Jordan won 6 rings in a weak 22-27 team league, half were expansion.

[Gus Hemmingway]

22 teams in the league when MJ was drafted, 27 teams when MJ retired

Half were brand new expansion teams (full of D-Leaguers, bench warmers, and Euro scrubs) so there was only really 12-14 legit teams in MJs era


What do you value more, Jordan only making 6 Finals and 6 rings in a weak 14 team league or LeBron's 10 Finals and 4 rings in a legit 30 team era?

[Shooter]

6 Finals is borderline top 10. Kobe got to 7.

Magic, Kareem, Russsell, LeBron all made 9 or more.

[Gus Hemmingway]

3ball?

[light]

Charles Barkley, 1994:


"The league has deteriorated. You have bad general managers drafting bad players. It's like the NFL. The older players are moving on, and the younger ones aren't there yet. You look at some of the guys starting in this league these days and it makes you shake your head."

Dennis Rodman, 1997:


"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."

Larry Bird, 1996:


"I think the expansion teams have really hurt the league, I think it's depleted the talent in our league."

Bob Costas, 1996:


"Dr. J had Larry and Magic to test himself against, there's nothing comparable to that quality of competition at the top for these Chicago Bulls. So it seems a little awkward to talk about the Bulls as one of the best teams of all time."

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

1983 Sixers - 3 hall of famers - Malone, Irving, Cheeks
1984 Celtics - 4 hall of famers - Bird, Parrish, McHale, Johnson
1985 Lakers - 5 hall of famers - Magic, Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Wilkes
1989 Pistons - 4 hall of famers - Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Dantley

1996 Sonics - 1 hall of famer - Payton
1993 Knicks - 1 hall of famer - Ewing
1992 Blazers - 1 hall of famer - Drexler
1993 Suns - 1 hall of famer - Barkley
1996 Magic - 1 hall of famer - Shaq

2007 Spurs - 3 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
2010 Celtics - 3 hall of famers - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
2014 Spurs - 4 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Leonard
2016 Warriors - 4 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala
2017 Warriors - 5 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala, Durant

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan won in the only era where top 3 players in the league won league or finals mvp and also the USA won only gold medals.

[kawhileonard2]

Charles Barkley, 1994:


"The league has deteriorated. You have bad general managers drafting bad players. It's like the NFL. The older players are moving on, and the younger ones aren't there yet. You look at some of the guys starting in this league these days and it makes you shake your head."

Dennis Rodman, 1997:


"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."

Larry Bird, 1996:


"I think the expansion teams have really hurt the league, I think it's depleted the talent in our league."

Bob Costas, 1996:


"Dr. J had Larry and Magic to test himself against, there's nothing comparable to that quality of competition at the top for these Chicago Bulls. So it seems a little awkward to talk about the Bulls as one of the best teams of all time."

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

1983 Sixers - 3 hall of famers - Malone, Irving, Cheeks
1984 Celtics - 4 hall of famers - Bird, Parrish, McHale, Johnson
1985 Lakers - 5 hall of famers - Magic, Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Wilkes
1989 Pistons - 4 hall of famers - Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Dantley

1996 Sonics - 1 hall of famer - Payton
1993 Knicks - 1 hall of famer - Ewing
1992 Blazers - 1 hall of famer - Drexler
1993 Suns - 1 hall of famer - Barkley
1996 Magic - 1 hall of famer - Shaq

2007 Spurs - 3 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
2010 Celtics - 3 hall of famers - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
2014 Spurs - 4 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Leonard
2016 Warriors - 4 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala
2017 Warriors - 5 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala, Durant

1991 had Magic, Worthy and Divac
2014 Spurs were old as dirt and still beat the shit out of Lebron.

[And1AllDay]

Charles Barkley, 1994:


"The league has deteriorated. You have bad general managers drafting bad players. It's like the NFL. The older players are moving on, and the younger ones aren't there yet. You look at some of the guys starting in this league these days and it makes you shake your head."

Dennis Rodman, 1997:


"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."

Larry Bird, 1996:


"I think the expansion teams have really hurt the league, I think it's depleted the talent in our league."

Bob Costas, 1996:


"Dr. J had Larry and Magic to test himself against, there's nothing comparable to that quality of competition at the top for these Chicago Bulls. So it seems a little awkward to talk about the Bulls as one of the best teams of all time."

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

1983 Sixers - 3 hall of famers - Malone, Irving, Cheeks
1984 Celtics - 4 hall of famers - Bird, Parrish, McHale, Johnson
1985 Lakers - 5 hall of famers - Magic, Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Wilkes
1989 Pistons - 4 hall of famers - Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Dantley

1996 Sonics - 1 hall of famer - Payton
1993 Knicks - 1 hall of famer - Ewing
1992 Blazers - 1 hall of famer - Drexler
1993 Suns - 1 hall of famer - Barkley
1996 Magic - 1 hall of famer - Shaq

2007 Spurs - 3 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
2010 Celtics - 3 hall of famers - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
2014 Spurs - 4 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Leonard
2016 Warriors - 4 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala
2017 Warriors - 5 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala, Durant

issa wrap bois

[kawhileonard2]

