What do you actually think? Do you even know anymore?

[Kblaze8855]

If you read through ISH right now(or the last several years) you get a lot of:




I'm using OP's logic against him.



I still used his own simple-minded base logic against him...



I'll just use your logic against your idol



I'm just sticking to his criteria because it's much harder for him to wiggle out of it if I use his own logic against him.




And so on. People will make topics that require effort. Research and quotes and multiple posts to explain.....and all under the premise of trolling a troll.

Posting shit you do not believe is true....so a troll will come fight with you. Ignoring of course that this makes you a troll as well.

It gets so far people argue the same points for years and years.....almost entirely using what they think is someone elses stupid logic.

So. We get people who years ago wanted to go with basketball ability transitioning to ring count and accolades because "According to _____ stan logic!" and they will argue it for years to come.


What im wondering is this...


After 400-500 posts of what you started out thinking was bullshit....do you now believe it?



Do Lebron fans who were anti ring count for 15 years actually now think ring count matters?

Is anyone actually stupid enough to believe that Michael Jordans record without Scottie Pippen is a valid basketball point and not just a response to equally moronic ___/____ bumper sticker idiot arguments?

Does anyone actually think that how good you are at basketball personally is a matter of accomplishments minus the greatness of your teams second best player? Any of you actually that stupid?

And if not.....why are there 40 topics a month on how good *insert sidekick* was? Because someone you think is stupid thinks thats a good point so you counter with your own idiocy....for like....18 months?


When you spend your time here arguing all day from someone elses stupid perspective....does it alter your own?

Id actually be interested in what some of you think about some things. But we mostly seem to get your version of what you think makes someone else stupid.

We all delve into pointing out the flaws in an argument using another example or whatever. But to built entire personas and spend months on arguments you initially claimed you didnt believe....

Dont you get lost? A lot of you seem pretty lost is all....

[SouBeachTalents]

1-9

[AlternativeAcc.]

60 wins with Pete Myers

[KirbyPls]

LeQuatro has ruined even the best posters. Many such cases.

[starface]

“He used to tell her he could satisfy her better, to which Madonna would reply: No chance.”

[SouBeachTalents]

“He used to tell her he could satisfy her better, to which Madonna would reply: No chance.”
All that means is Pippen was HUGE. Not necessarily MJ isn't packing. She was content with Pippen. LMAO @ these clowns straight reaching.

[KirbyPls]

All that means is Pippen was HUGE. Not necessarily MJ isn't packing. She was content with Pippen. LMAO @ these clowns straight reaching.

Coach in shambles.

[dankok8]

Great post Kblaze! I sometimes wonder too if people believe some of the things they're arguing.

[light]

https://i.imgflip.com/4jyxlh.jpg

[Overdrive]

If you read through ISH right now(or the last several years) you get a lot of:

















And so on. People will make topics that require effort. Research and quotes and multiple posts to explain.....and all under the premise of trolling a troll.

Posting shit you do not believe is true....so a troll will come fight with you. Ignoring of course that this makes you a troll as well.

It gets so far people argue the same points for years and years.....almost entirely using what they think is someone elses stupid logic.

So. We get people who years ago wanted to go with basketball ability transitioning to ring count and accolades because "According to _____ stan logic!" and they will argue it for years to come.


What im wondering is this...


After 400-500 posts of what you started out thinking was bullshit....do you now believe it?



Do Lebron fans who were anti ring count for 15 years actually now think ring count matters?

Is anyone actually stupid enough to believe that Michael Jordans record without Scottie Pippen is a valid basketball point and not just a response to equally moronic ___/____ bumper sticker idiot arguments?

Does anyone actually think that how good you are at basketball personally is a matter of accomplishments minus the greatness of your teams second best player? Any of you actually that stupid?

And if not.....why are there 40 topics a month on how good *insert sidekick* was? Because someone you think is stupid thinks thats a good point so you counter with your own idiocy....for like....18 months?


When you spend your time here arguing all day from someone elses stupid perspective....does it alter your own?

Id actually be interested in what some of you think about some things. But we mostly seem to get your version of what you think makes someone else stupid.

We all delve into pointing out the flaws in an argument using another example or whatever. But to built entire personas and spend months on arguments you initially claimed you didnt believe....

Dont you get lost? A lot of you seem pretty lost is all....

The MJ and Kobe stans were bad when I joined, but the Lebron family killed discussion for good. There are almost no Kobe fans left anymore. The few real MJ stans just try to get back at the Lebron alts and then there's 3ball posting the same shit over and over no matter the responses he gets.

This board is done the moment Lebron retires. Not because there won't be stuff to discuss but too many users who's life didn't revolve around Lebron left over the years.

[SouBeachTalents]

The MJ and Kobe stans were bad when I joined, but the Lebron family killed discussion for good. There are almost no Kobe fans left anymore. The few real MJ stans just try to get back at the Lebron alts and then there's 3ball posting the same shit over and over no matter the responses he gets.

This board is done the moment Lebron retires. Not because there won't be stuff to discuss but too many users who's life didn't revolve around Lebron left over the years.
Nah, it's definitely not only his fans, LeBron haters make just as many posts and threads about him as his fans do. They aren't posting now because they vacated like rats after LeBron won, but had he lost it'd be a 100% certainty they'd be making endless threads about him right now. The haters are just as culpable as his fans are for the state of this board

[Overdrive]

Nah, it's definitely not only his fans, LeBron haters make just as many posts and threads about him as his fans do. They aren't posting now because they vacated like rats after LeBron won, but had he lost it'd be a 100% certainty they'd be making endless threads about him right now. The haters are just as culpable as his fans are for the state of this board

That's what I meant by getting back at the alts. It's stupid AF especially when they've been the main aggressors for years along with the (already overtaken) Kobe stans and now find themselves at the defensive end because Lebron's closing in.

Maybe if we just accepted as a collective that MJ, Lebron and Kobe were/are great players we could get back to serious discussion.

[Shooter]

LeQuatro has ruined even the best posters. Many such cases.

[Ainosterhaspie]

1-9 is stupid. So is 6/6.

Reducing LeBron to three bad games in 2011 is too.

Ring counting is shallow.

Jordan shouldn't get a pass for 94-95.

Kobe was fantastic at times during threepeat, Shaq was better.

