Lakers had a -2.32 SRS without Phil Jackson in 05, + 2.53 SRS with Phil Jackson in 06

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lakers had a -2.32 SRS without Phil Jackson in 2005 and +2.53 SRS with Phil Jackson in 2006.

That's a 4.85 difference in SRS and basically had the same roster. Kobe was having a meltdown in 2005 without Papa Phil. Missed his yoga sessions and smoking pot I guess?

How spoiled were Jordan/Kobe to be coached by Phil? Zero finals appearances without him. Phil Jackson even makes Greg Pop look like an idiot and was 18-8 in playoffs against him.

Imagine Kawhi coached by Phil Jackson, I would feel sorry for the rest of league.

[3ball]

How many rings for Phil without MJ or his clone?

The triangle put role players in optimal spots, but still needs a bailout on 20% of possessions or more..

that's why no one ever heard of the offense until goat bailout artists proved that be the key that unlocked it's goatness.. indeed, Phil has zero rings without the goat bailout artist (MJ or his clone, aka mamba)

[SouBeachTalents]

How many rings for Phil without MJ or his clone?

The triangle put role players in optimal spots, but still needs a bailout on 20% of possessions or more..

that's why no one ever heard of the offense until goat bailout artists proved that be the key that unlocked it's goatness.. indeed, Phil has zero rings without the goat bailout artist (MJ or his clone, aka mamba)
How many rings for MJ or his clone without Phil?

[3ball]

How many rings for MJ or his clone without Phil?

Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 91', and MJ was the goat candidate.. so MJ made phil

Phil just happened to have an offense that was great IF it had a goat bailout artist

Enter Jordan (goat bailout artist)... Then Kobe (2nd goat bailout artist).. and you have 11 rings... Now enter Carmelo (37th goat bailout artist) and zero rings

[sdot_thadon]

How many rings for MJ or his clone without Phil?

Sadly....zero, zilch, nada, null, nil, 0, etc.

[Shooter]

How many rings for MJ or his clone without Phil?

https://i.postimg.cc/0Q6YQT1B/tenor.gif

[HBK_Kliq_2]

How many rings for Phil without MJ or his clone?

The triangle put role players in optimal spots, but still needs a bailout on 20% of possessions or more..

that's why no one ever heard of the offense until goat bailout artists proved that be the key that unlocked it's goatness.. indeed, Phil has zero rings without the goat bailout artist (MJ or his clone, aka mamba)

Kobe wasn't doing much in 2000. 15PPG in finals hahahah you would kill Pippen for that.

[3ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/0Q6YQT1B/tenor.gif
Lol yeah right I destroyed the thread

They're using my language to respond, aka 'clone'

I hit them with it first, so you should be asking them to throw in the towel

And what's more likely - that MJ needed Phil and the triangle to win, or they needed him (goat bailout artist) to win - before you answer, consider that MJ was the goat candidate first, while Phil/triangle were 1st timer nobodies

[3ball]

Kobe wasn't doing much in 2000. 15PPG in finals hahahah you would kill Pippen for that.

If he doesn't save the Lakers in that OT, the series goes 7

Finals usually come down to a few possessions, unless one side is has major holes and is getting exploited, or faces an insurmountable talent deficit (bigger than the 11' Mavs vs 11' Heat)

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe wasn't doing much in 2000. 15PPG in finals hahahah you would kill Pippen for that.
I can't even imagine the material 3ball would have if LeBron had Kobe's career/resume :lol He kills him about AD despite finishing 2nd in MVP voting and winning FMVP unanimously, I can't even fathom the shit he'd come up with about Shaq, his far inferior stats, significantly fewer awards etc.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Rick Adelman is another one. Turning Kevin love into Charles Barkley, multiple finals without a top 30 GOAT, took Kobe/gasol Lakers to 7 and his main scorer was Aaron brooks.

Its these damn systems they have. Princeton and triangle.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If he doesn't save the Lakers in that OT, the series goes 7

Finals usually come down to a few possessions, unless one side is has major holes and is getting exploited, or faces an insurmountable talent deficit (bigger than the 11' Mavs vs 11' Heat)

They still won a finals series despite Kobe averaging 15PPG. Also won a finals game when Kobe didn't even play. Did Jordan ever win a finals game when Pippen didn't play?

And how come Jordan didn't want to play with a random coach in 1999? He could of easily won a lockout year ring with Kukoc as his sidekick according to you. Now do you see? Even Jordan thinks you're full of shit.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I can't even imagine the material 3ball would have if LeBron had Kobe's career/resume :lol He kills him about AD despite finishing 2nd in MVP voting and winning FMVP unanimously, I can't even fathom the shit he'd come up with about Shaq, his far inferior stats, significantly fewer awards etc.

