ESPN calculates that peak Jordan would average 45 today based on more threes and pace

[3ball]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWFro6OQqHY&t=0m54s

[GrayGoat]

The hole in that argument is MJ is not good at 3’s. He’s not going to magically get better

[StrongLurk]

You think MJ would take more than 30 shots a game?

Lets say he goes 16/32, 4/8 from three, and 9/10 from the line every game to get 45 points. Do you think that is actually realistic?

[Roundball_Rock]

The problem is MJ stans are all over the map on whether scoring is higher or not. Here you are saying MJ would go from 33 PPG in 93' to 45 PPG; in the next thread you will say another player would score less today.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I watched 30 seconds of this video and there is so much shit wrong.

- 1st they used his 3pt percentage in 95-96 , an unrepresentative career high from when the 3 pt line was moved in
- They extrapolate from his 86-88 scoring average when he was playing on bum teams and therefore shooting excessively
- They then modify his 86-88 scoring average by adding 17% due to increased pace/scoring, not from the 1988 season from which they took his scoring average but from the 1998 season, "his last season with the bulls". In 1988 the bulls scored 105 ppg at a pace of 95.5, in 1998 they scored 96.7 ppg at a pace of 89.0

It beggars belief that a multibillion dollar company could put out something so ****ing retarded. Shows what they think of NBA fans...

[3ball]

The hole in that argument is MJ is not good at 3’s. He’s not going to magically get better

Jordan is the best 2-point shooter ever, so why wouldn't he be a great 3-point shooter?.. his form didn't look perfect enough to you? You guys are the worst scouts ever.. don't EVER recommend a player to me.. I'll laugh in your face..

the funny thing is that you probably say Giannis will be a good shooter one day... newsflash - he won't... EVER... he literally looks like a beginner shooting jumpers, aka walking slowly up to the line and practically taking a set shot.. like a beginner

Btw, even the stats show that MJ always shot well at 3+ attempts, and otherwise took bailouts every year (less than 1.5 attempts every other year)

And it's not like you haven't seen him rain threes.. he reached Curry-level on the biggest stage.. he also won rings while shooting quite well - 39% on 4 attempts in the 93' Playoffs, 93' Finals, and 92' Finals

Again, you guys are horrific scouts. Stick to your number crunching

[GrayGoat]

Jordan is the best 2-point shooter ever, so why wouldn't he be a great 3-point shooter?.. his form didn't look perfect enough to you? You guys are the worst scouts ever.. don't EVER recommend a player to me.. I'll laugh in your face..

the funny thing is that you probably say Giannis will be a good shooter one day... newsflash - he won't... EVER... he literally looks like a beginner shooting jumpers, aka walking slowly up to the line and practically taking a set shot.. like a beginner

Btw, even the stats show that MJ always shot well at 3+ attempts, and otherwise took bailouts every year (less than 1.5 attempts every other year)

And it's not like you haven't seen him rain threes.. he reached Curry-level on the biggest stage.. he also won rings while shooting quite well - 39% on 4 attempts in the 93' Playoffs, 93' Finals, and 92' Finals

Again, you guys are horrific scouts. Stick to your number crunching

He already proved he wasn’t a good 3pt shooter even with the shortened WNBA line

[highwhey]

ESPN calculated the chances of OP being a fakkit at 100%

[StrongLurk]

You think MJ would take more than 30 shots a game?

Lets say he goes 16/32, 4/8 from three, and 9/10 from the line every game to get 45 points. Do you think that is actually realistic?

OP answer this lol. Show me MJ's scoring splits and volume.

[Roundball_Rock]

I watched 30 seconds of this video and there is so much shit wrong.

- 1st they used his 3pt percentage in 95-96 , an unrepresentative career high from when the 3 pt line was moved in
- They extrapolate from his 86-88 scoring average when he was playing on bum teams and therefore shooting excessively
- They then modify his 86-88 scoring average by adding 17% due to increased pace/scoring, not from the 1988 season from which they took his scoring average but from the 1998 season, "his last season with the bulls". In 1988 the bulls scored 105 ppg at a pace of 95.5, in 1998 they scored 96.7 ppg at a pace of 89.0

It beggars belief that a multibillion dollar company could put out something so ****ing retarded. Shows what they think of NBA fans...

Wow, that is damning in how deceptive that is. It shows how much they suck MJ off. That is a ridiculous scenario. Using 80's scoring but picking his team's lowest pace 10-12 years later. :lol

The 93' Bulls had a pace of 92.5 (Bulls were last in the league--Bulls were always a slow pace team, file this away when you see MJ stains deceptively post Bulls' teammate numbers against modern numbers). The average this year is 100.3. That is 8.4% higher. MJ scored 32.6 in 93'. On a team with average pace that gets him an extra 2.7 PPG to take him to 35.3 PPG. Factor in easier defenses=higher efficiency, give him a couple more points. That gets him to 37-38 PPG.

The threes thing is interesting because we know MJ wasn't good at the 3ball and didn't take them often. We can't just assume he would take 10 threes today. Look at Wade. Wade rarely took threes in his career. Or look at Butler. Not every star is raining threes. We don't know how MJ would behave today. If he took more threes, yeah, you can get him to 40-41 ish. Harden scored 36 so that is within range, but notably no one else has come close to Harden. KD's peak is 32, LeBron 31, Curry 30, etc.

Bottom line: 40ish is reasonable but 45 or 50 that you hear about is crazy talk.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Always a bad idea to assume how much better someone would be at something. Jordan could have been a better distance shooter if it was his focus but there's no easy way to quantify that.

[Micku]

Wow, that is damning in how deceptive that is. It shows how much they suck MJ off. That is a ridiculous scenario. Using 80's scoring but picking his team's lowest pace 10-12 years later. :lol

The 93' Bulls had a pace of 92.5 (Bulls were last in the league--Bulls were always a slow pace team, file this away when you see MJ stains deceptively post Bulls' teammate numbers against modern numbers). The average this year is 100.3. That is 8.4% higher. MJ scored 32.6 in 93'. On a team with average pace that gets him an extra 2.7 PPG to take him to 35.3 PPG. Factor in easier defenses=higher efficiency, give him a couple more points. That gets him to 37-38 PPG.

The threes thing is interesting because we know MJ wasn't good at the 3ball and didn't take them often. We can't just assume he would take 10 threes today. Look at Wade. Wade rarely took threes in his career. Or look at Butler. Not every star is raining threes. We don't know how MJ would behave today. If he took more threes, yeah, you can get him to 40-41 ish. Harden scored 36 so that is within range, but notably no one else has come close to Harden. KD's peak is 32, LeBron 31, Curry 30, etc.

Bottom line: 40ish is reasonable but 45 or 50 that you hear about is crazy talk.

Yeah dude. Bulls were continuously last or one of the last place in pacing. And for me, the reasons given isn't the reason why MJ would hypothetically score more.

It's the rules and the spacing. The spacing is soo much better now compared to when MJ played. You would have the SF, PF, and Cs clog the paint at times, that you would have to develop a mid range shot. You couldn't shoot the 3 cuz it was a bad shot. And in the 80s, it was up and down fastbreak basketball except for a couple of teams. And in the early 90s, it was still similar with the spacing.

And the rules also help. No 3 defensive sec, so a center or a pf could camp. Handchecking, but sometimes the refs would let that go today. The rules benefit more to the perimeter players nowadays. But it's not just that. It's the coaching philosophy. But that same coaching philosophy is against MJ's style of play. At the same time, you see Kawhi and Butler playing. KD also don't rely on the three either. So, I'm sure they would adjust for MJ's style. But MJ may take more 3s. And it also depends on the type of team he has. The worse the team, the more ppg he may have.