Jordan was good enough to win titles without Pippen. He also got lucky and played on a stacked team in a watered down era.

LeBron's biggest flaw is an inconsistent jumper, but he hasn't lost a series because of that since 2011.

The 80s and 90s weren't remotely close to as physical as people say now, and the current era is more physical than its given credit for. 96-04 was a very strong defensive era.

If LeBron had been drafted to the Pistons he'd have had at least two tiltes and one finals MVP by the end of his rookie contract , he'd be viewed as a clutch winner and the not clutch narrative never would have developed. He also wouldn't have become as great a player.

LeBron's 2011 disaster performance shields Wade from deserved criticism. He's a good enough player to have won that series despite LeBron's bad performance.

[Micku]

The MJ and Kobe stans were bad when I joined, but the Lebron family killed discussion for good. There are almost no Kobe fans left anymore. The few real MJ stans just try to get back at the Lebron alts and then there's 3ball posting the same shit over and over no matter the responses he gets.

This board is done the moment Lebron retires. Not because there won't be stuff to discuss but too many users who's life didn't revolve around Lebron left over the years.

I disagree. The cycle will always continue.

The Kobe fans used to have talking points too. Instead of talking about the stats purely, they talk about how hard the era was in both teams and defense. And they devalue MJ accomplishments. They ddin't really go on Pippen as much, my guess is because of Shaq. But they talked about the pacing, and Pippen when it came to Gasol. And they would say the Bulls were stacked. They both had the same coach, so it was a bit different in that regard. They would say Kobe is the most skilled of the two and etc.

Ten years before Kobe, it was Shaq. Ppl used to bash on Shaq because of the bully ball. And ppl bashed on Kobe of his shot selection and weak final performances. But with Shaq, it always he had the potential but never the work ethic to surpass MJ or Kareem. And he didn't have the moves of a Kareem or Hakeem. He focused on over powering.

There are some levels of truth to it, and a lot of exaggeration. Every wing player gets compared to MJ post Bulls MJ. Even MJ of the Wizards.

If you check out old forum posts (not here), there were lots of battles between Magic/Bird in the 80s. Then Magic/MJ. And a lot of ppl would complain that MJ would get away with hand checking in the late 90s and fouling. And people thought the only reason why MJ scores so much is because he shot a lot. They thought if other players shoot as much as MJ, then they would score just as much. And they reference how Magic had a stacked team while MJ was pulling in more weight with his team. And Magic was whiny and always complain to the refs.

The cycle will continue after LeBron retires. I don't know whatever it's Luka, Giannis or some unknown player. Ppl will eventually devalue this era for the next era. Just like they always do.

80s ppl: The last era was too selfish. Much better teammplay. Much better talent across the league.
90s ppl: 80s had no defense. Teams learned to adapt to the top teams by slowing down the pace and stopping transition offense, especially if they didn't have the talent.
00s ppl: Last era had no defense. Grit and grind. Harder to play as superstar in the league. Zone defense.
10s ppl: Last era had no offense. Much better at spacing the floor. Superteam era. Much better teamplay.


And the cycle will go on in the 20s decade.

The only thing that amuses me is that the constant comparison to MJ. The last time we saw Bulls MJ was 1998. 22 years ago. And we still talk about him. There are still comparisons to MJ even if players don't have a single speck of MJ's move in their game. They don't talk about Magic like as much anymore, while I think he is still the GOAT of controlling an offense and passing. They don't talk about that with Bird as much anymore. But every decade they question whatever or not Bird could play in that era. Kareem gets mentioned every once in a while. Wilt still gets mentioned. Russell with his rings.

Ppl forgot about Barkley and how good he was I think. Ppl haven't forgotten about Shaq, but there is no center who compares to him today. Hakeem I feel is more hardcore NBA ppl.

But eveeevryone talks about MJ. In the mid to early 10s, it was Kobe vs MJ. Now it's LeBron vs MJ. And then later, it might someone else vs MJ. That's much impact MJ had on the game. 22 years and we're still talking about him like he's playing. LeBron might have that similar impact on the newer generation, but we'll see.

[Shooter]

I disagree. The cycle will always continue.

The Kobe fans used to have talking points too. Instead of talking about the stats purely, they talk about how hard the era was in both teams and defense. And they devalue MJ accomplishments. They ddin't really go on Pippen as much, my guess is because of Shaq. But they talked about the pacing, and Pippen when it came to Gasol. And they would say the Bulls were stacked. They both had the same coach, so it was a bit different in that regard. They would say Kobe is the most skilled of the two and etc.

Ten years before Kobe, it was Shaq. Ppl used to bash on Shaq because of the bully ball. And ppl bashed on Kobe of his shot selection and weak final performances. But with Shaq, it always he had the potential but never the work ethic to surpass MJ or Kareem. And he didn't have the moves of a Kareem or Hakeem. He focused on over powering.

There are some levels of truth to it, and a lot of exaggeration. Every wing player gets compared to MJ post Bulls MJ. Even MJ of the Wizards.

If you check out old forum posts (not here), there were lots of battles between Magic/Bird in the 80s. Then Magic/MJ. And a lot of ppl would complain that MJ would get away with hand checking in the late 90s and fouling. And people thought the only reason why MJ scores so much is because he shot a lot. They thought if other players shoot as much as MJ, then they would score just as much. And they reference how Magic had a stacked team while MJ was pulling in more weight with his team. And Magic was whiny and always complain to the refs.

The cycle will continue after LeBron retires. I don't know whatever it's Luka, Giannis or some unknown player. Ppl will eventually devalue this era for the next era. Just like they always do.

80s ppl: The last era was too selfish. Much better teammplay. Much better talent across the league.
90s ppl: 80s had no defense. Teams learned to adapt to the top teams by slowing down the pace and stopping transition offense, especially if they didn't have the talent.
00s ppl: Last era had no defense. Grit and grind. Harder to play as superstar in the league. Zone defense.
10s ppl: Last era had no offense. Much better at spacing the floor. Superteam era. Much better teamplay.


And the cycle will go on in the 20s decade.

