MJ never played with anyone with a PER higher than 20..

[nineiron]

Pippen is highest with a career PER of 18.

meanwhile, LeFraud has played with MULTIPLE players that have PER's over 20.

Wade - 23.5
Bosh - 20.6
Kyrie - 22.2
Love - 21.6
AD - 27.4

don't ever compare LeTravel to the great MJ. it's an insult.

[Roundball_Rock]

If MJ had real help his team would have won 75, not 55, without him. Da GOAT, winning with that poor help! :bowdown:

[1987_Lakers]

Another disingenuous thread, Pippen had a 20+ PER in 5 of the 6 seasons the Bulls won a title and PER does a poor job analyzing overall defensive play and Pippen is probably the greatest defensive SF in history.

[Trollsmasher]

PER highly rates shot chucking. How were's MJ teammates supposed to have a high PER when he was the one chucking 27 shots per game?

[nineiron]

Another disingenuous thread, Pippen had a 20+ PER in 5 of the 6 seasons the Bulls won a title and PER does a poor job analyzing overall defensive play and Pippen is probably the greatest defensive SF in history.


PER highly rates shot chucking. How were's MJ teammates supposed to have a high PER when he was the one chucking 27 shots per game?


PER measures a player's impact on the game.

LMFAO @ bron stans that wanna talk about defense

and LMFAO @ "Pippen is probably the greatest defensive SF in history"... how many DPOYs does he have?

[Roundball_Rock]

Another disingenuous thread, Pippen had a 20+ PER in 5 of the 6 seasons the Bulls won a title and PER does a poor job analyzing overall defensive play and Pippen is probably the greatest defensive SF in history.

The one full prime year Pippen had without MJ was 4th in the NBA in PER. :lol As a comp, Irving's high was 9th--but that PER was 25, not 23.

MJ stans are very selective when they want to factor in stat inflation and when they don't. Maybe time for a thread comparing the PER's of MJ's comp versus LeBron's? Anyone have a hunch as to which group will come out higher in PER?

[nineiron]

The one full prime year Pippen had without MJ was 4th in the NBA in PER. :lol As a comp, Irving's high was 9th--but that PER was 25, not 23.

MJ stans are very selective when they want to factor in stat inflation and when they don't. Maybe time for a thread comparing the PER's of MJ's comp versus LeBron's? Anyone have a hunch as to which group will come out higher in PER?

what's Pippen's career PER? what's Kyrie's? who's the better player?

[goozeman]

It's worse than that... He teamed up with three players ranked in the top three in PER and the only reason he didn't team up with four ranked in the top three overall is because he was ranked 1st at the time, Wade was ranked 2nd and Durant was scoring champ at 3rd. The only way he could have formed a better superteam is to have teamed up with Kevin Durant scoring 30ppg. Let that sink in for a minute.. He literally ran out of room for players in the top three for his shameless front running so he had to take the fourth ranked guy... :oldlol:


Wade 2010 - 28 (3rd overall)
Bosh 2010 - 25 (4th overall)
Love 2014 - 26.7 (3rd overall)
Davis 2019 - 30.3 (3rd overall)

[Shooter]

PER highly rates shot chucking. How were's MJ teammates supposed to have a high PER when he was the one chucking 27 shots per game?

+1 Always gets me

MJ HAD NO OFFENSIVE HELP, HE SCORED LIKE 25% OF THE BULLS POINTS BRO

Um...he took 30% of the shots?

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/kGSrjPvJ/LeBron_James_Dominates.png

#WheresMike

[1987_Lakers]

PER measures a player's impact on the game.

LMFAO @ bron stans that wanna talk about defense

and LMFAO @ "Pippen is probably the greatest defensive SF in history"... how many DPOYs does he have?

PER does not show a player's full defensive impact, no stat does. And 2009-2013 LeBron is one of the most versatile defenders ever, and we all saw how good he was defensively in 2020.

How many DPOY awards does Tim Duncan have? Are we all going to take him off the list of all-time great defensive players because he didn't win a DPOY?

[nineiron]

It's worse than that... He teamed up with three players ranked in the top three in PER and the only reason he didn't team up with four ranked in the top three overall is because he was ranked 1st at the time, Wade was ranked 2nd and Durant was scoring champ at 3rd. The only way he could have formed a better superteam is to have teamed up with Kevin Durant scoring 30ppg. Let that sink in for a minute.. He literally ran out of room for players in the top three for his shameless front running so he had to take the fourth ranked guy... :oldlol:


Wade 2010 - 28 (3rd overall)
Bosh 2010 - 25 (4th overall)
Love 2014 - 26.7 (3rd overall)
Davis 2019 - 30.3 (3rd overall)

LMFAO

now let's look at how high or low these players were drafted:

Wade - 5th overall
Bosh - 4th overall
Love - 5th overall
Davis - 1st overall
Kyrie - 1st overall

[nineiron]

PER does not show a player's full defensive impact, no stat does. And 2009-2013 LeBron is one of the most versatile defenders ever, and we all saw how good he was defensively in 2020.

