Is there another legend whose legacy is chained to 1 player like Jordan's to Pippen?

[TheGoatest]

LeBron - won multiple championships without Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD
Kareem - won without Magic
Russell - won without Havlicek/Cousy, etc.
Wilt - won without West/Greer
Magic - won game 6 of 1980 finals without Kareem, made finals in 1991 without Kareem
Kobe - won without Shaq
Shaq - won without Kobe
Duncan - won without Robinson/Parker/Manu/Kawhi
Hakeem - won without a single star player
Bird - Had a 61-win season as a rookie, made it to the 2nd round without McHale/Parish

Jordan - 5 seasons without Pippen, all 5 seasons were under .500, along with a 1-9 record in playoffs

He'll have to drag Pippen along whenever his name is brought up.

https://st.depositphotos.com/2074779/2175/i/950/depositphotos_21756747-stock-photo-the-ball-and-chain.jpg

[RoundMoundOfReb]

No Pip, no chip.

[LonelyOwl]

No Pip, no chip.
Yep not a single winning season without Pippen

https://i.postimg.cc/8Cr5yWD2/michael-jordan-career-w-l-recorg-without-scottie-pippen-1985-39-47-39174969-1.png

[8Ball]

Imagine if Jordan had LeBron passing ability.

Too bad he is inferior in that department. As well as inferior rebounder, less strong, smaller.

[And1AllDay]

Yep not a single winning season without Pippen

https://i.postimg.cc/8Cr5yWD2/michael-jordan-career-w-l-recorg-without-scottie-pippen-1985-39-47-39174969-1.png

my goodness

pathetic

[nineiron]

imagine thinking that MJ won only because of Pippen.

[And1AllDay]

imagine thinking that MJ won only because of Pippen.


show us the proof

[nineiron]

show us the proof

how many points did Pippen average in any of the finals? how many does he average for career playoffs?

[Roundball_Rock]

how many points did Pippen average in any of the finals? how many does he average for career playoffs?

Here comes the hypocrisy. Using raw PPG as a metric, Woolridge was MJ's best teammate in Chicago (and Stackhouse overall). Woolridge put up 20+ each year with MJ. Oakley also gave the Bulls 20/15 during the 87' playoffs. So if he didn't need Pippen, PPG is the be all end all, and he was getting 20+ each year before Pippen in the PO (and 20+ each year after Pippen in the RS--no PO), where are the results? MJ fans say he had "no help" those years but by your own metric he had plenty of help. According to MJ fans, 87' Oakley or Woolridge was "more help" than 98' Pippen (insane but their logic).

The other argument is the comp was "too tough." 86' MJ barely played so being the 8 seed is not his fault but 85' he played the full season as he did in 87'--where he battled prime Bird for MVP. They went 40-42, not 50-32 or something like that.

No matter what his teammates did, the answer is always "MJ had no help." Poor guy. Imagine if he had some help. He could have won some rings.

P.S. Pippen outscored the opposing #2 option in 5 of 6 finals (in your defense, it isn't hard to outscore Stockton's 9.7, even when injured I guess) . The opposing #2 didn't clear 20+ PPG in 5 of 6 finals while Pippen did in 4 of 6. But you knew all that, didn't you? :oldlol:

[MadDog]

That's what happens when a player, Jordan in this example, chooses to stick with one team. The complete opposite of LeBron "Needs More Help" James :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

That's what happens when a player, Jordan in this example, chooses to stick with one team. The complete opposite of LeBron "Needs More Help" James :oldlol:

That is the fantasy. In reality he played 1/3 of his career without Pippen, although he was ancient for the final two. Also, look at the list. Many of those players stayed with one team.

