Did Jordan ever win a ring with worse help than 2013 LeBron?

[Gus Hemmingway]

For the entire playoffs

Wade- 15/4/3 on 45%

Bosh - 12/7 on 45%

[8Ball]

Only Bosh could turn Hibbert into Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

Scored 0 points in game 7 finals too.

[dankok8]

1997 Bulls in the Playoffs:

Pippen - 19/7/4 on 42%

Kukoc - 8/3/3 on 36%

[GrayGoat]

1997 Bulls in the Playoffs:

Pippen - 19/7/4 on 42%

Kukoc - 8/3/3 on 36%

3-all defensive 1st teamers that’s locked up the opponent

[Roundball_Rock]

OP, what are the corresponding numbers for the comp?


1997 Bulls in the Playoffs:

Pippen - 19/7/4 on 42%


This is deceptive--Pippen played at a top 5ish level in 97'. What he didn't tell you is Pippen played 7 MPG in one game, which drags his averages down slightly because he basically got near 0's across the board for 6-7% of the sample size. Before MJ stains say, the Bulls won that game, didn't they? Yeah, because they built a double digit lead in those 7 minutes. The offense screeched to a halt in the remaining 41 and the Heat played them even during that span...

In full games, he was 20 PPG for the playoffs, including 21 PPG in full ECF games and 20 PPG in the finals (Stockton was 15 PPG, Mourning was 15-16 PPG in the ECF).

Also, they bait and switch to FG % away from TS % when convenient (which people surely have noticed) because Pippen took a lot of threes then (2/5 of his FGA attempts that run). Pippen had a higher eFG % and TS % than Jordan in the 97' playoffs but MJ didn't take the 3ball so his FG % is higher.

Jordan won with top 5ish level help from a teammate. What a hardship. :lol Pippen outplayed the #1 and #2 option on each East team and was comparable to Malone in the Finals (3.8 less PPG, less RPG, more defense, facilitator of offense, etc.--take your pick). The kind of thing Dan would be hailing as amazing help if it were Irving or Wade.

But maybe MJ's era was just so weak Pippen outplaying the #1's on those teams in the East and comparing to Malone means nothing. :confusedshrug:

[dbugz]

Got beaten by Jason Terry and JJ Barea in his prime with superstar on his side.

There's no coming back from that.

[GrayGoat]

Got beaten by Jason Terry and JJ Barea in his prime with superstar on his side.

There's no coming back from that.

2016

[Roundball_Rock]

All shooting percentages are TS %. If a player averaged 1 or more SPG or BPG, it will be mentioned. 0's will not.

1997 NBA Finals

Pippen 20/8/4 54% with 2 steals, 2 blocks (as a SF :bowdown:)
Kukoc 8/3/3 58%

Malone 24/10/4 49% with 2 steals
Stockton 15/4/9 61% with 2 steals, 1 block (0.5 BPG)

The Bull's #2 option was comparable to the Jazz's #1 option (who was league MVP that year)--yet we are hearing 97' as an example of MJ "carrying"? Even with Kukoc struggling, Pippen/Kukoc outscored Stockton/Hornacek (if you want to compare them and ignore Pippen nearly matching Malone).

MJ stans can't find a legitimate example of a "carry" chip, can they? :oldlol:

[dankok8]

3-all defensive 1st teamers that’s locked up the opponent

I was just responding in jest to the OP. Still Rodman didn't make any All-Defensive team that year and averaged 8.4 rpg in the playoffs. He and Kukoc struggled badly with injuries that year but these fools simply reading box scores wouldn't know that.

[3ball]

For the entire playoffs

Wade- 15/4/3 on 45%

Bosh - 12/7 on 45%

No help was needed in the East Playoffs.. the Heat only faced a good team in the Finals, where Wade achieved prime pippen stats (20/5/5 on 47%)

lebron has NEVER beaten a good team (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had carry-jobs against good teams

The 88' and 89' Bulls would've won the 13' East, since they beat much better team (the #1 SRS Cavs) then lebron ever beat in the East

[Roundball_Rock]

I was just responding in jest to the OP. Still Rodman didn't make any All-Defensive team that year and averaged 8.4 rpg in the playoffs. He and Kukoc struggled badly with injuries that year but these fools simply reading box scores wouldn't know that.

Rodman's defense on Malone, the league MVP that year, was huge in the Finals. Malone underperformed badly in 97' (something like 60-61% TS down to 49% in the finals) and had only one monster game (Game 3). The box score shows Rodman was 2/7/2 but the Bulls don't win if Rodman doesn't do that (with an assist from Longely).

Kukoc was awful that run due to that foot injury (especially in the ECF where he was 4-5 PPG) and no role player stepped up to fill his void but the Bulls overcame it because they were getting so much scoring from Jordan/Pippen (as NBC would note in their coverage).

MJ stans complain about Pippen 23 years later but he put up 20.2 PPG in his full games (he had 2 in a 7 minute game) on higher efficiency than MJ that run. 20 PPG may not sound like much in this era but that would be 11th in scoring in the 97' playoffs and 8th among players who played more than 5 games https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997_per_game.html#per_game_stats::pts_per_g. The only other comparable 2nd option that year scoring-wise was Kemp at 21.6.

[dankok8]

Rodman's defense on Malone, the league MVP that year, was huge in the Finals. Malone underperformed badly in 97' (something like 60-61% TS down to 49% in the finals) and had only one monster game (Game 3). The box score shows Rodman was 2/7/2 but the Bulls don't win if Rodman doesn't do that (with an assist from Longely).

Kukoc was awful that run due to that foot injury (especially in the ECF where he was 4-5 PPG) and no role player stepped up to fill his void but the Bulls overcame it because they were getting so much scoring from Jordan/Pippen (as NBC would note in their coverage).

