Sidekicks/3rd Options on LeBron's, Jordan's *Competition*

[Roundball_Rock]

We hear about Pippen vs. Davis or Pippen vs. Wade ad nauseum. How about comparing the sidekicks on the competition--the players on the same court in the same era, not fictional match ups 20, 25, 30 years later. Let's do the same for #3's on the same teams since the same thing happens with them. We hear about Chris Bosh and Grant--in which the discussion 1) implies teams in the 90's had a Chris Bosh level player as their third best player, not a Grant type and 2) that having Horace Grant as your third best player was a grievous disadvantage relative to the comp. Is this true?

Most of these are "sidekicks" on finals and ECF opponents but not all. Each of them played against MJ or LeBron in the playoffs in years they made the finals.

To clarify, these are lists of the 2nd/3rd best players, not necessarily based on scoring. I list "option" because that term is used interchangeably by fans.

MJ comp sidekicks: Dumars, Hawkins, Worthy, Daughtery, McDaniel, Porter, Starks, Johnson, Kemp, Penny, Stockton, Mourning, Smits.

LeBron comp sidekicks: Hamilton, Parker, Lewis, Pierce, Deng, Terry, Amare, Westbrook, West, Kawhi, Klay, Millsap, P. Gasol, Lowry, Curry, Horford, Tatum, Murray, Bam.

MJ comp 3rd options: Rodman, Gilliam, Scott, Nance, Starks, Kersey, Oakley, Majerle, Schrempf, Grant, Hornacek, Mashburn, M. Jackson.

LeBron comp third options: Prince, Ginobili, Turkuglo, Allen, Boozer, Chandler, J. Smith, Harden, Hibbert, Duncan, Green, Teague, Rose, JV, Klay, Bradley, J. Brown, Grant, Herro.

Are these equal lists? How do you assess these players?

If you categorize these players by MVP caliber, all-NBA 1st team caliber, all-NBA caliber, multiple all-star, etc. it is obvious LeBron's lists are much stronger. A lot of the MJ era sidekicks were 1-2x all-stars. None of the MJ era third options are HOF players--other than ironically Dennis Rodman. In LeBron's era, you have several HOF players who were 3rd options.

To be frank, the LeBron 3rd option list is stronger than the MJ-era 2nd option list. That said, this is only half the equation. You have to look at what LeBron and MJ had on their teams as well--but we see that done 24/7. Who they played against is routinely ignored, as if they played in a golf-style vacuum.

YMMV, though. What are your takes?

[2ball]

Ordan stans entire argument against LeBron has boiled down to him playing with four other players on a court and that he didn’t do it himself. They don’t seam to grasp that it’s a team game

[Roundball_Rock]

Ordan stans entire argument against LeBron has boiled down to him playing with four other players on a court and that he didn’t do it himself. They don’t seam to grasp that it’s a team game

What is inexplicable to me is how they routinely decry alleged MJ's poverty of help* (the same bums who won 55 with Pete Myers "replacing" MJ :oldlol: ) when he had Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Kukoc--and then the same people will talk about how stacked teams with John Starks and Charles Oakley or Terry Porter and Jerome Kersey or Rik Smits and Mark Jackson were. Excuse me? None of these people are sniffing the HOF. It is detached from reality.

We are supposed to believe that every 90's contender was stacked--stacked!--except the team that won 72, 69, 67 games, the team that won 55 without their best player. That team? Just MJ and a bunch of guys.

*Many of the same people will then say Pippen in 94' had the best supporting cast in the NBA and that the Bulls should have won the chip with that roster.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans suddenly don't want to compare sidekicks/3rd guys? :confusedshrug:

[TheCorporation]

MJ stans suddenly don't want to compare sidekicks/3rd guys? :confusedshrug:

:lol

We got them right where we want them

[StrongLurk]

OP, I agree with most of your posts, especially the competition posts comparing the 90's (not the 80's) to the 10's.

But...MJ is definitely the best NBA player of all time. When you just look at per game production in the modern era (3-pointer), MJ is number 1 in most meaningful categories, and was clearly an elite defensive player as well. Ignore the "team" accomplishments, MJ is still number 1.

MJ in the 80's playoffs (pre-peak) was 35/7/7/2.4/1.1, 58.9 TS%, 28.8 PER, 11.9 BPM...just a monster all around BEFORE HIS PEAK.

[Smoke117]

OP, I agree with most of your posts, especially the competition posts comparing the 90's (not the 80's) to the 10's.

