Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 7 years

[3ball]

And you think he's messing with MJ?.. :whatever:

[scuzzy]

No surprise


Guard position in the 90's were as brittle as Reggie Millers arms


Compare that to the Forwards of today, 10-15 all-stars deep that can actually play both ways


You really don't want to go list for list in this category :oldlol:

[Gus Hemmingway]

So? MJ hasnt been All-Defense in 22 years :confusedshrug:

[BigtimeNBAFan]

No surprise


Guard position was in the 90's was as brittle as Reggie Millers arms and only one way players


Now compare that to the Forwards of today, 10-15 all-stars deep that can actually play both ways

The fact that anorexic 10 year old girl body Reggie Miller was Jordan's big competition in the 90's is a big strike against Jordan.

[GrayGoat]

So? MJ hasnt been All-Defense in 22 years :confusedshrug:

Gotem

[3ball]

The fact that anorexic 10 year old girl body Reggie Miller was Jordan's big competition in the 90's is a big strike against Jordan.

A 6'7" Curry except Miller could average a lot more ppg at only 5 threes per game - Curry was a 19 ppg scorer for three straight years when he took 5 threes a game, and only increased his ppg when the league offensive strategy became a 3-pt contest, which caused his volume to skyrocket

Miller would see a similar increase in this era of threes.. he would take 11 per game or more.. the spacing would make his head fakes the deadliest in the game on the catch (defenders desperate and late getting to him)

[LAmbruh]

The fact that there was 5 guys in their mid-30's making All-Defensive teams in 1998 reminds us all how weak that era was



Out of the 10 players from 1st and 2nd team, only two were champions (Scottie, Ordan) :oldlol:

[3ball]

In prior eras, it was harder for perimeter players to get defensive recognition because the offense occurred inside where bigs got the credit.

Otoh, today's offensive possessions occur on the perimeter, so perimeter players are recognized much easier.. guys that are recognized for defense today might've been unheard of in prior eras.

DPOY Jordan would average 6 steals per game in today's era of perimeter possessions

And of course great athletes like Augmon, Lewis, Drexler, Finley, Elliot, Kemp - anyone of them could turn out to be great defenders in today's high pnr game

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol at MJ stans trying to make Miller into Curry. Curry is a 2x MVP. Miller wasn't better than MJ, Drexler, Richmond, and Dumars at SG in his own era when all were in their primes. He was 5th best at his position.

Reggie Miller was Klay without the defense. Klay isn't Curry.


Jordan would average 6 steals per game in today's era of perimeter possessions

Double the steals and I am sure double the points. MJ averaging 70+ today, right, right?

[3ball]

:lol at MJ stans trying to make Miller into Curry. Curry is a 2x MVP. Miller wasn't better than MJ, Drexler, Richmond, and Dumars at SG in his own era when all were in their primes. He was 5th best at his position.

Reggie Miller was Klay without the defense. Klay isn't Curry.



Double the steals and I am sure double the points. MJ averaging 70+ today, right, right?

Dumbass - Curry wasn't shit before today's 3-point offense took hold - he was a 19 ppg scorer for three straight years at 5 threes a game, and only increased his ppg when the league offensive strategy became a 3-pt contest (which caused his volume to skyrocket)

Miller would see a similar increase in this era of threes.. he would take 11 per game or more.. the spacing would make his head fakes the deadliest in the game on the catch (defenders desperate and late getting to him)

[BigtimeNBAFan]

:lol at MJ stans trying to make Miller into Curry. Curry is a 2x MVP. Miller wasn't better than MJ, Drexler, Richmond, and Dumars at SG in his own era when all were in their primes. He was 5th best at his position.

Reggie Miller was Klay without the defense. Klay isn't Curry.



Double the steals and I am sure double the points. MJ averaging 70+ today, right, right?

Yeah that was a crazy clapback. The truth is Miller has nothing on Curry. Curry is a 2x MVP who actually won titles and was actually a superstar 3 point shooter. Reggie Miller's best 3 point season was he made 229. To put that in perspective Steph Curry has 5 of the top 10 3 point shooting seasons in nba history and they were all more than Miller's best season.

[And1AllDay]

No surprise


Guard position in the 90's were as brittle as Reggie Millers arms


Compare that to the Forwards of today, 10-15 all-stars deep that can actually play both ways


You really don't want to go list for list in this category :oldlol:

:oldlol: :oldlol:

op shoook

[BigtimeNBAFan]

Dumbass - Curry wasn't shit before today's 3-point offense took hold - he was a 19 ppg scorer for three straight years at 5 threes a game, and only increased his ppg when the league offensive strategy became a 3-pt contest (which caused his volume to skyrocket)

Miller would see a similar increase in this era of threes.. he would take 11 per game or more.. the spacing would make his head fakes the deadliest in the game on the catch (defenders desperate and late getting to him)

No he wouldn't. He is not in Curry's league. Sorry the 90's were crap. Pretty embarrassing for Jordan. There are Jr high girls with anorexia that have bigger muscles than Reggie Miller.

[And1AllDay]

In prior eras, it was harder for perimeter players to get defensive recognition because the offense occurred inside where bigs got the credit.

Otoh, today's offensive possessions occur on the perimeter, so perimeter players are recognized much easier.. guys that are recognized for defense today might've been unheard of in prior eras.

DPOY Jordan would average 6 steals per game in today's era of perimeter possessions

And of course great athletes like Augmon, Lewis, Drexler, Finley, Elliot, Kemp - anyone of them could turn out to be great defenders in today's high pnr game

mike was averaging his steals against

craig ehlo
john starks
jeff hornacek
mitch richmond

he isnt getting those steals on modern era sg sorry bruh :oldlol: :roll:

[And1AllDay]

No he wouldn't. He is not in Curry's league. Sorry the 90's were crap. Pretty embarrassing for Jordan. There are Jr high girls with anorexia that have bigger muscles than Reggie Miller.

think about this

jimmy butler, a player that is probably top...? 15 in this era we can say? put up better finals performance then any player mike faced in 6 finals

a top 15 player in 2020 would be top 2 in the 90s

[And1AllDay]

bran was rim protector fmvp for two full playoff runs of defrtg 100 and below

mike never did this :( he never had the defense impact like bran

and bran is the playoff steals leader and mike is #3 behind his own teammate pip :oldlol:

your done

[Bawkish]

LOL at Branstans got triggered so easily by this thread

like a couple of hoes defending their mamasan :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi already tied him with 6 defensive all teams. Next season Kawhi will pass him I'm sure. By the end of their careers, kawhi will double the amount of LeBron's all nba defense teams, as well as win more finals MVPS.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kawhi already tied him with 6 defensive all teams. Next season Kawhi will pass him I'm sure. By the end of their careers, kawhi will double the amount of LeBron's all nba defense teams, as well as win more finals MVPS.
He's gotta hold onto 3-1 leads against 7'1 Windhorst first

[SouBeachTalents]

A 6'7" Curry except Miller could average a lot more ppg at only 5 threes per game - Curry was a 19 ppg scorer for three straight years when he took 5 threes a game, and only increased his ppg when the league offensive strategy became a 3-pt contest, which caused his volume to skyrocket

Miller would see a similar increase in this era of threes.. he would take 11 per game or more.. the spacing would make his head fakes the deadliest in the game on the catch (defenders desperate and late getting to him)
Reggie didn't make an All-NBA 2nd Team or finish top 10 in MVP voting a single time in his year entire 18 year career

[And1AllDay]

Reggie didn't make an All-NBA 2nd Team or finish top 10 in MVP voting a single time in his year entire 18 year career

That boi SouBeach is COOOKIN!!

