Anthony Davis vs Kevin Garnett vs Dirk Nowitzki

[329 Services]

Who do you take?

[scuzzy]

329 Sevices vs Coined vs Nike D'Antoni

[Lebron_James]

AD career is far from over. Between KG & Dirk, I take Dirk, 30 thousand plus points / Finals MVP etc.

As a Defender, I take KG over Dirk.

[Stanley Kobrick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJDNkVDGM_s

[Axe]

Darling?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRTJmy508i-316mFAwyQI8oAfujQQUd_8pTQQ&usqp=CAU

[SouBeachTalents]

Nike D'Antoni
Coined
329 services

[Overdrive]

Current Lebron/ Lakers wouldn't have won with any version of Dirk. KG maybe, but his scoring was too low even in outbursts and he brings redunancy elsewise.

Peak Lebron on the other hand with Dirk? Would be one of the greatest duos ever. In a tier with Magic/Kareem, MJ/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe. Absolutely great fit.

[tpols]

They're all unbelievable talents with their own strengths. Dirk the great offense and good defense. KG the great defense and good offense. AD great at both but to a slightly lesser degree respectively. It's literally a pure tie ability wise. Only circumstance can decide who wins.

[bobopenguin]

give lebron prime KG, then it's over.

[tpols]

give lebron prime KG, then it's over.

Imagine bron with 2011 dirk... they would've swept the heat. :lol

[LAmbruh]

Imagine bron with 2011 dirk... they would've swept the heat. :lol

didn't need that much to sweep Kobe :lol

[tpols]

didn't need that much to sweep Kobe :lol

but Imagine.

https://i.gifer.com/RjgB.gif

[FireDavidKahn]

Absolute peak Garnett is the best.

[ralph_i_el]

Absolute peak Garnett is the best.

Yeah. Plus he had a long post-peak run as a great player.

[ThatCoolKid]

Right now KG > Dirk > AD if we are talking all time ranking. But AD has chance to surpass both if he has more playoffs like the last one.

Pure talent wise I think it's close between KG and AD. Most are going to say KG was best, but AD is the more versatile player offensively and defensively which makes it very close. People will say AD didn't have the same team success as the number one option as KG, but he took a game off the KD Warriors as the #1 option. I think it's comparable to KG going to the WCF and taking 2 games off of the Lakers. Not like KG really had much team success outside of that year, although AD had better teams than KG in Minnesota. Overall, I think AD will end up the best player of these 3 down the line. Most people underestimate just how valuable AD is on defense - he is absolutely on KG's level defensively as he showed in these playoffs. And he has more pure scoring ability than KG.

Dirk is below these two in terms of peak abilities.

[PP34Deuce]

THIS IS TOUGH!

AD is the most talented overall. I still say Dirk is the best.

AD with 5-6 more years of high level play will go down as a better All time player than them both.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I will take Dirk as a franchise player, his 2011 run is something that the other two guys are not capable of.

As a sidekick I will take Kevin Garnett because he's like a tall Scottie Pippen.

Anthony Davis is the odd man out here.

[ThatCoolKid]

I will take Dirk as a franchise player, his 2011 run is something that the other two guys are not capable of.

As a sidekick I will take Kevin Garnett because he's like a tall Scottie Pippen.

Anthony Davis is the odd man out here.

Wow, you are truly an idiot.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wow, you are truly an idiot.

Go look at Garnett in playoffs, he scores like Pippen.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Anthony Davis shouldn't be in this discussion by the way. He's the biggest coward in NBA history. #1 pick that had to hop on the team with the player in #1 career playoff VORP/win shares hahahha that's worse then what Durant did.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wow, you are truly an idiot.

No, he's actually right on that one

[nayte]

I will take kg. This website is getting silly now.

[MadDog]

They're all on equal footing so it depends on who you surround them with. Dirk probably had the best playoff run though.

[tanibanana]

I am not hating on KG. But why do people ranking him over Dirk.

Put Dirk in KG's career, he would have won 2-3 rings.
Put KG in Dirk's career, he would not win any.
But that is just an opinion. So let's go factual.

Their H2H match-up and Playoff match pretty sums it perfectly.

[Shooter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJDNkVDGM_s

:lol :lol

[Shooter]

I am not hating on KG. But why do people ranking him over Dirk.

Put Dirk in KG's career, he would have won 2-3 rings.
Put KG in Dirk's career, he would not win any.
But that is just an opinion. So let's go factual.

Their H2H match-up and Playoff match pretty sums it perfectly.

I think KG's advantage on defense is bigger than Dirk's on offense.

Both have similarish careers though either way.

1 ring, 1 MVP guys with great longevity and tons of playoffs

[houston]

Dirk better for team impact than those two even though AD more talented.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF_ehaEogEY&ab_channel=NobodyTouchesMJ

Dirk Nowitzki game-winner vs Celtics (2012.01.11)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKiON_H9ra0&ab_channel=Benka

[jalbert009]

I am not hating on KG. But why do people ranking him over Dirk.

Put Dirk in KG's career, he would have won 2-3 rings.
Put KG in Dirk's career, he would not win any.
But that is just an opinion. So let's go factual.

Their H2H match-up and Playoff match pretty sums it perfectly.

KG Had one season in his Twolves days where he had some sort of talent on his team and he took that team to the WCF. Dirk was surounded by talent most of his career. I don't think the mavs were ever considered favourites to win a ring but they were always expected to make the playoffs and at least make the second round.

KGs stint in Boston 2008-11 was only time he had a championship calibre team and he was at the tail end of his prime then and not mention a career changing Injury in 2009. And again, KG didnt waste any time and took that team to the finals and won. I think he was robbed of the FMVP there but hey it is what it is.

[ArbitraryWater]

KG Had one season in his Twolves days where he had some sort of talent on his team and he took that team to the WCF. Dirk was surounded by talent most of his career. I don't think the mavs were ever considered favourites to win a ring but they were always expected to make the playoffs and at least make the second round.

KGs stint in Boston 2008-11 was only time he had a championship calibre team and he was at the tail end of his prime then and not mention a career changing Injury in 2009. And again, KG didnt waste any time and took that team to the finals and won. I think he was robbed of the FMVP there but hey it is what it is.

Quit playing.

Lotta wrongs in here

[Roundball_Rock]

10% for Davis. I thought he was KAJ? :confusedshrug:

[kawhileonard2]

Dirk won for a franchise that never won before and beat multiple elite players in the process.

[dankok8]

Davis doesn't have that longevity yet so he should be 3rd place here but I can make a great case that Davis right now is better than Dirk ever was. Davis has a massive edge over Dirk on defense that I would say he's a better player than Dirk. I mean you can't really say that peak Dirk is significantly better than Davis on offense after what we've seen Davis do in these playoffs and honestly throughout his playoff career.

[DMAVS41]

Davis doesn't have that longevity yet so he should be 3rd place here but I can make a great case that Davis right now is better than Dirk ever was. Davis has a massive edge over Dirk on defense that I would say he's a better player than Dirk. I mean you can't really say that peak Dirk is significantly better than Davis on offense after what we've seen Davis do in these playoffs and honestly throughout his playoff career.

Davis could end up being better than Dirk, but he's got to prove shit.

Dirk was carrying a franchise to 50 plus wins for a decade straight and carrying teams to finals and winning 60 plus at times with teams that were no better than the 18 Pels even without Cousins.

Great player, but you don't earn a spot higher than guys like Dirk for playing in super easy circumstances next to a better player.

[Gus Hemmingway]

Davis could end up being better than Dirk, but he's got to prove shit.

Dirk was carrying a franchise to 50 plus wins for a decade straight and carrying teams to finals and winning 60 plus at times with teams that were no better than the 18 Pels even without Cousins.

Great player, but you don't earn a spot higher than guys like Dirk for playing in super easy circumstances next to a better player.

Davis won this year with less help than many of Dirk’s teams (primarily Dirk’s 2003-2007 teams)

[DMAVS41]

Davis won this year with less help than many of Dirk’s teams (primarily Dirk’s 2003-2007 teams)

Yes, show me the teams Dirk had from 03-07 that were +7.7 points per 100 with him on the bench and had a top 5 player of all-time.

But, tell me more...