The only thing that amuses me is that the constant comparison to MJ. The last time we saw Bulls MJ was 1998. 22 years ago. And we still talk about him. There are still comparisons to MJ even if players don't have a single speck of MJ's move in their game. They don't talk about Magic like as much anymore, while I think he is still the GOAT of controlling an offense and passing. They don't talk about that with Bird as much anymore. But every decade they question whatever or not Bird could play in that era. Kareem gets mentioned every once in a while. Wilt still gets mentioned. Russell with his rings.

Ppl forgot about Barkley and how good he was I think. Ppl haven't forgotten about Shaq, but there is no center who compares to him today. Hakeem I feel is more hardcore NBA ppl.

But eveeevryone talks about MJ. In the mid to early 10s, it was Kobe vs MJ. Now it's LeBron vs MJ. And then later, it might someone else vs MJ. That's much impact MJ had on the game. 22 years and we're still talking about him like he's playing. LeBron might have that similar impact on the newer generation, but we'll see.

LBJ has ALL the playoff records. Going forward MJ wont be argued as much because no one cares to argue for 3rd place.

7,491

Get used to it

[Bawkish]

LBJ has ALL the playoff records. Going forward MJ wont be argued as much because no one cares to argue for 3rd place.

7,491

Get used to it

and yet you still compared him to MJ

no matter how you phrased it, it still all comes back to him because he's the standard of excellence

[Axe]

Curry stans are also missing in this board.

[Shooter]

and yet you still compared him to MJ

no matter how you phrased it, it still all comes back to him because he's the standard of excellence

3rd best now.

New Bar Set.

[Bawkish]

3rd best now.

New Bar Set.

you still live inside the bubble

[Bawkish]

If you read through ISH right now(or the last several years) you get a lot of:

















And so on. People will make topics that require effort. Research and quotes and multiple posts to explain.....and all under the premise of trolling a troll.

Posting shit you do not believe is true....so a troll will come fight with you. Ignoring of course that this makes you a troll as well.

It gets so far people argue the same points for years and years.....almost entirely using what they think is someone elses stupid logic.

So. We get people who years ago wanted to go with basketball ability transitioning to ring count and accolades because "According to _____ stan logic!" and they will argue it for years to come.


What im wondering is this...


After 400-500 posts of what you started out thinking was bullshit....do you now believe it?



Do Lebron fans who were anti ring count for 15 years actually now think ring count matters?

Is anyone actually stupid enough to believe that Michael Jordans record without Scottie Pippen is a valid basketball point and not just a response to equally moronic ___/____ bumper sticker idiot arguments?

Does anyone actually think that how good you are at basketball personally is a matter of accomplishments minus the greatness of your teams second best player? Any of you actually that stupid?

And if not.....why are there 40 topics a month on how good *insert sidekick* was? Because someone you think is stupid thinks thats a good point so you counter with your own idiocy....for like....18 months?


When you spend your time here arguing all day from someone elses stupid perspective....does it alter your own?

Id actually be interested in what some of you think about some things. But we mostly seem to get your version of what you think makes someone else stupid.

We all delve into pointing out the flaws in an argument using another example or whatever. But to built entire personas and spend months on arguments you initially claimed you didnt believe....

Dont you get lost? A lot of you seem pretty lost is all....

sounds like a poster i know here who posts wall of texts defending some 2nd option HOFer like a some kind of hybrid Magic, Hakeem, Lebron, MJ all in one

[Horatio33]

https://i.imgflip.com/4jyxlh.jpg

I agree 99% of trolling is pointless but now and again you get gems like this. I prefer Jordan to LeBron but this picture is just funny. It sort of mocks both sides.

[8Ball]

Kblaze

You let someone like 3ball spam post his copy paste threads every day....

[ThatCoolKid]

I knew Lebron was a greater player than Kobe in 2009. You just had to watch with your own two eyes and it was obvious to see even if Kobe was winning chips on the better team.

Chips are obviously dependent on your team and the strength of your competition. I honestly thought anyone who thought Kobe was the better player than Lebron because of "rangzzz" was stupid even though I was a kid at the time. Lebron could singlehandedly carry a team a la 2007 ECF, just because his second option was Mo Williams didn't mean he wasn't the best player on the planet.

I was too young to ever watch MJ play, I've only watched games of his on youtube. I admit that MJ's peak is undoubtedly either equal to Lebron's or a little bit higher. But they are extremely close in terms of the impact they have on the game, and Lebron has been doing it longer than MJ has. I think anyone with an ounce of objectivity realizes that the comparison is getting closer and closer as the years go on. I can understand still ranking MJ above Lebron because he was a great player, but I really do think that 10-20 years from now it's not going to be a consensus that MJ was better than Lebron.

That being said, there are stupid reasons to believe MJ is greater than Lebron I have no respect for people who act like finals losses are the reason why Lebron can't be the GOAT. The teams that Lebron had to face in the finals are simply better than the teams MJ had to face. The level of talent and depth in the NBA is so much greater. Players are more skilled at shooting, defenses have become much more sophisticated. The international talent pool has grown exponentially - we have generational talents like Giannis and Luka coming in from abroad. With increased player mobility and freedom, players and teams don't sit around just getting dunked on by the GOAT candidates year after year - they actually realize they have to make changes to the roster to upgrade to take their shot at the championship.

The other reason - 2011 I am a little more sympathetic to. Some will think 2011 automatically disqualifies someone from being the GOAT. "MJ was perfect, he would have won in 2011."

Lebron in 2011 was overwhelmed with the pressure. He had never won in the Finals and was being flanked by a FMVP teammate who had. There was so much pressure on him after so many years of coming up short with garbage teams. He deferred to Wade and was afraid to play his game. And Wade just frankly wasn't good enough to win that series.

But what makes Lebron the GOAT in my mind is what comes after 2011. This guy was touted as being the next GOAT from his high school days and the entire world hated him for leaving a trash organization and attempt to make his own destiny. The entire world was jeering him after 2011. The pressure was only going to increase from here. No player in the history of sports had ever faced that level of scrutiny. MJ never had that level of scrutiny. How did Lebron respond?

He develops a post game. He comes out the next season and wins MVP. On the brink of elimination in Game 6 in Boston against the super team the made his life hell for all those years he puts the team on his back and puts up the performance of a lifetime. He's not shrinking anymore. He knows he's the best, and he's going to play his game. If that means shooting like in the 2013 Finals in G6 where he was pulling the trigger on those 3s with no hesitation - that's what he'll do. If that means making the pass to the open shooter - that's what he'll do.