1. Winning 2 bronze medals
2. Losing with HCA 3x in a row.
3. Being down ever year of his career at least 3-2
4. Being down with HCA at least 3-2 for 5 years in a row.
5. Losing 6 finals as the only MVP player in history to do that.
6. Being swept 4-0 twice in the finals.
7. Stacking the deck 3 times with superteams and still losing.
8. Played with 3 different guys who won titles as the man and still lost. Ben Wallace (only allstar on 2004 Squad), Shaq (3x Finals MVP, 1x league mvp), Wade (Historic Finals MVP)

[Stanley Kobrick]

1. Winning 2 bronze medals
2. Losing with HCA 3x in a row.
3. Being down ever year of his career at least 3-2
4. Being down with HCA at least 3-2 for 5 years in a row.
5. Losing 6 finals as the only MVP player in history to do that.
6. Being swept 4-0 twice in the finals.
7. Stacking the deck 3 times with superteams and still losing.
8. Played with 3 different guys who won titles as the man and still lost. Ben Wallace (only allstar on 2004 Squad), Shaq (3x Finals MVP, 1x league mvp), Wade (Historic Finals MVP)http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756
https://i.postimg.cc/Qt38Wcns/erhgehgerger.png (https://postimg.cc/p9sbw5H1)

:biggums::biggums:

[kawhileonard2]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756
https://i.postimg.cc/Qt38Wcns/erhgehgerger.png (https://postimg.cc/p9sbw5H1)

:biggums::biggums:

Photoshop is a good tool these days. Can make stuff up on the go. Let's focus on what was said.

[1987_Lakers]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756
https://i.postimg.cc/Qt38Wcns/erhgehgerger.png (https://postimg.cc/p9sbw5H1)

:biggums::biggums:

:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Photoshop is a good tool these days. Can make stuff up on the go. Let's focus on what was said.

photoshop my ass.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756

:roll:

[LAmbruh]

photoshop my ass.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756

:roll:

Yikes :roll:

[kawhileonard2]

photoshop my ass.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756

:roll:

That's Photoshop it was made in C#.

Let's focus on the points made. Forget the other stuff.

[Stanley Kobrick]

photoshop my ass.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756

:roll:
welfarefan and coach having a battle to see who can make the most accounts :ohwell:

[Axe]

That's Photoshop it was made in C#.

Let's focus on the points made. Forget the other stuff.
Looks like everyone here knows you have a dup

[kawhileonard2]

Looks like everyone here knows you have a dup

No idea. Why was that savant eliminated? Was it because of the truth he was telling?

[HoopsNY]

The irony of this weak argument is that supposedly, if there wasn't expansion, then every team would have an additional 1-2 starters/stars/all-stars....except Chicago.

You can't take these LeBron stans seriously. The attitude is amazing that everyone gets the benefit of the doubt, except for MJ. And I love the automatic claim that Draymond and Iguodala are HOF'ers. Not to mention, some of these players were either much older when they did play LeBron in the finals, or they were too young to be considered elite (Harden 2012, Kawhi 2013).

In addition, the attitude is that Miami, for example, didn't have HOF'ers (LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Allen) or the Lakers (LeBron, AD, Rondo, Howard). So the argument works when it does and doesn't work when it doesn't. The entire HOF argument is a sham.

[And1AllDay]

photoshop my ass.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756

:roll:


Yiiiikes :roll:

[SATAN]

The irony of this weak argument is that supposedly, if there wasn't expansion, then every team would have an additional 1-2 starters/stars/all-stars....except Chicago.

You can't take these LeBron stans seriously. The attitude is amazing that everyone gets the benefit of the doubt, except for MJ. And I love the automatic claim that Draymond and Iguodala are HOF'ers. Not to mention, some of these players were either much older when they did play LeBron in the finals, or they were too young to be considered elite (Harden 2012, Kawhi 2013).

In addition, the attitude is that Miami, for example, didn't have HOF'ers (LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Allen) or the Lakers (LeBron, AD, Rondo, Howard). So the argument works when it does and doesn't work when it doesn't. The entire HOF argument is a sham.

meltdown

[SouBeachTalents]

That's Photoshop it was made in C#.

Let's focus on the points made. Forget the other stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7x1J36sQIA&ab_channel=reactionflv

[HoopsNY]

meltdown

Have you ever responded to any of my counterclaims meaningfully? It's the same rhetoric with you Bran stans. Rinse, repeat, recycle. Little to no insight one liners.

[SATAN]

Have you ever responded to any of my counterclaims meaningfully? It's the same rhetoric with you Bran stans. Rinse, repeat, recycle. Little to no insight one liners.

There's really not much point when it comes to this kind of stuff. MJ stans have put him upon such a high pedestal where anything that goes against MJ in any way is simply glossed over or denied. He's a god to some people. It's honestly some of the stupidest shit I've ever seen. Not to mention many MJ stans don't know shit about basketball anyway. I like both players but prefer LeBron's style and career arch. Not really bothered if you disagree but I got sick of people constantly shitting on him over the years. Some of the things you said reminded me of that Spiderman pointing at Spiderman meme.

i think what MJ stans fail to understand is the LeBron guys who run rampart on this site are a natural effect of all the shit MJ stans have talked over the years.