[FireDavidKahn]

I am not hating on KG. But why do people ranking him over Dirk.

Put Dirk in KG's career, he would have won 2-3 rings.
Put KG in Dirk's career, he would not win any.
But that is just an opinion. So let's go factual.

Their H2H match-up and Playoff match pretty sums it perfectly.

0 chance Dirk would ever have won a chip in Minny. Absolutely zero. People don't realize the crap he had to carry.

[DMAVS41]

0 chance Dirk would ever have won a chip in Minny. Absolutely zero. People don't realize the crap he had to carry.

This is true.

I don't think a player ever existed that would have won a title with any of KG's help in Minny.

[dankok8]

Davis could end up being better than Dirk, but he's got to prove shit.

Dirk was carrying a franchise to 50 plus wins for a decade straight and carrying teams to finals and winning 60 plus at times with teams that were no better than the 18 Pels even without Cousins.

Great player, but you don't earn a spot higher than guys like Dirk for playing in super easy circumstances next to a better player.

Lebron isn't in his prime anymore. Davis was arguably better than Lebron in these playoffs.

[FireDavidKahn]

AD career is far from over. Between KG & Dirk, I take Dirk, 30 thousand plus points / Finals MVP etc.

As a Defender, I take KG over Dirk.

Sure, Dirk > Garnett on offense.
Then compare how close Dirk's defense was to how close Garnett's offensive game was to Dirk's

Garnett >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk on defense.
Dirk >>> KG Strictly as a scorer.

[FireDavidKahn]

Lebron isn't in his prime anymore. Davis was arguably better than Lebron in these playoffs.

Not in the Finals though. LeBron was clearly the better player in the Finals.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron isn't in his prime anymore. Davis was arguably better than Lebron in these playoffs.

I disagree, but so what if Lebron isn't at his peak.

Current Lebron is way better than any player on those teams mentioned for Dirk. You guys would get laughed out of the room trying to convince someone that Lebron isn't more valuable than Jason Terry and Josh Howard or some nonsense you guys are on about.

Again, find me a Dirk team that destroyed opponents to the tune of +7.7 points per 100 for a season without him on the court like the Lakers did without Davis this year.

[dankok8]

I disagree, but so what if Lebron isn't at his peak.

Current Lebron is way better than any player on those teams mentioned for Dirk. You guys would get laughed out of the room trying to convince someone that Lebron isn't more valuable than Jason Terry and Josh Howard or some nonsense you guys are on about.

Again, find me a Dirk team that destroyed opponents to the tune of +7.7 points per 100 for a season without him on the court like the Lakers did without Davis this year.

That's a fair argument. Dirk did have a tougher path to his title but I'm still not convinced that Davis isn't better than him as a basketball player. Davis puts up comparable scoring numbers on high efficiency and is several tiers better as a defensive player. He's also put up great numbers with the Pelicans as well.

[AlternativeAcc.]

That's a fair argument. Dirk did have a tougher path to his title but I'm still not convinced that Davis isn't better than him as a basketball player. Davis puts up comparable scoring numbers on high efficiency and is several tiers better as a defensive player. He's also put up great numbers with the Pelicans as well.

You don't understand basketball if you think Davis is better than LeBron. You just simply don't.

LeBron is elite scorer, playmaker, defender, leader, and overall franchise lifter

You're retarded if you don't understand the impact difference. Casual fan.

[DMAVS41]

That's a fair argument. Dirk did have a tougher path to his title but I'm still not convinced that Davis isn't better than him as a basketball player. Davis puts up comparable scoring numbers on high efficiency and is several tiers better as a defensive player. He's also put up great numbers with the Pelicans as well.

Nobody should be convinced either way. Davis is still in the heart of his prime and has the tools to get even better....and he's already all-time great.

My only point is that you have to actually prove stuff. You don't judge players in a lab or in a vacuum. If Davis wants to go down as better than all but like 15 guys ever...he actually needs to do shit he hasn't done yet. Can he? I have no idea, but hopefully we find out.

I'm just saying his time on the Pels doesn't do a ton for him historically on this level. Yes, he put up great numbers, but why did they struggle so much in comparison. Honestly, you give prime Dirk some of those casts and they are winning 50 plus for sure and probably the 18 cast wins 60 plus based on what we know.

So I'd like to see Davis do a bit more than just bail on his franchise and win an easy ring before we have these conversations.

[dankok8]

You don't understand basketball if you think Davis is better than LeBron. You just simply don't.

LeBron is elite scorer, playmaker, defender, leader, and overall franchise lifter

You're retarded if you don't understand the impact difference. Casual fan.

I was actually watching these playoffs instead of reading boxscores. Davis was significantly better scoring the ball in the halfcourt and even more significantly better on the defensive end. Nobody rational would go far beyond saying there were 1a/1b. Being the MVP of the team which leans towards Lebron doesn't mean he's better. Kind of how Curry was the MVP of the Warriors but isn't really better than Durant.

[dankok8]

Nobody should be convinced either way. Davis is still in the heart of his prime and has the tools to get even better....and he's already all-time great.

My only point is that you have to actually prove stuff. You don't judge players in a lab or in a vacuum. If Davis wants to go down as better than all but like 15 guys ever...he actually needs to do shit he hasn't done yet. Can he? I have no idea, but hopefully we find out.

I'm just saying his time on the Pels doesn't do a ton for him historically on this level. Yes, he put up great numbers, but why did they struggle so much in comparison. Honestly, you give prime Dirk some of those casts and they are winning 50 plus for sure and probably the 18 cast wins 60 plus based on what we know.

So I'd like to see Davis do a bit more than just bail on his franchise and win an easy ring before we have these conversations.

2020 Davis is a better player than any version of Dirk to me. In the vacuum or in the lab or however you want to call it. Consistency matters when it comes to all time rankings but greatness doesn't always mean you're a better basketball player than those ranked lower.

[DMAVS41]

2020 Davis is a better player than any version of Dirk to me. In the vacuum or in the lab or however you want to call it. Consistency matters when it comes to all time rankings but greatness doesn't always mean you're a better basketball player than those ranked lower.

I don't think that is a crazy opinion or anything, but I think you are being influenced by circumstances too much if one were to hold that opinion.

Meaning, if that were truly the case...you'd expect Davis this year to lead a team like the 06 Mavs or 11 Mavs to the title as the clear cut best player...outdueling prime Duncan in a series...having a monster game 7 as the underdog just to get out of the 2nd round with Avery Johnson coaching...beating the Lakers/Thunder/Heat...en route to a title.

Could he do that? Yes, I think he's so good that he'd be capable.

But I'd like to see him actually do something more than win 48 games and lose in the 2nd round as the clear cut best player on a team before we start saying he's better than all but 15 or so guys all-time currently.

The performances both individually and team are a reflection of how good a player is at basketball. It isn't like Durant got better going to the Warriors. Maybe Davis got a little better this year learning from Lebron how to win...I'm open to that, but he hasn't proven enough yet. Being great at basketball is way more than just offense/defense combined playing ball in a gym. It is leadership, consistency, durability, coming through when it matters most...coachability...etc. I haven't ever seen much from Davis on that front in comparison to the best players ever.

Go back and look at the 06 Mavs for example. Coached by a guy that couldn't sniff a job in the NBA anymore...it isn't terrible help or anything, but it is nothing of note. Nobody on that team was as good of a player as Jrue Holiday, for example, not really close either...especially if you value defense the way you seem to. Dirk gets them to 60 wins, upsets the Spurs in round 2 (only player to beat the Spurs in that 3 year stretch) and then they make the finals.

And that result was a product of how good Dirk was. How easy he made the game on his teammates...and while not a great defender by any means...was able to play the most games and minutes on a team that finished right at the top 10 in defense despite not having a noteworthy defensive roster. Finished with the best offense in the league. Terry was a negative on defense. Howard was nothing special. Daniels and Stack were tough and pretty good, but nothing noteworthy. I could go on...

When guys do stuff like that...maybe we are missing parts of their true impact when supposedly better players never do the same.

[Mr. Woke]

KG, AD, then Dirk.

[Mr. Woke]

Nobody should be convinced either way. Davis is still in the heart of his prime and has the tools to get even better....and he's already all-time great.