MJ stans complain about Pippen 23 years later but he put up 20.2 PPG in his full games (he had 2 in a 7 minute game) on higher efficiency than MJ that run. 20 PPG may not sound like much in this era but that would be 11th in scoring in the 97' playoffs and 8th among players who played more than 5 games https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997_per_game.html#per_game_stats::pts_per_g. The only other comparable 2nd option that year scoring-wise was Kemp at 21.6.

So you admit scoring in general was much lower in the 90's than today... For the record, I think that same Pippen today would average 23 ppg and MJ would average 36 ppg and both would do it on much better shooting %.

[3ball]

1997 Bulls in the Playoffs:

Pippen - 19/7/4 on 42%

Kukoc - 8/3/3 on 36%

What about rodman though - he was super-amazing fantastic - what were his numbers in the 97' playoffs???

[3ball]

.
Playoffs

96' Pippen... 16.9 on 39%
13' Wade''.... 15.9 on 45%


I'll take Wade, especially since Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the Finals versus 20 on 48% for Wade... And Pippen had numerous playoff runs at this level (97', 98', 93', 90', 89')


96' Bulls vs 13' Heat - Playoff PPG

1. Jordan.... 30.7........ 25.9..... Lebron
2. Pippen.... 16.9........ 15.9..... Wade
3. Kukoc..... 10.3........ 12.0..... Bosh
4. Harper...... 8.8........ 10.8..... Allen
5. Longley.... 8.3.......... 9.4..... Chalmers


So Jordan carried the bigger load, especially in the Finals when pippen was all-time bad, and Wade was basically prime pippen (20/5/5)

[Gus Hemmingway]

.
Playoffs

96' Pippen... 16.9 on 39%
13' Wade''.... 15.9 on 45%


I'll take Wade, especially since Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the Finals versus 20 on 48% for Wade... And Pippen had numerous playoff runs at this level (97', 98', 93', 90', 89')


96' Bulls vs 13' Heat - Playoff PPG

1. Jordan.... 30.7........ 25.9..... Lebron
2. Pippen.... 16.9........ 15.9..... Wade
3. Kukoc..... 10.3........ 12.0..... Bosh
4. Harper...... 8.8........ 10.8..... Allen
5. Longley.... 8.3.......... 9.4..... Chalmers


So Jordan carried the bigger load, especially in the Finals when pippen was all-time bad, and Wade was basically prime pippen (20/5/5)

Rebounds and assists?

[3ball]

Rebounds and assists?

Lebron's cast was so great that they staved off an 0-3 deficit while lebron averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of the Finals... Lol... It was 2011 all over again but Allen saved him this time

[Gus Hemmingway]

Lebron's cast was so great that they staved off an 0-3 deficit while lebron averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of the Finals... Lol... It was 2011 all over again but Allen saved him this time


Rebounds and assists?

And LeBron averaged 11 rebounds and 7 assists in the 2013 Finals, so it’s automatically better than any of Jordan’s since MJ couldn’t match that level of production (11 and 7 vs 4 and 2)

[Roundball_Rock]

Rebounds and assists?

3ball in another thread is saying players score more today because of pace, spacing, etc. Now he wants to compare 90's stats to this era. MJ stans are shameless.


So you admit scoring in general was much lower in the 90's than today... For the record, I think that same Pippen today would average 23 ppg and MJ would average 36 ppg and both would do it on much better shooting %.

Yup, I have always said that (more spacing, more possessions, less rim protection, handchecking, etc.) and those numbers work for their prime norms. I can see MJ "spiking" to 40-41 PPG in a peak year and Pippen 24-25.


Pippen. Wade. Blah. Blah. Blah.


Here are their PO scoring ranks during the years in question.

Wade 11': 6th
Wade 12': 7th
Wade 13': 27th
Wade 14': 22nd

Pippen 91': 13th (tied with Miller)
Pippen 92': 13th
Pippen 93': 10th
Pippen 95': 14th
Pippen 96': 16th
Pippen 97': 11th (in 18 full games)
Pippen 98': 16th

This is a markedly different picture than MJ stans' convey. Pippen's lowest years are 16th and he consistently is in a 10th-16th range. (In case you are wondering, he was 6th in 94'.)

Wade had higher highs but lower lows. Wade also fell off substantially after the first two years, in contrast to Pippen's consistency.

One thing to note is the Bulls were in a lot of blowouts. How many times late in the 4th quarter was Pippen not in the game? If he weren't on a super team there would be some extra PPG on the table (1 PPG?).

This is why MJ stans never post data in era context. They want you to think Wade putting up 20 PPG is the same as Pippen doing it, which is deceptive and they know it.

This is just scoring of course. There is more to basketball than scoring.

Pippen 1991-1993, 1995-1998 (7 seasons): 2x all-NBA 1st team, 4x 1st/2nd team, 6x all-NBA, 1x top 5 in MVP
Wade 2011-2014 (4 seasons): 0x all-NBA 1st team, 1x 1st/2nd team, 3x all-NBA, 0x top 5 in MVP

If Wade was better, as MJ fans are adamant, he certainly was not the more accomplished player within his era compared to what Pippen was in their "sidekick" years.

[Bronbron23]

For the entire playoffs

Wade- 15/4/3 on 45%

Bosh - 12/7 on 45%

Yes

[Manny98]

Yes

When?

[And1AllDay]

Got beaten by Jason Terry and JJ Barea in his prime with superstar on his side.

There's no coming back from that.

2016

keep up

[kawhileonard2]

All of Jordan's rings were better. He never had a guy who won league or finals mvp. Lebron in 2013 had Wade who won finals mvp already.

[Bronbron23]

When?

Well op is wrong wade was 16/5/5 but its irrelevant because both mj and bron had the the best teams in there conference so all we need to do is look at the finals.

Wade: 20/4/5 on 48%
Bosh: 12/9/2 on 46%

Pip: 16/7/5 on 41%
Kuc: 15/5/3 on 50%

So wade and bosh scored 1 more point 1 more rebound but 1 less assists while being more efficient.