[3ball]

Reggie didn't make an All-NBA 2nd Team or finish top 10 in MVP voting a single time in his year entire 18 year career

It was a big.man league and offense back then... whereas today's league is built for him

He already averaged 24 for his playoff career... That equals 35 in today's regular season

[TheGoatest]

Here's a list of the best defensive forwards LeBron had to compete with for spots on the all-defensive teams while he was in the league:

Duncan
Garnett
Kawhi
Giannis
Anthony Davis
Ron Artest
Bruce Bowen
Andre Iguodala
Draymond Green
Paul George
Jimmy Butler
Shane Battier
Andrei Kirilenko
Tayshaun Prince

And this is only counting the players who were exclusively Fs and not C/F hybrids like Ben Wallace and Marcus Camby.

Now compare that to the list of the best defensive guards Jordan had to compete with during his years in the league:

Gary Payton
Joe Dumars
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Cooper
Maurice Cheeks
Dennis Johnson
John Stockton
Mookie Blaylock
Alvin Robertson
Derek Harper
Fat Lever
Micheal Williams
Nate McMillan
Eddie Jones

One of these lists has 3-4 guys who will instantly get mentioned on a list of the greatest defenders ever, and probably even more as time goes on.
The other list has Gary Payton.

[3ball]

No he wouldn't. He is not in Curry's league. Sorry the 90's were crap. Pretty embarrassing for Jordan. There are Jr high girls with anorexia that have bigger muscles than Reggie Miller.

Miller is a top shooter like Curry is except he's 5 inches taller with a pure scoring mid-range game.. he'd be fine without a 3-pt line, while curry probably wouldn't have even played

[3ball]

Here's a list of the best defensive forwards LeBron had to compete with for spots on the all-defensive teams while he was in the league:

Duncan
Garnett
Kawhi
Giannis
Anthony Davis
Ron Artest
Bruce Bowen
Andre Iguodala
Draymond Green
Paul George
Jimmy Butler
Shane Battier
Andrei Kirilenko
Tayshaun Prince

And this is only counting the players who were exclusively Fs and not C/F hybrids like Ben Wallace and Marcus Camby.

Now compare that to the list of the best defensive guards Jordan had to compete with during his years in the league:

Gary Payton
Joe Dumars
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Cooper
Maurice Cheeks
Dennis Johnson
John Stockton
Mookie Blaylock
Alvin Robertson
Derek Harper
Fat Lever
Micheal Williams
Nate McMillan
Eddie Jones

One of these lists has 3-4 guys who will instantly get mentioned on a list of the greatest defenders ever, and probably even more as time goes on.
The other list has Gary Payton.

Jordan was guarded by Rodman, Mickey, Mason, X-man, Augmon, Lewis, D Robinson, Drexler, Dominique, Kersey, Nance, Kemp, Hill, Penny, Finley, Kobe (98'), Duncan/Garnett (97' and 98'),

and neither list has anyone regarded as the goat defender, except maybe rodman or Robinson

[3ball]

.
BEST PLAYERS THAT BOTH MJ AND LEBRON FACED


1) SHAQ



Top Lebron moments:



2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left - during those years, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting (2004 and 2005), and lost the conference to him (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.




Top Jordan moments:



Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif).




2. KOBE:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.




Top Jordan moments:



- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2015/Q3fm0o.gif)

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&t=0m16s)).




3. DUNCAN



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif))... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here (https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif)..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).




4. GARNETT:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got his **** pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2015/q8-1iR.gif)) and during the regular season (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/6agjm-.gif), here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/EfFINb.gif) and here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/Jp9ACT.gif)).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0).




5. SHAWN MARION:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.




Top Jordan moments:



- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m09s)), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)).




6. 2003-2004 seasons



JORDAN 2003: 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
LEBRON 2004: 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg

[SouBeachTalents]

.
BEST PLAYERS THAT BOTH MJ AND LEBRON FACED


1) SHAQ



Top Lebron moments:



2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left - during those years, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting (2004 and 2005), and lost the conference to him (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.




Top Jordan moments:



Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif).




2. KOBE:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.




Top Jordan moments:



- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2015/Q3fm0o.gif)

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&t=0m16s)).




3. DUNCAN



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif))... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here (https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif)..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).




4. GARNETT:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got his **** pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2015/q8-1iR.gif)) and during the regular season (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/6agjm-.gif), here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/EfFINb.gif) and here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/Jp9ACT.gif)).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0).




5. SHAWN MARION:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.




Top Jordan moments:



- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m09s)), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)).




6. 2003-2004 seasons



JORDAN 2003: 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
LEBRON 2004: 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg
I don't think you know what top moment means

[Bush4Ever]

All-Defensive teams is a silly way to evaluate defense.

You need to study tape and possession-data to get an accurate read on individual and team defense in combination. There simply isn't a quick-and-dirty way to evaluate defense.

All-Defensive teams generally pluck out the super-obvious choices, but also include players who float by on reputation (most of Kobe's defensive awards fall in this bucket).

[SouBeachTalents]

Speaking of all-defense, Pippen has more selections than Jordan does

[light]

And you think he's messing with MJ?.. :whatever:

He stopped being selected the year they switched the voting from the coaches to the media.

There were back-to-back seasons where the Defensive Player of the Year (voted by the media) didnt make First Team All-Defensive (voted by coaches).

In those seasons LeBron James received the most First Team All-Defensive votes from the coaches - LeBron was the coaches choice for Defensive Player of the Year - but the media chose Tyson Chandler and Marc Gasol as the Defensive Players of the Year. LeBron was First Team both seasons while Chandler and Gasol were 2nd team.

The NBA's "solution" to this was to remove the coaches from voting and have it all done by the media.

The last time the coaches voted was the last time LeBron made First Team All-Defensive.

If the coaches were still voting Bron would be making more teams.

But LeBron has been getting DPOY votes during the last 7 years and everyone knows he can turn into the best defensive player in the game on command. We saw it several times this year versus Giannis. Kawhi and Murray.

It's not a coincidence that the greatest play of LeBron's career was a defensive play and that the greatest block in Finals history was from him.

[TheGoatest]

Exactly. And to think that some LeBron haters think that LeBron is only a name because of the media. They should thank their lucky stars that the media is voting for the awards, because if it was the coaches who were voting, then he would have multiple DPOYs and several more MVPs. And this is no exaggeration.

There may be some objective people in the media, but there are some serious LeBron haters. I mean, people who hate the ground that LeBron walks on. If LeBron's name was the only one on the ballot for an award, they would vote blank.

[light]

I would argue that LeBron right now is a better defender than Jordan was at any point in his career.

Think about all of the players Michael Jordan had to defend throughout his entire career - Joe Dumars, John Starks, Craig Ehlo, etc. 2020 LeBron James can defend all of them just as well as Jordan, if not better.

But what makes LeBron clearly superior are two additional things that Jordan didn't do:

1) LeBron can defend centers and power forwards at a high level.


LeBron can actually defend heavy centers better than Anthony Davis because he has a stronger base (Bron is unusually strong in general).

Jordan was so much smaller and weaker that he couldn’t seriously consider doing anything in the frontcourt.

2) LeBron is also his team's defensive quarterback.


Scottie Pippen was the Chicago Bulls defensive quarterback, not Michael Jordan.

LeBron has been the defensive quarterback on all of his teams since 2008.

So it’s the same old story: LeBron can do everything on defense and Jordan couldn’t.

[Bronbron23]

And you think he's messing with MJ?.. :whatever:

Mj was the better defender because he was way more consistent. He rarely took plays off. When lebron is engaged and locked in he's as good as mj imo. He's just not engaged defensively as much as he could be. I think stamina could be part of the reason why. He dosn't have mj's stamina to go all out on both ends all the time. Mj's stamina was insane.

[8Ball]

Everytime 3ball makes a thread he gets curb stomped.

Jordan couldn't make 13 all-nba first teams? No comparison.

[8Ball]

Reggie didn't make an All-NBA 2nd Team or finish top 10 in MVP voting a single time in his year entire 18 year career

Lol Jordan's best competition in the east is a discount Klay.

