Can Spurs replace Duncan with Dirk and get same results?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Can spurs replace 1999-2008 Duncan with 2002-2011 Dirk and get same results?

1999 Duncan with 2002 Dirk - All Dirk has to do is out play Allan Houston in finals. Dirk thrived with a defensive anchor next to him (chandler) and now he gets a massive superstar upgrade in Drob. Should be easy chip here.

2000 Duncan with 2003 Dirk - Both get hurt in playoffs

2001/2002 Duncan with 2004/05 Dirk - Just get your ass kicked by lakers, that shouldn't be too hard

2003 Duncan with 2006 Dirk - We saw Dirk eliminate Duncan/Manu/Parker on their home court despite Jason terry suspended a game. Beating the dysfunctional (Kobe/Shaq/Phil drama) and injured (no rick fox) Lakers shouldn't be a problem. Dirk in finals runs into a beta scorer Jason Kidd instead of two alphas Wade/Shaq.

2004 Duncan with 2007 Dirk - Get eliminated in 2nd round isn't that hard to do. Dirk also had a better regular season.

2005 Duncan with 2008 Dirk - This is the year Manu went off with a 9 BPM and led all players in VORP. You face zero top 40 all time greats and have two hall of famers Manu/Parker, that should be an easy ring for Dirk as he wouldn't struggle vs Rasheed like Duncan did.

2006 Duncan with 2009 Dirk - get eliminated in 2nd round isn't that hard to do.

2007 Duncan with 2010 Dirk - Suspension suns is the toughest challenge in west. Dirk beat LeBron with wade, so I'm sure he can handle LeBron with Gibson LOL

2008 Duncan with 2011 Dirk - Spurs get a massive upgrade here. Duncan played terrible in playoffs and eliminated 1-4 to Kobe/Pau. We saw what 2011 Dirk did to Kobe/Pau, I seriously doubt he gets eliminated 1-4 so easily like Duncan did.

And Duncan doesn't really do shit else the rest of his career besides choke a 2013 finals away and ride Kawhi's coetails in 2014. Dirk would thrive perfectly with a defensive wing anchor like kawhi, you can replace 2014 Duncan with 2014 Dirk and get the same results.

[Ben Simmons]

Spurs were a defensive team so of course not.

And we've seen how poor Kawhi's defense is without an elite defensive anchor

[Horatio33]

This a Chernobyl sized meltdown.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Spurs were a defensive team so of course not.

And we've seen how poor Kawhi's defense is without an elite defensive anchor

He's next to Robinson/kawhi for 3 rings. 2005 Duncan wasn't playing great defense in playoffs. 2007 Duncan faced a terrible cavs offense in finals.

[SouBeachTalents]

Duncan >>> Kawhi

[tpols]

Yes. People underrate Duncan's help. David Robinson, Manu, Parker, Kawhi, Pop & the system...

[BigKobeFan]

Duncan is better than dirk, who shat on bran in 2011

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan >>> Kawhi

2014 - Washed up Dirk and 0 time all star takes spurs to 7

2014 - Prime LeBron and two hall of famers lose to spurs in 5

Kawhi owns LeBron's soul.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope they wouldn’t have won in 99 and 03.

[Norcaliblunt]

Lol. No.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Nope they wouldn’t have won in 99 and 03.

06 Dirk puts up similar advanced numbers to 2003 Duncan but difference is Dirk faced Wade/Shaq and Duncan faced Kidd/Kenyon.

When Dirk had a defensive anchor on his team like Diop dampier in 2006 he went to finals. 2011 defensive anchor Tyson Chandler and won title. Imagine giving Dirk a defensive anchor like David Robinson? And he's facing 8th seed Allan Houston Knicks in finals hahhaha

The only time Duncan was able to beat Dirk was when Dirk had a center like Raef Lefrenz hahhaah and even then Dirk had them at #1 SRS and was injured in playoffs. 2006 Dirk with 1 time all-star Josh Howard and eliminated Duncan on his home court and Duncan had prime Manu/Parker with him.

