Only Two Top 50 All-time Players Never Finished Top 5 in MVP? (Stockton and Miller)

[Roundball_Rock]

I looked at the highest MVP finishes of the top 20-50 all-time players (using ESPN's list) since there is a lot of cherry picking about specific players who had the same finish, to identify what general trends there are for players at certain levels. I assumed every player higher than these guys all-time had finished top 3 at some point so I didn't look at them.

Two players are outliers, as they are the only players who never made the top 5--Stockton and Miller. Miller did not even crack the top 10 (his highest finish was 13th when he tied teammate Jalen Rose with one fifth place vote in 00').

KG: 1st
Pippen: 3rd
Baylor: 2nd
Barkley: 1st
Robinson: 1st
Kawhi: 2nd
Wade: 3rd
Giannis: 1st
Stockton: 7th
Iverson: 1st
Nash: 1st
Isiah: 5th
Harden: 1st
Havlicek: 4th
Mikan: N/A (award did not exist)
McHale: 4th
Ewing: 4th
Petit: 1st
Frazier: 4th
Paul: 2nd
Cousy: 1st
Westbrook: 1st
Barry: 2nd
Hayes: 3rd
Davis: 3rd
Wilkins: 2nd
Gervin: 2nd
Walton: 1st
Miller: 13th
Unseld: 1st

I compared Stockton to his PG contemporaries and he was at the bottom of the group.

Magic: 1st
Payton: 3rd
Penny: 3rd
T. Hardaway: 4th
Isiah: 5th
Stockton: 7th
Price: 7th
K. Johnson: 7th

Tim Hardaway did it but Stockton couldn't? :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

Reggie isn't a top 50 player of all time. lol

[Shooter]

Meanwhile Pip is scooping up top 3 and top 5 :lol

[Bronbron23]

I looked at the highest MVP finishes of the top 20-50 all-time players (using ESPN's list) since there is a lot of cherry picking about specific players who had the same finish, to identify what general trends there are for players at certain levels. I assumed every player higher than these guys all-time had finished top 3 at some point so I didn't look at them.

Two players are outliers, as they are the only players who never made the top 5--Stockton and Miller. Miller did not even crack the top 10 (his highest finish was 13th when he tied teammate Jalen Rose with one fifth place vote in 00').

KG: 1st
Pippen: 3rd
Baylor: 2nd
Barkley: 1st
Robinson: 1st
Kawhi: 2nd
Wade: 3rd
Giannis: 1st
Stockton: 7th
Iverson: 1st
Nash: 1st
Isiah: 5th
Harden: 1st
Havlicek: 4th
Mikan: N/A (award did not exist)
McHale: 4th
Ewing: 4th
Petit: 1st
Frazier: 4th
Paul: 2nd
Cousy: 1st
Westbrook: 1st
Barry: 2nd
Hayes: 3rd
Davis: 3rd
Wilkins: 2nd
Gervin: 2nd
Walton: 1st
Miller: 13th
Unseld: 1st

I compared Stockton to his PG contemporaries and he was at the bottom of the group.

Magic: 1st
Payton: 3rd
Penny: 3rd
T. Hardaway: 4th
Isiah: 5th
Stockton: 7th
Price: 7th
K. Johnson: 7th

Tim Hardaway did it but Stockton couldn't? :confusedshrug:

Ok So whats the point?

[dankok8]

It was a loaded era. And yea not sure Reggie is still top 50...

[Shooter]

Ok So whats the point?

Reggie Miller was a #1 option on a team that took MJ to 7 games but MJ's own #2 option was better than his most challenging team's #1 option.

WEAK ERA

[Overdrive]

Reggie Miller was a #1 option on a team that took MJ to 7 games but MJ's own #2 option was better than his most challenging team's #1 option.

WEAK ERA

Yeah and Kyrie played better than a 73 win team's first option so what's your point exactly aside from the Pacers being a balanced team not a topheavy one?

They were more like the 14 Spurs than the 11 Mavs. Their star was on the same level as 3 other players.


And yes, Miller shouldn't be in the top50 discussion. He gets overglorified for playoff moments. Not even runs - moments..

[light]

Reggie is ranked way too high. 49th??? lol no.

[Shooter]

Yeah and Kyrie played better than a 73 win team's first option so what's your point exactly aside from the Pacers being a balanced team not a topheavy one?

They were more like the 14 Spurs than the 11 Mavs. Their star was on the same level as 3 other players.


And yes, Miller shouldn't be in the top50 discussion. He gets overglorified for playoff moments. Not even runs - moments..

What's my point? This is obvious at this point. Reggie Miller was the #1 option on a team that took MJ to 7 games but MJ's own #2 option was better than his most challenging team's #1 option.

WEAK ERA

[Kblaze8855]

With Reggie Not having made it in 96 and having to add Kobe, Tim Duncan, KG, Dirk, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Steph, Nash, Kidd, Paul, Leonard, and Harden even while ignoring guys with limited runs like Giannis, Anthony Davis, Tmac, Lillard, and plenty of random guys who are like 10-12 time all stars and all NBA like Gary Payton, AI, Ray Allen, Pierce and so on.....then consider the young guys like Luka and Jokic who are building careers?

Reggie probably wouldnt make an NBA at 75 list. I guess we will find out next year though. They wont remove anyone but they will probably find a way to sneak him in off name recognition.

[Overdrive]

What's my point? This is obvious at this point. Reggie Miller was the #1 option on a team that took MJ to 7 games but MJ's own #2 option was better than his most challenging team's #1 option.

WEAK ERA

Kyrie the cancer played better than Curry on Lebron's greatest chip. Weak era.

[8Ball]

Reggie is worst than klay Thomson and Paul George.

[Shooter]

Reggie is worst than klay Thomson and Paul George.

100% picking Klay over Reggie. Klay plays defense.

[Shooter]

Kyrie the cancer played better than Curry on Lebron's greatest chip. Weak era.

One series versus a career :lol
#TryAgain

Curry's Career > Kyrie's
Scottie's Career > Reggie

Care to disagree?

[Reggie43]

Not even runs - moments..

He has had playoff runs to the Conference Finals/Finals where he averaged around 24-25 points per game and helped lead his team to wins over MVP caliber players like Shaq, Ewing, Iverson etc. Is not that a good enough "run" compared to his peers?

