Here's 2 ways to understand how great Jordan was...

[3ball]

1) Lebron was a candidate for DPOY and MVP in 2013, just like 88-98' MJ... so 88-98' MJ = 2013 Lebron or better

2) James Harden averaged 35 ppg, so if he was the DPOY, that would equal 88-98' MJ, who was a scoring champ and dpoy candidate that entire time

[1987_Lakers]

MJ never received more than 9 first place votes for DPOY from '89-'98, he was never a serious candidate for DPOY in those years. Guys like Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob were clearly more impactful defenders throughout the 90's and it wasn't even close. Even Scottie from '95-'98 was a better defender than MJ.

[Gus Hemmingway]

4 rebounds and 2 assists aka lowest production from a FMVP ever

[GrayGoat]

Pippen would routinely take the more challenging defensive assignment compared to MJ

[dbugz]

4 rebounds and 2 assists aka lowest production from a FMVP ever

libron as the main guy scored 8 points against an old shawn marion is much much worse.

aint no coming back from that.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ClearcutOpenJavalina-size_restricted.gif

b!tch

[GrayGoat]

libron as the main guy scored 8 points against an old shawn marion is much much worse.

aint no coming back from that.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ClearcutOpenJavalina-size_restricted.gif

b!tch

What are your thoughts on 2016? How about 2020? You sound like you are on the rag boi

[TheCorporation]

MJ never received more than 9 first place votes for DPOY from '89-'98, he was never a serious candidate for DPOY in those years. Guys like Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob were clearly more impactful defenders throughout the 90's and it wasn't even close. Even Scottie from '95-'98 was a better defender than MJ.

Bingo

[TheCorporation]

4 rebounds and 2 assists aka lowest production from a FMVP ever

Double BINGO

[HoopsNY]

MJ never received more than 9 first place votes for DPOY from '89-'98, he was never a serious candidate for DPOY in those years. Guys like Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob were clearly more impactful defenders throughout the 90's and it wasn't even close. Even Scottie from '95-'98 was a better defender than MJ.

I can understand not being a serious candidate, but to act like the other defenders in any other given year were so much more impactful is strange.

1989: MJ finished ahead of Fat Lever and Patrick Ewing
1990: MJ tied with guys like Eaton and Ewing
1991: MJ tied with guys like Pippen and Stockton
1992: MJ tied with Pippen, finished ahead of Rodman, Dumars, and Hakeem
1993: MJ tied with Robinson for 2nd, finished ahead of guys like Ewing and Oakley
1996: MJ finished ahead of Rodman and one less vote than Hakeem

But he wasn't as impactful?

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan was the better defender peak wise and more consistent as a defender prime versus prime than LeBron.

Damn, you actually have a legitimate argument for once? :lebronamazed:

[1987_Lakers]

I can understand not being a serious candidate, but to act like the other defenders in any other given year were so much more impactful is strange.

1989: MJ finished ahead of Fat Lever and Patrick Ewing
1990: MJ tied with guys like Eaton and Ewing
1991: MJ tied with guys like Pippen and Stockton
1992: MJ tied with Pippen, finished ahead of Rodman, Dumars, and Hakeem
1993: MJ tied with Robinson for 2nd, finished ahead of guys like Ewing and Oakley
1996: MJ finished ahead of Rodman and one less vote than Hakeem

But he wasn't as impactful?

Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob were big men who were elite rim protectors, you are talking about the elite of the elite of all-time defensive players, it's not a knock on MJ, but big men who are elite rim protectors will always be more impactful defenders than guards.

MJ isn't even as impactful as LeBron's defensive peak. LeBron can guard smalls, bigs, and provides some rim protection. Yes, MJ was a more consistent defender, but look at the 2016 Finals for example, you think MJ could dominate defensively like LeBron did for an entire series? Nope.

[red1]

1 star

[HoopsNY]

Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob were big men who were elite rim protectors, you are talking about the elite of the elite of all-time defensive players, it's not a knock on MJ, but big men who are elite rim protectors will always be more impactful defenders than guards.

Not sure what games you were watching. In 1993, Phil Jackson switched MJ onto Kevin Johnson in game 3 and utterly shut him down, holding him to something like one field goal when he guarded him for the game.

I remember watching that game and hearing Mike Fratello say, "they put the best defensive player in the game on Kevin Johnson." When Ron Harper got hurt in the '96 finals, who was tasked with guarding Gary Payton?

Who was more successful against Penny in the ECF? Who primarily guarded Magic in the '91 finals? Who shut down Detroit's leading scorer, Joe Dumars in the '91 ECF?

Furthermore, you said "he wasn't as impactful.....not even close!". The DPOY voting clearly paints a different picture, and you still can't admit that you're wrong.


MJ isn't even as impactful as LeBron's defensive peak. LeBron can guard smalls, bigs, and provides some rim protection. Yes, MJ was a more consistent defender, but look at the 2016 Finals for example, you think MJ could dominate defensively like LeBron did for an entire series? Nope.

You're kidding me, right? First of all, guarding "bigs" means what if you're not actually great at it. LeBron was never great at guarding all 5 positions. And you're acting as if you can't put MJ on PJ Tucker. Give me a break. Phil Jackson switched MJ onto Vlade Divac in 1991. Who cares?

LeBron was 31 in the 2016 finals (or 32 I forget). MJ at 31 wouldn't be an effective defender? LeBron wasn't even an All-Defensive player then (his last All-Defensive selection came in 2014)). Yet somehow MJ wouldn't be able to be an elite defender for an entire series? Laughable.