How many DPOY awards does Tim Duncan have? Are we all going to take him off the list of all-time great defensive players because he didn't win a DPOY?

no one considers Tim Duncan as an all-time great DEFENSIVE player. all-time great player, but not all time DEFENSIVE player.

"Lebum is one of the most versatile defenders ever"? LMFAO, ok pal.

[Shooter]

no one considers Tim Duncan as an all-time great DEFENSIVE player. all-time great player, but not all time DEFENSIVE player.

"Lebum is one of the most versatile defenders ever"? LMFAO, ok pal.

Are you Nike DAntoni, 329 Services or just a fakkit?

Lebron is GOAT. Accept it and move on. It's done.

[Roundball_Rock]

PER does not show a player's full defensive impact, no stat does. And 2009-2013 LeBron is one of the most versatile defenders ever, and we all saw how good he was defensively in 2020.

How many DPOY awards does Tim Duncan have? Are we all going to take him off the list of all-time great defensive players because he didn't win a DPOY?

It also doesn't factor in old man years. You have to be naïve to think Irving's PER today is what his final career PER will be.

[nineiron]

It also doesn't factor in old man years. You have to be naïve to think Irving's PER today is what his final career PER will be.

let's see what Kyrie's PER will be next season. I'll take a wild guess and say it's gonna be higher than Pippen's average of 18.

[1987_Lakers]

no one considers Tim Duncan as an all-time great DEFENSIVE player. all-time great player, but not all time DEFENSIVE player.

"Lebum is one of the most versatile defenders ever"? LMFAO, ok pal.

Duncan made All-Defensive Team 15 times, 8 times as a First Team.

LeBron can shut down point guards and big men in the post, this a proven fact.

[TheGoatest]

The moron who created this thread basically admitted that Anthony Davis > 2nd three-peat Jordan
And a near-36 year-old 17th season LeBron won Finals MVP unanimously over the player who had a higher PER than 2nd three-peat Jordan

:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

Career PER numbers, since that is what we evidently like to use around here. :oldlol:

Magic: 24
Worthy: 18
Drexler: 21
Payton: 19
Kemp: 19
Malone: 24
Stockton: 22
Ewing: 21
Isiah: 18
Dumars: 15
Price: 20
Daughtery: 19
Shaq: 26
Penny: 17
Mourning: 21
Hardaway: 19
Miller: 18

Duncan: 24
Parker: 18
Manu: 20
Dirk: 22
Durant: 25
Westbrook: 24
Harden: 25
Kawhi: 23
Curry: 24
Klay: 16
Butler: 20
Jokic: 25
Billups: 19
KG: 23
Pierce: 20
Rose: 18
George: 19
Horford: 19
Lowry: 18
DeRozan: 18
Thomas: 20
Tatum: 17

Using the logic of OP, 1-9ball, etc., once again we see LeBron's era puts MJ's weak era to shame (per their logic, not mine :oldlol: ).

[nineiron]

Career PER numbers, since that is what we evidently like to use around here. :oldlol:

Magic: 24
Worthy: 18
Drexler: 21
Payton: 19
Kemp: 19
Malone: 24
Stockton: 22
Ewing: 21
Isiah: 18
Dumars: 15
Price: 20
Daughtery: 19
Shaq: 26
Penny: 17
Mourning: 21
Hardaway: 19
Miller: 18

Duncan: 24
Parker: 18
Manu: 20
Dirk: 22
Durant: 25
Westbrook: 24
Harden: 25
Kawhi: 23
Curry: 24
Klay: 16
Butler: 20
Jokic: 25
Billups: 19
KG: 23
Pierce: 20
Rose: 18
George: 19
Horford: 19
Lowry: 18
DeRozan: 18
Thomas: 20
Tatum: 17

Using the logic of OP, 1-9ball, etc., once again we see LeBron's era puts MJ's weak era to shame (per their logic, not mine :oldlol: ).

looking at the highest PER seasons in history, there's a good mix of eras, so STFU