[Vragrant]

If Harden can average about 35ppg with about half his points coming from ref baiting, MJ definately averages 40ppg at least.

[3ball]

Always a bad idea to assume how much better someone would be at something. Jordan could have been a better distance shooter if it was his focus but there's no easy way to quantify that.

Have some faith in your eyes and scouting ability...

How did his jumpshot look - did it look like his jumper needed a lot of work, or just a focus on threes?..

did his jumper and jumpshooting skill look beginner like Giannis or Zion, or expert/goat?

He had goat form and is by far th most prolific 2-point jumpshooter ever... Do the math

[3ball]

You think MJ would take more than 30 shots a game?

Lets say he goes 16/32, 4/10 from three, and 9/10 from the line every game to get 45 points. Do you think that is actually realistic?
Fixed in bold above

(4/10 not 4/8.. he'd take more than 8 threes today... The most effective way to win is curry-style monster volume - so MJ would' do that)

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah dude. Bulls were continuously last or one of the last place in pacing. And for me, the reasons given isn't the reason why MJ would hypothetically score more.

It's the rules and the spacing. The spacing is soo much better now compared to when MJ played. You would have the SF, PF, and Cs clog the paint at times, that you would have to develop a mid range shot. You couldn't shoot the 3 cuz it was a bad shot. And in the 80s, it was up and down fastbreak basketball except for a couple of teams. And in the early 90s, it was still similar with the spacing.

And the rules also help. No 3 defensive sec, so a center or a pf could camp. Handchecking, but sometimes the refs would let that go today. The rules benefit more to the perimeter players nowadays. But it's not just that. It's the coaching philosophy. But that same coaching philosophy is against MJ's style of play. At the same time, you see Kawhi and Butler playing. KD also don't rely on the three either. So, I'm sure they would adjust for MJ's style. But MJ may take more 3s. And it also depends on the type of team he has. The worse the team, the more ppg he may have.

Good points. :cheers: I think at some point you just run out of possessions. When you are talking 45 PPG or 50 PPG like we hear with MJ that is a lot of shots. Let's use Harden from some back-of-envelope math.

Harden: 36 PPG on 25 FGA, 13 3PA, 11 FTA

45 is 25% more than 36. So let's inflate all those numbers 25%.


Harden: 36 PPG on 25 FGA, 13 3PA, 11 FTA
Jordan?: 45 PPG on 31 FGA, 16 3PA, 14 FTA

Different players so you wouldn't have MJ taking 16 3PA but you get the point. 31 shots a game. The average team took 89 FGA this year. MJ would have to take 35% of shots. MJ took 29% in 93', his highest scoring peak year. Even in 87' on a team with no second scorer, he took "only" 32%.

MJ would need to take even more shots than this scenario because he wouldn't be taking 16 threes a game in any scenario and he is a worse FT shooter than Harden (although he could get more FT volume). You probably would need MJ at 35+ shots a game. Yeah, he could get to the basket at will and score in the post but like I said at the outset, at some point you run out of possessions.

[goozeman]

Have some faith in your eyes and scouting ability...

How did his jumpshot look - did it look like his jumper needed a lot of work, or just a focus on threes?..

did his jumper and jumpshooting skill look beginner like Giannis or Zion, or expert/goat?

He had goat form and is by far th most prolific 2-point jumpshooter ever... Do the math



Don't even have to do that. Just look at how much he improved during his career. Jordan went from shooting heaves and shot clock beaters at 18% first five years of his career to shooting in the mid-30's percentages once he began incorporating the three-point shot more into his scoring repertoire. He wouldn't have any trouble being an effective outside shooter today. Would he be Curry or Thompson? No. But he could easily shooting in the mid-30's or possibly even a little better, which is good enough. If he actually developed in an era with a three-point shot it's reasonable to assume he would be very effective given all of his prodigious talent.

[8Ball]

When Jordan scored 37 ppg his team won 40-42 and he got swept in the first round.

[SATAN]

ESPN is terrible for basketball tbh. I can't believe the garbage they come up with, regardless if MJ somehow did average that (unlikely).

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Wow, that is damning in how deceptive that is. It shows how much they suck MJ off. That is a ridiculous scenario. Using 80's scoring but picking his team's lowest pace 10-12 years later. :lol

The 93' Bulls had a pace of 92.5 (Bulls were last in the league--Bulls were always a slow pace team, file this away when you see MJ stains deceptively post Bulls' teammate numbers against modern numbers). The average this year is 100.3. That is 8.4% higher. MJ scored 32.6 in 93'. On a team with average pace that gets him an extra 2.7 PPG to take him to 35.3 PPG. Factor in easier defenses=higher efficiency, give him a couple more points. That gets him to 37-38 PPG.

The threes thing is interesting because we know MJ wasn't good at the 3ball and didn't take them often. We can't just assume he would take 10 threes today. Look at Wade. Wade rarely took threes in his career. Or look at Butler. Not every star is raining threes. We don't know how MJ would behave today. If he took more threes, yeah, you can get him to 40-41 ish. Harden scored 36 so that is within range, but notably no one else has come close to Harden. KD's peak is 32, LeBron 31, Curry 30, etc.

Bottom line: 40ish is reasonable but 45 or 50 that you hear about is crazy talk.

Yeah, I'm legit not even hating. If Jordan was on a team like the Rockets, Washington or Atlanta where he plays no defence and just isos with spacing everytime, I could easily see him hanging like 37-40 ppg over multiple seasons. If he's on a normal team probably low to mid 30s.

But the logic used in that video is just ****ing stupid.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I think he would peak around 27-28ppg due to lack of 3pt efficacy, and more sophisticated defenses

Basically 2017 Derozan is what we would expect.

45ppg is laughable and Jordan brand is the biggest influencer in sports media. Take it with a grain of salt

[3ball]

I think he would peak around 27-28ppg due to lack of 3pt efficacy, and more sophisticated defenses

Basically 2017 Derozan is what we would expect.

45ppg is laughable and Jordan brand is the biggest influencer in sports media. Take it with a grain of salt

Jimmy Butler just showed that you can get 40/12/13 in today's Finals with zero threes.

So you're wrong, and Butler proves the OP

(Butler is a homeless man's Jordan.. he actually let us know that MJ would've won this year with the Heat... Butler would've won himself with just a smidgen of help, or if he was MJ)

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jimmy Butler just showed that you can get 40/12/13 in today's Finals with zero threes.

So you're wrong, and Butler proves the OP (he's a homeless man's Jordan.. he actually let us know that MJ would've won this year with the Heat... Butler would've won himself with just a smidgen of help, or if he was MJ)

Butler is a 20ppg scorer

That's your example? :oldlol:

2 game sample size doesn't prove anything, Butler is a 20ppg scorer because he lacks a 3pt shot. You made my point

[And1AllDay]

If Harden can average about 35ppg with about half his points coming from ref baiting, MJ definately averages 40ppg at least.


we saw mikes first chance at modern defense in the 96 finals when a actual non plumber was guarding him on perimeter

27 on 41%

we seen enough

stick kawhi on him and hes doing 23 on 38%

next

[3ball]

we saw mikes first chance at modern defense in the 96 finals when a actual non plumber was guarding him on perimeter

27 on 41%

we seen enough

stick kawhi on him and hes doing 23 on 38%

next

27 on 42% carried his sidekick (15 on 34%).. so it was still a carry-job.. MJ has 6 carry-job, 1-man team rings..

and MJ was planning his vacation while Payton was trying to save face and the refs didn't show up (figuring it was over)

It's an irrelevant 2 games that MJ shot poorly (he shot fine in game 5)

[Roundball_Rock]

Butler is a 20ppg scorer

That's your example? :oldlol:


:roll:

1-9ball is talking about MJ going from 33 PPG in the 90's to 45 PPG today--yet in another active thread is posting Pippen stats against this era stats without saying a word about any increase for MJ's teammate on the same team, in the same offense. MJ stans are shameless. They just hope no one catches this BS and hypocrisy. :lol

[light]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWFro6OQqHY&t=0m54s

Huh. So he would be like a James Harden that passes less.