MJ was...

All-Defensive 1st Team 1996 (32)
All-Defensive 1st Team 1997 (33)
All-Defensive 1st Team 1998 (34)

Your problem is that you're hate driven and focus more on diminishing from MJ's legacy rather than what actually happened.

[sdot_thadon]

OP coming through in the clutch again with yet another shit thread that somehow diminishes Mj rather than make him look good. Who's side are you on anyway?

If you want to talk about understanding how great Mj was it's simple, he played the game in a way that was imaginative for the time he played, and by that I mean took what his predecessors did to a new level of artistry and execution. The numbers and the winning validate his impact. The End. Enough with all these retarded, convoluted arguments with faulty numbers. Just stick to what he really did, that's more than enough to explain his greatness.

[1987_Lakers]

Not sure what games you were watching. In 1993, Phil Jackson switched MJ onto Kevin Johnson in game 3 and utterly shut him down, holding him to something like one field goal when he guarded him for the game.

I remember watching that game and hearing Mike Fratello say, "they put the best defensive player in the game on Kevin Johnson." When Ron Harper got hurt in the '96 finals, who was tasked with guarding Gary Payton?

Who was more successful against Penny in the ECF? Who primarily guarded Magic in the '91 finals? Who shut down Detroit's leading scorer, Joe Dumars in the '91 ECF?

Furthermore, you said "he wasn't as impactful.....not even close!". The DPOY voting clearly paints a different picture, and you still can't admit that you're wrong.



You're kidding me, right? First of all, guarding "bigs" means what if you're not actually great at it. LeBron was never great at guarding all 5 positions. And you're acting as if you can't put MJ on PJ Tucker. Give me a break. Phil Jackson switched MJ onto Vlade Divac in 1991. Who cares?

LeBron was 31 in the 2016 finals (or 32 I forget). MJ at 31 wouldn't be an effective defender? LeBron wasn't even an All-Defensive player then (his last All-Defensive selection came in 2014)). Yet somehow MJ wouldn't be able to be an elite defender for an entire series? Laughable.

MJ was...

All-Defensive 1st Team 1996 (32)
All-Defensive 1st Team 1997 (33)
All-Defensive 1st Team 1998 (34)

Your problem is that you're hate driven and focus more on diminishing from MJ's legacy rather than what actually happened.

I said MJ was more consistent, LeBron at his defensive peak was better due to his versatility. LeBron guarded guys like MVP Rose, Tony Parker, Kawhi, Murray, and he has guarded big men like Pau, Horford etc all at a high level while Divac torched MJ in the Finals and LeBron provides rim protection MJ could only dream of. He is simply more versatile, making him a more impactful defender. I can only imagine how effective LeBron would be as a 90's defender with hand checking.

If MJ was such an "impactful" defender, why did Chicago's defense improve without him in '94? That right there should tell you everything you need to know about impact as a defender. Take Hakeem away from the Rockets, or D-Rob from the Spurs, those teams would fall apart defensively, but because guard defense isn't that impactful, the Bulls really saw no drop off.

man defense - MJ
Rim protector - LeBron
Versatility in guarding multiple positions - LeBron
Transition defense - LeBron
Help D - About the same

This shouldn't be a question, LeBron is the man you take if you are looking for a defensive anchor. If we are talking about overall careers, MJ was better defensively because he was simply more consistent, but both in their defensive prime? LeBron 10 times out of 10.

[Roundball_Rock]

Not sure what games you were watching. In 1993, Phil Jackson switched MJ onto Kevin Johnson in game 3 and utterly shut him down, holding him to something like one field goal when he guarded him for the game.

I remember watching that game and hearing Mike Fratello say, "they put the best defensive player in the game on Kevin Johnson." When Ron Harper got hurt in the '96 finals, who was tasked with guarding Gary Payton?

Who was more successful against Penny in the ECF? Who primarily guarded Magic in the '91 finals? Who shut down Detroit's leading scorer, Joe Dumars in the '91 ECF?

Furthermore, you said "he wasn't as impactful.....not even close!". The DPOY voting clearly paints a different picture, and you still can't admit that you're wrong.



You're kidding me, right? First of all, guarding "bigs" means what if you're not actually great at it. LeBron was never great at guarding all 5 positions. And you're acting as if you can't put MJ on PJ Tucker. Give me a break. Phil Jackson switched MJ onto Vlade Divac in 1991. Who cares?

LeBron was 31 in the 2016 finals (or 32 I forget). MJ at 31 wouldn't be an effective defender? LeBron wasn't even an All-Defensive player then (his last All-Defensive selection came in 2014)). Yet somehow MJ wouldn't be able to be an elite defender for an entire series? Laughable.

MJ was...

All-Defensive 1st Team 1996 (32)
All-Defensive 1st Team 1997 (33)
All-Defensive 1st Team 1998 (34)

Your problem is that you're hate driven and focus more on diminishing from MJ's legacy rather than what actually happened.

Damn, so this guy actually did watch those games and still pretends Pippen didn't dominate the 98' finals and 98' ECF defensively or Rodman on the glass in the 96' finals--talk about focusing on hate rather than what actually happened. :oldlol:

What did the commentators say in 1998? You know the answer. Will you admit it or only Fratello quotes when convenient?


