How would Jordan's legacy be perceived if his finals record was reversed.

[coastalmarker99]

In this what-if, Jordan and the bulls instead of winning 6 rings throughout the 1990s lose all of their final appearances becoming the Nba version of the Buffalo Bills.



My question is how would this change Jordan's legacy and also how would this change the way we view the Legacies of the stars that fell victim to Jordan and the Bulls in the finals?


New Finals records of stars throughout the 1990s in this what-if which players legacy do you think benefits the most with these new finals records.

Jordan 0-6
Pippen 0-6
Karl Malone 2-0
John Stockton 2-0
Magic Johnson 6-3
Charles Barkley 1-0
Clyde Drexler 2-0
Gary Payton 1-0

[light]

Jordan was being touted as GOAT by many even before he won, so if he went to 6 finals he would definitely still have his supporters even after losses.

The 90s Bills are an interesting example because they're respected as an all time great team for going to 4 consecutive superb owls even though they never won. The NFL ranked them the 35th greatest team ever. Now imagine if that Bill's team instead went to 8 consecutive superb owls and won 4 times. They'd probably be considered GOATs.

[Gus Hemmingway]

You mean if he never played with Pippen?

[Axe]

He'd probably still be inducted into the HOF if that were the case but not in Mount Rushmore.

[coastalmarker99]

Jordan was being touted as GOAT by many even before he won, so if he went to 6 finals he would definitely still have his supporters even after losses.

The 90s Bills are an interesting example because they're respected as an all time great team for going to 4 consecutive superb owls even though they never won. The NFL ranked them the 35th greatest team ever. Now imagine if that Bill's team instead went to 8 consecutive superb owls and won 4 times. They'd probably be considered GOATs.


Indeed they would be as going to the Superbowl 8 straight times is a lot more impressive in my eyes then it would be in the Nba as the Nfl is one-game elimination, therefore, flukes and stuff can happen unlike the Nba as most of the time with a 7 game series the better team wins.

[SouBeachTalents]

He'd probably still be inducted into the HOF if that were the case
That's a bold statement

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He'd probably still be inducted into the HOF if that were the case but not in Mount Rushmore.

Lmao He could've retire in 1990 and been inducted into the hall of fame unanimously twice-over

[Axe]

Lmao He could've retire in 1990 and been inducted into the hall of fame unanimously twice-over
Depends on how media worships him

[Roundball_Rock]

0 rings makes it interesting. Before MJ, you needed at least 1 ring (even a "sidekick" ring like Oscar) to be admitted into the GOAT conversation. So that would be a problem for him.

If MJ won 1 ring and went 1-5, nothing would change, other than he would have less stans today. The media so loved MJ they would just formulate another argument to call MJ the GOAT to fit whatever his resume was, provided he had at least 1 ring.

[Psileas]

0 rings makes it interesting. Before MJ, you needed at least 1 ring (even a "sidekick" ring like Oscar) to be admitted into the GOAT conversation. So that would be a problem for him.

If MJ won 1 ring and went 1-5, nothing would change, other than he would have less stans today. The media so loved MJ they would just formulate another argument to call MJ the GOAT to fit whatever his resume was, provided he had at least 1 ring.

Exactly. The whole "6/6" or "6/6/6" thing has been just the media/fans trying to make an argument that sounds serious/authoritative enough to "seal the deal" on the GOAT debate, whereas we all know that Jordan had been touted the GOAT way before he got there, before retiring, before "having proven everything there is to prove", in general, before his time. Hell, people have been calling him the GOAT since his 1st ring, it's just that they insisted more on valuing players regarding their prime/peak value instead of career, but as long as Jordan's team accomplishments got serious enough, the goal posts were moved towards career-centered preferences. If Jordan goes 1/6, expect the media to still lick him non stop and change their narratives from "career accomplishments matter" to "only individual value matters" and, of course, most fans following suit. This would especially happen if this 1 won finals series was the 1991 one (his first series, and against Magic Johnson, clearly the greatest player he ever defeated in the Finals) or, in general, some title closer to the beginning or the end of his finals appearances instead of some middle one.

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly. The whole "6/6" or "6/6/6" thing has been just the media/fans trying to make an argument that sounds serious/authoritative enough to "seal the deal" on the GOAT debate, whereas we all know that Jordan had been touted the GOAT way before he got there, before retiring, before "having proven everything there is to prove", in general, before his time. Hell, people have been calling him the GOAT since his 1st ring, it's just that they insisted more on valuing players regarding their prime/peak value instead of career, but as long as Jordan's team accomplishments got serious enough, the goal posts were moved towards career-centered preferences. If Jordan goes 1/6, expect the media to still lick him non stop and change their narratives from "career accomplishments matter" to "only individual value matters" and, of course, most fans following suit. This would especially happen if this 1 won finals series was the 1991 one (his first series, and against Magic Johnson, clearly the greatest player he ever defeated in the Finals) or, in general, some title closer to the beginning or the end of his finals appearances instead of some middle one.