Lebron, under the most pressure of any athlete in history, took his game to the next level and delivered - even against all time great opponents like the 2013 Spurs. And then to me - there is no doubt in my mind that MJ would not have been able to beat the GSW in 2016. MJ always won when he was supposed to, but never beat a team that he was supposed to lose to. That 2016 championship is the most legendary comeback in the history of sports. Game 5, 6, and 7 from Lebron was the greatest 3 games any NBA player has ever played. Up against one of the greatest teams of all time Lebron delivered again when everyone was counting him out.

2017 and 2018 Lebron's greatest rivals teamed up because they knew they couldn't beat him alone and created the greatest team of all time. But even then, you could still see Lebron was the best player on the court even if KD was feasting off of Steph and Klay's gravity. 2018 G1 I literally couldn't believe my eyes. I've never seen anyone singlehandedly take over a game like that before. The Cavs were completely outmatched and yet Lebron had them looking like the better team. And the Cavs absolutely should have won that game if not from shitty ref calls, Grant Hill missing a FT, and JR forgetting the score.

[ThatCoolKid]

Pt 2 continued


2020 was a similar story. Everyone was calling Lebron old, the Lakers a meme team. Let's be real, the Lakers were not at all a title favorite to start this season. Everyone was saying they had no shooting, that they would be a 5-8 seed and likely bounced in the 1st round, that Kawhi had surpassed Lebron, yada yada yada. If Lebron had lost with AD as his teammate everyone once again would have been shitting on him all over again. And yet here we are, once again with Lebron overcoming the odds and winning.

Before this year I had MJ as the GOAT and Lebron as #2. But after seeing Lebron do this over and over, winning and showing he's the best when everyone has already counted him out over and over it's becoming hard to keep it that way. MJ was dominant, he was always expected to win. And when he was favored - he delivered. But he also played in a league where stars were tied down to one place, and played in a less talented and sophisticated league that required less in terms of pure basketball play to win. He was drafted to a franchise that was able to surround him with superior talent.

And MJ did deliver when given great teams. But Lebron has been able to go to places without superior talent and make them into champions. And he's done it for 3 teams now. Against rivals teaming up against him, against superior talent, against modern strategies, against all the odds.

Lebron's done for longer and against the harder odds compared to MJ. In the Last dance you see how exausted Jordan is after year 13. He even had to take an early retirement after his first 3 peat. If he doesn't do that you would have seen even more losses like the 1995 loss to the Magic. Jordan had to straight-up retire due to the strain of carrying that GOAT load in the finals year in and year out is. But here is Lebron, year 17, still coming. He just has no quit. That's why in 10 years I think Lebron will be considered the GOAT.

[Micku]

Lebron, under the most pressure of any athlete in history, took his game to the next level and delivered - even against all time great opponents like the 2013 Spurs. And then to me - there is no doubt in my mind that MJ would not have been able to beat the GSW in 2016. MJ always won when he was supposed to, but never beat a team that he was supposed to lose to. That 2016 championship is the most legendary comeback in the history of sports. Game 5, 6, and 7 from Lebron was the greatest 3 games any NBA player has ever played. Up against one of the greatest teams of all time Lebron delivered again when everyone was counting him out.


That's the main thing that I disagree with.

I think that's the one thing that gets overlooked because with hindsight of MJ being so successful, the younger generation, including myself, who didn't watch him play in the late 80s and early 90s may not be aware of the small details that was surrounding him at the time or the criticisms, even by the haters. So, ppl may not be aware when ppl counted him out.

MJ totally won when he wasn't supposed to. His entire 89 playoffs was him proving that he could carry a team. The playoff battle was pretty crazy and MJ faced against the Cavs. They had 57 wins while the Bulls had 47. They weren't suppose to win that series. Cavs had second best defense in the league, one of the best offense. MJ torched them, averaging like 40 ppg and hit the game winner to end the series. MJ carried the team all the way till the conference finals, and they were suppose to be out in the first round. Plus all the criticism about him not making his teammates better, him playing selfish basketball, that he he was the best individual talent, but he isn't Magic/Bird who play unselfishly. If there was any year that criticism was being challenged, it was that year and 88.

Plus ppl don't remember that the Bulls, despite having the best record in 1991, wasn't really favor to win against the Lakers. While Portland was supposed to be in the finals, the Lakers ended up beating them cause Portland choke. The thought was the west was stacked that year. Despite MJ being the best individual player, Magic was the ultimate team player and probably the best player overall in the team game. Magic is the winner, already experienced along with Worthy and Byron Scott. The Bulls were the underdogs by the ppl, but not by Vegas odds.
You can check it out here, the commentators mentioned what ppl thought. 6:20 min mark to 7:30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9WB5fAoisg&feature=emb_logo#t=06m20s

I believe the impression that we get that MJ never beat a team that he wasn't suppose to beat is because of his stellar play. He was so dominant, so some of the little things just got lost in time that otherwise wasn't true in the moment.

It's the same thing with the Lakers of 2020. How ppl expect the Lakers to struggle and not win will probably get lost in time despite having the best record in the western conference.

And imo, you can't really compare the two. They play in different eras with different rules and that has pros and cons to everything.

MJ pros were: Not as stacked in the 80s. League expansion. Rules favor one on one play.
Cons: Defense was more physical and harder for perimeter players. Favors big men. Harder to score. The spacing was shit. Hard fouls was part of the game.

LeBron era pros: rules favor perimeter players. Spacing is at all time high. Small ball decreases rim protection.
Cons: Zone defense. Defense is quicker with the help and more sophisticated. Talent pool and super teamups are more common (granted LeBron started that). His finals opponents with the GSW is an all time great.

There are more details I could go on about the different eras and circumstances that go with each player, but I think you get the point.

[Micku]

I also agree that I think LeBron longevity is something we rarely see. I think he has been greater longer than anybody in history in level of play. Kareem and Karl Malone are normally the ones you compare. MJ was great at 35 too, but LeBron has the mileage and I think is better at the same age. As I said, it's hard to compare due to the rules of the game, but LeBron athleticism is still crazy. Like he lost a step for sure, but he still amazing. If LeBron continues this level of play, I think MJ won't be the consensus GOAT anymore either.