[8Ball]

Miller is a top shooter like Curry is except he's 5 inches taller with a pure scoring mid-range game.. he'd be fine without a 3-pt line, while curry probably wouldn't have even played

Reggie Miller. Zero all nba 1st or 2nd. Zero all defense.

Klay Thompson >>>> Reggie Miller.

Is this the best Jordan went up against in the East.

The toughest team Jordan said he played were the Pacers in the East. A team with not even Paul George level talent on it.

[Bronbron23]

Reggie Miller. Zero all nba 1st or 2nd. Zero all defense.

Klay Thompson >>>> Reggie Miller.

Is this the best Jordan went up against in the East.

The toughest team Jordan said he played were the Pacers in the East. A team with not even Paul George level talent on it.

Reggie miller is better than pg. Pg looks good and has all the skill sets but he's not a winner

[8Ball]

And Reggie Miller won what exactly?

Zero all nba 1st teams. Zero all defense.

Zero rings.

Paul George > Reggie Miller.

The discount Klay is the best Jordan faced in entire 90s East?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He's gotta hold onto 3-1 leads against 7'1 Windhorst first

He held onto leads against LeBron, Durant, Curry, Giannis, Harden AKA every great player of his era. Bubble ball doesn't count.

[GrayGoat]

No Pip?

[Roundball_Rock]

We know what Miller would be in today's NBA. His name is Klay Thompson, who is Miller except he plays defense too.


Yeah that was a crazy clapback. The truth is Miller has nothing on Curry. Curry is a 2x MVP who actually won titles and was actually a superstar 3 point shooter. Reggie Miller's best 3 point season was he made 229. To put that in perspective Steph Curry has 5 of the top 10 3 point shooting seasons in nba history and they were all more than Miller's best season.

Yup. It also is funny they will hype every star MJ played against and then diminish Pippen, whose peak and prime blow Miller's away. :lol


Reggie didn't make an All-NBA 2nd Team or finish top 10 in MVP voting a single time in his year entire 18 year career

Yup--guys like Richmond, Dumars did it at SG in his own era but he couldn't. Moreover, he was a 1x all-star through 7 seasons before Spike Lee made him famous. I am not aware of any other player who magically became a perennial all-star at 29 years old...

The other thing is when Miller got MVP votes he tied his teammates each year (Smits in 98', Rose in 00')--presumably a 5th place vote or two. So he wasn't even #1 on his own team in those cases.


And Reggie Miller won what exactly?

Nothing. Even his documentary "Winning Time" ends with the Pacers losing. :lol

[Shooter]

I would argue that LeBron right now is a better defender than Jordan was at any point in his career.

Think about all of the players Michael Jordan had to defend throughout his entire career - Joe Dumars, John Starks, Craig Ehlo, etc. 2020 LeBron James can defend all of them just as well as Jordan, if not better.

But what makes LeBron clearly superior are two additional things that Jordan didn't do:

1) LeBron can defend centers and power forwards at a high level.


LeBron can actually defend heavy centers better than Anthony Davis because he has a stronger base (Bron is unusually strong in general).

Jordan was so much smaller and weaker that he couldn’t seriously consider doing anything in the frontcourt.

2) LeBron is also his team's defensive quarterback.


Scottie Pippen was the Chicago Bulls defensive quarterback, not Michael Jordan.

LeBron has been the defensive quarterback on all of his teams since 2008.

So it’s the same old story: LeBron can do everything on defense and Jordan couldn’t.

Goodnesa Gracious

R.I P. op's agenda

[Shooter]

No Pip?

NO Chip

Simple as that

0/5 without Pip

[Bronbron23]

And Reggie Miller won what exactly?

Zero all nba 1st teams. Zero all defense.

Zero rings.

Paul George > Reggie Miller.

The discount Klay is the best Jordan faced in entire 90s East?

Well he went further than pg which according to bron stans means alot. He's just a better competitor. He also is the goat off ball mover.

And its not like he's way better buy he's definitely better.

[GrayGoat]

NO Chip

Simple as that

0/5 without Pip

Bingo. Op is the reason MJ has to come out with a new documentary every 3 months. Literally dragging his name thru mud

[Manny98]

LeBron has more top 2 DPOY finishes than Jordan

[8Ball]

Sorry.

Anyone that ever muttered "3-6" has ZERO right to say anything about Reggie Miller. Who is 0-1 in the finals.

Paul George = All NBA team 5x, All defence 4x

Reggier Miller = All NBA 3rd team 3x.

Reggie Miller Career 18-3-3
Paul George Career 20-7-4

Jimmy Butler is also better than Reggie Miller.

[red1]

3ball maybe you're right and maybe mj is >>>>>>> every other player like you claim.


You realize you've convinced everyone otherwise right? Using your own logic MJ played on stacked teams, beat weak competition, was ball-dominant and only won with one system - pretty much everything you accuse the other top-10 players of.



Just give it up and retire already. You lost.

[StrongLurk]

OP is definitely in his "Wizards MJ" phase this year...it's ugly to see.

[Roundball_Rock]

Sorry.

Anyone that ever muttered "3-6" has ZERO right to say anything about Reggie Miller. Who is 0-1 in the finals.

Paul George = All NBA team 5x, All defence 4x

Reggier Miller = All NBA 3rd team 3x.

Reggie Miller Career 18-3-3
Paul George Career 20-7-4

Jimmy Butler is also better than Reggie Miller.

George was a MVP candidate and 1st team all-NBA in 19'. It was just one season but Miller never came close to that peak.

Miller is 0-1 in the finals, 1-4 in the ECF, and 3-5 in Game 7's and Game 5's (first round was 5 games back then).

Here is what Bill Simmons said about Miller (this article is about his Miller podcast episode last winter):


He notes Miller had only three Third Team All-NBA selections and five All-Star appearances in his 18-year career.

Simmons even suggests that Miller was never considered a top-10 NBA player in a single season and his prime coincided with an unusually weak stretch of talent.

"Shouldn't it matter that he couldn't create shots for anyone else? That he couldn't consistently beat good defenders off the dribble? That the Pacers sprinted him around a series of picks almost like a mouse going through a maze to spring him for open looks?" Simmons asked.

"Everyone else tailored their games to make Reggie Miller look good. Can you win a title that way? Obviously not."

The Pacers had to move heaven and earth to generate 14 shots a game for Miller.

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2020/01/14/bill-simmons-ex-indiana-pacers-star-reggie-miller-wasnt-superstar-nba-the-ringer/4467917002/

[8Ball]

Putting that in the filing cabinet for later use. :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

Putting that in the filing cabinet for later use. :cheers:

:cheers:

You will find MJ stans will never criticize any 90's star (except Pippen or Rodman) because they are so invested in hyping them. :oldlol: They never had a bad game, bad series, had no flaws in their game, etc. Only MJ's teammates did.

[3ball]

I would argue that LeBron right now is a better defender than Jordan was at any point in his career.

Think about all of the players Michael Jordan had to defend throughout his entire career - Joe Dumars, John Starks, Craig Ehlo, etc. 2020 LeBron James can defend all of them just as well as Jordan, if not better.

But what makes LeBron clearly superior are two additional things that Jordan didn't do:

1) LeBron can defend centers and power forwards at a high level.


LeBron can actually defend heavy centers better than Anthony Davis because he has a stronger base (Bron is unusually strong in general).

Jordan was so much smaller and weaker that he couldn’t seriously consider doing anything in the frontcourt.

2) LeBron is also his team's defensive quarterback.


Scottie Pippen was the Chicago Bulls defensive quarterback, not Michael Jordan.

LeBron has been the defensive quarterback on all of his teams since 2008.

So it’s the same old story: LeBron can do everything on defense and Jordan couldn’t.