Btw, I've never heard anyone claim Iggy and Green are HOF :biggums:

[HoopsNY]

There's really not much point when it comes to this kind of stuff. MJ stans have put him upon such a high pedestal where anything that goes against MJ in any way is simply glossed over or denied. He's a god to some people. It's honestly some of the stupidest shit I've ever seen. Not to mention many MJ stans don't know shit about basketball anyway. I like both players but prefer LeBron's style and career arch. Not really bothered if you disagree but I got sick of people constantly shitting on him over the years. Some of the things you said reminded me of that Spiderman pointing at Spiderman meme.

i think what MJ stans fail to understand is the LeBron guys who run rampart on this site are a natural effect of all the shit MJ stans have talked over the years.

Btw, I've never heard anyone claim Iggy and Green are HOF :biggums:

That's fair. Others say the same. But clearly I'm not on some "MJ is the GOAT, LeBron sucks, Pippen sucks!" tirade.

[TheGoatest]

22 teams in the league when MJ was drafted, 27 teams when MJ retired

Half were brand new expansion teams (full of D-Leaguers, bench warmers, and Euro scrubs) so there was only really 12-14 legit teams in MJs era


What do you value more, Jordan only making 6 Finals and 6 rings in a weak 14 team league or LeBron's 10 Finals and 4 rings in a legit 30 team era?

10-17 is easily way more impressive than 6-15. Especially when you consider that the 10-17 doesn't have any first round exits and 6-15 has three of them, including two sweeps.

[Roundball_Rock]

Expansion had an impact, just look at rosters of top teams in 1985 and compare to 1996.

The Bulls' benefited because they were the only team with two MVP caliber players for the entire run and then they added a 3rd HOF player. No other team had two MVP caliber players (other than Orlando for two years). Houston had 3 HOF in 97', 98'--but all were past their primes (Pippen was still in his prime while Jordan wasn't but remained the best player).

In other words, the Bulls were a fluke and before the player movement era no other team could make a move to catch them.

Look at who the second best team of the 90's was: the Jazz (Rockets won chips but didn't do much for much of the decade whereas Utah contended every year). That is the "other" team that had 2 HOF players for the entire run. The only difference is Stockton wasn't a superstar, wasn't a MVP caliber player, etc. so his peak was a lot lower.

Other than the 90's and 00's, any contender would need multiple HOF. Those were outliers. In the 90's a team could contend with Reggie Miller as their best player (Klay without the defense). Can you imagine a team with Klay Thompson as their best player contending today or in the 80's?

[8Ball]

photoshop my ass.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?476328-Which-LBJ-record-is-unbreakable&p=14019756&viewfull=1#post14019756

:roll:

Lol what a low IQ dum retard :lol

[Hey Yo]

Photoshop is a good tool these days. Can make stuff up on the go. Let's focus on what was said.

Stone cold busted

:oldlol:

[Kiddlovesnets]

22-27 is fine, its the same number of teams in playoffs anyway. Russell's era was different since the playoffs were shorter, the postseason is what matters.

[Roundball_Rock]

22-27 is fine, its the same number of teams in playoffs anyway. Russell's era was different since the playoffs were shorter, the postseason is what matters.

The issue isn't the # of teams per se. The issue is the extent and pace of expansion in a short window of time. In 1988 there were 23 teams; by 1996 there were 29. Just look at rosters from before this expansion and after and it is obvious rosters got diluted. Less HOF, less all-NBA, etc. players on top teams than before. This continued until player movement reversed "re-stacked" teams.

[BigKobeFan]

You virgins need to talk about something else. Its the same shit every day.

[HoopsNY]

Expansion had an impact, just look at rosters of top teams in 1985 and compare to 1996.

The Bulls' benefited because they were the only team with two MVP caliber players for the entire run and then they added a 3rd HOF player. No other team had two MVP caliber players (other than Orlando for two years). Houston had 3 HOF in 97', 98'--but all were past their primes (Pippen was still in his prime while Jordan wasn't but remained the best player).

More deception from TheFakeBullsFan. When playing together, Pippen finished top ten in MVP voting four times. Let's take a look at year by year for their entire tenure together (minus rookie Pippen), with other top 10 vote getters of the same team, including the 90s.

1989
Malone - 3rd
Stockton - 7th

K. Johnson - 8th
Chambers - 9th

1990
Malone - 4th
Stockton - 9th

1991
Drexler - 4th
Porter - 9th

1992
Mullin - 6th
Hardaway - 8th

1993
Price - 8th
Daughtery - 10th

1995
Malone - 3rd
Stockton - 8th

Shaq - 2nd
Penny - 10th

1996
Kemp - 6th
Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd
Shaq- 9th

1997
Rice - 5th
Mason - 9th

1998
Duncan - 5th
Robinson - 7th

Payton - 3rd
Baker - 8th

If the retort is MJ was usually at the top, then that's a credit to MJ. Pippen finished top 5 alongside MJ once. :confusedshrug:

Watch TheFakeBullsFan make another essay post where he completely sidesteps the the reality of what he just said.