[Roundball_Rock]

It was a loaded era. And yea not sure Reggie is still top 50...

I can see him top 50 but it is tough. More like top 60 because his longevity was great but as the data in the OP hints at, he had no meaningful peak. He was just a borderline all-star forever.


They were more like the 14 Spurs than the 11 Mavs. Their star was on the same level as 3 other players.

That is selling Miller short. He clearly was their best player, their only HOF level player (Mullin is in the HOF but he was their 5th best player by that point in his career as injuries ruined him), and only multiple time all-star among players in their primes (again excluding the Mullin anomaly). Smits, Jackson, D. Davis, A. Davis were all 1x all-stars .

He just wasn't what he is made out to be as a mega superstar, Curry-like offensive force, etc. He would score 20-21, Smits 16-17, etc. It was a balanced scoring attack.


Reggie probably wouldnt make an NBA at 75 list. I guess we will find out next year though. They wont remove anyone but they will probably find a way to sneak him in off name recognition.

I think he still does but it will be close. There is something to be said about his longevity.


Reggie is worst than klay Thomson and Paul George.

As a player or all-time? As a player I would agree (Klay's D gives him the edge and PG had a peak Miller or Klay never reached) but all-time Miller is ahead of both IMO although when the other two retire they will be ahead of him.

[Bronbron23]

Reggie Miller was a #1 option on a team that took MJ to 7 games but MJ's own #2 option was better than his most challenging team's #1 option.

WEAK ERA

Sounds alot like brons last chip except ad is waaaay better than the heats first option. And at least reggie was a top 50. Butler's not even a top 100:facepalm


WEAKEST ERA

[MadDog]

Damn, these two were never Top 5 in MVP votes? The 90s were loaded, stocked and barreled :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn, these two were never Top 5 in MVP votes? The 90s were loaded, stocked and barreled :applause:

In terms of individual talent? Sure. Look at that list.

KG: 1st
Pippen: 3rd
Baylor: 2nd
Barkley: 1st
Robinson: 1st
Kawhi: 2nd
Wade: 3rd
Giannis: 1st
Stockton: 7th
Iverson: 1st
Nash: 1st
Isiah: 5th
Harden: 1st
Havlicek: 4th
Mikan: N/A (award did not exist)
McHale: 4th
Ewing: 4th
Petit: 1st
Frazier: 4th
Paul: 2nd
Cousy: 1st
Westbrook: 1st
Barry: 2nd
Hayes: 3rd
Davis: 3rd
Wilkins: 2nd
Gervin: 2nd
Walton: 1st
Miller: 13th
Unseld: 1st

The bolded all played in the 90's, most of them having their primes in the 90's.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah I would say Reggie is on the level of a player like Jimmy Butler but Jimmy is clearly the superior overall player due to ball handling, playmaking, defense and better athlete as well.

Jimmy Butler > Reggie Miller
Embiid > Rik Smits
Ben Simmons > Mark Jackson

[Roundball_Rock]

Butler basically does everything better than Miller, except shoot.

Here are their accolades through age 30 (accolades give us a sense of them within their eras):

Butler: 3x all-NBA, 5x all-star, 4x all-D, 1x top 10 MVP
Miller: 2x all-NBA, 3x all-star, 0x all-D, 0x top 10 MVP

Granted, Butler's "top 10" was 10th place, but according to some on ISH if you get any MVP votes that makes you a "MVP candidate." :lol For all-NBA, neither ever made more than the third team.

The margins aren't big but Butler is ahead across the board. The thing is Butler easily could finish with something like 5-6 all-NBA teams and 7-8 all-star selections. If so, that would be more than Miller's 3 all-NBA and 5 all-star appearances. If Butler does so and has decent longevity he should surpass Miller all-time.

[tpols]

It's hilarious that a guy like Scottie Pippen is ranked top ~25, but Reggie isn't top 75?

That's just a joke. Reggie led perennial playoff teams every year for a decade plus. He was basically '94 Scottie level success but for 10x the length of time.

Give Miller Michael Jordan, and give Scottie Rik Smits and the results championship wise would be completely reversed.

[ImKobe]

It's hilarious that a guy like Scottie Pippen is ranked top ~25, but Reggie isn't top 75?

That's just a joke. Reggie led perennial playoff teams every year for a decade plus. He was basically '94 Scottie level success but for 10x the length of time.

Give Miller Michael Jordan, and give Scottie Rik Smits and the results championship wise would be completely reversed.

Reggie gets heavily underrated. His 2000 run is better than anything Pippen did post-MJ. He had B2B 40-point games at age 34 in the '00 Playoffs with 41 in round 1 elimination, where he scored 18 points in the 4th quarter in a 1-point win. I know he had an all-time bad 1/16 shooting game in Game 1 of the Finals, but still averaged 24 ppg in the Finals with 27.8 ppg in the next 5 games of that series.

[tpols]

Reggie gets heavily underrated. His 2000 run is better than anything Pippen did post-MJ. He had B2B 40-point games at age 34 in the '00 Playoffs with 41 in round 1 elimination, where he scored 18 points in the 4th quarter in a 1-point win. I know he had an all-time bad 1/16 shooting game in Game 1 of the Finals, but still averaged 24 ppg in the Finals with 27.8 ppg in the next 5 games of that series.

Reggie owned Iverson in the playoffs... completely undeniable fact.

And we have lists here where Iverson is in the 30s-40s and Reggie is like double that. It is incredulous.

[SouBeachTalents]

Reggie owned Iverson in the playoffs... completely undeniable fact.

And we have lists here where Iverson is in the 30s-40s and Reggie is like double that. It is incredulous.
Iverson's resume absolutely SHITS on Reggie's, like it's not even close. And I say this as someone who would take Reggie on my team over Iverson. He blows him away in scoring titles, all-star games, All-NBA Teams, he was an MVP with multiple top 5-10 finishes while Reggie never even sniffed an MVP. Are you really that surprised Iverson typically ranks way ahead of Reggie?

[ImKobe]

Reggie owned Iverson in the playoffs... completely undeniable fact.

And we have lists here where Iverson is in the 30s-40s and Reggie is like double that. It is incredulous.