[Micku]

06 Dirk puts up similar advanced numbers to 2003 Duncan but difference is Dirk faced Wade/Shaq and Duncan faced Kidd/Kenyon.

When Dirk had a defensive anchor on his team like Diop dampier in 2006 he went to finals. 2011 defensive anchor Tyson Chandler and won title. Imagine giving Dirk a defensive anchor like David Robinson? And he's facing 8th seed Allan Houston Knicks in finals hahhaha

The only time Duncan was able to beat Dirk was when Dirk had a center like Raef Lefrenz hahhaah and even then Dirk had them at #1 SRS and was injured in playoffs. 2006 Dirk with 1 time all-star Josh Howard and eliminated Duncan on his home court and Duncan had prime Manu/Parker with him.

I feel like this is the biggest mistake. Dirk was never the defender, rebounder or the passer that Duncan was. You're going to run into some different problems with that. Like containing Shaq in the late 90s early 00s? You had Duncan and Robinson to do it. You are missing a lot of defense (defending the pick and roll and locking down the paint) and key rebounds. The Spurs would look different. Like 1999, the Spurs had to go through the Lakers and Portland. I'm too sure if they would've won. If they would've, they probably wouldn't have won as easily.

[SouBeachTalents]

Duncan won 4 titles before Kawhi was even in college, let's see how many Kawhi wins without Duncan. Losing badly 4-1 right now

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan won 4 titles before Kawhi was even in college, let's see how many Kawhi wins without Duncan. Losing badly 4-1 right now

Kawhi only has 1 less finals MVP and Duncan didn't even deserve it in 2005.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I feel like this is the biggest mistake. Dirk was never the defender, rebounder or the passer that Duncan was. You're going to run into some different problems with that. Like containing Shaq in the late 90s early 00s? You had Duncan and Robinson to do it. You are missing a lot of defense (defending the pick and roll and locking down the paint) and key rebounds. The Spurs would look different. Like 1999, the Spurs had to go through the Lakers and Portland. I'm too sure if they would've won. If they would've, they probably wouldn't have won as easily.

Dirk has great defenders like Robinson Manu,, Bowen, Kawhi with him, so they would cover up his weaknesses. Dirk also has a career rebounding average of 10 a game. I see a massive offensive improvement with Dirk and still a very good defense team.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kawhi only has 1 less finals MVP and Duncan didn't even deserve it in 2005.
Lol, Manu has a strong argument, but I bet Duncan would win the majority of polls on who was the rightful FMVP in '05. Besides, he didn't get one in '07 despite clearly being the Spurs best player the entire season and playoffs. Kawhi's first FMVP is literally one of the weakest in league history, he was a role player who won a la Cedric Maxwell & Iggy

[Lebron23]

No. Those Spurs team were good because Duncan was a great defender.

[Roundball_Rock]

How often does a team win more with an inferior player? The only ways that would be possible are if the other player was more durable, extended the window via much better longevity, was a better fit for the team, etc. None of these apply here.

The real question is if you put Duncan on Dallas does he win a chip(s) with Nash and Finley?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lol, Manu has a strong argument, but I bet Duncan would win the majority of polls on who was the rightful FMVP in '05. Besides, he didn't get one in '07 despite clearly being the Spurs best player the entire season and playoffs. Kawhi's first FMVP is literally one of the weakest in league history, he was a role player who won a la Cedric Maxwell & Iggy

Manu led playoffs in VORP, he doubled Duncan in BPM for playoffs, destroyed him in closeout games and finals.

2007 Duncan shot terrible in finals but parker/Manu combined to equal Jordan numbers. So Duncan was playing like Pippen.

2013/2014 - kawhi was spurs best player during both finals runs. When parker/Duncan don't get kawhi involved, they lose in game 7 to heat or get taken to game 7 by mavs. When they gave kawhi the ball, spurs beat heat 4-1. Spurs also won a total of 5 playoff games in 3 years leading up to drafting kawhi (2009-2011). All the evidence points to kawhi carrying washed up Duncan/Manu or guy who thinks he's better then he is Tony Parker.