Who primarily guarded Magic in the '91 finals?

And got roasted. :oldlol: No mention of who was more effective at guarding Magic? Only for Penny?

[Gohan]

What are your thoughts on 2016? How about 2020? You sound like you are on the rag boi

He played good in 16 but 2020 was meh not impressed at all. Everyone put up great stats on 20

[3ball]

MJ never received more than 9 first place votes for DPOY from '89-'98, he was never a serious candidate for DPOY in those years. Guys like Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob were clearly more impactful defenders throughout the 90's and it wasn't even close. Even Scottie from '95-'98 was a better defender than MJ.

jordan's EVERY YEAR STANDARD was scoring champ and top 5 dpoy - that's a much higher standard than lebron on both ends, so MJ was much better

[1987_Lakers]

jordan's EVERY YEAR STANDARD was scoring champ and top 5 dpoy - that's a much higher standard than lebron on both ends, so MJ was much better

"top 5 dpoy" :oldlol:

He was getting 3-5 first place votes out of 100 votes in those years, not even close to winning dpoy.

I'm not going to put too much stock in those votings. LeBron finished 2nd in the DPOY voting in 2014 despite playing his worst defensive season since 2008. People who vote for dpoy are not tracking every defensive play from every player, the entire season and there are no good stats to track just how good of a defensive player you are.

Voters also robbed Hakeem of a dpoy in 1988, Hakeem was clearly a more impactful defender that year.

[3ball]

"top 5 dpoy" :oldlol:

He was getting 3-5 first place votes out of 100 votes in those years, not even close to winning dpoy.

I'm not going to put too much stock in those votings. LeBron finished 2nd in the DPOY voting in 2014 despite playing his worst defensive season since 2008. People who vote for dpoy are not tracking every defensive play from every player, the entire season and there are no good stats to track just how good of a defensive player you are.

Voters also robbed Hakeem of a dpoy in 1988, Hakeem was clearly a more impactful defender that year.

Lebron's scoring standard - top 10

Jordan's scoring standard - #1


Lebron's defensive standard - nothing.. no all-defense in 7 years

Jordan's defensive standard - top 5 dpoy every year



Conclusion: Jordan was a much better basketball player than Lebron


:confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Is scoring the only statistical category? What about assists? Rebounds? How many times was MJ top 20 in assists, for example? We just saw LeBron lead the league in assists in his 17th season, "bird feeding" (as you would say) AD and others easy baskets.

[1987_Lakers]

Is scoring the only statistical category? What about assists? Rebounds? How many times was MJ top 20 in assists, for example? We just saw LeBron lead the league in assists in his 17th season, "bird feeding" (as you would say) AD and others easy baskets.

:oldlol:

LeBron is the greatest passing forward in NBA history, it's a big part of his game, funny how 3ball just completely ignores that.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol:

LeBron is the greatest passing forward in NBA history, it's a big part of his game, funny how 3ball just completely ignores that.

Yup, plus we just saw him put up 11 boards a game in the playoffs as a PG (he put up 11 in 15' as well). He outrebounded big men like AD and Love during entire playoff runs. As we know, MJ usually was 3rd in rebounding on his team.

With other players 1-9ball is quick to talk efficiency but not with LeBron and MJ. You know why. :lol

[And1AllDay]

mikey took breaks on defense like kawhi did in regular season, mike load managed in the playoffs

steals leaders in playoff run wins

bran led his team in playoff steals 4 for 4
mike led his team in playoff steals 2 for 6
pippen led his team in playoff steals 4 for 6

[3ball]

Is scoring the only statistical category? What about assists? Rebounds? How many times was MJ top 20 in assists, for example? We just saw LeBron lead the league in assists in his 17th season, "bird feeding" (as you would say) AD and others easy baskets.

It hurts a team if the SG averages 10 rebounds

and assists are a team decision to let one guy dominate the ball (lebron, nash, cp3), or move the ball (parker, curry, mj)

Regardless, MJ was a great passer and everyone said he was the best PG in the league after just a few games at PG in 1989..

he's also the only player to average 10 apg in a series without starting at PG.. so he was a better quick-passer than lebron (getting assists without holding the ball a long time).

And MJ led the bulls in passing - he averaged equal assists to pippen but assisted 33% more often (MJ shot more than pippen and can't assist on those shots)

Btw, MJ averaged 8 rpg in the 97' Playoffs to tie Rodman because pippen was MIA... MJ he led the bulls in everything for that run

Ultimately, MJ was a great rebounder and passer, so these secondary categories can't offset his big lead in the primary caregory (scoring)

[And1AllDay]

heres 8 ways to understand how great bran was



https://i.postimg.cc/kGSrjPvJ/LeBron_James_Dominates.png
https://i.postimg.cc/DwpZ21Db/7,491_shrug.png

[1987_Lakers]

His tendency to pass up open teammates prompted me to track just how frequently he missed opportunities to create for them.2 From 1985-88, he created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays. Ironically, some of the most efficient offense is generated by simply passing to open players, and he missed layup opportunities as well as spot-up shooters with regularity:

But suboptimal court vision isn’t easily correctable and myopia sometimes limited the value of his passes. Not all creation is equal either, and Jordan was inconsistent in finding the high-value spots on the court. He could stubbornly lock into a scoring mode, relentlessly probing for his own shot in lieu of high-percentage passes right under the hoop, ignoring uber-finisher Scottie Pippen on the baseline in the next clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title

In over 1,100 offensive possessions tracked, MJ hit over 2 “good” passes per 100 with a passing profile slightly behind Dwyane Wade’s and Kobe Bryant’s.

https://backpicks.com/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/

[Roundball_Rock]

mikey took breaks on defense like kawhi did in regular season, mike load managed in the playoffs

steals leaders in playoff run wins

bran led his team in playoff steals 4 for 4
mike led his team in playoff steals 2 for 6
pippen led his team in playoff steals 4 for 6

Here is the info for some other categories for the Bulls and LeBron's teams (playoff numbers).

