Chips aside, what are MJ and Bron's arguments over Wilt?

[Bronbron23]

He has multiple regular season and playoffs better than any of both bron and mj's. He was also the best athlete the game has ever seen. I personally view chips as a significant factor in evaluating players but for those who dont why isnt wilt number 1 on your list?

[GrayGoat]

Well the way Bill Russell used him as a jizz rag in the playoffs

(And don’t tell me Russell’s team was overly stacked comparatively because the amount of game 7’s and single digit wins say they weren’t)

[RRR3]

He has multiple regular season and playoffs better than any of both bron and mj's. He was also the best athlete the game has ever seen. I personally view chips as a significant factor in evaluating players but for those who dont why isnt wilt number 1 on your list?
He absolutely does not have playoffs better than LeBron and MJ :oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Well the way Bill Russell used him as a jizz rag in the playoffs

(And don’t tell me Russell’s team was overly stacked comparatively because the amount of game 7’s and single digit wins say they weren’t)

Dish rag? He may have lost but in the post season wilt averaged like 30 and 20 on 60% againsr russell. Thats one hell of a fish rag.

Bron stans are hilarious. bron loses and puts up 33/8/11 on 39% shooting and he's a god. Wilt puts up 35/5/25 and loses and hes a dish rag. Bron stans are the best:facepalm

[dankok8]

Early in his career when he was scoring a ton his teams were noticeably worse than the Celtics and you could even say he slightly overachieved but from about 1966 onwards, he had a good enough team to win a title every single year (except 1971 when West and Baylor were hurt) and finished with only 2 titles in 7 seasons and with only 1 chip as the best player on his team (1967). There is overwhelming evidence that he rarely had a winner's mentality. Chased stats, didn't want to be seen as a lumbering giant so he played finesse, didn't know how to pick his spots and do what his team needed in that particular game, choked in key moments etc. He had back-to-back-to-back bad performances in 1968, 1969 and 1970 in key games. Basically he was lesser player than his stats suggest. As opposed to Russell who was a better player than his stats suggest.

[NBAGOAT]

scoring 30-33 in a series vs russell actually doesnt look as good when you score 37+ during the rs. even for just good players, we give them a lot of shot if they score 20% less while being less efficient. It's not exactly the same since he's scoring so much during the rs but we see plenty of criticism even if a guy dropped from like 27ppg during the rs to like 24 in the ps

[Bronbron23]

He absolutely does not have playoffs better than LeBron and MJ :oldlol:

Are you joking?

[MadDog]

Better playoff and finals performers. One thing about Wilt are that his blocks were not calculated then. That can skew the advanced stats people look at. Doubt it makes up for the scoring gap though.

[8Ball]

More dominant playoff and finals performers.

LeBron more longevity over wilt. Ended up scoring more points.

[Roundball_Rock]

Different for the other two players.

Against MJ, Wilt had a glaring weakness as a FT shooter than MJ did not have.

Against, LeBron, longevity.

These are simplifications but you get the point.

An argument for Wilt is he could dominate in different roles, as the GOAT scorer, as a passer, and as a Russell-like rebounder/defender. Jordan was in the same role his entire career (other than briefly with Collins). LeBron has had some variation (e.g., playing different positions) but Wilt basically had three careers and was a MVP caliber player in each.


scoring 30-33 in a series vs russell actually doesnt look as good when you score 37+ during the rs. even for just good players, we give them a lot of shot if they score 20% less while being less efficient. It's not exactly the same since he's scoring so much during the rs but we see plenty of criticism even if a guy dropped from like 27ppg during the rs to like 24 in the ps

It is unfair, though. Russell is the GOAT defender and we saw guys like Iggy and Starks give LeBron and MJ trouble. Imagine if LeBron faced Kawhi as often as Wilt faced Russell or if MJ faced Payton (or Pippen--the one guy MJ said who could guard him) that often. Their playoff stats would go down compared to RS stats.

[dankok8]

Different for the other two players.

Against MJ, Wilt had a glaring weakness as a FT shooter than MJ did not have.

Against, LeBron, longevity.

These are simplifications but you get the point.

An argument for Wilt is he could dominate in different roles, as the GOAT scorer, as a passer, and as a Russell-like rebounder/defender. Jordan was in the same role his entire career (other than briefly with Collins). LeBron has had some variation (e.g., playing different positions) but Wilt basically had three careers and was a MVP caliber player in each.