[Roundball_Rock]

Duncan is consensus top 10 all-time. Where are Parker, Manu?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

How often does a team win more with an inferior player? The only ways that would be possible are if the other player was more durable, extended the window via much better longevity, was a better fit for the team, etc. None of these apply here.

The real question is if you put Duncan on Dallas does he win a chip(s) with Nash and Finley?

Nash wouldn't fit with Duncan's postups. Maybe Dirk is the superior player is what I'm getting at. Dirk's best two playoff runs in 06/2011 are better then Duncan's best two playoff runs. Dirk had a lot worst teammates. I see people make this same claim for KG replacing Duncan but I think Dirk's a way better playoff performer then KG.

[MadDog]

No way Dirk is replacing Duncan who anchored the Spurs defensively. You get better scoring with Dirk although lose too much on defense as an effect. From 2003-2007, the Spurs averaged a #1 DRTG and when they made the finals in 2013/2014, they ranked Top 3 (Duncan was ~1 in DRTG/DBPM).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan is consensus top 10 all-time. Where are Parker, Manu?

We have never seen them without Duncan though. But Duncan hasn't done much without them either, besides that 1999 ring with drob.

Manu did win Olympic gold without Duncan.

[Axe]

This is like 3ball dismissing all of the efforts that pippen made for the bulls.

[Roundball_Rock]

We have never seen them without Duncan though. But Duncan hasn't done much without them either, besides that 1999 ring with drob.

Manu did win Olympic gold without Duncan.

Neither made all-NBA first team in their careers. Ginobili didn't even make a second team. Why are we comparing them to TD?

[rmt]

Neither made all-NBA first team in their careers. Ginobili didn't even make a second team. Why are we comparing them to TD?

Because in his attempt to build up Kawhi, he somehow thinks he must tear down Duncan.

[TheCorporation]

Duncan is top 7, Kawhi is top 37

Not close :lol

NEXT

[Roundball_Rock]

Because in his attempt to build up Kawhi, he somehow thinks he must tear down Duncan.

Yup. It is weird. They never overlapped as stars. No one gives Duncan all the credit, or Kawhi. It is understood they had several HOF players but not a clear cut #1, #2, etc. Kawhi's legacy is more tied to his chip in Toronto than his chip in San Antonio. Finally, he builds up Manu for some reason. Manu being elevated, TD being downgraded doesn't change anything for Kawhi. Both of them were on the 14' team.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nash wouldn't fit with Duncan's postups. Maybe Dirk is the superior player is what I'm getting at. Dirk's best two playoff runs in 06/2011 are better then Duncan's best two playoff runs. Dirk had a lot worst teammates. I see people make this same claim for KG replacing Duncan but I think Dirk's a way better playoff performer then KG.
Nah, '03 Duncan > any Dirk playoff run. > Kawhi's '19 run too

[rmt]

We have never seen them without Duncan though. But Duncan hasn't done much without them either, besides that 1999 ring with drob.

Manu did win Olympic gold without Duncan.

Duncan has a NBA championship, FMVP, 3 All Star, 1 All Star Game MVP, 4 All-NBA 1st team, 3 All-Defensive 1st team, 1 All-Defensive 2nd team, NBA Rookie of the Year, All Rookie First Team - all done without Parker.

ADD a NBA MVP, another All-Star, another All-NBA 1st team and another All-Defensive 1st team to the above - all done without Manu.

Either list of awards/honors (pre-Parker and Manu) is much more than what Parker and Manu achieved COMBINED in their ENTIRE careers.

[dankok8]

I think Duncan is underrated offensively at this point. He was not a scorer like Dirk but his passing, setting screens, and offensive rebounding made him just as impactful on offense IMO.. hard to prove but just a gut feeling. And then comes the defense where there is nothing much to say. Overall Duncan is a much better player than Dirk so the short answer is no.

[Phoenix]

We have never seen them without Duncan though. But Duncan hasn't done much without them either, besides that 1999 ring with drob.

Manu did win Olympic gold without Duncan.