My only point is that you have to actually prove stuff. You don't judge players in a lab or in a vacuum. If Davis wants to go down as better than all but like 15 guys ever...he actually needs to do shit he hasn't done yet. Can he? I have no idea, but hopefully we find out.

I'm just saying his time on the Pels doesn't do a ton for him historically on this level. Yes, he put up great numbers, but why did they struggle so much in comparison. Honestly, you give prime Dirk some of those casts and they are winning 50 plus for sure and probably the 18 cast wins 60 plus based on what we know.

So I'd like to see Davis do a bit more than just bail on his franchise and win an easy ring before we have these conversations.

Dirk had a better supporting cast in Dallas.

I am glad that AD left the Pelicans. They failed to give him the necessary supporting cast to win a championship. Being in LA is much better for him.

[Dagoods]

It depends on the other pieces.

[dankok8]

I don't think that is a crazy opinion or anything, but I think you are being influenced by circumstances too much if one were to hold that opinion.

Meaning, if that were truly the case...you'd expect Davis this year to lead a team like the 06 Mavs or 11 Mavs to the title as the clear cut best player...outdueling prime Duncan in a series...having a monster game 7 as the underdog just to get out of the 2nd round with Avery Johnson coaching...beating the Lakers/Thunder/Heat...en route to a title.

Could he do that? Yes, I think he's so good that he'd be capable.

But I'd like to see him actually do something more than win 48 games and lose in the 2nd round as the clear cut best player on a team before we start saying he's better than all but 15 or so guys all-time currently.

The performances both individually and team are a reflection of how good a player is at basketball. It isn't like Durant got better going to the Warriors. Maybe Davis got a little better this year learning from Lebron how to win...I'm open to that, but he hasn't proven enough yet. Being great at basketball is way more than just offense/defense combined playing ball in a gym. It is leadership, consistency, durability, coming through when it matters most...coachability...etc. I haven't ever seen much from Davis on that front in comparison to the best players ever.

Go back and look at the 06 Mavs for example. Coached by a guy that couldn't sniff a job in the NBA anymore...it isn't terrible help or anything, but it is nothing of note. Nobody on that team was as good of a player as Jrue Holiday, for example, not really close either...especially if you value defense the way you seem to. Dirk gets them to 60 wins, upsets the Spurs in round 2 (only player to beat the Spurs in that 3 year stretch) and then they make the finals.

And that result was a product of how good Dirk was. How easy he made the game on his teammates...and while not a great defender by any means...was able to play the most games and minutes on a team that finished right at the top 10 in defense despite not having a noteworthy defensive roster. Finished with the best offense in the league. Terry was a negative on defense. Howard was nothing special. Daniels and Stack were tough and pretty good, but nothing noteworthy. I could go on...

When guys do stuff like that...maybe we are missing parts of their true impact when supposedly better players never do the same.

The 2006 Mavs weren't nearly as bad as you claim IMO. Howard, Terry, Stack, Daniels, Harris were all scoring regularly in double digits. Diop was good defensively as was Howard. The team was extremely deep. Going into the Spurs series, the Mavs were slight underdogs but that series was hyped to be a great one. I remember it vividly to this day. It ended up being one of the best series ever played in all fairness. So fun to watch and so many momentum shifts. In the end, I wouldn't say that Dirk outplayed Duncan at all but I'd say the Mavs outplayed the Spurs. Avery Johnson was also considered an elite coach in those years. I'm really not sure why his NBA career hasn't blossomed.

You left out the embarrassing fashion in which Dirk lost in the 2006 Finals and then got upset in the 1st round the following year in 2007 with a 67-win team. He played very small in key moments in those series. Dirk is lucky to have played on that 2011 team or he might have nothing to show for in his entire career. Between some of his successes came a lot of bitter failures that I'm sure as Mavs fan you'd want to forget. The 2011 title is so tied with Dirk's legacy that people choose to ignore his entire career of failures before then.

Before coming to LA and during his Pelicans career, remember that Davis lost in the 1st and 2nd round to the dynasty Warriors which are considered some of the GOAT teams. And that Pelicans team in 2018 had Davis, Jrue, Rondo and Mirotic and then literally no other decent player on that roster. That's the best Davis has had to work with? You're really comparing that to older Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Terry, Peja, Deshawn, Barea...

EDIT: Honestly maybe the biggest argument against Davis is his health. He doesn't seem durable and seem to often get injured. Some people gloss over that but that's a big minus to me.

[DMAVS41]

The 2006 Mavs weren't nearly as bad as you claim IMO. Howard, Terry, Stack, Daniels, Harris were all scoring regularly in double digits. Diop was good defensively as was Howard. The team was extremely deep. Going into the Spurs series, the Mavs were slight underdogs but that series was hyped to be a great one. I remember it vividly to this day. It ended up being one of the best series ever played in all fairness. So fun to watch and so many momentum shifts. In the end, I wouldn't say that Dirk outplayed Duncan at all but I'd say the Mavs outplayed the Spurs. Avery Johnson was also considered an elite coach in those years. I'm really not sure why his NBA career hasn't blossomed.

You left out the embarrassing fashion in which Dirk lost in the 2006 Finals and then got upset in the 1st round the following year in 2007 with a 67-win team. He played very small in key moments in those series. Dirk is lucky to have played on that 2011 team or he might have nothing to show for in his entire career. Between some of his successes came a lot of bitter failures that I'm sure as Mavs fan you'd want to forget. The 2011 title is so tied with Dirk's legacy that people choose to ignore his entire career of failures before then.

Before coming to LA and during his Pelicans career, remember that Davis lost in the 1st and 2nd round to the dynasty Warriors which are considered some of the GOAT teams. And that Pelicans team in 2018 had Davis, Jrue, Rondo and Mirotic and then literally no other decent player on that roster. That's the best Davis has had to work with? You're really comparing that to older Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Terry, Peja, Deshawn, Barea...

EDIT: Honestly maybe the biggest argument against Davis is his health. He doesn't seem durable and seem to often get injured. Some people gloss over that but that's a big minus to me.

Left out?

He made the finals. He did something Davis hasn't come close to doing as the best player on a team. I didn't leave it out...it isn't relevant to the argument. I disagree about the 06 team completely. Again, Cousins and Jrue are better than any players on that team. Were they bad? No, but nothing of note.

Notice your framing. It is somehow embarrassing to make the finals as an underdog to get out of the 2nd round for Dirk without much of any historical championship level help...if that is true, then what do you call what AD accomplished on the Pels? Given that AD is better than Dirk ever was...I'd expect him to carry a team and so something more than he did.

Like I always say...a lot harder to be the man and carry the franchise than it is to have that burden lifted by a greater player.

Not sure what your point is about the 11 Mavs. I only brought them up to say that if Davis really was clearly better than Dirk...you'd expect Davis to win a title with similar help. Maybe he will someday...I don't know, but I don't think it would be expected for him to win a title in place of Giannis, for example.

And yes, durability and consistency matters.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk had a better supporting cast in Dallas.

I am glad that AD left the Pelicans. They failed to give him the necessary supporting cast to win a championship. Being in LA is much better for him.

Yes, Dirk did have better help in Dallas than AD had on the Pels.

Being in LA is much better for him, but players need to prove things before you get talked about like some are talking about AD...and winning a ring with arguably the best player ever isn't enough for me to put him on par with the best players of all-time given what I saw in New Orleans with him as the cornerstone.

[dankok8]

Left out?

He made the finals. He did something Davis hasn't come close to doing as the best player on a team. I didn't leave it out...it isn't relevant to the argument. I disagree about the 06 team completely. Again, Cousins and Jrue are better than any players on that team. Were they bad? No, but nothing of note.

Notice your framing. It is somehow embarrassing to make the finals as an underdog to get out of the 2nd round for Dirk without much of any historical championship level help...if that is true, then what do you call what AD accomplished on the Pels? Given that AD is better than Dirk ever was...I'd expect him to carry a team and so something more than he did.

Like I always say...a lot harder to be the man and carry the franchise than it is to have that burden lifted by a greater player.

Not sure what your point is about the 11 Mavs. I only brought them up to say that if Davis really was clearly better than Dirk...you'd expect Davis to win a title with similar help. Maybe he will someday...I don't know, but I don't think it would be expected for him to win a title in place of Giannis, for example.