Defensive versatility doesn't equal good defense, which is why lebron hasn't been all-defense in 7 years... he isn't a good defender, so he doesn't get all-defense... he's a place-holder, aka replacement-level defense on 5 positions

And MJ got more dpoy votes every year than pippen, while being the primary defender on the opponent's best player, and raising pippen from a baby in 88' as the league's best defender.. heck, MJ was #2 for dpoy in 93', while pippen got no votes

[Roundball_Rock]

And MJ got more dpoy votes every year than pippen

This is yet another blatant lie.

[SouBeachTalents]

Defensive versatility doesn't equal good defense, which is why lebron hasn't been all-defense in 7 years... he isn't a good defender, so he doesn't get all-defense... he's a place-holder, aka replacement-level defense on 5 positions

And MJ got more dpoy votes every year than pippen, while being the primary defender on the opponent's best player, and raising pippen from a baby in 88' as the league's best defender.. heck, MJ was #2 for dpoy in 93', while pippen got no votes
Jordan finishing 2nd in DPOY in '93 is such a fcking joke :oldlol:

[3ball]

This is yet another blatant lie.



DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats

But this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time, and basketball in general.. AD is a better defender than pippen, yet he can't score like Pippen and the Lakers win.. the Lakers need great offense from him regardless of his dpoy-level defense

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers.. infact, every Finals and ECF opponent had a better defense during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns and 93' Cavs..

[3ball]

Jordan finishing 2nd in DPOY in '93 is such a fcking joke :oldlol:

Why?

Because you said so?

Because you don't want it to be?

Everyone said MJ was the goat defender back then.. Of all time and certainly in any given season... This was common thinking and people said it off-hand all the time

Look hard enough on YouTube and there's tons of people saying MJ is the goat defender

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron hasn't won any all-NBA defense the last several years because he's going to the finals every year instead of quitting the game for two years to rest and recharge. He amps up his defense in the playoffs with virtuoso performances like 2016 Jordan couldn't dream of touching. Jordan winning regular season popularity contest awards doesn't mean anything.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why?

Because you said so?

Because you don't want it to be?

Everyone said MJ was the goat defender back then.. Of all time and certainly in any given season... This was common thinking and people said it off-hand all the time

Look hard enough on YouTube and there's tons of people saying MJ is the goat defender
Only Jordan fanboys would believe Jordan was a better defender than Robinson

And you're really using the youtube comment section to back your claim :oldlol: What, you couldn't find anything on yahoo answers?

[3ball]

LeBron hasn't won any all-NBA defense the last several years because he's going to the finals every year instead of quitting the game for two years to rest and recharge. He amps up his defense in the playoffs with virtuoso performances like 2016 Jordan couldn't dream of touching. Jordan winning regular season popularity contest awards doesn't mean anything.

Oh I see

he takes the regular season off, so we shouldn't consider him an underdog in 16' and should go with the preseason odds (cavs were favored)??

got it

[dankok8]

I would argue that LeBron right now is a better defender than Jordan was at any point in his career.

If you would argue this then you quite frankly don't know what you're talking about.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan finishing 2nd in DPOY in '93 is such a fcking joke :oldlol:

It is funny, MJ fans will point to MJ's accolades when convenient (like MVPs or DPOY here) but whenever it is inconvenient they dismiss them as "media awards" (like Klay/Green getting more accolades than Irving/Love from 2015-2018 or MJ having 6x all-NBA teammates in 15 seasons and LeBron 5x in 17).


1-9ball, you just proved you lied. :lol

[3ball]

Only Jordan fanboys would believe Jordan was a better defender than Robinson

And you're really using the youtube comment section to back your claim :oldlol: What, you couldn't find anything on yahoo answers?

No Jerry West, Magic, Dumars and others said he was the best defender in the league and included hyperbole about "best ever defender" as well

It wasn't uncommon to hear this kind of talk and you weren't looked at weird for saying it

The guy won dpoy and was always top 5 in dpoy.. nearly won it again in 93'

So you're just young and dumb

[HylianNightmare]

L4/10n

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan was a great defender. It is amazing how one team had arguably the GOAT defenders at their position on the same team at the same time in Pippen, MJ, and Rodman. That doesn't even get to Grant, who was an elite defender for his era, just not a GOAT-level defender.

They even had the #2 defense without MJ, Grant, and Rodman in 95' (and before someone brings up scoring! They were #10 on offense).

How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:

[Bronbron23]

Only Jordan fanboys would believe Jordan was a better defender than Robinson

And you're really using the youtube comment section to back your claim :oldlol: What, you couldn't find anything on yahoo answers?

Jordan wasn't but drob is a center. Almost all centers who who are good defensively have more impact than guards or even fowards. Same goes for bron btw. He dosn't have the impact defensively of the better big men in the league

[3ball]

Jordan was a great defender. It is amazing how one team had arguably the GOAT defenders at their position on the same team at the same time in Pippen, MJ, and Rodman. That doesn't even get to Grant, who was an elite defender for his era, just not a GOAT-level defender.

They even had the #2 defense without MJ, Grant, and Rodman in 95' (and before someone brings up scoring! They were #10 on offense).

How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:
Only MJ made the Bulls elite on both ends, and therefore championship caliber (goat dynasty-caliber actually)

And the 98' bulls were #1 on defense before pippen came back, similar to the 95' Bulls before MJ came back

That's what happens when a team is missing players on offense (95', 98'), so they step it up on defense..

indeed, players have finite amount of energy to expend both ends, so increases on one end take away from the other.. fortunately, MJ allowed teams to be great on both ends, aka the GOAT

[And1AllDay]

Jordan was a great defender. It is amazing how one team had arguably the GOAT defenders at their position on the same team at the same time in Pippen, MJ, and Rodman. That doesn't even get to Grant, who was an elite defender for his era, just not a GOAT-level defender.

They even had the #2 defense without MJ, Grant, and Rodman in 95' (and before someone brings up scoring! They were #10 on offense).

How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:

bingooooooo

+1

[Bronbron23]

Jordan was a great defender. It is amazing how one team had arguably the GOAT defenders at their position on the same team at the same time in Pippen, MJ, and Rodman. That doesn't even get to Grant, who was an elite defender for his era, just not a GOAT-level defender.

They even had the #2 defense without MJ, Grant, and Rodman in 95' (and before someone brings up scoring! They were #10 on offense).

How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:

His teams definitely weren't stacked. Rod was 35 and like 3 years outside of his last all star year. He was still a great defender and rebounder but he only scored 6 points a game or so. I can only imagine how much bron stans would devalue rod if he was on brons team. Mj stans do the same though and both are idiots tbh. Towards the last chip both rod and pip were shells of themselves. Rod was no longer one of the best defenders in the league and pips back hampered his play on both ends. Mj carried that 1998 team which is something bron stans like to ignore.

[Roundball_Rock]

Mj carried that 1998 team which is something bron stans like to ignore.

The same reason people ignore Santa Claus: it doesn't exist.

Rodman was all-D first team in 96' and got DPOY votes. In 97' and 98' he was still elite--ask Karl Malone...

98'? Pippen wrecked the Indiana and Utah offenses from even operating normally. His back flared up in Game 5 of the 98' finals but he was FMVP front-runner before that (anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 finals MVP" and see what people were saying).

Kukoc also was good in the 98' playoffs (after having a terrible 97' playoffs due to a foot injury). He outplayed Miller in the ECF and in Game 7. When Pippen got hurt in the finals, Kukoc stepped up to average 23 PPG in the final two games. Kukoc put up 15 PPG in the series when Stockton/Hornacek combined for 20 PPG.

These facts are "spun" as "MJ carried." There is a consistent theme: MJ fans have to manufacture carry jobs because he doesn't have any during those finals run, unlike LeBron. Karl Malone would have a ring if he was on the Bulls and Jordan on the Jazz.