However, I don't think there is a GOAT anyway. I think it's by tiers. Like Shaq peak is still amazing. MJ prime is amazing. LeBron. Bird. Magic. Hakeem, Duncan. I haven't seen enough of prime Kareem just yet or Wilt and Russell, but those guys are amazing. It's easier for me to say who is the GOAT at their position than to say the GOAT overall. You have to take too many factors into the equation. Even stats are questionable and have a lot of details you have to go over. Pacing, rules, style of play. Rings are a factor, but the not the major one. It depends on the competition, how dominant you were, the team you are on. And you can make the argument that players make scarifices in order to improve the team. So their stats aren't the best, but they win. We can't really judge that, but we know it happens. Wilt did it. Wilt could've stretch those records out if he wanted to. Bird could've scored more. Magic could've scored more. MJ could've filled the stat sheet if he wanted to. Shaq could've (should've) rebounded more. Lazy ass.

[EllEffEll]

It's difficult for the lucid posters to be heard over the din of the stans moshing and trolling at mach frequency, but (as evidenced here by the objectivity of some of the previous posters) there are quality posts/posters if you can stand sifting through the garbage posts.

I just wonder if the trolls and stans (some that bother to make alternate accounts so they can pat themselves on the back) think they are influencing anyone worthy of influencing?

"Good analysis, my friend!" LOL

Not sure I have ever seen anything quite like it.

[KirbyPls]

LeQuatro has ruined even the best posters. Many such cases.

:cheers:

[ThatCoolKid]

That's the main thing that I disagree with.

I think that's the one thing that gets overlooked because with hindsight of MJ being so successful, the younger generation, including myself, who didn't watch him play in the late 80s and early 90s may not be aware of the small details that was surrounding him at the time or the criticisms, even by the haters. So, ppl may not be aware when ppl counted him out.

MJ totally won when he wasn't supposed to. His entire 89 playoffs was him proving that he could carry a team. The playoff battle was pretty crazy and MJ faced against the Cavs. They had 57 wins while the Bulls had 47. They weren't suppose to win that series. Cavs had second best defense in the league, one of the best offense. MJ torched them, averaging like 40 ppg and hit the game winner to end the series. MJ carried the team all the way till the conference finals, and they were suppose to be out in the first round. Plus all the criticism about him not making his teammates better, him playing selfish basketball, that he he was the best individual talent, but he isn't Magic/Bird who play unselfishly. If there was any year that criticism was being challenged, it was that year and 88.

Plus ppl don't remember that the Bulls, despite having the best record in 1991, wasn't really favor to win against the Lakers. While Portland was supposed to be in the finals, the Lakers ended up beating them cause Portland choke. The thought was the west was stacked that year. Despite MJ being the best individual player, Magic was the ultimate team player and probably the best player overall in the team game. Magic is the winner, already experienced along with Worthy and Byron Scott. The Bulls were the underdogs by the ppl, but not by Vegas odds.
You can check it out here, the commentators mentioned what ppl thought. 6:20 min mark to 7:30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9WB5fAoisg&feature=emb_logo#t=06m20s

I believe the impression that we get that MJ never beat a team that he wasn't suppose to beat is because of his stellar play. He was so dominant, so some of the little things just got lost in time that otherwise wasn't true in the moment.

My point still stands. Just because some people favored a team that had won 5 times previously does not mean Bulls were actually underdogs. Vegas had them as comfortable favorites. That indicates that the people paying attention and putting their money on the line knew the Bulls were the more talented team - which they were. They had home court advantage. Better margin of victory. Both Worthy and Russel were injured in that series and would both miss Game 5 too by the way. Worthy had injured his ankle in the WCF against Portland. Jordan also got lucky by not having to play Portland that year who were considered the favorites.

You bring up 1989 as an upset. The only series that Jordan ever won as the underdog in vegas odds was that 1989 Cavs team and they were not a historically great team. Just a run of the mill two seed. Mark Price, Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance are not historically relevant players. Do you talk about Lebron beating the 2015 Atlanta Hawks with Love out and Kyrie injured as some incredible upset? That 1989 upset is frankly not impressive at all compared to Lebron's body of work in upsets. Lebron beating the 2007 Pistons is a much more significant upset - that team had a NBA champion nucleus and nobody expected Lebron to win that series. Is MJ upsetting Mark Price really in the same universe? And that is literally the only series that Jordan won as the Vegas underdog. And this didn't happen in the Finals, it happened in the first round.

So my point still stands. Jordan won when he was supposed to. Lost when he wasn't. Beating a two seed in the first round one year and not even making the Finals and flaming out against the Pistons, isn't on the same level as what Lebron has accomplished as the underdog.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ totally won when he wasn't supposed to. His entire 89 playoffs was him proving that he could carry a team. The playoff battle was pretty crazy and MJ faced against the Cavs.

The problem is with MJ whenever he lost it is reverse engineered to be attributed completely to his teammates after the fact, when as you noted, at the time MJ took some of the blame.

With stuff like 89', Jordan advocates point to stats to say he had no help but his own coach wanted MJ to stop hogging the ball in the playoffs. You can't "help" standing around watching MJ shooting over multiple defenders. From his Backpicks' profile:


But when he entered the league, Jordan’s shot selection redefined “shoot-first.” No player in history likely took so many double, triple and even quadruple-teamed shots:

Look at this play--multiple teammates are open but MJ decides to take a shot with 4 Houston defenders on him:

https://youtu.be/O6EAuM0p4Rk

He missed, so that is "no help."


His tendency to pass up open teammates prompted me to track just how frequently he missed opportunities to create for them.2 From 1985-88, he created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays. Ironically, some of the most efficient offense is generated by simply passing to open players, and he missed layup opportunities as well as spot-up shooters with regularity

Here, Jordan misses 3 different chances to pass to an open teammate on one play, electing to shoot over multiple Piston defenders: https://youtu.be/Za-1HILs-6U

How are his teammates supposed to score when MJ is doing this? The Bulls started to win when he started to play more team ball.

[dankok8]

The problem is with MJ whenever he lost it is reverse engineered to be attributed completely to his teammates after the fact, when as you noted, at the time MJ took some of the blame.