It is unfair, though. Russell is the GOAT defender and we saw guys like Iggy and Starks give LeBron and MJ trouble. Imagine if LeBron faced Kawhi as often as Wilt faced Russell or if MJ faced Payton (or Pippen--the one guy MJ said who could guard him) that often. Their playoff stats would go down compared to RS stats.

Good post. Problem isn't Wilt's stats against Russell being lower. In fact his career stats against Russell are really good. Problem is that in big games Wilt usually put up much lower stats. See Game 7's vs. Boston in 1962, 1965, 1968 and 1969. Only in 1965 can you say he had a good game and absolve him. In others, Wilt left a lot on the table and in the latter two couldn't even outplay an older Russell. And that trend was maintained against other opponents like Game 7 vs. New York in 1970 so you can't attribute it all to Russell's defense. Wilt underperformed often in big games. When you do that you give critics a lot of ammunition.

[RRR3]

Are you joking?
No, Jesus Christ how stupid are you? These stats are available. It’s widely known MJ and Bron are better playoff performers than Wilt.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good post. Problem isn't Wilt's stats against Russell being lower. In fact his career stats against Russell are really good. Problem is that in big games Wilt usually put up much lower stats. See Game 7's vs. Boston in 1962, 1965, 1968 and 1969. Only in 1965 can you say he had a good game and absolve him. In others, Wilt left a lot on the table and in the latter two couldn't even outplay an older Russell. And that trend was maintained against other opponents like Game 7 vs. New York in 1970 so you can't attribute it all to Russell's defense. Wilt underperformed often in big games. When you do that you give critics a lot of ammunition.

Thanks. Good points. There was a lot of talk about Wilt's playoff record on ISH around the time Bill Simmons' book came out since he was so anti-Wilt (relatively speaking, he still had Wilt 6th all-time and presumably has him 7th today with LeBron moving to 2nd on his list) and people did deep dives into it on either side of the argument. He doesn't get discussed as much these days. Does anyone have any of those old threads to bump?

One of the biggest issues disputed was whether Wilt was "stat padding" or simply doing what his coach asked him to do.

[HylianNightmare]

None

[Bronbron23]

More dominant playoff and finals performers.

LeBron more longevity over wilt. Ended up scoring more points.

Why do you say they're more dominant playoff and final performers? The only thing that either on did better was passing. Wilt was a better scorrer, rebounder and defender.

And what does scoring more points mean when wilt was clearly the better scorer. Doing something longer than someone dosnt mean your better. I coukd see if were comparing 15 years to just a few but wilt had like 12 consecutive years of over 20pts and 20 rebounds.

[Bronbron23]

No, Jesus Christ how stupid are you? These stats are available. It’s widely known MJ and Bron are better playoff performers than Wilt.

Yes they are available so its you who's obviously stupid.

1960: 33/26
1961 :37/23
1962: 35/27
1964: 35/25
1965: 29/27
1966; 28/30

Wtf is your dumbass looking at:facepalm

[LonelyOwl]

Yes they are available so its you who's obviously stupid.

1960: 33/26
1961 :37/23
1962: 35/27
1964: 35/25
1965: 29/27
1966; 28/30

Wtf is your dumbass looking at:facepalm

Those numbers are massively inflated due to the ridiculous pace they played in that era

50 points back then would only translate to around 25 today

[Bronbron23]

Those numbers are massively inflated due to the ridiculous pace they played in that era

50 points back then would only translate to around 25 today

I dont think the different in pace is that heavy. Pretty sure the difference in pace only works out to a 3 or 4 point difference to now and maybe a 5 or 6 point difference a few years ago.

[RRR3]

Yes they are available so its you who's obviously stupid.

1960: 33/26
1961 :37/23
1962: 35/27
1964: 35/25
1965: 29/27
1966; 28/30

Wtf is your dumbass looking at:facepalm
Look how many minutes he was playing you goober. The most points he ever scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs was 27.7 and he did that on 49.2 TS%. Bron just this past year per 36 in the playoffs? 27.4 on 64.7 TS% :bowdown:

[RRR3]

Dumbdumb23 really ignoring pace, efficiency and MPG :facepalm

[Psileas]

OP, I mostly don't base my GOAT rankings on rings and I do have Wilt as the GOAT.