[Ainosterhaspie]

His teams definitely weren't stacked. Rod was 35 and like 3 years outside of his last all star year. He was still a great defender and rebounder but he only scored 6 points a game or so. I can only imagine how much bron stans would devalue rod if he was on brons team. Mj stans do the same though and both are idiots tbh. Towards the last chip both rod and pip were shells of themselves. Rod was no longer one of the best defenders in the league and pips back hampered his play on both ends. Mj carried that 1998 team which is something bron stans like to ignore.
LeBron played with the poor man's Rodman winning a title with him in 2016. I'm happy to give him full props because he did his job well. They probably couldn't have won without him. Having Rodman would have been even better.

[72-10]

LeBron is an overrated defender who didn't even deserve all of the All-Defensive nods that he got.

[72-10]

Rod was a great defender who could still matchup against and stop (or in the case of the mammoth Shaq, slow) oversized opponents. He could bump in the post and was especially lockdown at the end of games. He would have been sufficiently versatile to go out on the wing like Dwight does and serve as a fourth perimeter defender, but it wasn't needed in the Bulls loaded system. Additionally, he still garnered league-leading defensive rebounding numbers.

If you want to talk about Rodman, make a Rodman thread instead of another LeBron thread.

[Bronbron23]

The same reason people ignore Santa Claus: it doesn't exist.

Rodman was all-D first team in 96' and got DPOY votes. In 97' and 98' he was still elite--ask Karl Malone...

98'? Pippen wrecked the Indiana and Utah offenses from even operating normally. His back flared up in Game 5 of the 98' finals but he was FMVP front-runner before that (anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 finals MVP" and see what people were saying).

Kukoc also was good in the 98' playoffs (after having a terrible 97' playoffs due to a foot injury). He outplayed Miller in the ECF and in Game 7. When Pippen got hurt in the finals, Kukoc stepped up to average 23 PPG in the final two games. Kukoc put up 15 PPG in the series when Stockton/Hornacek combined for 20 PPG.

These facts are "spun" as "MJ carried." There is a consistent theme: MJ fans have to manufacture carry jobs because he doesn't have any during those finals run, unlike LeBron. Karl Malone would have a ring if he was on the Bulls and Jordan on the Jazz.

Rodmam definitely wasn't elite in in 98. He was still a great rebounder but he had a career low in pts and didnt make a defensive team. Yeah he got like 2 votes for dpoy but he was nowhere near winning it. Mookie Blaylock had more votes lol.

And pip wasn't elite either. He also had a career low in points in the playoffs. Mj nearly scored 20 more points a game. They were both still very good but they weren't elite. Its funny how bron stans will use stats as why bron is the goat but they totally ignore it when looking at pip.

[And1AllDay]

LeBron is an overrated defender who didn't even deserve all of the All-Defensive nods that he got.

72-10
boiiii you are hurting off 73-9

:roll::roll::oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

LeBron played with the poor man's Rodman winning a title with him in 2016. I'm happy to give him full props because he did his job well. They probably couldn't have won without him. Having Rodman would have been even better.

Yeah probably. Im assuming your talking about Tristan thompson or maybe your talking about love. Im not sure how effective rod would be in this era. He was a very physical defender. He wouldn't be able to defend that way now. He'd also be out defending on the perimeter more so he probably wouldn't get as many boards.

[8Ball]

LeBron is an overrated defender who didn't even deserve all of the All-Defensive nods that he got.

This is wrong.

Patrick Beverly got all D this year and LeBron is 100% superior defensive player than Beverly for 2020. Lakers were top 3 defensive team. All the numbers prove it.

He deserved more All D teams.

[Bronbron23]

This is wrong.

Patrick Beverly got all D this year and LeBron is 100% superior defensive player than Beverly for 2020. Lakers were top 3 defensive team. All the numbers prove it.

He deserved more All D teams.

Yes and no. When he tries he's better. He coasts alot during the reg season although this year wasn't as bad. I thought he could of got a defensive team this year. No chance he deserved one in the last few years Pryor though.

[8Ball]

Between 2009-2014 all of LeBron's teams were elite defensively. Lakers were monstrous defensively.

So Bron got shafted out of 2020 all D team.

[Roundball_Rock]

Rodmam definitely wasn't elite in in 98. He was still a great rebounder but he had a career low in pts and didnt make a defensive team. Yeah he got like 2 votes for dpoy but he was nowhere near winning it. Mookie Blaylock had more votes lol.

And pip wasn't elite either. He also had a career low in points in the playoffs. Mj nearly scored 20 more points a game. They were both still very good but they weren't elite. Its funny how bron stans will use stats as why bron is the goat but they totally ignore it when looking at pip.

Scoring was down for everybody as the pace slowed. Stockton and Hornacek put up 20 PPG combined in the same series MJ fans complain about Pippen/Kukoc scoring 31 PPG.

Pippen missed half the season and made all-NBA anyway. :lol That is something only elite players do (Kyrie couldn't do it when he was hurt in 16').

If Rodman didn't limit Malone, the Jazz would have won.

[Bronbron23]

Between 2009-2014 all of LeBron's teams were elite defensively. Lakers were monstrous defensively.

So Bron got shafted out of 2020 all D team.

Pretty sure bron waa all defense from 2009-14 and i agree who could of been all defense this year. Thats 1 year he got overlooked and its still questionable. Bron wasnt elite defensively all year. Sometimes he was engaged sometimes he wasn't. Yeah when engaged he's as good as anyone but its a regular season award. Bron didn't play consistent d until playoffs

[LonelyOwl]

His teams definitely weren't stacked. Rod was 35 and like 3 years outside of his last all star year. He was still a great defender and rebounder but he only scored 6 points a game or so. I can only imagine how much bron stans would devalue rod if he was on brons team. Mj stans do the same though and both are idiots tbh. Towards the last chip both rod and pip were shells of themselves. Rod was no longer one of the best defenders in the league and pips back hampered his play on both ends. Mj carried that 1998 team which is something bron stans like to ignore.
Pippen lead the Bulls starters in rebounds, assists , steals and blocks in the 98 postseason

But let's act like MJ did all the work and carried a bunch of carcasses :rolleyes:

[72-10]

72-10
boiiii you are hurting off 73-9

:roll::roll::oldlol:

the '96 Bulls would beat that Warriors team

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen lead the Bulls starters in rebounds, assists , steals and blocks in the 98 postseason

But let's act like MJ did all the work and carried a bunch of carcasses :rolleyes:

Look at the little help MJ had according to this real-time reporting:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937

How did Mike overcome this? :bowdown:

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron is an overrated defender who didn't even deserve all of the All-Defensive nods that he got.
You ranked Kobe & West as better defenders than Duncan & Wilt, invalidating your opinion on the subject

[3ball]

Look at the little help MJ had according to this real-time reporting:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937

How did Mike overcome this? :bowdown:

People merely fake compliment pippen's hustle and glue guy/role player stuff because they couldn't compliment his offense.. it was a silent, intuitive agreement.. "oh yes, pippen, well what can you say.." and then they mention a bunch of hustle, glue guy stuff

Again, if "defense" was an argument, then AD could've scored like Pippen and the Lakers win, since AD is a better defender than pippen. But we all know the Lakers would lose in the 1st round if AD scored like Pippen.

Defense only enters the equation when a player is so bad that he prevents a top defense.. aka guys like Curry and Kyrie were on #1 defenses so they pass the test.. defense is truly a team effort, so the defense argument is a non-factor

[Bronbron23]

Scoring was down for everybody as the pace slowed. Stockton and Hornacek put up 20 PPG combined in the same series MJ fans complain about Pippen/Kukoc scoring 31 PPG.

Pippen missed half the season and made all-NBA anyway. :lol That is something only elite players do (Kyrie couldn't do it when he was hurt in 16').

If Rodman didn't limit Malone, the Jazz would have won.

Well pip missed half the season because of the same back that kept him from being elite in the playoffs. Yeah he was obviously still great but it definitely wasn't one of his better years. Bulls had a pretty good record for those game pip missed too btw.

As far as rodman limiting rodman it was miniscule. Karl was still like 26/10 or something which was right around his normal numbers that year. I wouldn't argue that without rod they dont win but that can be said for anybody losing there 3rd best player.