But...MJ is definitely the best NBA player of all time. When you just look at per game production in the modern era (3-pointer), MJ is number 1 in most meaningful categories, and was clearly an elite defensive player as well. Ignore the "team" accomplishments, MJ is still number 1.

Kareem is the best player of all time.

[SATAN]

LeBron is the best player of all time.

[Roundball_Rock]

OP, I agree with most of your posts, especially the competition posts comparing the 90's (not the 80's) to the 10's.

But...MJ is definitely the best NBA player of all time. When you just look at per game production in the modern era (3-pointer), MJ is number 1 in most meaningful categories, and was clearly an elite defensive player as well. Ignore the "team" accomplishments, MJ is still number 1.

MJ in the 80's playoffs (pre-peak) was 35/7/7/2.4/1.1, 58.9 TS%, 28.8 PER, 11.9 BPM...just a monster all around BEFORE HIS PEAK.

I have MJ ahead of LeBron, but KAJ as GOAT.

OP is about pointing out a flaw in their argument. They keep comparing Pippen to Davis/Wade/Irving or Grant/Rodman to Love/Bosh but never to the actual 2nd/3rd guys they competed against. Probably because they know no other team had Pippen/Rodman as their 2nd/3rd guys. Look at 98'. The comp was Smits/Jackson and Stockton/Hornacek. 1 HOF among those four while Pippen and Rodman are both HOF. What are they going to do? Post a thread saying Hornacek>Rodman or Starks>Pippen? :lol

Nor do they compare Irving/Love to Curry/Klay or Klay/Green or Wade/Bosh to Westbrook/Harden etc. Probably because they know there were other teams with comparable 2nd/3rd guys in LeBron's era.

[StrongLurk]

I have MJ ahead of LeBron, but KAJ as GOAT.

OP is about pointing out a flaw in their argument. They keep comparing Pippen to Davis/Wade/Irving or Grant/Rodman to Love/Bosh but never to the actual 2nd/3rd guys they competed against. Probably because they know no other team had Pippen/Rodman as their 2nd/3rd guys. Look at 98'. The comp was Smits/Jackson and Stockton/Hornacek. 1 HOF among those four while Pippen and Rodman are both HOF. What are they going to do? Post a thread saying Hornacek>Rodman or Starks>Pippen? :lol

Nor do they compare Irving/Love to Curry/Klay or Klay/Green or Wade/Bosh to Westbrook/Harden etc. Probably because they know there were other teams with comparable 2nd/3rd guys in LeBron's era.

It's simple, Lebron played with much greater offensive help than MJ. MJ played with greater defensive help/coaching.

Lebron's competition overall was greater talent-wise than MJ's competition, but not by a huge margin.

MJ himself was an athletic freak just like Lebron, but had more refined offensive and defensive skills. Lebron is very skilled as well, but relies more on his "talent" than MJ did. MJ was much stronger and consistent MENTALLY when playing basketball, which is a big difference when trying to compare two of the three best players ever.

MJ's got the slight edge when it comes to individual production/efficiency/skills/eye-test compared to Lebron. MJ's resume is MUCH GREATER than Lebron's still...but is also inflated in some ways.

To me no matter how you slice it, MJ is still ahead of Lebron.

Again, I like Kareem as much as anyone, but to say he is the GOAT is a little too "basketball on paper with little context" for me.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's simple, Lebron played with much greater offensive help than MJ. MJ played with greater defensive help/coaching.

Lebron's competition overall was greater talent-wise than MJ's competition, but not by a huge margin.

The question is how all those things net out.

The offensive piece is taken gospel but even that is questionable. The Bulls were a top 10 offense without Jordan. The Heat weren't even top 20 without LeBron. What happened to the Lakers' offense whenever LeBron left the floor? The Cavs were a joke whenever LeBron was out.

LeBron missed 8 games in a row in 15'. The Cavs averaged 90.6 PPG (the lowest scoring team in the league scored 95.5 that year, second lowest 99.9) and went 1-7. :lol For the season as a whole? They averaged 104.4 PPG in the other 74 games, and this includes a few (5) additional games LeBron missed. The Cavs' offense was so bad I had to check the numbers twice...I am sure Kyrie put up some good Sportscenter highlights in those games but 90.6 PPG doesn't cut it.

I have MJ ahead of LeBron too. I'm just against the mythology his stans push non-stop.