Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

[goozeman]

However, to hear some on this board tell it you'd think Pippen was closer to another Laker in Magic Johnson. Pippen was a above average passer out of the SF position, but Magic Johnson he ain't, although some on here would like us to believe just that. First, like Kobe, Pippen played much of his career in the triangle. The triangle is a read/react offense that gives players the option to pass or shoot depending on what the defense shows. He also played with the greatest assist target ever in Michael Jordan. So Pippen had plenty of opportunity to put up big assist numbers every time he stepped on the court as a Bull, but when you actually look at the production he wasn't going out there and breaking down defenses with their passing -- 5.2apg for Pippen vs 4.7apg for Bryant. Half an assist difference is probably nothing more than Kobe running the offense through Shaq in the post more vs Pippen playing with a finisher in Jordan. In other words, despite half an assist edge for Pippen, for practical purposes the two are near identical as passers.

What's funny about this is that one of the biggest knocks on Kobe throughout his career was that he was generally regarded as ball hog, which was a reputation he probably earned. Shaq spent then 10 minutes in Kobe's eulogy recalling how Kobe wouldn't pass the damn ball, ever. You can find video after video on youtube of people lauding Kobe's me-first attitude on the court. So Kobe was really the exact opposite of a guy looking to distribute the ball. How then is putting up similar number to Pippen in the same offense? The answer is pretty simple... Pippen wasn't that great of play maker either. The numbers don't reflect him being anything more than an average to slightly above average facilitator in Phil's triangle. He got a bump from having Jordan as a finisher, also. The two years he played without Jordan in Phil's system, Pippen's assist numbers dropped out of the top 20 in assist both years. Kobe was putting up better assist and scoring numbers as a 23-year-old and second option in the triangle than Pippen's best and really only full season as primary scoring threat.

[3ball]

MJ averaged equal assists to pippen but assisted 33% more often (MJ shot more than pippen and can't assist on those shots).. so MJ averaged equal assists, but much higher assist percentage

And everyone said he was the best PG in the league after just a few games at PG in 1989..

he's also the only player to average 10 apg in a series without starting at PG.. so he was a better quick-passer than lebron (getting assists without holding the ball a long time).

[Mr. Woke]

LeBron is better than both of them and MJ anyway.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls' offense went from #1 in 97' to #13 w/out Pippen for half of 98'. Care to explain why Soundwave? :lol

The Bulls had a top 10 offense w/out Jordan but not w/out Pippen. #InconvenientTruth

[Shooter]

As a #2 options vs a #1 option. Cool.

[dbugz]

The Bulls' offense went from #1 in 97' to #13 w/out Pippen for half of 98'. Care to explain why Soundwave? :lol

The Bulls had a top 10 offense w/out Jordan but not w/out Pippen. #InconvenientTruth

https://i.postimg.cc/bw9Kysfk/222222.png

https://i.postimg.cc/8CYRvQ2w/Screenshot2.png

:roll:

dude is ignoring these :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

As a #2 options vs a #1 option. Cool.

:lol

[HoopsNY]

Pippen was a far better playmaker than Kobe. Career assists don't tell the entire story, peak/prime years do. Pippen averaged 6 assists in his compared to Kobe's 5.

It's not the world of difference, but anyone who saw the two play knew that Pippen was the better floor general.

[3ball]

The Bulls' offense went from #1 in 97' to #13 w/out Pippen for half of 98'. Care to explain why Soundwave? :lol

The Bulls had a top 10 offense w/out Jordan but not w/out Pippen. #InconvenientTruth

Actually, the Bulls' defensive ranking remaining unchanged from the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), to 1994 (6th)

So the massive drop-off from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd round team can be attributed entirely the absence of MJ's goat offense, which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

[light]

Pippen's career assist rate per 100 possessions is 7.8 which is only 0.1 points behind the great passer Larry Bird's 7.9.

Kobe's is 6.7.

(For reference, Jordan was 7.0 and LeBron is 10.0)

Kobe played more minutes and had the ball more than Pippen.

Kobe was a true black hole.

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/536202/BlackHoleAtlas-tz.jpg?_ga=2.161302269.112088365.1603518307-2079933648.1567636814

[3ball]

Pippen's career assist rate per 100 possessions is 7.8 which is only 0.1 points behind the great passer Larry Bird's 7.9.

Kobe's is 6.7.

(For reference, Jordan was 7.0 and LeBron is 10.0)

Kobe played more minutes and had the ball more than Pippen.

Kobe was a true black hole.

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/536202/BlackHoleAtlas-tz.jpg?_ga=2.161302269.112088365.1603518307-2079933648.1567636814

Pippen and MJ average the same APG, but MJ took more shots and can't assist on those shots

So what's their assist percentage, including regular season and playoffs?

[dbugz]

3ball winning this via sweep :bowdown:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen's career assist rate per 100 possessions is 7.8 which is only 0.1 points behind the great passer Larry Bird's 7.9.

Kobe's is 6.7.

(For reference, Jordan was 7.0 and LeBron is 10.0)

Kobe played more minutes and had the ball more than Pippen.

Plus, if these MJ stains actually watched MJ play they would know the triangle deflates assist totals (and offenses like D'Antoni's or Sloan's inflate assists).

Both players played outside the triangle later in their career. Pippen's per 100 was 9.8 in 02' in Portland, Kobe's high was 8.3 (he missed 3/5 of the season--7.9 for a full season). Jordan's was 9.9 the year he was stat padding (which he publicly admitted--he even had coaches give him regular updates on his stats and would frequently check the stats at the scorer's table) trying to match Magic in "triple doubles." Outside of that, his high was 8.1. As a comparison, LeBron's is 14.0.

OP is so bad he is embarrassed to post it under his main "Soundwave" and "LostCause" accounts.