That's ridiculous. Reggie insipired the current 3-PT era and had a very long "prime", he averaged 18.9 ppg as late as 35 years old. He didn't peak quite as high most ATGs but he was incredibly consistent and had had some great Playoff runs w/ a Finals run to his name, where he likely goes 7 against the Lakers, if not for Kobe's Game 4 heroics, where Reggie himself had 35. He's definitely top 50 in my book still with the impact he had on the game.

And yeah, he outplayed AI a year before his MVP season and he was like 2 months from turning 35.

[tpols]

Iverson's resume absolutely SHITS on Reggie's, like it's not even close. And I say this as someone who would take Reggie on my team over Iverson. He blows him away in scoring titles, all-star games, All-NBA Teams, he was an MVP with multiple top 5-10 finishes while Reggie never even sniffed an MVP. Are you really that surprised Iverson typically ranks way ahead of Reggie?

Those are all volume awards and media accolades. Reggie used to put up 26 PPG to Iverson's 27 PPG on 8 less shots. lmao... Not only did Reggie shit on him H2H, individually.. in the playoffs, he was far more efficient, far more clutch, and had way better longevity. His teams won way more playoff games and neither played with any crazy help. Your whole argument isn't based on impact or reality, but rather media storylines and league profit seeking. AI was one of the most polarizing and exciting players ever. Reggie was simply WAY better at basketball.

[Manny98]

Reggie Miller is basically Klay Thompson with way worse defense so that doesn't surprise me

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie didn’t “used to” put up shit. A week and a half to two weeks of slightly elevated ppg while losing doesn’t say much compared to what Allen Iverson was doing for like a thousand games. The issue of AI or Reggie was settled a long time ago despite people who were 8 at the time and discovered irrelevant numbers 2 decades later think. It takes more to rewrite history than deciding you don’t like it.

[Kblaze8855]

Go on to the 20 minute mark and see who makes the unanimous list including the vote from Reggie himself who flatly says he shouldn’t be considered among those guys:


https://youtu.be/SJcGP0OzcsM



But of course it’s the fans holding AI in such high esteem....

[Reggie43]

Just the same that you cant rewrite history that Miller was 2-1 in the playoffs against Iverson and basically matched his average while being much more efficient and improving his average by a whopping 9 points per game against him.

It would be like telling people to forget what Hakeem did to Robinson in the playoffs because David has the edge in the regular season individually.

[tpols]

We have seen the playoff trilogy of Iverson vs Reggie. We have the numbers... we have the win loss records... we have the GOAT clutch moments. It's a landslide. I actually did watch this stuff as a kid and I remember the 2001 black sleeve Iverson being the talk of the town. The GOAT David. I actually liked him. You look back at it empirically as an adult? Reggie ****ing killed him. He outplayed him and he iced him. I've rewatched these series in my spare time. Reggie Miller killed Allen Iverson in the playoffs.

[Hey Yo]

We have seen the playoff trilogy of Iverson vs Reggie. We have the numbers... we have the win loss records... we have the GOAT clutch moments. It's a landslide. I actually did watch this stuff as a kid and I remember the 2001 black sleeve Iverson being the talk of the town. The GOAT David. I actually liked him. You look back at it empirically as an adult? Reggie ****ing killed him. He outplayed him and he iced him. I've rewatched these series in my spare time. Reggie Miller killed Allen Iverson in the playoffs.
Sounds like Howard Cosell.

[Kblaze8855]

Just the same that you cant rewrite history that Miller was 2-1 in the playoffs against Iverson and basically matched his average while being much more efficient and improving his average by a whopping 9 points per game against him.

It would be like telling people to forget what Hakeem did to Robinson in the playoffs because David has the edge in the regular season individually.

Why would that need to be rewritten? The entire earth saw it and ranked AI over Reggie anyway because the stupid arguments used by people online don’t matter to real basketball evaluation.

Shit like this:




We have seen the playoff trilogy of Iverson vs Reggie. We have the numbers... we have the win loss records... we have the GOAT clutch moments. It's a landslide.


Isnt an evaluation of two basketball players ability. It’s the end result of a generation of hot take media personalities who don’t have time to honestly evaluate the game between commercial breaks turning sports fans into cliche spitting know nothing trolls.

The rewriting on this one would have to come from the Reggie side because all evaluation from the time had him a tier or two below the people children from then want to shoehorn him into talks with now.

Actual history....Reggie vs Hersey Hawkins or Kenny Anderson was a reasonable discussion that wouldn’t go 100% in Reggies favor in the early 90s when Reggie was peaking. Revised history...is Reggie was on the same tier as MVPs. I don’t need revision. I’m working off the record.

Your end needs the white out. I’m taking the world exactly as it was.

And for the record...I know you yourself actually have Reggie ranked more reasonably than some on that side. Which is funny to me because you...like me...know his game inside and out. And people who don’t basically tell you they know better. They just don’t realize it because I guess they ignore your actual rankings in favor of quoting you on their side while reaching the same basic conclusion I do.

[And1AllDay]

Sounds alot like brons last chip except ad is waaaay better than the heats first option. And at least reggie was a top 50. Butler's not even a top 100:facepalm


WEAKEST ERA

damn i heard butler out scored 5 of 6 mj #1 options in the finals :oldlol: is this tru

[Bronbron23]

damn i heard butler out scored 5 of 6 mj #1 options in the finals :oldlol: is this tru

Imagine thinking a borderline all star playing like a goat actually helps your argument. I guess mj and the bulls should of played worse defense:facepalm

[kawhileonard2]

Jason Terry outplayed Lebron and he never was top 20 MVP candidate. Also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics and some dude from Greece in FIBA outplayed Lebron.

[And1AllDay]

Imagine thinking a borderline all star playing like a goat actually helps your argument. I guess mj and the bulls should of played worse defense:facepalm

yeah thats what it was :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

Jason Terry outplayed Lebron and he never was top 20 MVP candidate. Also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics and some dude from Greece in FIBA outplayed Lebron.

https://i.postimg.cc/3R6TqRpG/LBJowns-Jason-Terry.jpg

oh :(

[Reggie43]

Why would that need to be rewritten? The entire earth saw it and ranked AI over Reggie anyway because the stupid arguments used by people online don’t matter to real basketball evaluation.

Shit like this:






Isnt an evaluation of two basketball players ability. It’s the end result of a generation of hot take media personalities who don’t have time to honestly evaluate the game between commercial breaks turning sports fans into cliche spitting know nothing trolls.