Cute. LeBron would still be the best player in the league.

[Lebron23]

If Harden can average about 35ppg with about half his points coming from ref baiting, MJ definately averages 40ppg at least.

Jordan was a terrible 3 points shooter. He shot 19% from the 3 points area when he played for the wizards in the zone defense era.

[Micku]

Jordan was a terrible 3 points shooter. He shot 19% from the 3 points area when he played for the wizards in the zone defense era.

Eh. He barely took'em. Bird also shot horribly from the 3pt line a few seasons where he barely took'em. MJ didn't even average 1 3pa on the wiz. Barely if you round up. He had seasons where he shot 37.6% and 35%. And the playoffs he shot better at times. This is pre the shorten line too.

He ain't the best 3pt shooter in the world. But you shouldn't leave him open either.

[light]

Eh. He barely took'em. Bird also shot horribly from the 3pt line a few seasons where he barely took'em. MJ didn't even average 1 3pa on the wiz. Barely if you round up. He had seasons where he shot 37.6% and 35%. And the playoffs he shot better at times. This is pre the shorten line too.

He ain't the best 3pt shooter in the world. But you shouldn't leave him open either.

He barely took them because he wasnt comfortable taking them. He said so himself that he would rather not.

Teams left him open all the time. Jordan wrote that even when teams gave him an open three he would still drive.

Jordan still holds the record for the worst performance in the three point shooting contest, so even when he's alone he's still bad at it.

[3ball]

Jordan was a terrible 3 points shooter. He shot 19% from the 3 points area when he played for the wizards in the zone defense era.
Only bailouts though - less than 0.9 attempt each year

Anytime he had a modicum of volume, he shot well

It's just a historical fact

And I'll never understand how you guys can look at his form and question his ability like he's Giannis or Zion or something this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1NdwGRY3xwo&t=06m22s) form). it's ridiculous and indicates a complete inability to evaluate talent

Regarding the Wizards - he had no legs- he shot a kind of long range shot that required a LITTLE bit of leg exertion to help versus contests

So it shouldn't be a surprise that his percentage dipped as a Wizard when he had no legs many 2nd halves and each jumper put pressure on his knees.

[dankok8]

Peak Jordan could average around 40 ppg IMO and of course with great efficiency. He really had no weaknesses as a scorer. Absolutely elite finisher at the basket, killer in the low post, money from midrange, amazing at getting into the paint getting to the free throw line and sinking free throws and above average from 3pt range. It's not impossible that an aggressive MJ could average 15-17 free throw attempts in today's game.

[And1AllDay]

When Jordan scored 37 ppg his team won 40-42 and he got swept in the first round.

hes just a tall allen iverson without pippen defense to halp or papa phil

[GrayGoat]

Can we just merge all of 3ball’s threads? They all end the same way with him flummoxed and bamboozled

[And1AllDay]

27 on 42% carried his sidekick (15 on 34%).. so it was still a carry-job.. MJ has 6 carry-job, 1-man team rings..

and MJ was planning his vacation while Payton was trying to save face and the refs didn't show up (figuring it was over)

It's an irrelevant 2 games that MJ shot poorly (he shot fine in game 5)

carry jobs??????????

1991 finals NO, pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
1992 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
1993 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
1996 finals YES, pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
1997 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 33.3%
1998 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 46.7%


what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL? 1 'carry job'

[3ball]

carry jobs??????????

1991 finals NO, pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
1992 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
1993 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
1996 finals YES, pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
1997 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 33.3%
1998 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 46.7%


what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL? 1 'carry job'

When did pippen outscore the #1 option and league MVP though?

You're saying it's easy to win when pippen scores 1 more point than the opposing 2nd option, so it's even easier to win when Kyrie scores 5 more than the 1st option

L time boss..

[Roundball_Rock]

carry jobs??????????

1991 finals NO, pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
1992 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
1993 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
1996 finals YES, pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
1997 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 33.3%
1998 finals NO, pip out scored #2 option on suns by 46.7%


what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL? 1 'carry job'

Thanks for the numbers. Damn, I didn't realize Pippen was that much better than the comp scoring-wise. :bowdown:

[And1AllDay]

Thanks for the numbers. Damn, I didn't realize Pippen was that much better than the comp scoring-wise. :bowdown:

you got it dr. rock!

cant believ we see this shit :oldlol: 3ballllllllllllll led us there too hhahaaha

anyway yea, crazy to see pip beasting and only a deficit or 'carry' job for mike 1 year and still lower carry than brans carry in 2012

the bois

:dancin

just

:hammertime:

win
:djparty

[Micku]

He barely took them because he wasnt comfortable taking them. He said so himself that he would rather not.

Teams left him open all the time. Jordan wrote that even when teams gave him an open three he would still drive.

Jordan still holds the record for the worst performance in the three point shooting contest, so even when he's alone he's still bad at it.

He never liked or settle for taking 3s. I think he mentioned it while they did a comparison with Clyde and his performance in game 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU

But it wasn't like he was bad at taking 3s in general. We're not talking Celtics Rondo or Tony Allen. He was better than D-Wade at it. And had impressive seasons and playoff runs of it. He shot over 38% the first 3peat where he shot over 1.5 on average. Not to say he didn't have seasons where he shot over 1 3pa, where he it wasn't stellar in the playoffs. You had 90, 98. And in 97 when it was short. You may say the attempts didn't have volume, but he shot a better percentage than Clyde in 90. He shot better than Chris Mullin. But with the volume case, you can a similar case of Larry Bird as well.

And speaking of Larry Bird on the Bill Simmions podcast, he said something similar to MJ. He didn't like the iso ball or anything where he's out on the island, staring down at his opponent. He felt like it's bad basketball. I don't think he mention necessary taking the 3pt shot. But he prefers to take it to the paint and talks about how the midrange game is kind'a gone nowadays.
Here talking about passing and the shot selection:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USd3YagNFXY#t=24m50s

Here talking about iso:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USd3YagNFXY#t=25m50s

But from the games that I watched, it wasn't like they kept him open. It wasn't like how they guard players in the 80s or anything They gave you the shot unless you were a sniper. But it was a bad shot then. With MJ, naw. But in general, they rather anyone take a 3pt shot than a lay up. Basically, he's a rhythm dude. He's better taking it than what ppl nowadays give him credit for imo. He is not bad, but he isn't a Bird, Miller or Chris Mullin in his era. Like just because he shot a high percentage in couple of seasons, it don't mean he's a better 3pt shooter. But I do think it isn't a weakness.

[3ball]

Thanks for the numbers. Damn, I didn't realize Pippen was that much better than the comp scoring-wise. :bowdown:

Pippen was matched or outscored in 42% of playoff series

He averaged 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

he never dominated any matchup... There was always someone comparable to oppose him on the other side..

And his many horrible series came in the BIGGEST series.. you're lauding pippen for outscoring an opposing 2nd option, but lebron's biggest win came with his 2nd option destroying their 1st option

[And1AllDay]

Pippen was matched or outscored in 42% of playoff series

He averaged 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

he never dominated any matchup... There was always someone comparable to oppose him on the other side..