This stuff comes up for two reasons. The prime reason is MJ stans act like MJ wo by himself and wave "6-0!" and "6 rangz" as a towel in the face of LeBron/KAJ whenever they come up (KAJ has 6 but not all 6 "count"). The logical question then becomes what was the team context behind that team success? Which leads to the obvious: there was none when he didn't have a HOF teammate. The second reason is we are talking 40-42 and first round defeats. If Jordan had something like the 07' Cavs on his record, even if he didn't win the chip, it could be argued he at least came close. Instead we are talking losing records and first round defeats.

If MJ fans simply argued MJ is the GOAT because he was a better player then this scrutiny of his team success (almost all coming with a HOF teammate/teammates and the GOAT coach) would not exist.

What I find personally amusing is how MJ fans hype every 90's contender as "stacked" (except the dominant team, Chicago) and then turn around and say those "stacked" teams lost to a one man team every year. :lol

[KirbyPls]

Here comes the hypocrisy. Using raw PPG as a metric, Woolridge was MJ's best teammate in Chicago (and Stackhouse overall). Woolridge put up 20+ each year with MJ. Oakley also gave the Bulls 20/15 during the 87' playoffs. So if he didn't need Pippen, PPG is the be all end all, and he was getting 20+ each year before Pippen in the PO (and 20+ each year after Pippen in the RS--no PO), where are the results? MJ fans say he had "no help" those years but by your own metric he had plenty of help. According to MJ fans, 87' Oakley or Woolridge was "more help" than 98' Pippen (insane but their logic).

The other argument is the comp was "too tough." 86' MJ barely played so being the 8 seed is not his fault but 85' he played the full season as he did in 87'--where he battled prime Bird for MVP. They went 40-42, not 50-32 or something like that.

No matter what his teammates did, the answer is always "MJ had no help." Poor guy. Imagine if he had some help. He could have won some rings.

P.S. Pippen outscored the opposing #2 option in 5 of 6 finals (in your defense, it isn't hard to outscore Stockton's 9.7, even when injured I guess) . The opposing #2 didn't clear 20+ PPG in 5 of 6 finals while Pippen did in 4 of 6. But you knew all that, didn't you? :oldlol:

Ether.

[MadDog]

That is the fantasy. In reality he played 1/3 of his career without Pippen, although he was ancient for the final two. Also, look at the list. Many of those players stayed with one team.

This stuff comes up for two reasons. The prime reason is MJ stans act like MJ wo by himself and wave "6-0!" and "6 rangz" as a towel in the face of LeBron/KAJ whenever they come up (KAJ has 6 but not all 6 "count"). The logical question then becomes what was the team context behind that team success? Which leads to the obvious: there was none when he didn't have a HOF teammate. The second reason is we are talking 40-42 and first round defeats. If Jordan had something like the 07' Cavs on his record, even if he didn't win the chip, it could be argued he at least came close. Instead we are talking losing records and first round defeats.

If MJ fans simply argued MJ is the GOAT because he was a better player then this scrutiny of his team success (almost all coming with a HOF teammate/teammates and the GOAT coach) would not exist.

What I find personally amusing is how MJ fans hype every 90's contender as "stacked" (except the dominant team, Chicago) and then turn around and say those "stacked" teams lost to a one man team every year. :lol

Jordan played with Pippen the majority of his career, or roughly ~80% of his stint as a Bull. So, why and how did that prevent Jordan from teamhopping? :confusedshrug: The point made was LeBron unwilling to manage the growing pains that come with building a team and dynasty. He went the safe route, and joined 2 established stars (one being a superstar/FMVP with one of the GOAT finals) for an easy ring. In other words, LeBron used a shortcut. Jordan fans don't act like he won by himself. Everyone ranks Pippen in the 20 range with the knowledge that Jordan helped mold Pippen into an allstar. He built his talent up and then formed a dynasty. So, the circumstances couldn't be different compared to LeBron who joined "made" guys.

