What’s the argument for Jordan over the following players?

[Gus Hemmingway]

Kareem, LeBron, Russell

Jordan can’t be higher than 4th all-time because he doesn’t have a legit case over Kareem, LeBron, or Bill Russell

[72-10]

I think I can reason with your argument for Kareem and Russell, but I'm not sure I get how a case could be made for LeBron.

[Gohan]

I can make an argument for iverson>>> lebron
Don’t test me:mad:

[TheCorporation]

There's an easy way to begin the framework for selecting the goat player. 1st one of the most important things is consistency, nobody cares about a short burst. An easy way to determine consistency is Finals appearances. Given the right people the perfect conditions for them and they might actually make a few finals here and there, But in order to be considered a consistent top tier player you need to make many Finals.

Everybody knows that making 7 Finals or more is very hard, but 10 finals is almost impossible. Winning 6 rings is also difficult but getting to 10 Finals is much harder. In fact only 3 people have ever done it. LeBron James, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Bill Russell. Therefore if you didnt make 10 Finals then you weren't a consistent competitor and you don't belong in the Goat discussion. People that make 10 finals show you that they don't need the perfect circumstance in order for them to thrive. Making 10 Finals shows you that under multiple different types of circumstances with multiple different types of players against multiple different types of opponents they are still able to achieve. Their success does not rely on one Hall of Fame head coach or just one specific number 2 option for every single finals appearance. They are there as consistent goats because they are skilled enough to achieve under a multitude of circumstances.

[HylianNightmare]

He isnt 4/10

[light]

Kareem, LeBron, Russell

Jordan can’t be higher than 4th all-time because he doesn’t have a legit case over Kareem, LeBron, or Bill Russell

That's a fair argument. Some may believe that and that's okay.

I know there are a bunch of older folk that never stopped believing that Kareem was the GOAT.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Doesn't have one.

Jordan barely has a case for top 10... a team winning 60 games without you is an obvious red flag that you're not a high impact player. Jordan wasn't high impact, and therfore isn't top 10

[Bronbron23]

Kareem, LeBron, Russell

Jordan can’t be higher than 4th all-time because he doesn’t have a legit case over Kareem, LeBron, or Bill Russell

Honestly you cant go wrong with any of them as your number 1. To answer the question he dosnt really have an argument over kareem or russell. Id say eye test but ive never really seen either play and They have as many or more chips and comparable stats and accolades. I dont think russell has the accolades mainly because things like fmvp weren't around then but he would most likely have similar accolades to mj and kareem. Bron is a different story. Mj has chips, accolades and eye test over him. Even stats is close. Its even if you go by per and bron is ahead if you go totals.

[ScottieQuitting]

Honestly you cant go wrong with any of them as your number 1To answer the question he dosnt really have an argument over kareem or russell. Id say eye test but ive never really seen either play and They have as many or more chips and comparable stats and accolades. I dont think russell has the accolades mainly because things like fmvp weren't around then but he would most likely have similar accolades to mj and kareem. Bron is a different story. Mj has chips, accolades and eye test over him. Even stats is close. Its even if you go by per and bron is ahead if you go totals.
Not true.

Kareem wasn’t the best player on the lion share of his championship winning teams. He played with Magic (top 5) and Oscar (top 15) to win. Scottie at best is Top 30.

Russell wasn’t the best player or even in some years close to the best player on both sides of the ball. Defense? Yes. Offense? No. Played with more HOFers too.

Mike was at worst 2nd defensively, and even that can be argued against.

[Axe]

Only fmvp from a 70-win team is kinda overrated

[Roundball_Rock]

Not true.

Kareem wasn’t the best player on the lion share of his championship winning teams. He played with Magic (top 5) and Oscar (top 15) to win. Scottie at best is Top 30.

Russell wasn’t the best player or even in some years close to the best player on both sides of the ball. Defense? Yes. Offense? No. Played with more HOFers too.

Mike was at worst 2nd defensively, and even that can be argued against.
In other words, Coach/SamuraiSwish has no case. You heard nothing of substance.

Coach/SamuraiSwish acting like the Milwaukee version of Oscar was top 15 all-time level. :lol

Kareem played against teams with more HOF (KAJ also had major injuries to key teammates in the playoffs during his prime--Jordan had none. Pippen/Grant/Rodman missed 0 playoff games during those finals runs); Jordan played with 2-3 HOF against teams that usually had 0-1. MJ fans pleading poverty of help, doe. :lol

[Bawkish]

Kareem, Russell & MJ all had one in common category: they build dynasties

[72-10]

Kareem, LeBron, Russell

Jordan can’t be higher than 4th all-time because he doesn’t have a legit case over Kareem, LeBron, or Bill Russell

I think of it as a three-factor rubric: success (wins and championships), statistics (production), skill

OK, Kareem won a bit more than Jordan (though it's very marginal) and his stats are kind of a tie, and Jordan has a lot more skill. Russell of course won quite a bit more times than Jordan, but his stats aren't as great, and Jordan has a lot more skill. LeBron, however, hasn't won as much as Jordan and his stats are kind of a tie, and Jordan has a lot more skill.

