking involved in your post. You are selecting 3 out of 10 finals runs. What happened in the other 7 years? With Pippen the discussion is he entire 1991-1998 run.

Irving was never the best sidekick in the league (Westbrook, Griffin, Curry were all better during that same time frame and Klay, Aldridge were comparable). Irving made 1 all-NBA team his entire time in Cleveland. That speaks for itself.

Wade in 12' arguably wasn't either--Westbrook had a strong case. Westbrook/Harden outscored Wade/Bosh in the finals, contrary to popular belief. Facing Westbrook/Harden isn't the same as facing Porter/Kersey or Johnson/Majerle.

Not everything is about scoring and you know that. Wade was just a better player than Westbrook in 2012 because of his basketball IQ alone.

Not sure why you bring up Terry Porter who was a very good player on both ends of the court. The Blazers team had a lot of depth. KJ was fantastic and led the Suns to several WCF's before Barkley even came on. Put up 20 ppg/10 apg for several seasons as a 1st option. I think you're underrating a lot of these 90's players because most current fans haven't heard of them.

I was talking about the Finals runs that led to titles.

[Roundball_Rock]

My point is there was another sidekick comparable to 12' Wade--and he happened to be on the team they faced in the finals. 12' Wade isn't a big advantage over 12' Westbrook; 92' Pippen over 92' Porter is.

Irving was good in 16' but like I noted, he wasn't even the best or second best sidekick of his era. Westbrook was top 5 in MVP twice as a sidekick, Griffin a MVP candidate in 14' (granted a year before LeBron went to Cleveland but he was the same caliber player after 14' for a few more years). Irving never reached those type of peaks. Then you had Klay, Aldridge who were comparable to Irving during that 2015-2017 period. Irving missed about 40% of the 16' season--his team did exactly the same without him as they did with him. That hints at what we saw in Boston and Brooklyn: his impact relative to what it should be in theory is questionable, for whatever reason. When 98' Pippen, probably the weakest chip Pippen other than 91', missed half a season the Bulls went from a 67 win pace to a 56 win pace.

The elephant in the room with Irving is he is not a full-time player. When has he ever played a full season (never if you count the playoffs)? Wade also broke down at the end of the LeBron Miami run. Pippen played 77+ games each title run, except for 98'.

[HoopsNY]

The Bulls were 13-4 with Jordan in 95', which would translate to 63 wins and therefore a better record than Orlando (who won 57 games) or anyone else in the West for that matter.

The problem is the plug and play feature. We saw what happened with Kawhi and a lack of chemistry. I think it's fair to say a full-season with Chicago does a lot more for chemistry and basketball IQ, as opposed to 17 games after missing nearly two years.


Which would mean LeBron's era puts Jordan's to shame--which would be a huge blow to Jordan's GOAT case. Irving was not even all-NBA that year and Irving literally has never gotten a MVP vote in his career, let alone first/second place votes like Pippen did many times.


Kyrie was All-NBA 3rd team in 2015 and All-NBA 2nd team in 2019. He missed 30 games in 2015-16, so while it is an assumption, it's not entirely outlandish to think he would win All-NBA honors that year, too.


LeBron fans argue MJ played in a weak era. Jordan fans ironically are playing into it with the Pippen stuff, such as saying Irving>Pippen or Irving=Pippen because Irving in this era was not what Pippen was in that era. That is simply a fact (Pippen has more all-NBA first teams alone than Irving has all-NBA teams in total). The only way to square what Irving/Pippen were/are in the Jordan narrative is that this era is much stronger that a Pippen-level player can't crack all-NBA or get a 5th place MVP vote in this era.

This is why I think it's important to look at finals individually, rather than players. I don't think the issue is with saying Kyrie > Pippen, I think what's more important is to look at the actual production and see how they stack up.

This is why I say half of MJ's finals victories are just as impressive, if not more impressive, than literally all of LeBron's, simply because the sidekick production wasn't phenomenal. That has to count for something. Even if someone were to equate them (which would be ridiculous), it certainly doesn't diminish from MJ's finals performances.


Wade for the 2011-2014 period is trickier to gauge because he went from a top 3-4 player to more like top 20 by the end of that run. That was a large decline in a very short period, with most of the decline being in place by 2013.

What matters more is what Wade was able to do in 2011 and 2012. You have to give credit to LeBron for 2013, which still doesn't make up for everything else, I think.


Even if we accept the most charitable interpretations, LeBron had the best sidekick in 11', 12', and 20'. That is three total seasons. Jordan did in 91', 92', 93', 95', 96', 97', 98'.


Would have to take a deeper look, but again, how did Pippen perform in the finals as a whole? If HALF of the performances weren't as good as LeBron's 4 WINS, then why is there even a debate to begin with? I posted it up before in another post:

Lebron's 4 Wins
2012: 23/6/5 on 52% TS%, 16.4 GmSc
2013: 20/4/5 on 51% TS%, 14.9 GmSc
2016: 27/4/4 on 56% TS%, 19.1 GmSc
2020: 25/11/3 on 67% TS%, 22.8 GmSc

Now look at Pippen's production in the NBA finals in 1993, 1996, and 1998

1993: 21/9/8 on 46% TS%, 15.6 GmSc
1996: 16/8/5 on 43% TS%, 13.4 GmSc
1998: 16/7/5 on 50% TS%, 13.0 GmSc

[Roundball_Rock]

Case in point, Dan. Notice he doesn't list the sidekick "production" for the opposition? He doesn't want to talk about Stockton putting up 9.7 PPG or Kevin Johnson playing so poorly he got benched at one point (the Phoenix crowed cheered :oldlol: ) or Terry Porter choking on the finals stage (after being great for 3 rounds) or Worthy getting outplayed/hurt or Pippen outplaying Malone at times in 97' (Stockton never outplayed MJ). He wants to cherry pick Pippen's 3 weakest (by GMSC--which doesn't capture him being FMVP front-runner through 4 games mainly via defense, but he was also scoring 20 PPG, in 98') and compare them to people two eras later.

Another "benefit" of comparing across eras: stats were lower across the board in the 90's. Another reason you won't see Westbrook vs. Porter numbers or Curry vs. Stockton numbers etc.

It also is interesting injuries exist only when convenient in the MJ narrative. MJ fans are quick to point out Pippen got injured late in the 98' finals when hailing MJ's Game 6 performance (you pointed out Pippen's injury, Dan, yourself). When it comes to stats? Got to include that game to bring his averages down. Same with the "migraine game" MJ fans complain about: it nullifies the loss but got to count those stats (the narrative also implies Pippen was so good a 18-20 point defeat would be a W if he were 100%)! Hoops isn't a MJ stan per se but he echoes the narrative in many cases, like here.

All these gymnastics aren't necessary for the LeBron narrative: all you have to do for that is post the raw data (adjusted for numerous injuries, not just a game here or there, on the LeBron side--you have to factor in who the actual #2/#3 options were in given games/series) and let it speak for itself.


Kyrie was All-NBA 3rd team in 2015 and All-NBA 2nd team in 2019.

That is twice in nine years. That makes him better than a consensus top 30 all-time player? Lots of good players make 2+ all-NBA teams, especially on finals teams (except Terry Porter, Rik Smits, John Starks types). Klay, Green for example also have "2"--who were on the opposing team in 3 of those finals. They were the 2nd/3rd and 3rd/4th options, not 2nd...

The argument is the Warriors' 4th option has equal all-NBA credentials to the Cavs' 2nd (if he showed up for the series)? That explains a lot, doesn't it?

[Goldrush25]

Man this is going to be a miserable next 5-6 years for some of you.

If he wins one more ring and gets to 5 it's over, he won't retire until he reaches 7.

[dankok8]

My point is there was another sidekick comparable to 12' Wade--and he happened to be on the team they faced in the finals. 12' Wade isn't a big advantage over 12' Westbrook; 92' Pippen over 92' Porter is.

Irving was good in 16' but like I noted, he wasn't even the best or second best sidekick of his era. Westbrook was top 5 in MVP twice as a sidekick, Griffin a MVP candidate in 14' (granted a year before LeBron went to Cleveland but he was the same caliber player after 14' for a few more years). Irving never reached those type of peaks. Then you had Klay, Aldridge who were comparable to Irving during that 2015-2017 period. Irving missed about 40% of the 16' season--his team did exactly the same without him as they did with him. That hints at what we saw in Boston and Brooklyn: his impact relative to what it should be in theory is questionable, for whatever reason. When 98' Pippen, probably the weakest chip Pippen other than 91', missed half a season the Bulls went from a 67 win pace to a 56 win pace.

The elephant in the room with Irving is he is not a full-time player. When has he ever played a full season (never if you count the playoffs)? Wade also broke down at the end of the LeBron Miami run. Pippen played 77+ games each title run, except for 98'.

We are kind of beating a dead horse here.

I agree that Westbrook is comparable (only slightly worse) to Wade. Wade was an elite 2nd option in 2012 though. There is no arguing around it.

Again with Irving I'm not talking about his consistency. I'm talking about what we saw from him in the 2016 playoffs specifically in the Finals. In that one series which people vividly remember Kyrie was all-world. Kind of like how people discrediting Kareem bring up lack of accolades by Gus Williams. Well it doesn't matter. In the 1979 playoffs, dude was money! Played like the best guard in the league even if he has much lower status than ever Kyrie. Talking about Irving's lack of career accolades doesn't diminish his performance in the 2016 Finals which was TRANSCENDENT!

[dankok8]

In 2012, ESPN ranked Wade 7th best player, Westbrook 8th best player. BR ranked Wade 7th best player, Westbrook 9th best player. No other second option ranked above Wade.

[Roundball_Rock]

What is revealing is MJ fans avoid comparing MJ's sidekick/3rd options to the comp and doing that with LeBron's like the plague. It is because we all know what that information would show, especially for the #2's (#3's are a bit tougher because Rodman was the third best player but Kukoc the third scorer).

What we get is cherry picking and shady accounting that includes injured games to obscure obvious stuff like Pippen dominating the 98' finals (which not a single MJ fan has ever acknowledged in my time on ISH).

With LeBron you can do straight up comparisons because the data shows on net, LeBron had less help than the comp did.


In 2012, ESPN ranked Wade 7th best player, Westbrook 8th best player. BR ranked Wade 7th best player, Westbrook 9th best player. No other second option ranked above Wade.

That is fair but the fact that we have to keep honing in on specific years for LeBron's tells the tale, doesn't it? How did ESPN rank them in 13' and 14'? Where was Irving ranked?

Speaking of ESPN, they did a top 74 all-time ranking this spring. Pippen was 21st, Wade 26th. Stockton was the only 90's sidekick close to Pippen at 28th (more due to longevity than peak level). Pippen was ahead of basically every #1 option of his era on the list... Westbrook was 42nd, Davis 45th (obviously higher now), Worthy 51st.

Some 3rd options LeBron faced like Allen, Manu sandwiched Drexler. Rodman was 62nd, ahead of Zo' and behind Parish.

I have no idea how legit this BR guy is, but here were his rankings on 12/31/16. So right in the middle of the two finals Irving had.

Top 25 Players of Note

Westbrook: 1st
Curry: 5th
Davis: 7th
Lowry: 10th
Green: 14th
Irving: 15th
Walker: 16th
Love: 19th

These are almost all sidekicks. The exceptions are there for obvious reasons. Westbrook was a sidekick the entire decade until this season. Anthony "Kareem" Davis was a future sidekick. Green was a 4th option--yet still ahead of Irving. :oldlol: Walker was Irving's future replacement--right behind him. Love was the Cavs' 3rd option, trailed the Warriors' 4th.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2684404-2016-17-nba-superstar-rankings-top-25-players-heading-into-the-new-year

We also have all-NBA voting on NBA.com starting in 16'.

2016: Curry 645, Westbrook 627, Paul 353, Lillard 217, Klay 164, Lowry 155, Harden 106, DeRozan 26, IT 20, Butler 12, Wall 7, Walker 6, Parker 1.

I had to "CTRL F" because I thought I missed Irving but I didn't. Kyrie "Scottie" Pippen got 0 votes. Less than Andrew Bogut did. :oldlol:

Look at Westbrook. He is door-to-door with the league MVP. That is how strong a sidekick he was. Irving wasn't in his zip code.

2017: Harden 500, Westbrook 498, Curry 290, IT 236, Wall 125, DeRozan 62, Paul 49, Irving/Klay 14, Lillard 12.

More of the same. Kyrie a non-factor yet again. Westbrook is door-to-door with Harden and ahead of Curry. He was not a sidekick, but neither was Kyrie before and after LeBron. Kyrie is not capable of such heights over a sustained period.


Talking about Irving's lack of career accolades doesn't diminish his performance in the 2016 Finals which was TRANSCENDENT!

Sure, but Joe Dumars did that in a finals too and others, like you noted. No one is comparing Dumars (favorably) to a consensus top 30 all-time player.

Irving had two great series against the same team. Couldn't it be possible that it was a great match up for him? What did he do in the other games and series he has been in?

[dankok8]

You realize that All-NBA teams, All-Star appearances , MVP shares etc. are all regular season awards?