[Roundball_Rock]

Well pip missed half the season because of the same back that kept him from being elite in the playoffs.

He injured his foot in the final game of the ECF. That is what he had surgery for.


Bulls had a pretty good record for those game pip missed too btw.

Yup, the 98' Bulls w/out Pippen=the 94' Bulls w/out MJ. MJ fans want to tout the former but not the latter. You can't pick and choose. :oldlol: If anything, it is harder to do it for a full season. In the short term players can step up, like Rodman did because he knew he had to do more.


As far as rodman limiting rodman it was miniscule. Karl was still like 26/10 or something which was right around his normal numbers that year.

Check his efficiency. Malone put up good top line numbers but his efficiency declined a ton compared to his normal level, especially in 97'. He went from something like 60% TS to 49% in the finals.

Don't forget Kukoc. You all love Miller and Kukoc outplayed him in the ECF and Game 7. 4th option vs. a 1st.

[GrayGoat]

Op completely bamboozled again lol

[Bronbron23]

He injured his foot in the final game of the ECF. That is what he had surgery for.



Yup, the 98' Bulls w/out Pippen=the 94' Bulls w/out MJ. MJ fans want to tout the former but not the latter. You can't pick and choose. :oldlol: If anything, it is harder to do it for a full season. In the short term players can step up, like Rodman did because he knew he had to do more.



Check his efficiency. Malone put up good top line numbers but his efficiency declined a ton compared to his normal level, especially in 97'. He went from something like 60% TS to 49% in the finals.

Don't forget Kukoc. You all love Miller and Kukoc outplayed him in the ECF and Game 7. 4th option vs. a 1st.

Its widely known pips back was busted in 98. He surgery for it after the playoffs https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-07-29-9807290345-story,amp.html

Cant compare seasons because as you say it wasnt a whole season for mj but what your saying dosnt make sense. Without pip the bull actually struggled out the gate. Once they figured it out it was smooth sailing as usual.

And karl malone wasnt way less efficient at all. He was 53% for the reg season and 50 in the finals. His average for the playoffs were usually below 50% so there wasn't much change at all really. Your just making shit up on that one.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans will tell us how great Kyrie Irving is for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons and then tell us Pippen was not elite for being good enough to make all-NBA when missing half the season. :lol

Cut the crap. You have to play at an elite level to make all-NBA when you missed half the season. If Pippen played the full season he easily would have been all-NBA 2nd team based on his level of play, even if he declined from 97'. You know it.

[Bronbron23]

MJ stans will tell us how great Kyrie Irving is for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons and then tell us Pippen was not elite for being good enough to make all-NBA when missing half the season. :lol

Cut the crap. You have to play at an elite level to make all-NBA when you missed half the season. If Pippen played the full season he easily would have been all-NBA 2nd team based on his level of play, even if he declined from 97'. You know it.

Pippen 97': 20/7/6 5.7 BPM (7th in the NBA)
Pippen 98': 19/5/6 5.0 BPM (8th in the NBA)

Its obviously relative dude. Pip was definitely still a great player. Use the word elite if you like but he definitely wasn't at his best come the 98 playoffs. Multiple people including pip has said as much. 16/6 on 41% isnt a superstar in any era.

[Roundball_Rock]

He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.

Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.

The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.

Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.

[3ball]

He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.

Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.

The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.

Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.

If AD scored like Pippen, the Lakers would lose in the 1st round, and AD is a better defender than pippen

So that proves the defense argument is false and pippen's anemic offense made him weak - he was an Iggy-level player, or maybe a lesser Paul George

the numbers speak for themselves.. only MJ routinely beat top teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick

[Bronbron23]

He wasn't elite but made all-NBA in half a season (which implies he had to be a clear cut top 10 player--if you are top 15 and play half a season you won't make it). That doesn't make any sense--unless all those people got it wrong and MJ stans 22 years later are right.

Pippen's scoring average in 98' (19) was basically the same as MJ fan favorite Miller's, Ray Allen's, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KG, and Drexler. All of the were within 1 PPG, Kemp was a few ticks behind them. Hill scored only 2 PPG more.

The Bulls' pace was 12% slower than the average team today. That's 21.5 PPG if you adjust for average pace, not even factoring easier rules, etc. You make it sound like he was Ben Wallace.

Re playoffs, Pippen dominated defensively--even though no MJ fan will credit him for that. People can Google that or watch the games on YouTube. His scoring was inconsistent in the playoffs--that is where his decline was more evident. I can admit that. I'm just saying, and all-NBA voters agreed, he was playing at a clear cut top 10 level still. He just was not a top 5 caliber player like he had been in the previous seasons.

I think you underestimate Phil's role in pips individual success. If mj needed pip then pip needed phil just as much. Pip never made an all star without phil. He couldn't even score 15 points without phil.

And pip was a great defender but his defense is severely overrated by bron stans. Its not like he had the impact of a drob or any great center. He didn't dominate defensively. He was defensively a huge part of tge bulls defense though but it was a collective effort. Again you would never say anyone was a superstar who scored 16/6/7 on mediocre efficiency. Even if they were a great defender. So why pip?

[Roundball_Rock]

He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:

I wouldn't disagree with that but perimeter defenders dont impact the game defensively like centers do. This is also widely known. So yeah he's a great defender but his impact isnt enough to make up for his offensive struggles in some of his finals. Even a center who has more of a defensive impact wouldn't be considered a superstar with 16/7/6. Especially if he was on one if brons teams:facepalm

[Bronbron23]

He is widely considered the GOAT perimeter defender. :oldlol:

I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.

Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game

Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats

[And1AllDay]

I can only imagine what bron stans would say about kawhi if he put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting. They'd have a field day.


Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game

Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats


line em up, shoot em down

2 ez for the bois


https://media.giphy.com/media/hSi4jPFdeoEed62SBS/giphy.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Anyone can look up what people were saying at the time. Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP." SouBeachTalents did that and here is some of what he found. Do you trust these reporters, coaches, and players in real time or MJ stans with an obvious agenda 22 years later? :lol

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937

These are the same people who defend Stockton scoring 9.7 PPG. :oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Hard to put up good scoring stats when your teammate is taking 25-30 shots per game

Jordan ball didn't allow his teammates to get going, and it's reflected in the stats

Pip literally scored 2 more points a game in his prime when mj left so thats bs.

And mj lead 3 of the best offenses ever. The triangle had way more on and off ball movement than offenses bron plays in. Wtf are talking about:facepalm

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls' offense was top 10 w/out MJ but not w/out Pippen. Inconvenient truth. :pimp:

[Bronbron23]

Anyone can look up what people were saying at the time. Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP." SouBeachTalents did that and here is some of what he found. Do you trust these reporters, coaches, and players in real time or MJ stans with an obvious agenda 22 years later? :lol

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)&p=14154937&viewfull=1#post14154937

These are the same people who defend Stockton scoring 9.7 PPG. :oldlol:

And then theres this https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/15/sports/the-nba-finals-pippen-s-pain-pushes-jordan-to-greatest-feat.html

[Roundball_Rock]

Ah, so now Pippen was injured? You guys pick and choose when to mention that he got hurt late in the series. Never mention it when posting his stats, as if he was going to accumulate any stats injured that badly. :oldlol: He was putting up 20 PPG through the first four games and was the front-runner for FMVP when the Bulls were up 3-1.

[3ball]

And then theres this https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/15/sports/the-nba-finals-pippen-s-pain-pushes-jordan-to-greatest-feat.html

Pippen averaged 15 on 41% and was horrible

Even thru 4 games he was only getting Wade's 13' Finals stats... If pippen was scoring like AD or 11/12 Wade, the series would've been a sweep or 5 games...