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo 31.86 2019-20
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.82 1962-63
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.74 1961-62
4. Michael Jordan* 31.71 1987-88
5. LeBron James 31.67 2008-09
6. Michael Jordan* 31.63 1990-91
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.63 1963-64
8. LeBron James 31.59 2012-13
9. Stephen Curry 31.46 2015-16
10. Michael Jordan* 31.18 1989-90
11. Michael Jordan* 31.14 1988-89
12. LeBron James 31.11 2009-10
13. Giannis Antetokounmpo 30.89 2018-19
14. Anthony Davis 30.81 2014-15
15. LeBron James 30.74 2011-12
16. David Robinson* 30.66 1993-94
17. Shaquille O'Neal* 30.65 1999-00
18. Russell Westbrook 30.63 2016-17
19. James Harden 30.57 2018-19
20. Shaquille O'Neal* 30.55 1998-99
21. Dwyane Wade 30.36 2008-09
22. Tracy McGrady* 30.27 2002-03
23. Anthony Davis 30.26 2018-19
24. Shaquille O'Neal* 30.23 2000-01
25. Chris Paul 29.96 2008-09
26. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.94 1971-72
27. James Harden 29.83 2017-18
28. Kevin Durant 29.82 2013-14
29. Michael Jordan* 29.78 1986-87
30. Connie Hawkins* 29.74 1968-69
31. Michael Jordan* 29.70 1992-93
32. Shaquille O'Neal* 29.68 2001-02
33. Shaquille O'Neal* 29.49 2002-03
34. Kevin Garnett* 29.44 2003-04
35. David Robinson* 29.41 1995-96
36. Michael Jordan* 29.35 1995-96
37. LeBron James 29.30 2013-14
38. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.22 1977-78
39. LeBron James 29.14 2007-08
40. David Robinson* 29.13 1994-95
41. James Harden 29.08 2019-20
42. Russell Westbrook 29.06 2014-15
43. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.95 1970-71
44. Charles Barkley* 28.93 1990-91
45. Dwyane Wade 28.91 2006-07

[1987_Lakers]

Career PER numbers, since that is what we evidently like to use around here. :oldlol:

Magic: 24
Worthy: 18
Drexler: 21
Payton: 19
Kemp: 19
Malone: 24
Stockton: 22
Ewing: 21
Isiah: 18
Dumars: 15
Price: 20
Daughtery: 19
Shaq: 26
Penny: 17
Mourning: 21
Hardaway: 19
Miller: 18

Duncan: 24
Parker: 18
Manu: 20
Dirk: 22
Durant: 25
Westbrook: 24
Harden: 25
Kawhi: 23
Curry: 24
Klay: 16
Butler: 20
Jokic: 25
Billups: 19
KG: 23
Pierce: 20
Rose: 18
George: 19
Horford: 19
Lowry: 18
DeRozan: 18
Thomas: 20
Tatum: 17

Using the logic of OP, 1-9ball, etc., once again we see LeBron's era puts MJ's weak era to shame (per their logic, not mine :oldlol: ).

:roll:

[Shooter]

The moron who created this thread basically admitted that Anthony Davis > 2nd three-peat Jordan
And a near-36 year-old 17th season LeBron won Finals MVP unanimously over the player who had a higher PER than 2nd three-peat Jordan

:roll:

:roll:

So basically Szn 17 2020 LeBron and his 30.2 PER run is better than 5 of MJ's 6 Championship run

[nineiron]

Duncan made All-Defensive Team 15 times, 8 times as a First Team.

LeBron can shut down point guards and big men in the post, this a proven fact.

Duncan was a good defender, no ones arguing that. but he wasn't "one of the greatest defensive SF in history" as you say.

LeBum can only shut down players when he's allowed to foul them the whole time.

[1987_Lakers]

Duncan was a good defender, no ones arguing that. but he wasn't "one of the greatest defensive SF in history" as you say.

LeBum can only shut down players when he's allowed to foul them the whole time.

When did I call Duncan a SF??

:roll:

MJ stans don't even have a HS diploma.

[goozeman]

The moron who created this thread basically admitted that Anthony Davis > 2nd three-peat Jordan
And a near-36 year-old 17th season LeBron won Finals MVP unanimously over the player who had a higher PER than 2nd three-peat Jordan

:roll:

Lol, funny also that Davis was also Lakers best player this year (led team in ppg, rebounds, WS/48, All-Defensive 1st team, PER) So Lebron can't win a ring unless he teams up with somebody on par with all-time greats, i.e. a player top 3 all-time in PER. Argument works both ways.

[nineiron]

When did I call Duncan a SF??

:roll:

MJ stans don't even have a HS diploma.

i meant Pippen. your alt account made a post about Duncan.