And yes, durability and consistency matters.

Cousins was hurt and DNP in the playoffs. And you keep ignoring that Davis' Pels kept running into the GOAT Warriors. 2015-2019 Western Conference was a very difficult time to reach the Finals to say the least. Maybe the most difficult in NBA history considering the Warriors' level. Somehow you're not acknowledging this. Mid 00's on the other hand were a much weaker era with the Spurs getting older and Lakers in transition. Mavs also caught a break in 2006 that Amare got hurt for Phoenix. Not sure they would have beat a healthy Suns team to be honest.

You're also ignoring the years Dirk had a prime Nash and Finley alongside him along with a stacked team from 2001-2004. The only time he came close a title is 2003 but then he got hurt in the WCF's.


Yes, Dirk did have better help in Dallas than AD had on the Pels.

Being in LA is much better for him, but players need to prove things before you get talked about like some are talking about AD...and winning a ring with arguably the best player ever isn't enough for me to put him on par with the best players of all-time given what I saw in New Orleans with him as the cornerstone.

Why are you saying arguably best player ever? Lebron in 2020 is not playing like one of the best players ever. Career-wise he most certainly has a top 4 all time career but his level in 2020 definitely wasn't higher than other recent champs like KD in 2017 or 2018 and Kawhi in 2019.

[ThatCoolKid]

Cousins was hurt and DNP in the playoffs. And you keep ignoring that Davis' Pels kept running into the GOAT Warriors. 2015-2019 Western Conference was a very difficult time to reach the Finals to say the least. Maybe the most difficult in NBA history considering the Warriors' level. Somehow you're not acknowledging this. Mid 00's on the other hand were a much weaker era with the Spurs getting older and Lakers in transition. Mavs also caught a break in 2006 that Amare got hurt for Phoenix. Not sure they would have beat a healthy Suns team to be honest.

You're also ignoring the years Dirk had a prime Nash and Finley alongside him along with a stacked team from 2001-2004. The only time he came close a title is 2003 but then he got hurt in the WCF's.



Why are you saying arguably best player ever? Lebron in 2020 is not playing like one of the best players ever. Career-wise he most certainly has a top 4 all time career but his level in 2020 definitely wasn't higher than other recent champs like KD in 2017 or 2018 and Kawhi in 2019.

Lebron in 2020 is far superior to both KD in 2017/18 or Kawhi 2019. Put KD or Kawhi with AD on this Lakers team, they are not the 1 seed and they do not win a championship. Also, KD and Kawhi are both going to end up as top 20 GOAT candidates themselves, KD will likely end up in the top 10, so your point doesn't make any sense to begin with.

But otherwise I do think that AD will surpass Dirk on the all time list and I think peak AD > peak Dirk in terms of impact.

[DMAVS41]

Cousins was hurt and DNP in the playoffs. And you keep ignoring that Davis' Pels kept running into the GOAT Warriors. 2015-2019 Western Conference was a very difficult time to reach the Finals to say the least. Maybe the most difficult in NBA history considering the Warriors' level. Somehow you're not acknowledging this. Mid 00's on the other hand were a much weaker era with the Spurs getting older and Lakers in transition. Mavs also caught a break in 2006 that Amare got hurt for Phoenix. Not sure they would have beat a healthy Suns team to be honest.

You're also ignoring the years Dirk had a prime Nash and Finley alongside him along with a stacked team from 2001-2004. The only time he came close a title is 2003 but then he got hurt in the WCF's.



Why are you saying arguably best player ever? Lebron in 2020 is not playing like one of the best players ever. Career-wise he most certainly has a top 4 all time career but his level in 2020 definitely wasn't higher than other recent champs like KD in 2017 or 2018 and Kawhi in 2019.

Yes, I never said he played in the playoffs. I said Jrue and Cousins are better players than anyone on the 06 Mavs. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm simply saying that I need to see Davis take on the burden of being a franchise player and carry a team. I don't think that is unreasonable before I start agreeing he's better than some of the top players of all-time.

I'm not ignoring 01-04...I'm not bringing it up because in 03 Dirk had a lot of help...levels of help AD never had. Lets say Dirk won in 03 and didn't get hurt...I wouldn't be bringing that up against Davis as he never had an opportunity like that. So not sure your point here.

Lebron, even in his current form, is a level of player that is being under-rated if you can't understand how easy he makes things for his teammates. Again, the Lakers roasted teams by 7.7 points per 100 without Davis this year. Just stop it.

All I ask is that we tap the brakes on this stuff. If you want to argue Davis fits better next to a superstar like Lebron or as the 2nd best player that doesn't have to carry an offense...I'll listen because we have really good evidence of his play there. But if this is about championship first option, franchise player...carrying the burden for a team...I can't go there yet because we just haven't seen enough from Davis on that front.

[tpols]

The main thing that separates Dirk and AD as first options is Dirk was an elite orchestrator and better creator. He's like a super version of Jokic pretty much. AD is still one of the best players ever, but I would trust Dirk as first option more. This nonsense of name dropping demarcus cousins needs to stop though. He never played a single playoff game with AD and I've heard multiple posters name drop him like he was some help lol. That's not even considering how low IQ and bad defensively he was at his peak. The guy went from a max type to minimum once GM's finally wisened up to what he was.

[dankok8]

Yes, I never said he played in the playoffs. I said Jrue and Cousins are better players than anyone on the 06 Mavs. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm simply saying that I need to see Davis take on the burden of being a franchise player and carry a team. I don't think that is unreasonable before I start agreeing he's better than some of the top players of all-time.

I'm not ignoring 01-04...I'm not bringing it up because in 03 Dirk had a lot of help...levels of help AD never had. Lets say Dirk won in 03 and didn't get hurt...I wouldn't be bringing that up against Davis as he never had an opportunity like that. So not sure your point here.

Lebron, even in his current form, is a level of player that is being under-rated if you can't understand how easy he makes things for his teammates. Again, the Lakers roasted teams by 7.7 points per 100 without Davis this year. Just stop it.

All I ask is that we tap the brakes on this stuff. If you want to argue Davis fits better next to a superstar like Lebron or as the 2nd best player that doesn't have to carry an offense...I'll listen because we have really good evidence of his play there. But if this is about championship first option, franchise player...carrying the burden for a team...I can't go there yet because we just haven't seen enough from Davis on that front.

That +7.7 per 100 stat is from the regular season. In the playoffs the Lakers were at -5.7 per 100 without Davis on the floor.

Lebron
ON: +11.4 per 100 possessions
OFF: -3.9 per 100 possessions
ON - OFF: +15.3 per 100 possessions

Davis
ON: +11.7 per 100 possessions
OFF: -5.7 per 100 possessions
ON - OFF: + 17.4 per 100 possessions

And I mean that isn't surprising when you consider Davis' more efficient scoring and better defense.

About carrying the offense, Davis has been doing that. He put up 28 ppg on obscene efficiency in this postseason and up until Game 3 of the Finals it was he much more often than Lebron who was taking games over. He even hit game winners ala Dirk.

If the criteria is being a solo superstar does that mean Dirk was better than 2001 Kobe to because of Shaq? 1985 Kareem because of Magic? I don't think so. Davis can play with Lebron and still be better than a guy who led his team solo.

[DMAVS41]

That +7.7 per 100 stat is from the regular season. In the playoffs the Lakers were at -5.7 per 100 without Davis on the floor.

Lebron
ON: +11.4 per 100 possessions
OFF: -3.9 per 100 possessions
ON - OFF: +15.3 per 100 possessions

Davis
ON: +11.7 per 100 possessions
OFF: -5.7 per 100 possessions
ON - OFF: + 17.4 per 100 possessions

And I mean that isn't surprising when you consider Davis' more efficient scoring and better defense.

About carrying the offense, Davis has been doing that. He put up 28 ppg on obscene efficiency in this postseason and up until Game 3 of the Finals it was he much more often than Lebron who was taking games over. He even hit game winners ala Dirk.

If the criteria is being a solo superstar does that mean Dirk was better than 2001 Kobe to because of Shaq? 1985 Kareem because of Magic? I don't think so. Davis can play with Lebron and still be better than a guy who led his team solo.

Playoffs don't have a large enough sample to use on/off.