[dankok8]

The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength. There is a lot of result bias. For example, if the Bulls lost some of those Finals to the Blazers/Suns/Sonics, good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF. This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers. And we could and will see more players from the 90's still make it into the hall.

[HoopsNY]

The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength. There is a lot of result bias. For example, if the Bulls lost some of those Finals to the Blazers/Suns/Sonics, good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF. This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers. And we could and will see more players from the 90's still make it into the hall.

The HOF argument is silly. What matters is how well those players played at the time they were playing. A lot of the guys MJ faced on those teams were on elite teams with a ton of talent, but had unfortunate circumstances which resulted in their careers being shortened. If not for that, they would likely all be in the HOF. Yet MJ gets persecuted as if that's his fault.

Guys like Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic died. As unfortunate as those deaths were, both of those guys were shaping up to be elite players capable of doing great things. And that Nets team together with Coleman and Anderson would have been a threat for years to come.

Daughtery, Cummings, Rice, KJ, Penny, Kemp, LJ, and Harper all had shortened careers due to injuries, cocaine, or whatever. To pit the blame on MJ as if he controlled where they ended up is unfair.

Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway, especially in an era of colluding.

But even if we concede to this point, it doesn't override all of the other arguments in favor of MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength.

Look at the other thread on the 80's. As someone noted, if you didn't have 3 surefire HOF players you weren't winning then (and these teams often had a 4th or even 5th borderline HOFer). Compare those rosters to the 90's. The 94' Rockets won with Otis Thorpe as their second best player against a team whose second best player was John Starks.


good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF

Maybe KJ and Kemp but no way the other guys make it. Hornacek was a 1x all-star, Porter 2x, Williams 3x. Only Williams was all-NBA, and I believe only once 8-9 years before the 92' finals.

How important are rings? Iggy has 3, won a FMVP, team USA member, and is a 1x all-star. He has a more impressive resume in these areas than Hornacek. Other than some LeBron stans, I don't see anyone calling Iggy a HOFer.

Or look at MJ's teams. Grant, BJ, Cartwright made as many all-star teams as Hornacek and have at least 3 rings (Grant has 4). Are they HOF?


This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers

You are underselling their advantage. Look at "only" 2 HOFers. How many did the comp have? You listed the Lakers but you know Divac was a 1x all-star (10 years later) and is in the HOF for his international play. That would be akin to Kukoc making the HOF.

You looked and found only a handful of other teams with multiple HOFers. Let's look at the Bulls versus their Finals and ECF opponents.

1991 ECF: Bulls 2 vs. 3 for DET
1991 Finals: 2 vs. 3 for LAL, with the caveat above
1992 ECF: 2 vs. 0 for CLE
1992 Finals: 2 vs. 1 for POR
1993 ECF: 2 vs. 1 for NY
1993 Finals: 2 vs. 1 for PHX
1996 ECF: 3 vs. 1 for ORL
1996 Finals: 3 vs. 1 for SEA
1997 ECF: 4 vs. 1 for MIA
1997 Finals: 4 vs. 2 for UTA
1998 ECF: 3 vs. 2 for IND
1998 Finals: 3 vs. 2 for IND

Parish shouldn't count for 97' since he rode the CHI bench but Mullin wasn't a HOF player in 98' for IND either. He was their 5th best player.

Any way you slice it, the Bulls consistently have the edge after 91'...in literally none of these series after 91' does any team equal them.

Moreover, you noted in the Rodman reference that not all HOF players are equal (Rodman was in decline by the end of the run but the same can be said of Stockton, who was more like 11' Kidd in 98' than the Stockton we hear about). How many of these players were all-NBA 1st team caliber players? DET had 1, LAL had 1, CLE had 1, POR had 1, PHX had 1, NY had 1, ORL had 2, SEA had 1, MIA had 2, UTA had 2. MVP caliber (let's define that by being top 5 at some point)? DET 1, LAL 1, CLE 0, POR 1, PHX 1, NY 1, ORL 2, SEA 1, MIA 2, UTA 1. Now consider the "number" for the Bulls would be 2 in each case.

When you look at MVP level or all-NBA 1st teams the gap closes a bit but the Bulls still have an obvious edge.

One frequent response from the MJ crowd is we have to look at teams since it is not all about stars (except for LeBron's teams :oldlol: ). The answer there is 55 wins. No other team from that era could lose its best player 3 weeks before the season and contend for the #1 seed.

The Bulls went 72-10 with MJ. What do MJ fans think would happen sans MJ? 42-40? 37-45? Was MJ worth 30-35 wins? You would have to think something like that to think the team isn't stacked because any team that can win 55+ or even 50+ without its best player is a stacked/elite "cast."

[TheCorporation]

Charles Barkley, 1994:


"The league has deteriorated. You have bad general managers drafting bad players. It's like the NFL. The older players are moving on, and the younger ones aren't there yet. You look at some of the guys starting in this league these days and it makes you shake your head."

Dennis Rodman, 1997:


"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."