Good post. Problem isn't Wilt's stats against Russell being lower. In fact his career stats against Russell are really good. Problem is that in big games Wilt usually put up much lower stats. See Game 7's vs. Boston in 1962, 1965, 1968 and 1969. Only in 1965 can you say he had a good game and absolve him. In others, Wilt left a lot on the table and in the latter two couldn't even outplay an older Russell. And that trend was maintained against other opponents like Game 7 vs. New York in 1970 so you can't attribute it all to Russell's defense. Wilt underperformed often in big games. When you do that you give critics a lot of ammunition.

What? It's literally the other way round. Wilt is easily among the GOAT do or die game performers and, although he has some underperformances here and there, so do the other GOATs. Like half of the games you listed here (1965, 1969) were far from being statistically mediocre for his standards (let alone overall), in 1968 he rebounded and passed like crazy and it's known that nobody blamed him for the 1962 performance, because he played Russell-like defense. And these are only games/series that he lost. How about the ones that he won? How come these are never considered "big games"? He's closed series with 40-50 pointers, with volumous triple doubles, with 70+% shooting nights, with blocked shots galores, pretty much with any dominant way there is. I won't bother to find the old lists by Lazeruss, but the list of big game performers that rival Wilt is seriously short.

[dankok8]

OP, I mostly don't base my GOAT rankings on rings and I do have Wilt as the GOAT.



What? It's literally the other way round. Wilt is easily among the GOAT do or die game performers and, although he has some underperformances here and there, so do the other GOATs. Like half of the games you listed here (1965, 1969) were far from being statistically mediocre for his standards (let alone overall), in 1968 he rebounded and passed like crazy and it's known that nobody blamed him for the 1962 performance, because he played Russell-like defense. And these are only games/series that he lost. How about the ones that he won? How come these are never considered "big games"? He's closed series with 40-50 pointers, with volumous triple doubles, with 70+% shooting nights, with blocked shots galores, pretty much with any dominant way there is. I won't bother to find the old lists by Lazeruss, but the list of big game performers that rival Wilt is seriously short.

Like I said Wilt probably overachieved a bit early in his career from 1960-1965 but it's the latter part of his career his non-scoring years that he came up short. You can't tell me that Wilt performed up to par in the 1962, 1968 and 1969 Game 7's. He simply didn't. Look at the newspapers at the time. They ripped Wilt to shreds. He lost a lot of playoff series with a better roster as a favorite which isn't a good look.

I mean the things I say have a caveat that I wasn't alive at the time so I may be a prison of the prevailing narrative. However, even his numbers in these games (apart from rebounds) look unimpressive.

[Psileas]

I dont think the different in pace is that heavy. Pretty sure the difference in pace only works out to a 3 or 4 point difference to now and maybe a 5 or 6 point difference a few years ago.

Difference in pace doesn't even matter with the exception of rebounds (the only inflated stat of the era), because teams have been historically trying to keep their star players' scoring numbers high, so the whole pace differential only hits hard the role players. The NBA knows fans care about "superhero" basketball, not team basketball.

[SouBeachTalents]

I've got Wilt top 5, so it's not like I'd be outraged if someone did rank Wilt over them. But the knock against Wilt has been known for a very long time now, the guy underperformed for his standards in the playoffs & especially in big games several times throughout his career, while Jordan & LeBron (esp since 2012) have often played up to and even above their usual standards in those same situations.

If you got to pick one for a Game 7, are you really choosing Wilt over Jordan & LeBron?

[Psileas]

Like I said Wilt probably overachieved a bit early in his career from 1960-1965 but it's the latter part of his career his non-scoring years that he came up short. You can't tell me that Wilt performed up to par in the 1962, 1968 and 1969 Game 7's. He simply didn't. Look at the newspapers at the time. They ripped Wilt to shreds. He lost a lot of playoff series with a better roster as a favorite which isn't a good look.

I mean the things I say have a caveat that I wasn't alive at the time so I may be a prison of the prevailing narrative. However, even his numbers in these games (apart from rebounds) look unimpressive.