And if you go further down the roster bron had 2 more players that scored 11 point while mj's next best 2 both scored 5. Mj has rod on defense though so its pretty much a wash there. Either way you look at it its either a wash or advantage bron.

[Honor Boost]

His help in 98 was very bad but his opponents were much worse. Having 2013 Wade playing in the Finals against Spurs is what makes it special

[HoopsNY]

Wade scored 20/4/5 on 48% in the finals. He gave 23 points on 53% in game 7 with 10 rebounds and 2 blocks. "Worse help", give me a break.

The idea that either LeBron or MJ did it alone is ridiculous beyond belief.

[Bronbron23]

Wade scored 20/4/5 on 48% in the finals. He gave 23 points on 53% in game 7 with 10 rebounds and 2 blocks. "Worse help", give me a break.

The idea that either LeBron or MJ did it alone is ridiculous beyond belief.

Yup spot on

[Shooter]

Wade scored 20/4/5 on 48% in the finals. He gave 23 points on 53% in game 7 with 10 rebounds and 2 blocks. "Worse help", give me a break.

The idea that either LeBron or MJ did it alone is ridiculous beyond belief.

Wades 2013 run in the playoffs was the second lowest ppg for any championship #2 option ever. Even lower than Pippen's worst year.

[HoopsNY]

Wades 2013 run in the playoffs was the second lowest ppg for any championship #2 option ever. Even lower than Pippen's worst year.

That's convenient. Completely ignore that the Eastern Conference competition was abysmal. Bucks won 38 games, Bulls 45, and Pacers 49, but focus on Wade's production.

Then when they face a legit team. Wade showed up, and more importantly, in game 7.

Someone mentioned 1997 here. Chicago's cast scored less than the opposition's supporting cast. Miami's also gave less than San Antonio. The result? Both Miami and Chicago won.

Can people stop this tirade? It's beyond ridiculous. Pick at real arguments for once.

[Shooter]

That's convenient. Completely ignore that the Eastern Conference competition was abysmal. Bucks won 38 games, Bulls 45, and Pacers 49, but focus on Wade's production.

Then when they face a legit team. Wade showed up, and more importantly, in game 7.

Someone mentioned 1997 here. Chicago's cast scored less than the opposition's supporting cast. Miami's also gave less than San Antonio. The result? Both Miami and Chicago won.

Can people stop this tirade? It's beyond ridiculous. Pick at real arguments for once.

You aren't reading too well.

Wade's 2013 playoff ppgz production was the second lowest among all #2 options in NBA history. Lower than any year Pippen was in the playoffs.

[kawhileonard2]

You aren't reading too well.

Wade's 2013 playoff ppgz production was the second lowest among all #2 options in NBA history. Lower than any year Pippen was in the playoffs.

You aren't reading well this was Wade's team he was the proven champion and winner. Lebron only won bronze medals until then. U.S should had done to Lebron what the Germans did to Luz Long.

[Roundball_Rock]

Again, we see numbers from eras apart compared. Jordan fans will never tell you what the opposition did in those series. Clearly there is a problem there they must conceal...


best teams in there conference so all we need to do is look at the finals.

Wade: 20/4/5 on 48%
Bosh: 12/9/2 on 46%

Pip: 16/7/5 on 41%
Kuc: 15/5/3 on 50%

Yet again, we don't hear a word about pace, spacing, hand checking, rim protection, etc. when it comes to MJ's teammates numbers--from the same people talking about how MJ would be putting up much bigger numbers today then he ever actually did. #Hypocrisy

Pippen was getting FMVP front-runner talk before he got hurt in Game 5--Wade wasn't. Jordan fans repeatedly deceive about the series.

Also, why aren't the stats for Stockton/Hornacek posted? Because they put up 20 PPG combined.

In the 98' ECF the best players in the series were MJ, Pippen, Kukoc--then Miller. MJ stans obviously didn't watch the series but look at Game 7 when Pippen gets into foul trouble. Collins excitedly notes this is important because 1) it would allow Indiana to execute an offense again 2) it would put Jordan on Jackson instead of Pippen. This tells you what Jordan fans won't: Pippen dominated the series defensively. His best game in the series was when he went 1 for 9 for something like 4 points (don't take my word for it: Google "1998 Eastern Conference Finals Game 1 and see what was said at the time). This is called "no help." MJ stans are so desperate, his team so great, these kind of performances are what they point to as "no help." :oldlol:

Roy Hibbert was the second best player behind LeBron in the 13' ECF. :lol Since MJ stans love scoring, let's put together a neat table.

Pippen/Kukoc 31 PPG
Stockton/Hornacek 20 PPG

Pippen was a decoy in Game 6 and they still crushed Stockton/Hornacek. :roll:

Hibbert/West 39 PPG
Wade/Bosh 26 PPG

Not the impression you were just sold, was it?

1998 ECF Game 1 article. MJ stans with an agenda 22 years later will tell you Pippen sucked in the game because his stat sheet was empty and he scored only 4 points. Here is what people without an agenda who watched the game live saw (note the headline, i.e., the most important takeaway from the game):


Pippen clamps down on Pacers Forward uses defense to frustrate M. Jackson, lift Bulls in opener, 85-79


CHICAGO -- As Indiana Pacers guard Mark Jackson dissected the New York Knicks in the Eastern Conference semifinals, Scottie Pippen was an interested spectator. And in the days leading up the Eastern Conference finals, the Chicago Bulls forward had one request as he talked about the matchups with his teammates.

"I wanted to play Jackson," Pippen said. "He's the guy who makes the team click. I wanted him to have to work."

Pippen got his wish. And for a guy who was so off-target on offense that he simply stopped shooting, Pippen was the most dominant player on the court during an 85-79 win over the Pacers that gave the Bulls a 1-0 lead in the best-of-seven series.

Pippen shot 1-for-9 from the field and scored four points. But for most of his 40 minutes, he pressured Jackson from the moment he received the ball.