In 2015-16 Kyrie averaged 19.6/3.0/4.7 in the regular season on 54.0 %TS and missed a bunch of games. He was a borderline top 20 player. But then what happened in the playoffs? 25.2/3.0/4.7 on 57.4 %TS and even stepped up on D. In those playoffs he was a top 5 performer. 7th in PER, 2nd in WS, 9th in BPM, 4th in VORP. I mean who was clearly better than him in those playoffs? Lebron, Durant.. maybe Westbrook or Kawhi. It's a very short list.

Why wouldn't I compare Dumars favorably to someone who's higher all-time if he played well in a particular playoff run. Lebron has nothing from Kyrie's career All-NBA selection, All-Star appearances and even MVP's. But he has a lot of good from his explosion in the 2016 Finals. I'm not gonna pretend that Kyrie was a non All-NBA performer in the 2016 playoffs when my eyes tell me he was a top 5 player in that postseason and the stats support it. He completely outplayed the reigning consecutive two time MVP. He left Curry for dead... And it's not just the finals either. He dominated against the Pistons and Raptors as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

The game is to paint Jordan's teammates in the worst possible lights and LeBron's in the best possible light. With Kyrie that is via acting like a few hot games is who he was for his career.

VORP is cumulative so if you make the finals you have the most games played and you will accrue a lot of VORP. Let's use BPM, which isn't affected by games played. BPM ranks also are useful because they compare within eras, not fantasy comparisons between 1993 and 2020.

Irving was 9th in BPM in 2016. That is his only top 10 run. Here are his PO BPM's: 5.2, 6.0, 2.2 (17'), 2.5. We can compare this to Westbrook, Griffin, Aldridge, Klay from his era and see where he would stack up but we already know the answer.

Pippen was top 10 in PO BPM from 1990-1992 and 1994-1997. He was 10th, 8th, 4th, 7th, 8th, 3rd, and 10th during those years. 98' his BPM actually was higher than 97' but he missed the top 10.

I don't know what to say. There is a clear difference between the two. One was a consistent, perennial elite performer who reliably showed up for work. The other was a guy who got hot in one run and hasn't been there for his team when they needed him most in 3 of the past 6 playoffs (and played poorly on 1 of the occasions he showed up).

Since I am on the page, Wade was 2nd in 11' and 10th in 12'. He fell off a cliff thereafter. He had a 5.3 in 12' but was 3.1 in 13' and 0.9 in 14'. 0.9 is "decent starter or 6th man" quality.

Let's accept the 16' Irving argument. What is the point? They won with him at his peak level. It would be relevant if he beasted and they lost.

[Ainosterhaspie]

As to points one and two. Separating out scoring, but not other statistical categories is odd. Either lump it in with everything else in #1 or separate them all out. As you structure this you're double dipping, using scoring two times (since its a big component of the edge in #1) which makes it look like you're reaching to comenup with adequate material.

As to number three, I think it's framed in an odd way almost as if you acknowledge LeBron is the better defender, but since that doesn't help the argument, you change the discussion to consistency instead of quality to get the desired result.

Points four and six are redundant. Losing as a favorite is a black mark. Again, looks like you don't have enough material. The odd thing is if you incorporated 1/2 and 4/6, you'd have five points which is kind of a more common way to list thing than using seven.

Point five isn't well supported and needs ro account for many situations not mentioned. LeBron unquestionably did more with weak supporting casts. He led them to winning seasons sooner. He took a weak cast to 66 wins in 2009. He's never lost in the first round. His 2016 finals was a higher degree of difficulty win than any Jordan achieved. His 2018 playoffs carry job stands above any Jordan managed. And clawing two wins from the Warriors without his second and third best teammates is something Jordan never managed.

If you break it down, point five is really just making the same point as point seven, he won more finals. Point seven doesn't make the argument Jordan won, more, but that Jordan won more titles. It ignores all other wins. It is the basic ring counting argument, nothing more.

[Ainosterhaspie]

As to who is better. LeBron has a distinct significant edge in longevity. Jordan had 11 seasons where he was at the very top of the league, LeBron has 15. LeBron has 5 more all-NBA awards. LeBron isn't just piling up useless, empty stats, he's competing for the title best player in the game still in season 17. Jordan only played 15 seasons.

LeBron is the better defender. Jordan is a better man defender on the perimeter, but looking at the whole defensive package, this goes comfortably to LeBron. LeBron was the unquestioned defensive anchor for his first three title teams as his team's best perimeter and rim defender. He is exceptional at directing team defensive assignments and switches, making the defenses better not just with his individual play, but by improving the efficacy of his teammates. The extra all-NBA defender awards and DPOY award are more a reflection of voters with little understanding of defensive value, than a reflection of their relative qualities as defenders.

LeBron is a better three point shooter and finisher at the rim. These are two of the three most efficient ways to score. Jordan has a comfortable edge in free throw shooting. Jordan certainly scored in greater volume. His greatest asset in scoring compared to LeBron is that he had a more consistent jumper. Their scoring is close, but in any given game, you're more likely to get better scoring production from MJ than LeBron.

LeBron on the other hand is a much better and more willing facilitator. Its interesting the for Jordan to win, he had to learn to let his teammates be part of the offense. For LeBron to win, he had to learn to not order do it letting his teammtes be part of the offense. Different mindsets. Both if taken too far yield poor results. Scoring leader for example don't win titles, except Jordan, and even he had to modulate his scoring before winning. But just as people shouldn't take LeBron's anomalous scoring games where his jumper is on to conclude LeBron matches Jordan's scoring, people need to take care doing the same in reverse when it comes to facilitating and passing. LeBron isn't just more willing to do it, and given more opportunity, he's comfortably better at it. He has a combination of vision, touch and accuracy on passes that Jordan doesn't match.

Overall, looking at the whole picture. Jordan never had an anomalous series like the 2011 finals, but he also never had a series like the 2016 finals. He was more consistent at winning titles when at the top of his game, but he faded much sooner than LeBron and small fluctuations in luck would wipe out the difference in the number of titles. LeBron is the more physically gifted and complete player despite Jordan's edge as a scorer. The difference between the two at their best is minimal, but LeBron has managed to stay at his best far longer than Jordan.

[MadDog]

Jordan never had a second option who outplayed his "toughest" opponent either. The myths are out of control :oldlol:

[dankok8]

@Ainosterhaspie

I tried to respond to most of what you wrote...

It's not odd to separate statistical dominance across all stats from scoring where I talk primarily about their skillsets that aren't captured by stats. No double dipping there.

I never acknowledged Lebron is a better defender. They are different on that end of the floor but Jordan had more world class seasons on defense than Lebron did.

Someone else also said I could have joined losing as a favorite with black marks but it's different. Losing as a favorite is a team underachievement whereas black marks were more about individual shortcomings where Lebron just played poorly, was outplayed etc. Perhaps I could have reworded that.

I don't think saying that Jordan never did something as difficult as Lebron is fair. He took 2 wins from the Bad Boy Pistons in 1989 with a similarly unenviable cast. The 2016 Finals are overblown. Warriors were well below their best... fatigued, out of form, injured... Kyrie balled out of his mind. Tristan balled out of his mind. A lot of stars aligned apart from Lebron playing well for the Cavs to win.

The longevity argument is overblown. Lebron put up similar stats from his second year to present which obscures his longevity. Truth is from 03-04 to 10-11 Lebron simply wasn't as good as any Chicago Bulls version of Jordan except maybe in 08-09 but you can't separate one season... Prime must be consecutive. Lebron's prime where he is comparable to Jordan does begins in 11-12 till present which is 9 seasons and 18-19 is a write off due to injury so really it's 8 seasons. And Lebron's defense also falls off quite steeply after 13-14 so that hurts him in prime comparisons as well.

They are different defensively although MJ's huge edge in man-to-man defense makes it hard to give Lebron any kind of edge. I'm willing to call it even on that end but Jordan had more quality years. That's really what is comes down to.

In terms of passing, read what I wrote in the article and watch some Jordan games. You'd be surprised how good he is as a passer. Lebron is better but not by a lot.

[HoopsNY]

Case in point, Dan. Notice he doesn't list the sidekick "production" for the opposition? He doesn't want to talk about Stockton putting up 9.7 PPG or Kevin Johnson playing so poorly he got benched at one point (the Phoenix crowed cheered :oldlol: ) or Terry Porter choking on the finals stage (after being great for 3 rounds) or Worthy getting outplayed/hurt or Pippen outplaying Malone at times in 97' (Stockton never outplayed MJ). He wants to cherry pick Pippen's 3 weakest (by GMSC--which doesn't capture him being FMVP front-runner through 4 games mainly via defense, but he was also scoring 20 PPG, in 98') and compare them to people two eras later

Another misleading take from the champion of champions! Here is the problem, you limit "competition" to 2nd option sidekicks like KJ and Stockton, but what happens when the opposition has another player that actually stepped up in their absence?

You talk an awful lot about the opposition, then never actually paint the full picture. ISH members then think you're somehow automatically right on this point, without considering a greater context.

Let's take a look at the "opposition" and players that stepped up in the place of the sidekick, or the sidekick themselves.

1998 Finals

Pippen: 54% TS%/ 101 ORTG/ 101 DRTG/ 15.1 GmSc
Stockton: 61% TS%/ 111 ORTG/ 103 DRTG/ 14.9 GmSc

1996 Finals

Pippen: 43% TS%/ 106 ORTG/ 103 DRTG/ 13.4 GmSc
Payton: 53% TS%/ 114 ORTG/ 111 DRTG/ 14.4 GmSc

1993 Finals

Pippen: 46% TS%/ 97 ORTG/ 110 DRTG/ 15.6 GmSc
Majerle: 59% TS%/ 128 ORTG/ 112 DRTG/ 17.0 GmSc

1991 Finals

Pippen: 53% TS%/ 107 ORTG/ 102 ORTG/ 17.5 GmSc
Divac: 61% TS%/ 112 ORTG/ 111 DRTG/ 16.1 GmSc

Make of this what you will, but the "competition" generally had players who were at least on par with Pippen, and in some cases better. I'm not even the one who is trying to drag Pippen through the mud. That's for the others on this forum. But when 4 finals victories had what is at least equal or better production, you fail to mention that.

You think you can limit "competition" to who the bonafide second option was. Unfortunately, "competition" includes everyone on the team, not just one person that is restricted to your parameters.


It also is interesting injuries exist only when convenient in the MJ narrative. MJ fans are quick to point out Pippen got injured late in the 98' finals when hailing MJ's Game 6 performance (you pointed out Pippen's injury, Dan, yourself). When it comes to stats? Got to include that game to bring his averages down. Same with the "migraine game" MJ fans complain about: it nullifies the loss but got to count those stats (the narrative also implies Pippen was so good a 18-20 point defeat would be a W if he were 100%)! Hoops isn't a MJ stan per se but he echoes the narrative in many cases, like here.

And what happened to the '89 playoffs as whole? You seem to think that pointing this out is done to malign Pippen. It's not. It's simply to counter a narrative that behaves as if Jordan had elite help at all times, thus being incapable of success when he didn't. It's just not true.

And I posted round by round, including the ECF, with games 1-5. Of course, you gave no response and jumped to another red herring. Because apparently, Pippen playing horridly the first 5 games is to be ignored and counted as elite support. Unbelievable.


All these gymnastics aren't necessary for the LeBron narrative: all you have to do for that is post the raw data (adjusted for numerous injuries, not just a game here or there, on the LeBron side--you have to factor in who the actual #2/#3 options were in given games/series) and let it speak for itself.

Sure. But a lie is a lie. The fact is, MJ carried the team at times when the team wasn't producing. Plain and simple. Why is that hard to admit?


That is twice in nine years. That makes him better than a consensus top 30 all-time player? Lots of good players make 2+ all-NBA teams, especially on finals teams (except Terry Porter, Rik Smits, John Starks types). Klay, Green for example also have "2"--who were on the opposing team in 3 of those finals. They were the 2nd/3rd and 3rd/4th options, not 2nd...


I'm not comparing careers here. When we look at the NBA finals, we should look at them individually. You mentioned Kyrie wasn't even All-NBA in 2016. Dan (or someone else) responded with the fact that he missed 30 games. Instead of you humbling yourself and saying, "yea, you're right about that." You go off on a tangent to further discredit Kyrie's contribution to the 2016 ring.

And keep in mind, who said Kyrie > Pippen on the All-Time list to begin with?

[HoopsNY]

We are kind of beating a dead horse here.

I agree that Westbrook is comparable (only slightly worse) to Wade. Wade was an elite 2nd option in 2012 though. There is no arguing around it.

Again with Irving I'm not talking about his consistency. I'm talking about what we saw from him in the 2016 playoffs specifically in the Finals. In that one series which people vividly remember Kyrie was all-world. Kind of like how people discrediting Kareem bring up lack of accolades by Gus Williams. Well it doesn't matter. In the 1979 playoffs, dude was money! Played like the best guard in the league even if he has much lower status than ever Kyrie. Talking about Irving's lack of career accolades doesn't diminish his performance in the 2016 Finals which was TRANSCENDENT!

Bro we have tried to tell Roundball time and time again that you can't use career rankings or cumulative statistics over a decade to prove or disprove the contribution or a lack thereof for an individual player in a specific NBA finals. He just doesn't listen.

He went on a rant by creating another post showing MJ's competition career PPG, as if that's relevant somehow when career PPG doesn't show what those players were doing at the time they faced Chicago.