[72-10]

but I digress that there are a lot of different ways of looking at it

[Shooter]

Only fmvp from a 70-win team is kinda overrated

What about 73 win record setting team? And 1st ever unanimous MB P in league history. And being down 3-1, and leading every single player in every single statistical category?

[Micku]

It might be a bait thread, but it's cool.

With Russell: It was arguably whatever he was the best player in the league or just on the best team. Wilt was the one dominating the stats and seemingly the best player. But Russell either contributed more to the team or the team just had the talent enough to beat out all the other teams.

With Kareem: He won most of his rings with Magic. And while he probably was the best player in the early 80s and the only person who combat him in that title was probably Moses Malone, the mid 80s was it questionable whatever or not he was the best player on his own team. Maybe 1a, 1b. But Kareem was the cap. Bird was considered to be the best player in the mid 80s. While Kareem won his rings, he wasn't the best player in the league in some of them. Imo, his longevity is straight up amazing.

With LeBron: Other than Wilt, he is the one person to compete with MJ when it comes to advance stats other than maybe some single. With PER, Lebron has 2 PER seasons in the top 10. Wilt has 3. MJ has 3. Lebron James is right behind him in PER in career average. VORP, he is second place to MJ in a single season. Above him career, and MJ is right behind him. Many new players beat MJ's OBPM like Curry, James Harden, LeBron and T-Mac. But MJ has 3 of the highest OBPM in the top 10. LeBron has 3. In DBPM, MJ has him beat. MJ is one of the two guards in the top 10. Basically, every advance metric, LeBron is up there.

He shares things similar to Wilt in that he might be the best player, but he doesn't win as much. Of course context is needed with discussing this, but he never had a dominated stretch of winning like MJ did. He has the longevity going for him, so he's surpassing him in this category.

MJ: Not only was he the best player in the league while he was winning, he did it in a historic statistic measure. Some stats are still unbroken. Unlike Russell, there's no question he was the best player in the league. Unlike Wilt and LeBron, he won more and dominated his career in stats and winning the rings. 3peated twice. Unlike Kareem, there's no question he was the best player on his team and in the league.

It's hard to beat his resume in that regard. He not only dominated the stats, but dominated his era with team accomplishments. In terms of the best individual player, that's probably Wilt. In terms of the contributing to team accomplishments, that's probably Russell. You can argue Magic, Duncan, Bird or LeBron. But MJ is the mixture of all that with the results to show for it. However there's some context. Like the era he played is weaker in terms of teams in comparison to the 80s or 10s. And that's true imo. But that doesn't really change what he did.

He was dominating the 80s with his performance and didn't have the team. It was already consider to be the best individual player among guys like Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Barkely, Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Bernald King, Moses Malone (old), Kareem (old). You can argue that his impact didn't translate to wins. I feel like that's a valid point. However, I believe that changed in 88. You can say that's when he got Pippen, but Pippen wasn't the same Pippen in the 90s like how Kobe in 97 wasn't the same Kobe in 01. MJ carried that team in 88, and that's when he hit his historic statistical peak. And he carried the team in 89 that had no business winning over the Cavs. Averaging like 40, 6, and 8 on 52% shooting. And this was the 2nd best defensive team in the league. And MJ carried the team all the way to the ECF.

Ppl would sometimes say they don't think MJ would score as much or score more in this era. Who knows really, but it seems it's easier to score with perimeter players in this era. The rules soften up and the paint is more open. You can say with the stats too. Like MJ in 97 shot 51% at the rim. That's insanely low. Kobe, being the most compared to MJ, shot like 69% in both 12 and 13. And MJ, even at that old age, was still more athletic than Kobe was. Of course, Wizard old ass 40 year old MJ scoring like 22 or 20 ppg on inefficient shooting. He was doing better before he got injured.

I would say....in 88-93 MJ was arguably the best player in NBA history. The stats indicate this too. But, not say other players don't have great seasons. Curry in 16. LeBron in 09, 12, 13, 16, 18. Shaq 00-02. Bird 84-88. Magic from 87-90. Hakeem 94-95. Wilt his rookie year from 67 lol.

But no one had the combination of MJ of both offense, defense, and the wins. As said before, the stats indicate this too. He reached historic highs in those seasons and this was before advance stats was a thing. Stats don't mean everything of course. It just contributes to MJ's case that in 88-93, dude was a beast.

[Dagoods]

Russell wasn't even the best center of his era. We are talking about the Kevin Garnett of the 60s. A superb defender and leader at best. He's not a game winner.

Kareem? The Tim Duncan of the 70s-mid 80s. Superb skills and all, but he could not win without a true PG. First Oscar and then Magic.

LeBron? He's not as talented as Jordan. MJ was the better 2-way player. LeBron can't win without super teams.

[Kiddlovesnets]

6FMVPs.

[Dbrog]

Russell wasn't even the best center of his era. We are talking about the Kevin Garnett of the 60s. A superb defender and leader at best. He's not a game winner.