Exactly. Phil is obviously a godlike coach, that's why Jordan retired despite being the best player in the NBA. He knew Phil was leaving. Jordan wasn't getting underpaid like Pippen or anything like that either. He simply found out Phil wasn't coming back and ran away.

[3ball]

They still won a finals series despite Kobe averaging 15PPG. Also won a finals game when Kobe didn't even play. Did Jordan ever win a finals game when Pippen didn't play?

And how come Jordan didn't want to play with a random coach in 1999? He could of easily won a lockout year ring with Kukoc as his sidekick according to you. Now do you see? Even Jordan thinks you're full of shit.

Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals and 15 on 41% in 98' Finals.. he also had 16 on 40% in 4 ECF and the 7-game war in 92' ECSF

And MJ retired because he didn't want to build another lottery team and carry them. Houston found out how impossible it is to win with pippen - they had pip at THIRD option (more stacked than the bulls ever were) but got destroyed in 1st round

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals and 15 on 41% in 98' Finals.. he also had 16 on 40% in 4 ECF and the 7-game war in 92' ECSF

And MJ retired because he didn't want to build another lottery team and carry them. Houston found out how impossible it is to win with pippen - they had pip at THIRD option (more stacked than the bulls ever were) but got destroyed in 1st round

Kobe had a 9.7 GmSc in the 2000 finals and he missed an entire game. That's not exactly a co superstar.

I've heard you praise Kukoc over Pippen on plenty occasions. Now that Pippen is gone in 1999 and Kukoc is the 2nd star, you want to say its rebuilding?? What gives.

A lockout season and your toughest competition would of been the 8th seed Knicks. Even a finals performance and losing to spurs could of helped Jordan's legacy without Pippen. Instead, he choose to wait a few years to join the rebuilding wizards and bully Kwame Brown around? Lol he obviously had zero faith in winning with Kukoc as his co star, without Pippen/Phil.

[3ball]

Kobe had a 9.7 GmSc in the 2000 finals and he missed an entire game. That's not exactly a co superstar.

I've heard you praise Kukoc over Pippen on plenty occasions. Now that Pippen is gone in 1999 and Kukoc is the 2nd star, you want to say its rebuilding?? What gives.



Phil left, so MJ would have to build another nothing offense and give it a goat rep.. that takes time







Instead, he choose to wait a few years to join the rebuilding wizards and bully Kwame Brown around? Lol he obviously had zero faith in winning with Kukoc as his co star, without Pippen/Phil.


After starting the 02' season with a 2-9 record, MJ had the lottery Wizards at the 4 seed (similar to 19' lebron with the Lakers before he got hurt), and he was 1 of 3 guys averaging 25/5/5 (MJ/Kobe/Tmac) before he got hurt around game 50 and limped the last 10 games.

MJ was outstanding as a wizard before he got hurt.. many 40-pt games and even 50.. 18-win improvement

[Shooter]

Lol yeah right I destroyed the thread

They're using my language to respond, aka 'clone'

I hit them with it first, so you should be asking them to throw in the towel

And what's more likely - that MJ needed Phil and the triangle to win, or they needed him (goat bailout artist) to win - before you answer, consider that MJ was the goat candidate first, while Phil/triangle were 1st timer nobodies

You're a moron. You're asking what did Phil Jackson without the players he coached for his entire career? :lol Truly a complete melting idiot

I'll wrap it up for you sweetie

Phil won without MJ. He didn't need MJ, MJ needed Papa Phil.

Phil took an MJ lite version, a top 12 player at best and still won with him. Think about that.

Does MJ even have the career he does without Papa Phil? Don't think so. We all know it. Even you do.

MJ needed everything to be perfect in order to make only 6 Finals. Terrible. No Pip. No Chip. No Papa Phil, No Chip.

[Roundball_Rock]

How many rings for MJ or his clone without Phil?

https://media.giphy.com/media/W0L651HmSjFMniNdEn/giphy.gif

[Axe]

Phil left, so MJ would have to build another nothing offense and give it a goat rep.. that takes time





After starting the 02' season with a 2-9 record, MJ had the lottery Wizards at the 4 seed (similar to 19' lebron with the Lakers before he got hurt), and he was 1 of 3 guys averaging 25/5/5 (MJ/Kobe/Tmac) before he got hurt around game 50 and limped the last 10 games.

MJ was outstanding as a wizard before he got hurt.. many 40-pt games and even 50.. 18-win improvement
18-win improvement? That's it?

[3ball]

Phil didn't need MJ, MJ needed Papa Phil.


.

Phil needed MJ or his clone.

You think it's coincidence that Phil needed MJ.... And then out of 7 billion people, his clone too?