[goozeman]

The Bulls' offense went from #1 in 97' to #13 w/out Pippen for half of 98'. Care to explain why Soundwave? :lol

The Bulls had a top 10 offense w/out Jordan but not w/out Pippen. #InconvenientTruth

I would explain it as cherry picking stats. The Pippen-led Bulls were 35-32 when Jordan unretired in 1995 and on a pace to win 42 games and scoring 100ppg on average. After Jordan came back they went 13-4 (62 win pace) and bumped their scoring average to 104ppg, which was only a point less their league-leading record setting 1996 team -- a top 10 offense all-tim in terms of ORtg. Both the 1994 and 1995 Bulls teams were middle of the pack in terms of scoring prowess while playing weak schedules. Nothing special, really. Those Pippen teams were book-ended by the 1993 and 1996 which are arguably two of the greatest offenses to ever step on the court. So, no, the Bulls were not better offensively without Jordan.

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/1XD7Mcwg/Screenshot-20201025-152250-Instagram.jpg

Avy

[sdot_thadon]

Man I've never seen so many insecure threads on Ish as these past few weeks. Anyhow, OP, or anonymous guy afraid to post his opinion on his original....anonymous account; their respective career usage rates would like to have a word with you.

31.8 vs. 22.5

I'll let you guess who is who.:facepalm

[MadDog]

Stockton is always mentioned , but he averaged 13-14 assists during his LONGASS prime. The reason Pippen doesn't get a pass is because he only averaged 1 more assist than Jordan :confusedshrug: Pippen isn't Tim Duncan or John Stockton. Hiding behind other stars makes your arguments weak :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Man I've never seen so many insecure threads on Ish as these past few weeks. Anyhow, OP, or anonymous guy afraid to post his opinion on his original....anonymous account; their respective career usage rates would like to have a word with you.

31.8 vs. 22.5

I'll let you guess who is who.:facepalm

:lol

This is progress for them. They at least have finally realized there are categories other than scoring. :applause: Maybe they can look at rebounding next and see how many times MJ led his team in rebounding in the playoffs. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Stockton is always mentioned , but he averaged 13-14 assists during his LONGASS prime. The reason Pippen doesn't get a pass is because he only averaged 1 more assist than Jordan :confusedshrug: Pippen isn't Tim Duncan or John Stockton. Hiding behind other stars makes your arguments weak :oldlol:

APG Regular Season

Jordan 5.3
Pippen 5.2


APG Playoffs

Jordan 5.7
Pippen 5.0


Assist Percentage Regular Season

Jordan 24.9
Pippen 23.1


Assist Percentage Playoffs

Jordan 28.2
Pippen 21.7

[dbugz]

This is progress for them. They at least have finally realized there are categories other than scoring. :applause: Maybe they can look at rebounding next and see how many times MJ led his team in rebounding in the playoffs. :oldlol:

https://i.postimg.cc/bw9Kysfk/222222.png

https://i.postimg.cc/8CYRvQ2w/Screenshot2.png

so flawless :bowdown:

[MadDog]

APG Regular Season

Jordan 5.3
Pippen 5.2


APG Playoffs

Jordan 5.7
Pippen 5.0


Assist Percentage Regular Season

Jordan 24.9
Pippen 23.1


Assist Percentage Playoffs

Jordan 28.2
Pippen 21.7

Good breakdown. The numbers I used were from '91-98 or when Chicago won titles. You're right that if we expanded years, though, Jordan averaged more. Regardless of that, Pippen ain't who these guys claim. Bringing up John Stockton, as if Pippen EVER dished out assists like that :oldlol:

[3ball]

Good breakdown. The numbers I used were from '91-98 or when Chicago won titles. You're right that if we expanded years, though, Jordan averaged more. Regardless of that, Pippen ain't who these guys claim. Bringing up John Stockton, as if Pippen EVER dished out assists like that :oldlol:

In the 91-98' Playoffs, MJ and Pippen averaged near-equal assists but MJ's assist percentage was much higher (because he took more shots and can't assist on those shots):



APG for 91-98' Playoffs

Jordan 5.3
Pippen 5.5


Assist Percentage for 91-98' Playoffs

Jordan 26.3
Pippen 22.8



So MJ averaged equal assists to pippen and assisted 20% more often (while doubling his scoring, aka goat load)

[goozeman]

Man I've never seen so many insecure threads on Ish as these past few weeks. Anyhow, OP, or anonymous guy afraid to post his opinion on his original....anonymous account; their respective career usage rates would like to have a word with you.

31.8 vs. 22.5

I'll let you guess who is who.:facepalm

I've already addressed this. Pippen's USG% in 1994 and 1995 was 27.1 and 26.1 as first option, respectively, but he only averaged about 1.5 shots more than he did in 1993 with Jordan on the court. His usage skyrocketed, but despite taking basically the same numbers of shots and having much higher usage, his assist numbers plummeted by 10 percent. By 1995 Pippen was assisting the ball 20 percent less than 1993 despite having the second highest USG% of his career on the same number of shots as second option -- 22.1 in 93 to 22.8 in 95. So what happened? Magic Pippen should been flirting with double digit assist averages if he's the playmaker everybody claims, but sadly it was the opposite. He got worse as a distributor -- much worse.

Meanwhile, what happened with Kobe, a guy everybody agrees was a selfish, me-first scorer? When his usage goes up Kobe's assist numbers go up, and that's even taking on way more of the offensive load than Pippen ever did in his career. His number behaved like you would expect -- not the opposite. His production increased across the board. Pippen's defy explanation unless a lot of his "playmaking" just happened to be a matter of playing a SF facilitator in the triangle with Jordan. There's no other explanation other than to say Pippen's numbers were to no small degree a result of the system and nothing more, unless you can explain how his assist numbers drop mysteriously 10 to 20 percent while getting a career highs in touches and not even really shooting the ball more.

[MadDog]

In the 91-98' Playoffs, MJ and Pippen averaged near-equal assists but MJ's assist percentage was much higher (because he took more shots and can't assist on those shots):



APG for 91-98' Playoffs

Jordan 5.3
Pippen 5.5


Assist Percentage for 91-98' Playoffs

Jordan 26.3
Pippen 22.8



So MJ averaged equal assists to pippen and assisted 20% more often (while doubling his scoring, aka goat load)

Looks like you got it covered here :confusedshrug: Keep banging.