Only pippen's poor play made it go 6.. without MJ's heroics, pippen's poor play would've caused ANOTHER loss or close series, just like the 98' ECF, 97' Finals, 96' Finals, 93' Finals, 92' ECSF, 90' ECF, and 89' ECF

[Bronbron23]

The Bulls' offense was top 10 w/out MJ but not w/out Pippen. Inconvenient truth. :pimp:

Mj was always an all star w/out Pippen but Pippen wasnt always an all star w/o jordan. And he was was never an all star without phil.

[Roundball_Rock]

Mj was always an all star w/out Pippen Mj was always an all star w/out Pippen but Pippen wasnt always an all star w/o jordan.

Pippen was always a winner w/out Jordan; Jordan was always a loser w/out Pippen.

Jordan was voted in in DC--he wasn't a legit all-star. The same way Grant Hill got voted in or Kobe while being a bench player/4th option.

[3ball]

Jordan was voted in in DC--he wasn't a legit all-star. The same way Grant Hill got voted in around the same time.

03' Jordan... 19.3 PER
04' Lebron... 18.3 PER

[Roundball_Rock]

GOAT Candidates Without their Best Teammate

Wilt w/out West: champ
KAJ w/out Magic: champ
Russell w/out Havlicek: champ
LeBron w/out Wade: champ
Jordan w/out Pippen: sold a lot of sneakers

Get over it. Jordan quit instead of defending the MVP and chip w/out Pippen. Name another player who retired because another guy left.

[Bronbron23]

Ah, so now Pippen was injured? You guys pick and choose when to mention that he got hurt late in the series. Never mention it when posting his stats, as if he was going to accumulate any stats injured that badly. :oldlol: He was putting up 20 PPG through the first four games and was the front-runner for FMVP when the Bulls were up 3-1.

Your talking so much shit.

Game 1-mj 33 pts +1/ pip 21 pts -1
Game 2 mj 37 pts +16 / pip 21 pts +1
Game 3 mj 24 pts +24/ pip 10 pts + 14
Game 4 mj 34 pts +0/ pip 28 pts +2

Front runner is a stretch and yes pip was hurt and it led to mj having to carry the team more as i already mentioned.

[Bronbron23]

GOAT Candidates Without their Best Teammate

Wilt w/out West: champ
KAJ w/out Magic: champ
Russell w/out Havlicek: champ
LeBron w/out Wade: champ
Jordan w/out Pippen: sold a lot of sneakers

Get over it. Jordan quit instead of defending the MVP and chip w/out Pippen. Name another player who retired because another guy left.

Pippen without phil not even an all star. Couldn't even score 15 pts

[Roundball_Rock]

Like I said, anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP" and see for themselves.


It was a defensive masterpiece by the Bulls, one unmatched in NBA history, not to mention Finals history. The Jazz's 54 points might have been just enough to beat the Green Bay Packers. This wasn't a basketball game, it was Kerry Wood blowing away the Houston Astros. It was Bob Gibson in the World Series. It was one man taking out a team.

Oh, sure, this was a team effort by the Bulls. Ron Harper was wonderful in steering Stockton toward the baseline to limit the options on the Jazz's famed pick-and-roll. So was Michael Jordan, who took just 14 shots but still had 24 points to lead the Bulls. But it was mostly Pippen, who has thwarted the Jazz like no other player, never mind a whole team. And his 10 points, four rebounds and four assists were only part of the story.

After the Bulls defeated the Jazz in the Finals last season, Stockton's summary was that the Jazz had no answer for Pippen. Utah is still failing that test. "The luxury for us is to have a defender like Scottie who can cover more than one situation at a time," coach Phil Jackson said.

If the Bulls win these Finals, Pippen should be the Most Valuable Player. "There have been terrific defenders in the history of the Finals," Jackson said. "You can go back to (Michael) Cooper for the Lakers, and Bobby Jones with the 76ers and other players who have played outstanding defense. The majority of those players are great one-on-one players. Scottie is able to be a one-man wrecking crew"

The story was defensive domination, which wrecked the #1 Utah offense. The Bulls' offense sucked (88 PPG), it just didn't matter when Utah was scoring 80.

[Bronbron23]

Like I said, anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP" and see for themselves. This is no secret to anyone who watched the series.



The story was defensive domination, which wrecked the #1 Utah offense. The Bulls' offense sucked (88 PPG), it just didn't matter when Utah was scoring 80.

Thats someones opinion. I can find 10 articles that would say the same shit bout mj. And you act like mj wasn't a part of that defense and rod fir that matter. They were sll great defenders. Only one was a great scorer.

[MadDog]

That's why wanted to teamup with Davis :oldlol: AD finished second in DPOY voting and made First Team All-Def. Davis has pure dominion over this Laker team when you factor in the scoring.

[3ball]

That's why he wanted to teamup with Davis, the Laker anchor on defense. AD finished second in DPOY voting and made First Team All-Def. Pure dominion over this Laker team when you factor in the scoring.

But if he scores like Pippen the Lakers lose in the 1st round

Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, and 19 on 42% in 6 Finals... 16 on 40% in 2 Finals and 5 ECF

[MadDog]

But if he scores like Pippen the Lakers lose in th 1st round

Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, and 19 on 42% in 6 Finals... 16 on 40% in 2 Finals and 5 ECF

Why would AD score like Pippen? AD is a better player/scorer by far.

[3ball]

Like I said, anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 Finals MVP" and see for themselves.



The story was defensive domination, which wrecked the #1 Utah offense. The Bulls' offense sucked (88 PPG), it just didn't matter when Utah was scoring 80.

No, it's just platitudes and hyperbole, which happens when the story is always about Jordan.. reporters back then called it "jordan fatigue".. so they throw pippen a bone once in a while... But everyone saw MJ dominate the scoring in a 1-man fashion and distribution and completely carry the load in the 4th, plus Pippen usually finished series poorly, so no one actually thought pippen was indispensable, not even the GM

[Roundball_Rock]

Thats someones opinion. I can find 10 articles that would say the same shit bout mj. And you act like mj wasn't a part of that defense and rod fir that matter. They were sll great defenders. Only one was a great scorer.

Like I said, people are free to Google and see what people were saying before Pippen got hurt. Just check the timestamp. Pippen got hurt in Game 5 and that shifted it to MJ but that doesn't negate dominance when Chicago built a 3-1 led.

The story was Pippen playing a "roving linebacker" role to wreck the Jazz offense (as all those people who watched it live said in those quotes). The Jazz couldn't execute their offense, Stockton, who MJ stans rave about, watched this all go down and had no counter move.

You were dismissing Rodman as a defender earlier. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[3ball]

.
The gap between Dirk and his 2nd option... versus the gap between MJ and Pippen


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
11' Terry....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031

93' Jordan... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
93' Pippen... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187

92' Jordan... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
92' Pippen... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048

91' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
91' Pippen... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 1.4........... 0.6............ 0.136

96' Jordan... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
96' Pippen... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122

97' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
97' Pippen... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090

98' Jordan... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
98' Pippen... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095



Conclusion - Jordan had 6 carry-job rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

[3ball]

Like I said, people are free to Google and see what people were saying before Pippen got hurt. Just check the timestamp. Pippen got hurt in Game 5 and that shifted it to MJ but that doesn't negate dominance when Chicago built a 3-1 led.

The story was Pippen playing a "roving linebacker" role to wreck the Jazz offense (as all those people who watched it live said in those quotes). The Jazz couldn't execute their offense, Stockton, who MJ stans rave about, watched this all go down and had no counter move.

You were dismissing Rodman as a defender earlier. :confusedshrug:

"Shifted it to MJ" lol

Keep making shit up

Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP for a reason - his stats were nowhere near MJ's, and you can see the gap is much bigger than Dirk's advantage over bum Terry (previous post above)

So all 6 of MJ's Finals were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

Only MJ had to beat top 5 SRS teams with 15 on 41% (poor scoring and efficiency from their sidekick), so only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams.