Lol not intuitive

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Phil left, so MJ would have to build another nothing offense and give it a goat rep.. that takes time





After starting the 02' season with a 2-9 record, MJ had the lottery Wizards at the 4 seed (similar to 19' lebron with the Lakers before he got hurt), and he was 1 of 3 guys averaging 25/5/5 (MJ/Kobe/Tmac) before he got hurt around game 50 and limped the last 10 games.

MJ was outstanding as a wizard before he got hurt.. many 40-pt games and even 50.. 18-win improvement

That takes time? Phil won his first year as head coach. Ok so Jordan was still a good player by 2002? That means he was still elite in 1999! You retired because you were scared of meeting expectations without Phil/Pippen.

Took on a player/GM role with a team that had zero expectations instead. I still don't get why Jordan retired in 1999? You had Kukoc a better 2nd option scorer then Pippen according to you. Phil is also worthless according to you and can be replaced by a random coach. So why did Jordan leave? Makes no sense. Should easily be able to make finals with Kukoc by your standards. Jordan didn't have any confidence to win in 1999 without Phil/Pippen.

[LonelyOwl]

Phil needed MJ or his clone.

You think it's coincidence that Phil needed MJ.... And then out of 7 billion people, his clone too?

Lol not intuitive
Phil without MJ = 5 rings

MJ without Phil = 1 playoff win

Who needed who again :lol

[3ball]

Phil without MJ = 5 rings

MJ without Phil = 1 playoff win

Who needed who again :lol

Phil has zero rings without the MJ lineage

[Honor Boost]

You're a moron. You're asking what did Phil Jackson without the players he coached for his entire career? :lol Truly a complete melting idiot

I'll wrap it up for you sweetie

Phil won without MJ. He didn't need MJ, MJ needed Papa Phil.

Phil took an MJ lite version, a top 12 player at best and still won with him. Think about that.

Does MJ even have the career he does without Papa Phil? Don't think so. We all know it. Even you do.

MJ needed everything to be perfect in order to make only 6 Finals. Terrible. No Pip. No Chip. No Papa Phil, No Chip.

I still think MJ is GOAT but this is some telling information when you unpack all the connections. Phil Jackson was legendary with or without Jordan, Jordan not so much. I still have it

Jordan 1a
LeBron 1b

but the gap is tightening close. If LeBron passes Kareem and gets that 40,000 points then there will be no more gap.

[3ball]

I still think MJ is GOAT but this is some telling information when you unpack all the connections. Phil Jackson was legendary with or without Jordan, Jordan not so much. I still have it

Jordan 1a
LeBron 1b

but the gap is tightening close. If LeBron passes Kareem and gets that 40,000 points then there will be no more gap.

Dumbest post ever

No wonder we rank so low worldwide in education

[Honor Boost]

Phil without MJ = 5 rings

MJ without Phil = 1 playoff win

Who needed who again :lol

Ouch. MJ fans need to keep their heads down on this subject. There is no shame in saying you needed a top 3 all time NBA coach to win rings. Most players in the top 7 have had amazing coaches so how is that a knock on Jordan? Guys like Duncan, Magic, MJ, Kareem. Coaches help.

[Honor Boost]

Dumbest post ever

No wonder we rank so low worldwide in education

Look pal Lebron is obviously close and the fact that you are ignoring that really is boosting LeBron it is not helping your cause. Stop being an old salty guy that is holding onto the past and embrace the new players. There is nothing wrong with LeBron being 1b to Jordan, most have him #1 anyway so get your head straight because 2021 is coming and LeBron could pass our idol .

[3ball]

Ouch. MJ fans need to keep their heads down on this subject. There is no shame in saying you needed a top 3 all time NBA coach to win rings. Most players in the top 7 have had amazing coaches so how is that a knock on Jordan? Guys like Duncan, Magic, MJ, Kareem. Coaches help.

Triangle without MJ lineage (MJ or his clone) = 0 rings in 55 years

Triangle with MJ lineage = 11 rings in 17 years


^^^ that's better evidence than what you've presented with Lucky Phil

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Triangle without MJ lineage (MJ or his clone) = 0 rings in 55 years

Triangle with MJ lineage = 11 rings in 17 years


^^^ that's better evidence than what you've presented with Lucky Phil

How come Kobe gets ring credit for a 9 GmSc finals in 2000 but you snub Pippen for being better in 6 different titles.

Kobe's win share 48 was also terrible in 2002.

[Roundball_Rock]

That means he was still elite in 1999! You retired because you were scared of meeting expectations without Phil/Pippen.

Jordan was the reigning MVP and quit because Pippen and the GOAT coach wouldn't be there (I am not aware of any other reigning MVP in any sport who retired). The narrative is he retired to get back at Krause but that is BS. Jordan was a free agent and could have kept playing for any of the other 28 teams.