[nineiron]

Lol, funny also that Davis was also Lakers best player this year (led team in ppg, rebounds, WS/48, All-Defensive 1st team, PER) So Lebron can't win a ring unless he teams up with somebody on par with all-time greats, i.e. a player top 3 all-time in PER. Argument works both ways.

yup.

he needs someone to average almost as many (or more) points than him. but he'll gladly take all the credit.

"i want my damn respect". then he turns around and is trying to recruit Chris Paul. LMFAO. you can't make this stuff up.

[1987_Lakers]

i meant Pippen. your alt account made a post about Duncan.


PER does not show a player's full defensive impact, no stat does. And 2009-2013 LeBron is one of the most versatile defenders ever, and we all saw how good he was defensively in 2020.

How many DPOY awards does Tim Duncan have? Are we all going to take him off the list of all-time great defensive players because he didn't win a DPOY?

How is this my alt account?

[nineiron]

How is this my alt account?

Duncan was a good defensive player, everyone knows that. he didn't win DPOY because he wasn't an "elite" defensive player. is he an "all-time great defensive player"? i don't think so. or else he'd have at least 1 DPOY, wouldn't he?

he was definitely an all-time great player. just not an all-time great defensive player.

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:

The best part is Isiah Thomas has the same career PER as Pippen, and we know how Zeke owned MJ. What would MJ be doing in this era? Westbrook was a sidekick on a finals team and his PER is as high as Malone or Magic?

Forgot Barkley on the list. Barkley is at 25.

Magic: 24
Worthy: 18
Drexler: 21
Payton: 19
Kemp: 19
Malone: 24
Stockton: 22
Ewing: 21
Isiah: 18
Dumars: 15
Price: 20
Daughtery: 19
Shaq: 26
Penny: 17
Mourning: 21
Hardaway: 19
Miller: 18
Barkley: 25

Duncan: 24
Parker: 18
Manu: 20
Dirk: 22
Durant: 25
Westbrook: 24
Harden: 25
Kawhi: 23
Curry: 24
Klay: 16
Butler: 20
Jokic: 25
Billups: 19
KG: 23
Pierce: 20
Rose: 18
George: 19
Horford: 19
Lowry: 18
DeRozan: 18
Thomas: 20
Tatum: 17

[1987_Lakers]

Duncan was a good defensive player, everyone knows that. he didn't win DPOY because he wasn't an "elite" defensive player. is he an "all-time great defensive player"? i don't think so. or else he'd have at least 1 DPOY, wouldn't he?

he was definitely an all-time great player. just not an all-time great defensive player.

Duncan has made more All-Defensive teams than any player in history, he has anchored many top tier defenses. You are probably trolling, if not, then I feel bad for you for your lack of knowledge.

[TheGoatest]

Lol, funny also that Davis was also Lakers best player this year (led team in ppg, rebounds, WS/48, All-Defensive 1st team, PER) So Lebron can't win a ring unless he teams up with somebody on par with all-time greats, i.e. a player top 3 all-time in PER. Argument works both ways.

LOL, LeBron was 2nd in MVP voting, and received over 9 times as many MVP vote points as 6th in voting Anthony Davis.

During the playoffs, LeBron led the Lakers in:

PER
Game Score
Value Over Replacement Player
Box Plus Minus
Offensive Box Plus Minus
Defensive Box Plus Minus
Defensive Rating

[nineiron]

The best part is Isiah Thomas has the same career PER as Pippen, and we know how Zeke owned MJ. What would MJ be doing in this era? Westbrook was a sidekick on a finals team and his PER is as high as Malone or Magic?

Forgot Barkley on the list. Barkley is at 25.

Magic: 24
Worthy: 18
Drexler: 21
Payton: 19
Kemp: 19
Malone: 24
Stockton: 22
Ewing: 21
Isiah: 18
Dumars: 15
Price: 20
Daughtery: 19
Shaq: 26
Penny: 17
Mourning: 21
Hardaway: 19
Miller: 18
Barkley: 25

Duncan: 24
Parker: 18
Manu: 20
Dirk: 22
Durant: 25
Westbrook: 24
Harden: 25
Kawhi: 23
Curry: 24
Klay: 16
Butler: 20
Jokic: 25
Billups: 19
KG: 23
Pierce: 20
Rose: 18
George: 19
Horford: 19
Lowry: 18
DeRozan: 18
Thomas: 20
Tatum: 17

Zeke owned MJ? LMFAO, i've heard it all now.

that's why they left Zeke off the Dream Team right? because Zeke was THAT good and would have stole the spotlight from MJ. that's it right?

LMFAO. you bron stans are something else.

[nineiron]

LOL, LeBron was 2nd in MVP voting, and received over 9 times as many MVP vote points as 6th in voting Anthony Davis.