Jordan sits comfortably knowing that he has the edge in: MVPs, FMVPs, rings as the man, 10 scoring titles (LeBron has 1 :oldlol:) and more All-NBA defensive teams. The kicker? This ALL accumulated in fewer years played :oldlol: For misc, Jordan also leads LeBron in: Regular-season, Playoffs and Finals PPG, Regular-season/Playoffs PER and Regular-season/Playoffs BPM. Simply put, LeBron's closer to Top 5 than he is GOAT.

[2ball]

3ball has been reduced to his madDog account lolol

[nineiron]

Here comes the hypocrisy. Using raw PPG as a metric, Woolridge was MJ's best teammate in Chicago (and Stackhouse overall). Woolridge put up 20+ each year with MJ. Oakley also gave the Bulls 20/15 during the 87' playoffs. So if he didn't need Pippen, PPG is the be all end all, and he was getting 20+ each year before Pippen in the PO (and 20+ each year after Pippen in the RS--no PO), where are the results? MJ fans say he had "no help" those years but by your own metric he had plenty of help. According to MJ fans, 87' Oakley or Woolridge was "more help" than 98' Pippen (insane but their logic).

The other argument is the comp was "too tough." 86' MJ barely played so being the 8 seed is not his fault but 85' he played the full season as he did in 87'--where he battled prime Bird for MVP. They went 40-42, not 50-32 or something like that.

No matter what his teammates did, the answer is always "MJ had no help." Poor guy. Imagine if he had some help. He could have won some rings.

P.S. Pippen outscored the opposing #2 option in 5 of 6 finals (in your defense, it isn't hard to outscore Stockton's 9.7, even when injured I guess) . The opposing #2 didn't clear 20+ PPG in 5 of 6 finals while Pippen did in 4 of 6. But you knew all that, didn't you? :oldlol:

lmfao @ the guys you just named as being MJ's "help". Woolridge, Oakley? lmfao. you think that's "help"? lmfao

let's compare that to:

Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Allen, Love, Shaq, AD

LMFAO

[2ball]

lmfao @ the guys you just named as being MJ's "help". Woolridge, Oakley? lmfao. you think that's "help"? lmfao

let's compare that to:

Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Allen, Love, Shaq, AD

LMFAO

You always reduce help to ppg. MJ had nearly 3 20ppg scorers on his team in 86

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jordan played with Pippen the majority of his career, or roughly ~80% of his stint as a Bull. So, why and how did that prevent Jordan from teamhopping? :confusedshrug: The point made was LeBron unwilling to manage the growing pains that come with building a team and dynasty. He went the safe route, and joined 2 established stars (one being a superstar/FMVP with one of the GOAT finals) for an easy ring. In other words, LeBron used a shortcut. Jordan fans don't act like he won by himself. Everyone ranks Pippen in the 20 range with the knowledge that Jordan helped mold Pippen into an allstar. He built his talent up and then formed a dynasty. So, the circumstances couldn't be different compared to LeBron who joined "made" guys.

Jordan sits comfortably knowing that he has the edge in: MVPs, FMVPs, rings as the man, 10 scoring titles (LeBron has 1 :oldlol:) and more All-NBA defensive teams. The kicker? This ALL accumulated in fewer years played :oldlol: For misc, Jordan also leads LeBron in: Regular-season, Playoffs and Finals PPG, Regular-season/Playoffs PER and Regular-season/Playoffs BPM. Simply put, LeBron's closer to Top 5 than he is GOAT.
Yikes


The MVP argument means nothing, lebron has been the best player in the league for 10+ years regardless of the media giving him MVP.

The FMVP argument is the same as the ring argument... thats to say it isn't one and has been debunked a million times

The PPG argument is irrelevant, LeBron is the main playmaker for his team on top of being an elite scorer. He's always accounted for more ppg than Jordan, and of course has less scoring titles due to, you know, being one of the best playmakers/passers of all time (something Jordan can only dream of)


None of your arguments mean anything. Theyre all casual fan arguments with no substance.