The rewriting on this one would have to come from the Reggie side because all evaluation from the time had him a tier or two below the people children from then want to shoehorn him into talks with now.

Actual history....Reggie vs Hersey Hawkins or Kenny Anderson was a reasonable discussion that wouldn’t go 100% in Reggies favor in the early 90s when Reggie was peaking. Revised history...is Reggie was on the same tier as MVPs. I don’t need revision. I’m working off the record.

Your end needs the white out. I’m taking the world exactly as it was.

And for the record...I know you yourself actually have Reggie ranked more reasonably than some on that side. Which is funny to me because you...like me...know his game inside and out. And people who don’t basically tell you they know better. They just don’t realize it because I guess they ignore your actual rankings in favor of quoting you on their side while reaching the same basic conclusion I do.

The "slightly elevated ppg" jab just gets me a bit lol. Against Ewing/Knicks in the regular season he gets his normal 18 a game and then bumps it up in the playoffs to 24 a game on higher percentages across six playoff series of Knicks and Pacers where they are tied 3-3. Same with the aforementioned Ai where he goes from 17 to 26ppg again on better percentages while matching him point per point.

I dont really care how he is ranked because people value skill and versatility more as opposed to his type of effectivity, efficiency, adaptability, leadership, mental toughness and other intangibles. If you told me Eddie Jones is much more skilled player than Miller then you wont be technically wrong but nobody in his right mind thinks that Eddie Jones could lead a franchise to a Finals trip and 5 conference finals trips as the best player on his team.

Lastly they are barely any Miller fans out here so im sure you could tolerate a few more who overrate his game because im pretty sure they are a ton worse trolls on ish.

[kawhileonard2]

https://i.postimg.cc/3R6TqRpG/LBJowns-Jason-Terry.jpg

oh :(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4nQlShRLbE

[And1AllDay]

imagine putting miller over iverson

:roll: daaaaaaaaaaaaaamn yall dumb fr


ai was goat pound for pound and mvp winner

miller was a piece of sh1t :oldlol:


next

[And1AllDay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4nQlShRLbE

i think we know wassup bb boi :oldlol:

https://i.postimg.cc/gk27hdZF/Pls-My-King.png

ask the man himself :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

The "slightly elevated ppg" jab just gets me a bit lol. Against Ewing/Knicks in the regular season he gets his normal 18 a game and then bumps it up in the playoffs to 24 a game on higher percentages across six playoff series of Knicks and Pacers where they are tied 3-3. Same with the aforementioned Ai where he goes from 17 to 26ppg again on better percentages while matching him point per point.

I dont really care how he is ranked because people value skill and versatility more as opposed to his type of effectivity, efficiency, adaptability, leadership, mental toughness and other intangibles. If you told me Eddie Jones is much more skilled player than Miller then you wont be technically wrong but nobody in his right mind thinks that Eddie Jones could lead a franchise to a Finals trip and 5 conference finals trips as the best player on his team.

Lastly they are barely any Miller fans out here so im sure you could tolerate a few more who overrate his game because im pretty sure they are a ton worse trolls on ish.


Slightly elevated feels right to me. For one...he wasnt as low as 18ppg till he was 33(not counting his pre breakout and bench years). We are talking about maybe 20-21 a game to 24. And considering he averaged more minutes....what are we talking about? Even putting aside that the 23.whatever per game isnt like....a lot for someone who can only contribute that way....

He only hit as much as 24ppg in 2 playoffs that werent a first round loss. In what....19 years? And people wanna act like it was generally to be expected from him. We are mostly talking brief series with huge minutes to skew the ppg that didnt matter. 7 first round losses playing 42, 39, 43, 44, 31(year he was hurt vs Atlanta), 44, and 40 minutes a game. He goes and plays 41, 43, 40, and 51 minutes as they get dealt with easily....2 blowouts. So 30 years later we throw that first round loss of stats that mean absolutely nothing into a pool and talk about a 24ppg average over ___ years most of which were similar?


But we watch guys score 27-30 a game in a series they get destroyed every year and label the all time great players losers and maybe throw some "He put up a good fight" head nods at guys like Donovan or CJ Mccollum(who by the way has put up 23, 25, 25, and 23 a game the last 4 playoffs including taking Denver apart).

People dont get excited about 23-24ppg out of guys who dont do anything else. But somehow when its Reggie it gets brought up like its some kinda discussion ending point.

Given almost 20 years Reggie had 2 deep runs hitting 24 a game. I just dont know how much talk that really justifies.

He gets more love than people who took their teams to titles over some good but not amazing scoring totals while losing. Just a weird situation.

Have you generally known people to make a big deal out of like....23/3/2 in any situation?

If Tyler Herro did that we would post "Rook had a nice series. Look out for him" or something not start talking about him like hes better than MVPs over shooting percentages that mean exactly nothing on a scoreboard.

[L.Kizzle]

When did Reggie Miller become a top 50 player of All-Time? He wasn't a top 50 player 25 years ago, so obviously with more players available, he doesn't become one.

Doing some math, if Reggie is a Top 50 Player in 2020 (they had him listed at 49) than in 1996, he was basically a top 30 player all-time. That's what ESPN is saying.

Since the original 50 player list was announced, he only made two more All-Star games since (98, 2000), a NBA Finals appearance and no All-NBA Teams.

[And1AllDay]

When did Reggie Miller become a top 50 player of All-Time? He wasn't a top 50 player 25 years ago, so obviously with more players available, he doesn't become one.

Doing some math, if Reggie is a Top 50 Player in 2020 (they had him listed at 49) than in 1996, he was basically a top 30 player all-time. That's what ESPN is saying.

Since the original 50 player list was announced, he only made two more All-Star games since (98, 2000), a NBA Finals appearance and no All-NBA Teams.

like king blaze said

milller prolly aint top 75

kd body
dumb teeth
no defense
zero 25 ppg seasons

if miller is a top 50 player then 90s is 10000000000000000000000% weakest sh1t era of all time

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I think the way the league has evolved has shifted perceptions about Miller. Him being a great three-point shooter and off-ball player. How do you guys feel about that? Is that legitimate or should opinions about him be set in etched in stone from the time he was playing?