Larry Bird, 1996:


"I think the expansion teams have really hurt the league, I think it's depleted the talent in our league."

Bob Costas, 1996:


"Dr. J had Larry and Magic to test himself against, there's nothing comparable to that quality of competition at the top for these Chicago Bulls. So it seems a little awkward to talk about the Bulls as one of the best teams of all time."

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

1983 Sixers - 3 hall of famers - Malone, Irving, Cheeks
1984 Celtics - 4 hall of famers - Bird, Parrish, McHale, Johnson
1985 Lakers - 5 hall of famers - Magic, Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Wilkes
1989 Pistons - 4 hall of famers - Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Dantley

1996 Sonics - 1 hall of famer - Payton
1993 Knicks - 1 hall of famer - Ewing
1992 Blazers - 1 hall of famer - Drexler
1993 Suns - 1 hall of famer - Barkley
1996 Magic - 1 hall of famer - Shaq

2007 Spurs - 3 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
2010 Celtics - 3 hall of famers - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
2014 Spurs - 4 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Leonard
2016 Warriors - 4 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala
2017 Warriors - 5 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala, Durant

Wrap it up

[TheGoatest]

A 30 team league today mops the floor with a 30 team league in the 90s, because of the development of international players.
The worst teams in the league today are so much better than the worst teams in the 90s, it's not even funny.

[Hey Yo]

The HOF argument is silly. What matters is how well those players played at the time they were playing. A lot of the guys MJ faced on those teams were on elite teams with a ton of talent, but had unfortunate circumstances which resulted in their careers being shortened. If not for that, they would likely all be in the HOF. Yet MJ gets persecuted as if that's his fault.

Guys like Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic died. As unfortunate as those deaths were, both of those guys were shaping up to be elite players capable of doing great things. And that Nets team together with Coleman and Anderson would have been a threat for years to come.

Daughtery, Cummings, Rice, KJ, Penny, Kemp, LJ, and Harper all had shortened careers due to injuries, cocaine, or whatever. To pit the blame on MJ as if he controlled where they ended up is unfair.

Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway, especially in an era of colluding.

But even if we concede to this point, it doesn't override all of the other arguments in favor of MJ.
Totally agree...

Like how people always say "look what dude avg. last year, he's a superstar!!!!"

I don't give a shit what dude avg. last year for another team, I only care about what he averages this season, on said team. Base a player on how he's performing currently, not what he did last year. Last years stats can't help me win this year.

[MadDog]

Let's take a look at year by year for their entire tenure together (minus rookie Pippen), with other top 10 vote getters of the same team, including the 90s.

1989

Malone - 3rd

Stockton - 7th

K. Johnson - 8th

Chambers - 9th

1990

Malone - 4th

Stockton - 9th

1991

Drexler - 4th

Porter - 9th

1992

Mullin - 6th

Hardaway - 8th

1993

Price - 8th

Daughtery - 10th

1995

Malone - 3rd

Stockton - 8th

Shaq - 2nd

Penny - 10th

1996

Kemp - 6th

Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd

Shaq- 9th

1997

Rice - 5th

Mason - 9th

1998

Duncan - 5th

Robinson - 7th

Payton - 3rd

Baker – 8th


Results don’t lie. The 90s were stacked. Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate :applause: Same thing with Penny and Shaq. While they were also in contention for the award, Shaq was already named a Top 50 player in his 5th year!


Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway

Not only that, but the eastern conference was a shit show in LeBron’s era. Both in talent and because LeBron cowardly teamed with the best talent :oldlol: Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with

Wade (5 Seasons)
Bosh (4 Seasons)
Irving (4 Seasons)
Love (4 Seasons)
Shaq (1 Season)
AD (1 Season
Howard (1 Season)

Even if you don’t want to list Love as a HOFer, LeBron has still played with FAR MORE of them than Jordan. :confusedshrug: The argument should ALWAYS be how good the player was at their best. If LeBron fans want to use the HOFer argument, though, read and weep :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Results don’t lie. The 90s were stacked. Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate :applause: Same thing with Penny and Shaq. While they were also in contention for the award, Shaq was already named a Top 50 player in his 5th year!



Not only that, but the eastern conference was a shit show in LeBron’s era. Both in talent and because LeBron cowardly teamed with the best talent :oldlol: Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with

Wade (5 Seasons)
Bosh (4 Seasons)
Irving (4 Seasons)
Love (4 Seasons)
Shaq (1 Season)
AD (1 Season
Howard (1 Season)

Even if you don’t want to list Love as a HOFer, LeBron has still played with FAR MORE of them than Jordan. :confusedshrug: The argument should ALWAYS be how good the player was at their best. If LeBron fans want to use the HOFer argument, though, read and weep :oldlol:

I don't believe the 90s were stacked. But this incessant attempt at devaluing the competition has to stop, to the point that now supposedly, there weren't numerous teams with multiple MVP candidates/level players in the 90s.

This is why I say most of these arguments work well when they do and not so well when they don't. It's just non-sensical to always hinge your entire argument on things that generally work some of the time but not others.

[FKAri]

Not to mention MJ had a miniscule testicles.