Initially, that helped delay the Pacers in setting up their offense. And, ultimately, the post-ups the 6-foot-3 Jackson used to destroy New York's smaller guards in the second round were not available against the 6-7 Pippen.

Jackson was so frustrated that he finished with seven turnovers. And while his overall line was impressive -- 12 points, seven rebounds, six assists -- he didn't record one assist over the final 28 minutes, 10 seconds.

"Obviously, that hurt us offensively," Indiana coach Larry Bird said. "This is the first time this year I have seen a player get on a point guard and not really foul him, but get his hands in there and dig out the ball. Next game we need to do a better job of getting Mark open going down the court."

Reggie Miller (16 points) played passively and made just two field goals in the second half. Rik Smits, so effective against New York, was never able to get low-post position and had just three points and one field goal in the second half.

Miller's and Smits' struggles were spurred by Pippen, who plotted the strategy with Jordan and Ron Harper before the game. Pippen would guard Mark Jackson, Harper would chase Miller and Jordan would defend Chris Mullin (1-for-4, two points). The three presented the plan to Phil Jackson, who gladly accepted.

So intent was Pippen on the defensive end that he took just one shot in the second half. But the sacrifices made by the seven-time All-NBA defensive forward, who can effectively guard three positions, was a major reason the Bulls won the series opener.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1998-05-18-1998138106-story.html

[MadDog]

Roy Hibbert was the second best player behind LeBron in the 13' ECF.

You unintentionally proved LeBron's comp was weak. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

You unintentionally proved LeBron's comp was weak. :oldlol:

In 2013 in the East? It was. :lol :confusedshrug:

[MadDog]

In 2013 in the East? It was. :lol :confusedshrug:

Knowing the East was weak in 2013, you're using "PPG" to claim Stockton/Hornacek were weaker? Stockton an assist guy? That would be like chiding Magic for his low volume but ignoring his playmaking :oldlol: At this point you're reaching for the moon.

[Roundball_Rock]

Knowing the East was weak in 2013, you're using "PPG" to claim Stockton/Hornacek were weaker?

I am using it to mock MJ stans' obsession/hypocrisy with PPG. :lol They like to use slower pace, tougher defense, etc. era stats for MJ's teammates against players from this era (the deceptive implication being 20 PPG then is the same as 20 today) but never do the same with the competition of MJ and LJ's because they know full well the comp rarely got 20+ and at times was around 15 (Starks' prime average, Stockton's prime average, Smits was probably 16-17 for his prime, etc.).

Nope, we can't look at playmaking, defense, rebounding, or any other facet of the game. Only PPG! So if you dominate a series to the point you were the FMVP front-runner two-thirds through the series, but scored 16 PPG for the whole series, you sucked. Isn't that how it works per MJ stans, right?

Stockton's assists are goosed by the Sloan system (similar to how D'Antoni does the same for assists). D Will was something like 20/12 in the same system.

Notice you never hear of anything Stockton actually did in those series (12 games), other than show up. Any big games? Did he turn the tide in a major way? Nope.

[TheCorporation]

You aren't reading too well.

Wade's 2013 playoff ppgz production was the second lowest among all #2 options in NBA history. Lower than any year Pippen was in the playoffs.

:roll::roll:

Got'm

[MadDog]

I am using it to mock MJ stans' obsession/hypocrisy with PPG. :lol They like to use slower pace, tougher defense, etc. era stats for MJ's teammates against players from this era (the deceptive implication being 20 PPG then is the same as 20 today) but never do the same with the competition of MJ and LJ's because they know full well the comp rarely got 20+ and at times was around 15 (Starks' prime average, Stockton's prime average, Smits was probably 16-17 for his prime, etc.).

Nope, we can't look at playmaking, defense, rebounding, or any other facet of the game. Only PPG! So if you dominate a series to the point you were the FMVP front-runner two-thirds through the series, but scored 16 PPG for the whole series, you sucked. Isn't that how it works per MJ stans, right?

Stockton's assists are goosed by the Sloan system (similar to how D'Antoni does the same for assists). D Will was something like 20/12 in the same system.

Notice you never hear of anything Stockton actually did in those series (12 games), other than show up. Any big games? Did he turn the tide in a major way? Nope.

That's one way to look at it. What really happened, though, was you getting upset at that poster for including points/rebounds/assists :oldlol: It favored Bosh/Wade which is why your rebuttal was only "PPG". Goalposts were moved just like they were with your Westbrook>Wade take. After proving Wade was better, you were forced to bring up Roy Hibbert :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

:roll::roll:

Got'm

Got what? Clearly he didn't understand the premise. You can't talk about what your supporting cast did and conveniently overlook how weak your conference was that year.

All this talk about competition/sidekicks, but no actual evaluation of them as a full package.

Beat a 38 win Bucks team and yell about what Wade did, when the #1 option (let alone the #2) for Milwaukee was putting up 14.3 PPG on 44%.

Beat a Chicago team where the #1 option averaged 15.6 PPG on 43%.

In the finals Parker put up 15.7 PPG on 41%.

People are splitting hairs here.

[TheCorporation]

Got what? Clearly he didn't understand the premise. You can't talk about what your supporting cast did and conveniently overlook how weak your conference was that year.

All this talk about competition/sidekicks, but no actual evaluation of them as a full package.

Beat a 38 win Bucks team and yell about what Wade did, when the #1 option (let alone the #2) for Milwaukee was putting up 14.3 PPG on 44%.

Beat a Chicago team where the #1 option averaged 15.6 PPG on 43%.

In the finals Parker put up 15.7 PPG on 41%.

People are splitting hairs here.

Just so we're clear, you do understand that Wade's 2013 playoff ppg was the second lowest ppg for any winning team's #2 option in NBA history.

Lower than any year Pippen made a Finals. Wade scored less ppg in 2013 that ANY Pippen Playoff run. Are we clear?