And his many horrible series came in the BIGGEST series.. you're lauding pippen for outscoring an opposing 2nd option, but lebron's biggest win came with his 2nd option destroying their 1st option

finals ppgz

pippen vs opponent #2

1991 finals pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
1992 finals pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
1993 finals pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
1996 finals pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
1997 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 33.3%
1998 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 46.7%


what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL?

[3ball]

finals ppgz

pippen vs opponent #2

1991 finals pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
1992 finals pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
1993 finals pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
1996 finals pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
1997 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 33.3%
1998 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 46.7%


what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL?

You're lauding pippen for outscoring an opposing 2nd option, but lebron's biggest win came with his 2nd option destroying their 1st option (impossible to lose)

Pippen was outscored or matched in 42% of playoff series, with most of those in the biggest series, aka 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

he never dominated any matchup... There was always someone comparable to oppose him on the other side..

[And1AllDay]

You're lauding pippen for outscoring an opposing 2nd option, but lebron's biggest win came with his 2nd option destroying their 1st option (impossible to lose)

Pippen was outscored or matched in 42% of playoff series, with most of those in the biggest series, aka 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

he never dominated any matchup... There was always someone comparable to oppose him on the other side..



finals ppgz comparing #2 options
pippen vs opponent #2 option

1991 finals pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
1992 finals pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
1993 finals pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
1996 finals pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
1997 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 33.3%
1998 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 46.7%

pip outscored finals #2 in 5/6 times

AND WE HAVENT EVEN TALKED DEFENSE, REBOUNDING, ASSIST, STEALS, BLKS, MY BOI


what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL?


https://i.postimg.cc/CKxTpwg4/4a4.gif

[3ball]

finals ppgz comparing #2 options
pippen vs opponent #2 option

1991 finals pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
1992 finals pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
1993 finals pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
1996 finals pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
1997 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 33.3%
1998 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 46.7%

pip outscored finals #2 in 5/6 times

AND WE HAVENT EVEN TALKED DEFENSE, REBOUNDING, ASSIST, STEALS, BLKS, MY BOI


what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL?


https://i.postimg.cc/CKxTpwg4/4a4.gif

pippen was outscored or matched in 42% of playoff series, with most of those in the biggest series, aka 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

Lebron's #2 had to share with a star #3 so lebron had 2 pippen's sharing

[And1AllDay]

pippen was outscored or matched in 42% of playoff series, with most of those in the biggest series, aka 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

Lebron's #2 had to share with a star #3 so lebron had 2 pippen's sharing

https://i.postimg.cc/V6CnCshq/tenor.gif

[madmax]

we saw mikes first chance at modern defense in the 96 finals when a actual non plumber was guarding him on perimeter

27 on 41%

we seen enough

stick kawhi on him and hes doing 23 on 38%

next

:cheers:

[nayte]

I'm getting so confused. Is espn now good or not.

[Bronbron23]

He could but he wouldn't. He was smart enough to accept that team ball with alot of on and off ball movement was the key to winning. In a sytem like that no individual is gonna have the crazy numbers that guys get playing in ball dominant systems. Today he'd maybe have 35/7/7 or something like that.

[HoopsNY]

I watched 30 seconds of this video and there is so much shit wrong.

- 1st they used his 3pt percentage in 95-96 , an unrepresentative career high from when the 3 pt line was moved in
- They extrapolate from his 86-88 scoring average when he was playing on bum teams and therefore shooting excessively
- They then modify his 86-88 scoring average by adding 17% due to increased pace/scoring, not from the 1988 season from which they took his scoring average but from the 1998 season, "his last season with the bulls". In 1988 the bulls scored 105 ppg at a pace of 95.5, in 1998 they scored 96.7 ppg at a pace of 89.0

It beggars belief that a multibillion dollar company could put out something so ****ing retarded. Shows what they think of NBA fans...

I haven't watched the video but thank you for that take. It's ridiculous to think that MJ would average 45 points in today's game.

For one, just because he would shoot a higher volume of 3's and was able to shoot a higher percentage when he did in his career, does not mean he would suddenly shoot better from the distance in today's era.

At best, I think MJ is a 36% 3 point shooter in today's era, mostly because hand checking has been removed and it would open up the perimeter a little better.

He would have to shoot a ton from the distance to average 45 and that would significantly lower his fg%.

[Phoenix]

Alot of players could score more than their averages say in the right situation, but very rarely does this produce fruit as far as winning chips. Harden has dropped 36 and 34 the last two years and gotten bounced in the 2nd round. Kobe did 35 and that took him no further than the first round. I 'think' the record for PPG on a championship team is 32.6 by MJ in 93 ( someone will correct me if I'm wrong). MJ was doing 29-33 on his championship teams, not the 37 and 35 he was dropping in 87 and 88. Those solo numbers are gaudy but no one has won a chip scoring that much.

[HoopsNY]

Alot of players could score more than their averages say in the right situation, but very rarely does this produce fruit as far as winning chips. Harden has dropped 36 and 34 the last two years and gotten bounced in the 2nd round. Kobe did 35 and that took him no further than the first round. I 'think' the record for PPG on a championship team is 32.6 by MJ in 93 ( someone will correct me if I'm wrong). MJ was doing 29-33 on his championship teams, not the 37 and 35 he was dropping in 87 and 88. Those solo numbers are gaudy but no one has won a chip scoring that much.

You're right. It's really a useless point to say he would drop 45. That doesn't produce championships and is irrelevant. Knowing the type of player that he became, I honestly think he would hover around the 30-32 mark, though his efficiency numbers might go up a bit and his assists might climb 1-2 a game as well.

[LonelyOwl]

https://youtu.be/jsjukb2NttM


https://i.postimg.cc/Bv30X1w1/tenor-22.gif

[Phoenix]

You're right. It's really a useless point to say he would drop 45. That doesn't produce championships and is irrelevant. Knowing the type of player that he became, I honestly think he would hover around the 30-32 mark, though his efficiency numbers might go up a bit and his assists might climb 1-2 a game as well.

I think his 93 averages would be a fair guess of his numbers on a contending team today. 33/7/6 on 49%/35% from 3. I actually don't think he significantly increases his 3 point attempts. You had Westbrook drop 31 as recently as 3 years ago and shot 34% from 3, and was a significantly worse overall shooter and lower IQ offensive player in general.

[HoopsNY]

I think his 93 averages would be a fair guess of his numbers on a contending team today. 33/7/6 on 49%/35% from 3. I actually don't think he significantly increases his 3 point attempts. You had Westbrook drop 31 as recently as 3 years ago and shot 34% from 3, and was a significantly worse overall shooter and lower IQ offensive player in general.

Yea. Though I think his FG% would go up a bit given the way the post/perimeter defense is played in today's game. I think the contesting at the 3 point line is bad, but have you seen mid-range? It's worse. And that was Mike's bread and butter.

I'd say 33/8/7 is very possible on 52%/35-36%.

[Phoenix]

Yea. Though I think his FG% would go up a bit given the way the post/perimeter defense is played in today's game. I think the contesting at the 3 point line is bad, but have you seen mid-range? It's worse. And that was Mike's bread and butter.

I'd say 33/8/7 is very possible on 52%/35-36%.

Yeah the court is so spread that once he's beaten his man there's not a ton of resistance in the midrange or at the rim since the bigs are increasingly being drawn out of the paint. Between his slashing, probably getting 10-12 free throws, mixing up some quick post ups and midrange, he's not going to need a ton of 3s to break 30. He'll also play off the ball scoring off catch and shoots.