I didn't read the rest of the post, but knowing Roundball, he never admits when he's wrong. I mentioned in my previous post that Kyrie's 2016 playoffs/finals should be isolated, just as every other NBA finals should. They're too small a sample size for it to be included with a 10-20 year span.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is the problem, you limit "competition" to 2nd option sidekicks like KJ and Stockton, but what happens when the opposition has another player that actually stepped up in their absence?

They weren't "absent" because they played poorly. :lol That happens a lot. Another smokescreen to distract from what the MJ crowd avoids like a plague: the performance of opposing players. That happens in a lot of series but that doesn't happen in a vacuum. They don't shake hands and exchange roles, other than if their are injuries. Teams still suffer from KJ choking.


then never actually paint the full picture. ISH members then think you're somehow automatically right on this point, without considering a greater context.

Let's take a look at the "opposition" and players that stepped up in the place of the sidekick, or the sidekick themselves.

1998 Finals

Pippen: 54% TS%/ 101 ORTG/ 101 DRTG/ 15.1 GmSc
Stockton: 61% TS%/ 111 ORTG/ 103 DRTG/ 14.9 GmSc


This is dishonest and he talks about the "full picture." Jordan fans will go on and on about Kyrie Irving--who was never a threat to win the FMVP. Pippen was through 4 games (3 of the Bulls games). Not a single MJ fan will acknowledge 1) this happened 2) why this was the case 3) Pippen got hurt late in the series (except when convenient to point out MJ 's teams had "injuries" too, as if it compares to what KAJ and LeBron had).

All anyone who wants to learn about what they are deceiving about has to do is Google "Pippen 1998 finals MVP" and you will see a lot of real-time reporting from then.

To add to the dishonesty, he talks about "filling in" and then pretends Kukoc was not the 2nd option at the end of the series. He knows this because we have went over this many times. He still deceives--because he can't admit what the actual full picture would show.

Stockton didn't even put up double digit scoring in that series. He had a 2 point game. He watched the Utah #1 offense get wrecked and failed to counter it. But his TS % was good on 8 wide open shots per game.


1996 Finals

Pippen: 43% TS%/ 106 ORTG/ 103 DRTG/ 13.4 GmSc
Payton: 53% TS%/ 114 ORTG/ 111 DRTG/ 14.4 GmSc


:wtf: is this? Your own numbers show Pippen in his worst finals basically on par with the other team's #1 option. :lol


Divac:

This guy thinks Divac=Pippen in impact in the 91' finals. This is how low they have to go. :lol


And what happened to the '89 playoffs as whole?

14-15 PPG--a PPG number that is awfully similar to the 98' finals numbers you post all the time. No help in 98'. No help in 89'. No help ever. :(


You mentioned Kyrie wasn't even All-NBA in 2016. Dan (or someone else) responded with the fact that he missed 30 games. Instead of you humbling yourself and saying, "yea, you're right about that." You go off on a tangent to further discredit Kyrie's contribution to the 2016 ring.

Yet more deception. Try to keep up with the discussion. The comparison was Pippen to Irving. 98' Pippen missed 38 games and still made all-NBA. Irving didn't (and literally got 0 votes). There is an obvious implication here--if you assume both eras were equal...This is peak Kyrie, the only thing about his career people ever talk about vs. end of prime Pippen too. Yet these are painted as equal players.

The burden is on MJ fans hyping Irving to show why peak Irving was perceived that way in real time. The proferred excuse, that he was injured, is laughable. (Real) Superstars make all-NBA all the time even when they miss that many games.


He went on a rant by creating another post showing MJ's competition career PPG, as if that's relevant somehow when career PPG doesn't show what those players were doing at the time they faced Chicago.

Yet more deception. Don't you ever get tired of lying? That post was to mock MJ stans for doing the same thing--which you are fine with I am sure.

[Roundball_Rock]

A consistent takeaway from this, and other threads, is MJ fans don't want to compare sidekicks--except if you are comparing fictional match ups between 1993 and 2020 (without ever adjusting for pace, higher scoring, rules changes, etc.). This is a "tell": they know MJ's comp had weak sidekicks. Rarely even HOF players. LeBron's comp probably had more HOF 3rd options than MJ's did 2nd options. That is an inconvenient fact since in their narratives MJ and LeBron played golf with 11 other players. There was no opposing team, no opposing lineup to compare against.



I don't think saying that Jordan never did something as difficult as Lebron is fair. He took 2 wins from the Bad Boy Pistons in 1989 with a similarly unenviable cast. The 2016 Finals are overblown.

That argument can be made but won't persuade many outside of the existing MJ base. For one, you are comparing the roster that won a chip two years later--and per the MJ narrative--would have won the next year in 90' but for the migraine (Pippen apparently here was good enough to turn around an 18-20 point defeat in that game for agenda purposes--and he isn't even in his prime yet--but he was not so good from 1991-1998). The same roster.

When did the Cavs win a chip with JR Smith and Mozgov as their 2nd/3rd options?

With MJ it always is "no help." Pippen was 1st team all-NBA and top 5 in MVP in 96' (even AD was not top 5 this year--he was 6th). "No help" we keep hearing. They won 72 games with MJ by himself, evidently.


Warriors were well below their best

This is an emerging talking point that probably will blowback on the MJ crowd. When did the Bulls' opponents ever play up to par in the finals? 96' is the only example.


The longevity argument is overblown. Lebron put up similar stats from his second year to present which obscures his longevity.

Obscures or amplifies?


Jordan except maybe in 08-09 but you can't separate one season

Except if it is Kyrie Irving where it isn't even just separating one season--it basically is separating out 4-5 games? :lol

Your argument isn't a longevity discussion. You are simply erasing LeBron's career to get MJ ahead of him in longevity. You can legitimately argue MJ's prime>LeBron's but that doesn't negate LeBron was a MVP candidate in 2006 and again in 2020. That is a 14 year span. No one in NBA history has ever done that.


Overall, looking at the whole picture. Jordan never had an anomalous series like the 2011 finals, but he also never had a series like the 2016 finals.

LeBron also makes his teammates better so you can't just look at what they did individually. That is why Jordan couldn't make a finals with Drew Gooden and Daniel Gibson.

[dankok8]

Kyrie averaged 25/3/5 on 57 %TS in the 2016 playoffs and by the way repeated those numbers in 2017 and he stepped up his defense in the playoffs as well. In every single series in those two postseasons except the 2017 Finals (where KD clearly outplayed him as well as Lebron), Kyrie was probably the 2nd best player on the floor. Nobody on those Raptors, Celtics, Hawks was as good as Kyrie.

Before you rip on Jordan for his 2nd option outplaying other team's 2nd options, consider that Wade in 2011 and 2012, Kyrie in 2016 and 2017, and Davis in 2020 were generally with few exceptions outplaying the 1st options on other teams. Wade in 2011 and Davis in 2020 actually have cases for being better than Lebron. Not being a hater. That's just reality.

[nineiron]

Kyrie averaged 25/3/5 on 57 %TS in the 2016 playoffs and by the way repeated those numbers in 2017 and he stepped up his defense in the playoffs as well. In every single series in those two postseasons except the 2017 Finals (where KD clearly outplayed him as well as Lebron), Kyrie was probably the 2nd best player on the floor. Nobody on those Raptors, Celtics, Hawks was as good as Kyrie.

Before you rip on Jordan for his 2nd option outplaying other team's 2nd options, consider that Wade in 2011 and 2012, Kyrie in 2016 and 2017, and Davis in 2020 were generally with few exceptions outplaying the 1st options on other teams. Wade in 2011 and Davis in 2020 actually have cases for being better than Lebron. Not being a hater. That's just reality.

bronsexuals will call you a hater regardless

[Roundball_Rock]

Kyrie averaged 25/3/5 on 57 %TS in the 2016 playoffs and by the way repeated those numbers in 2017 and he stepped up his defense in the playoffs as well. In every single series in those two postseasons except the 2017 Finals (where KD clearly outplayed him as well as Lebron), Kyrie was probably the 2nd best player on the floor. Nobody on those Raptors, Celtics, Hawks was as good as Kyrie.

Nobody on those Celtics, Hawks is a HOF player and the Raptor's HOF player Lowry is clearly a tier below Irving. What did you expect? If Pippen outplayed Paul Millsap it would elicit a yawn. Irving is getting praised for it.

Forget Pippen for a moment, though. Rodman didn't outplay Payton in a NBA finals? Some people, including George Karl, thought he was the best player in the series. We have seen the 96' finals mentioned a few times in this thread. Zero about Rodman. Kukoc didn't outplay Miller in a ECF (including in Game 7)? BJ Armstrong didn't outplay Mark Price in a series? It works in other directions too: MJ had teammates not named Scottie who could overperform in series too. This shouldn't be surprising. We are talking small sample sizes and these are talented players. It isn't as if Randy Brown was outplaying Miller or something.


Before you rip on Jordan for his 2nd option outplaying other team's 2nd options

"Worst possible light." Because he never outplayed opposing 1st options, right? Looking at just Finals/ECF here are cases where he clearly or has a case for outplaying the opposing #1: 91' ECF, 92' ECF, 92' Finals, 93' ECF (Sports Illustrated said Pippen was the MVP of the series--can you show me a corresponding entry for Irving being MVP of a series per a major source like SI), 97' ECF, 97' Finals, 98' ECF, 98' Finals (before the Game 5 injury--which MJ fans sway back and forth on whether that even happened--during which he was the front-runner for FMVP 2/3 through the series--Irving was never front-runner for FMVP).

The 98' finals is worth isolating. Pippen played at a level where he was front-runner for FMVP before he got hurt (for 3 of their 4 wins). Irving was never front-runner for FMVP. Yet Jordan fans praise Irving's performance as great and then cite 98' Pippen as poor help. Completely agenda driven. Pippen must have been offering some value if he was FMVP front-runner in a series with 5 HOF in it. Yet that is painted as "it was all MJ." Pippen doesn't even get credit for his performance--it actually is portrayed by MJ fans as a negative. :wtf:


consider that Wade in 2011 and 2012, Kyrie in 2016 and 2017, and Davis in 2020 were generally with few exceptions outplaying the 1st options on other teams

Irving was discussed. Davis for sure.

Wade? Questionable. Looking again at the 11' Finals/ECF, people remember how great he was in the finals but forget how shaky he was in the ECF. Wade was the 4th-5th player in the ECF. 12' Finals? Wade outplayed KD? No way. Westbrook was better than Wade too in that series. Westbrook was 27/6/7. We aren't talking 98' Stockton here. 12' ECF? Rondo outplayed him (21/7/11), but your point could still stand here because PP was the closest thing to a "#1" they had. 11' Finals Wade has a case as the best player in the series but down the stretch it was Dirk dominating.

Where is this picture of Wade dominating KD, Rose, Pierce, and Dirk that we were presented? In those series #2 options Westbrook, Rondo, and arguably Deng outplayed him.

We didn't even get to 13' and 14' where Wade was even weaker. So how many series did Wade actually outplay the opposing #2 when LeBron was there? Forget #1's.

You assumed Wade was Wade and crushed the opposing #1/#2 but people forget how strong those #1/#2 option were. 27/6/7 and 21/7/11 from #2 options let alone people like KD or Carmelo as #1 options. To be clear, 12' Wade>12' Rondo but like I noted earlier, talented players can overperform in small sample sizes.

I noticed no mention of the "weak East" here--which MJ fans usually bring up. Isn't it the usual line that the East was a joke? Now Irving outplaying the #1 options on those "weak" teams is praiseworthy? Reading MJ fans' posts you would almost think Irving/Wade and LeBron played in different conferences.

We keep hearing about certain players or certain years but not others. What about LeBron's "help" in 07', 15', 18'? Those count in "4-6" so why doesn't that "help" count when comparing MJ and LeBron's careers? Or half of Wade's tenure with LeBron? He was called a superstar by LeBron detractors in 2013 and 2014. Were they lying then or lying now?

Bottom line: a lot of gymnastics are being used here to fit a narrative that the plain facts don't support. After all, LeBron isn't the one whose team won 55 games without him.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is a loose tabulation.

Wade (2011-2014)

Outplayed the opposing #2 in the Finals/ECF: 11' Finals, 13' Finals, 14' ECF
Outplayed by the opposing #2 in the Finals/ECF: 12' ECF, 12' Finals, 13' ECF, 14' Finals
Debatable: 11' ECF

He was outplayed more often than vice versa. Even if you give him the 11' ECF, that only pulls him to a 50-50 split. The distinction between 11'/12' Wade and 13'/14' Wade isn't relevant here because the absolute individual talent level of the comp in 13'/14' declined along with Wade himself (e.g., going from Westbrook to Parker as the #2 and Rondo to Roy Hibbert in the ECF). So he outplayed the #2 in the 13' Finals, 14' ECF and was outplayed in the 13' ECF and 14' Finals.

What this doesn't capture is the floor. Wade wasn't "just" outplayed by the #2 in something like the 14' finals. He was outplayed by a slew of Spurs.