Of course Davis can be better and still play with Lebron. I'm not saying he absolutely can't...it is just that I need to see more than just this. It isn't enough....because when we've seen him be forced to be the guy carrying a team...we didn't see a guy that should be known as better than Dirk ever was.

When Lebron was carrying a franchise his first 7 years in Cleveland...playing with worse help than Davis...he actually did shit.

That is the difference...you aren't understanding the levels to this stuff.

To the "carrying the offense" comment...I'm realizing that you seem to look at stats only and think it is the same thing. It isn't...very clearly imo. Carrying the offense isn't just about how many points you score. This reminds me of you claiming that Duncan was better than Dirk on offense. You just aren't understanding true offensive impact if you actually think that.

[DMAVS41]

The main thing that separates Dirk and AD as first options is Dirk was an elite orchestrator and better creator. He's like a super version of Jokic pretty much. AD is still one of the best players ever, but I would trust Dirk as first option more. This nonsense of name dropping demarcus cousins needs to stop though. He never played a single playoff game with AD and I've heard multiple posters name drop him like he was some help lol. That's not even considering how low IQ and bad defensively he was at his peak. The guy went from a max type to minimum once GM's finally wisened up to what he was.

Cousins played 50 games iirc in 18 and played at an all-nba level imo. I never once said he played in the playoffs. I said he and Jrue were better than they are getting credit for. The Pels won 48 games.

[dankok8]

Playoffs don't have a large enough sample to use on/off.

Of course Davis can be better and still play with Lebron. I'm not saying he absolutely can't...it is just that I need to see more than just this. It isn't enough....because when we've seen him be forced to be the guy carrying a team...we didn't see a guy that should be known as better than Dirk ever was.

When Lebron was carrying a franchise his first 7 years in Cleveland...playing with worse help than Davis...he actually did shit.

That is the difference...you aren't understanding the levels to this stuff.

To the "carrying the offense" comment...I'm realizing that you seem to look at stats only and think it is the same thing. It isn't...very clearly imo. Carrying the offense isn't just about how many points you score. This reminds me of you claiming that Duncan was better than Dirk on offense. You just aren't understanding true offensive impact if you actually think that.

Agree that sample size is iffy but Davis upped his game in the playoffs. I don't need to use ON/OFF to tell that the Lakers were much better with Davis on the floor. And not just that. When the Lakers were in trouble, Davis would go on runs and score. He hit a game-winner against Denver that swung a 1-1 series to 2-0. Of course there are levels to things. I'm not giving Davis the edge over Dirk on offense. I agree Dirk is more proven as an offensive anchor. I mean we are comparing 12 quality seasons of Dirk to 3 seasons of Davis. It's the defensive gap that is just too huge to ignore as it is in the KG vs. Dirk comparison. Dirk has a bad shooting game and does very little for his team. Davis or KG can have a bad shooting night and still completely change the game.

I didn't say Duncan was better than Dirk on offense. I said he was close.

[DMAVS41]

Agree that sample size is iffy but Davis upped his game in the playoffs. I don't need to use ON/OFF to tell that the Lakers were much better with Davis on the floor. And not just that. When the Lakers were in trouble, Davis would go on runs and score. He hit a game-winner against Denver that swung a 1-1 series to 2-0. Of course there are levels to things. I'm not giving Davis the edge over Dirk on offense. I agree Dirk is more proven as an offensive anchor. I mean we are comparing 12 quality seasons of Dirk to 3 seasons of Davis. It's the defensive gap that is just too huge to ignore as it is in the KG vs. Dirk comparison. Dirk has a bad shooting game and does very little for his team. Davis or KG can have a bad shooting night and still completely change the game.

I didn't say Duncan was better than Dirk on offense. I said he was close.

Could be my fault, but we are talking past each other it seems.

In no way am I arguing that the Lakers were better without Davis or that he wasn't a beast this playoffs. I'm simply saying that you are undervaluing his help when you talk about his circumstances. Having a team with Lebron James that outscores opponents all year with you on the bench...is historical levels of help.

You seemed to not understand why Dirk was better than Duncan on offense when you asked the question.

Like I said earlier...you seem to be very narrow in your analysis on Dirk...and that is evidenced by the comment above you just made..."Dirk has a bad shooting game and he does very little for his team"

I think that is a gross misunderstanding of him as a player and the kind of value he brought. What I'm trying to get at is that you are missing a large part of his impact value if you think the only thing that made him valuable was making shots. That is why I keep bringing up team achievements with good, but not great help. Your opinion of Dirk is misguided if you actually believe the above. You are paying no service to how easy he makes the game offensively for his teammates and I think that, among other things, is a clear flaw in your analysis.

I'd encourage you to read this article as it gets at some of that value. At some point we have to start asking why a 35 year old past prime Dirk was able to get Monta Ellis and company to 50 wins and game 7 against the future champs...if he's just some one-dimensional player that only helps when making shots. Instead of over-rating the average help, maybe the missing piece is that he was just a bit better than most thought.

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

[FireDavidKahn]

Cousins was hurt and DNP in the playoffs. And you keep ignoring that Davis' Pels kept running into the GOAT Warriors. 2015-2019 Western Conference was a very difficult time to reach the Finals to say the least. Maybe the most difficult in NBA history considering the Warriors' level. Somehow you're not acknowledging this. Mid 00's on the other hand were a much weaker era with the Spurs getting older and Lakers in transition. Mavs also caught a break in 2006 that Amare got hurt for Phoenix. Not sure they would have beat a healthy Suns team to be honest.

You're also ignoring the years Dirk had a prime Nash and Finley alongside him along with a stacked team from 2001-2004. The only time he came close a title is 2003 but then he got hurt in the WCF's.



Why are you saying arguably best player ever? Lebron in 2020 is not playing like one of the best players ever. Career-wise he most certainly has a top 4 all time career but his level in 2020 definitely wasn't higher than other recent champs like KD in 2017 or 2018 and Kawhi in 2019.

2020 Finals LeBron: 30 ppg on 59%/42%/66.7%, 12 RPG, 8.5 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.5 bpg
2019 Finals Kawhi: 28.5 ppg on 43%/36%/91%, 10 rpg, 4 apg, 2 spg, 1 bpg
2018 Finals Durant: 29 ppg on 53%/41%/96%, 11 rpg, 7.5 apg, 1 spg, 2 bpg
2017 Finals Durant: No question better then 2020 Finals LeBron

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Dirk vs Davis is very debatable..

But, why must someone be some great floor raising 1st option to be considered better than another player? I think westbrook or rose are better floor-raisers of mediocre talent than Davis but I'd rather have Davis.

Being an all-time level complementary player ("2nd option") on offense and the best defensive player in the league is not necessarily worse than being a all-time first option and passable defensive player.

Davis vs Garnett is a bit more apples-to-apples. Davis is a better shot blocker (although Garnett's blocks underrate his rim protecting abilities) and better finisher around the rim. Garnett was a better overall defender (really saying something), passer, ball-handler and leader. I'd wager on him being a better 3 pt shooter too in today's era, given his proficiency on long twos and his ft%. I don't view either as guy's who are gonna carry an offense to championship level, but Garnett was a bit more suited to the role.

People forget young garnett would play the 3 and guard the opposing team's best perimeter player. Davis did that for a half against Butler and we were all rightfully amazed, but young Garnett would do that all the time.

I'd go

KG > Dirk~Davis

[DMAVS41]

Dirk vs Davis is very debatable..

But, why must someone be some great floor raising 1st option to be considered better than another player? I think westbrook or rose are better floor-raisers of mediocre talent than Davis but I'd rather have Davis.

Being an all-time level complementary player ("2nd option") on offense and the best defensive player in the league is not necessarily worse than being a all-time first option and passable defensive player.

Davis vs Garnett is a bit more apples-to-apples. Davis is a better shot blocker (although Garnett's blocks underrate his rim protecting abilities) and better finisher around the rim. Garnett was a better overall defender (really saying something), passer, ball-handler and leader. I'd wager on him being a better 3 pt shooter too in today's era, given his proficiency on long twos and his ft%. I don't view either as guy's who are gonna carry an offense to championship level, but Garnett was a bit more suited to the role.