Without Manu or Tony? Between 97 and 01:

Rookie of the year
Championship
Finals MVP
4x all-nba first team
3x all-defense first team
1x all- defense second team
4x all star starter
four top 5 MVP finishes( 2nd in 01)
22/12/3/2 51%

Dude had like a top 25 careers worth of achievements in 4 seasons. But sure, 'not much'.

[Stanley Kobrick]

hbk_kwit :(

[SouBeachTalents]

Without Manu or Tony? Between 97 and 01:

Rookie of the year
Championship
Finals MVP
4x all-nba first team
3x all-defense first team
1x all- defense second team
4x all star starter
four top 5 MVP finishes( 2nd in 01)
22/12/3/2 51%

Dude had like a top 25 careers worth of achievements in 4 seasons. But sure, 'not much'.
That's pretty much Kawhi's entire career :biggums:

[rmt]

Little known MJ opinion on Duncan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mb2Exog6Y (7:45)

while TD did not have a great opinion of MJ.

Watching MJ still gives me chills (even though I didn't like him either) - GOAT no doubt.

[tpols]

Little known MJ opinion on Duncan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mb2Exog6Y (7:45)

while TD did not have a great opinion of MJ.

Watching MJ still gives me chills (even though I didn't like him either) - GOAT no doubt.

Tim Duncan was a swimmer his whole childhood. He didn't even pick up a basketball until his late teens.

That shows how GOAT his intuition, intelligence, and general coordination is.

[DMAVS41]

I think Duncan is underrated offensively at this point. He was not a scorer like Dirk but his passing, setting screens, and offensive rebounding made him just as impactful on offense IMO.. hard to prove but just a gut feeling. And then comes the defense where there is nothing much to say. Overall Duncan is a much better player than Dirk so the short answer is no.

He was definitely not as impactful on offense, but I agree that he gets under-rated offensively for how good he was.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Without Manu or Tony? Between 97 and 01:

Rookie of the year
Championship
Finals MVP
4x all-nba first team
3x all-defense first team
1x all- defense second team
4x all star starter
four top 5 MVP finishes( 2nd in 01)
22/12/3/2 51%

Dude had like a top 25 careers worth of achievements in 4 seasons. But sure, 'not much'.

1 ring against 8th seed Allan Houston. I'm sure parker/Manu by themselves are easily 55 win team every year, they were the best backcourt of all time outside of maybe Curry/Klay.

[DMAVS41]

To answer the question asked...

Of course not. Those teams were built for Duncan, not a player like Dirk...and Duncan was better than Dirk.

However, Dirk would have done way better under Pop and with Duncan's help than he did on the Mavs. Dirk/Parker/Manu/Pop with a bit different of a supporting cast is winning more than 1 title in Dirk's prime through 14. Probably win 3...

[Roundball_Rock]

He was definitely not as impactful on offense, but I agree that he gets under-rated offensively for how good he was.

Plus, ISH has jumped the shark on scoring. If you aren't scoring 30 you are Ben Wallace at scoring according to ISH. :oldlol: Duncan was top 10 in scoring 5x, peaking at 5th.


1 ring against 8th seed Allan Houston. I'm sure parker/Manu by themselves are easily 55 win team every year, they were the best backcourt of all time outside of maybe Curry/Klay.

The same Knicks team that comfortably beat the much bally hooed Reggie "Winning Time" Miller Pacers--with Ewing missing most of the series too. Allan Houston? He crushed prime Miller in the series.


Of course not. Those teams were built for Duncan, not a player like Dirk...and Duncan was better than Dirk.

However, Dirk would have done way better under Pop and with Duncan's help than he did on the Mavs. Dirk/Parker/Manu/Pop with a bit different of a supporting cast is winning more than 1 title in Dirk's prime through 14. Probably win 3...

Agreed.

[tpols]

To answer the question asked...

Of course not. Those teams were built for Duncan, not a player like Dirk...and Duncan was better than Dirk.