Good points. Yeah, people forget the media had him as consensus GOAT when he retired the first time. At that point he had 3 chips and 3 MVP's and he was getting some GOAT talk even before that.

6 rings became convenient because that pulled him past Magic. KAJ has 6 too, but he doesn't get credit for all of them (somehow Magic does, though :confusedshrug: ) and Russell doesn't exist so surpassing Magic was key. Since then Kobe, Duncan won 5 so 6 remained a magic #. We didn't hear anything about finals records until 2014, when overnight "2/5" became a meme and the media quickly picked it up.

"6-0" is a great hedge. LeBron may finish with 6+ rings. It is unlikely but possible. Who knows how many Luka, Giannis, or future players will finish with. At some point you would think a player will win 6+. Winning that many chips without losing a finals is almost impossible. You need so much to break your way to do it (e.g., the Bulls never had a 19' Warriors or 15' Cavs situation). To go to the finals 6, 7, 8 times and win every time is extremely unlikely, especially in the player movement era. If the Bulls existed in this era another super team would be formed to counter them. That didn't happen in the 90's. Orlando could have been that team via drafting Shaq and Penny (de facto draft--technically he was traded for Webber on draft day) but we know what happened there.

Good point on the narrative. If you were picking 1 chip, the one against the Lakers and Magic would be the best narrative wise (even though they were the only team not to take the Bulls to 6) because of Magic. I can see them hype any of the other chips, though, if that was the one he won. We know what would be said because we hear it for MJ fans for each of those other rings.

[Dagoods]

He'd be considered the greatest athlete never to win a title.

[Micku]

Exactly. The whole "6/6" or "6/6/6" thing has been just the media/fans trying to make an argument that sounds serious/authoritative enough to "seal the deal" on the GOAT debate, whereas we all know that Jordan had been touted the GOAT way before he got there, before retiring, before "having proven everything there is to prove", in general, before his time. Hell, people have been calling him the GOAT since his 1st ring, it's just that they insisted more on valuing players regarding their prime/peak value instead of career, but as long as Jordan's team accomplishments got serious enough, the goal posts were moved towards career-centered preferences. If Jordan goes 1/6, expect the media to still lick him non stop and change their narratives from "career accomplishments matter" to "only individual value matters" and, of course, most fans following suit. This would especially happen if this 1 won finals series was the 1991 one (his first series, and against Magic Johnson, clearly the greatest player he ever defeated in the Finals) or, in general, some title closer to the beginning or the end of his finals appearances instead of some middle one.

You're right about that. MJ had the GOAT talks before he even won a title. By time his 3rd chip, he was considered to be the goat. I think the video was taken down, but I wish I would have the video where they did a news report saying how Magic, Bird, Wilt and Russell had more help than MJ. They played with more HOFs, but MJ still won the chips anyway. Something like that. The media was crazy over MJ. Still crazy over him.

Before he won a title, he still had a stigma that even though he is the goat individual player, he wasn't the best team player. When he finally won tho, then it was crazy. It was the best of both worlds.

If he would never win, then I think they say he is the undisputed best player to never win a chip. Magic would probably consider to be better than him. Not the better individual player, but the better team player. So, the comparisons to him to current players wouldn't be based upon rings. If they did so.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think the video was taken down, but I wish I would have the video where they did a news report saying how Magic, Bird, Wilt and Russell had more help than MJ. They played with more HOFs, but MJ still won the chips anyway. Something like that. The media was crazy over MJ. Still crazy over him.

The funny part of that is 91' is the only time the Bulls won a finals or ECF against a team with equal or more HOF players (their 92', 93' Finals/ECF opponents combined had 3 HOF players). In the other 10 finals/ECF, the Bulls had the HOF edge every single time. Yet the narrative is MJ is "less help" than people on a team which had 3 HOF going against 5 or Wilt going up against 7-8 HOF with maybe half as many. :lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

Wouldn't be top 30 imo

Not winning with those incredibly stacked bulls teams, in the weakest era ever, would obviously tarnish him quite a bit.

He goes from the 9-12 range to the 30-55 range

[And1AllDay]

You mean if he never played with Pippen?

oh
my
goodnessssssssssssssss

:oldlol::oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

Wouldn't be top 30 imo

Not winning with those incredibly stacked bulls teams, in the weakest era ever, would obviously tarnish him quite a bit.

He goes from the 9-12 range to the 30-55 range

+1

at least bran lost to legit dynasties :oldlol:

mike losing to terry porterrrrrrrrrr LMFAO
mike losing to 36 year old stocktonnnnnnnn LMFAO
shit would be wild

it was a gimme ring