With stuff like 89', Jordan advocates point to stats to say he had no help but his own coach wanted MJ to stop hogging the ball in the playoffs. You can't "help" standing around watching MJ shooting over multiple defenders. From his Backpicks' profile:



Look at this play--multiple teammates are open but MJ decides to take a shot with 4 Houston defenders on him:

https://youtu.be/O6EAuM0p4Rk

He missed, so that is "no help."



Here, Jordan misses 3 different chances to pass to an open teammate on one play, electing to shoot over multiple Piston defenders: https://youtu.be/Za-1HILs-6U

How are his teammates supposed to score when MJ is doing this? The Bulls started to win when he started to play more team ball.

Honestly I'd argue that MJ is on the short list of most capable rookies ever. From setting his foot in the league, he knew how to play the right way. Remember he came from a winning UNC program. He knew how to get others involved but in years like 1989 there was no one to really depend on. MJ was looking to score and rightfully so. I know it's conjecture that can't be proven but I really don't think the 1989 Bulls would have done better if Jordan was deferring more to his teammates. Pippen wasn't ready yet and there was no one else who could hurt that bruising Detroit defense. In 1991, it was a different story.

The Bulls didn't start to win because MJ played more team ball. They started to win because the other players around him developed enough that they could play team ball. Sometimes teams need one man to carry them. I could point to 2006 Kobe as well. Those Lakers would have sucked more if Kobe was giving Smush Parker, Odom, Walton and Vujacic more shots.

[MadDog]

Playoff Jordan winning with "weak" offensive help. More so around 96-98. Kind of brushed it off as trolling, but then kept hearing more and more people say it. Re-watching the games though these people were right. :confusedshrug: Jordan carried the offensive/scoring load like no other player has. A complete carry job if there ever was one. And the stats placate this belief.

[Micku]

My point still stands. Just because some people favored a team that had won 5 times previously does not mean Bulls were actually underdogs. Vegas had them as comfortable favorites. That indicates that the people paying attention and putting their money on the line knew the Bulls were the more talented team - which they were. They had home court advantage. Better margin of victory. Both Worthy and Russel were injured in that series and would both miss Game 5 too by the way. Worthy had injured his ankle in the WCF against Portland. Jordan also got lucky by not having to play Portland that year who were considered the favorites.

You bring up 1989 as an upset. The only series that Jordan ever won as the underdog in vegas odds was that 1989 Cavs team and they were not a historically great team. Just a run of the mill two seed. Mark Price, Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance are not historically relevant players. Do you talk about Lebron beating the 2015 Atlanta Hawks with Love out and Kyrie injured as some incredible upset? That 1989 upset is frankly not impressive at all compared to Lebron's body of work in upsets. Lebron beating the 2007 Pistons is a much more significant upset - that team had a NBA champion nucleus and nobody expected Lebron to win that series. Is MJ upsetting Mark Price really in the same universe? And that is literally the only series that Jordan won as the Vegas underdog. And this didn't happen in the Finals, it happened in the first round.

So my point still stands. Jordan won when he was supposed to. Lost when he wasn't. Beating a two seed in the first round one year and not even making the Finals and flaming out against the Pistons, isn't on the same level as what Lebron has accomplished as the underdog.

They weren't necessary the most talented team, but they were the better team. James Worthy at the time was considered to be a better player than Pippen. And the Bulls didn't have any all-stars other than MJ. And of course you had Byron Scott and Divac and Sam Perkins. Pippen and Grant proved themselves that playoffs and got even better next year. But they had to work at it compared to previous year failure. You can argue, and I would agree, that just because you didn't get recognize for an award it don't mean you aren't at that level. You can definitely make that case. And while you do site James Worthy and Scott's injury, which is totally true. But ppl did forget that MJ got hurt as well and was battling an ankle injury if I can recall. It wasn't serious enough to the point where he had sit out the game tho. I believe Pippen was battling through something too?

And the reason why I brought his up is because of the notion of MJ never won as a underdog when he obviously did. While I am not doing a comparison to LeBron because I think his 2018, 2007, 2015 and 2016 are the ultimate upsets and underdog success stories. The fact he got 2018 and 2007 to the finals is amazing. But to say MJ never won a series when he was the underdog is not true. And I did cite that Vegas gave him the odds in 1991, but not the ppl. They gave him the odds in 1995 too, but he end up losing, despite them not having HCA and such. Of course in 1993 he didn't have HCA either and still won.

So, the point that you made about MJ never winning as the underdog becomes untrue. He already did. Through vegas odds. Through lack of HCA. Through the fans/critics doubting him. He did it all at least once. You can't just brush it aside and say he never did it when it's already proven that he did.

If you were to say he didn't the magnitude of being an underdog like LeBron was, then sure. Obviously.

[red1]

all sports fans are the same whether they're arguing in person amongst friends or posting online


most takes are shallow - people watch the nba like it's wrestling. they aren't paying attention to what's actually happening


and people are stubborn they'll stick to their bad takes even if they're obviously wrong


the reason arguing with trolls and haters is fun is two-fold


1. the gloating is obviously fun in a childish way. it makes you more invested in the game. you can feel the steam rising from their heads and you can sense the tears falling. watching haters like skip and michael rapaport hold that L fills me with glee- and being the entertainers they are they gave it to us eating their crow :applause: :oldlol:


2. people also naturally like comparing and categorizing things we do it all the time with everything. and sports scratches that itch - we like comparing things and haters make your arguments bulletproof



ie one guy says player A cant win without a superteam, that's why this player isnt a true great.


player A then goes on to win with two different teams and then the argument becomes "well player A didnt do this and didnt do that, and this happened and then that happened and then he didnt scratch his ass before hitting his freethrows the way a true great does" - that's called back-pedaling and is an automatic L.





in conclusion 3ball is a raging homosexual and I own his soul in a jar at home.

[Micku]

How are his teammates supposed to score when MJ is doing this? The Bulls started to win when he started to play more team ball.

I think it's a mixture of both development of his teammates, coaching, and MJ trusting more.

You always have the tradition argument whatever this one star player is better at taking a shot contested vs passing a ball to an open player.

It's legit, MJ had to learn to trust his teammates. He wasn't Magic or Bird. Phil Jackson had to coach into that. He told him hang out with his teammates more too. They are plenty of books and vids that discussed it. You even got a shot at Steve Kerr explaining that to KD while he was on the GSW to trust his teammates more. A team full of HOFs, lol.