[And1AllDay]

https://youtu.be/jsjukb2NttM


https://i.postimg.cc/Bv30X1w1/tenor-22.gif


wrap it up

[Roundball_Rock]

I think his 93 averages would be a fair guess of his numbers on a contending team today. 33/7/6 on 49%/35% from 3. I actually don't think he significantly increases his 3 point attempts. You had Westbrook drop 31 as recently as 3 years ago and shot 34% from 3, and was a significantly worse overall shooter and lower IQ offensive player in general.

You think he wouldn't get a boost due to faster pace, weaker defenses (which would increase his efficiency), etc.?

[Bronbron23]

I think his 93 averages would be a fair guess of his numbers on a contending team today. 33/7/6 on 49%/35% from 3. I actually don't think he significantly increases his 3 point attempts. You had Westbrook drop 31 as recently as 3 years ago and shot 34% from 3, and was a significantly worse overall shooter and lower IQ offensive player in general.

He'd definitely shoot an extra 3 or two. I dont see his efficiency going up much. Maybe a little just because he'd make it more of a focus of his game. Nothing drastic though.

And 33 pts seems low even in more of a team system. Much lesser talented scorees are putting up 30 now because of the defensive rules and pace. No reason why mj isnt at least somewhere in the 35-38 range.

[3ball]

I think his 93 averages would be a fair guess of his numbers on a contending team today. 33/7/6 on 49%/35% from 3. I actually don't think he significantly increases his 3 point attempts. You had Westbrook drop 31 as recently as 3 years ago and shot 34% from 3, and was a significantly worse overall shooter and lower IQ offensive player in general.

33/7/6 for MJ, but guys like Westbrook and Harden are getting 30-point triple-doubles?

Makes no sense

If MJ employed today's style, he would get 8-10 APG and 35-45 ppg, depending on whether he's on a contender or not

[GrayGoat]

33/7/6 for MJ, but guys like Westbrook and Harden are getting 30-point triple-doubles?

Makes no sense

If MJ employed today's style, he would get 8-10 APG and 35-45 ppg, depending on whether he's on a contender or not

In order to get 45ppg MJ would have to hijack the offense while simultaneously lowering his teams potential ala 80’s bulls

[Phoenix]

You think he wouldn't get a boost due to faster pace, weaker defenses (which would increase his efficiency), etc.?

Probably moreso in efficiency than a dramatic boost in PPG. I don't expect any wild increases in scoring average from his peak, unless he's on some 20 win team where they need 35+ from him just to be competitive. On a contending team I'd give him 32-33points, 7 rebounds, maybe 7 assists. I'm also assuming he isn't playing in the triangle which does deflate individual assist numbers. I think the idea of him doing 45 is silly. 40 is too. Its just not a practical situation for a player to consume that much of the offense if the goal is to win.

[3ball]

In order to get 45ppg MJ would have to hijack the offense while simultaneously lowering his teams potential ala 80’s bulls

No he just needs a shitty team that needs him to average 45 to be .500... Like 1987

[Phoenix]

33/7/6 for MJ, but guys like Westbrook and Harden are getting 30-point triple-doubles?

Makes no sense

If MJ employed today's style, he would get 8-10 APG and 35-45 ppg, depending on whether he's on a contender or not

Westbrook was having his bigs clear out for him to get those 10 boards. I'm saying MJ can get 7 boards organically without tricks to boost his rebounding in order to meet the quota for a triple double. Harden and Westbrook are also high usage guys so how they go about getting their stats in different. MJ played alot more off the ball especially in the championship years. That allowed the team offense to flourish. Compare that to all the standing around the Rockets do watching Harden dribble the ball for 3/4 of the shot clock. Stats need to be contextualized with team role and player tendencies.

[3ball]

Westbrook was having his bigs clear out for him to get those 10 boards. I'm saying MJ can get 7 boards organically without tricks to boost his rebounding in order to meet the quota for a triple double.

Guards get a lot of rebounds in today's game because the bigs get drawn out of the paint - Jordan would benenefit just like any other player has

[Phoenix]

Guards get a lot of rebounds in today's game because the bigs get drawn out of the paint - Jordan would benenefit just like any other player has

Maybe but how wild a difference are we talking? Harden has averaged 6 rebounds the last 8 years as a Rocket with a peak of 8. MJ will probably do 7 alot of years and the odd season of 8. Most players have some kind of variance in their numbers year to year.

[Phoenix]

He'd definitely shoot an extra 3 or two. I dont see his efficiency going up much. Maybe a little just because he'd make it more of a focus of his game. Nothing drastic though.

And 33 pts seems low even in more of a team system. Much lesser talented scorees are putting up 30 now because of the defensive rules and pace. No reason why mj isnt at least somewhere in the 35-38 range.

Not all 30ppg are equal though, that's why you have to look at the games. Beal put up 30ppg but is that equal to a KD or Steph 30ppg year? Not at all. Players can average similar surface numbers without meaning they're equal in ability.

[3ball]

Maybe but how wild a difference are we talking? Harden has averaged 6 rebounds the last 8 years as a Rocket with a peak of 8. MJ will probably do 7 alot of years and the odd season of 8. Most players have some kind of variance in their numbers year to year.

Westbrook averaged 10 boards and Jordan is bigger, stronger and more explosive

So MJ would average 12-15 rebounds based on Westbrook getting 10

[HoopsNY]

33/7/6 for MJ, but guys like Westbrook and Harden are getting 30-point triple-doubles?

Makes no sense

If MJ employed today's style, he would get 8-10 APG and 35-45 ppg, depending on whether he's on a contender or not

Guys like Harden flop, travel, and abuse the system to inflate their stats. Guys like Westbrook box out teammates to stat pad.

Guys like MJ lead teams to championships. There's no shame in 33/8/7 or whatever if you're getting results.

[HoopsNY]

Westbrook averaged 10 boards and Jordan is bigger, stronger and more explosive

So MJ would average 12-15 rebounds based on Westbrook getting 10

Maybe as an outlier MJ averages 9-10. I don't see 12-15, c'mon. Stop being a homer.

And as it was previously stated. Westbrook's teammates clear out so he could get the rebounds. It's literally bs basketball that exists in today's game, yet the era of the "plumbers and janitors" gets criticized. Smh.

[3ball]

Guys like Harden flop, travel, and abuse the system to inflate their stats. Guys like Westbrook box out teammates to stat pad.

Guys like MJ lead teams to championships. There's no shame in 33/8/7 or whatever if you're getting results.

33 for Jordan in today's game?

You're a dumbass

He averaged 35 ppg in the 92' and 93' Playoffs, but 33 in today's higher pace and spav e?

You're literally stupid

[dbugz]

GOAT

https://image-cdn.essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/20200827163703/michael-jordan-3.jpg

[HoopsNY]

33 for Jordan in today's game?

You're a dumbass

He averaged 35 ppg in the 92' and 93' Playoffs, but 33 in today's higher pace and spav e?

You're literally stupid

Bro why are you such an extreme MJ fan, like seriously? What makes you think MJ would do that when it doesn't generally produce results? I never said MJ was incapable of scoring 35 PPG. But being capable and actually doing it are two different things. If MJ goes out there and plays iso ball, you can almost guarantee the team doesn't win titles.

[3ball]

Bro why are you such an extreme MJ fan, like seriously? What makes you think MJ would do that when it doesn't generally produce results? I never said MJ was incapable of scoring 35 PPG. But being capable and actually doing it are two different things. If MJ goes out there and plays iso ball, you can almost guarantee the team doesn't win titles.

Why can't you refute the point being made or concede?

If Jordan routinely averaged 35+ while winning rings then why would he get 33 in today's higherpace and space?

[HoopsNY]

Why can't you refute the point being made or concede?

If Jordan routinely averaged 35+ while winning rings then why would he get 33 in today's higherpace and space?