During the playoffs, LeBron led the Lakers in:

PER
Game Score
Value Over Replacement Player
Box Plus Minus
Offensive Box Plus Minus
Defensive Box Plus Minus
Defensive Rating

thank for this Gloria James

[Roundball_Rock]

Duncan has made more All-Defensive teams than any player in history, he has anchored many top tier defenses. You are probably trolling, if not, then I feel bad for you for your lack of knowledge.

Wow. It is stunning.

OP needs to give up. By your own logic, MJ's era is too weak for him to be considered a viable candidate for GOAT.

[3ball]

14' Kyrie was all-star MVP

15' Klay was a 1st time all-star

That's why Lebron/Kyrie/Love were considered better than Curry/Klay/Dray and therefore favored in both 15' and 16' preseasons.

So lebron only faced talent deficits vs KD's warriors in 17-18', which is offset the the Heatles similarly shutting down the league from 11-12'

And regarding the Finals runs in 07' or 18' - 1-star teams routinely won the East, aka Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, Jimmy Butler - only lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted the trend of 1-star teams winning the East.. lebron actually left a couple 1-star runs on the table in 09/10 as the heavy favorite, which is why he started stacking the deck after that..

he formed a super-team in a 1-star conference - is there anything more manufactured than that?.. his entire resume is distorted by this and he'd be Dr. J without the "decision".. that's why I rank him #11 (just ahead of Magic, who's ball-dominance similarly hurt Finals record despite a loaded team.. indeed, magic and kareem can't BOTH be top 5 with an asterisked 5-4 Finals record, so magic gets bumped down due to the same Finals-record-killing ball-dominance that bron has)

[nineiron]

Duncan has made more All-Defensive teams than any player in history, he has anchored many top tier defenses. You are probably trolling, if not, then I feel bad for you for your lack of knowledge.

so he never won DPOY because he was robbed?

[nineiron]

14' Kyrie was all-star MVP

15' Klay was a 1st time all-star

That's why Lebron/Kyrie/Love were considered better than Curry/Klay/Dray and therefore favored in both 15' and 16' preseasons.

So lebron only faced talent deficits vs KD's warriors in 17-18', which is offset the the Heatles similarly shutting down the league from 11-12'

And regarding the Finals runs in 07' or 18' - 1-star teams routinely won the East, aka Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, Jimmy Butler - only lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted the trend of 1-star teams winning the East.. lebron actually left a couple 1-star runs on the table in 09/10 as the heavy favorite, which is why he started stacking the deck after that..

he formed a super-team in a 1-star conference - is there anything more manufactured than that?.. his entire resume is distorted by this and he'd be Dr. J without the "decision".. that's why I rank him #11 (just ahead of Magic, who's ball-dominance similarly hurt Finals record despite a loaded team.. indeed, magic and kareem can't BOTH be top 5 with an asterisked 5-4 Finals record, so magic gets bumped down due to the same Finals-record-killing ball-dominance that bron has)

they also started making him the underdog because he was such a loser.

you're right, LeBum would only be a Dr J or Iverson if he didn't collude. with 0 rings of course

[goozeman]

LOL, LeBron was 2nd in MVP voting, and received over 9 times as many MVP vote points as 6th in voting Anthony Davis.

During the playoffs, LeBron led the Lakers in:

PER
Game Score
Value Over Replacement Player
Box Plus Minus
Offensive Box Plus Minus
Defensive Box Plus Minus
Defensive Rating

Nobody thinks Lebron is the better player at this point of their careers except delusional Lebron fans. Lebron couldn't even get the Lakers in the playoffs last year, but AD shows up and they trounce every team they meet in the playoffs while AD is putting 30ppg, dominating defensively, and hitting last second shots.

[Ainosterhaspie]

DPOY, all-NBA defense are mostly useless accolades. The people handing that out are are generally clueless. It's a reputation, fame award more than real assessment of defensive quality in a given season. And PER does a terrible job assessing defensive value.

There's so much stupid in this thread trying to prop up Jordan it's comical. That and outright disingenuousness like using Pippens career PER instead of PER in seasons they won titles. When you have to resort to stuff like that, you've lost the argument.

[TheGoatest]

Jordan:
5 seasons without Pippen:
5 seasons that were below .500

Pippen:
8 seasons without Jordan:
7 seasons that were above .500

Can't make this up. :roll:

[3ball]

Jordan:
5 seasons without Pippen:
5 seasons that were below .500

Pippen:
8 seasons without Jordan:
7 seasons that were above .500

Can't make this up. :roll:

What's lebron's playoff record before and after Larry Hughes

or COY Mike Brown

go

[Roundball_Rock]

There's so much stupid in this thread trying to prop up Jordan it's comical. That and outright disingenuousness like using Pippens career PER instead of PER in seasons they won titles. When you have to resort to stuff like that, you've lost the argument.