But with that said, he did pass before Phil Jackson. It was just at certain situations where he could've done better.

Even if that clip with the Pistons, it doesn't tell full the story.

Like look, in that series in 88, right? Even in that very game, they double/triple MJ almost every time he had the ball. It wasn't like he never gave it up to the open man. He did. A lot of the time. What they would do, is swing the ball around. The ball would rotate from Vincent, to Pippen, back to Vincent and back to MJ. They would try to get the defense off of MJ. And MJ did a lot of off the ball movement, off the screens to get MJ open. Whenever MJ was at the top of the key, he would play one on one and usually make it. But on the baseline? Pistons would trap. But the problem was that the Bulls outside shooting wasn't falling if I can recall even while open. You even had the commentators saying that too. They turned the ball over a lot too. Vincent could beat Zeke off the dribble and head to the rim, but with MJ? They made sure they close that as much as possible. And Joe Dumars did a great job against MJ. Making sure he gets out of position enough to make it easier for the defense to trap.

That's what the Pistons wanted. They designed to focus on MJ and not let the one star beat them. They double/triple team almost every time he touched the ball, they crowded the paint, made sure whenever he drive, he would take a hit. They didn't think his teammates could hit the shot and granted, some of them couldn't.

I don't think they were ready in 88 or 89. MJ carried those teams.

You can find articles on it too in that very series.



''Detroit does a great job on me. They won't let me penetrate and I kept giving up the ball,'' said Jordan, who came into the game averaging 39.4 points in the playoffs after leading all scorers in the N.B.A. regular season with a 35-points-per-game average.

''They had three people playing Michael. That's not the problem,'' said Doug Collins, the Bulls' coach. ''The other guys aren't hitting their shots. They executed under pressure and we did not. That was the difference in playoff experience.''

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/16/sports/nba-playoffs-pistons-lead-series-against-bulls-3-1.html

[ImKobe]

I don't see an issue with people using other's logic/arguments against them. If someone has a dumb ass take, you should be allowed to use their way of reasoning against them.

[ThatCoolKid]

They weren't necessary the most talented team, but they were the better team. James Worthy at the time was considered to be a better player than Pippen. And the Bulls didn't have any all-stars other than MJ. And of course you had Byron Scott and Divac and Sam Perkins. Pippen and Grant proved themselves that playoffs and got even better next year. But they had to work at it compared to previous year failure. You can argue, and I would agree, that just because you didn't get recognize for an award it don't mean you aren't at that level. You can definitely make that case. And while you do site James Worthy and Scott's injury, which is totally true. But ppl did forget that MJ got hurt as well and was battling an ankle injury if I can recall. It wasn't serious enough to the point where he had sit out the game tho. I believe Pippen was battling through something too?

And the reason why I brought his up is because of the notion of MJ never won as a underdog when he obviously did. While I am not doing a comparison to LeBron because I think his 2018, 2007, 2015 and 2016 are the ultimate upsets and underdog success stories. The fact he got 2018 and 2007 to the finals is amazing. But to say MJ never won a series when he was the underdog is not true. And I did cite that Vegas gave him the odds in 1991, but not the ppl. They gave him the odds in 1995 too, but he end up losing, despite them not having HCA and such. Of course in 1993 he didn't have HCA either and still won.

So, the point that you made about MJ never winning as the underdog becomes untrue. He already did. Through vegas odds. Through lack of HCA. Through the fans/critics doubting him. He did it all at least once. You can't just brush it aside and say he never did it when it's already proven that he did.

If you were to say he didn't the magnitude of being an underdog like LeBron was, then sure. Obviously.

Okay, I amend my statement. MJ had one upset in the first round in 1989 against a Cavs teams with no historically relevant players. Literally the only series he won as the vegas underdog. Whatever you say about 1991, he was the favorite. In 1993 he was clearly the favorite.

So my previous statement is amended to as follows. MJ had no historically significant wins as the underdog with the exception of a first round upset against a 2 seed. When people peddle his 6 for 6 in the finals record, he was favored in every single one of those series. He would have had more losses had he not retired after his first 3 peat or retired after his second 3 peat since the load of going to the finals year after year is exhausting. He never had to go up against players who were joining forces specifically because they knew they couldn't beat him, or organizations that acquired superior star power with the intent of beating him specifically. He had the better hand and he cashed in 6 times. With the exception of one series in 1989 - as you've so meticulously detailed. I think that your counterexample actually further emphasizes how little MJ has done as the underdog. I feel even more confident in stating that Jordan won he was supposed to and lost when he wasn't. The fans/critics for MJ were nothing compared to Lebron.

As you've stated Lebron achieved infinitely more as the underdog. He had to overcome much more in terms of the level of his competitors, and in spite of it he managed to take 3 organizations and elevate them to championship contention.

[r0drig0lac]

All that means is Pippen was HUGE. Not necessarily MJ isn't packing. She was content with Pippen. LMAO @ these clowns straight reaching.

:yaohappy:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

all sports fans are the same whether they're arguing in person amongst friends or posting online


most takes are shallow - people watch the nba like it's wrestling. they aren't paying attention to what's actually happening


and people are stubborn they'll stick to their bad takes even if they're obviously wrong


the reason arguing with trolls and haters is fun is two-fold


1. the gloating is obviously fun in a childish way. it makes you more invested in the game. you can feel the steam rising from their heads and you can sense the tears falling. watching haters like skip and michael rapaport hold that L fills me with glee- and being the entertainers they are they gave it to us eating their crow :applause: :oldlol:


2. people also naturally like comparing and categorizing things we do it all the time with everything. and sports scratches that itch - we like comparing things and haters make your arguments bulletproof



ie one guy says player A cant win without a superteam, that's why this player isnt a true great.


player A then goes on to win with two different teams and then the argument becomes "well player A didnt do this and didnt do that, and this happened and then that happened and then he didnt scratch his ass before hitting his freethrows the way a true great does" - that's called back-pedaling and is an automatic L.





in conclusion 3ball is a raging homosexual and I own his soul in a jar at home.


I agree with this. I would also add that I think a lot of the LeBron-Jordan-Kobe trolling (on here) is done ironically. A sort of satire of NBA culture.