People forget young garnett would play the 3 and guard the opposing team's best perimeter player. Davis did that for a half against Butler and we were all rightfully amazed, but young Garnett would do that all the time.

I'd go

KG > Dirk~Davis

I brought a version of this up earlier and I think that is a better debate to have.

However, I do think it gets a little tricky, especially in this case, because KG and Dirk are also the type of players that can fit into virtually any system and with most types of players...even players playing the same position.

I also don't think it is really about "floor raising"...although I completely agree with your point abour Rose/Russ vs Davis. Most of the players, if not all, at this level of all-time greatness are going to excel when playing next to other great players. I wouldn't ignore how guys perform in those circumstances at all...I think it all paints a picture of how good at basketball these guys ultimately are.

But I'm always going to give more credence to a player performing as the franchise player having to carry that burden than the guy being the complementary player....in large part because players as good as Dirk/KG/Davis have to get super lucky historically to ever play with better players to be that complimentary guy. Most of the time they are going to have to win as the best player on the team.

[dankok8]

Could be my fault, but we are talking past each other it seems.

In no way am I arguing that the Lakers were better without Davis or that he wasn't a beast this playoffs. I'm simply saying that you are undervaluing his help when you talk about his circumstances. Having a team with Lebron James that outscores opponents all year with you on the bench...is historical levels of help.

You seemed to not understand why Dirk was better than Duncan on offense when you asked the question.

Like I said earlier...you seem to be very narrow in your analysis on Dirk...and that is evidenced by the comment above you just made..."Dirk has a bad shooting game and he does very little for his team"

I think that is a gross misunderstanding of him as a player and the kind of value he brought. What I'm trying to get at is that you are missing a large part of his impact value if you think the only thing that made him valuable was making shots. That is why I keep bringing up team achievements with good, but not great help. Your opinion of Dirk is misguided if you actually believe the above. You are paying no service to how easy he makes the game offensively for his teammates and I think that, among other things, is a clear flaw in your analysis.

I'd encourage you to read this article as it gets at some of that value. At some point we have to start asking why a 35 year old past prime Dirk was able to get Monta Ellis and company to 50 wins and game 7 against the future champs...if he's just some one-dimensional player that only helps when making shots. Instead of over-rating the average help, maybe the missing piece is that he was just a bit better than most thought.

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

It's not your fault bud. You're one of the better posters here. I enjoy debating ball with you because you actually know what you're talking about.

Let me be clear. I'm not ranking Davis about Dirk on the all-time ranking now. I am just tempted to say he's better as a basketball player now than Dirk ever was. How much does that mean at the end of the day? Not that much because in NBA history there have been tons of guys who have peaked stupidly high for a few seasons... Bob McAdoo, Bill Walton, Bernard King, Tracy McGrady and they simply couldn't maintain it. If Davis starts getting hurt or stagnates and doesn't work on his game, he won't have a better career than Dirk.

Dirk doesn't do that much (never said not at all...) above a replacement level PF apart from his scoring. Sure he does give spacing to his teammates with his gravity but it all revolves around his ability to score. It's not really a slight on Dirk because scoring is critically important but I'm impartial towards bigs that are great on both ends of the floor which Dirk isn't. I just think a guy like Davis (and KG) has more impact in an average game because they can dramatically change the game on the other end of the floor.

[DMAVS41]

It's not your fault bud. You're one of the better posters here. I enjoy debating ball with you because you actually know what you're talking about.

Let me be clear. I'm not ranking Davis about Dirk on the all-time ranking now. I am just tempted to say he's better as a basketball player now than Dirk ever was. How much does that mean at the end of the day? Not that much because in NBA history there have been tons of guys who have peaked stupidly high for a few seasons... Bob McAdoo, Bill Walton, Bernard King, Tracy McGrady and they simply couldn't maintain it. If Davis starts getting hurt or stagnates and doesn't work on his game, he won't have a better career than Dirk.

Dirk doesn't do that much (never said not at all...) above a replacement level PF apart from his scoring. Sure he does give spacing to his teammates with his gravity but it all revolves around his ability to score. It's not really a slight on Dirk because scoring is critically important but I'm impartial towards bigs that are great on both ends of the floor which Dirk isn't. I just think a guy like Davis (and KG) has more impact in an average game because they can dramatically change the game on the other end of the floor.

I understand your argument, but I still think it is giving a little too much credit to Davis for his impact and not enough to Dirk.

You are right to say that Dirk doesn't dominate the boards (although he was a really good defensive rebounder actually) or command the paint like KG did or Davis does. They are great defenders while Dirk was merely average imo. I totally agree there.

Where we disagree...and where I think you miss Dirk's real value...is when you kind of shrug off his offense/scoring. It was all-time great and him just being out there creates a nightmare for the defense whether he's making shots that night or not. I can go on and on about gravity and detail things in that article I sent, but one can just say they disagree...or kind of give lip service to it like you just did above.

That is why I'm bringing up not only Dirk's level of play, but what he got out of his teams. So when you say Davis is currently better than Dirk ever was...my point is simply that maybe that is true, I don't think it is, but I'm open to it. However, I need to see more to conclude. I want to know why a 35 year-old Dirk was able to lead Monta Ellis and a rag-tag group to more wins than Davis ever has...and force a game 7 against the future champs. Why he was able to make finals and championship runs with Jason Terry as his 2nd guy and with historically weak championship level supporting casts against great competition. 50 wins plus for a decade with different coaches, different styles, and different players. Not once did prime Dirk ever had a team that outscored the opponent when he sat on the bench. In fact, for all but 1 year of his prime...his team had a negative differential without him.

You asked why I didn't bring up 03 and I explained why...because I thought that was legit help...better help than Davis ever had clearly. However, that team fell apart without Dirk all season. They were like -8 points per 100 without him and while Nash/Finley were good...they weren't worth as much as many think they were back then...especially Nash...he struggled in the more physical defensive rules.

If you take Dirk's help during his prime...it was by no means bad, but at the end of the day...they were roughly -4 points per 100 without him on the floor. Go back and look at the franchises that had decade plus runs like the Mavs. You will not find numbers like that, you'll find better teammates...all-nba and all-star teammates consistently....hell, Duncan (who I think was better mind you) saw his teams have a positive differential without him...his teammates were roughly 5 points better per 100 possessions over like 12 years than Dirk's were.

Take the Bucks currently. They are kind of similar to the Mavs after Nash left...or really from 04 on before Dirk declined. I mean, the Bucks are actually better built imo, but you get the point. Look at how hard it is to win for them. My point was not to say Davis has had that kind of help as the best player, I don't think he has. It is to ask you to reflect on Davis being in place of Giannis and what your actual expectations would be. Given what we've seen out him...are you arguing that he'd be making the finals and performing great as the clear leader and best player on that team? I don't know, I've always been pretty high on Davis, but it is hard for me to just give credit to someone for something like that without proving it.

Hopefully he gets a chance to prove it when Lebron actually declines or retires.

[dankok8]

@DMAVS41

Lebron has already declined more than people realize. He's probably 90% of the offensive player he was at his peak but 50% of the defensive player IMO. Davis carried the Lakers on defense in the postseason while being neck and neck with Lebron in offensive metrics. I don't think people realize just how good Davis was this postseason because people are enamored with Lebron talking about his leadership and legacy.

I honestly think Davis would have done a lot better than Giannis if he was with the Bucks. Of course I can't prove it. Giannis has clear weaknesses in his game like lack of shooting and it's evident in his playoff declines. Meanwhile Davis can work in the low post and go up with either hand, face up and go by people, finish strong, shoot the jumper over the defense up to the 3pt line...

There are levels to champions to be fair. 2014 Spurs were a very good team but the Warriors of 2018 are on a whole other level. One is a good run-of-the-mill title team and the other is a historical team. I think when we say that Davis lost in the 2nd round with the Pelicans we should take into account who he lost to and that the 2nd best player Cousins was out for the playoffs. Same with the 2015 Pels losing to the 2015 Warriors. It was a gross mismatch.

