If you are teammate dependent, can you still be the GOAT?

[GrayGoat]

MJ was shackled to Pippen. Meanwhile Kareem? Nope LeBron? Nope Russell? Nope

[Ainosterhaspie]

Every player is teammate dependant, so clearly the answer is yes.

[GrayGoat]

Every player is teammate dependant, so clearly the answer is yes.
To one player?

[MadDog]

No for LeBron? He jet from Cleveland and joined two Top 10 players (one who was arguably BEST in the world) just to win a title. Heck in their first finals together, they still lost :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Clearly MJ fans worry you can't because they are extremely insecure about Pippen. :lol

You also have the GOAT coach. People ask how much credit Brady and Belichick should get respectively but somehow that doesn't come up with MJ/Jackson.

I can't think of any other GOAT candidate in stick & ball sports who is so tied to one teammate. Montana had success before Rice. Rice had success after Montana. Brady had success before Gronk. Gretzky made a Finals without Messier.

In auto racing you have that, like Richard Petty and Jimmie Johnson had the same crew chief for all their chips. To me it is a plus that Earnhardt won with different crew chiefs, different teams but obviously a lot of people still have those other guys as GOAT.

If you are all about team success then you have to factor in team context, and the comp. I am not all about team success so MJ would be a GOAT candidate even without Pippen, a scenario under which he would probably have 1-2 rings instead of 6 (I can't see a scenario where he wound up ringless).


No for LeBron? He jet from Cleveland and joined two Top 10 players (one who was arguably BEST in the world) just to win a title. Heck in their first finals together, they still lost :oldlol:

Bosh made one all-NBA team in 13 seasons--long before Miami (07') and he was a "top 10 player" while guys who were MVP candidates were bums. :lol

[Dbrog]

You guys really don't think about the other side of this that makes it hard to stick with a great teammate. 1) there's the money issue and the NBA wasn't always set up to accommodate for multiple dudes to get paid large and 2) it's hard ****ing work to not allow egos or injuries/health to ruin great duos, see Shaq/Kobe or Magic/Kareem etc

[Roundball_Rock]

You guys really don't think about the other side of this that makes it hard to stick with a great teammate. 1) there's the money issue and the NBA wasn't always set up to accommodate for multiple dudes to get paid large and 2) it's hard ****ing work to not allow egos or injuries/health to ruin great duos, see Shaq/Kobe or Magic/Kareem etc

It was a fluke in many ways.

A major reason it worked is Pippen's bad contract. They couldn't afford MJ and Pippen both at market value. Hell, they couldn't even afford Horace Grant--who was the 3rd highest paid player in the NBA in Orlando behind MJ and Ewing.

Then they got lucky that none of the Pippen trades happened. They couldn't get equal value back, which is hard for a superstar, so if they pulled the trigger obviously any trade would be a hit. Imagine MJ playing with Latrell Sprewell and Tom Gugliotta or Glen Rice and Rony Seiklay instead.

It also was before the whole "the man" and "alpha" and all that other BS. People like Pippen, McHale were fine with being elite but second fiddles. Post-Pippen any superstar will want to leave so they don't get diminished as a "sidekick" as they saw with him. That is why Kobe ran Shaq out, Irving left Cleveland, etc.

[3ball]

If pippen came along in the super-team 80's (early-mid 80's), the Bulls' would've needed more help because a super-team was required to win the East.

So Pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along during the 2-star vs 2-star format of the 90's, where anyone would've won alongside the goat