1991: Pippen RPG, MJ APG
1992: Pippen RPG, Pippen APG
1993: Grant RPG, MJ APG
1995: Pippen RPG, Pippen APG
1996: Rodman RPG, Pippen APG
1997: Rodman RPG, MJ APG
1998: Rodman RPG, Pippen APG

So in rebounding and assists, in these seven playoff runs, Jordan led 3x out of 14 total opportunities.

2007: Ilgauskas RPG, LeBron APG
2011: Bosh RPG, LeBron APG
2012: LeBron RPG, LeBron APG
2013: LeBron RPG, LeBron APG
2014: LeBron RPG, LeBron APG
2015: LeBron RPG, LeBron APG
2016: LeBron RPG, LeBron APG
2017: Love RPG, LeBron APG
2018: Love RPG, LeBron APG
2020: LeBron RPG, LeBron APG

LeBron outrebounding Bosh, Love, AD on the regular :oldlol: .

[3ball]

His tendency to pass up open teammates prompted me to track just how frequently he missed opportunities to create for them.2 From 1985-88, he created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays. Ironically, some of the most efficient offense is generated by simply passing to open players, and he missed layup opportunities as well as spot-up shooters with regularity:

But suboptimal court vision isn’t easily correctable and myopia sometimes limited the value of his passes. Not all creation is equal either, and Jordan was inconsistent in finding the high-value spots on the court. He could stubbornly lock into a scoring mode, relentlessly probing for his own shot in lieu of high-percentage passes right under the hoop, ignoring uber-finisher Scottie Pippen on the baseline in the next clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title

In over 1,100 offensive possessions tracked, MJ hit over 2 “good” passes per 100 with a passing profile slightly behind Dwyane Wade’s and Kobe Bryant’s.

https://backpicks.com/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/


^^^ those are made up stats

Provide the source that Backpicks' used for the data - exactly - they don't provide it.. such data doesn't exist

Otoh, the quote below is fact - the media said MJ was the best PG in the league after just a few games at the position in 1989:



"No other NBA player has made a change of more league-altering significance. Los Angeles Lakers point guard Magic Johnson played center against Philadelphia in the 1980 NBA Finals, but that lasted only one game. In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league’s leading scorer the last two seasons to being lumped with Johnson, John Stockton of Utah and Isiah Thomas of Detroit as the elite among NBA point guards. Jordan may already be the best of the group."

https://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

[1987_Lakers]

^^^ those are made up stats

Provide the source that Backpicks' used for the data - exactly - they don't provide it.. such data doesn't exist

Otoh, the quote below is fact - the media said MJ was the best PG in the league after just a few games at the position in 1989:



"No other NBA player has made a change of more league-altering significance. Los Angeles Lakers point guard Magic Johnson played center against Philadelphia in the 1980 NBA Finals, but that lasted only one game. In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league’s leading scorer the last two seasons to being lumped with Johnson, John Stockton of Utah and Isiah Thomas of Detroit as the elite among NBA point guards. Jordan may already be the best of the group."

https://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

At the end of the 1989 season, Jordan was explicitly asked to pass more as the “point guard” and the Bulls offense showed signs of breaking through. Over the final 24 games, he averaged 11 assists per night and Chicago improved its efficiency by about 2 points, posting a +2.9 rORtg. It wasn’t a huge shift, but it was another instance where a team’s most talented scorer helped it more by shooting less.

Just proves that Bron ball is more effective.

Problem is MJ was ultimately a selfish player early in his career, Phil had to scream at MJ to pass the ball to an open Paxson during the playoffs, he did become less selfish throughout the 90's, but his passing never got to an elite level like LeBron.

[Roundball_Rock]

His tendency to pass up open teammates prompted me to track just how frequently he missed opportunities to create for them.2 From 1985-88, he created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays. Ironically, some of the most efficient offense is generated by simply passing to open players, and he missed layup opportunities as well as spot-up shooters with regularity:

But suboptimal court vision isn’t easily correctable and myopia sometimes limited the value of his passes. Not all creation is equal either, and Jordan was inconsistent in finding the high-value spots on the court. He could stubbornly lock into a scoring mode, relentlessly probing for his own shot in lieu of high-percentage passes right under the hoop, ignoring uber-finisher Scottie Pippen on the baseline in the next clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title

In over 1,100 offensive possessions tracked, MJ hit over 2 “good” passes per 100 with a passing profile slightly behind Dwyane Wade’s and Kobe Bryant’s.

https://backpicks.com/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/

:lebronamazed:

It is funny how whenever info comes out that doesn't fit the MJ stain fairy tale they dismiss it. We are supposed to simply take their word for everything that happened in the 90's. :lol

Jordan fans complain he had "no help" in the 89' ECF, citing teammate scoring, but his own coach criticized him for ball hogging in the series and wanted MJ to involve them in the offense once in a while, which led to MJ's shenanigans in Game 5.