Because we're discussing the regular season. We're not discussing the playoffs.

[Bronbron23]

Not all 30ppg are equal though, that's why you have to look at the games. Beal put up 30ppg but is that equal to a KD or Steph 30ppg year? Not at all. Players can average similar surface numbers without meaning they're equal in ability.

Yeah true but theres more now than ever it seems. I do think it depends on what system he's playing in. In a system like the warriors or spurs that uses more on and off ball movement i dont think mj would average that much more. In a ball dominant system like luka and harden he would definitely average quite a bit more. 45 is still a stretch though

[RogueBorg]

When Jordan scored 37 ppg his team won 40-42 and he got swept in the first round.

Because they played a team with 4 future Hall of Famers.

[3ball]

Because we're discussing the regular season. We're not discussing the playoffs.

Jordan averaged 33 in the regular season while winning rings

So why would he average the same in today's higher pace and space?

It's sheer bias and stupidity

[Phoenix]

Westbrook averaged 10 boards and Jordan is bigger, stronger and more explosive

So MJ would average 12-15 rebounds based on Westbrook getting 10

That's like, Giannis rebounding numbers....

[Phoenix]

Yeah true but theres more now than ever it seems. I do think it depends on what system he's playing in. In a system like the warriors or spurs that uses more on and off ball movement i dont think mj would average that much more. In a ball dominant system like luka and harden he would definitely average quite a bit more. 45 is still a stretch though

That's what I was saying before, what kind of system is he playing in? The triangle deflated his stats from late 80s but he won more. If you just give him the ball like they do Harden/Westbrook/Luka then yes, I'm more inclined to inflate his numbers accordingly. He's probably more likely to win doing 33/8/7 than 36/11/9 iso ball.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan averaged 33 in the regular season while winning rings

So why would he average the same in today's higher pace and space?

It's sheer bias and stupidity

That is a good point, but it's also an outlier of all his championship years. I see what you mean, though. 35 PPG is possible. Still though, 45 is outlandish.

[Roundball_Rock]

Probably moreso in efficiency than a dramatic boost in PPG. I don't expect any wild increases in scoring average from his peak, unless he's on some 20 win team where they need 35+ from him just to be competitive. On a contending team I'd give him 32-33points, 7 rebounds, maybe 7 assists. I'm also assuming he isn't playing in the triangle which does deflate individual assist numbers. I think the idea of him doing 45 is silly. 40 is too. Its just not a practical situation for a player to consume that much of the offense if the goal is to win.

True, no team is going to let any player shoot enough to sniff 45. 40 I can see since Harden was at 36 for the season and was at 38 or so for about half the season.


That's like, Giannis rebounding numbers....

Yeah, that is the problem you get with some of these video game MJ assumptions. He would be Giannis on the glass, he would be scoring 45 in an era where KD's peak was 32, etc.


Jordan averaged 33 in the regular season while winning rings

So why would he average the same in today's higher pace and space?

It's sheer bias and stupidity

You tell us. You and your disciples say Pippen, Kukoc, Grant, BJ, etc. would score the same or even less today. Spacing, pace, less rim protection, weaker defensive rules, etc. None of that applies to them. Weren't these people on the same team in the same offense with the same pace and the same opposition as MJ? :confusedshrug:



Because they played a team with 4 future Hall of Famers.

Because they were the 8 seed. Besides, now how many HOF you have versus the other team matters? 3 vs. 1 doesn't matter, doe?

[GrayGoat]

3ball getting cooked in here :biggums:

[3ball]

Probably moreso in efficiency than a dramatic boost in PPG. I don't expect any wild increases in scoring average from his peak, unless he's on some 20 win team where they need 35+ from him just to be competitive. On a contending team I'd give him 32-33points, 7 rebounds, maybe 7 assists. I'm also assuming he isn't playing in the triangle which does deflate individual assist numbers. I think the idea of him doing 45 is silly. 40 is too. Its just not a practical situation for a player to consume that much of the offense if the goal is to win.
But that's what Jordan did while winning - he consumed a ridiculous amount of the offense - the most ever by far

He scored 38% of his team's points in the 93' and 98' Finals or 33% in various championship regular seasons - if you give him the same load in today's higher pace and drtg, that's 45+ easily

You're just biased and not going by the math

[Trollsmasher]

But that's what Jordan did while winning - he consumed a ridiculous amount of the offense - the most ever by far

He scored 38% of his team's points in the 93' and 98' Finals or 33% in various championship regular seasons - if you give him the same load in today's higher pace and drtg, that's 45+ easily

You're just biased and not going by the math
yes and he only won because we was on a stacked team and playing in a weak era

this kind of inefficient chucking wouldn't fly today so you can't give him that load

[Phoenix]

But that's what Jordan did while winning - he consumed a ridiculous amount of the offense - the most ever by far

He scored 38% of his team's points in the 93' and 98' Finals or 33% in various championship regular seasons - if you give him the same load in today's higher pace and drtg, that's 45+ easily

You're just biased and not going by the math

Biased when you know I'm an MJ guy? Interesting take.

[3ball]

Biased when you know I'm an MJ guy? Interesting take.

Who cares if you're an MJ guy if your math is wrong and you're getting it wrong?

If MJ already averaged 33 on championship runs, then why would he get 33 in today's higher pace and drtg?

And don't bother answer I don't care.. I know you're a scared dope and know nothing.. I've read enough of your garbage

[Roundball_Rock]

But that's what Jordan did while winning - he consumed a ridiculous amount of the offense - the most ever by far

This is a big admission. So MJ consumed a record level of the offense, then his stans toward around and complain his teammates didn't score enough (even though they proved to be top 10 in scoring w/out MJ)? :lol


If MJ already averaged 33 on championship runs, then why would he get 33 in today's higher pace and drtg?

The hypocrisy is shameless.



And don't bother answer I don't care.. I know you're a scared dope and know nothing.. I've read enough of your garbage

Phoenix is one of the best posters on the site; you are a jizz rag who gets "trained" in every thread you enter.

[Phoenix]

Who cares if you're an MJ guy if your math is wrong and you're getting it wrong?

If MJ already averaged 33 on championship runs, then why would he get 33 in today's higher pace and drtg?

And don't bother answer I don't care.. I know you're a scared dope and know nothing.. I've read enough of your garbage

You're a fukking idiot, dude. Some deranged loser with 28,000 posts on the only basketball forum desperate enough to think the traffic you draw is worth keeping you around for. You've done more to damage MJs legacy than any of anti-Jordan crowd on this site. Countless hours wasted defending MJ and attacking Lebron when neither know you exist or give a fukk about you. How sad and pathetic is your life,really?

[Phoenix]

This is a big admission. So MJ consumed a record level of the offense, then his stans toward around and complain his teammates didn't score enough (even though they proved to be top 10 in scoring w/out MJ)? :lol



The hypocrisy is shameless.



Phoenix is one of the best posters on the site; you are a jizz rag who gets "trained" in every thread you enter.

:cheers:

Someone needs to keep suicide hotline on standby. Guys about to leak blood right out of his brain and probably off himself if Lebron wins next year.

[MadDog]

45 points is laughable. Although Prime Mcgrady, Iverson and Carmelo would be Harden-like scorers today. Low to mid 30s if their coach gives them the green light. Prime Jordan would dominate too obviously.

[Manny98]

Westbrook averaged 10 boards and Jordan is bigger, stronger and more explosive

So MJ would average 12-15 rebounds based on Westbrook getting 10
:roll:

[highwhey]

3ball getting curb stomped in this thread

[GrayGoat]

3ball getting curb stomped in this thread

Pretty much every thread he makes he gets curb stomped lol

[Bronbron23]

That's what I was saying before, what kind of system is he playing in? The triangle deflated his stats from late 80s but he won more. If you just give him the ball like they do Harden/Westbrook/Luka then yes, I'm more inclined to inflate his numbers accordingly. He's probably more likely to win doing 33/8/7 than 36/11/9 iso ball.