Everything you said about Dirk is fair. Dirk dragging the Mavs to that many 50-win seasons is definite proof that as you say he might be better than I give him credit for. Maybe I should rethink the way I judge Dirk because the results do speak for themselves. A lot of different teammates and coaches and Dirk still took them to 50 wins almost every year in his prime. However, I do think that his Dallas casts were still noticeably better than either Davis' Pelicans cast or KG's Wolves casts and thus we don't have a direct comparison. With Davis like I alluded to, we are also talking about a completely different era.

And I agree with what you said at the end. The real test for Davis will be as Lebron declines in subsequent years. One thing that worries me about Davis which I already mentioned and it is his health. He's had a few serious injuries already in his career. His back flares up which isn't a good sign. All the players that had back problems like Bird and TMac had pretty short careers. Hope it doesn't end up like that.

[NBASTATMAN]

Right now KG > Dirk > AD if we are talking all time ranking. But AD has chance to surpass both if he has more playoffs like the last one.

Pure talent wise I think it's close between KG and AD. Most are going to say KG was best, but AD is the more versatile player offensively and defensively which makes it very close. People will say AD didn't have the same team success as the number one option as KG, but he took a game off the KD Warriors as the #1 option. I think it's comparable to KG going to the WCF and taking 2 games off of the Lakers. Not like KG really had much team success outside of that year, although AD had better teams than KG in Minnesota. Overall, I think AD will end up the best player of these 3 down the line. Most people underestimate just how valuable AD is on defense - he is absolutely on KG's level defensively as he showed in these playoffs. And he has more pure scoring ability than KG.

Dirk is below these two in terms of peak abilities.

Only thing that AD lacks is passing.. He cant pass all that great out of doubles.. He also has problems with banging down low.. You cant really run an offense thru him but he is immensely talented

[DMAVS41]

@DMAVS41

Lebron has already declined more than people realize. He's probably 90% of the offensive player he was at his peak but 50% of the defensive player IMO. Davis carried the Lakers on defense in the postseason while being neck and neck with Lebron in offensive metrics. I don't think people realize just how good Davis was this postseason because people are enamored with Lebron talking about his leadership and legacy.

I honestly think Davis would have done a lot better than Giannis if he was with the Bucks. Of course I can't prove it. Giannis has clear weaknesses in his game like lack of shooting and it's evident in his playoff declines. Meanwhile Davis can work in the low post and go up with either hand, face up and go by people, finish strong, shoot the jumper over the defense up to the 3pt line...

There are levels to champions to be fair. 2014 Spurs were a very good team but the Warriors of 2018 are on a whole other level. One is a good run-of-the-mill title team and the other is a historical team. I think when we say that Davis lost in the 2nd round with the Pelicans we should take into account who he lost to and that the 2nd best player Cousins was out for the playoffs. Same with the 2015 Pels losing to the 2015 Warriors. It was a gross mismatch.

Everything you said about Dirk is fair. Dirk dragging the Mavs to that many 50-win seasons is definite proof that as you say he might be better than I give him credit for. Maybe I should rethink the way I judge Dirk because the results do speak for themselves. A lot of different teammates and coaches and Dirk still took them to 50 wins almost every year in his prime. However, I do think that his Dallas casts were still noticeably better than either Davis' Pelicans cast or KG's Wolves casts and thus we don't have a direct comparison. With Davis like I alluded to, we are also talking about a completely different era.

And I agree with what you said at the end. The real test for Davis will be as Lebron declines in subsequent years. One thing that worries me about Davis which I already mentioned and it is his health. He's had a few serious injuries already in his career. His back flares up which isn't a good sign. All the players that had back problems like Bird and TMac had pretty short careers. Hope it doesn't end up like that.

Of course Lebron is not at his peak and has declined a little. I'm not arguing he's at his peak. What seems to get lost is that 90% of his former self on offense is better than pretty much like 5 guys ever on offense. I disagree about your 50% on defense, but he's obviously worse now...although when he wants to...he still plays great defense in key situations as evidenced in the playoff run. Nothing to really debate here...current Lebron is an amazing player and accounts for historical help on his own.

I'm not sure about the Giannis vs Davis thing. I agree that Giannis has weaknesses, but I also think Davis has them. I'd worry about him having to generate offense for himself and others with a team like the Bucks. Also, a lot better? I mean...the Bucks led the league in wins back to back years.

I'm not arguing the 14 Spurs were the Warriors. I'm simply pointing out that at some point when q guy keeps getting teams over 50 wins with different coaches, players, and systems...and the help is good, but not great...maybe we should look more at the positive of what Dirk brings rather than what he's missing on paper.

Yes, I completely agree Davis and KG didn't have similar help. I'm not arguing that. KG played with absolute dogshit nearly his entire time in Minny. I personally think Jrue is better than Davis fans give him credit for, but I know there have been other factors. I do think we can get some information from how Davis performed as the franchise player though and while I wouldn't hold a ton against him because of tough circumstances...I also can't just give him credit for doing things I'm not sure he would do. It isn't even really a knock on Davis, but he's not Lebron/Shaq/Jordan/Kareem...etc....he's not so good that you really have no questions. I still have some questions I hope we ultimately get the answers to.

[Roundball_Rock]

Meaning, if that were truly the case...you'd expect Davis this year to lead a team like the 06 Mavs or 11 Mavs to the title as the clear cut best player...outdueling prime Duncan in a series...having a monster game 7 as the underdog just to get out of the 2nd round with Avery Johnson coaching...beating the Lakers/Thunder/Heat...en route to a title.

Could he do that? Yes, I think he's so good that he'd be capable.

But I'd like to see him actually do something more than win 48 games and lose in the 2nd round as the clear cut best player on a team before we start saying he's better than all but 15 or so guys all-time currently.


That is one thing lost in all the AD "Kareem" hype: what happened in his 7 seasons in New Orleans? They had losing records every year but two, they never cleared 50+ wins and they won a total of 1 playoff series. If he is KAJ 2.0 (i.e., a GOAT level player), and he had some talent around him, why were the team results non-existent?

[DMAVS41]

That is one thing lost in all the AD "Kareem" hype: what happened in his 7 seasons in New Orleans? They had losing records every year but two, they never cleared 50+ wins and they won a total of 1 playoff series. If he is KAJ 2.0 (i.e., a GOAT level player), and he had some talent around him, why were the team results non-existent?

He was never that level of player to date in his career and very few, if any, actually believe that...even if they say it.

He is, however, an all-time great 2nd guy on a title team....he's just not Kareem/Shaq/Jordan...etc. Obvious is obvious.

[MadDog]

He was never that level of player to date in his career and very few, if any, actually believe that...even if they say it.

He is, however, an all-time great 2nd guy on a title team....he's just not Kareem/Shaq/Jordan...etc. Obvious is obvious.

AD literally outscored and defended LeBron this entire playoff run. Name another alleged "2nd guy" who can claim that. I'll help you out: You can't. The only thing "obvious" here is you not knowing what you're talking about.

[DMAVS41]

AD literally outscored and defended LeBron this entire playoff run. Name another alleged "2nd guy" who can claim that. I'll help you out: You can't. The only thing "obvious" here is you not knowing what you're talking about.

So just to be clear.

You think that Anthony Davis should be thought of on par with Shaq/Kareem/Jordan...etc...when it comes to evaluating him as a player?

[MadDog]

So just to be clear.

You think that Anthony Davis should be thought of on par with Shaq/Kareem/Jordan...etc...when it comes to evaluating him as a player?

Still waiting for you to name that "2nd guy" :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Still waiting for you to name that "2nd guy" :confusedshrug:

I think 01 and 02 Kobe was a better player than Anthony Davis and I think you don't know much about basketball if you actually think Anthony Davis was more valuable than Lebron to the Lakers.

[MadDog]

I think 01 and 02 Kobe was a better player than Anthony Davis and I think you don't know much about basketball if you actually think Anthony Davis was more valuable than Lebron to the Lakers.

01 Kobe on offense is comparable but not on defense. 02? Thanks for the laugh :oldlol: Again you can't name a "2nd guy" who did both because one doesn't exist. At worst AD was a "co-alpha" on this Laker team. Period.

[DMAVS41]

01 Kobe on offense is comparable but not on defense. 02? Thanks for the laugh :oldlol: Again you can't name a "2nd guy" who did both because one doesn't exist. At worst AD was a "co-alpha" on this Laker team. Period.