[And1AllDay]

I think the way the league has evolved has shifted perceptions about Miller. Him being a great three-point shooter and off-ball player. How do you guys feel about that? Is that legitimate or should opinions about him be set in etched in stone from the time he was playing?

hes klay if he didnt know how to play defense and had dumb teeth
so basically duncan robonsin

[Reggie43]

24 ppg on a grit and grind team that was always at the bottom in terms of pace in a defensive minded era is pretty decent so you really cant compare his numbers back then to modern era guys.

Plus those Pacers were an equal opportunity type team wherein nobody dominated the ball and everyone got touches.

Him being more popular to oldschool players who achieved more is pretty obvious and i think it was discussed previously.

[And1AllDay]

24 ppg on a grit and grind team that was always at the bottom in terms of pace in a defensive minded era is pretty decent so you really cant compare his numbers back then to modern era guys.

Plus those Pacers were an equal opportunity type team wherein nobody dominated the ball and everyone got touches.

Him being more popular to oldschool players who achieved more is pretty obvious and i think it was discussed previously.

bruh they just hype him so people don't make fun of their own era ya dig?

its like hyping up spencer dinwiddie in modern era

[Reggie43]

And why shouldnt we count first round playoff losses? Dropping 31ppg on 53fg% and 53%3p shooting on the best defensive team in the league (93 Knicks) is still pretty impressive regardless of the result.

[And1AllDay]

And why shouldnt we count first round playoff losses? Dropping 31ppg on 53fg% and 53%3p shooting on the best defensive team in the league (93 Knicks) is still pretty impressive regardless of the result.

thats a low bar thats like mike 1-9 low careful territory

[Reggie43]

thats a low bar thats like mike 1-9 low careful territory

93 Knicks were the same defense that held Jordan to 40%fg for his 32 ppg while Pippen played great.

Just a tidbit but I still go with the consensus on who the Goat is lol.

[And1AllDay]

93 Knicks were the same defense that held Jordan to 40%fg for his 32 ppg while Pippen played great.

Just a tidbit but I still go with the consensus on who the Goat is lol.

fair enough :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

24 ppg on a grit and grind team that was always at the bottom in terms of pace in a defensive minded era is pretty decent so you really cant compare his numbers back then to modern era guys.

Plus those Pacers were an equal opportunity type team wherein nobody dominated the ball and everyone got touches.

Him being more popular to oldschool players who achieved more is pretty obvious and i think it was discussed previously.


I dont need to compare him to modern guys. You have seen me on the record many times saying Reggie might be MVP level effective with todays rules and style of play. But then or now....people were not blown away by the 23-24 points Reggie backers seem to want to make out to be incredible. Everyone watched it then....and didnt care. You were there. You watched us all watch it and not care. There is a higher bar for guys known as scorers. Guys who arent expected to contribute much else?

When they score in the low 20s the world doesnt exactly double take. Nobody gives a shit about Kiki doing like 25 a game on great shooting for half a decade of playoffs. He couldnt do shit else.

For guys there to score? People who have done literally nothing else you remember but score? Those 22-24 a game runs arent exactly shocking.

[Kblaze8855]

And why shouldnt we count first round playoff losses? Dropping 31ppg on 53fg% and 53%3p shooting on the best defensive team in the league (93 Knicks) is still pretty impressive regardless of the result.

Who said not to count it?

Count it all.

It just doesnt really matter. Not as a base of a "Look how great _____ was in the playoffs" argument half of which is about winning. Using the averages from a huge number of 3-4 game "runs" bumps up the ppg....using the winning years bumps up the playoff accomplishments you all like to cite. Neither gives an accurate idea of what one could reasonably expect from Reggie. If you go in expecting 24ppg and a deep playoff run you get it exactly 2 times in 19 years.

Not really the norm.

[Reggie43]

Who said not to count it?

Count it all.

It just doesnt really matter. Not as a base of a "Look how great _____ was in the playoffs" argument half of which is about winning. Using the averages from a huge number of 3-4 game "runs" bumps up the ppg....using the winning years bumps up the playoff accomplishments you all like to cite. Neither gives an accurate idea of what one could reasonably expect from Reggie. If you go in expecting 24ppg and a deep playoff run you get it exactly 2 times in 19 years.

Not really the norm.

What you would expect from Reggie is helping lead his team to several Conference Finals trips regardless of what he averages. I dont see players placed in the same tier having that kind of resume as the best player on his team. Being constantly seen in the playoffs those years is what helped his popularity compared to his peers.

[Kblaze8855]

What you would expect from Reggie is helping lead his team to several Conference Finals trips regardless of what he averages. I dont see players placed in the same tier having that kind of resume as the best player on his team. Being constantly seen in the playoffs those years is what helped his popularity compared to his peers.

More talk which means exactly nothing on a basketball court but everything on a first take segment. There are better players than Reggie one could argue were never even their teams best player. Several title teams didnt have anyone on them better than some guys who never took a team past the first round. Hell Reggie Miller was never a better basketball player than Luka who has accomplished almost nothing(even though Luka would not look like he does now playing in the 90s).

There is an impossible to ignore disconnect between best career and best player.

What Manu did as a best player(nothing in the NBA) doesnt change that hes a better ball handler, passer, slasher, and defender who while a worse shooter was a better option to go create a shot.

Talking basketball is one thing. Talking subjective best player only accomplishments that disregard the contributions of the rest of the team to give credit to a single individual is quite another. Especially when that individual isnt a jack of all trades type who makes the team go on both ends.....nor does he contribute something crazy on the end he does excel on.

There have been players who did so much you might place them above the team as a whole. Reggie isnt one of them. few are.

[iamgine]

I feel like we saw Reggie like we see Donovan Mitchell in the Jazz today. No one would mistake him for MVP or all nba. But he did step up in the playoff. People don't care about Utah though so that's not helping.

Lone star, small market team, good big and a decent team around him. The similarities are endless.

[Reggie43]

More talk which means exactly nothing on a basketball court but everything on a first take segment. There are better players than Reggie one could argue were never even their teams best player. Several title teams didnt have anyone on them better than some guys who never took a team past the first round. Hell Reggie Miller was never a better basketball player than Luka who has accomplished almost nothing(even though Luka would not look like he does now playing in the 90s).