Yeah i agree with that

[OldSchoolBBall]

You think MJ would take more than 30 shots a game?

Lets say he goes 16/32, 4/8 from three, and 9/10 from the line every game to get 45 points. Do you think that is actually realistic?

Jordan would shoot WAAAY better than 50% FG today. Dude would be getting into the lane to finish all day, get fouled, or pull up from midrange for wide open jumpers due to the spacing and non-existent defense today. He'd be like 16/28 FG, 1.6/4.5 3FGA, 11+ FTM every game for 40+ ppg.

[Shooter]

3ball getting curb stomped in this thread


Pretty much every thread he makes he gets curb stomped lol

:lol

[Shooter]

Jordan would shoot WAAAY better than 50% FG today. Dude would be getting into the lane to finish all day, get fouled, or pull up from midrange for wide open jumpers due to the spacing and non-existent defense today. He'd be like 16/28 FG, 1.6/4.5 3FGA, 11+ FTM every game for 40+ ppg.

The 1st time in his career he faced good perimeter defense he did 26 on 40% in the 96 Finals. In the modern era with big wings he's doing DeMar type numbers, so like 22 on 40%

[HoopsNY]

The 1st time in his career he faced good perimeter defense he did 26 on 40% in the 96 Finals. In the modern era with big wings he's doing DeMar type numbers, so like 22 on 40%

Because the Bucks and Pistons didn't have great perimeter defense, nor did the Celtics or Knicks. Right. Carry on mate. #TheHateisReal

[Shooter]

Because the Bucks and Pistons didn't have great perimeter defense, nor did the Celtics or Knicks. Right. Carry on mate. #TheHateisReal

KNICKS?! No.
Bucks, okay maybe
Pistons? Ehhh, Dumars is overrated
Celtics? No

So thats like 1.25

[HoopsNY]

KNICKS?! No.
Bucks, okay maybe
Pistons? Ehhh, Dumars is overrated
Celtics? No

So thats like 1.25

"Dumars is overrated." Did you even watch him play? 5x All-Defensive and was a great defender, but he's "overrated."

Starks+Harper were a great defensive backcourt. Moncrief was a great defensive player. 41 PPG against All-Defensive Dan Majerle who also got DPOY votes with Ewing, Starks, and Oakley.

40 year old MJ was scoring 45-50 points against the #1 and #2 defensive teams in the league.
#StopHatin

[Rysio]

Retard logic from ESPN. To average 45 you would need to be on fire every night also couldn't be any blowouts in a season where there's usually is around 15 a year where Jordan would score 25 or less. 38 a game tops on a shit team probably.

[Wally450]

I don't think people realize how hard it would be to maintain scoring 45 a game. Idc how talented you are.

[Trollsmasher]

"Dumars is overrated." Did you even watch him play? 5x All-Defensive and was a great defender, but he's "overrated."

Starks+Harper were a great defensive backcourt. Moncrief was a great defensive player. 41 PPG against All-Defensive Dan Majerle who also got DPOY votes with Ewing, Starks, and Oakley.

40 year old MJ was scoring 45-50 points against the #1 and #2 defensive teams in the league.
#StopHatin

basically all of these guys are fvcking midgets

MJ never faced athletic wings as big as him on a nightly basis like he would today

[Hey Yo]

27 on 42% carried his sidekick (15 on 34%).. so it was still a carry-job.. MJ has 6 carry-job, 1-man team rings..

and MJ was planning his vacation while Payton was trying to save face and the refs didn't show up (figuring it was over)

It's an irrelevant 2 games that MJ shot poorly (he shot fine in game 5)
MJ shot .415% and you round up to 42%

Yet when talking LeBron's 2015 Finals where he shot .398%, you always said he shot 39%.

:oldlol::oldlol::oldlol:

[Psileas]

Retard logic from ESPN. To average 45 you would need to be on fire every night also couldn't be any blowouts in a season where there's usually is around 15 a year where Jordan would score 25 or less. 38 a game tops on a shit team probably.

Yeah and in general, nobody nowadays plays as many minutes as they played back then. League leaders are at 37 mpg. I bet ESPN didn't mention this, either. For Jordan to average 45, he'd need to average more than 1.2 ppm, which is beyond ridiculous a figure that nobody has ever approached, regardless of rule elasticity and number of fouls drawn.

[8Ball]

Who cares if you're an MJ guy if your math is wrong and you're getting it wrong?

If MJ already averaged 33 on championship runs, then why would he get 33 in today's higher pace and drtg?

And don't bother answer I don't care.. I know you're a scared dope and know nothing.. I've read enough of your garbage

Jordan can average 45 points a game and his team will average 30 wins a season.

I like that.

[Phoenix]

Jordan can average 45 points a game and his team will average 30 wins a season.

I like that.

And 12-15 rebounds, Giannis numbers. On top of the 45ppg. A new Psych grad could make a career outta that kind of delusion.

[Roundball_Rock]

What about assists? 45/15. What about assists? 45/15/10?

Then the very same people pop up in other threads comparing numbers for MJ's teammates with numbers for players in this era (they never do the same exercise with MJ's competition and this era :oldlol: ) without any reference to pace, spacing, hand checking, rim protection, etc. since we can compare numbers in a series that was 88-80 PPG to what goes on today straight up because both are the same, right?

Are they lying when they tell us these things relative to MJ or are they lying when they say these things don't apply to his teammates? Both can't be true. Jordan can't go from 33/7 to 45/15 and his teammates not see any boost. :lol

[GrayGoat]

3ball getting decimated in here

[3ball]

Yeah and in general, nobody nowadays plays as many minutes as they played back then. League leaders are at 37 mpg. I bet ESPN didn't mention this, either. For Jordan to average 45, he'd need to average more than 1.2 ppm, which is beyond ridiculous a figure that nobody has ever approached, regardless of rule elasticity and number of fouls drawn.

Jordan would get 45 because of higher pace and drtg - like ESPN said - and he'd set the standard with 39-42 mpg

I'll take the pros word (players, coaches, media) over you lames.. you guys didn't even play.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan would get 45 because of higher pace and drtg - like ESPN said - and he'd set the standard with 39-42 mpg

I'll take the pros word (players, coaches, media) over you lames.. you guys didn't even play.

You don't seem to get it though. Scoring 45 PPG won't result in a winning brand of basketball. I personally don't believe that he would score that much, but even if he did, so what?

Jordan was a great leader and great leaders don't let their teammates stand around while they play iso ball. Saying he would average around 33-35 PPG is not an insult. Most everyone thinks his efficiency numbers would go up along with it. Instead of shooting 51% like he did with Chicago, he probably shoots 52-53%.

How is any of this bad or unreasonable? :confusedshrug:

[HoopsNY]

basically all of these guys are fvcking midgets

MJ never faced athletic wings as big as him on a nightly basis like he would today

How ironic. They're "midgets" (guess Majerle doesn't count...and other 6'6" guards like Eddie Jones who was also a great defender), but LeBron routinely faced small forwards that were 6'8"-6'9" 250-260 lbs? How about at the PG position? You see PGs running around with that size?

Bran stans never apply their own logic to their boy toy.

[3ball]

You don't seem to get it though. Scoring 45 PPG won't result in a winning brand of basketball. I personally don't believe that he would score that much, but even if he did, so what?