[HoopsNY]

Man I've never seen so many insecure threads on Ish as these past few weeks. Anyhow, OP, or anonymous guy afraid to post his opinion on his original....anonymous account; their respective career usage rates would like to have a word with you.

31.8 vs. 22.5

I'll let you guess who is who.:facepalm

Good point

[HoopsNY]

Stockton is always mentioned , but he averaged 13-14 assists during his LONGASS prime. The reason Pippen doesn't get a pass is because he only averaged 1 more assist than Jordan :confusedshrug: Pippen isn't Tim Duncan or John Stockton. Hiding behind other stars makes your arguments weak :oldlol:

No offense but you're being unfair. And you've lost me with the Stockton comparison. What does that have to do with Kobe/Pippen?

[MadDog]

No offense but you're being unfair. And you've lost me with the Stockton comparison. What does that have to do with Kobe/Pippen?

The truth can often be unfair :confusedshrug: John Stockton was mentioned because just like with Magic (read the OP), Pippen’s playmaking is allgedly comparable. I was told to stop looking at Pippen's scoring and checkout his assists. The same group crying about Pippen’s assists act like we’re glossing over Prime Nash. :oldlol: Give me a break. Again, Pippen averaged 1 more assist than Jordan during their reign. As mentioned, though, they were basically EQUAL when percentage of assists are factored.

[HoopsNY]

The truth can often be unfair :confusedshrug: John Stockton was mentioned because just like with Magic (read the OP), Pippen’s playmaking is allgedly comparable. I was told to stop looking at Pippen's scoring and checkout his assists. The same group crying about Pippen’s assists act like we’re glossing over Prime Nash. :oldlol: Give me a break. Again, Pippen averaged 1 more assist than Jordan during their reign. As mentioned, though, they were basically EQUAL when percentage of assists are factored.

How does that make Pippen a bad playmaker, though? It certainly doesn't speak to the Kobe/Pippen debate where playmaking is concerned. Kobe wasn't the playmaker Pippen was.

[Axe]

https://i.postimg.cc/bw9Kysfk/222222.png

https://i.postimg.cc/8CYRvQ2w/Screenshot2.png

:roll:

dude is ignoring these :roll:
:oldlol:

[Axe]

Pippen was a far better playmaker than Kobe. Career assists don't tell the entire story, peak/prime years do. Pippen averaged 6 assists in his compared to Kobe's 5.

It's not the world of difference, but anyone who saw the two play knew that Pippen was the better floor general.
Kobe was obviously a ballhogger during his younger days because he wanted to be the 'next mj'. So scoring became his forte ofc, all the more when he thinks that's the way he would flashy everytime he's in the floor. But overall, pip was a better player outside of scoring, especially when it came to defensive capabilities. He must not be forgotten just because he doesn't have mvps nor fmvps.

[MadDog]

How does that make Pippen a bad playmaker, though? It certainly doesn't speak to the Kobe/Pippen debate where playmaking is concerned. Kobe wasn't the playmaker Pippen was.

Who said it made him a "bad" playmaker? :confusedshrug: Again, I'm addressing the OP's line where Magic was mentioned. Like Magic, Stockton is brought up vs Pippen. Ad nauseam. We are being told to ignore Stockton's assists and focus on his PPG, but with Pippen, the exact opposite. Shit doesn't make sense.

[HoopsNY]

Kobe was obviously a ballhogger during his younger days because he wanted to be the 'next mj'. So scoring became his forte ofc, all the more when he thinks that's the way he would flashy everytime he's in the floor. But overall, pip was a better player outside of scoring, especially when it came to defensive capabilities. He must not be forgotten just because he doesn't have mvps nor fmvps.

No that's fair. The status given to Pippen on this forum by MJ fans is beyond ridiculous. He's one of the THE greatest players of all-time. And not top 50, more like top 25.

[Axe]

No that's fair. The status given to Pippen on this forum by MJ fans is beyond ridiculous. He's one of the THE greatest players of all-time. And not top 50, more like top 25.
They treat pippen as if he was never a winner at all lmao. The bulls dynasty isn't complete without him.

[goozeman]

No that's fair. The status given to Pippen on this forum by MJ fans is beyond ridiculous. He's one of the THE greatest players of all-time. And not top 50, more like top 25.

Imagine Pippen's career without Jordan and on what basis would you have him that high? BTW, I only used Kobe because of his reputation as a ball hog and he played in the triangle, right? I could have easily used somebody like Clyde who had a similar usage and played for Rick Adelman in Portland. That was in Adelman's pre-Princeton offense days (a similar read-react offense to the triangle), but Adelman even then liked to run sets where he allowed Clyde to moonlight as facilitator in the offense, so you go from 90, 91 & 92 when Clyde almost had Portland in three straight Finals, and he was putting up 15 percent more assists per 100 on almost exact same usage as Pippen. So, like Kobe, there you have Clyde who nobody really thinks of as "playmaker...," but Pippen is somehow an all-time great one? Come on... It's just ridiculous the way people talk about Pippen like he's Magic or even a guy capable of taking over pg full time. He wasn't.

[Micku]

No that's fair. The status given to Pippen on this forum by MJ fans is beyond ridiculous. He's one of the THE greatest players of all-time. And not top 50, more like top 25.

You think? Not too sure if he is anymore given KD and Curry and all. Would you have Pippen over Wade?

Granted for me personally, I don't like the setting the numbers. I prefer them by tiers.

[HoopsNY]

Imagine Pippen's career without Jordan and on what basis would you have him that high? BTW, I only used Kobe because of his reputation as a ball hog and he played in the triangle, right? I could have easily used somebody like Clyde who had a similar usage and played for Rick Adelman in Portland. That was in Adelman's pre-Princeton offense days (a similar read-react offense to the triangle), but Adelman even then liked to run sets where he allowed Clyde to moonlight as facilitator in the offense, so you go from 90, 91 & 92 when Clyde almost had Portland in three straight Finals, and he was putting up 15 percent more assists per 100 on almost exact same usage as Pippen. So, like Kobe, there you have Clyde who nobody really thinks of as "playmaker...," but Pippen is somehow an all-time great one? Come on... It's just ridiculous the way people talk about Pippen like he's Magic or even a guy capable of taking over pg full time. He wasn't.