[2ball]

90’s Ball: https://64.media.tumblr.com/27e3e826a543e12294386c56bcf54f82/tumblr_mzk8myXdDK1svt5w5o1_400.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

Totally agree...

Like how people always say "look what dude avg. last year, he's a superstar!!!!"

I don't give a shit what dude avg. last year for another team, I only care about what he averages this season, on said team. Base a player on how he's performing currently, not what he did last year. Last years stats can't help me win this year.

One way to do that is to look at all-NBA players in given years--we can't define "HOF level" in a given year. They won't do that because they know Jordan's teams have the 11-9 edge in the finals by the measure and LeBron's have a 14-18 deficit.

There are roughly the same # of people in each era who looked like they would make the HOF but didn't or won't (others in this thread--not you--want to pretend that only applies to when MJ played but magically not to when LJ did). Rajon Rondo was considered a future HOF player in the early 2010's. No one even remembers that. For injuries, we always hear about Penny, Hill, KJ, Price, etc. (Kemp got fat--that isn't an "injury") but you have Rose, Arenas, Roy, Yao, D-Will, Amare (a better version of Kemp--no tears for him), Rondo, Noah as people from this era. Griffin, Love may not make it either (resumes are similar to Kemp's, except Griffin was once a MVP candidate). They just don't have the 90's nostalgia going for them.

Some of it is shady accounting. Terry Cummings made 2 all-star teams in an 8-9 year prime. We are hearing he was going to be a HOFer. :lol

We also are seeing "MVP candidate" defined down as anyone who get MVP votes because they know what that data would show. By that logic, Rodman was a MVP candidate 4x--which explodes the entire point of their spin. :lol


Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate

Stockton was never a MVP candidate. :roll: That he was never a MVP candidate is used against him by people like Bill Simmons because he is the only top 40 all-time player to never be. He got a few 4th or 5th place votes in some years, like a lot of players do. Here is his "highest" finish:

1988-89 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[22May89] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

Magic Johnson (LAL) ..... 42.5 664.5
Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 27.5 598.8
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 5 362
Patrick Ewing (NYK) ..... 8 200
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 2 179.3
Charles Barkley (PHI) ... 0 94.3
John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 28
Kevin Johnson (PHO) ..... 0 22
Tom Chambers (PHO) ...... 0 20
Mark Price (CLE) ........ 0 18

Same with 90% the other players Chewbacca referenced. 9th place in MVP is not being a MVP candidate. :oldlol: Let's hone in on 96':


1996

Kemp - 6th

Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd

Shaq- 9th

1995-96 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[20May96] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 109 3 0 1 0 1114
David Robinson (SAN) .... 0 54 29 14 9 574
Anfernee Hardaway (ORL) . 2 21 23 19 21 360
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 1 1 9 18 20 238
Scottie Pippen (CHI) .... 0 11 18 14 17 226
Gary Payton (SEA) ....... 0 7 0 13 10 98
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 1 0 8 7 14 85
Shawn Kemp (SEA) ........ 0 3 6 7 1 73
Grant Hill (DET) ........ 0 2 5 5 9 63
Shaquille O'Neal (ORL) .. 0 2 4 7 8 63
John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 1 1 0 0 12
Charles Barkley (PHO) ... 0 0 0 2 2 8
Earvin Johnson (LAL) .... 0 0 0 1 5 8
Alonzo Mourning (MIA) ... 0 0 1 0 1 6
Dennis Rodman (CHI) ..... 0 0 0 1 1 4
Terrell Brandon (CLE) ... 0 0 0 1 0 3
Mitch Richmond (SAC) .... 0 0 0 1 0 3

Using the logic put forward here, the Bulls had 3 MVP "candidates" in 96'. Damn. :bowdown:

[ImKobe]

When did MJ win a title in a 22-team league?

[HoopsNY]

For injuries, we always hear about Penny, Hill, KJ, Price, etc. (Kemp got fat--that isn't an "injury") but you have Rose, Arenas, Roy, Yao, D-Will, Amare (a better version of Kemp--no tears for him), Rondo, Noah as people from this era. Griffin, Love may not make it either (resumes are similar to Kemp's, except Griffin was once a MVP candidate). They just don't have the 90's nostalgia going for them.

This is essentially the problem. The arguments work when they work and don't work when they don't work, depending on who is using them. What you fail to realize is that I'm not trying to use this line of argumentation, on either side, period.

You're correct in your assumption. Many of those whom you mention would have probably made, or would probably make, the HOF. The problem with this argument is that while it lines up with some of the guys from the 90s, LeBron didn't face some of the guys mentioned by you in the playoffs (kinda like MJ didn't and some of the guys from the 90s). And if he did, they weren't at their best.

Guys like Penny, Cummings, KJ, Price, Daughtery, Harper, and Kemp were at their best, so the comparison isn't entirely apples to apples. Furthermore Kemp getting fat and being on cocaine shouldn't be MJ's problem.

I'm just gonna say this, MJ played on teams where there were advantages in HOF numbers, but the same can be said for LeBron. Why either side would use this argument is beyond me. It's silly, and I think even you can agree on that. What matters is how the players were when they played in that given year. HOF is a cumulative accomplishment. That's it.