Jordan was a great leader and great leaders don't let their teammates stand around while they play iso ball. Saying he would average around 33-35 PPG is not an insult. Most everyone thinks his efficiency numbers would go up along with it. Instead of shooting 51% like he did with Chicago, he probably shoots 52-53%.

How is any of this bad or unreasonable? :confusedshrug:
Winning was never mentioned in the OP

Did lebron make the playoffs in 04', 05', or 19'?

did he get eliminated in the 2nd Round in 06', 08', and 10'?

So the question wasn't winning because no one always wins...

The question was whether peak MJ would average 45+ and he clearly would if he was on the kind of team lebron had during his lottery or 2nd Round years

[sdot_thadon]

So many things wrong with this premise, most of them already addressed in the thread. Of course considering OP that's all a given isn't it?

It's not unrealistic to think he could average that, it's a guarantee tho if he puts up anything remotely in the neighborhood he's a cancer on a dumpster fire of a team....and in that case....who gives a shit? Also I think one is severely discounting the effort and energy it would take to put those numbers up for a season. Those 45 ppg also don't come without eating up even more than the 26 fga per game he put up in 93.

Since apparently for a take like this to work common sense must be left out of the equation lets see exactly how amazing this is. From 33 ppg in 93 to putting up 45 a game in 2020 is roughly a 36-37% scoring increase....

93 Bulls 144 ppg (#1 scoring team in 2020 was Milwaukee at 119 ppg)

MJ's starting 5

Bj Armstrong 17 ppg
Mj 45 ppg
Scottie Pippen 25 ppg
Horace Grant 18 ppg
Bill Cartwright 8 ppg

plus a 30 ppg bench unit.

How much help does Mj need???:coleman:

[3ball]

So many things wrong with this premise, most of them already addressed in the thread. Of course considering OP that's all a given isn't it?

It's not unrealistic to think he could average that, it's a guarantee tho if he puts up anything remotely in the neighborhood he's a cancer on a dumpster fire of a team....and in that case....who gives a shit? Also I think one is severely discounting the effort and energy it would take to put those numbers up for a season. Those 45 ppg also don't come without eating up even more than the 26 fga per game he put up in 93.

Since apparently for a take like this to work common sense must be left out of the equation lets see exactly how amazing this is. From 33 ppg in 93 to putting up 45 a game in 2020 is roughly a 36-37% scoring increase....

93 Bulls 144 ppg (#1 scoring team in 2020 was Milwaukee at 119 ppg)

MJ's starting 5

Bj Armstrong 17 ppg
Mj 45 ppg
Scottie Pippen 25 ppg
Horace Grant 18 ppg
Bill Cartwright 8 ppg

plus a 30 ppg bench unit.

How much help does Mj need???:coleman:

No you just don't understand basketball

When MJ came back to the bulls in 95' and 96', everyone took a tiny haircut to accommodate his 30 ppg... Literally, everyone saw a 1-2 point drop in their ppg

That's what would happen if you replaced Zach Lavine's 25 with the goat's 45.. just like 96' when Pete Myers' 10 ppg was replaced with MJ's 30

Notice how Jordan's "no weakness" game provided equitable reductions across the board, while lebron's 1-dimensional game causes certain guys to crater (and the team to play under-capacity) lol

[3ball]

No you just don't understand basketball

When MJ came back to the bulls in 95' and 96', everyone took a tiny haircut to accommodate his 30 ppg... Literally, everyone saw a 1-2 point drop in their ppg

That's what would happen if you replaced Zach Lavine's 25 with the goat's 45.. just like 96' when Pete Myers' 10 ppg was replaced with MJ's 30

Notice how Jordan's "no weakness" game provided equitable reductions across the board, while lebron's 1-dimensional game causes certain guys to crater (and the team to play under-capacity) lol

sdot, you still breathin there bud?

[Keno]

MJ couldn't shoot 3's to save his life, how would this era benefit him again? MJ would be a poor mans Kawhi / Butler (this finals) in this era.

[sdot_thadon]

No you just don't understand basketball
No. The problem here is I understand basketball and don't subscribe to the perverted, bastardized view you have of the game. I respect the game enough to know it's not logical to expect anyone to put up 45 a game over the course of 82, even the goat. (Keeping in mind Wilt pulled it off, albeit in an entirely different world and right next to the basket for it)



When MJ came back to the bulls in 95' and 96', everyone took a tiny haircut to accommodate his 30 ppg... Literally, everyone saw a 1-2 point drop in their ppg

That's what would happen if you replaced Zach Lavine's 25 with the goat's 45.. just like 96' when Pete Myers' 10 ppg was replaced with MJ's 30

Notice how Jordan's "no weakness" game provided equitable reductions across the board, while lebron's 1-dimensional game causes certain guys to crater (and the team to play under-capacity) lol

You've responded to my post without responding to my reasoning. When Mj replaced Pete Myers 10 ppg how did that work out, I forget....? Again, where will the shots come from to sustain that level of scoring. And if it isn't a viable way of team success, who gives a shit?

[Roundball_Rock]

Since apparently for a take like this to work common sense must be left out of the equation lets see exactly how amazing this is. From 33 ppg in 93 to putting up 45 a game in 2020 is roughly a 36-37% scoring increase....

93 Bulls 144 ppg (#1 scoring team in 2020 was Milwaukee at 119 ppg)

MJ's starting 5

Bj Armstrong 17 ppg
Mj 45 ppg
Scottie Pippen 25 ppg
Horace Grant 18 ppg
Bill Cartwright 8 ppg

plus a 30 ppg bench unit.

How much help does Mj need???:coleman:

:lol Don't do them like this!

Yeah, and that was a low year for Pippen who played the RS with an injured ankle. He was at 21 the prior year and 22 the next year. So with the corresponding bump, 22 PPG becomes 30 PPG. Grant goes to 21 PPG. BJ 19 PPG.


When MJ came back to the bulls in 95' and 96', everyone took a tiny haircut to accommodate his 30 ppg

This is, as usual, yet another lie. Here are the 95' splits before and after MJ's 24 FGA. GS=game score, US=usage rate, TS=true shooting percentage.

Pippen w/out Jordan: 21.9/8.4/5.1 18.7 GS 56.1% TS 27.1% US
Pippen with Jordan: 19.7/6.9/5.6 16.7 GS 54.9% TS 24.6% US

Kukoc w/out Jordan: 16.4/5.5/4.6 14.1 GS 57.9% TS 22.6% US
Kukoc with Jordan: 13.0/5.3/4.4 11.5 GS 55.8% TS 19.8% US

Armstrong w/out Jordan: 14.7/2.3/3.2 10.5 GS 56.2% TS 20.2% US
Armstrong with Jordan: 11.4/2.1/2.1 9.4 GS 66.6% TS 14.6% US

Kerr w/out Jordan: 8.2/1.4/1.8 6.3 GS 63.5% TS 14.3% US
Kerr with Jordan: 8.4/1.8/1.8 7.1 GS 63.7% TS 13.3% US

Perdue w/out Jordan: 8.5/7.0/1.1 7.1 GS 57.6% TS 19.4% US
Perdue with Jordan: 6.1/5.6/1.2 5.8 GS 54.2% TS 14.8% US

5 leading scorers without Jordan: 69.7 PPG 11.3 GS 58.3% TS 20.7% US
5 leading scorers with Jordan: 58.6 PPG 10.1 GS 59.0% TS 17.4% US

They went from 70 PPG to 59 PPG and Pippen/Kukoc went from 38 PPG to 33 PPG. Only Armstrong benefitted in any way on paper, which is ironic because a major reason they let BJ go is he didn't like his tiny role with MJ back.

Also note the game score declines for each player, except Kerr.