The difference is Pippen could do all of those things but was a far greater defensive player than Clyde. And Pippen's defense was a pivotal part of Chicago's success. Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders, ever. Clyde simply wasn't.

Also, the assumption is that Chicago wouldn't have a #2 to compliment Pippen had Jordan not been there for any of those years than Pippen was. We already saw Chicago win 55 games in 1993-94; if they add a reasonable #2 option (18-20 PPG), then I think it's safe to say they win at least one championship during Pippen's career.

[And1AllDay]

quiet down op

https://i.postimg.cc/y8ZDM6h0/pip-Saved-Jordan.png

[Axe]

The difference is Pippen could do all of those things but was a far greater defensive player than Clyde. And Pippen's defense was a pivotal part of Chicago's success. Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders, ever. Clyde simply wasn't.

Also, the assumption is that Chicago wouldn't have a #2 to compliment Pippen had Jordan not been there for any of those years than Pippen was. We already saw Chicago win 55 games in 1993-94; if they add a reasonable #2 option (18-20 PPG), then I think it's safe to say they win at least one championship during Pippen's career.
On top of that, pippen never missed the playoffs until his farewell season in which he came back to the bulls.

[goozeman]

The difference is Pippen could do all of those things but was a far greater defensive player than Clyde. And Pippen's defense was a pivotal part of Chicago's success. Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders, ever. Clyde simply wasn't.

Also, the assumption is that Chicago wouldn't have a #2 to compliment Pippen had Jordan not been there for any of those years than Pippen was. We already saw Chicago win 55 games in 1993-94; if they add a reasonable #2 option (18-20 PPG), then I think it's safe to say they win at least one championship during Pippen's career.

You are just completely overrating individual defense. Sorry, basketball doesn't work that way. Team defense trumps all. Clyde is the same size as Pippen and a better athlete. He could easily slide to SF next to Jordan, Grant, Harper, Rodman (all HOF/great defenders) and Chicago would have utterly trounced the league with two alpha dog scorers like Drex and Jordan running things and still had an all-time great defense. In fact, Chicago would have become a super team at that point and it would have been bad for the league. Drexler is a significant upgrade in every area except man defense, especially as an iso scorer. Being a great man defender doesn't have the cache you think it does, and certainly doesn't move the needle nearly as much how GM's construct rosters.

As far as Pippen winning in Chicago, the only way the win anything is if the signed a bonefide first option like Drexler, but then it wouldn't be Pippen's team... The only roster in the last 30 years that has captured a championship with anything close to the construction of the Bulls with a Pippen-level perimeter scorer as their 1st option is Detroit.

[Micku]

The difference is Pippen could do all of those things but was a far greater defensive player than Clyde. And Pippen's defense was a pivotal part of Chicago's success. Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders, ever. Clyde simply wasn't.

Also, the assumption is that Chicago wouldn't have a #2 to compliment Pippen had Jordan not been there for any of those years than Pippen was. We already saw Chicago win 55 games in 1993-94; if they add a reasonable #2 option (18-20 PPG), then I think it's safe to say they win at least one championship during Pippen's career.

I don't know about that. But it's by year to year basis. You guys like Shaq who had crazy on talent on his team too. Penny, Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scout, they couldn't get it done. I don't think they would've done it in the early 90s. I don't think they were good enough.

Although 92 would be interesting. Although it's hard to believe them getting pass the Knicks w/o a guy like MJ too that year. And Portland was stacked of talent, so it would've been interesting. Clyde would have more of a filed day tho. Unless Pippen guard him all the time. But there were times where MJ would better job and vice versa on different opponents. MJ did a great job on him that series.

But 93? I don't think so. Knicks was great. Suns of 93 was one of best teams not to win it. MJ average 40.

94 was probably their best year. Pippen was pretty much at his peak. If they would've gain some sort of second option then yeah. They probably would've gone to the finals. I dunno if they would beat the Rockets. And before the Rockets, they would still have to face the pacers.

But not to say it's not impossible. I believe the Bulls given the right pieces could've been similar to the Pistons in a way. Slow pacing, great defense, and great team game to overcome their opponents. And Pippen would be the major piece to make that engine go. But at the same token, the Bulls and Pippen weren't the same every year. It honestly depends on who they get.

Maybe a guy like Joe Dumars or Mitch Richmond. But in general, I dunno. And the box plus/minus of MJ was super crazy back then in 88-93, so it's hard to replace. Like seriously only like select players even compare both RS and playoffs. Like historically great. Like he's like number 2 in the playoffs, behind LeBron in 09 compared to him in 91? However that doesn't always translate wins. But even in the late 90s, you'll see Pippen and MJ opponent fg%, right? It's virtually the same. MJ defense is also hard to replace too. He was the best defensive 2 guard in the league.

I think it's fair to say that they'll be a championship contender. I think they could possibly go to the finals. Winning it tho? I dunno. Depends on the talent and a bit of luck. Like even in 91 finals, Pippen got a lot of credit for guarding Magic in game 2. Rightfully so. But MJ guarded Magic most of the time. And in game 3 was the most important game. Pippen tried to replicate what he did in game 2, but got fouled out. MJ also had a game tying shot in game 3 and sent them to OT where they won. Plus, MJ is a good passer and was finding Paxson due to his gravity. So, there's a lot of factors involved. The series instead of being 5 games, could've been 6-7. Those games were close. But, James Worthy and Scott got injured as well.

And injury is another key.

So, I dunno. Maybe, maybe not? But I wouldn't say it's a safe bet tho? It depends on the year. But I do think they would definitely go to the finals one of those years.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's just ridiculous the way people talk about Pippen like he's Magic or even a guy capable of taking over pg full time. He wasn't.