Pippen (1991-1993, 1996-1998)

Outplayed opposing #2: 91' ECF, 91' Finals, 92' ECF, 92' Finals, 93' ECF, 93' Finals, 97' ECF, 97' Finals, 98' ECF, 98' Finals
Outplayed by opposing #2: 96' Finals
Debatable: 96' ECF

Yet the narrative is Wade provided a bigger edge? :confusedshrug: The one time Pippen was outplayed he had 3 injuries and was comparable to Payton in the series anyway, just not to Kemp. :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

They weren't "absent" because they played poorly. :lol That happens a lot. Another smokescreen to distract from what the MJ crowd avoids like a plague: the performance of opposing players. That happens in a lot of series but that doesn't happen in a vacuum. They don't shake hands and exchange roles, other than if their are injuries. Teams still suffer from KJ choking.

Maybe I'm not understanding you. What is your obsession with the way opposing players played? And of course Phoenix suffered from KJ choking, but it doesn't mean that other guys didn't step up in their place, which is the point.

I'm not sitting here saying MJ had no help, so spare me if that's what you believe. But I'm also not going to sit and say the opposition was utterly useless, either.


This is dishonest and he talks about the "full picture." Jordan fans will go on and on about Kyrie Irving--who was never a threat to win the FMVP. Pippen was through 4 games (3 of the Bulls games). Not a single MJ fan will acknowledge 1) this happened 2) why this was the case 3) Pippen got hurt late in the series (except when convenient to point out MJ 's teams had "injuries" too, as if it compares to what KAJ and LeBron had).

I'm not sure why you consistently draw parallels with what I say and what MJ fans say. My point about Kyrie is to say this: both LeBron and MJ had help, on varying levels at times, but excellent help nonetheless. There are times where LeBron's help is less than MJ's and vice versa; it all depends on what you're comparing. Forget about the finals losses. Let's not even pin the blame on anyone (despite 2007 and 2011), just focus on the wins.

2012: 23/6/5 on 52% TS%, 16.4 GmSc
2013: 20/4/5 on 51% TS%, 14.9 GmSc
2016: 27/4/4 on 56% TS%, 19.1 GmSc
2020: 25/11/3 on 67% TS%, 22.8 GmSc

So this is chicken shit I guess? I know you're not saying that, but I'm merely disproving a narrative here that is consistently mentioned on here.

Never did I say Kyrie > Pippen. But Kyrie's 2016 and 2017 finals performances stack up well against most of Pippen's performances. Why is that a crime?


To add to the dishonesty, he talks about "filling in" and then pretends Kukoc was not the 2nd option at the end of the series. He knows this because we have went over this many times. He still deceives--because he can't admit what the actual full picture would show.

My bad. I always confuse the years. Those numbers were from 1997, not 1998. Sue me.


Stockton didn't even put up double digit scoring in that series. He had a 2 point game. He watched the Utah #1 offense get wrecked and failed to counter it. But his TS % was good on 8 wide open shots per game.

Again, my bad; what I showed was from 1997.


:wtf: is this? Your own numbers show Pippen in his worst finals basically on par with the other team's #1 option. :lol

You're right. Let's compare Kemp to Pippen

Kemp: 63% TS%/ 116 ORTG/ 106 DRTG/ 18.9 GmSc
Pippen: 43% TS%/ 106 ORTG/ 103 DRTG/ 13.4 GmSc

Does this change the argument? Or are you going to continue to be stubborn?


This guy thinks Divac=Pippen in impact in the 91' finals. This is how low they have to go. :lol

Absolutely not, but Divac overachieved in that finals, which is essentially my point. Other guys can step up when you don't expect them to. Let's look more closely:

Divac Reg. Season: 11/8/1/1/1.5 on 57%
Divac 1st Round: 16/10/1/2/3 on 48%
Divac 2nd Round: 7/5/0.4/0.2/0.4 on 55%
Divac 3rd Round: 13/5/1/2/3 on 62%
Divac Finals: 18/9/2/2/2.5 on 57%

One of these series is not like the others. This isn't to say that Divac was more "impactful" than Pippen, but you're operating as the "competition" gave nothing to Magic.


14-15 PPG--a PPG number that is awfully similar to the 98' finals numbers you post all the time. No help in 98'. No help in 89'. No help ever. :(

Again, you keep saying things like "no help ever" as if to say that is my claim. It isn't. MJ had a lot of help. I keep repeating that but it just doesn't stick.

You tend not to look at the intent of the responses nor do you realize half of what you quote from me is in direct response to what you or someone else says. My point about '89 was to show that MJ was perfectly capable of leading a team like the '07 Cavs to the finals. Stop extrapolating what isn't there.

[HoopsNY]

Yet more deception. Try to keep up with the discussion. The comparison was Pippen to Irving. 98' Pippen missed 38 games and still made all-NBA. Irving didn't (and literally got 0 votes). There is an obvious implication here--if you assume both eras were equal...This is peak Kyrie, the only thing about his career people ever talk about vs. end of prime Pippen too. Yet these are painted as equal players.

I don't care what the comparison was. I'm not here saying Irving > Pippen. I'm saying Irving's support is one of the best 2nd option supports ever. That doesn't diminish from Pippen, nor does it diminish from LeBron.

Pippen won All-NBA 3rd team for playing in 44 games. Not sure if that was fair, but in the event that it was, did Pippen have to compete with a top heavy forward league at the time? I recall Kemp and Barkley falling off significantly. Maybe Keith Van Horn? If you minus the players that won All-NBA honors, who did Pippen have to compete with as opposed to Irving with other guards in that year?

But my point was never about the regular season. The emphasis should be placed on what Kyrie did in the playoffs and finals. No one is trying to say that Kyrie has had a better peak, prime, or career than Pippen. At least, I would sure hope not.


The burden is on MJ fans hyping Irving to show why peak Irving was perceived that way in real time. The proferred excuse, that he was injured, is laughable. (Real) Superstars make all-NBA all the time even when they miss that many games.

It's a non-sequitur really. What Irving did in the regular season has little to do with what he was able to accomplish in the playoffs. Dan mentioned similar.


Yet more deception. Don't you ever get tired of lying? That post was to mock MJ stans for doing the same thing--which you are fine with I am sure.

I didn't realize you were simply mocking them. Furthermore, I've gone on a rant against MJ stans for their LeBron hatred. The difference here is, why are you so invested in one and not the other?

My purpose is to defend 60 years of basketball against a new era that seems to think for 60 years, we had just "plumbers" and "janitors." I do it with Bird, Hakeem, and MJ. MJ just happens to be the consistent topic of discussion due to the GOAT debate.

[HoopsNY]

A consistent takeaway from this, and other threads, is MJ fans don't want to compare sidekicks--except if you are comparing fictional match ups between 1993 and 2020 (without ever adjusting for pace, higher scoring, rules changes, etc.). This is a "tell": they know MJ's comp had weak sidekicks. Rarely even HOF players. LeBron's comp probably had more HOF 3rd options than MJ's did 2nd options. That is an inconvenient fact since in their narratives MJ and LeBron played golf with 11 other players. There was no opposing team, no opposing lineup to compare against.

Do you even read anything that I say? Or do you just like to type long essays of the same things over and over again. I've said over and over, both MJ and LeBron had plenty of help, but to varying degrees. Some years LeBron had better help than MJ did and vice versa.

We looked at Pippen's numbers in 3 of Chicago's 6 titles. The assumption here is that you can delete Pippen, input another player who can put up 15 pts on 40%, and the Bulls will likely still win. Even if they don't, so what? It doesn't change anything.

The same goes for LeBron. But yea, we can talk about sidekicks, but we also have to talk about the remaining supporting casts. So when a guy like Divac contributes 18/9/3 on 61% TS%, or when Kemp outplays Pippen, we're just supposed to ignore that as if it is meaningless?

MJ was a winner with varying degrees of "help" and "competition," just as LeBron.

You want to conveniently speak about LeBron's comp having more HOF 3rd options as if his teams are devoid of the same. Odd. And I really wonder who is saying the things you're saying we're saying, cause it sure isn't me.


That argument can be made but won't persuade many outside of the existing MJ base. For one, you are comparing the roster that won a chip two years later--and per the MJ narrative--would have won the next year in 90' but for the migraine (Pippen apparently here was good enough to turn around an 18-20 point defeat in that game for agenda purposes--and he isn't even in his prime yet--but he was not so good from 1991-1998). The same roster.

So this is how it works now? We wanna look at the '89 team through the lens of a championship team two years later? Did Cleveland not win 66 games and get defeated despite being the favorites in the ECF just two years after their finals appearance, or are we going to act like that didn't happen?

Mind boggling. What goes for MJ doesn't go for LeBron.


With MJ it always is "no help." Pippen was 1st team all-NBA and top 5 in MVP in 96' (even AD was not top 5 this year--he was 6th). "No help" we keep hearing. They won 72 games with MJ by himself, evidently.

Again, who is saying MJ won with "no help"? And what relevance does Pippen's regular season accolades have with him in the finals?


LeBron also makes his teammates better so you can't just look at what they did individually. That is why Jordan couldn't make a finals with Drew Gooden and Daniel Gibson.

Nice. The new mantra, "Jordan couldn't make his teammates better" :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

What is your obsession with the way opposing players played?

Context: teams play against each other, not in a vacuum. MJ fans bitch about his teammates and don't say a word about worse performances from opposing players. Highly hypocritical to complain about 16 PPG when the other team was getting 9.7 PPG, for instance.


2012: 23/6/5 on 52% TS%, 16.4 GmSc
2013: 20/4/5 on 51% TS%, 14.9 GmSc
2016: 27/4/4 on 56% TS%, 19.1 GmSc
2020: 25/11/3 on 67% TS%, 22.8 GmSc



Those numbers were from 1997, not 1998

They were 98'. Pippen put up 20 PPG in 97' and his TS % was strong (for the era)--higher than MJ's.


Does this change the argument?

Nope. Pippen was outplayed by the opposing sidekick 1x out of 6 finals. When you look at ECF's during those years, it was a clean sweep, although Penny at least has a case for the 96' ECF. That's 11 of 12. Not 3/8 for Wade in the corresponding series. With Pippen we get cherry picking to elide the overall trend of consistent excellence.

No difference between reliable, 11 of 12 "help" and inconsistent 3 of 8? The Bulls don't win if Johnson, Porter, Stockton outplayed Pippen in those four finals.


you're operating as the "competition" gave nothing to Magic.

What I said is Pippen outplayed Worthy--a player Jordan fans love to hype as the type of sidekick they wish MJ had (i.e., that Worthy was the better player).

As to what Magic got, they lost 4-1 so they apparently they didn't get much--unless you are laying the loss at Magic's feet a la 11' LeBron.


My point about '89 was to show that MJ was perfectly capable of leading a team like the '07 Cavs to the finals

Which implies the 89' Bulls roster=the 07' Cavs roster, which is ridiculous. 89' Pippen and Grant are Drew Gooden and Daniel Gibson.


I'm saying Irving's support is one of the best 2nd option supports ever.

Sure.


Pippen won All-NBA 3rd team for playing in 44 games. Not sure if that was fair, but in the event that it was, did Pippen have to compete with a top heavy forward league at the time? I recall Kemp and Barkley falling off significantly

The presumption with MJ's teammates is always negative. Irving didn't make all-NBA--did not even get a single vote--and we got excuses for why he didn't or why he has done it twice in nine seasons. Pippen makes it and we are hearing reasons why that accomplishment doesn't matter, maybe he shouldn't have made it, etc. The bad faith is unbelievable.

This is a BS exercise. There were plenty of forwards who were all-NBA contenders, including the 98' version of Kemp (Hill, Duncan, Kemp, Malone, Rice, Baker, Webber, etc.) Your excuse doesn't explain why "top 5 player" Kyrie got 0 votes when something like 13-15 guards did.

Pippen made it for the same reason LeBron did last year or Curry a few years ago and other superstars make it despite missing time (of course, only Pippen gets scrutiny for the crime of playing with MJ). Ben Simmons did it this year. Irving isn't on that level so 50 games of him won't cut it.


The emphasis should be placed on what Kyrie did in the playoffs and finals.

Yeah, he was excellent for a short span of time but we don't have this standard applied to Wade, do we? For Wade it is the entire year. Rondo outplayed him in 12'. Westbrook outplayed him in 12'. Deng arguably did in 11'. Instead we hear "Wade>every 1st option" when he was getting outplayed often by 2nd options. :lol

Good players get hot. Porter had a huge WCF--destroyed Stockton--in 92' and was great through 3 rounds. Irving isn't the first player to get hot and play above his level. The question is, where has that Irving been for the other 500 or whatever # of games he has played? Did he retire in 16'? What happened since?

[Roundball_Rock]

My purpose is to defend 60 years of basketball against a new era that seems to think for 60 years, we had just "plumbers" and "janitors."

Which MJ fans play into. If Irving=Pippen or Irving>Pippen, and Irving is all-NBA as frequently as Draymond Green is in this era, how weak must have Pippen's era (which=MJ's) been then? :lol


he assumption here is that you can delete Pippen, input another player who can put up 15 pts on 40%

All this talk about "fairness for Kyrie" without a single acknowledgement of Pippen's dominance for 4/6 of the 98' finals. There was a lot more than "16 PPG" going on.

The problem with the assumption is Pippen wasn't putting up 15 on 40%. Again, MJ's teammates defined by their worst--LeBron's by their best. 16' finals wasn't Kyrie's norm and neither was 15 PPG on 40% for Pippen.