Exactly. Especially when they won't own the other side of the coin: if PER is that great a metric, then LeBron's era>>>>>>>Jordan's. They want to, as usual, have it both ways.

LeBron has wrecked an entire fan base.

[1987_Lakers]

DPOY, all-NBA defense are mostly useless accolades. The people handing that out are are generally clueless. It's a reputation, fame award more than real assessment of defensive quality in a given season. And PER does a terrible job assessing defensive value.

There's so much stupid in this thread trying to prop up Jordan it's comical. That and outright disingenuousness like using Pippens career PER instead of PER in seasons they won titles. When you have to resort to stuff like that, you've lost the argument.

Kobe made alot All-Defensive teams when he shouldn't have due to reputation, in Duncan's case his selections were valid. Duncan was an elite rim protector, fundamentally sound post defender and rebounder.

[Kblaze8855]

no one considers Tim Duncan as an all-time great DEFENSIVE player


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HelpfulUntriedGrouper-size_restricted.gif

[Trollsmasher]

What's lebron's playoff record before and after Larry Hughes

or COY Mike Brown

go

I'm pretty sure he won 4 rings after Larry and Mike but I gotta check on that

[tpols]

I will say this... Pippen's first ring in 1991 was a pretty legit ring. He scored on 114 ORTG and had +14 overall splits. That deserves recognition. In 1992 it's pretty much the same story. For whatever reason Pippen slipped in 1993. I think it's because he got punked by the knicks. He had negative metrics in that playoff run, but MJ was able to overcome it and beat a peak mean Charles Barkley and loaded Suns team. 1996 might be his most impressive run though. 96 DRTG? +15? Jesus... now I dont think he could do these things as a first option... 1994 Pippen was a paltry +5 and got sonned mano y mano vs Pat Ewing with identical help. But as a 2nd option, I have to give Scottie his credit. Most of the negative things I've said about him are to troll rockhead. :lol It is true however he is not clutch. But he brings a lot more to the table outside that.

[guy]

Career PER numbers, since that is what we evidently like to use around here. :oldlol:

Magic: 24
Worthy: 18
Drexler: 21
Payton: 19
Kemp: 19
Malone: 24
Stockton: 22
Ewing: 21
Isiah: 18
Dumars: 15
Price: 20
Daughtery: 19
Shaq: 26
Penny: 17
Mourning: 21
Hardaway: 19
Miller: 18

Duncan: 24
Parker: 18
Manu: 20
Dirk: 22
Durant: 25
Westbrook: 24
Harden: 25
Kawhi: 23
Curry: 24
Klay: 16
Butler: 20
Jokic: 25
Billups: 19
KG: 23
Pierce: 20
Rose: 18
George: 19
Horford: 19
Lowry: 18
DeRozan: 18
Thomas: 20
Tatum: 17

Using the logic of OP, 1-9ball, etc., once again we see LeBron's era puts MJ's weak era to shame (per their logic, not mine :oldlol: ).

Did you actually even do the averages? You also forgot Bird, McHale, KJ and Nique (already noted that you forgot Barkley) for Jordan's era, and also guys like Howard and Draymond for Lebron. I'm sure there's more forgotten ones, but those were most glaring. If you actually average both sets of numbers, they are basically the same.

Furthermore, weak era? You do realize that PER is a relative stat right? :oldlol: Its not meant to tell you anything on an absolute basis across eras. If it somehow was, I'm sure Wilt would have like 50 PER :oldlol:.

(Not going to even bother how flawed looking solely at PER is. If people think Westbrook is as good as Bird and Magic even relative to their eras, then they're ****ing idiots.)

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm pretty sure he won 4 rings after Larry and Mike but I gotta check on that

:lol

[Ainosterhaspie]

Kobe made alot All-Defensive teams when he shouldn't have due to reputation, in Duncan's case his selections were valid. Duncan was an elite rim protector, fundamentally sound post defender and rebounder.

Duncan is absolutely elite. Maybe a better way for me to phrase my point is that they get those awards right sometimes, but they often get them wrong.