Jordan averaged 33 and Pippen 15 in those Finals.... Career-wise, it's 34 to 19, so a 15 point edge for Jordan, with higher assists... That's goat gap BY FAR between 1st and 2nd option

[GrayGoat]

.
The gap between Dirk and his 2nd option... versus the gap between MJ and Pippen


PLAYOFFS

11' Dirk'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
11' Terry....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031

93' Jordan... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
93' Pippen... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187

92' Jordan... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
92' Pippen... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048

91' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
91' Pippen... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 1.4........... 0.6............ 0.136

96' Jordan... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
96' Pippen... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122

97' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
97' Pippen... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090

98' Jordan... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
98' Pippen... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095



Conclusion - Jordan had 6 carry-job rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

Why couldn’t MJ “carry” without Pippen?

[3ball]

Why couldn’t MJ “carry” without Pippen?

Pre-pippen was the super-team 80's, when a super-team was required to win the conference

Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..

obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..

The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals (Paul George level)

[Roundball_Rock]

Why couldn’t MJ “carry” without Pippen?

He got 20+ PPG from Woolridge or Oakley (20/15) in each playoff run before Pippen too and then got 20+ from Hamilton and Stackhouse. Yeah, MJ was old in DC but he is compared to KAJ who was all-NBA 1st team at that age without the benefit of 5 years off and LeBron who was 2nd in MVP in year 17.

[3ball]

He got 20+ PPG from Woolridge or Oakley (20/15) in each playoff run


.
^^^ that was the 80's, when many HOF's and a super-team was required to win the East

Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..

obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..

The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals (Paul George level)

[And1AllDay]

He got 20+ PPG from Woolridge or Oakley (20/15) in each playoff run before Pippen too and then got 20+ from Hamilton and Stackhouse. Yeah, MJ was old in DC but he is compared to KAJ who was all-NBA 1st team at that age without the benefit of 5 years off and LeBron who was 2nd in MVP in year 17.

mike doesnt play defense pip showed him how

mike was just a tall allen iverson without pip thats why

mike needed the water temp in his sponge bath to be just right :oldlol:

not too hot, not too cold :oldlol:

No pip no chip, no papa phil no chip, no weak opponnet, no chip

[3ball]

mike doesnt play defense pip showed him how

mike was just a tall allen iverson without pip thats why

mike needed the water temp in his sponge bath to be just right :oldlol:

not too hot, not too cold :oldlol:

No pip no chip, no papa phil no chip, no weak opponnet, no chip



DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and many of Lebron's teams

[HBK_Kliq_2]

^^^ that was the 80's, when many HOF's and a super-team was required to win the East

Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..

obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..

The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals (Paul George level)

You're just jealous because Jordan never had a title run without an all nba 1st teamer in his prime. Kawhi 2019 Kawhi did. Paul George in the bubble wasn't close to ring Pippen.

Pippen during his rings was always better then Paul George.

Pippen BPM 1st 3peat: 5.1
Pippen BPM 2nd 3peat: 6.1
Pippen PER 1st 3peat: 20
Pippen PER 2nd 3peat: 19

Paul George BPM 2020 playoffs: 0.4

Paul Gorge PER 2020 playoffs: 15

So George is clearly the worse player. Clippers would of won the championship this year if George played like Pippen. Instead, we got bubble George AKA migrane headache Scottie.

[GrayGoat]

^^^ that was the 80's, when many HOF's and a super-team was required to win the East

Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..

obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..

The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals (Paul George level)

You're just jealous because Jordan never had a title run without an all nba 1st teamer in his prime. Kawhi 2019 Kawhi did. Paul George in the bubble wasn't close to ring Pippen.

Pippen during his rings was always better then Paul George.

Pippen BPM 1st 3peat: 5.1
Pippen BPM 2nd 3peat: 6.1
Pippen PER 1st 3peat: 20
Pippen PER 2nd 3peat: 19

Paul George BPM 2020 playoffs: 0.4

Paul Gorge PER 2020 playoffs: 15

So George is clearly the worse player. Clippers would of won the championship this year if George played like Pippen. Instead, we got bubble George AKA migrane headache Scottie.
Bingo. MJ wasn’t capable of winning without an all nba 1st teamer

[AussieSteve]

The fact that there was 5 guys in their mid-30's making All-Defensive teams in 1998 reminds us all how weak that era was



Out of the 10 players from 1st and 2nd team, only two were champions (Scottie, Ordan) :oldlol:

In terms of star talent, Mid-late 90s was without question the weakest era in nba history post the ABA merger. Late 80s and the late 10s have been the strongest.

I'm not sure you can name a single player who peaked between '96 and '99 who is a clear cut top 50 player all time. The late 90s was old mean beating up on raw 20 year old will-be-greats and mid-late 20s not-quite-greats. The exceptions were Shaq and DRob, and both those guys spent big chunks of Jordan's 2nd 3peat injured.

[Bronbron23]

Pippen was always a winner w/out Jordan; Jordan was always a loser w/out Pippen.

Jordan was voted in in DC--he wasn't a legit all-star. The same way Grant Hill got voted in or Kobe while being a bench player/4th option.

They were both losers without each other dude. Mj was always a star regardless of the situation. Cant say the same with pip. Again just imagine if kawhi leonard put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting in any series. Yall would kill him even with his impact defensively. But now all of a sudden those numbers are amazing. Pip was a perfect compliment to mj and that bulls team but he wasn't that guy. Even phil didn't believe in him. Why do you think he always gave the ball to Kukoc in the crunch time?

[8Ball]

He got 20+ PPG from Woolridge or Oakley (20/15) in each playoff run before Pippen too and then got 20+ from Hamilton and Stackhouse. Yeah, MJ was old in DC but he is compared to KAJ who was all-NBA 1st team at that age without the benefit of 5 years off and LeBron who was 2nd in MVP in year 17.

This is why Jordan has zero argument for longevity.

Kareem and LeBron in their 14th and 15th seasons were making playoffs.

[Bronbron23]

This is why Jordan has zero argument for longevity.

Kareem and LeBron in their 14th and 15th seasons were making playoffs.

Zero argument? At 35 he won mvp, fmvp, scoring title, first team defense and a chip. Has anyone done that at 35?

[3ball]

^^^ that was the 80's, when many HOF's and a super-team was required to win the East

Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..

obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..

The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals (Paul George level)

You're just jealous because Jordan never had a title run without an all nba 1st teamer in his prime. Kawhi 2019 Kawhi did. Paul George in the bubble wasn't close to ring Pippen.

Pippen during his rings was always better then Paul George.

Pippen BPM 1st 3peat: 5.1
Pippen BPM 2nd 3peat: 6.1
Pippen PER 1st 3peat: 20
Pippen PER 2nd 3peat: 19

Paul George BPM 2020 playoffs: 0.4

Paul Gorge PER 2020 playoffs: 15

So George is clearly the worse player. Clippers would of won the championship this year if George played like Pippen. Instead, we got bubble George AKA migrane headache Scottie.

You're comparing George's worst to pippen's best

Compare George's worst to pippen's worst and it's the same, or Pippen is worse

But of course a dropout lebron fan is so dumb that they compare best to worst and act like it's viable argument

[RogueBorg]

bran was rim protector fmvp for two full playoff runs of defrtg 100 and below

mike never did this :( he never had the defense impact like bran

and bran is the playoff steals leader and mike is #3 behind his own teammate pip :oldlol:

your done

LOL Lebron has NEVER been a rim protector. Jordan is 3 inches shorter and averages just as many blocks per game as LeFraud. And the fact of the matter is Jordan has 3 seasons (1.2, 1.5, 1.6 bpg) that are better than Lebrons best (1.1)

Your steals argument is a joke, they're longevity numbers. LeBron has 1 season, his 2nd season, where he averaged 2 SPG while MJ has done it 10x with one season over 3.

GTFOH

[kawhileonard2]

Marcus Smart just won DPOY. Lebron couldn't.