There is an impossible to ignore disconnect between best career and best player.

What Manu did as a best player(nothing in the NBA) doesnt change that hes a better ball handler, passer, slasher, and defender who while a worse shooter was a better option to go create a shot.

Talking basketball is one thing. Talking subjective best player only accomplishments that disregard the contributions of the rest of the team to give credit to a single individual is quite another. Especially when that individual isnt a jack of all trades type who makes the team go on both ends.....nor does he contribute something crazy on the end he does excel on.

There have been players who did so much you might place them above the team as a whole. Reggie isnt one of them. few are.

You do realize some of his intangibles hugely affect the things that happen on a basketball court that you dont account for? Being mentally tougher than the other guy, being adaptable to whoever he plays with, being clutch in the right moments, being very coachable and a franchise first player.

I recently rewatched some games of their 94 series with the Knicks and he was talking trash back and forth with the Knicks guards which were annoyed by his type of physicality but in one of the succeeding games they wont even talk to him regardless of what he says which he then proceeds to talk trash with Spike Lee. That type of mental edge is his advantage among his peers/players placed on the same tier which some guys refuse to accept. Hersey Hawkins doesnt have the same capacity despite being similarly tiered players at their peaks. Getting his matchup and the other team triggered by his antics and type of physicality is probably one of his greatest strengths.

[Kblaze8855]

Im sure you were blown away by the mental strength of chirping at people and sideline celebrities while losing. Its nice to see. Makes for a great ESPN special. Know what may have been more useful?

Being able to dribble well enough so a journeyman point wasnt stuck being hand checked at the top of the key waiting for plays to develop that never did.

Also useful? Either going after Starks after that drive that ended in the famous Ewing tip dunk to give them the late lead.....or...switching onto Ewing to box out who was instead free to walk into the lane and dunk it back uncontested because Reggie was literally standing around doing nothing after he lost Starks and Davis(Ewings man) had to switch onto Starks to defend the drive.


All that black magic, tough talk, clutch assassin "Hes got the fiiiiiiire down beloooooooooow!" shit matters a lot less than playing the total game of basketball well even if fans dont wanna talk about anything but highlights.

Larry Bird...Jordan...Russell....their passion matters because of their impact on basketball games to back it up.

Talking loud while not having the required ability?

That....matters less.

[Reggie43]

Im sure you were blown away by the mental strength of chirping at people and sideline celebrities while losing. Its nice to see. Makes for a great ESPN special. Know what may have been more useful?

Being able to dribble well enough so a journeyman point wasnt stuck being hand checked at the top of the key waiting for plays to develop that never did.

Also useful? Either going after Starks after that drive that ended in the famous Ewing tip dunk to give them the late lead.....or...switching onto Ewing to box out who was instead free to walk into the lane and dunk it back uncontested because Reggie was literally standing around doing nothing after he lost Starks and Davis(Ewings man) had to switch onto Starks to defend the drive.


All that black magic, tough talk, clutch assassin "Hes got the fiiiiiiire down beloooooooooow!" shit matters a lot less than playing the total game of basketball well even if fans dont wanna talk about anything but highlights.

Larry Bird...Jordan...Russell....their passion matters because of their impact on basketball games to back it up.

Talking loud while not having the required ability?

That....matters less.

Would it matter if I told you they won the next year against the Knicks and he played slightly better?

Our discussions boils down to you comparing him to MVP caliber level players to put him down while I go on mentioning about him compared to players on the same tier aka the Rays, Klays, Richmonds, Jones, Hawkins etc.

[tpols]

I feel like we saw Reggie like we see Donovan Mitchell in the Jazz today. No one would mistake him for MVP or all nba. But he did step up in the playoff. People don't care about Utah though so that's not helping.

Lone star, small market team, good big and a decent team around him. The similarities are endless.

yea.... if donovan mitchell did it for 12+ years lol... he's generally sucked in the playoffs. huge negative differentials. Very little players had reggie's general marksmanship. From anywhere... any angle... mid long or short... whatever. Miller was GOAT shooting scoring and decoy for others. Mitchell is a stock guard in an easy guard era. Reggie was gangster for real.

:pimp:

[Kblaze8855]

Would it matter if I told you they won the next year against the Knicks and he played slightly better?

Our discussions boils down to you comparing him to MVP caliber level players to put him down while I go on mentioning about him compared to players on the same tier aka the Rays, Klays, Richmonds, Jones, Hawkins etc.

Why would it matter? Im well aware of the 95 playoffs. And he didnt play better...Rik Smits played better. I talked about 94 because you did.

And I came in here reading a comparison between he and an MVP. I reply to what I see. The poster directly above me who doesnt know Reggie half as well as you or I is about to do it again.

[tpols]

Why would it matter? Im well aware of the 95 playoffs. And he didnt play better...Rik Smits played better. I talked about 94 because you did.

And I came in here reading a comparison between he and an MVP. I reply to what I see. The poster directly above me who doesnt know Reggie half as well as you or I is about to do it again.

You know damn well your reggie miller hating ass wouldn't have lasted a second past if he had had more than rik smits for a stretch...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FeminineSadCopperbutterfly-small.gif

[Kblaze8855]

I feel like you need to try wording that again.

And my opinion of Reggie is higher than the people at the time. Players....coaches....fans. All ranked him behind people you(with absolutely no knowledge of them) would laugh at.

I stayed the same. Its the people born in 1995 talking about 1990-02 creating the world they wanted to exist.

[tpols]

it's reality.

iverson over reggie is politics and money. as usual as hov would say.

[Reggie43]

And I came in here reading a comparison between he and an MVP. I reply to what I see. The poster directly above me who doesnt know Reggie half as well as you or I is about to do it again.

That is one guy but I do get why you hate that type of stuff. Would love to have other posters discuss other oldschool players more and not your typical tiring ish threads.

[Kblaze8855]

That is one guy but I do get why you hate that type of stuff. Would love to have other posters discuss other oldschool players more and not your typical tiring ish threads.

Trolls have scared too many away.

So instead of people with any real information we get:


iverson over reggie is politics and money. as usual as hov would say.

From people who wouldnt have been old enough to bother taking to games I saw Reggie Miller play in person. Like....I was at this game:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199603030IND.html


And have someone telling me that due to some shit they read....

Know what?