Pippen literally was a full-time PG in Portland in 2002 and 2003. :lol What happened? Portland did much better during that time frame, especially compared to when he was hurt or off the court.

It always fascinates me how the people who diminish Pippen the most will turn around and hype players like Drexler, Payton, Stockton, and even Miller. All these players were in the same era. It is obvious who the most "decorated" player of the group was--yet he is the one who was a bum? :oldlol:


Imagine Pippen's career without Jordan and on what basis would you have him that high?

He was projected to be a superstar by Detroit and other teams were high on him (Cleveland, Sacramento, etc.). Detroit "desperately" (GM's words) tried to trade up to draft him. Last I checked, MJ was not on any of these teams.

People overstate the value of rangz for sidekicks/3rd options in their all-time ratings. If you look at ESPN's top 21-40 players, it is even between players with rangz and those without any.

James Worthy, McHale, Dumars, Gasol, Klay all won multiple chips. None are close to Pippen all-time. That suggests there is a difference in quality there, which there is. Pippen was the only one of these players to make multiple all-NBA 1st teams. McHale made all-NBA 1st team too--but he did it only 1x (Pippen 3x) and that was the only all-NBA team McHale ever made. Pippen was the only one who was a real MVP candidate (McHale finished 4th in his peak year, but was behind his teammate Bird, who was 3rd).

What we know for sure is if Pippen didn't play with Jordan, OP and his ilk would be telling us how great Pippen was like they do with every 90's all-star (even non-HOF players) except for MJ's teammates. :lol


So, like Kobe, there you have Clyde who nobody really thinks of as "playmaker...," but Pippen is somehow an all-time great one?

Nobody thinks he was a great playmaker like Nash or Magic. Why people credit him is, those of us who watched him play, noticed his team's offenses consistently tanked whenever he was not around. When the same thing happens an entire career, then, unless you are an insecure stan, you have to reach an obvious conclusion. Even MVP Jordan couldn't keep the Bulls as a top 10 offense w/out Pippen at the controls in 98'.

For perspective, Pippen and MJ stan favorite Stockton both missed time in 98'. When both came back, their offenses improved dramatically. Guess whose offense improved more, though? Hint: it wasn't Stockton's team.

[dbugz]

Pippen literally was a full-time PG in Portland in 2002 and 2003. :lol What happened? Portland did much better during that time frame, especially compared to when he was hurt or off the court.

It always fascinates me how the people who diminish Pippen the most will turn around and hype players like Drexler, Payton, Stockton, and even Miller. All these players were in the same era. It is obvious who the most "decorated" player of the group was--yet he is the one who was a bum?



He was projected to be a superstar by Detroit and other teams were high on him (Cleveland, Sacramento, etc.). Detroit "desperately" (GM's words) tried to trade up to draft him. Last I checked, MJ was not on any of these teams.

People overstate the value of rangz for sidekicks/3rd options in their all-time ratings. If you look at ESPN's top 21-40 players, it is even between players with rangz and those without any.

James Worthy, McHale, Dumars, Gasol, Klay all won multiple chips. None are close to Pippen all-time. That suggests there is a difference in quality there, which there is. Pippen was the only one of these players to make multiple all-NBA 1st teams. McHale made all-NBA 1st team too--but he did it only 1x (Pippen 3x) and that was the only all-NBA team McHale ever made. Pippen was the only one who was a real MVP candidate (McHale finished 4th in his peak year, but was behind his teammate Bird, who was 3rd).

What we know for sure is if Pippen didn't play with Jordan, OP and his ilk would be telling us how great Pippen was like they do with every 90's all-star (even non-HOF players) except for MJ's teammates. :lol



Nobody thinks he was a great playmaker like Nash or Magic. Why people credit him is, those of us who watched him play, noticed his team's offenses consistently tanked whenever he was not around. When the same thing happens an entire career, then, unless you are an insecure stan, you have to reach an obvious conclusion. Even MVP Jordan couldn't keep the Bulls as a top 10 offense w/out Pippen at the controls in 98'.

For perspective, Pippen and MJ stan favorite Stockton both missed time in 98'. When both came back, their offenses improved dramatically. Guess whose offense improved more, though? Hint: it wasn't Stockton's team.

https://i.postimg.cc/bw9Kysfk/222222.png

https://i.postimg.cc/8CYRvQ2w/Screenshot2.png



imagine having an identity crisis :oldlol:

get some help, you badly need it

[MadDog]

Nobody thinks he was a great playmaker like Nash or Magic. Why people credit him is, those of us who watched him play, noticed his team's offenses consistently tanked whenever he was not around. When the same thing happens an entire career, then, unless you are an insecure stan, you have to reach an obvious conclusion. Even MVP Jordan couldn't keep the Bulls as a top 10 offense w/out Pippen at the controls in 98'.

Then so should Jordan. Pippen only averaged 1 more assist than Jordan during their title reign, and they "equaled" assists when the percentages are figured. We don't hear that from your ilk, but do see you ignore scoring, because that would capitulate Jordan's burden :oldlol:


https://i.postimg.cc/bw9Kysfk/222222.png

https://i.postimg.cc/8CYRvQ2w/Screenshot2.png

imagine having an identity crisis

get some help, you badly need it

:oldlol:

All these words about a "flawless" Jordan, but why is that same poster in threads talking about his "failures" :confusedshrug: Do LeBron fans really lie to themselves?

[Roundball_Rock]

It's just ridiculous the way people talk about Pippen like he's Magic or even a guy capable of taking over pg full time. He wasn't.

"Couldn't play full-time PG." :lol From 2003 (so real time, not a MJ stan with an agenda decades later):


The Blazers are in such a surprisingly strong position because Cheeks has rejuvenated 37-year-old Scottie Pippen by converting him into a high-energy point guard. Last Saturday, Pippen rescued the Blazers from their mini-crisis by playing help defense, pushing the tempo and feeding Rasheed Wallace inside in the first five minutes to set the tone for Portland's 94-80 win over Indiana. "He has six rings," center Dale Davis says of Pippen. "Who better to lead us?"