Well, it's exactly the newspapers that tell us Wilt didn't underperform in '62, despite his low scoring number and quotes from the likes of Cousy (who wasn't even a big Wilt fan). In 1969, he was blamed for that early exit, people thought he was faking that injury, including Russell for quite a while, but they were wrong. Even with that exit, Wilt had his best game in the series (not among his best series of course, but I see you attack that specific game). In '68, he had a normal first half, but a second half in which he barely shot. It's generally considered an underperformance, despite him being injured and grabbing 34 rebounds, so it's still not exactly a humiliating game. I wouldn't be surprised if he was trying to make a statement that he didn't find the distributor's role that useful after all, but anyway, almost everyone would still kill to have the equivalent of a 14/34/5 game considered as a "dark spot" in his career.

[Bronbron23]

Look how many minutes he was playing you goober. The most points he ever scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs was 27.7 and he did that on 49.2 TS%. Bron just this past year per 36 in the playoffs? 27.4 on 64.7 TS% :bowdown:

Per 36 doesn't mean shit. Lebron usually has around the same stats no matter how many minutes he plays. Plus lebron gasses out fairy fast. He couldn't play 48 min on a regular bases. He can barely play 40 without having to rest on defense half the time.

[dankok8]

Well, it's exactly the newspapers that tell us Wilt didn't underperform in '62, despite his low scoring number and quotes from the likes of Cousy (who wasn't even a big Wilt fan). In 1969, he was blamed for that early exit, people thought he was faking that injury, including Russell for quite a while, but they were wrong. Even with that exit, Wilt had his best game in the series (not among his best series of course, but I see you attack that specific game). In '68, he had a normal first half, but a second half in which he barely shot. It's generally considered an underperformance, despite him being injured and grabbing 34 rebounds, so it's still not exactly a humiliating game. I wouldn't be surprised if he was trying to make a statement that he didn't find the distributor's role that useful after all, but anyway, almost everyone would still kill to have the equivalent of a 14/34/5 game considered as a "dark spot" in his career.

1962 was by far his lowest scoring game of the entire season. He did play good defense but it's still an underperformance.

That entire Finals in 1969, Wilt played very very passive ala Lebron in 2011. He was taking very few shots deferring to West. It wasn't right on my part to single out Game 7 when that might have been his best game of the series though. The series as a whole was poor on Wilt's part.

The problem with blaming injuries is that injuries still reduce a player's value. If Wilt was indeed playing injured in so many postseasons that's still underperforming.

[Bronbron23]

Dumbdumb23 really ignoring pace, efficiency and MPG :facepalm

Mpg is irrelevant. Look at brons career. His stats dont get significantly higher the more minutes he plays. He rests for a reason dumbass. Bron is a bit more efficient but the small edge in efficiency isnt enough to make up for wilt being a superior rebounder and defender. As far as pace its reall not that significant. Wilts 50 point season would be something like 46/24 adjusted for pace. Bron just played in the highest pace year he's ever played and his stats weren't much different then any other year. Try again:facepalm

[GrayGoat]

Careful op. We know what happens when we only make stats the main theme.


LeKang

[Bronbron23]

Careful op. We know what happens when we only make stats the main theme.


LeKang

Uh yeah, wilt is the best

[Micku]

Look how many minutes he was playing you goober. The most points he ever scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs was 27.7 and he did that on 49.2 TS%. Bron just this past year per 36 in the playoffs? 27.4 on 64.7 TS% :bowdown:

TS% is irrelevant in this comparison I think. They didn't have a 3pt line. LeBron would have a worse TS% if there was no 3pt line.

And the rules are different. It's much easier to score with the perimeter players now, and the addition of small ball creates little rim protection along with the rules that help the big men to keep out of the paint. The aspect of spacing is much better now.

The stats across eras in general probably be compared. While I do think Wilt and LeBron would be great no matter what era, to say just because LeBron have that type efficiency in one era and Wilt having crazy rebounds and leading the league FG% in one era, doesn't mean they would it in another era. We can make predictions and compare skillsets, that's fun, but still.

The only way you could compare is what they did in their respective competition. The rules, style of play, and pacing are different.

In this case, Wilt did underperform in the playoffs in comparison to MJ and LeBron who usually rise their game. Of course LeBron has a few years where he underperformed, but Wilt had more years where he underperformed.

Wilt is probably the best athletic in NBA history and has the best potential to put the best stats, obviously. But looking at his RS/PO numbers, he dropped off a few times. It's not just about stats tho. In this case, I assume, is about who could make their team better. As Wilt himself said, sometimes when you do more you hurt the team. Wilt when I think he did have the talent, he struggle to find that balance. As probably some ppl were telling him to be more like Russell or etc.