I think it would bug me less if I werent that guy at one point. I argued in the 80s with my uncle and his friend(who was actually IN THE NBA on the Blazers and Pacers) about how good Baylor and Elvin Hayes were. How Doctor J wasnt that good because I only knew short hair Doc. I had almanacs and numbers and all and im sure they just wanted to slap the shit outta me.

Im embarrassed in retrospect. Maybe I deserve these various early 20s telling me "Dat ***** Melo too cold for them 90s ******".

I legit thought Doctor J was like a poor mans James Worthy from what I could see at one point.

[Kblaze8855]

This guy here:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mayescl01.html



Didnt have much of a career but he made it and played a lot of greats in the summers in Chicago and elsewhere.

I looked that man in the eye....and told him how good Elvin Hayes was because of whatever numbers I had at the time.

He guarded Elvin Hayes in the 70s. I saw Elvin Hayes on the Rockets.

I wanna put young me in the scorpion deathlock right now just for my insolence.

I saw him yeeeeeeeeeears later and I never got around to saying sorry for being a snot nosed idiot.

[And1AllDay]

This guy here:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mayescl01.html



Didnt have much of a career but he made it and played a lot of greats in the summers in Chicago and elsewhere.

I looked that man in the eye....and told him how good Elvin Hayes was because of whatever numbers I had at the time.

He guarded Elvin Hayes in the 70s. I saw Elvin Hayes on the Rockets.

I wanna put young me in the scorpion deathlock right now just for my insolence.

I saw him yeeeeeeeeeears later and I never got around to saying sorry for being a snot nosed idiot.

nice story :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

Miller getting compared to AI. :facepalm


Reggie didn’t “used to” put up shit. A week and a half to two weeks of slightly elevated ppg while losing doesn’t say much compared to what Allen Iverson was doing for like a thousand games.

This keeps coming up in various threads with various players. An all-star can "punch above his weight" for a short period of time and look like a superstar, a good starter can play like an all-star in spurts, a bench player like a starter, etc. What separates them from the tier ahead if the lack of consistent, sustained performance at that higher level.


We have seen the playoff trilogy of Iverson vs Reggie.

Put Iverson on the 98' Pacers and Miller on the 01' Sixers. That is the difference between the two players...


Imagine thinking a borderline all star playing like a goat actually helps your argument. I guess mj and the bulls should of played worse defense

Separate discussion but we need to at some point have some definitions. MJ stans will vastly inflate players with from the 90's versus players in this era with similar resumes.


He only hit as much as 24ppg in 2 playoffs that werent a first round loss. In what....19 years?

One which came with the shorter 3 point line--which Miller benefitted from more than anyone else from that era.


People dont get excited about 23-24ppg out of guys who dont do anything else. But somehow when its Reggie it gets brought up like its some kinda discussion ending point.

That is a key point that gets lost in all the Miller talk. If he was 21/8/6 with great defense that would be different but he was a one category contributer: scoring and when his contribution in that category is a level that these same people laugh at others from the same era scoring, what does that say? For a player as one dimensional as Miller, he needed to be scoring like Nique' or Carmelo and even those extreme examples illustrate the limits on what kind of impact you can have as a one facet guy, even if that one facet is 28-30 PPG.


When did Reggie Miller become a top 50 player of All-Time? He wasn't a top 50 player 25 years ago, so obviously with more players available, he doesn't become one.

His "30 for 30" helped but some of it is longevity. He was the 5th best SG of his era prime versus prime. He isn't top 100 peak wise. However, he was a borderline all-star forever and that wasn't known in 1997. I have him top 60 on my list but I can see why when the top 75 list comes out he very well may not make it.


I think the way the league has evolved has shifted perceptions about Miller. Him being a great three-point shooter and off-ball player. How do you guys feel about that? Is that legitimate or should opinions about him be set in etched in stone from the time he was playing?

It changed in real time to a large extent. Do you know of any other player with this career trajectory?

First 7 seasons: 1x all-star, 0x all-NBA
Next 6 seasons: 4x all-star, 3x all-NBA (and 99' there was no AS game)

He suddenly became a regular all-star and borderline all-NBA guy at age 29. Why? Spike Lee raised his profile in the 94' ECF as did, to be fair, his great performance in the series (since it was against NY, if it came against CLE or MIL no one would care). NBC added him to the montage of "stars" they would have before kicking off their coverage. I don't think they ever had him before. Etc.

He then took another leap in the past decade or so from a confluence of MJ stans hyping anyone who played against MJ and new stats like ORTG which make him shine on paper to people who don't understand what the stat is and why catch and shoot players and dunkers score so high in it.


I dont see players placed in the same tier having that kind of resume as the best player on his team.

No, but the real question is what do they do if Miller and "X" swapped teams? This came up with McHale vs. Miller when someone made the same point you just did. If Miller is put on the Celtics and McHale on the Pacers, which team gets better and which team gets worse?


I feel like we saw Reggie like we see Donovan Mitchell in the Jazz today. No one would mistake him for MVP or all nba. But he did step up in the playoff. People don't care about Utah though so that's not helping.

If Mitchell stays at that level, sure, but let's see if he continues to improve.


And my opinion of Reggie is higher than the people at the time. Players....coaches....fans. All ranked him behind people you(with absolutely no knowledge of them) would laugh at.

We have never gotten an answer as to why everyone got it "wrong" back then.

[tpols]

I watched Reggie Miller... I used to watch every Nets game on YES network in the early 2000's, and some of the teams I saw the most of outside of them were the celtics, pistons, sixers, and pacers. I have an autographed Nets playbook from the same year Reggie was lighting us up and hitting buzzer beating 3 pt shots in the playoffs. I also watched Allen Iverson... so your analogies don't line up. I watched these guys. You might as well tell me I didn't watch Kobe either.

The funniest thing is I saw mostly old Reggie about 100 times. He was that bad ass of a player even as an older player. So if anything my perspective has me UNDER rating him... and his prime playoff stats back that up.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

It changed in real time to a large extent. Do you know of any other player with this career trajectory?

First 7 seasons: 1x all-star, 0x all-NBA
Next 6 seasons: 4x all-star, 3x all-NBA (and 99' there was no AS game)

He suddenly became a regular all-star and borderline all-NBA guy at age 29. Why? Spike Lee raised his profile in the 94' ECF as did, to be fair, his great performance in the series (since it was against NY, if it came against CLE or MIL no one would care). NBC added him to the montage of "stars" they would have before kicking off their coverage. I don't think they ever had him before. Etc.