Some of it is shady accounting. Terry Cummings made 2 all-star teams in an 8-9 year prime. We are hearing he was going to be a HOFer. :lol

Yea, you're right. I'm not saying he was guaranteed, but at least provide a little bit of context. After being traded from Milwaukee, Cummings goes to San Antonio and teams up with a young David Robinson.

The Spurs were a 21 win team the year prior and many people think that it was all because of Robinson. It wasn't. Cummings was added and put up 22/8 on 48%. The Spurs became an immediate contender and won 56 games (the most in franchise history up to that point).

The following season they won 55 games. Injuries started to creep in and by 1992, Cummings went down with a career ending injury at the age of 30.

It's not inconceivable to think that together, Robinson-Elliot-Cummings could have made deeper playoff runs and potentially won a championship together.

In 1992, Robinson went down and missed the last 14 games (Spurs won 47 games that year), but Cummings filled in nicely. He averaged 25 PPG and 13 Rebounds on 49% shooting in the final stretch. In the 1st round knockout, Cummings put up 26/11 on 52%.

Look, even if you don't want to think his career and tandem with Robinson could have led to the HOF had he not blown out his knees, then the point still retraces back to my original claim - what matters is what those guys did at the time.

RS '84-'85: 24/9 on 50%, All-Star, All-NBA
Playoffs '84-'85: 28/9/3/2 on 58%

That doesn't look like an elite season to you?

[HoopsNY]

Stockton was never a MVP candidate. :roll: That he was never a MVP candidate is used against him by people like Bill Simmons because he is the only top 40 all-time player to never be. He got a few 4th or 5th place votes in some years, like a lot of players do. Here is his "highest" finish:

1988-89 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[22May89] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

Magic Johnson (LAL) ..... 42.5 664.5
Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 27.5 598.8
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 5 362
Patrick Ewing (NYK) ..... 8 200
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 2 179.3
Charles Barkley (PHI) ... 0 94.3
John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 28
Kevin Johnson (PHO) ..... 0 22
Tom Chambers (PHO) ...... 0 20
Mark Price (CLE) ........ 0 18

Same with 90% the other players Chewbacca referenced. 9th place in MVP is not being a MVP candidate. :oldlol: Let's hone in on 96':

1995-96 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[20May96] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 109 3 0 1 0 1114
David Robinson (SAN) .... 0 54 29 14 9 574
Anfernee Hardaway (ORL) . 2 21 23 19 21 360
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 1 1 9 18 20 238
Scottie Pippen (CHI) .... 0 11 18 14 17 226
Gary Payton (SEA) ....... 0 7 0 13 10 98
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 1 0 8 7 14 85
Shawn Kemp (SEA) ........ 0 3 6 7 1 73
Grant Hill (DET) ........ 0 2 5 5 9 63
Shaquille O'Neal (ORL) .. 0 2 4 7 8 63
John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 1 1 0 0 12
Charles Barkley (PHO) ... 0 0 0 2 2 8
Earvin Johnson (LAL) .... 0 0 0 1 5 8
Alonzo Mourning (MIA) ... 0 0 1 0 1 6
Dennis Rodman (CHI) ..... 0 0 0 1 1 4
Terrell Brandon (CLE) ... 0 0 0 1 0 3
Mitch Richmond (SAC) .... 0 0 0 1 0 3

This is what I mean, you love creating your own parameters but never allow anyone else to create theirs. Furthermore, you're lying or being deceitful again.

Stockton 1990: One 3rd place vote
Stockton 1991: One 3rd place vote (though finished 12th overall)
Stockton 1995: One 1st place vote, two 2nd place votes, one 3rd place vote
Stockton 1996: One 2nd place vote, one 3rd place vote (though finished 11th overall)
Stockton 1998: One 3rd place vote (though finishing 13th)

So two years he's top ten with multiple votes in the top 3 categories. Does this make him a bonafide candidate in comparison to the elite players like MJ, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, and Malone? Certainly not. But the same goes for Pippen.

In addition, you already mentioned Shaq and Penny. In 1998, Payton finished 3rd overall and Baker got three 3rd place votes. Guess that doesn't count, either? How about Duncan and Robinson?

In 1996, Payton got seven 2nd place votes and Kemp had three 2nd place and six 3rd place votes. Guess that doesn't count, either, right?

In 1995, both Stockton and Malone received 1st and 2nd place votes. Let's disqualify that too because it doesn't fit TheFakeBullsFan's criteria.

In 1992, both Mullin and Hardaway received 2nd and 3rd place votes. Yup, let's disqualify that as well.

Being 9th doesn't qualify. Great. Now how many times did Pippen finish in the top 5? Just once. But we're supposed to hinge the entire argument on that? Amazing. And notice you can set that limitation, but no one else can set theirs.

You can't win with you, not because it's about winning, but because you create your own criteria that in some cases works against you. When others on this forum point it out, you switch parameters and then disqualify the previous argument, without actually addressing it.