However, Dirk would have done way better under Pop and with Duncan's help than he did on the Mavs. Dirk/Parker/Manu/Pop with a bit different of a supporting cast is winning more than 1 title in Dirk's prime through 14. Probably win 3...

Dirk was screwed out of a ring in 2006.

Won the ultimate Cinderella title in league history 5 years later.

There's just no way in hell he doesn't dominate with the help Dunca had and I am a huge fan of Tim Duncan. He's one of the greatest player of all time.

[tanibanana]

Same results?? Definitely NOT.
But Spurs still going to win some...

[Phoenix]

1 ring against 8th seed Allan Houston. I'm sure parker/Manu by themselves are easily 55 win team every year, they were the best backcourt of all time outside of maybe Curry/Klay.

Only reason Kawhi won last year was KD was out and Klay got injured. Dubs still took them to 6, so those two major losses quite clearly made the difference. Little forgotten fact about last years run with everyone gushing over Kawhi was KD before the achilles tear:

32/5/5 66%TS. And those numbers include the game he got injured. KD playing at that level alone would have neutralized Kahwi.

Even if you want to remove the '8th seed' ring, the rest of TDs individual accolades in his first 4 years match what's taken Kawhi a decade to achieve. So point remains.... Duncan> Kahwi. Thanks for playing.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was screwed out of a ring in 2006.

Won the ultimate Cinderella title in league history 5 years later.

There's just no way in hell he doesn't dominate with the help Dunca had and I am a huge fan of Tim Duncan. He's one of the greatest player of all time.

Yea, he would dominate. I think he wins 3 rings from 03 through 14 is likely and I think that is dominating...maybe they make 5 finals or something. That is a pretty amazing run.

I guess you could argue they go on a big run from like 06 through 12 when Dirk as a player is probably under-rated here, but they also dealt with some Manu injuries at times as well. All depends on what kind of team they are surrounding Dirk/Manu/Parker with.

[Horatio33]

I think Duncan is underrated offensively at this point. He was not a scorer like Dirk but his passing, setting screens, and offensive rebounding made him just as impactful on offense IMO.. hard to prove but just a gut feeling. And then comes the defense where there is nothing much to say. Overall Duncan is a much better player than Dirk so the short answer is no.
Look at some of Duncan's numbers in the 2003 playoffs. He had a run where he was averaging 30 and 15 for a few games, closed out the 3 peat Shaq and Kobe Lakers in 2001 he had a huge series eclipsing Shaq, its just Duncan didn't have the second star to help him. Shaq and Kobe were the best and third best players in the league (Duncan second).

[dankok8]

He was definitely not as impactful on offense, but I agree that he gets under-rated offensively for how good he was.

Why do you say definitely not? Duncan was a much better passer and offensive rebounder and also set great screens. Dirk obviously scored better and did well for spacing but it's not a slam dunk to me that Dirk was better offensively.

[DMAVS41]

Why do you say definitely not? Duncan was a much better passer and offensive rebounder and also set great screens. Dirk obviously scored better and did well for spacing but it's not a slam dunk to me that Dirk was better offensively.

Because Dirk's individual offense impact trumped Duncan's. Dirk is on the list of best offensive players ever. Duncan is not. Duncan was great, but he just didn't have the impact offensively Dirk did.

When you say "set great screens"...he did, but Dirk's impact on the screen and repost or screen and pop...is all-time great. Dragging a big out like 25 ft, doubled off the ball often, forcing a mismatch or favorable switch...etc.

Dirk made the offense so much easier on his teammates. Duncan no doubt did in part as well, but not to the same extent. Dirk's shooting and skillset is simply more valuable than Duncan's offensively.

Just go look at the individual numbers and team numbers. Dirk will have him beat across the board in things like ortg, scoring efficiency, and other advanced metrics...and his teams performed better offensively as well. From 01 through 11...you are talking elite offenses...some that aren't even appreciated enough in terms of the league rankings. When Duncan was the main cog of the offense on the Spurs, they had some good offenses, but not elite offenses like the Mavs. In fact, it wasn't until Duncan took a step back did the Spurs start posting better offenses.