Kareem? The Tim Duncan of the 70s-mid 80s. Superb skills and all, but he could not win without a true PG. First Oscar and then Magic.

LeBron? He's not as talented as Jordan. MJ was the better 2-way player. LeBron can't win without super teams.

Did you really just compare Oscar and Magic to Tony Parker? :lol:roll::facepalm

[Dagoods]

No! I was only comparing Kareem and Duncan skills wise.

[RRR3]

I can make an argument for iverson>>> lebron
Don’t test me:mad:
No you can’t.

[Roundball_Rock]

With Kareem: He won most of his rings with Magic. And while he probably was the best player in the early 80s and the only person who combat him in that title was probably Moses Malone, the mid 80s was it questionable whatever or not he was the best player on his own team.

Yeah, that is always what we hear when it comes to MJ vs. KAJ--which speaks volumes. There really is no substance to it. That is how strong KAJ is as a GOAT candidate. The entire thing boils down to luck. Jordan had much better teammate injury luck than KAJ did in the 70's (we saw the 90's Bulls without their third best player Grant/Rodman in one playoff run: they lost in the second round) and KAJ got Oscar when Oscar was old and got Magic when he was old. If he had overlapping primes with either they would destroy the NBA.

KAJ was the best player for a full decade. Only LeBron rivals that reign. By the time he got Magic he was 32-33; by the time Magic became an all-NBA player KAJ was 34-35.

KAJ had only one all-NBA teammate his entire prime, Oscar in 71'.

[ImKobe]

Kareem, LeBron, Russell

Jordan can’t be higher than 4th all-time because he doesn’t have a legit case over Kareem, LeBron, or Bill Russell

Russell - 8 team league, never was a dominant scorer
Kareem - 6 titles & MVPS but wasn't the clear dominant figure in all the runs, he has the closest case to Jordan though
Lebron - losing Finals record, only 4 titles, bubble championship, 2011 Finals

[Gus Hemmingway]

Russell - 8 team league, never was a dominant scorer
Kareem - 6 titles & MVPS but wasn't the clear dominant figure in all the runs, he has the closest case to Jordan though
Lebron - losing Finals record, only 4 titles, bubble championship, 2011 Finals

Who’s your favorite player?

[Roundball_Rock]

Who’s your favorite player?

He is a Kobe/MJ stan hybrid motivated primarily by hatred of LeBron. He is a big 3ball disciple. He and tpols particularly just echo whatever 3ball says from thread to thread.

[ImKobe]

Who’s your favorite player?

Kobe's my favorite player obviously, but I do believe that MJ is the GOAT based on peak performance, impact and winning.

[ImKobe]

He is a Kobe/MJ stan hybrid motivated primarily by hatred of LeBron. He is a big 3ball disciple. He and tpols particularly just echo whatever 3ball says from thread to thread.

I was a Jordan fan first, Kobe was obviously Jordan 2.0 in a lot of ways and the best player post-MJ. The notion that I hate Lebron couldn't be further from the truth, I've given Lebron more respect than most people on ISH, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to nutride the trolls who are anti-anyone who doesn't proclaim James as the GOAT. He still has a chance of being the GOAT if he goes on a Brady-like run.

[Micku]

Yeah, that is always what we hear when it comes to MJ vs. KAJ--which speaks volumes. There really is no substance to it. That is how strong KAJ is as a GOAT candidate. The entire thing boils down to luck. Jordan had much better teammate injury luck than KAJ did in the 70's (we saw the 90's Bulls without their third best player Grant/Rodman in one playoff run: they lost in the second round) and KAJ got Oscar when Oscar was old and got Magic when he was old. If he had overlapping primes with either they would destroy the NBA.

KAJ was the best player for a full decade. Only LeBron rivals that reign. By the time he got Magic he was 32-33; by the time Magic became an all-NBA player KAJ was 34-35.

KAJ had only one all-NBA teammate his entire prime, Oscar in 71'.

Totally agree except for the substance part. There were even reports I think that was similar at the time I think that the players were wondering if they even needed Kareem with the Lakers. I think Pat Riley shut that down. Magic and Kareem were more like 1a and 1b for a while.

It is a bit of luck, and that is part of the game a bit. Because after that, you would go on what ifs. Like if Kareem were to have a good teammate he would rule the 70s. If MJ would've drafted by the Rockets, him and Hakeem were to rule the 80s and 90s. Etc, etc.

I think it depends on what you consider of value more. Peak/prime? Longevity? Accomplishments? I don't think there is a GOAT really. GOAT positions probably. But in the case of MJ, I feel like he has a mixture of all three when it comes to the GOAT argument. I think MJ fills that mold a bit more. Best stats even before advance stats was a thing, best player while winning, dominated the 90s. You can argue details of it bit just like you would with every player. You have players who had longevity. You had players who put up the best stats. You had players who won a lot. But I don't think there is player in NBA history that has the best mixture of that more so than MJ.

But I could argue in favor of Kareem too. In favor of Wilt, Magic, Lebron and Russell. It gets a little harder after that tho. You could still take yo shots.