That clip speaks for itself. There was an easy 2 points available for the Bulls--we know LeBron would have made the correct play in that situation. Jordan didn't and his stans will say he had "no help" and had to do it all by himself and shoot over 2 defenders --when the "help" was sitting there waiting to dunk. :oldlol:


Phil had to scream at MJ to pass the ball to an open Paxson during the playoffs

Think about that, and he had to do it with a 7th year player who had played about 600 NBA games at that point...LeBron never needed to be "taught" to pass to wide open teammates.

[Shooter]

At the end of the 1989 season, Jordan was explicitly asked to pass more as the “point guard” and the Bulls offense showed signs of breaking through. Over the final 24 games, he averaged 11 assists per night and Chicago improved its efficiency by about 2 points, posting a +2.9 rORtg. It wasn’t a huge shift, but it was another instance where a team’s most talented scorer helped it more by shooting less.

Just proves that Bron ball is more effective.

Problem is MJ was ultimately a selfish player early in his career, Phil had to scream at MJ to pass the ball to an open Paxson during the playoffs, he did become less selfish throughout the 90's, but his passing never got to an elite level like LeBron.

Fax

[dbugz]

:lebronamazed:

It is funny how whenever info comes out that doesn't fit the MJ stain fairy tale they dismiss it. We are supposed to simply take their word for everything that happened in the 90's. :lol

Jordan fans complain he had "no help" in the 89' ECF, citing teammate scoring, but his own coach criticized him for ball hogging in the series and wanted MJ to involve them in the offense once in a while, which led to MJ's shenanigans in Game 5.

That clip speaks for itself. There was an easy 2 points available for the Bulls--we know LeBron would have made the correct play in that situation. Jordan didn't and his stans will say he had "no help" and had to do it all by himself and shoot over 2 defenders --when the "help" was sitting there waiting to dunk. :oldlol:



Think about that, and he had to do it with a 7th year player who had played about 600 NBA games at that point...LeBron never needed to be "taught" to pass to wide open teammates.

you got libron behind mj stfu :oldlol: :roll:

[3ball]

At the end of the 1989 season, Jordan was explicitly asked to pass more as the “point guard” and the Bulls offense showed signs of breaking through. Over the final 24 games, he averaged 11 assists per night and Chicago improved its efficiency by about 2 points, posting a +2.9 rORtg. It wasn’t a huge shift, but it was another instance where a team’s most talented scorer helped it more by shooting less.

Just proves that Bron ball is more effective.

Problem is MJ was ultimately a selfish player early in his career, Phil had to scream at MJ to pass the ball to an open Paxson during the playoffs, he did become less selfish throughout the 90's, but his passing never got to an elite level like LeBron.

^^^ a lie

Jordan took over the PG spot because the regular PG went down with injury

Jordan immediately averaged 11 APG and everyone said he was the best PG in the league after just 16 games at the new position, aka goat shit:



"No other NBA player has made a change of more league-altering significance. Los Angeles Lakers point guard Magic Johnson played center against Philadelphia in the 1980 NBA Finals, but that lasted only one game. In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league’s leading scorer the last two seasons to being lumped with Johnson, John Stockton of Utah and Isiah Thomas of Detroit as the elite among NBA point guards. Jordan may already be the best of the group."

https://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/


JORDAN'S AVERAGES AT PG.... 30/9/11 on 50%

[HoopsNY]

I said MJ was more consistent, LeBron at his defensive peak was better due to his versatility.

This is what you actually said...


MJ never received more than 9 first place votes for DPOY from '89-'98, he was never a serious candidate for DPOY in those years. Guys like Hakeem, Mutombo, & D-Rob were clearly more impactful defenders throughout the 90's and it wasn't even close. Even Scottie from '95-'98 was a better defender than MJ.

You began by talking about how many first place votes MJ received, but conveniently left out the fact that MJ consistently finished ahead of many of the greatest defensive players, ever.


LeBron guarded guys like MVP Rose, Tony Parker, Kawhi, Murray, and he has guarded big men like Pau, Horford etc all at a high level while Divac torched MJ in the Finals and LeBron provides rim protection MJ could only dream of. He is simply more versatile, making him a more impactful defender. I can only imagine how effective LeBron would be as a 90's defender with hand checking.

This is the level of media biased narrative that is pushed on people, like yourself, who then go and believe it.

I'll give you his defensive play on Derrick Rose. But keep in mind that spanned about 2 games, whereas we saw how "well" LeBron played against Parker in 2007 or Curry from 2014-2018. I find it disingenuous to hinge the entire argument on a series of plays and not an entire body of work that spanned many years.

Even if we say, "well his peak was different," then show me how. LeBron played more PF then and wasn't a dominant defensive force against guards. Small sample = Certainty all of a sudden?

The same can be said about the defensive play on Parker, which presumably is about 2013, with no mention of 2014. How convenient.

Kawhi torched LeBron this season and in the 2014 finals. Yet somehow the narrative is that because he defended him, then we should say this means something? Laughable. What's next, should I say that Jordan is versatile because of his defense on Adrian Dantley? Think man!

Al Horford? Are you kidding me? Since when was he a threat to anyone?

Gasol is another example of a revisionist narrative. LeBron gets credited for a series of plays in a regular season game outside of Pau's prime. By virtue of a series of plays, he can suddenly dominate centers defensively. Amazing.