Cheeks was hoping to go easy this season on Pippen, who started slowly after undergoing minor knee surgery last summer. But when the Blazers staggered to a 3-6 start, Cheeks made Michael Jordan's former lieutenant the point man. The Blazers have been on a 37-16 roll since.

Pippen paid similar dividends when Cheeks turned him into a point guard during the second half of last season. While the position is still relatively new to Pippen--he was a small forward during his first 14 NBA seasons, including 11 in the Bulls' triangle offense--the responsibilities aren't. "He handled the ball the majority of the time in Chicago and pushed the tempo," says
Pacers coach Isiah Thomas. "The difference is that he's calling a
lot of the plays."

https://vault.si.com/vault/2003/03/17/inside-the-nba

[dbugz]

:oldlol:

All these words about a "flawless" Jordan, but why is that same poster in threads talking about his "failures" :confusedshrug: Do LeBron fans really lie to themselves?

they are so desperate and stup!d at the same. typical libron fans :roll:

[Proctor]

https://i.postimg.cc/bw9Kysfk/222222.png

https://i.postimg.cc/8CYRvQ2w/Screenshot2.png

so flawless :bowdown:

:roll:

Roundthe_Clock with his usual identity crisis. Banging away paragraphs to divert that nobody bothers to read.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan stans have no beliefs, principles, etc. so simply reverse engineer their "opinions" from whatever their agenda is (take praising Drexler, Payton, Stockton, and Miller for being lesser players than Pippen while attacking the latter relentlessly, as an example).

My criteria tells me MJ is #2 all-time. I am not going to bump him down simply for personal reasons. I know this would be hard for MJ stans to understand, but this is how most people operate. :lol

[dbugz]

^3ball destroyed you, just admit it :oldlol:

you got exposed already :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Exposed as having intellectual integrity, not simply going by emotions and bias. :pimp: I can see why a MJ stain would think that is a bad thing, though.

[dbugz]

Exposed as having intellectual integrity, not simply going by emotions and bias. :pimp: I can see why a MJ stain would think that is a bad thing, though.

MJ > libron
MJ game is flawless

admit it or you need professional help :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ > libron
MJ game is flawless

admit it or you need professional help :oldlol:

I need to say it every couple hours to reassure MJ stains? Ok, I'll do you all a solid since you are hurting so much these days. Suicide is a serious thing and if this can save some lives, not a big ask. I'll make it super official so you can pin it to your fridge or make it your computer wallpaper.

I, Roundball_Rock, by the power vested in me by Jordan stans, do hereby certify Michael Jeffrey Jordan had a flawless game. Furthermore, Michael Jeffrey Jordan was better than LiBron James. I give this under my hand and Nike seal and sign it with my Space Jam pen on the 26th day of October in the year of our Lord 57.

[MadDog]

I need to say it every couple hours to reassure MJ stains? Ok, I'll do you all a solid since you are hurting so much these days. Suicide is a serious thing and if this can save some lives, not a big ask. I'll make it super official so you can pin it to your fridge or make it your computer wallpaper.

I, Roundball_Rock, by the power vested in me by Jordan stans, do hereby certify Michael Jeffrey Jordan had a flawless game. Furthermore, Michael Jeffrey Jordan was better than LiBron James. I give this under my hand and Nike seal and sign it with my Space Jam pen on the 26th day of October in the year of our Lord 57.

Dbugz has this lame on a string :oldlol: That sonnet wont mean squat the next time you bitch about Jordan's 3 point percentage. Flawless though! :yaohappy:

[dbugz]

Dbugz has this lame on a string :oldlol: That sonnet wont mean squat the next time you bitch about Jordan's 3 point percentage. Flawless though! :yaohappy:

your boy needs a lot of explaining to do :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn, you guys are dumb as rocks. No wonder you buy the same sneaker every year. :oldlol:

In the GOAT discussion people are talking meaningful flaws that can be exploited by the opposition (e.g., Wilt's FT shooting). No one cared that MJ couldn't shoot threes in the 90's just as no one cared KAJ couldn't in the 80's. It wasn't relevant to their games. If he played today, which is what had come up in that thread, then it would potentially be a problem. This shouldn't be hard to understand for most people. :confusedshrug:

[dbugz]

^no coming back from that.

Time to give it up :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Whatever helps your recovery. :cheers:

[goozeman]

"Couldn't play full-time PG." :lol From 2003 (so real time, not a MJ stan with an agenda decades later):



https://vault.si.com/vault/2003/03/17/inside-the-nba


Pippen was not the full-time PG for Portland, bro. Portland ran a point-by-committee with Pippen, Bonzi Wells, and Derek Anderson because Stoudamire was in Cheeks' dog house. Cheeks had Damon coming off the bench playing healthy minutes though. That article doesn't prove Pippen could have played PG full-time or was a viable option at that position. They went back to Stoudamire in the playoffs cause after game 1 Dirk absolutely tortured Pippen, dropping 46 points on him. Scottie had horrific -19 on/off that game. Pippen came back out for game 7 wanting to guard Dirk and Dirk torched him again for 31. It's funny cause you cite 2003 when Pippen actually missed 20 percent of the RS that year, played less than 30 minutes per game, and was Portland's 4th option. He did play pretty well when asked to fill-in the pg-by-committee role that year, but Pippen in his career was never a viable full-time option as starter at PG. He could play PG as needed in a pinch. Lots of players have done that throughout their careers. Jordan did it and posted triple-doubles almost every game. There are many examples.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's funny cause you cite 2003 when Pippen actually missed 20 percent of the RS that year

What was their record in the games he played versus the games he didn't? Whenever he was out the lineup, his teams consistently declined by double digit wins (pro-rated over 82 games). As to the rest of your BWBS, let's stick to the issue in the OP. Some duller people have trouble reading so let's limit the scope to limit the length in the hope they can process more out of smaller doses.

Since the subject is offense, and as you just admitted, Pippen was off the court a lot we can use on/off data. He played for about half of minutes so it is an even split either way.