In a similar way that MJ got some slack of him probably being the best individual player in the league, but not the best player because he didn't make his team better like Magic and Bird. LeBron lacked that "killer instinct" to get his teams over the hump a few times.

[MadDog]

Yes they are available so its you who's obviously stupid.

1960: 33/26
1961 :37/23
1962: 35/27
1964: 35/25
1965: 29/27
1966; 28/30

You have to adjust for minutes and possessions though. Per 100 possessions, Jordan averaged more points/assists/offensive winshares. From ages 23-35, or roughly the time of both players' prime, Playoff Jordan averaged 33 points on 48% shooting and 6 assists. Wilt averaged 24 on 52% with 4 assists. In the finals, overall, Jordan averaged 34 points on 48% shooting and 6 assists compared to Wilt's 18 points on 55% shooting (39% on freethrows) and 4 assists. Wilt's edge on defense doesn't makeup for the CLEAR advantage Jordan had on offense.

[Bronbron23]

You have to adjust for minutes and possessions though. Per 100 possessions, Jordan averaged more points/assists/offensive winshares. From ages 23-35, or roughly the time of both players' prime, Playoff Jordan averaged 33 points on 48% shooting and 6 assists. Wilt averaged 24 on 52% with 4 assists. In the finals, overall, Jordan averaged 34 points on 48% shooting and 6 assists compared to Wilt's 18 points on 55% shooting (39% on freethrows) and 4 assists. Wilt's edge on defense doesn't makeup for the CLEAR advantage Jordan had on offense.

Not a fan of per possession tbh. It severely favors ball dominant players. Players who play 8n systems with alot of on and off ball movement tend to have alot more empty positions then ball dominant players. That may not apply as much here though but per100 can be a bit misleading.

[MadDog]

Not a fan of per possession tbh. It severely favors ball dominant players. Players who play 8n systems with alot of on and off ball movement tend to have alot more empty positions then ball dominant players. That may not apply as much here though but per100 can be a bit misleading.

I agree, but more possessions give players further opportunity to up their numbers. The stats I pulled were without adjustments by the way. As is, Jordan was a better offensive player when it mattered. Especially in the finals.

[GrayGoat]

Op giving up on MJ now trying his hand with a nothing but stats player. Desperate times

[RRR3]

Op giving up on MJ now trying his hand with a nothing but stats player. Desperate times
Remember he’s a “LeBron fan” though.

[Bronbron23]

Op giving up on MJ now trying his hand with a nothing but stats player. Desperate times

I dont even know what that means dude. Ive never said mj is the goat only that he's the best player I've ever seen play imo. I haven't really seen Russell, west, wilt or kareem.

Dont be butt hurt because your own logic on why bron is better than mj dosnt work against wilt. The truth hurts bitch.

[StrongLurk]

Wilt played in the wrong era. Case closed.

[Bronbron23]

Remember he’s a “LeBron fan” though.

I think lebron is the best player in the league and one of the best ever yeah. I just think mj is a little better. I dont know if either is the goat and im not a "fan" of either. What are you 12 dude? I dont understand being a fan of another grown man who you dont know and would want absolutely nothing to do with you if you ever met. Its weird and pathetic tbh.

[RRR3]

I think lebron is the best player in the league and one of the best ever yeah. I just think mj is a little better. I dont know if either is the goat and im not a "fan" of either. What are you 12 dude? I dont understand being a fan of another grown man who you dont know and would want absolutely nothing to do with you if you ever met. Its weird and pathetic tbh.
Um...you’re the one constantly making threads pouting about people ranking LeBron higher than you want him to be ranked.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jordan doesn't have an argument over Wilt or any all-time great big man. Jordan is fringe top 10 (and that's being generous)... 60 wins with Pete Myers replacing him. You can't overcome that. He didn't have great impact.

Every other top 10er had legendary impact.


Wilt over LeBron though? That's laughable.

[Bronbron23]

Um...you’re the one constantly making threads pouting about people ranking LeBron higher than you want him to be ranked.

Wtf are you talking about? He's ranked number 2 by most and im fine with that. Yall are the ones always saying bron is goat. I just disagree.

[Bronbron23]

Jordan doesn't have an argument over Wilt or any all-time great big man. Jordan is fringe top 10 (and that's being generous)... 60 wins with Pete Myers replacing him. You can't overcome that. He didn't have great impact.