[Phoenix]

I will say this... Pippen's first ring in 1991 was a pretty legit ring. He scored on 114 ORTG and had +14 overall splits. That deserves recognition. In 1992 it's pretty much the same story. For whatever reason Pippen slipped in 1993. I think it's because he got punked by the knicks. He had negative metrics in that playoff run, but MJ was able to overcome it and beat a peak mean Charles Barkley and loaded Suns team. 1996 might be his most impressive run though. 96 DRTG? +15? Jesus... now I dont think he could do these things as a first option... 1994 Pippen was a paltry +5 and got sonned mano y mano vs Pat Ewing with identical help. But as a 2nd option, I have to give Scottie his credit. Most of the negative things I've said about him are to troll rockhead. :lol It is true however he is not clutch. But he brings a lot more to the table outside that.

Out of genuine curiosity, did you actually see any of this? Because you reference 'splits' and 'Ortg' in just about every post whether its a player from 30 years ago or today but it's hard to distinguish what is 'I saw this' from 'I looked up basketball reference'. Pippen 'slipped' in 93 because he was nursing some injuries, not because he was 'punked' by the Knicks the prior year. For the record, the MJ/ Pip combo in 91 was spectacular.

[Roundball_Rock]

Out of genuine curiosity, did you actually see any of this? Because you reference 'splits' and 'Ortg' in just about every post whether its a player from 30 years ago or today but it's hard to distinguish what is 'I saw this' from 'I looked up basketball reference'. Pippen 'slipped' in 93 because he was nursing some injuries, not because he was 'punked' by the Knicks the prior year. For the record, the MJ/ Pip combo in 91 was spectacular.

No he didn't. He thinks 91' Pippen was peak Pippen simply going by stats (scoring, pace was higher back then and these idiots look at FG %, which not surprisingly was higher when Pippen did more dunking and less mid-range or 3 point shooting like he did when he honed his game). :lol That arguably was his weakest prime year.

Good catch on "splits." There are no splits. This guy is an idiot. He takes ORTG and DRTG and calls the net difference "splits" which is incredibly dumb. Not worth going into more detail, other than if you use that logic Kerr was a superstar (+35 "split"--the real MVP of the 96' team?!). :oldlol:


He had negative metrics in that playoff run

93' Pippen was a negative impact player. :roll: More evidence he didn't watch. Pippen was their MVP in the ECF per SI (hit all the clutch shots--but not clutch to this kid) and then went 21/9/8 in the finals.

His posting suggests he started watching at some point in the 2000's, probably the mid-part of the decade when Kobe was going strong and he latched onto Kobe.

[Shooter]

I will say this... Pippen's first ring in 1991 was a pretty legit ring. He scored on 114 ORTG and had +14 overall splits. That deserves recognition. In 1992 it's pretty much the same story. For whatever reason Pippen slipped in 1993. I think it's because he got punked by the knicks. He had negative metrics in that playoff run, but MJ was able to overcome it and beat a peak mean Charles Barkley and loaded Suns team. 1996 might be his most impressive run though. 96 DRTG? +15? Jesus... now I dont think he could do these things as a first option... 1994 Pippen was a paltry +5 and got sonned mano y mano vs Pat Ewing with identical help. But as a 2nd option, I have to give Scottie his credit. Most of the negative things I've said about him are to troll rockhead. :lol It is true however he is not clutch. But he brings a lot more to the table outside that.

If 1994 Pippen trades MJ's replacement Pete Myers for Jimmy Butler do they win the chip that year?

[Roundball_Rock]

If 1994 Pippen trades MJ's replacement Pete Myers for Jimmy Butler do they win the chip that year?

Easily. They could have won with Hornacek or Kendall Gill, any good SG, let alone a star like Butler. Butler would give the Bulls a legitimate second scorer (the big hole in their roster) and he, like Pippen, would be an elite two-way player.

[Phoenix]

No he didn't. He thinks 91' Pippen was peak Pippen simply going by stats (scoring, pace was higher back then and these idiots look at FG %, which not surprisingly was higher when Pippen did more dunking and less mid-range or 3 point shooting like he did when he honed his game). :lol That arguably was his weakest prime year.

Good catch on "splits." There are no splits. This guy is an idiot. He takes ORTG and DRTG and calls the net difference "splits" which is incredibly dumb. Not worth going into more detail, other than if you use that logic Kerr was a superstar (+35 "split"--the real MVP of the 96' team?!). :oldlol:



93' Pippen was a negative impact player. :roll: More evidence he didn't watch. Pippen was their MVP in the ECF per SI (hit all the clutch shots--but not clutch to this kid) and then went 21/9/8 in the finals.

His posting suggests he started watching at some point in the 2000's, probably the mid-part of the decade when Kobe was going strong and he latched onto Kobe.

Yeah, it's just an odd obsession with these terms but I rarely see any context behind them to think they aren't just google-centric posturing.