Lebron has been the best playoff performer (playoff MVP) for 8 years straight... the best finals performer for 8 years straight (when his team is in playoffs)


That's 8 FMVPS in a row, when judging with context of who the best player was in the finals. We're judging individuals, not teams

Your arguments suck and fall flat

[nineiron]

You always reduce help to ppg. MJ had nearly 3 20ppg scorers on his team in 86

ok buddy

[MadDog]

Yikes


The MVP argument means nothing, lebron has been the best player in the league for 10+ years regardless of the media giving him MVP.

The FMVP argument is the same as the ring argument... thats to say it isn't one and has been debunked a million times

The PPG argument is irrelevant, LeBron is the main playmaker for his team on top of being an elite scorer. He's always accounted for more ppg than Jordan, and of course has less scoring titles due to, you know, being one of the best playmakers/passers of all time (something Jordan can only dream of)


None of your arguments mean anything. Theyre all casual fan arguments with no substance.

Lebron has been the best playoff performer (playoff MVP) for 8 years straight... the best finals performer for 8 years straight (when his team is in playoffs)


That's 8 FMVPS in a row, when judging with context of who the best player was in the finals. We're judging individuals, not teams

Your arguments suck and fall flat

"MVPs, FMVPS and individual numbers dont mean anything". You wrote a whole lot and said basically nothing. Good job, good effort :oldlol:

[AlternativeAcc.]

"MVPs, FMVPS and individual numbers dont mean anything". You wrote a whole lot and said basically nothing. Good job, good effort :oldlol:

Lebron has been thr best playoff performer for 8 years straight and best finals performer for 8 years years straight (greatest feat in sports history)

The media awards don't tell the actual story.

That's why you're a casual fan and I'm not. You latch on to team achievements and scoring titles (when the guy was taking 10 more shots than anybody else)

:roll:

You suck

Of course you have no rebuttal, casual fan

[Roundball_Rock]

lmfao @ the guys you just named as being MJ's "help". Woolridge, Oakley? lmfao. you think that's "help"? lmfao


That is what you all call help, on the basis of PPG. Your own standard. What is the explanation?


You always reduce help to ppg.

Yup. :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Does 1999 lockout year even count? The alphas in Chicago all left and Duncan had to beat 8th seed Allan Houston LOL

Duncan without Manu was 1-8 against phil Jackson

[nineiron]

That is what you all call help, on the basis of PPG. Your own standard. What is the explanation?



yeah, real help like Kyrie and AD. you know, the guys that averaged pretty much the same PPG as LeFraud during their finals wins..

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly. PPG is your own metric and MJ got 20+ PPG in the playoffs each year before Pippen. The results were...?

Only Jordan could get 20+ nearly every year and have his fans complain about a lack of scoring help. 85', 86', 87', 91', 92', 93', 97' MJ got 20+ (if you exclude a game Pippen played 7 minutes in 97'). Who else did from that era?

I believe Malone got 20+ twice in Utah (J. Malone, not Stockton). Ewing probably never did in his prime. Prime Robinson? Twice, one which was his rookie year. Hakeem? 3x in his prime.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Sidney Moncrief took 1987 Celtics to 7 but Jordan got swept. Ouch. The triangle/Pippen wins again.

[Shooter]

MJ got checked my Terry Cummings. Stop it.

[Stephonit]

Pippen to Jordan.

[Shooter]

Where's the lie

https://i.postimg.cc/t4rdbbQd/mj_ring_flowchart.png

[Smoke117]

Regardless of what Magic did without Kareem, he's definitely tied to him. When you think of Magic you always think of Kareem, too. All the success Magic had was with Kareem.

[Stanley Kobrick]

tom brady and belichek

[Jasper]

No Pip, no chip.
ditto

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp in the NBA.

[ScottieQuitting]

Well yea, it’s impressive molding another player into a lesser version of yourself but also elevating their worth. Taking them from having potential to the point of strength and respectability.

Not near as embarrassing as having still a losing championship record and only getting their by being tied to Free Agency player movement and manipulation.