Every other top 10er had legendary impact.


Wilt over LeBron though? That's laughable.

You just disqualify yourself with dumb shit like that but thats why your known as one of the biggest trolls on here. Anyone sayimg mj is a fringe top 10 is an idiot. Same goes with bron.

[AlternativeAcc.]

You just disqualify yourself with dumb shit like that but thats why your known as one of the biggest trolls on here. Anyone sayimg mj is a fringe top 10 is an idiot. Same goes with bron.

I have the impact argument on my side and its yet to be refuted.

60 wins without you, AFTER they were already worn down and exhausted as a result of 3 straight championship runs... they likely lose in the same way WITH Jordan just due to fatigue. He returned the next season and they won the same amount of games and got waxed in the 2nd round by Nick Anderson. No impact = no top 10

[RRR3]

Wtf are you talking about? He's ranked number 2 by most and im fine with that. Yall are the ones always saying bron is goat. I just disagree.
I don’t rank LeBron as GOAT unless I’m trolling. You’re very easily fooled by blatant trolling.

[Bronbron23]

I have the impact argument on my side and its yet to be refuted.

60 wins without you, AFTER they were already worn down and exhausted as a result of 3 straight championship runs... they likely lose in the same way WITH Jordan just due to fatigue. He returned the next season and they won the same amount of games and got waxed in the 2nd round by Nick Anderson. No impact = no top 10

You mean when he returned after almost 2 years off all the while while playing a different sport. Cool, I wonder what happened to lebron when he missed alot of the time and tried to come back and make the playoffs:facepalm

[AlternativeAcc.]

You mean when he returned after almost 2 years off all the while while playing a different sport. Cool, I wonder what happened to lebron when he missed alot of the time and tried to come back and make the playoffs:facepalm

Lebron was coming off an injury... with the worst supporting cast in the league... whose record was well below.500 without him, in his 16th season

Jordan was returning from hitting .180 in double a softball where he was a complete scrub and embarrassment, at the height of his athletic peak, having no wear and tear whatsoever, on a team that won 60 games without him.

Nice comparison einstein :roll::facepalm

[Bronbron23]

Lebron was coming off an injury... with the worst supporting cast in the league... whose record was well below.500 without him, in his 16th season

Jordan was returning from hitting .180 in double a softball where he was a complete scrub and embarrassment, at the height of his athletic peak, having no wear and tear whatsoever, on a team that won 60 games without him.

Nice comparison einstein :roll::facepalm

You mean the injury that he came back 100% from after only a little while and said time to playoff mode?

Imagine comparing a year in a half to only a couple months. But i'm the Einstein:facepalm

[TheCorporation]

Look how many minutes he was playing you goober. The most points he ever scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs was 27.7 and he did that on 49.2 TS%. Bron just this past year per 36 in the playoffs? 27.4 on 64.7 TS% :bowdown:

Gottem :rockon:

[Ben Simmons]

Wilt and Russell are the hardest players to rate. I think you can easily make a case for them as the GOATs, but Im not gonna sit here and pretend like I watched them or have any idea what im talking about when it comes to how good they actually were or werent.

All that being said, yeah I would take Jordan or Lebron over Wilt in a Game 7.

But other then that I can see case being made for Wilt. He was that dominant.

[Ben Simmons]

Look how many minutes he was playing you goober. The most points he ever scored per 36 minutes in the playoffs was 27.7 and he did that on 49.2 TS%. Bron just this past year per 36 in the playoffs? 27.4 on 64.7 TS% :bowdown:

Per 36 is a garbage stat. Numbers dont directly correlate to minutes played for players. Never have, never will.

That said, you cant ignore pace of play but there is no way to accurate "change" someone's numbers it's just something you have to keep in mind

[Axe]

Fmvp count?

[Axe]

I dont even know what that means dude. Ive never said mj is the goat only that he's the best player I've ever seen play imo. I haven't really seen Russell, west, wilt or kareem.

Dont be butt hurt because your own logic on why bron is better than mj dosnt work against wilt. The truth hurts bitch.
:oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Gottem :rockon:

In half of wilts seasons i listed he only played a few minutes more than some of brons seasons where he played more than 40 min. In those extra 2-3 min bron may score 2 more points and maybe get 1 more rebound and assist. Your both idiots:facepalm