There are some posters who are absolutely serious (insane), like 3ball and the guy who said MJ was packing. But I think most, dubeta, Mr Jabbar, etc.. are just having some fun.

[Micku]

Okay, I amend my statement. MJ had one upset in the first round in 1989 against a Cavs teams with no historically relevant players. Literally the only series he won as the vegas underdog. Whatever you say about 1991, he was the favorite. In 1993 he was clearly the favorite.

So my previous statement is amended to as follows. MJ had no historically significant wins as the underdog with the exception of a first round upset against a 2 seed. When people peddle his 6 for 6 in the finals record, he was favored in every single one of those series. He would have had more losses had he not retired after his first 3 peat or retired after his second 3 peat since the load of going to the finals year after year is exhausting. He never had to go up against players who were joining forces specifically because they knew they couldn't beat him, or organizations that acquired superior star power with the intent of beating him specifically. He had the better hand and he cashed in 6 times. With the exception of one series in 1989 - as you've so meticulously detailed. I think that your counterexample actually further emphasizes how little MJ has done as the underdog. I feel even more confident in stating that Jordan won he was supposed to and lost when he wasn't. The fans/critics for MJ were nothing compared to Lebron.

As you've stated Lebron achieved infinitely more as the underdog. He had to overcome much more in terms of the level of his competitors, and in spite of it he managed to take 3 organizations and elevate them to championship contention.

And that's all I ask for.

You can say other players had better upsets. There are. Larry Bird did it in 1984 imo despite having a better record than the Lakers. I'm not too sure if MJ could've done that same thing. But I don't think he is a lesser player. It would've been a different team. Hakeem did it multiple times. Duncan did it multiple times too. And of course LeBron. But just because you did it, it doesn't mean you are the better player. Especially across eras like that. Like while Duncan pulled off an upset vs the Lakers twice, I wouldn't say he is a better player than Shaq. Same with Hakeem. And they did it while facing each other. Dirk pulled a upset over 2011 Heat. Could KG do the same thing in his shoes? Could Karl Malone? Could Barkley? Who knows. They probably wouldn't been the same team.

I'm not too sure if MJ would carry the same team like LeBron with the Cavs for example, right? But that team would've been different with MJ. Plus I don't know how exactly MJ would play in those rules. It's a slippery slope of what ifs. Like would MJ would've won in Miami 2011? If so, how would MJ and Wade play? What would happen if the Cavs weren't injury with Kyrie and Love in 2015? Would they win? So on and so fort.

But the bottom line is that LeBron did have legendary runs. He should absolutely get credit for it. I, for sure, thought they were no way they were gonn'a win in 2016. I didn't think they would get to the finals in 2018. But I also think that some of his teams could've been better. He had the talent in those Miami teams and the Cavs teams. They should've been similar to the GSW in 2015 or 2016, but never were. But regular season don't matter as long as you get done in the playoffs.

But the one thing that you mentioned is that MJ never had to face a teams which players teamed up to create a superstar. That just wasn't a thing at the time. They couldn't either. LeBron was the first one to do it too when he teamed up with Wade and Bosh. It happened through management and trades other than the player doing it. Like one could imagine all the different possibilities of team ups in the 90s. Hakeem joining the bulls with MJ and Pippen. That would've been sick. It would've been cool to see Barkley with Magic or Patrick Ewing. Or Patrick Ewing to the GSW at the time with Chris Mullin, Tim Hardaway, and Mitch Richmond.

It wasn't realistic and it wouldn't have happen. The only thing we could do is compare what a certain player do in their eras. I do think if LeBron keeps it up, it'll definitely be case of him being the GOAT in the future. I don't think there is a GOAT tho. Shaq at his peak? Kareem? Magic? Bird? MJ? That's a lot of great players. A certain luck is always involved. LeBron could've had 5 or 6 by now if Kyrie and K.Love didn't hurt or if KD didn't go to the GSW. But he could easily just be with 2 or 3 if that Ray Allen shot didn't fall in.

But one thing you can't take away from LeBron is his level of play. That's a rarity. A sight to behold. Ppl get too involved with fan love or hate to enjoy good basketball. Even when it's right in front of your eyes. They won't miss it till maybe after they retire or if that player plays for your team. Haha

[Micku]

I agree with this. I would also add that I think a lot of the LeBron-Jordan-Kobe trolling (on here) is done ironically. A sort of satire of NBA culture.

There are some posters who are absolutely serious (insane), like 3ball and the guy who said MJ was packing. But I think most, dubeta, Mr Jabbar, etc.. are just having some fun.

He said that? hahahaahah

I just enjoy good b-ball talk. The trolls in here are sometimes funny. Mr Jabbar cracks me up at times.

[ImKobe]

I agree with this. I would also add that I think a lot of the LeBron-Jordan-Kobe trolling (on here) is done ironically. A sort of satire of NBA culture.

There are some posters who are absolutely serious (insane), like 3ball and the guy who said MJ was packing. But I think most, dubeta, Mr Jabbar, etc.. are just having some fun.

C'mon, look at the size of MJ's hands..

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He said that? hahahaahah

I just enjoy good b-ball talk. The trolls in here are sometimes funny. Mr Jabbar cracks me up at times.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?420327-Most-Delusional-Fanbases-on-Here&p=12647671&viewfull=1#post12647671

The thread has since been deleted but SamuraiSWISH said it. There's a quick recap at that link. post #70 by Euroleague.

[Micku]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?420327-Most-Delusional-Fanbases-on-Here&p=12647671&viewfull=1#post12647671

The thread has since been deleted but SamuraiSWISH said it. There's a quick recap at that link. post #70 by Euroleague.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AbandonedAggravatingBoilweevil-size_restricted.gif

[And1AllDay]

It's difficult for the lucid posters to be heard over the din of the stans moshing and trolling at mach frequency, but (as evidenced here by the objectivity of some of the previous posters) there are quality posts/posters if you can stand sifting through the garbage posts.

I just wonder if the trolls and stans (some that bother to make alternate accounts so they can pat themselves on the back) think they are influencing anyone worthy of influencing?

"Good analysis, my friend!" LOL

Not sure I have ever seen anything quite like it.

Agreed. Good analysis, my friend

[coin24]

I think most people have fled from this forum and it’s just wonder wheels making 50 LeTiny threads a day replying to himself.

Jeff must be so proud of his little nephew