[HoopsNY]

That's one way to look at it. What really happened, though, was you getting upset at that poster for including points/rebounds/assists :oldlol: It favored Bosh/Wade which is why your rebuttal was only "PPG". Goalposts were moved just like they were with your Westbrook>Wade take. After proving Wade was better, you were forced to bring up Roy Hibbert :oldlol:

That's just it though. He moves the goal posts all the time (like when he brings up Rodman for FMVP but gets mad at you if you bring up Divac and his contribution. Meanwhile, Rodman got torched by Kemp in game 1 and Chicago started switching between him and Longley).

If you so dare to create your own criteria, like looking at the entire supporting casts, then you're the bad guy because Roundball's sidekick criteria is the only thing that counts.

[HoopsNY]

Just so we're clear, you do understand that Wade's 2013 playoff ppg was the second lowest ppg for any winning team's #2 option in NBA history.

Lower than any year Pippen made a Finals. Wade scored less ppg in 2013 that ANY Pippen Playoff run. Are we clear?

Here's your problem. You're trying to elevate LeBron by diminishing Wade's contribution. I understand what you're saying perfectly. What I'm trying to show you is that it didn't matter. The playoffs saw 2/3 opponents being God awful, and a combo in the ECF of Hibbert/PG (young PG on top of that).

The finals Wade shows up and plays well, outplaying the opposition, but that is conveniently ignored.

I'm not the one here trying to prop up MJ and downplay LeBron. You and other Bran stans are doing just that for LeBron in order to put down MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

These MJ clowns want you to compare individual PPG in a series where the teams were combining for 168 points versus individual PPG in series where the teams were scoring 237 points. Here is why they resort to that type of deception:

Here is what percentage of total points in a series their sidekicks scored. I excluded Game 5 of the 97' ECF because Pippen played only 7 minutes and excluded the 2 games Irving missed in the 15' ECF (I took his average in games played and put it against the average points scored for both teams in the series).

You will never guess who had slightly more help when you adjust for series where teams were scoring 168 versus series where teams were scoring 237!

Sidekick Share of Total Points Scored in Finals/ECF


1991 ECF: Pippen 11%
1991 Finals: Pippen 11%
1992 ECF: Pippen 10%
1992 Finals: Pippen 10%
1993 ECF: Pippen 12%
1993 Finals: Pippen 10%
1996 ECF: Pippen 10%
1996 Finals: Pippen 9%
1997 ECF: Pippen 13%
1997 Finals: Pippen 11%
1998 ECF: Pippen 9%
1998 Finals: Pippen 10%
Avg.: Pippen 10.5%

2011 ECF: Wade 11%
2011 Finals: Wade 14%
2012 ECF: Wade 11%
2012 Finals: Wade 11%
2013 ECF: Wade 8%
2013 Finals: Wade 10%
2014 ECF: Wade 10%
2014 Finals: Wade 8%
Avg.: Wade 10.4%

2015 ECF: Irving 7% (when he played—missed half the series)
2015 Finals: Smith 6%
2016 ECF: Irving 12%
2016 Finals: Irving 14%
2017 ECF: Irving 12%
2017 Finals: Irving 12%
2018 ECF: Love 6%
2018 Finals: Love 9%
Cavs II Avg.: 9.8%

Even the peaks aren't as divergent as you would think. It turns out scoring 27 PPG when teams are scoring 200 points is about the same as scoring 21 PPG when teams are scoring 166 in a series.

[3BallSucks]

Got beaten by Jason Terry and JJ Barea in his prime with superstar on his side.

There's no coming back from that.

realgm poll has Bran > Jordan. cry more.

[Micku]

Pippen was getting FMVP front-runner talk before he got hurt in Game 5--Wade wasn't. Jordan fans repeatedly deceive about the series.


I mainly disagree with this here. Wade was getting talks of being FMVP for the Heat in 2013. Mostly it's cuz LeBron was underperforming from 1-5 games. And ppl did acknowlege that he was out there with one knee, trying to will Miami to wins. You can find some articles still about it.



Even Ground

There are times when fans use the argument that championship rings have little to do with an individual's legacy. Those folks often use that argument for their favorite players who have not won rings, ignoring the validity of the argument.

Teams may win titles, but superstars lead their teams to the gold once they've reached the stage of legends.

As it presently stands, LeBron James is 1-for-3 in his career NBA Finals appearances with one NBA Finals MVP award. Dwyane Wade, meanwhile, is 2-for-3 with a Finals MVP award.

If the series ended today, LeBron would be far from a lock to win Finals MVP for a second time—he and D-Wade would be on even ground.




https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1672718-nba-finals-2013-dwyane-wades-huge-game-4-raises-bar-for-lebron-james




Wade is behind James in the MVP race right now, but the voters may lean in his favor if he continues his Game 4 pace. Both he and James are extremely valuable to the Heat; however, Miami is a totally different team when Wade is playing like he should. While Wade is somewhat of a dark horse right now, he could quickly become the favorite with a great Game 5 showing.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1672910-nba-playoffs-2013-breaking-down-top-nba-finals-mvp-candidates


Some vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlEB8yL7dfs

There are some vids after game 5 that some analysts would state that Wade was playing the best for the Heat at that time mostly cause of his performance of 4 and 5. Danny Green was mostly the dude who probably would get the fmvp.

LeBron in general was playing badly. Almost to his 2011 standard. I remember the forums over here and some other sites, the haters were having a little bit of a field day and kind'a shock that it came to it.

LeBron stats after the first 5 games:
21.6 ppg. 6.8 apg. 10.8 rpg. 3.8 3pga. 31.6% 3pt shooting. 43.6% shooting.

Wade stats after the first 5 games:
20 ppg. 5.4 apg. 3 rpg. 0 3pga. 47.8% shooting.

All in all, it was pretty ugly.