One of the series you listed was 21/9/8. His FT % randomly dipped in 6 games. And? It happens. His FT % randomly was at 89% in his next 10 PO games. Obvious statistical noise. 21/9/8 with elite defense. That's a lot of production (I didn't see Dan Majerle nearly averaging a triple double--that is who you want to substitute in because KJ struggled--and Majerle got raped on defense so you can't argue he was a plus there). 98' finals. Front-runner for FMVP. A lot of production. You need Game 6--where even Dan said Pippen was hurt and the game shouldn't even count as him playing--to get to "16". It was "20" before he got hurt--which is a lot when the other side is getting "20" combined from Stockton/Hornacek (Stockton is a sidekick MJ fans praise as a gold standard of sidekicks for the era).

96' is the only legit bad PO run he had, and even there he had a good ECF (the first two rounds were formalities). In the finals he was bad but Rodman stepped up and outplayed Pippen, Payton, arguably Kemp and even arguably MJ. Rodman got several FMVP votes. You get this concept with Divac having a good series (part of which he was guarded by a 6'6" guard...). Why not with Rodman? No one thought Divac was FMVP-worthy in 91'. He just has some pretty stats on BBR that people like you like to bring up three decades later.


MJ was a winner with varying degrees of "help"

And Santa Claus is real. The reason we hear so much about the 96' finals and 92' ECSF is those are the only series where Pippen was outplayed by the other sidekick or underperformed. That's it. Wade was getting outplayed routinely in the Finals/ECF with LeBron--and you guys praise him. :roll: "Wade>Pippen. Imagine if MJ had a player like Wade!" Yeah, imagine if MJ had a player getting outplayed by Rondo or Roy Hibbert. That somehow would help MJ. :lol Wade had good series too--but inconsistency can be fatal when you can be eliminated in 4 games.


You want to conveniently speak about LeBron's comp having more HOF 3rd options as if his teams are devoid of the same.

That's the point: look at both sides of the equation (which MJ fans never do because it undercuts the narrative, whether for MJ's teammates or LeBron's). What did Bosh actually do compared to the other side? You guys seem to think the Heat were awarded points for big names. They weren't.

Bosh/Love were good but MJ fans oversell them so hard there is no way they can meet the hype when Bosh was something like 12/7/1 or 13/7/1 in the PO in Miami.


And what relevance does Pippen's regular season accolades have with him in the finals?

The same relevance 99' Robinson being 12th, not 5th, 12th in MVP evidently does to you when it comes to him.

[GrayGoat]

MJ is career dependent on Pippen. Therefore he can’t be the goat

[3ball]

lebron's talent-seeking avoids having to be actually COACHED into a system.. he can just run the suboptimal bron-ball because the extra talent is there to offset suboptimal brand.. and yes, ball-dominance has a lower championship expectation than ball movement, everything else being equal.. a brand that's bad at winning on the Finals level kills championship expectation compared to other greats/skillsets that cater to a more optimal style (ball movement)

[LAmbruh]

no pip no chip

[Roundball_Rock]

A lot of the Jordan argument is LeBron did less with more and Jordan more with less. That falls apart pretty easily under any scrutiny. We don't hear what Wade, Bosh, and Love actually were doing and that tells you something. With Irving we do--with the convenient overlooking of Irving not being there when it counted in 15' in the finals--because there is a good story to tell there (while ignoring Love was a role player in the same finals).

You would think the only series these players played were the 11' and 16' finals. Basically silence about what they did in every other series. :lol

[dankok8]

Completely agree with HoopsNY here and his premise. Both Jordan and Lebron had variable levels of help and competition and this kind of analysis has to be done on a year-by-year basis. And yes the bottom line is both men had plenty of help as did just about every player ever to win a title in the NBA.

My article didn't say that Lebron had better casts but simply that he didn't have worse casts. It's not even an argument I want to pursue talking about supporting casts unless it's blatantly obvious for example 1986 Bird vs Jordan or 2018 Lebron vs Durant. My responses here in this thread were simply to temper some takes and provide a different perspective. It's impossible and uninteresting to try to prove that 2016 Kyrie was better than 1992 Pippen for example. At least for me...

[Roundball_Rock]

Completely agree with HoopsNY here and his premise. Both Jordan and Lebron had variable levels of help and competition and this kind of analysis has to be done on a year-by-year basis. And yes the bottom line is both men had plenty of help as did just about every player ever to win a title in the NBA.

This is false. Jordan got an unusually high level of consistency (name other players who did? Shaq with Kobe, Kareem with Magic?). Even one of the rare examples invoked of underperformance, the 96' finals, is one where Rodman more than stepped up to fill that void. The one finals/ECF series invoked is one in which Rodman arguably was the best player in the entire series. That is the shining example of a lack of help/variability/etc. :lol That leaves the 92' ECSF. That's literally it.

Variable is what Wade, Bosh, and Love did. Forget year to year. Series to series. One player outplaying the opposition in 6 of 6 ECFs isn't the same as doing it once in four tries. It is absurd to equate the two.

Moreover, the 15' finals/ECF or 07' playoffs or 18' playoffs is a much lower floor than MJ ever got during those finals runs. We know this because it is another dog that didn't bark. If MJ's teammates were getting outplayed the way LeBron's were in those 3 finals runs, we would never hear the end of it. :lol The closest examples we get? 96', which was mentioned earlier, and the 98' playoffs. A playoff run where the Bulls' 4th best player outplayed the Pacers' best player (Miller) in the ECF and Game 7 (as did Pippen), Pippen was front-runner for FMVP for most of the finals, etc. This is presented as a floor for MJ...in series where Smits was okay, Jackson got wrecked, Stockton and Hornacek did nothing on the other side. Yet Jordan was the one with a lack of help, not Malone. :oldlol:

A lot of your argument is built on false premises like Wade's level of play (for Wade you guys want to talk about year long performance; for Irving a couple series. Which is it? ). The guy was outplayed by Rondo and Westbrook in the ECF and finals in 12' and you are claiming he was outplaying #1 options regularly during that time frame.

[TheCorporation]

imagine only making 6 finals

like wtf were you doing the rest of your career? waiting for pippen to bail you out?


https://i.postimg.cc/v83kqbKX/bango-bango.gif


Oh

:roll:

Boy

:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh

:roll:

Boy

:roll:

Didn't you guys read the thread? Pippen outplayed the comp in all 6 ECF and 5 of 6 finals. That isn't good enough. That's "variable." If only MJ had a more reliable teammate like Wade apparently was, while getting outplayed in 3 of 4 ECF's and half those finals. :(

[MadDog]

lebron's talent-seeking avoids having to be actually COACHED into a system.. he can just run the suboptimal bron-ball because the extra talent is there to offset suboptimal brand.. and yes, ball-dominance has a lower championship expectation than ball movement, everything else being equal.. a brand that's bad at winning on the Finals level kills championship expectation compared to other greats/skillsets that cater to a more optimal style (ball movement)

Its why he is constantly viewed as a underdog. Not this year, because LeBron had a teammate who was actually better than him. :oldlol: Or like Wade in Miami circa 2010/2011 etc. Generally speaking though LeBron teams are shoe-in dogs because of that inferior brand of ball. The last two titles LeBron has won, his "help" was either better than the other teams 1st option OR better than LeBron himself. :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Which MJ fans play into. If Irving=Pippen or Irving>Pippen, and Irving is all-NBA as frequently as Draymond Green is in this era, how weak must have Pippen's era (which=MJ's) been then? :lol

Who is saying Irving=Pippen? When did I say Irving > Pippen? Unreal. All I'm saying is that Irving gave contributions that were on par or better than Pippen. How many times do I have to repeat this?


All this talk about "fairness for Kyrie" without a single acknowledgement of Pippen's dominance for 4/6 of the 98' finals. There was a lot more than "16 PPG" going on.

"Dominance"? Maybe 3/6. I wouldn't call his performances dominant by 4/6, though. But if you'd like to believe that, then be my guest. I'm not going to debate with you over word choice, either. Feel free to think that.


The problem with the assumption is Pippen wasn't putting up 15 on 40%. Again, MJ's teammates defined by their worst--LeBron's by their best. 16' finals wasn't Kyrie's norm and neither was 15 PPG on 40% for Pippen.

Not at all. I am simply looking at Pippen's "worst" production, which still resulted in Chicago victories, vs. ALL of LeBron's titles, which come by way of great sidekick contributions. You see the difference here?

This isn't to say that Pippen didn't contribute in every finals that he played in. He did. But when his '98 finals wasn't equal to that of '92, Chicago won. When his '96 performance wasn't equal to that of '91, Chicago still won. See what I mean?


One of the series you listed was 21/9/8. His FT % randomly dipped in 6 games. And? It happens. His FT % randomly was at 89% in his next 10 PO games. Obvious statistical noise. 21/9/8 with elite defense. That's a lot of production (I didn't see Dan Majerle nearly averaging a triple double--that is who you want to substitute in because KJ struggled--and Majerle got raped on defense so you can't argue he was a plus there). 98' finals. Front-runner for FMVP. A lot of production. You need Game 6--where even Dan said Pippen was hurt and the game shouldn't even count as him playing--to get to "16". It was "20" before he got hurt--which is a lot when the other side is getting "20" combined from Stockton/Hornacek (Stockton is a sidekick MJ fans praise as a gold standard of sidekicks for the era).


My point about 1993 was that while Pippen performed well and better than Majerle, that doesn't mean that Majerle wasn't anywhere to be found. It's all about competition, except when it isn't.

Furthermore, you speak about Majerle getting raped, by whose hands? The greatest player that played the game. Now go look at Dumas' numbers.

Dumas 1993 Finals: 16 PPG, 61% TS%, 120 ORTG, 13 GmSc

Who was guarding Dumas? I guess this doesn't matter, either.


96' is the only legit bad PO run he had, and even there he had a good ECF (the first two rounds were formalities). In the finals he was bad but Rodman stepped up and outplayed Pippen, Payton, arguably Kemp and even arguably MJ. Rodman got several FMVP votes. You get this concept with Divac having a good series (part of which he was guarded by a 6'6" guard...). Why not with Rodman? No one thought Divac was FMVP-worthy in 91'. He just has some pretty stats on BBR that people like you like to bring up three decades later.


You're hinging everything on this asinine concept that we have to rank player above another player by simply doing a plug and play. Take what I said and leave it, Divac was great support from the competition. If that doesn't sit well with you, then I don't know what to tell you.


That's the point: look at both sides of the equation (which MJ fans never do because it undercuts the narrative, whether for MJ's teammates or LeBron's). What did Bosh actually do compared to the other side? You guys seem to think the Heat were awarded points for big names. They weren't.

That's been my point the entire time. Suddenly, Bosh matters. How ironic.


The same relevance 99' Robinson being 12th, not 5th, 12th in MVP evidently does to you when it comes to him.

Once again, you're conflating arguments.

Anyway, I've made my point. If you want to carry on the notion that I believe Kyrie > Pippen, then go right ahead. I'm not gonna continue talking to a wall. This is like talking to 3ball now.

I've reiterated my point several times. The whole concept of sidekicks and diminishing one's supporting cast is dumb. MJ had support, LeBron had support. End of that.

[HoopsNY]

They were 98'. Pippen put up 20 PPG in 97' and his TS % was strong (for the era)--higher than MJ's.

No, it was 1997. Go and look at it again.

Pippen '97 Finals: 54% TS%, 101 ORTG, 101 DRTG, 15.1 GmSc
Stockton '97 Finals: 61% TS%, 111 ORTG, 103 DRTG, 14.9 GmSc

Go look at what I originally said. I said the competition generally had someone that was on par or better than Pippen.


What I said is Pippen outplayed Worthy--a player Jordan fans love to hype as the type of sidekick they wish MJ had (i.e., that Worthy was the better player).

I've never made this argument about Jordan having Worthy :facepalm


As to what Magic got, they lost 4-1 so they apparently they didn't get much--unless you are laying the loss at Magic's feet a la 11' LeBron.

Right because the main contributor to that series wasn't MJ both offensively and defensively, putting up 31/7/11 with 3 steals on 56%. :facepalm


Which implies the 89' Bulls roster=the 07' Cavs roster, which is ridiculous. 89' Pippen and Grant are Drew Gooden and Daniel Gibson.


You have difficulty contextualizing statistics and arguments. When comparing teams/games/eras, you simply can't do a plug and play. Not to mention, you're completely overlooking the fact that Chicago faced much better opponents in the Eastern Conference playoffs that year to Cleveland in 2007.

It's impossible that MJ would have led the Cavs to beating Washington, New Jersey, and Detroit in '07? I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this.

And I love how you mention Gooden and Gibson, but not Gooden and Ilgauskas, or Gooden/Hughes. You have to insert Gibson. How ironic.


The presumption with MJ's teammates is always negative. Irving didn't make all-NBA--did not even get a single vote--and we got excuses for why he didn't or why he has done it twice in nine seasons. Pippen makes it and we are hearing reasons why that accomplishment doesn't matter, maybe he shouldn't have made it, etc. The bad faith is unbelievable.

No one cares what he did in the regular season. Go look at what Kyrie did in the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

All I'm saying is that Irving gave contributions that were on par or better than Pippen

Hair splitting: another way of saying Irving>Pippen or Irving=Pippen.


"Dominance"? Maybe 3/6. I wouldn't call his performances dominant by 4/6, though.