[Roundball_Rock]

How many MVP candidates were there in 2020? 2019? 2018? We know the answers. There are 2-3 legitimate MVP candidates each season. You will get 12-15 people who actually receive votes because each voter has to list 5 players and the 4th and especially 5th place votes will scatter (their beloved Kyrie has gotten 0 of these votes in his career BTW). When the media or fans discuss the MVP race, they don't discuss the 14 people who ultimately get votes. They talk about the 2-3 people with an actual case for winning the award.

Using the logic put forward here, DeRozan, Lowry, Draymond Green, and Dennis Rodman were all "MVP candidates." That isn't convenient for the agenda, doe. The very same poster touting 9th place MVP finishes was just days ago saying a player who finished top 10 in half a season was poor "help." So 9th over 82 games is awesome while finishing 10th in half a season is poor "help." :lol

[HoopsNY]

How many MVP candidates were there in 2020? 2019? 2018? We know the answers. There are 2-3 legitimate MVP candidates each season. You will get 12-15 people who actually receive votes because each voter has to list 5 players and the 4th and especially 5th place votes will scatter (their beloved Kyrie has gotten 0 of these votes in his career BTW). When the media or fans discuss the MVP race, they don't discuss the 14 people who ultimately get votes. They talk about the 2-3 people with an actual case for winning the award.

Using the logic put forward here, DeRozan, Lowry, Draymond Green, and Dennis Rodman were all "MVP candidates." That isn't convenient for the agenda, doe. The very same poster touting 9th place MVP finishes was just days ago saying a player who finished top 10 in half a season was poor "help." So 9th over 82 games is awesome while finishing 10th in half a season is poor "help." :lol

:facepalm:facepalm


You can't win with you, not because it's about winning, but because you create your own criteria that in some cases works against you. When others on this forum point it out, you switch parameters and then disqualify the previous argument, without actually addressing it.

^^^

Good job mischaracterizing what I said Pippen's 1998 finals. Nothing unusual. Lemme know when you're finished misinterpreting and mischaracterizing what everyone says.

[MadDog]

Stockton 1990: One 3rd place vote
Stockton 1991: One 3rd place vote (though finished 12th overall)
Stockton 1995: One 1st place vote, two 2nd place votes, one 3rd place vote
Stockton 1998: One 3rd place vote (though finishing 13th)
All of this with Karl Malone, who finished ~top 3-4 from 1990-1991. Top 3 in 1995 and #2 overall in 1998. Wow! No wonder that duo is considered one of the best. They just happened to be playing in a league dripping with talent.

[HoopsNY]

All of this with Karl Malone, who finished ~top 3-4 from 1990-1991. Top 3 in 1995 and #2 overall in 1998. Wow! No wonder that duo is considered one of the best. They just happened to be playing in a league dripping with talent.

My point was to show TheFakeBullsFan that his original claim was not correct. He tried to say that the Bulls had two MVP candidates (didn't qualify this statement) every year.

The reality is that they didn't. Pippen finished 5th in 1996 and that was it. The rest of the years they played together, he got 0 first place votes in some years and in others got maybe 1. The same for 2nd place votes.

There was maybe one or two years where he received a first place vote, but TheFakeBullsFan wants to act like Pippen was up there with MJ, Malone, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Clyde, etc while he played alongside MJ.

When you address this, he jumps to a new argument about Stockton not getting any 1st-3rd place votes. Then that gets disproven. He then doesn't concede to it, instead jumps back to his original claim, this time qualifying what HE thinks is an MVP candidate and what that means for having a the only team with 2 guys that are.

The arguments keep changing. On top of it all, he'll accuse you of hating Pippen and lying about him for things that others on this forum say with regularity. It's unbelievable really.

[JBSptfn]

1991 had Magic, Worthy and Divac

Worthy was hurt during that series. And, I don't think that Divac is a HOF player.

[Roundball_Rock]

Worthy was hurt during that series. And, I don't think that Divac is a HOF player.

Divac made it through international play. In the NBA he was a 1x all-star, an all-star selection he received a decade later. They are desperate, though, so you can see why they are pointing to him. Any guesses what they will say if Kukoc makes the HOF? :oldlol:

At any rate, from 1992-1998 they always had more HOF in the finals and ECF.

1992: Bulls 2, Cavs 0
1992: Bulls 2, Blazers 1
1993: Bulls 2, Knicks 1
1993: Bulls 2, Suns 1
1996: Bulls 3, Magic 1
1996: Bulls 3, Sonics 1
1997: Bulls 4, Heat 1
1997: Bulls 4, Jazz 2
1998: Bulls 3, Pacers 2
1998: Bulls 3, Jazz 2

Parish shouldn't count for the Bulls in 97' but neither should Mullin for the 98' Pacers when he was their 5th best player.

Here is another way to parse it, top 3 in MVP players:

1992: Bulls 2, Cavs 0
1992: Bulls 2, Blazers 1
1993: Bulls 2, Knicks 0
1993: Bulls 2, Suns 1
1996: Bulls 2, Magic 2
1996: Bulls 2, Sonics 1
1997: Bulls 2, Heat 1
1997: Bulls 2, Jazz 1
1998: Bulls 2, Pacers 0
1998: Bulls 2, Jazz 1