[tpols]

If 1994 Pippen trades MJ's replacement Pete Myers for Jimmy Butler do they win the chip that year?

Beat Hakeem?

:roll:

They might beat the Knicks, who were a Toni Kukoc buzzer beater away from a sweep, but Jimmy Butler is much better than John Starks. So it would be a 2v1 situation.

1v1 with perfectly equal circumstances Pat Ewing owned Pippen.

[Shooter]

Beat Hakeem?

:roll:

They might beat the Knicks, who were a Toni Kukoc buzzer beater away from a sweep, but Jimmy Butler is much better than John Starks. So it would be a 2v1 situation.

1v1 Pat owned Pippen.

So you don't think Butler, Pippen, Grant can beat Hakeem, Maxwell, Cassell?

[Shooter]

Easily. They could have won with Hornacek or Kendall Gill, any good SG, let alone a star like Butler. Butler would give the Bulls a legitimate second scorer (the big hole in their roster) and he, like Pippen, would be an elite two-way player.

Exactly. Without a doubt, in any sound mind resembling logical thought, Pippen swaps out MJ for Jimmy Butler in 1994 and they are WINNING that year. 1995 as well. It doesn't mean MJ's impact is weak (I mean, that's another story :lol) It means Pippen was a legitimate star.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, it's just an odd obsession with these terms but I rarely see any context behind them to think they aren't just google-centric posturing.

He tries to present it as something they are not. That is why he says "splits" instead of saying where the numbers come from. Honest posters always "show their work" so people can 1) see what they are talking about 2) people can dispute the methodology if they see a flaw.

At least he exposed he didn't watch any of these players. A few weeks ago he said Pippen had no post game, another laughable claim. He is a 3ball disciple. He will simply echo whatever his leader says, just with a weird "splits" and "ORTG" shtick.


So you don't think Butler, Pippen, Grant can beat Hakeem, Maxwell, Cassell?

He is crazy. The Knicks with Ewing, Starks, Oakley, Smith, Harper were one shot away against the Rockets but Pippen, Butler, Grant, BJ, Kukoc couldn't beat them? :lol Remember, though, as has been established, he never watched Pippen play so he wouldn't know.

[nineiron]

Lmao @ all the bron stans propping up Pippens defence. Yeah he was an above average defender, so were a lot of players. MJ himself was a better defender than Pippen.

Imagine 3 peating twice with a 2nd option who’s career PER is 18. Just for reference, 15 is considered league average.

[Shooter]

Lmao @ all the bron stans propping up Pippens defence. Yeah he was an above average defender, so were a lot of players. MJ himself was a better defender than Pippen.

Imagine 3 peating twice with a 2nd option who’s career PER is 18. Just for reference, 15 is considered league average.

Pippen had a better DefRtg EACH year they made the Finals.

https://i.postimg.cc/gj4c8W0r/pip-elite-defense-xzz.png

Did people not know this?

[kawhileonard2]

LMFAO

now let's look at how high or low these players were drafted:

Wade - 5th overall
Bosh - 4th overall
Love - 5th overall
Davis - 1st overall
Kyrie - 1st overall

Wow! Don't forget Shaq as well who was the #1 pick and he only got to round 2 with Lebron. Or Duncan/Iverson who were #1 picks and they won bronze medal together with Lebron on the squad.

[Shooter]

Pippen had a better DefRtg EACH year they made the Finals.

https://i.postimg.cc/gj4c8W0r/pip-elite-defense-xzz.png

Did people not know this?

Guys?

[sdot_thadon]

14' Kyrie was all-star MVP

15' Klay was a 1st time all-star

That's why Lebron/Kyrie/Love were considered better than Curry/Klay/Dray and therefore favored in both 15' and 16' preseasons.

So lebron only faced talent deficits vs KD's warriors in 17-18', which is offset the the Heatles similarly shutting down the league from 11-12'

Let's again highlight your absolutely shit level logic....

Scottie Pippen was allstar mvp in 94

Penny Hardaway was a 1st time all star in 95

That's why the 95 Bulls were considered better than the 95 Magic.....oh wait.

Therefore Mj only faced a talent deficit in the 1991 finals and Worthy was hurt....

Am I doing this right?

[nineiron]

Wow! Don't forget Shaq as well who was the #1 pick and he only got to round 2 with Lebron. Or Duncan/Iverson who were #1 picks and they won bronze medal together with Lebron on the squad.

how did i miss those?

Wade - 5th overall
Bosh - 4th overall
Love - 5th overall
Davis - 1st overall
Kyrie - 1st overall
Shaq - 1st overall

and, yes, we'll never forget Lebronze!