MJ in comparison, never had this. Not in a under performing aspect in that many stretches of games. It was more like Pippen or Rodman did something on the other side that was great, but MJ pretty much performed. It wasn't a drop off like this. And for a hardcore point of view, how the Spurs were defending him expose a big weakness in his game. That's his jumper. Which is very weird, cuz his jumper was on most of the season. But he didn't have confidence in his jumper then.

But all and all, it's pretty hard compare the stats. Miami, despite the obvious number, had a lot of help. It just they need LeBron to operate. Especially in the playoffs since Wade was playing on one leg. But they had four dudes in double figures in the playoffs.

With MJ, no matter what year, relied on him a lot offensively. Not to say they weren't good without him, but contribution he added was in similar effect with LeBron. But MJ in plus/minus department, he pretty much lead not only the team, but the league on the offensive side almost every year in the RS and in the playoffs. And with the usage rate, it shows how much he contributed to the Bulls offense.

I think both teammates are underrated by the haters. Although I would say that Miami had better talent in 2013, they didn't couldn't perform in the playoffs due to injuries unfortunately. While the Bulls maximize their talent as a team. As of why? That's another discussion. Although I think it's the coaching, you can definitely make a case it's how MJ played too. As Wilt once said, sometimes less is more. You contribute less in order to do more for the team. Shaq, Kobe, Bird, LeBron, Wade they all mentioned this in some form.

Not to say LeBron's play style didn't work. And besides, in Miami they did ran a system. And when healthy, they were a beast. It's really a shame Wade knees gave out. But in the same way MJ stans also ignore Pippen's injuries in a similar way that LeBron stans ignore Wade's injuries.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good info. Thanks--I forget that. :cheers:

Some minor quibbles, agree with most of what you said:


MJ in comparison, never had this. Not in a under performing aspect in that many stretches of games

He did--it just gets erased because it is MJ. 93' ECF is the best example. Outside of that monster game, he was shooting 35% in the other five. 97' ECF is another.


Miami, despite the obvious number, had a lot of help. It just they need LeBron to operate. Especially in the playoffs since Wade was playing on one leg. But they had four dudes in double figures in the playoffs.

With MJ, no matter what year, relied on him a lot offensively.

It can be argued Miami relied on LeBron more--he was their leading scorer and primary facilitator. Their offense sucked without him--Chicago's didn't w/out MJ.


But MJ in plus/minus department, he pretty much lead not only the team, but the league on the offensive side almost every year in the RS and in the playoffs

Where are you getting this? We don't have detailed plus-minus info until 97', some info from 94' on but what I have seen doesn't break it down by D and O. Only 97' on.

In the 97' playoffs Pippen led them in ORAPM. He was 5th overall, MJ was 16th. https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/1996-97/playoffs/

In 98', MJ did--but Pippen was right behind him (MJ was 2nd overall, Pippen 5th). https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/1997-98/playoffs/

Is there another version of plus-minus that you have seen that shows what you are saying?


Although I would say that Miami had better talent in 2013, they didn't couldn't perform in the playoffs due to injuries unfortunately. While the Bulls maximize their talent as a team.

Better talent in a vacuum sure but against their comp?


Although I would say that Miami had better talent in 2013, they didn't couldn't perform in the playoffs due to injuries unfortunately. While the Bulls maximize their talent as a team.

Injuries piled up for the Bulls' in the second threepeat too. The difference is the Bulls' players did a better job overcoming injuries than the Heats' players did.

[Micku]

He did--it just gets erased because it is MJ. 93' ECF is the best example. Outside of that monster game, he was shooting 35% in the other five. 97' ECF is another.


You right about that!! I keep forgetting about those series. But I wouldn't say it's....like LeBron in 2013 or 2011 tho. It was more like....LeBron 2015 ish. Or pick some Kobe series in the finals? Or maybe like Larry Bird in 1981, but not as bad. Or KD when he went against Memphis in 2014.
But you're right it's under performing by his standards tho.



It can be argued Miami relied on LeBron more--he was their leading scorer and primary facilitator. Their offense sucked without him--Chicago's didn't w/out MJ.


It can. I think it is too. :cheers:

His offensive stats and plus/minus was among his best year of contributing to his team. The Bulls, imo, were better coached tho. Even though I think Miami was underrated in the coaching department because they had a system running the horns set and bit of the Princeton offense, running off of motion and backdoor cuts. It relied on LeBron to make it work. A lot of high screens, which is like the bread of butter of LeBron and Wade's game. But this can create a lot out off off the ball movement for shooters and/or Wade or LeBron to get in position in the post. Bosh would be normally be the pick guy to potentially kick out to.

Wade possibly could've done it too when healthy, but at this point he changed his game to allow LeBron to flourish more and at the same time he was regressing. I think at this time, LeBron and Chalmbers had the ball mostly in their hands. Wade took a step back. Although I don't have the stats here in 2013, but it continued on in 2014 and you can see that stats there on nba.com. But I don't think it was as good as the triangle or I think had role players who operate under the triangle more smoothly than Miami did.

But MJ had a lot in the offensive load in the 2nd peat still. He was definitely comparable, but in a different way. Dude was just a scoring machine in all the stats we have. Raw, per 36, per 100 poss. Just out of the charts. Lebron fills that all around game though.



Where are you getting this? We don't have detailed plus-minus info until 97', some info from 94' on but what I have seen doesn't break it down by D and O. Only 97' on.

In the 97' playoffs Pippen led them in ORAPM. He was 5th overall, MJ was 16th. https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/1996-97/playoffs/

In 98', MJ did--but Pippen was right behind him (MJ was 2nd overall, Pippen 5th). https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/1997-98/playoffs/

Is there another version of plus-minus that you have seen that shows what you are saying?