Steve Nash comes to mind. Even more extremely so. Many feel he, especially, was benefitted by the rule changes and many seem to feel Reggie would be as well.

[Mr. Woke]

Reggie and John are two of the most overrated players of all time.

[L.Kizzle]

In 1997, SLAM Magazine put out a list to counter punch the NBA's at 50 official list. And after their 50, the did an additional 25 players titled "Missin' the Cut." Reggie didn't even make that list. On the missin' the cut section were 62 Kevin Johnson, 69 Terry Cummings and 75 Mitch Richmond.

Also, they had a list of 5 up and comers and they were
Kemp
GP
Shaq (they took him off, too young)
Penny
Hill

[tpols]

It doesn't matter what list he made. That's just money. Hype. Selling the game. Reggie's style is honestly boring because people tend to only watch the ball when they watch basketball. They don't watch off ball. Eyes are made to track the ball. So naturally guys who have flashier, dribbling based games are going to be sold more. Penny and Grant Hill had like 2-3 seasons worth of prime playoffs. Reggie had 12+.

Reggie Miller has 2972 playoffs points. Grant Hill and Penny have a combined 1827 on worse efficiency. This is a lapping. I could combine two HOF'ers productions and they still fall a mile short.

It is what it is... but keep letting other people think for you.

[Roundball_Rock]

Steve Nash comes to mind. Even more extremely so. Many feel he, especially, was benefitted by the rule changes and many seem to feel Reggie would be as well.

The thing with Nash is his performance changed along with his perception. Miller was doing the same things the entire 1990-2000 period. If the 94' ECF was against the Cavs or Bucks would we be talking about Miller today? I would wager we would not. He needed New York, he needed the spat with a celebrity in Spike Lee, etc.


Reggie and John are two of the most overrated players of all time.

Miller for sure. Look at this thread. Being compared (favorably) to Iverson. :lol Stockton is properly rated as top 30 all-time IMO because of his longevity but people forget the nuance with him: how low his peak was (compared to the other players in the top 40). Bill Simmons says in his book that Magic, Isiah, Payton were clearly better than Stockton as contemporary PG's and that K. Johnson (GM's thought KJ>Stockton by 15-7 in a SI survey in the early 90's) and Hardaway probably were too (I assume he meant Tim but if you are talking peaks then Penny goes ahead of Stockton too). If you go by that, Stockton was the 5th or 6th best PG peak wise of his own era. Yet he gets discussed as the 2nd greatest PG of all-time.

If you put the top 40 all-time players in a "peak" draft, does Stockton go over any of them?


In 1997, SLAM Magazine put out a list to counter punch the NBA's at 50 official list. And after their 50, the did an additional 25 players titled "Missin' the Cut." Reggie didn't even make that list. On the missin' the cut section were 62 Kevin Johnson, 69 Terry Cummings and 75 Mitch Richmond.

Also, they had a list of 5 up and comers and they were
Kemp
GP
Shaq (they took him off, too young)
Penny
Hill

That makes sense. Miller's peak was really low compared to other top 75ish all-time players. His argument is his longevity, which was unknowable in 97'.

[Kblaze8855]

It doesn't matter what list he made. That's just money. Hype. Selling the game. Reggie's style is honestly boring because people tend to only watch the ball when they watch basketball. They don't watch off ball. Eyes are made to track the ball. So naturally guys who have flashier, dribbling based games are going to be sold more. Penny and Grant Hill had like 2-3 seasons worth of prime playoffs. Reggie had 12+.

Reggie Miller has 2972 playoffs points. Grant Hill and Penny have a combined 1827 on worse efficiency. This is a lapping. I could combine two HOF'ers productions and they still fall a mile short.

It is what it is... but keep letting other people think for you.



This dude really comparing Reggie Miller to Grant Hill as basketball players while acting like some kinda real basketball purist.

These kids giving me high blood pressure. Let me get off this site for a minute....

[MadDog]

I have Iverson>Miller but Reggie had a few signature series and GREAT playoff moments. Classics really. What it comes down to imo is coaching and offensive help. AI in Philly wasn't surrounded with a whole lot on offense. In Denver, he played with Melo although was already leaving his prime. Plus they faced Kobe/Gasol's Lakers who went to three straight finals. Not an excuse but definitely bad timing. I think Miller is a better #2 and in special circumstances, maybe a better #1 because of his ability to space the floor. In general AI was more skilled and a dominant scorer.

[Roundball_Rock]

This dude really comparing Reggie Miller to Grant Hill as basketball players while acting like some kinda real basketball purist.

These kids giving me high blood pressure. Let me get off this site for a minute....

What makes it even more amusing is he "thinks" Penny is in the HOF. :lol

Iverson
Hill
Penny
Miller

One of these is not like the others...

[Smoke117]

It doesn't matter what list he made. That's just money. Hype. Selling the game. Reggie's style is honestly boring because people tend to only watch the ball when they watch basketball. They don't watch off ball. Eyes are made to track the ball. So naturally guys who have flashier, dribbling based games are going to be sold more. Penny and Grant Hill had like 2-3 seasons worth of prime playoffs. Reggie had 12+.

Reggie Miller has 2972 playoffs points. Grant Hill and Penny have a combined 1827 on worse efficiency. This is a lapping. I could combine two HOF'ers productions and they still fall a mile short.

It is what it is... but keep letting other people think for you.

Uh...both were vastly superior players to Reggie at his best before injuries ruined their careers.

[tpols]

Uh...both were vastly superior players to Reggie at his best before injuries ruined their careers.

honestly i agree with that but having a decent prime has to account for something. What you did has to matter.

Even you would have to have reggie > iverson though. The thing that frustrates me about that aside from their metrics being an ocean apart, is they have a playoff H2H trilogy where Reggie was outscored by 1 point, but took 7-8 less shots per game. I've seen you go on about volume scorers enough that you wouldn't be able to refute it without going back on everything you've ever said.

[Roundball_Rock]

Uh...both were vastly superior players to Reggie at his best before injuries ruined their careers.

Yup. Ttrolls obviously never watched Miller play.