Jamal Murray wasn't the same player in the WCF as he was the first two rounds, but what games were you watching? Murray averaged 25 PPG and shot 52% (63% TS%).

The 1991 finals was a very long time ago so my memory escapes me, but Divac didn't "torch" MJ. Did you even watch that series? One on one, Divac scored once, with another field goal off of an offensive rebound tip in I believe. This is your "torching"? It's clear you're not interested in actual facts or analysis.

I don't believe in this "versatility" argument unless you're a player who can legitimately defend all 5 positions well. LeBron couldn't do that. Versatile? Yes. Great defensively against all 5 positions? No. You want to put that label on someone? Put it on Dennis Rodman.

What's next? Carmelo in his Knicks days could guard 4/5 positions, so on the basis of versatility, we prefer him over MJ? This is laughable. without context that considers the era of position-less basketball.


If MJ was such an "impactful" defender, why did Chicago's defense improve without him in '94? That right there should tell you everything you need to know about impact as a defender.

Because Grant, Armstrong, and Pippen entered their peaks. Players do that ya know? Furthermore, 1993 was a bit of an outlier. Chicago went from winning 67 games to 57, so naturally their analytics fell.


Take Hakeem away from the Rockets, or D-Rob from the Spurs, those teams would fall apart defensively, but because guard defense isn't that impactful, the Bulls really saw no drop off.

Or maybe because they didn't have a guard with MJ's defensive capability? Who were the elite defensive guards on Houston and San Antonio? Elie? Smith? Cassell? Johnson? Maxwell? Del Negro? Give me a break.

[HoopsNY]

man defense - MJ
Rim protector - LeBron
Versatility in guarding multiple positions - LeBron
Transition defense - LeBron
Help D - About the same

Rim protector? More lies. So now LeBron is a perennial defensive rebounder and shot blocker, too? LeBron averages around 8 rebounds and less than a block a game as a PF. Amazing what constitutes being regarded as a legit rim protector just as what constitutes defending all 5 positions well.

Jordan averaged close to 7 rebounds in his peak as a SG, he's the best SG ever. Put him down low on the regular and he's not ALSO averaging the same and if not, MORE blocks?

As for help defense, then I really don't believe you watched MJ play. How old are you? MJ was the best help defender of his time, with the exception being Hakeem and David Robinson.

Did you watch him play in the 1986 series against Boston? If so, you saw him go from the low post to the top of the key in a milisecond to help on defense. His instincts and basketball IQ allowed for him to rack up steals because he would anticipate passes in the passing lane better than anyone including Bird.


This shouldn't be a question, LeBron is the man you take if you are looking for a defensive anchor. If we are talking about overall careers, MJ was better defensively because he was simply more consistent, but both in their defensive prime? LeBron 10 times out of 10.

Why, because you said so? Jordan was the better lock down defender and help defender. If you're better at both, then you're the better defender. You didn't watch MJ play and it's obvious from your ridiculous takes. Go look at MJ play defense between 1988-93 and come back.

[HoopsNY]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14168165]Damn, so this guy actually did watch those games and still pretends Pippen didn't dominate the 98' finals and 98' ECF defensively or Rodman on the glass in the 96' finals--talk about focusing on hate rather than what actually happened. :oldlol:

I never said anything about the ECF. So I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. But "dominate' is a strong word. Dominate against who, exactly? Byron Russell? Should I claim Stockton "dominated" Ron Harper and Steve Kerr, too?

I know how well Rodman played in 1996. That's not what I originally had said. You continue to lie against me and what I actually say.


And got roasted. :oldlol: No mention of who was more effective at guarding Magic? Only for Penny?

I never denied Pippen was the better defender in the 1991 finals, but1987_Lakers wants to discuss "impact." We're looking at a large sample size that shows MJ was significantly impactful, both in the regular season and playoffs/finals.

Why is that a crime? Why do you contest the obvious truth every time I bring it up?

Furthermore, MJ was tasked with guarding Magic the majority of the series, but it's funny how there is no mention of how well Worthy played against Pippen and no mention of how Jordan would switch or play help defense against Scott.

Lastly, we want to discuss "impact" but conveniently leave out the game 3 OT in LA with the series tied at 1. That game shifted the series entirely.

Pippen fouled out, so guess who guarded and shutdown Magic in the OT? :lol

"Impact"

[1987_Lakers]

Rim protector? More lies. So now LeBron is a perennial defensive rebounder and shot blocker, too? LeBron averages around 8 rebounds and less than a block a game as a PF. Amazing what constitutes being regarded as a legit rim protector just as what constitutes defending all 5 positions well.

Jordan averaged close to 7 rebounds in his peak as a SG, he's the best SG ever. Put him down low on the regular and he's not ALSO averaging the same and if not, MORE blocks?

As for help defense, then I really don't believe you watched MJ play. How old are you? MJ was the best help defender of his time, with the exception being Hakeem and David Robinson.

Did you watch him play in the 1986 series against Boston? If so, you saw him go from the low post to the top of the key in a milisecond to help on defense. His instincts and basketball IQ allowed for him to rack up steals because he would anticipate passes in the passing lane better than anyone including Bird.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF3DeRybsyQ&index=3754&list=LLpkYPE8zm-5ywi3uZNdWDjg

The fact that you think MJ is on LeBron's level as a rim protector is laughable. MJ was simply too small.