Basketball reference. They have both offensive/defensive plus minus. I know there other plus/minus stats. I remember a while back ppl were talking which one is better or which isn't. They go by different stats. I honestly don't remember conclusion if there was, but the stats cover slightly different things if I can recall. A little bit of the margin of the error with some of the shooting stats, but they go by slightly differently in the field as well as plus/minus. There was 82games, basketball-reference, I think hoopdata. Some guy over here tried to do it too with MJ first 3peat manually.



Better talent in a vacuum sure but against their comp?


Yeah, bit of both. I always consider Miami healthy to be one of the top 2 or 3 talented teams in the league. They problem with them is that they ran through that health issue at the wrong time. They had moments when they were and they played out of this world like an all time great team. Then playoffs hit, then bam. It's a reoccurring thing in LeBron's career pretty much. I'm surprise AD didn't get hurt to the point where he had to sit out. Anyway, I always thought the Thunder was the most talented. Bulls of the 90s were one of the most talented too, but I don't think they were the most talented teams. That was the Lakers in 97 and 98 and the Magic in 96 imo. The Lakers in the late 90s were just immature, didn't have roles defined and needed a better coach. Magic was similar. They needed a better coach.



Injuries piled up for the Bulls' in the second threepeat too. The difference is the Bulls' players did a better job overcoming injuries than the Heats' players did.

Definitely. It's a shame tho. Part of the game, but still a shame.

[MadDog]

Here's your problem. You're trying to elevate LeBron by diminishing Wade's contribution. I understand what you're saying perfectly. What I'm trying to show you is that it didn't matter. The playoffs saw 2/3 opponents being God awful, and a combo in the ECF of Hibbert/PG (young PG on top of that).

The finals Wade shows up and plays well, outplaying the opposition, but that is conveniently ignored.

I'm not the one here trying to prop up MJ and downplay LeBron. You and other Bran stans are doing just that for LeBron in order to put down MJ.

He doesn't even do a good job of that. We all saw what went down. In the 2013 playoffs, Wade had better a better combination of PER/BPM/VORP/WS than ANY OTHER eastern conference "sidekick". You also brought up the finals, well in that series Wade averaged the second most points and third highest GameScore (the second was Tim Duncan). But yeah Wade was "carried" :rolleyes: LeBron fans spend all day building narratives, and then when presenting them get quickly shut down :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

You right about that!! I keep forgetting about those series. But I wouldn't say it's....like LeBron in 2013 or 2011 tho. It was more like....LeBron 2015 ish. Or pick some Kobe series in the finals? Or maybe like Larry Bird in 1981, but not as bad. Or KD when he went against Memphis in 2014.

He definitely had less of those series than anyone (except for maybe KAJ?). My point was the MJ story has all those things airbrushed out of it.


Even though I think Miami was underrated in the coaching department because they had a system running the horns set and bit of the Princeton offense, running off of motion and backdoor cuts.

Yeah, and I think the perception of Spo has completely changed after this year. Everyone knew he was better than Brown, Lue, and Blatt but people attributed much of the success to LeBron. Now we know Spo is legit, albeit not PJ but only a few coaches are on that PJ level.


Basketball reference. They have both offensive/defensive plus minus. I know there other plus/minus stats.

Do you mean OBPM and DBPM? The only plus/minus I see is overall but maybe they updated it recently and I missed it.


Yeah, bit of both. I always consider Miami healthy to be one of the top 2 or 3 talented teams in the league.

That is fair.


Definitely. It's a shame tho. Part of the game, but still a shame.

It is one reason dynasties are hard. The RS is 82 games and if you make the finals you are adding 25% or so extra games. These teams did it multiple times. Aging also was a factor. Both Pippen and Wade got injured a lot more once they turned 30.

[Stanley Kobrick]

roundball rock always makes very good points, i learn a lot

[Roundball_Rock]

roundball rock always makes very good points, i learn a lot

:cheers:

[Micku]

Yeah, and I think the perception of Spo has completely changed after this year. Everyone knew he was better than Brown, Lue, and Blatt but people attributed much of the success to LeBron. Now we know Spo is legit, albeit not PJ but only a few coaches are on that PJ level.


Yeah. I always felt Spo got a bad rep post 2012.

But in 2011, I felt the criticism was valid. They had no offense. It was awkward as hell. They just took turns on offense by giving it LeBron and Wade. I remember watching a doc saying they spent all their time on defense, but not on offense. They felt like they had so much talent that it'll just come to them naturally. I had no idea what they were running in 2011. Pre 2011, Spo was okay. I think Wade gave him a lot of credit on improving on his mid range jumper. And just in general how they played the game. But in 09 and 10, it was just give the ball to Wade and get outta the way sometimes lol.



Do you mean OBPM and DBPM? The only plus/minus I see is overall but maybe they updated it recently and I missed it.


Yeah, check it out. I forgot when exactly they added it, but they cover things far. I know there are other sites that had some too, and the stats are a little bit different.

But you get some crazy stats with OBPM and DBPM. Check it out if you are interested. You get see the best OBPM and DBPM of each season, going back to 74.

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh got it. BPM, and its offshoots OBPM and DBPM, aren't actual plus-minus stats. They are estimates of it derived from box scores. RAPM (since 97'), augmented plus-minus (since 94'), RPM from ESPN take actual plus-minus data and they adjust it to give you a better snapshot of the impact of a player beyond "Danny Green was on the court and his team was +20 during that span." Jordan shines through any advanced metric of course. We just don't have it broken down by offense or defense for plus-minus outside of 97' and 98' for him (plus DC but that doesn't tell us anything about the real MJ).

[dankok8]

Honestly I think Jordan definitely worse help in 1997. Bosh and Allen were much better than anyone else not named Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc and Rodman were both hurt and played far beyond their ability. Pippen did more than Wade though so it is debatable. 1998 is debatable too with Pippen's injuries all season and than going AWOL halfway through the Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

1998 is debatable too with Pippen's injuries all season and than going AWOL halfway through the Finals.