I suspect this will become a bigger argument against MJ, especially since LeBron now has chips with 3 coaches. How many chips would LeBron have if he had the GOAT coach? Of the top 10 all-time, LeBron by far has had the worst coaching.


Phil without MJ = 5 rings

MJ without Phil = 1 playoff win

Who needed who again

Yeah, it is a dumb argument to say Jackson needed MJ. If you take away all of his seasons with MJ, Jackson still has 5 chips and 7 finals. What did MJ do without PJ?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Jordan was the reigning MVP and quit because Pippen and the GOAT coach wouldn't be there (I am not aware of any other reigning MVP in any sport who retired). The narrative is he retired to get back at Krause but that is BS. Jordan was a free agent and could have kept playing for any of the other 28 teams.

I suspect this will become a bigger argument against MJ, especially since LeBron now has chips with 3 coaches. How many chips would LeBron have if he had the GOAT coach? Of the top 10 all-time, LeBron by far has had the worst coaching.



Yeah, it is a dumb argument to say Jackson needed MJ. If you take away all of his seasons with MJ, Jackson still has 5 chips and 7 finals. What did MJ do without PJ?

Yeah and I like Jordan/Pippen but to say 6 rings and 6-0 is a carry job is the definition of insanity.

LeBron has had Spo who was really good, mike brown sucks, Tye Lue time will tell.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah and I like Jordan/Pippen but to say 6 rings and 6-0 is a carry job is the definition of insanity.

LeBron has had Spo who was really good, mike brown sucks, Tye Lue time will tell.

Yeah, the non-stop narrative that MJ was in this terrible team context is tiresome when we know he had a stacked team relative to the era, he had the GOAT coach, he had a HOF assistant coach who invented the perfect offense for a player with MJ's "tendencies", plus a HOF GM.

Lue is perceived as a bad coach who was along for the LeBron ride like Brown, Blatt but let's see what he does with the Clippers. If he can have success there he can turn that perception around.

[999Guy]

Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 91', and MJ was the goat candidate.. so MJ made phil

Phil just happened to have an offense that was great IF it had a goat bailout artist

Enter Jordan (goat bailout artist)... Then Kobe (2nd goat bailout artist).. and you have 11 rings... Now enter Carmelo (37th goat bailout artist) and zero rings

Jordan was a stat padding loser like Wilt or Westbrook without Phil.



OP can add Shaq to this as well. Getting his ass swept every year and steamrolled on defense in the playoffs pre-Phil.

[3ball]

Yeah, the non-stop narrative that MJ was in this terrible team context is tiresome when we know he had a stacked team relative to the era, he had the GOAT coach, he had a HOF assistant coach who invented the perfect offense for a player with MJ's "tendencies", plus a HOF GM.

Lue is perceived as a bad coach who was along for the LeBron ride like Brown, Blatt but let's see what he does with the Clippers. If he can have success there he can turn that perception around.

Phil wasn't HOF in 1991 - he was a 1st time, nobody coach and Pippen wasn't an all-star - the preseason odds prove that no one thought the Bulls had the best roster, or anywhere near, so stop lying

Otoh, Jordan wasn't a nobody in 1991 like Phil.. Jordan was a goat candidate that had enough class to accept coaching and the triangle - he could've easily refused but ultimately his game had the capacity to play within the strict parameters, so he went with it.

In addition to the goat candidate MJ raising 1st-timers Phil and Pippen, the 70-year history of the triangle tells the story.. it gets role players in optimal spots, but needs a sheer bailout on many possessions, and those bailouts must occur within the tight spots of the triangle... accordingly, the offense was nothing for 50 years until the goat bailout artists came along that could score quickly within the triangle (MJ/Kobe) - literally zero rings in 70 years without MJ/Kobe (the goat bailout artists the offense needs to rise out of perennial obscurity)

^^^ the 70-year history of the triangle (but zero rings without MJ/Kobe), is a bigger sample than your "no rings without Phil" sample (15 years), in addition to Phil/Pippen being 1st timers raised by goat candidate MJ

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaq won a chip without Jackson, albeit with another top 5 all-time coach. He also made a NBA finals with Brian Hill so that's something. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Shaq won a chip without Jackson, albeit with another top 5 all-time coach. He also made a NBA finals with Brian Hill so that's something. :oldlol:

1990 MJ = goat candidate

raised

1990 Phil and Pippen = 1st timers

[Axe]

Jordan was a stat padding loser like Wilt or Westbrook without Phil.



OP can add Shaq to this as well. Getting his ass swept every year and steamrolled on defense in the playoffs pre-Phil.
And lebron is like jerry west with at least 5 finals losses but with more mvps, fmvps, chips and finals trips.