When you say "did both"...you are acting like I claimed something in relation to that. I simply said what anyone with a brain knows....Lebron is a better and more valuable basketball player currently than Anthony Davis. You trying to frame it as something else is not interesting to me.

And, LOL...now Anthony Davis is clearly better than Kobe. Thanks for the laugh moron.

[MadDog]

When you say "did both"...you are acting like I claimed something in relation to that. I simply said what anyone with a brain knows....Lebron is a better and more valuable basketball player currently than Anthony Davis. You trying to frame it as something else is not interesting to me.

No "2nd guy" outscores and outdefends the #1. It didn't happen with Kobe/Shaq and its never happened in history, period. That's exactly why you cannot name another player :confusedshrug:


And, LOL...now Anthony Davis is clearly better than Kobe. Thanks for the laugh moron.

2020 AD is clearly better than 2002 Kobe. How is that some revelation? Are you retarded? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41;14171255]When you say "did both"...you are acting like I claimed something in relation to that. I simply said what anyone with a brain knows....Lebron is a better and more valuable basketball player currently than Anthony Davis. You trying to frame it as something else is not interesting to me.

No "2nd guy" outscores and outdefends the #1. It didn't happen with Kobe/Shaq and its never happened in history, period. That's exactly why you cannot name another player :confusedshrug:



2020 AD is clearly better than Kobe. How is that some revelation? Are yo retarded? :oldlol:

Go tell the Finals MVP voters that AD was more valuable than Lebron and watch yourself get laughed out of the room. Ask them to name a 2nd player...and they'll laugh at you again.

But thanks for your input...I'll make sure to note that Anthony Davis was clearly better than Kareem/Kobe/Magic...etc.

[tpols]

I think 01 and 02 Kobe was a better player than Anthony Davis and I think you don't know much about basketball if you actually think Anthony Davis was more valuable than Lebron to the Lakers.

The Lakers didn't even make the playoffs last year... that's how valuable Lebron is to the Lakers. And he was playing with a ton of young talent.

AD took them from lotto to championship.

[DMAVS41]

The Lakers didn't even make the playoffs last year... that's how valuable Lebron is to the Lakers. And he was playing with a ton of young talent.

AD took them from lotto to championship.

My bad, you are right...AD led teams had a lot of success prior to him coming to the Lakers.

[MadDog]

Go tell the Finals MVP voters that AD was more valuable than Lebron and watch yourself get laughed out of the room. Ask them to name a 2nd player...and they'll laugh at you again.

But thanks for your input...I'll make sure to note that Anthony Davis was clearly better than Kareem/Kobe/Magic...etc.

How was AD in 2020 not better than 2002 Kobe? You're talking about "value" but AD clearly had more on defense and probably just as much on offense. :confusedshrug: And who cares about narratives/hype. The facts are that AD outscored LeBron in the playoffs while also having MORE impact on defense. If you can't name another "2nd guy" who BOTH outscored and defended the #1 just say so. Jumping though hoops to get your point across is embarrassing.

[tpols]

2002 Kobe fell off big time compared to 2001... his splits show that very clearly. 106 ORTG... AD? 130.

130.

I know shit today is inflated but damn... that's just absurdly dominant scoring AND the man is a 7 foot defensive anchor.

[MadDog]

2002 Kobe fell off big time compared to 2001... his splits show that very clearly. 106 ORTG... AD? 130.

130.

I know shit today is inflated but damn... that's just absurdly dominant scoring AND the man is a 7 foot defensive anchor.

2001 Kobe is one thing. And I am willing to say Kobe was better on offense (not as much impact defensively, which again, is my point). Bringing up 2002 Kobe though is desperate and moronic.

[DMAVS41]

How was AD in 2020 not better than 2002 Kobe? You're talking about "value" but AD clearly had more on defense and probably just as much on offense. :confusedshrug: And who cares about narratives/hype. The facts are that AD outscored LeBron in the playoffs while also having MORE impact on defense. If you can't name another "2nd guy" who BOTH outscored and defended the #1 just say so. Jumping though hoops to get your point across is embarrassing.

I'm not talking about just a playoff run. I'm talking as a player. I'm not even a Kobe guy...and to call Anthony Davis clearly better than Kobe is so out of touch with reality...I just can't believe Kobe fans are actually signing off on it.

[MadDog]

I'm not talking about just a playoff run. I'm talking as a player. I'm not even a Kobe guy...and to call Anthony Davis clearly better than Kobe is so out of touch with reality...I just can't believe Kobe fans are actually signing off on it.

2020 AD was a better player than 2002 Kobe. How does saying that mean you have AD > Kobe overall? :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

2020 AD was a better player than 2002 Kobe. How does saying that mean you have AD > Kobe overall? :confusedshrug:

You don't get to frame something I said. You asked me what 2nd option I thought was better. And the player, overall, that Kobe was by the time of the 01 and 02 season. I wasn't talking about a specific playoff run or something comparing numbers.

Kobe, the basketball player, by that time...was better than Davis imo...

And, again, nobody with a brain thinks Davis was better than Lebron...nobody.

Just more over-rating of a guy like Durant that wins without having to carry a burden...and now he's Kareem. Just pathetic analysis.

[MadDog]

You don't get to frame something I said. You asked me what 2nd option I thought was better. And the player, overall, that Kobe was by the time of the 01 and 02 season. I wasn't talking about a specific playoff run or something comparing numbers.

Kobe, the basketball player, by that time...was better than Davis imo...

And, again, nobody with a brain thinks Davis was better than Lebron...nobody.

If you're going to quote me, do it correctly. I asked what "2nd guy" outscored and outdefended the teams #1. You claimed "Kobe" did, were wrong, and then pretended I said AD > Kobe overall. AD was the best player on this Lakers team, as per scoring and defense. Facts are facts.

[DMAVS41]

If you're going to quote me, do it correctly. I asked what "2nd guy" outscored and outdefended the teams #1. You claimed "Kobe" did, were wrong, and then pretended I said AD > Kobe overall. AD was the best player on the Lakers as per the scoring and defense. Facts are facts.

No, I didn't.

I ignored your question because I never claimed anything remotely like that...and answered what recent 2nd option I think was better...because that at least relates to what I wrote. I could have said Durant or Curry as well...because I think both of them are better players as well.

The stats don't mean anything to me and I already told you that. Maybe you should read.

Lebron is better than Davis...and we all know it. Why pretend otherwise?

[MadDog]

No, I didn't.

I ignored your question because I never claimed anything remotely like that...and answered what recent 2nd option I think was better...because that at least relates to what I wrote. I could have said Durant or Curry as well...because I think both of them are better players as well.

You didn't have to "claim" anything that I said. It was a question, not a statement. And you responded with "Kobe". Since we know its not Kobe, who else can claim that besides AD? More PPG and better defense than the alleged #1.

[quote]The stats don't mean anything to me

The stats don't mean "anything" to you but you're using stats in the thread :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41;14171290]No, I didn't.

I ignored your question because I never claimed anything remotely like that...and answered what recent 2nd option I think was better...because that at least relates to what I wrote. I could have said Durant or Curry as well...because I think both of them are better players as well.

You didn't have to "claim" anything that I said. It was a question, not a statement. And you responded with "Kobe". Since we know its not Kobe, who else can claim that besides AD? More PPG and better defense than the alleged #1.



The stats don't mean "anything" to you but you're using stats in the thread :confusedshrug:

The new posters here are just awful. You can't even ****ing read.

Won't respond again.

[MadDog]

The new posters here are just awful. You can't even ****ing read.

Won't respond again.

You're a fan of LeBron's and its perfectly fine that you think he is "better" than AD. Just dont use stats in the thread then ignore them here. Don't run away from questions that hurt your feelings either. :confusedshrug:

[kawhileonard2]

KG and Dirk beat Lebron head to head without HCA. Add Dwight Howard here and each of Dwight, KG, Dirk beat Lebron head to head without HCA.

[houston]

People underselling Dirk impact. Dirk never played with great wing scorers like Ray Allen or Paul Pierce. Even with Davis case had Lebron still playing All-NBA level. Dirk have a Finals MVP which Davis nor Garnett have. NBA media been waiting for AD to pop so he can get his MVP but we still waiting. Plus Giannis stole alot of his shine espec. how he turn Bucks around.