This is a questionable characterization. He got hurt in Game 5. He didn't go "AWOL." He never recovered from that injury, as you know. Pippen was great through 4 games (getting FMVP talk)--which matters because that is when the Bulls accrued 3 of their 4 wins. It is a weird narrative. Jordan carried them in Game 6, Pippen was great in the first four and Kukoc had 30 in Game 5. The narrative tends to be Game 6 is what happened the entire series.

What did Stockton do in that series or the 97' series BTW? He is top 30 all-time. MJ fans criticize the hell out of Pippen but never say a word about Stockton, despite Pippen outplaying him in consecutive finals.

Their defense helped them overcome the issues with Kukoc and co. in 97' and heavy reliance on two players to do 55-60% of the scoring (or whatever the final # was). Who did anything against them on the other side? Malone shed 11% in TS in the finals, Stockton was the 4th best player in the series, Mourning and Hardaway didn't do much in the ECF, Smith and Laettner didn't light the world on fire, etc.

[dankok8]

This is a questionable characterization. He got hurt in Game 5. He didn't go "AWOL." He never recovered from that injury, as you know. Pippen was great through 4 games (getting FMVP talk)--which matters because that is when the Bulls accrued 3 of their 4 wins. It is a weird narrative. Jordan carried them in Game 6, Pippen was great in the first four and Kukoc had 30 in Game 5. The narrative tends to be Game 6 is what happened the entire series.

What did Stockton do in that series or the 97' series BTW? He is top 30 all-time. MJ fans criticize the hell out of Pippen but never say a word about Stockton, despite Pippen outplaying him in consecutive finals.

Their defense helped them overcome the issues with Kukoc and co. in 97' and heavy reliance on two players to do 55-60% of the scoring (or whatever the final # was). Who did anything against them on the other side? Malone shed 11% in TS in the finals, Stockton was the 4th best player in the series, Mourning and Hardaway didn't do much in the ECF, Smith and Laettner didn't light the world on fire, etc.

That's a valid point that opponent's underperforming should be evaluated as well although one can say that for Lebron's competition too. Pacers' star player PG 13 or Playoff P wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the 2013 ECF... in fact he almost always underwhelms in the playoffs. Then again to be fair, that Indy team was REALLY GOOD defensively on par with the 1997 Heat. I might even categorize them as historically good on defense.

[Micku]

Oh got it. BPM, and its offshoots OBPM and DBPM, aren't actual plus-minus stats. They are estimates of it derived from box scores. RAPM (since 97'), augmented plus-minus (since 94'), RPM from ESPN take actual plus-minus data and they adjust it to give you a better snapshot of the impact of a player beyond "Danny Green was on the court and his team was +20 during that span." Jordan shines through any advanced metric of course. We just don't have it broken down by offense or defense for plus-minus outside of 97' and 98' for him (plus DC but that doesn't tell us anything about the real MJ).

I never looked it up to see if it go strictly play by play. I know there are various of stats. PIPM, RPM, OBPM, DBPM, RAPM, and VORP. Each one is a little different, so you would have to put things into context. Espn uses RPM is RAPM blended with some box score stats. I think goes play by play? Adjusted with the team. But it only goes back to 2013-14 season. I think 82games used to do raw plus/minus. I forgot which site uses PIPM. Basketballreference use VORP and their new of BPM 2.0.

They all have reference to some degree and show you what the players that matter to their team. And it seems pretty accurate to the eye test as well. But there probably are flaws to almost everything if you use it in the wrong context.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's a valid point that opponent's underperforming should be evaluated as well although one can say that for Lebron's competition too. Pacers' star player PG 13 or Playoff P wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the 2013 ECF... in fact he almost always underwhelms in the playoffs. Then again to be fair, that Indy team was REALLY GOOD defensively on par with the 1997 Heat. I might even categorize them as historically good on defense.

Yeah, the Pacers' defense was their calling card. Like the 90's Knicks, their problem was their offense. These teams would have won chips if they had decent offenses along with their #1 defenses. They didn't have to be the 17' Warriors, just competent enough to get baskets down the stretch in big games. Neither were (you have to wonder if the Knicks kept Mark Jackson would that have been different?).

Hibbert was excellent in the ECF. People forget it since he did little in 14' and disappeared shortly after that as the game changed but Hibbert was the main reason the Pacers overperformed (if we are talking individual players--so Hibbert plus the elite defense).

[Micku]

That's a valid point that opponent's underperforming should be evaluated as well although one can say that for Lebron's competition too. Pacers' star player PG 13 or Playoff P wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the 2013 ECF... in fact he almost always underwhelms in the playoffs. Then again to be fair, that Indy team was REALLY GOOD defensively on par with the 1997 Heat. I might even categorize them as historically good on defense.

I feel like the defense on itself shouldn't be used across eras as a legit comparison because of the different rules and strategies and what they could do and how offense are run. They are so many factors to consider, and you'll get weird results. But I think both you and roundball_Rock are right about the defense of the Pacers. They were really really good. It carried them. And Roy Hibbert became old Kareem everytime when he faced the Heat in the playoffs in 13. I felt that was the biggest mismatch. He was the reason why the Heat had so much trouble.

[Roundball_Rock]

I feel like the defense on itself shouldn't be used across eras as a legit comparison because of the different rules and strategies and what they could do and how offense are run. They are so many factors to consider, and you'll get weird results. But I think both you and roundball_Rock are right about the defense of the Pacers. They were really really good. It carried them. And Roy Hibbert became old Kareem everytime when he faced the Heat in the playoffs in 13. I felt that was the biggest mismatch. He was the reason why the Heat had so much trouble.

Is there any career like Hibbert's? He was the best player not named LeBron on the floor in an ECF that had Wade, Bosh, and George in it in 13'. He made his second all-star team in 14'. Two years later he was a 6/5/1 player in LA. He played one more season (5/3/0) and was out the NBA at age 30. The ground completely shifted under him almost overnight (Pero Antic) and he went from productive player on a good team to useless.