And yes, if asked too LeBron could guard 1-4 all at a high level, he has done it before. MJ couldn't do that.

These are also examples of LeBron's elite help defense...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=tj-5oAaw10g&feature=emb_title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=8lsdKAtlXGg&feature=emb_title

LeBron has the ability to switch on multiple players, including bigs and smalls, he provides some rim protection, he is the greatest transition defender ever, elite help defender in his defensive prime. Sorry, he is simply more impactful defensively than Jordan.

And I am not in the minority on this...

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1454891

[light]

1) Lebron was a candidate for DPOY and MVP in 2013, just like 88-98' MJ... so 88-98' MJ = 2013 Lebron or better

2) James Harden averaged 35 ppg, so if he was the DPOY, that would equal 88-98' MJ, who was a scoring champ and dpoy candidate that entire time

That's actually irrelevant.

1988 Jordan did not know how to win. He knew how to get steals and blocks and how to score - he knew how to impress onlookers with his athleticism - but he didn't know what he was doing in terms of winning games.

2013 LeBron was far superior to 1988 Jordan in basically every single way - offensively and defensively - and 2013 LeBron is not even the best LeBron.

[dankok8]

Lebron is more versatile than MJ in that he could guard PF's. MJ could still guard 1-3 very effectively though. As a man defender, he was better than Lebron by far. Help defense and rim protection/shot blocking they were close to even. Lebron may be a bit better but not by much. MJ was much more consistent and takes the edge career wise although I'd be willing to say peak Lebron vs peak Jordan was a wash defensively.

[3ball]

That's actually irrelevant.

1988 Jordan did not know how to win. He knew how to get steals and blocks and how to score - he knew how to impress onlookers with his athleticism - but he didn't know what he was doing in terms of winning games.

2013 LeBron was far superior to 1988 Jordan in basically every single way - offensively and defensively - and 2013 LeBron is not even the best LeBron.

Jordan knew how to win but simply had a sidekick that averaged 10 ppg

Jordan easily beats the 88-90' Pistons with a better sidekick (12 on 42% for pippen vs 88-90' Pistons)

It's not like Jordan wet the bed against the Pistons with 22 on 35% like young lebron against the Spurs and Celtics.. Jordan never had a bad series, so anytime he lost, it was pippen's fault..

for example, the only reason the 92' ECSF went 7 games is because pippen was horrible... Ditto the 98' ECF, 96' Finals and many, many more

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron leads his team in rebounding in the playoffs nearly every year, including when he has "monster big men" like Bosh, Love, and "Kareem" on his team. If he isn't a great rebounder, why did he, as a PG, just outrebound "Kareem"? :lol

Jordan's career high in rebounds in the PO is 7.9; LeBron's is 11.3. LeBron's second worst was on par with MJ's best. Their TRB % is consistent with the raw numbers, so pace (which we apply to one Chicago Bull) does not explain it.

This is an example of how Jordan has to be the best at everything. LeBron clearly is the superior rebounder but even that obvious fact that can't be conceded. :oldlol:


LeBron averages around 8 rebounds and less than a block a game as a PF.

When did LeBron play PF? :confusedshrug: He has been a SF his entire career until this year when he played PG.

[dbugz]

LeBron leads his team in rebounding in the playoffs nearly every year, including when he has "monster big men" like Bosh, Love, and "Kareem" on his team. If he isn't a great rebounder, why did he, as a PG, just outrebound "Kareem"? :lol

Jordan's career high in rebounds in the PO is 7.9; LeBron's is 11.3. LeBron's second worst was on par with MJ's best. Their TRB % is consistent with the raw numbers, so pace (which we apply to one Chicago Bull) does not explain it.

This is an example of how Jordan has to be the best at everything. LeBron clearly is the superior rebounder but even that obvious fact that can't be conceded. :oldlol:



When did LeBron play PF? :confusedshrug: He has been a SF his entire career until this year when he played PG.

https://i.postimg.cc/bw9Kysfk/222222.png

https://i.postimg.cc/8CYRvQ2w/Screenshot2.png

[3ball]

LeBron leads his team in rebounding in the playoffs nearly every year, including when he has "monster big men" like Bosh, Love, and "Kareem" on his team. If he isn't a great rebounder, why did he, as a PG, just outrebound "Kareem"? :lol

Jordan's career high in rebounds in the PO is 7.9; LeBron's is 11.3. LeBron's second worst was on par with MJ's best. Their TRB % is consistent with the raw numbers, so pace (which we apply to one Chicago Bull) does not explain it.

This is an example of how Jordan has to be the best at everything. LeBron clearly is the superior rebounder but even that obvious fact that can't be conceded. :oldlol:



When did LeBron play PF? :confusedshrug: He has been a SF his entire career until this year when he played PG.

It isn't good for a SG to get 10 rebounds and take boards away from bigs

So rebounds is an irrelevant discussion

However, we know that MJ was the better offensive rebounder since anyone should go after those

[HoopsNY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF3DeRybsyQ&index=3754&list=LLpkYPE8zm-5ywi3uZNdWDjg

The fact that you think MJ is on LeBron's level as a rim protector is laughable. MJ was simply too small.

And yes, if asked too LeBron could guard 1-4 all at a high level, he has done it before. MJ couldn't do that.