Not sure what you mean by those numbers. What I meant was in 4 of the 6 games, in other words 67% of the series and 75% of their wins. If a player is FMVP front-runner that deep into a series, he must be doing something big, especially when there are 5 HOF on the court and a 6th former all-star.


I am simply looking at Pippen's "worst" production, which still resulted in Chicago victories, vs. ALL of LeBron's titles, which come by way of great sidekick contributions. You see the difference here?

Again, without context. MJ fans don't want to compare head-to-head. For example, Westbrook>Wade in that series. That's why you aren't posting the Westbrook numbers. Pippen>KJ, Pippen>Stockton in 93', 98'. 96', yeah Kemp>Pippen but Rodman>Kemp as well as Rodman>Payton so the 3rd guy filled the void and then some. So the examples that are brought up of "not great" contributions were still great compared to the comp.

Your three examples are one series where Rodman was FMVP-worthy (got FMVP votes), another where Pippen was FMVP front-runner before he got hurt in Game 5, and a third series where Pippen went 21/9/8. These are the examples of "variability." Wade getting outplayed by Hibbert or Rondo or Spurs' role players? Routine occurrences, unfortunately. Yet Wade was held up as a model of, even 12' Wade, outplayed in both the ECF and NBA finals by Westbrook, Rondo. That's the model of a superior sidekick yet Pippen is the one getting assailed for apparently not outplaying Stockton by enough? Sad to see but obvious why their is blatant hypocrisy.


But when his '98 finals wasn't equal to that of '92, Chicago won.

He wasn't getting any FMVP talk in 92'. You place a lot of stock on the guy being injured the final two games and that altering his final stats (which never captured the defense anyway). Incidentally, Robinson 99' got no FMVP talk. Neither did 16' Irving. Two finals you praise so what's the beef with 98'?


My point about 1993 was that while Pippen performed well and better than Majerle, that doesn't mean that Majerle wasn't anywhere to be found.

Who cares? What did Majerle or Divac actually do? All this talk about them but no acknowledgment of Rodman's FMVP caliber performance.

MJ doesn't cut it as an excuse. MJ didn't come anywhere near the numbers Majerle ceded to him in his other finals and probably not in any series, outside of a 3 game first round series.


Pippen '97 Finals: 54% TS%, 101 ORTG, 101 DRTG, 15.1 GmSc
Stockton '97 Finals: 61% TS%, 111 ORTG, 103 DRTG, 14.9 GmSc

Go look at what I originally said. I said the competition generally had someone that was on par or better than Pippen.

Nobody thought Stockton was on par with Pippen in the series. :lol Stockton's game is geared towards gaming those type of stats, i.e., he took only wide open shots, video game Sloan system assist #'s (see Williams, Deron) so his TS/ORTG/etc. are inflated. Pippen was taking contested shots like a real superstar does and getting double teamed (Stockton wasn't).

Pippen arguably was better than Malone in the series (Malone scored 3.8 PPG more but on poor efficiency and Pippen was superior defensively). There is a trend here: "punching above your weight" is a big deal with Divac or Majerle but no acknowledgment in this thread that MJ's teammates ever did it (or that opponents of LeBron ever did it, Roy Hibbert could never outplay Wade, right?).


Right because the main contributor to that series wasn't MJ both offensively and defensively, putting up 31/7/11 with 3 steals on 56%

That doesn't explain it. Jordan was even better in 92' and better still in 93'. The Blazers and Suns came to the cusp of forcing Game 7's. The Lakers got backdoor swept.


And I love how you mention Gooden and Gibson, but not Gooden and Ilgauskas, or Gooden/Hughes. You have to insert Gibson.

How old are you? Hughes? Hughes was shot by the ECF and didn't even play half the finals. Hughes was 7/3/2 in the ECF and 1/3/1 in the Finals. He was their #2 option--when healthy, but are we to pretend 1/3/1 was their 2nd option in the series? :oldlol: Illgauskas? He was 8 PPG in the finals.

I don't recall MJ ever getting 1/3/1 due to injuries from a 2nd option. I am sure LeBron would love to "struggle" with the "variability" of 21/9/8 instead of 1/3/1.


No one cares what he did in the regular season. Go look at what Kyrie did in the playoffs.

The problem: for Wade it is literally the opposite from Kyrie advocates in this thread. :lol Yeah, Wade got outplayed routinely in big series but, hey, he was better than Rondo and Hibbert over the full 100 games, right?

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is the "variability" they are bitching about, kids.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937


Most players consider playing defense barely more than a necessary evil, something to be done so the fun part of the game can be resumed. Then there's Bulls forward Scottie Pippen, who can do all that as well as anyone. But his passion and talent for shutting down opponents has turned him into the defensive equivalent of his more offensive-minded teammate, Michael Jordan.

"Scottie sets the tempo defensively," Jordan said. "The more active he is, the better we are. His confidence is just as strong as mine, his competitiveness is just as strong as mine. It's like playing with a twin brother."


t was a defensive masterpiece by the Bulls, one unmatched in NBA history, not to mention Finals history. The Jazz's 54 points might have been just enough to beat the Green Bay Packers. This wasn't a basketball game, it was Kerry Wood blowing away the Houston Astros. It was Bob Gibson in the World Series. It was one man taking out a team.

Oh, sure, this was a team effort by the Bulls. Ron Harper was wonderful in steering Stockton toward the baseline to limit the options on the Jazz's famed pick-and-roll. So was Michael Jordan, who took just 14 shots but still had 24 points to lead the Bulls. But it was mostly Pippen, who has thwarted the Jazz like no other player, never mind a whole team. And his 10 points, four rebounds and four assists were only part of the story.

After the Bulls defeated the Jazz in the Finals last season, Stockton's summary was that the Jazz had no answer for Pippen. Utah is still failing that test. "The luxury for us is to have a defender like Scottie who can cover more than one situation at a time," coach Phil Jackson said.

If the Bulls win these Finals, Pippen should be the Most Valuable Player. "There have been terrific defenders in the history of the Finals," Jackson said. "You can go back to (Michael) Cooper for the Lakers, and Bobby Jones with the 76ers and other players who have played outstanding defense. The majority of those players are great one-on-one players. Scottie is able to be a one-man wrecking crew"


Pippen is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in NBA history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Conference finals.


"The first time I came to Chicago, I didn't have that kind of person beside me," Jordan said. "Ever since he's been here, it's made it a lot easier for me." You can look it up. Jordan was a thrill-a-minute scoring machine, and yet in his first three years in the league the Bulls failed to achieve a winning record. Since Pippen's arrival in 1987, Chicago has had 11 straight winning seasons, and the two have developed into the best duo in the league.

Perhaps the most versatile player in the game, who is able to make his mark as a scorer, rebounder or passer, Pippen is standing out this postseason as a defender, no surprise for an eight-time member of the all-NBA defensive team. It was his ability to play the role of a "floater" defensively that set the tone for Sunday's 96-54 win over the Utah Jazz that gave Chicago a 2-1 lead in the NBA Finals. Karl Malone who, while ornery yesterday, took time to praise Pippen. "He could be the best defensive player playing."

Or one of the best ever, according to Hall of Fame coach Jack Ramsay. "I can't think of anybody as good, and there were some great defenders," Ramsay added. "He's the best. He's long, he has a great wingspan, great foot quickness, foot speed and elevation. He has the heart to take a charge from whomever, and he's unbelievable in recovering from help position to run at a shooter. He's amazing"

Damn, how did MJ overcome this poor performance from Pippen (especially in Game 3, because he had 10/4/4 so he must have sucked in that game, right?)? :bowdown:

[3ball]

The 89' bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs, so they would beat the #6 Pistons in 07' and the #4 Magic in 09'.

Those Cavs had a big 4, and also the #2 defense, #1 SRS, and +800 preseason odds - that's a better team than lebron ever beat in the East - no team that lebron beat ranks so highly in all four of those categories

[3ball]

The 89' bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs, so they would beat the #6 Pistons in 07' and the #4 Magic in 09'.

Those Cavs had a big 4, and also the #2 defense, #1 SRS, and +800 preseason odds - that's a better team than lebron ever beat in the East - no team that lebron beat ranks so highly in all four of those categories

No one

[Roundball_Rock]

The 89' bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs, so they would beat the #6 Pistons in 07' and the #4 Magic in 09'.

Those Cavs had a big 4, and also the #2 defense, #1 SRS, and +800 preseason odds - that's a better team than lebron ever beat in the East - no team that lebron beat ranks so highly in all four of those categories

Cavs had a big 4 with zero HOFers. :roll:

This is why I love MJ stans. The Cavs were stacked! Look at that cast and that great #1 Mark Price! Except when Mark Price went down they played at a 24 win level during those 66 games. Meanwhile, the Bulls were not stacked (except in 1994, apparently). Jordan had subpar help but his team won 55 games without him.

Every team is stacked in the MJ funhouse mirror--except MJ's team (unless MJ was retired).

[3ball]

Cavs had a big 4 with zero HOFers. :roll:

This is why I love MJ stans. The Cavs were stacked! Look at that cast and that great #1 Mark Price! Except when Mark Price went down they played at a 24 win level during those 66 games. Meanwhile, the Bulls were not stacked (except in 1994, apparently). Jordan had subpar help but his team won 55 games without him.

Every team is stacked in the MJ funhouse mirror--except MJ's team (unless MJ was retired).

Injuries and Jordan stopped them from being HOF's

This is common knowledge, so you're showing your ignorance.. they were #1 SRS for a reason

[3ball]

you guys are simply conflating Jordan's feats in a super-team conference (80's) with lebron's exploits in a 1-star conference (00's)

Oakley was a rebounder and 2nd option in 88', while pippen averaged 8 points off the bench - MJ carried these guys to 50 wins and the 3 seed in a conference that required a super-team to win it (not a 1-star conference like the 00's East)..

In 89', Jordan carried a 6 seed over the #1 SRS Cavs, who had a big 4 and the #2 defense.. that's a better team than lebron ever beat in the East, and Jordan beat them with a low seed and 2nd year Pippen getting 15 on 40% (14/6/3 on 46% in regular season).

Since the 89' Bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs, they would beat the #6 SRS Pistons in 07', or the #4 SRS Magic in 09'..

[Roundball_Rock]

It's sad to see you reduced to this. 89' first round your shining example of a series.

What's your take on the Wade, Irving, Pippen discussion? The undercurrent seemed to be higher expectations for Pippen. Pippen should have outplayed players by more while Wade being outplayed by Rondo, Hibbert types isn't even deemed worth commenting on. I guess they expected it, given the inconsistency series to series, or in denial as a coping mechanism for #4. Or Irving getting praised for outplaying Paul Millsap. Give him a medal?

[3ball]

.

Here's SB Nation detailing how the Spurs exploited specific holes in Lebron's game:


There's a reason Miami is struggling when lebron/wade are on the floor together.. The Spurs' defensive strategy throughout the playoffs has been simple: identify players who aren't good spot-up shooters and help mercilessly off them to cramp the space of penetrators.

Wade has been one of the players San Antonio identified as a poor spot-up shooter that can be helped off mercilessly. That has cramped LeBron's space when the two are in together. The inverse is also true: the Spurs are shrinking Wade's space by helping off LeBron.

However, when one of the two is out of the game in favor of additional perimeter shooting, there's nobody the Spurs can help off, giving LeBron and Wade more space to be themselves and attack San Antonio's air-tight schemes.

https://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/19/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6


TLDR: the Spurs forced Wade and Lebron to be spot-up shooters (their weakness) by leaving them open when the other guy drives.. otoh, Jordan was an elite spot-up shooter and off-ball player, so the Spurs couldn't employ their strategy and would lose.. otoh, the Spurs perfected their strategy in 14' and destroyed the Heat

[3ball]

It's sad to see you reduced to this. 89' first round your shining example of a series.

What's your take on the Wade, Irving, Pippen discussion? The undercurrent seemed to be higher expectations for Pippen. Pippen should have outplayed players by more while Wade being outplayed by Rondo, Hibbert types isn't even deemed worth commenting on. I guess they expected it, given the inconsistency series to series, or in denial as a coping mechanism for #4. Or Irving getting praised for outplaying Paul Millsap. Give him a medal?

Heat had 3 stars so Wade couldn't always have the usage that pippen enjoyed on a 2-star team

And Lebron's skillset wasn't expansive enough to fit with Wade's game - everyone knows Wade/lebron weren't a good fit, as SB Nation outlines in the previous post above.. so that also hurt Wade's stats, especially in the playoffs when teams are trying to exploit opponent weaknesses..

Finally, we know that pippen was either outscored or matched with better efficiency in 42% of series as a Bull (33% during championship years)

We also know that Houston couldn't win the 1st round with him at 3rd option..

only MJ could win with him, let alone at 2nd option.. everyone else needs a FMVP-caliber sidekick or someone that can average 25-30.. the only exceptions are asterisk rings of Dirk (needed goat choke), and Hakeem (needed MJ to retire)

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is Wade in the ECF/Finals. In honor of Dan Majerle, I am counting random players whose on paper stats look decent (what you didn't hear is Majerle scoring 16 or 17 but coughed up a pathetic 41 on the other end). The sidekick, though, is denoted by an asterisk. All percentages are TS. "GS" means game score.