03' Blazers offensive rating with Pippen on: 108.6 (3rd in NBA)
03' Blazers offensive rating with Pippen off: 103.0 (tied for 21st in the NBA)

If this was an outlier we could ignore it but this was a consistent trend for the years we have on/off data.

We have offensive rating data for his time on the Bulls that Backpick's includes in their profile of him (they have him #25 all-time, behind Wade). In 94' they were -2.6 rORTG w/out him. We don't have the data for all of his games, but we do from BP for 71 RS/PO games with Pippen, Kukoc, Grant all playing. They were +2.2 during that time frame. We are talking the difference between #8 offense and the #21 offense.

In 98'? Cover your ears. The Bulls were #13 w/out Pippen and #4 with him. The Bulls' gain with Pippen's return>the Jazz's gain with Stockton's return in the same year.

I know MJ stans are having trouble picking up the material so let's close with a graph that MJ stans may be able to understand.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

Do you see that massive decline (it is the part where the line drops to the floor)? They went from +8 rORTG to +1 w/out Pippen and then back to +6 with him. The decline was greater than the decline when MJ retired (see the graph) and the gain greater than when MJ returned in 95' (graph).

What are the corresponding numbers for players MJ stans praise? The Blazers did exactly the same when Drexler was hurt in 93' and 94'. When he was traded, they did the same without him as with him. This is the MJ stains' great big hope of a 90's perimeter player to posit against Pippen too. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

This is what intellectual integrity entails. All the available evidence (and there is a lot more out there) shows Pippen had huge positive impact on offenses. There isn't any to the contrary. Can Soundwave admit a basic fact? He doesn't have to like him to admit reality. He won't...

That particular graph doesn't have the 95' MJ number. They went from +1 to +4, so MJ lifted them +3 versus +5 for Pippen in 98'. In PPG, Pippen's return raised the Bulls 7 PPG, slightly more than Stockton's return (every PG got 10-13 per 100 assists in that system BTW. Stockton got value added but the core big assist production was in the system as scrubs like Howard Eisely, John Crotty, an old Mark Jackson, and many others proved. 10 APG per 100 was the floor for a PG under Sloan).

[Axe]

:roll:

Roundthe_Clock with his usual identity crisis. Banging away paragraphs to divert that nobody bothers to read.
Yikes. :lol

[goozeman]

This is what intellectual integrity entails. All the available evidence (and there is a lot more out there) shows Pippen had huge positive impact on offenses. There isn't any to the contrary. Can Soundwave admit a basic fact? He doesn't have to like him to admit reality. He won't...

That particular graph doesn't have the 95' MJ number. They went from +1 to +4, so MJ lifted them +3 versus +5 for Pippen in 98'. In PPG, Pippen's return raised the Bulls 7 PPG, slightly more than Stockton's return (every PG got 10-13 per 100 assists in that system BTW. Stockton got value added but the core big assist production was in the system as scrubs like Howard Eisely, John Crotty, an old Mark Jackson, and many others proved. 10 APG per 100 was the floor for a PG under Sloan).

I don't get your moralistic tone. Seems like you are trying to setup a straw man. Pippen is a basketball player, not a saint. And we are on a message board, not in church. There are no absolute truths here, and there is plenty of room for disagreement. The assertion being put forward by you and a few others here is that Pippen was some kind of playmaking savant with the Bulls. When you analyze Pippen's numbers in context, I have already conceded that he was above average, but he was not "great." He wasn't a Magic or a Stockton. Not even close. He was just good starter who played a lot of minutes under all-time great coach while unparalleled benefit of Jordan, the greatest finisher and scorer in the history of the game.

The whole point of this thread is to put Pippen's numbers in proper context, which is why the comparison to Kobe is so apt. Kobe was by his own admission a me-first guy on the court. He played in the triangle as a second option just like Pippen. Nobody today thinks of him as a passer. Nobody... Yet when you compare the two for their careers and look at them in the context of both usage and assist percentages, Kobe was nearly on par with Pippen as an assist man. What's more, when Pippen didn't have the benefit of playing with Jordan for two years, his playmaking plummeted by 20 percent by year two. If he had taken more shots like Kobe, this would be understandable. But he didn't! His field goal attempts remained relatively flat from 1992 through 95. Meanwhile, when Kobe's usage went up, even though he was shooting at a career pace as a second option, Kobe's assist number continued to climb. Even in Pippen's peak assist year with the Bulls, Kobe put up a better assist percentage and was only slightly inferior assist guy per 100. Pippen was good, not great. Just because somebody complained about Kobe having the higher usage, I did this again with Clyde, and it's pretty obvious that Drexler was the better playmaker no matter how you look at it, even just by the raw numbers.

Speaking of being disingenuous, As far as the graph you posted it looks like something that a bunch of amateurs put together. It doesn't show anything, really. Yes, the Bulls efficiency plummeted early in the 1997 season, but why was that? Could it be that it was because Pippen was supposed to have surgery over the summer to repair his foot, but instead getting the procedure and rehabbing in the offseason, in typical Pippen fashion he decided to wait until the beginning of the season so he could "recover on company time" and stick to the Bulls and Jerry Krause. Worse still, Pippen didn't even tell the team, and just showed up to training camp still injured, so the Bulls were unexpectedly a man down heading into the season. But even with Pippen's inexcusable behavior, by the time Pippen returned, the Bulls has reeled off a 12-2 record in the previous fourteen games and were playing at 98 ORtg clip. The Bulls that season with Pippen had 99 ORtg, so the real data was that the Bulls were one point better that season with Pippen on the floor. The actual on-off numbers for Pippen support this being closer to the truth as Pippen was only +3.3 for the season. In the playoffs, Pippen was positively terrible in 1998, posting a -1.4. 1998 was actually one of Pippen's worst years from an efficiency standpoint, but you are absurdly attempting to make the claim that he was a high-impact guy that season. Oh, btw, why doesn't your graph begin in 1992 when the Bulls had a top-five offense all-time? I suspect the reason is that the creators wanted to hide the fact that without Jordan the Bulls offensive production plummeted from historic highs. Everybody knows the Bulls coasted in 1993, but were actually even better than they were in 92. So, once again, you graph gives a intentionally misleading impression.