These are also examples of LeBron's elite help defense...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=tj-5oAaw10g&feature=emb_title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=8lsdKAtlXGg&feature=emb_title

LeBron has the ability to switch on multiple players, including bigs and smalls, he provides some rim protection, he is the greatest transition defender ever, elite help defender in his defensive prime. Sorry, he is simply more impactful defensively than Jordan.

And I am not in the minority on this...

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1454891

"The greatest transition defender, elite help defender in his defensive prime."

There's no way to qualify this.

I love the idea that there is even a thing as "greatest transition defender" ever. How do you determine this exactly? Is it the chase down blocks/trailing blocks like the first video you posted?

If so, then MJ has a ton of those, too. What do you think, LeBron invented the chase down block? This is laughable. People think because they have mass media and social media today to popularize highlight reels that it somehow makes today's athletes the inventors of just about everything.

I remember telling a younger person that the Eurostep has been around for a long time and even MJ did it. The look on his face was beyond perplexing.

If the first video is indicative of rim protection, then go watch Jordan do the exact same thing to better quality big men, then come back and tell me that he can't do any rim protection because he was "too small" (completely forgetting that he's the greatest athlete the modern era has seen).

I also think it's erroneous to say he's the "impactful defender" (whatever that means). Consider this, who would be the more impactful defender against:

Westbrook/Harden
Kawhi/Parker/Manu
Klay/Steph
DeRozan/Lowry
Lillard/McCollum
Butler/Herro

If the retort is, "well LeBron is better suited to defend the likes of Barkley, Malone, Kemp, McDaniel, Dantley, etc", then I agree. In the end, it's a wash. And none of this proves anything about "impact" except what really did happen across the board.

"Impactful defender" is a catchy way of saying, "I want to redefine how defense is rated, ranked, and understood, but I don't actually know what that even means or how to do it."

[MadDog]

Chasedown blocks don't make you a more "impactful" defender. Stop it :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

LeBron leads his team in rebounding in the playoffs nearly every year, including when he has "monster big men" like Bosh, Love, and "Kareem" on his team. If he isn't a great rebounder, why did he, as a PG, just outrebound "Kareem"? :lol

Jordan's career high in rebounds in the PO is 7.9; LeBron's is 11.3. LeBron's second worst was on par with MJ's best. Their TRB % is consistent with the raw numbers, so pace (which we apply to one Chicago Bull) does not explain it.

This is an example of how Jordan has to be the best at everything. LeBron clearly is the superior rebounder but even that obvious fact that can't be conceded. :oldlol:

When did LeBron play PF? :confusedshrug: He has been a SF his entire career until this year when he played PG.

Way to go Roundball. By now you're like 0/100 in actually responding to what I said. 1987_Lakers mentioned rim protection, as if to say LeBron is some elite defensive stopper at the rim, which includes both defensive rebounds and blocks.

I don't believe this, as evidenced by LeBron's career. MJ spent his career at the top of the arc with elite rebounders down low. The game was played differently back then. But if we put MJ in his peak exclusively at SF or matched him up with smaller PFs, you don't think MJ grabs 8-9 rebounds? This is a man with a 46-48" vertical here.

MJ averaged 8.0 rebounds in the '88-89 season. Put him at the forward position more often and what, he'll average fewer rebounds per game? What kind of logic is this?

MJ's peak in blocks were 1.5 and 1.6 blocks per game. LeBron never had a season with more than 1.1 blocks. So let me guess, put MJ down low more and he averages less blocks? I just don't get you people.

I think you guys are forgetting that forwards spend more time down low than guards do.

[HoopsNY]

Chasedown blocks don't make you a more "impactful" defender. Stop it :oldlol:

Unbelievable really. MJ haters have no way of qualifying who the better transition defender was. I watched MJ for nearly his entire career. He was the better transition defender, though not by much. LeBron is up there as well.

But their entire premise is more than likely based on the whole "chase down block" hype that social media has bolstered in the last ten years. Nothing about having the offensive player switch shots, swatting the ball out of bounds before even attempting the block, challenging the shot and having them miss the field goal, or even catching up to the player and having them switch gears. It's all about the "chase down block."

[Pipes2.0]

1-9

[HoopsNY]

I said MJ was more consistent, LeBron at his defensive peak was better due to his versatility. LeBron guarded guys like MVP Rose, Tony Parker, Kawhi, Murray, and he has guarded big men like Pau, Horford etc all at a high level while Divac torched MJ in the Finals and LeBron provides rim protection MJ could only dream of. He is simply more versatile, making him a more impactful defender. I can only imagine how effective LeBron would be as a 90's defender with hand checking.

This reminds me of a conversation with Chris Carter and Nick Wright where Wright said the same thing. If LeBron was in the 90s, he'd be hand checking too. This is true, and Carter responded appropriately. MJ wasn't a great defender because of hand checking. He was a great defender because he was a great defender.

It reminds me of watching the 1994 NBA finals with the Knicks and Rockets. Matt Guokas and Marv Albert were discussing how David Stern wanted to enact rule changes to limit or otherwise eliminate hand checking due to players like Derek Harper.

Harper was a great defender in part because he was allowed to hand check and keep players in front of him. MJ was great defensively without the need to do that.

[SATAN]

1) Lebron was a candidate for DPOY and MVP in 2013, just like 88-98' MJ... so 88-98' MJ = 2013 Lebron or better

2) James Harden averaged 35 ppg, so if he was the DPOY, that would equal 88-98' MJ, who was a scoring champ and dpoy candidate that entire time

You're an idiot.

Also, 1/9.