2011 ECF

Wade 19/6/2 50% 11.1 GS
Deng* 17/7/2 53% 11.4 GS
Boozer 14/10/2 50% 12.1 GS

Boozer, Noah, Nate Robinson were all basically in a dead heat with Wade a few years later, but it was the second round so not counted here.

2011 Finals

Wade 27/7/5 61% 22.7 GS
Terry 18/2/3 61% 13.4 GS

This is what they want you to think Wade consistently was, probably why that is the only Wade series they actually ever talk about it.

2012 ECF

Wade 21/6/5 52% 15.4 GS
Rondo* 21/7/11 53% 18.9 GS
Garnett 19/9/1 52% 13.2 GS

2012 Finals

Wade 23/6/5 52% 16.4 GS
Westbrook 27/6/7 50% 18.9 GS

Wade outplayed--gets praised for it.

2013 ECF

Wade 15/5/4 50% 11.7 GS
Hibbert* 22/10/1 61% 16.9 GS
West 17/9/2 50% 11.2 GS
Hill 13/3/4 55% 9.6 GS

2013 Finals

Wade 20/4/5 51% TS 14.9 GS
Parker* 16/2/6 47% 11.2 GS
Kawhi 15/11/1 58% 14.2 GS

Wade outplays in an ECF/Finals for the first time 3 series, but the Spurs' 4th best player is right on his tail.

2014 ECF

Wade 20/4/5 62% 15.7 GS
West* 16/7/3 59% 11.7 GS

2014 Finals

Wade 15/4/3 50% 7.9 GS
Kawhi* 18/6/2 75% 15.8 GS
Parker 18/0/5 55% 11.6 GS
Duncan 15/10/2 61% 12.9 GS
Ginobili 14/3/4 65% 10.9 GS
Diaw 6/9/6 42% 8.5 GS
Mills 15/10/1 73% 8.2 GS
Green 9/2/1 68% 7.6 GS
Splitter 6/3/2 74% 6.4 GS

It is hard to say who the sidekick for this team was but it is moot since basically the entire Spurs' rotation outplayed Wade (this also shows the limits of GS and how much it weights TS %, look at Splitter, but that applies to Dan Majerle too). Anyway, this is a damning floor. If Pippen ever had a series like this during the finals run we would never hear the end of it. :oldlol:

This is why you didn't see them post any comparative data. :oldlol: Compare this to the claims made about Wade.

Also note the hypocrisy and double standard. Pippen is attacked for not beating players by enough (these stats don't factor defense, which is obvious); Wade praised for getting beat on a regular basis. The only way to square this is if you think Pippen was vastly better than Wade and more should be expected of him, or that Pippen's era was so weak that the inferior player was still that much better than trash comp. We aren't hearing either. We are hearing fairy tales about Wade based on one series while Pippen gets nit-picked.

The MJ crowd is not on the level. Maybe #5 will correct the problem.

[8Ball]

The 89' bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs, so they would beat the #6 Pistons in 07' and the #4 Magic in 09'.

Those Cavs had a big 4, and also the #2 defense, #1 SRS, and +800 preseason odds - that's a better team than lebron ever beat in the East - no team that lebron beat ranks so highly in all four of those categories

89 Cavs > 98 Pacers in SRS.

So Jordan's best competition in the East was discount Klay Thomson and a worst Paul George?

Jordan faced a bunch of bums in the East for the entire decade.

:roll:

[8Ball]

It's sad to see you reduced to this. 89' first round your shining example of a series.

What's your take on the Wade, Irving, Pippen discussion? The undercurrent seemed to be higher expectations for Pippen. Pippen should have outplayed players by more while Wade being outplayed by Rondo, Hibbert types isn't even deemed worth commenting on. I guess they expected it, given the inconsistency series to series, or in denial as a coping mechanism for #4. Or Irving getting praised for outplaying Paul Millsap. Give him a medal?

Just go research the SRS ranked teams in the East from 89 onwards.

89 Cavs was better than those chicken wing Eastern teams Jordan faced.

Making 3ball eat his own shit on this one.:roll:

[MadDog]

Wade posted a better Finals BPM and had a greater ORTG/DRTG combo than Westbrook :oldlol: I suspect that's the case in a lot of these series you noted. You can tout the raw numbers, but impact >>>. Besides, LeBron holds the ball too long for anyone to average big numbers. Unless they are good shooters, a big like AD or simply refuse to take a backseat (Wade in 2011 for example).

[Roundball_Rock]

Just go research the SRS ranked teams in the East from 89 onwards.

89 Cavs was better than those chicken wing Eastern teams Jordan faced.

Making 3ball eat his own shit on this one.:roll:

:lol

Hell, his own team was 2nd in SRS in the East without MJ in 95' (3.8 SRS through 65 games, on par with the Suns).

We have seen some MJ fans start to shift away from the sidekick vs. sidekick or third guy vs. third guy talk, probably because the facts don't support them. Their replacement theory is you have to look at the entire roster. That drives the same conclusion: who else won 55 games with a scrub replacing their best player or was that high in SRS?

People bring up 55 but that was with Pippen, Grant missing 22 games. When they played the Bulls had a 63 win pace.

But LeBron with teams going straight from the finals to the lottery had more help! :lol

[dankok8]

Why ignore other rounds especially competitive series? 2011 ECSF vs. Boston, Wade was the best player on the floor including better than Lebron. In the 2012 ECSF vs. Indiana, Wade has his knee drained after Game 3 with the Heat down 1-2 and proceeded to average 33/7/4 on 61.5% shooting in the last three games to close the Pacers out. In that series he was definitely the second best player after Lebron. And in the 2012 Finals, there's no way Westbrook was better. I watched that series and simply say that based on what I saw.

[MadDog]

Why ignore other rounds especially competitive series? 2011 ECSF vs. Boston, Wade was the best player on the floor including better than Lebron. In the 2012 ECSF vs. Indiana, Wade has his knee drained after Game 3 with the Heat down 1-2 and proceeded to average 33/7/4 on 61.5% shooting in the last three games to close the Pacers out. In that series he was definitely the second best player after Lebron. And in the 2012 Finals, there's no way Westbrook was better. I watched that series and simply say that based on what I saw.

He wasn't :oldlol: Its revisionist history from the LeBron contingent. There was an interview Wade did before that finals, admitting that he scarified individual numbers to appease LeBron. Basically he willingly played the "sidekick" role. The Westbrook/Wade comparison is "hidden" in the analytics. Wade was much better on defense and his offense carried more weight. Just look at their respective ORTG/DRTG numbers and then checkout the box plus minus (adjusted boxscore). Westbrook simply averaged more points because Wade played off the ball.

[Roundball_Rock]

There was an interview Wade did before that finals, admitting that he scarified individual numbers to appease LeBron. Basically he willingly played the "sidekick" role.

The irony. :lol

What is fascinating is MJ stans hype teams like the Pacers, Knicks, and Cavs. We saw the science experiment of the Bulls replacing MJ with a scrub while keeping the other 4 starters. What happened? The Bulls were better than the Pacers, Cavs (both 47 win teams) and equal to the Knicks.

If those teams were good, then the Bulls logically must have been stacked (top to bottom--forget 2nd/3rd options for a moment) to perform at that level with a G-Leaguer caliber player "replacing" peak MJ--who I hear is the GOAT (losing him and not having the chance to replace him must be a big deal then).

If you replace Ewing or Miller with a scrub what happens? MJ fans never answer because it places your agenda in conflict: you either have to say they were weak teams or that Ewing and/or Miller weren't great and the Knicks would do the same with Herb Williams.

With Price we know the answer: they become a 24 win caliber team over a 66 game sample size in 91'.

Meanwhile LeBron's teams never did anything remotely like this, nor did any of MJ's competition (not even the Lakers or Celtics).

The Heat went 9-9 without LeBron from 2011-2014. When he left and they signed a 2x all-star to replace him, they went from 54 wins and the finals to 37 wins and the lottery (Bosh had health issues but they did actually better after that because of Dragic, Whiteside).

The Cavs went 4-23 without him when he missed time in his second stint. That is a laughable 12 win pace. When he missed 8 consecutive games in 15', Irving and Love were not "unleashed." The Cavs had by far the worst offense in the NBA (91 PPG when the worst team was 95 PPG and the second worst 99 PPG) and went 1-7.

Yet the guy with 55-27 (probably 60+ if they were healthy like they were in previous years) had "less help" than 37-45, 4-23, etc. :roll:

[3ball]

89 Cavs > 98 Pacers in SRS.

So Jordan's best competition in the East was discount Klay Thomson and a worst Paul George?

Jordan faced a bunch of bums in the East for the entire decade.

:roll:

89' Cavs had the #1 SRS, #2 defense, +800 preseason odds, and 3 all-stars

^^^ no team that lebron beat ranked as highly in all 4 categories, or even 2 of them

This is better evidence than anything you've provided that the 89' Cavs > any team lebron beat in the East..

oh wait, you provided no evidence or counter and prefer to giggle like a little girl

Also, lebron never beat a top 5 SRS in the East, let alone #1, so take this L.. facts gonna facts

[Roundball_Rock]

The Cavs were "great" because they had Price, Daughtery, and Nance but the Bulls were "less help" or "no help" for battling the Knicks & Hawks for the #1 seed with Pete Myers "replacing" MJ--which would be considered an all-time great season for the Cavs' franchise pre-LeBron. :lol Talk about variability, look at the Cavs' win totals during this era: 57, 42, 33, 57, 54, and 47 (average of 48). You can't make this level of hypocrisy up.

The excuses will be injuries. Price missed 66 games in 91', Daughtery missed half the season in 90' (Price, Daughtery, Nance all played in the playoffs--got bounced in the 1st round). In 94' Daughtery missed about 30 games and Nance most of the season.

Noticing a trend, folks? Price, Daughtery, Nance, Wade, Irving, Love, Bosh. Pretty much every player that comes up in this thread missed considerable time . The Bulls were extremely lucky with injuries and when they had rare injuries/random retirement, their roster was loaded enough to overcome it (except when they were down both MJ and Pippen for part of 94').

[3ball]

The Cavs were "great" because they had Price, Daughtery, and Nance but the Bulls were "less help" or "no help" for battling the Knicks & Hawks for the #1 seed with Pete Myers "replacing" MJ--which would be considered an all-time great season for the Cavs' franchise pre-LeBron. :lol Talk about variability, look at the Cavs' win totals during this era: 57, 42, 33, 57, 54, and 47 (average of 48). You can't make this level of hypocrisy up.

The excuses will be injuries. Price missed 66 games in 91', Daughtery missed half the season in 90' (Price, Daughtery, Nance all played in the playoffs--got bounced in the 1st round). In 94' Daughtery missed about 30 games and Nance most of the season.

Noticing a trend, folks? Price, Daughtery, Nance, Wade, Irving, Love, Bosh. Pretty much every player that comes up in this thread missed considerable time . The Bulls were extremely lucky with injuries and when they had rare injuries/random retirement, their roster was loaded enough to overcome it (except when they were down both MJ and Pippen for part of 94').

Cavs weren't injured in 89' when MJ beat them with zero help

They only started getting hurt after that - the injuries and further losses to Jordan stopped them from hof and rings

Ultimately, the 89' Cavs had the #1 SRS, #2 defense, +800 preseason odds, and 3 all-stars

^^^ no team that lebron beat in the East ranked as highly in all 4 categories, or even 2 of them

This is better evidence than anything you've provided that the 89' Cavs > any team lebron beat in the East..

Heck, lebron never beat a top 5 SRS in the East, let alone #1 lol

[Roundball_Rock]

The same team went 42-40 and got bounced in the first round the next year to a team with Hersey Hawkins as their second best player :oldlol: (to be fair, Hawkins was a solid sidekick for that era, you know, the type most playoff teams had...).

[3ball]

The same team went 42-40 and got bounced in the first round the next year to a team with Hersey Hawkins as their second best player :oldlol: (to be fair, Hawkins was a solid sidekick for that era, you know, the type most playoff teams had...).

Yes MJ and injuries ended the Cavs, just like the Spurs and Warriors ended Lebron's Heat and Cavs

It happens

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes MJ ended the Cavs

Damn, so you are saying the East was so weak that an "ended" team remained one of the top teams through 1994 (even with injuries to Daughtery and Nance they tied the "mighty" Pacers in the standings)? Excluding the Bulls, only the Knicks were better than the Cavs in the East in the first half of the 90's.

[3ball]

Damn, so you are saying the East was so weak that an "ended" team remained one of the top teams through 1994 (even with injuries to Daughtery and Nance they tied the "mighty" Pacers in the standings)? Excluding the Bulls, only the Knicks were better than the Cavs in the East in the first half of the 90's.

* How many top 5 SRS teams did lebron beat in the East? (now compare to Jordan)

* How many 50 and 60-win teams did lebron beat in the East (now compare to Jordan)

* How many did he beat with 2 or 3 all-stars (now compare to Jordan)

* How many did he beat that had preseason odds under 1000? (now compare to Jordan)


So Jordan's conference was monumentally tougher...

btw, beating 4 60-win Finals teams > beating 1 suspended 73-win team.. lebron has 1 Finals win over a 60+ win team

[tpols]

He wasn't :oldlol: Its revisionist history from the LeBron contingent. There was an interview Wade did before that finals, admitting that he scarified individual numbers to appease LeBron.