[goozeman]

Correction for the post above^^^: I meant ppg above when discussing Bulls with and without Pippen, not ORtg. The Bulls scored at 93.5ppg rate without Pippen for the entirety of his time off, and 96.7 for the season. With Pippen for the the season the Bulls scored 99.1 for the seasn, giving you that average between the two. However, from 12/13/97 to 01/09/98 (almost a full month of 14 games and a 12-2 record) the Bulls were by then scoring at a 98ppg rate. Since ORtg is just ppg controlled for pace at 100, the point still stands. The Bulls after November of 1997 were roughly only one point worse on offense without Pippen on the floor. In terms of margin of victory, Pippen's contribution was +1.9. In other words, after November Pippen was worth less than a point both ways on the court in the 1998 RS.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

People rip on Kobe's passing but he's actually 2 or 3 times higher tier of a passer then Kareem ever was.

Kobe played point guard for five championships. Kareem always needed a player to triple his assists (Oscar or magic) in order to win rings, or needed two teammates to double his assists. Kareem was a very untalented passer. Kobe was an extremely talented passer but choose to not use it as much as he could have.

[ImKobe]

People rip on Kobe's passing but he's actually 2 or 3 times higher tier of a passer then Kareem ever was.

Kobe played point guard for five championships. Kareem always needed a player to triple his assists (Oscar or magic) in order to win rings, or needed two teammates to double his assists. Kareem was a very untalented passer. Kobe was an extremely talented passer but choose to not use it as much as he could have.

Kobe led 5 title teams in assists, that didn't happen by accident or by him playing a ball-dominant style like Harden, he was an elite passer at his position, despite his tendency to take bad shots. Phil called Kobe the best player with an all-around court game that he ever coached, and this was in 2001. I took it as he had Jordan's ability as a SG to dominate scoring-wise, but also Pippen's ability to run the triangle. You saw glimpses of his playmaking ability under MDA, when he averaged 7+ assists a game once he transitioned into a point guard due to injuries and their offense under-performing when they tried running it through Nash.

He averaged 28.5 ppg (on 57.9%TS) with 7 assists a game post-ASB at age 34 and they also had a top 5 record in that stretch.

[Gus Hemmingway]

Kobe led 5 title teams in assists, that didn't happen by accident or by him playing a ball-dominant style like Harden, he was an elite passer at his position, despite his tendency to take bad shots. Phil called Kobe the best player with an all-around court game that he ever coached, and this was in 2001. I took it as he had Jordan's ability as a SG to dominate scoring-wise, but also Pippen's ability to run the triangle. You saw glimpses of his playmaking ability under MDA, when he averaged 7+ assists a game once he transitioned into a point guard due to injuries and their offense under-performing when they tried running it through Nash.

He averaged 28.5 ppg (on 57.9%TS) with 7 assists a game post-ASB at age 34 and they also had a top 5 record in that stretch.

Did he ever lead the league in assists?

[Roundball_Rock]

Phil called Kobe the best player with an all-around court game that he ever coached, and this was in 2001.

It is interesting to hear you care about what coaches say. Let's see if you stand by that "principle" after reading:


"He (Tex Winter) got frustrated with players at times--a Michael Jordan who he said couldn't pass the ball right, or Shaquille O'Neal who wouldn't take coaching very easily, or Kobe who over-penetrated or handle the ball too long so the offense didn't run right.

So, every star that I ever had on a team, except Scottie Pippen, basically he had trouble with parts of their game."

This is a beauty. Not only does Tex says Kobe wouldn't execute the offense correctly, he says the one player whose game he had no issue with was the player you hate the most behind LeBron. :lol

[BigKobeFan]

LeBron is better than both of them and MJ anyway.

STFU wheels

[ImKobe]

It is interesting to hear you care about what coaches say. Let's see if you stand by that "principle" after reading:



This is a beauty. Not only does Tex says Kobe wouldn't execute the offense correctly, he says the one player whose game he had no issue with was the player you hate the most behind LeBron. :lol

What? Phil himself sang Kobe's praises, and somehow Kobe was the leading playmaker on all 5 title teams, despite his inpetitude to run the offense. :(

Kobe's 6.1 assists a game in the '01 run is more than 5 out of 6 of Pippen's apg in his title runs, but Kobe was also scoring 29.4 points a game :applause: .

[tpols]

People rip on Kobe's passing but he's actually 2 or 3 times higher tier of a passer then Kareem ever was.

Kobe played point guard for five championships. Kareem always needed a player to triple his assists (Oscar or magic) in order to win rings, or needed two teammates to double his assists. Kareem was a very untalented passer. Kobe was an extremely talented passer but choose to not use it as much as he could have.

Kobe's passing highlights are insane.

He was ridiculously surgical and flashy with it at the same time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da9Rfz5P2aQ

People just forget because they see a selfish shot or two a game and think he cant pass as a result.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's Phil Jackson talking about Tex Winter's views, not Jackson's.


Phil himself sang Kobe's praises

Yup, he also sang praises of Pippen. I know, I know. His praise for Kobe and MJ counts; his praise of Pippen does not--that is the intellectual integrity being a MJ stain brings, evidently. Where does Shaq fall in this rubric? Is there a page in your 3ball bible on that? :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

That's Phil Jackson talking about Tex Winter's views, not Jackson's.



Yup, he also sang praises of Pippen. I know, I know. His praise for Kobe and MJ counts; his praise of Pippen does not--that is the intellectual integrity being a MJ stain brings, evidently. Where does Shaq fall in this rubric? Is there a page in your 3ball bible on that? :confusedshrug:

I'm not 3Ball, the only thing me & 3Ball have in common is that we agree on MJ being the GOAT. 3Ball consistently gets his numbers wrong and also slights Kobe on his numbers, get your head out of your ass.