For the record Wade had a higher VORP than LeBron for the entirety of the 2011 playoffs... not just Finals, all 4 rounds together. It's really not out of the realm of possibilities that Lebron threw that Mavs series because he was afraid Wade was going to get the FMVP, which he obviously would have had they won, and he would be seen as a "pippen". That would have been disastrous for his GOAT aspirations.

[Roundball_Rock]

* How many did he beat with 2 or 3 all-stars (now compare to Jordan)


He beat two East teams with 4 all-stars. MJ never played a team, East or West, with 4 all-stars.

All-NBA is more useful. All-NBA means you were top 15ish at minimum. There are at minimum 24 all-stars and usually a couple more via injuries. All-NBA is a better indicator of high end talent--and HOF even better still.

[MadDog]

For the record Wade had a higher VORP than LeBron for the entirety of the 2011 playoffs... not just Finals, all 4 rounds together. It's really not out of the realm of possibilities that Lebron threw that Mavs series because he was afraid Wade was going to get the FMVP, which he obviously would have had they won, and he would be seen as a "pippen". That would have been disastrous for his GOAT aspirations.

Oh, Wade was better than LeBron in 2011. The discussion was around 2012 though. And the argument LeBron fans like "Roundball_Rock" use would paint Westbrook>Wade in the finals. Obviously analytics tell us a different story. Although if you actually watched that series, you wouldn't need numbers to tell you that. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

The discussion was around 2012 though. And the argument LeBron fans like "Roundball_Rock" use would paint Westbrook>Wade in the finals. Obviously analytics tell us a different story. Although if you actually watched that series, you wouldn't need numbers to tell you that. :oldlol:

I used the very same metrics Jordan fans used to say Pippen didn't outplay the comp by enough.

The OP posted a ranking from ESPN of best players--in defense of 12' Wade--which had Wade 7th and Westbrook 8th. So the OP's own proferred measure of the two players had them at parity for the year. As to the series, these are the same people who say the FMVP front-runner for most of the finals had a bad series in 98' (while defending Stockton) so I can't take them seriously.

These are MJ fans' own proferred metrics in this very thread. :confusedshrug: :lol

Analytics is a separate conversation. We can check that but we have seen this movie before: analytics usually don't suit what MJ stans want to believe so they discard them since Pippen shines in analytics (despite there not being a real way to capture defensive impact, so his actual impact was even greater).

In RAPM, Westbrook was 30th for the season and Wade 37th in 12'. In the playoffs Wade was 4th and Westbrook 9th. In all-NBA Westbrook was 2nd team, Wade 3rd, but Wade (as became a habit of his) missed a lot of games. In MVP Wade was 10th and Westbrook 12th (apples to apples since both were sidekicks). Dan's own ESPN rankings had them 7-8.

Bottom line: no matter how you slice it, there was one other "sidekick" on Wade's level on another contender no matter what metric you use for 12' (and we know Wade fell off considerably in 13' and then even more in 14'). That doesn't even get to series like Rondo going 20/7/11 during a time when he was an elite defender and considered a future HOFer.

[tpols]

Oh, Wade was better than LeBron in 2011. The discussion was around 2012 though. And the argument LeBron fans like "Roundball_Rock" use would paint Westbrook>Wade in the finals. Obviously analytics tell us a different story. Although if you actually watched that series, you wouldn't need numbers to tell you that. :oldlol:

That's par for the course with rockhead... Westbrook being better than Wade lmao. Their efficiencies are actually exactly equal in the 2012 Finals, but Westbrook posted a 117 DRTG to Wade's 109 DRTG. Not only does Westbrook make terrible decisions, he was one of the worst defenders on the team. While Wade was a great defender and obviously is a smart player. Westbrook was literally benched in the 2012 Finals.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I3izzQDG3o

He was -8 for the series.

[MadDog]

I used the very same metrics Jordan fans used to say Pippen didn't outplay the comp by enough.

The OP posted a ranking from ESPN of best players--in defense of 12' Wade--which had Wade 7th and Westbrook 8th. So the OP's own proferred measure of the two players had them at parity for the year. As to the series, these are the same people who say the FMVP front-runner for most of the finals had a bad series in 98' (while defending Stockton) so I can't take them seriously.

These are MJ fans' own proferred metrics in this very thread.

Your conclusion is that Westbrook was "equal" to Wade in 2012. The problem is that nobody who watched them play in those finals believes that. Wade was a better defender and had greater impact numbers across the board. Not sure what there is to gain by repeating Jordan fans "own preferred metrics". They're bad arguments, right? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486602-Magic-predicts-the-89-Cavs-are-the-quot-team-of-the-90-s-quot-(for-reference-purposes)

[MadDog]

That's par for the course with rockhead... Westbrook being better than Wade lmao. Their efficiencies are actually exactly equal in the 2012 Finals, but Westbrook posted a 117 DRTG to Wade's 109 DRTG. Not only does Westbrook make terrible decisions, he was one of the worst defenders on the team. While Wade was a great defender and obviously is a smart player. Westbrook was literally benched in the 2012 Finals.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I3izzQDG3o

He was -8 for the series.

Exactly. And in the game Westbrook had a triple-double, Magic came out saying it was the WORST he'd ever seen from a PG. Yet another reason gaudy stats don't equal impact. Wade's prime bests Westbrook's both with impact and results.

[Roundball_Rock]

Your conclusion is that Westbrook was "equal" to Wade in 2012. The problem is that nobody who watched them play in those finals believes that.

Is that how it works? So Roy Hibbert>Wade in 13' because he had a better ECF?

Season long, we have them neck and neck no matter how you slice it. The ESPN thing literally was a ranking at the time of the best players. Not even a spot between them.


Yet another reason gaudy stats don't equal impact. Wade's prime bests Westbrook's both with impact and results.

Westbrook won a MVP, Wade didn't. Wade>Westbrook all-time but you guys are acting like Westbrook was a Kyrie Irving or Klay Thompson level player who just put up big numbers with no impact. :lol

Interesting to hear about impact, though. How do Kyrie's teams do without him? Ready to move those goal posts? :oldlol:

[tpols]

Exactly. And in the game Westbrook had a triple-double, Magic came out saying it was the WORST he'd ever seen from a PG. Yet another reason gaudy stats don't equal impact. Wade's prime bests Westbrook's both with impact and results.

Magic understands that a point guard's main job is to make other players BETTER. It's not about accumulating stats yourself, it's about making teammates better. Knowing their strengths and tendencies and feeding them accordingly. Westbrook doesn't do that lol... Individually he's wildly inefficient, and to top it off he was so autistic he didn't know how to feed Kevin ****ing Durant. Probably one of the best and most versatile play finishers and scorers of all time. That's like a QB playing with jerry rice or terrell owens and not being able to get them the rock. He's a negative player.

[MadDog]

Is that how it works? So Roy Hibbert>Wade in 13' because he had a better ECF?

Westbrook won a MVP, Wade didn't. Wade>Westbrook all-time but you guys are acting like Westbrook was a Kyrie Irving or Klay Thompson level player who just put up big numbers with no impact.

In the playoffs, Wade had a better ORTG, DRTG, WS, BPM, VORP and averaged more PPG on better shooting. The point I was making is that the finals backed Wade > Westbrook. The same Westbrook who was criticized for being selfish, and the same Wade admired for being selfless. The numbers do a good job reflecting that.

Westbrook winning MVP is relevant how? He won an MVP when Wade was far past his prime. :oldlol: In their primes, though, Wade was on equal footing with Kobe and LeBron so what are you saying? We all saw both of these guys play (well maybe you didn’t), so you don't need exaggerations to make your point.


Magic understands that a point guard's main job is to make other players BETTER. It's not about accumulating stats yourself, it's about making teammates better. Knowing their strengths and tendencies and feeding them accordingly. Westbrook doesn't do that lol... Individually he's wildly inefficient, and to top it off he was so autistic he didn't know how to feed Kevin ****ing Durant. Probably one of the best and most versatile play finishers and scorers of all time. That's like a QB playing with jerry rice or terrell owens and not being able to get them the rock. He's a negative player.

We're now hearing Westbrook was on par with PRIME Dwyane Wade. Why? Because Westbrook won an MVP when Wade was on his way out, looking forward to retirement :oldlol: The revisionism from LeBron fans is comical. I like your qb analogy by the way. Really is spot on when you think about the help Westbrook's had now. .

[dankok8]

The gap between prime Wade (2006-2011) and any version of Westbrook is HUGE! In 2012, Wade was better than Westbrook at the time and not far off from prime Westbrook either. Having the green light to shoot 25 times a game and take rebounds from your own teammates while being a terrible decision maker with the ball as a PG no less doesn't make you a better player. Good chance that if KD had Wade from 2011-2014 he wins at least one title.

People comparing Westbrook to Wade just makes me cringe. I don't even care about this argument. Just stop comparing Westbrook to Wade.

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol as if 2012 Wade was the same as 2006-2011 Wade. Dan's own citation had them 7th and 8th best in 2012. :lol


In the playoffs, Wade had a better ORTG, DRTG, WS, BPM, VORP and averaged more PPG on better shooting

Your own metrics.

Hibbert vs. Miami: 22/10/1 61% TS 123 ORTG 112 DRTG 16.9 GS
Wade vs. Indiana: 15/5/4 50% TS 103 ORTG 107 DRTG 11.7 GS

Since you fools don't understand ORTG/DRTG and think they tell us anything, you must think this was horrendous. 107 DRTG and a 103 ORTG.

Hibbert ECF BPM: 3.9
Wade's ECF BPM: 2.5

So Hibbert>Wade in 13', right? Same series. Year long doesn't matter. Just the 5-7 game sample.

[MadDog]

People comparing Westbrook to Wade just makes me cringe. I don't even care about this argument. Just stop comparing Westbrook to Wade.

Yup.


Your own metrics.

Hibbert vs. Miami: 22/10/1 61% TS 123 ORTG 112 DRTG 16.9 GS
Wade vs. Indiana: 15/5/4 50% TS 103 ORTG 107 DRTG 11.7 GS

Since you fools don't understand ORTG/DRTG and think they tell us anything, you must think this was horrendous. 107 DRTG and a 103 ORTG.

Hibbert ECF BPM: 3.9
Wade's ECF BPM: 2.5

So Hibbert>Wade in 13', right? Same series. Year long doesn't matter. Just the 5-7 game sample.

Talks about “moving goalposts” then says this :oldlol: First Westbrook and now Roy freaking Hibbert? LeBron fans are a desperate group. To answer your question? Sure for that ONE series Hibbert outplayed Wade. You also left out like 3 other stats I used. Cant really be "my own argument" when you do that :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Why do yall ride the carousal with this fool?

He says one stupid thing... you disprove it... he moves onto another comparison. Ad infinitum.

[dankok8]

That series with Hibbert isn't even 2012. I'm not sure if he's deliberately ignoring what I am posting or just isn't reading it at all.

[HoopsNY]

That series with Hibbert isn't even 2012. I'm not sure if he's deliberately ignoring what I am posting or just isn't reading it at all.

That's what Roundball does, he uses red herrings and non-sequiturs to prove his point. Notice his fanboys on this forum are all LeBron stans who 90% of the time post one line catchy phrases coupled with a meme. These are the people who admire his arguments.

Anyone who saw the 2012 finals knows how well Wade played and that the numbers don't indicate it. At best, you would argue that they're about even, even though we know the nature of stat padding Westbrook.

But what gets me is that you're a criminal for saying that MJ and LeBron both had help in the finals, but it appears that LeBron had more help in his victories. I'm not sure why this is bad, especially knowing how 1996 and 1998 went for Pippen.

If the argument is, "well MJ wouldn't have done as well in terms of titles without as much help" then how much lesser help are we talking? None of the series even went to 7 games, yet the Bulls still won all of them. The series went badly for Pippen in '96 and '98, yet the Bulls still won. If Pippen is slacking off in 1991 or 1992, then MJ rises to the occasion. That's the type of players he was and what his athleticism, agility, and scoring abilities allowed for him to do.

You're bad for creating your own criteria, just as he does, and when you do so, you're the idiot. Not him. So he can hinge the entire argument on opposing sidekicks, then when you employ the entire competition, it doesn't matter. Go figure.

[HoopsNY]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486602-Magic-predicts-the-89-Cavs-are-the-quot-team-of-the-90-s-quot-(for-reference-purposes)

It's what happens when people employ revisionist history.

It's why they want to use HOF arguments now, but at the time, those players and teams were seen as being some of the best in the league.

It's the idiocy that employs new fangled arguments against MJ, meanwhile during his career and thereafter, no one said these things. But because people have an agenda, they want to act like KJ, Kemp, or the Cavs big 4 weren't elite teams/players at the time of playing.

Revisionism is a hell of a thing.

[Mauzah]

A lot of people tend to laugh off those 90's team as if they were a joke, if player X had these stats compared to player Y today blah blah but those stats fail to measure stuff like team chemistry, player IQ, pressure situations, resiliency or just flat out toughness.

An assist and still an assist but how that ball moves through an offense IS really big deal and yes players and teams certainly had their limitations but then so did every player of that era. It's not like the Bulls showed up in some time-machine to whoop everybody's ass. They are of that era too.

Edit: And thanks for sharing the article