How many great playoff series did Wade have from 2011-2014? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 10:03 AM

bruh relax :oldlol:

post his 4 great series then (dont look in 2013 or 2014)

I dont know about great but he had more better ones than pip and thats really what this is about isnt it?
2011
22/9/5 44% fg
30/7/5 53% fg (out played lebron)
27/7/5 55% fg( out played lebron)
Wade had one bad series
2012
21/3/4 50% ( he was a beast defensively with more than 1 block a game and 3 steals a game)
26/5/3 47%
21/6/5 44%
23/6/4 44%
Wade had no bad series

2013
20/4/5 48% fg
Wade only had the one good series but it was the finals and most important one.

2014
18/3/4 50% fg
20/4/5 55% fg
This wasn't a great series for wade. Thing what most bron stans ignore though is that duncan was well past his prime and didn't have "great" help either. Kawhi played the best and he was a pup and didn't even score 20 a game. Plus bron is an elite defender so he should of been able to hold a young kawhi to under 57% shooting right?

So all in all bron stans exaggerate wades poor play with bron on the heat.

2014 was the only year wades poor play had any effect and even that is exaggerated because spurs didn't have any world beaters either.

Here's pips best series between 95-98

95
19/10/6 41%

96
19/11/7 56% fg (he was a beast defensively this series also)
19/7/7 45% fg
96 was over all a poor playoff for pip. He had 2 series at 16 pts and 35% shooting including the finals. Thats way worse than any of wades playoff runs with bron

97
22/6/6 43% fg
20/8/4 42% fg

98
18/7/6 44%
18/7/5 44%
Pip was pretty bad this playoff run. He was ok in the first 2 meaningless series but had about 16 pts on 40% in the last 2.

As you can see Pip was defensively worse than wade offensively but he was a better defender so its probably pretty close. Either way neither were world beaters overall

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 10:11 AM

You really shouldn't bad talk wade. If anything you should praise him. Without wade taking bron in and showing him how to win bron could very well be at no chips right now.

The irony. The guy with 2 chips, 6 finals would be ringless without his best teammate but the guy with 0 chips and 0 finals didn't need him. :lol

As to your comparison of Pippen 1995-1998 to Wade 2011-2014, let's check the tape. Both are four year periods so that makes the comp easier.

All-NBA 1st team: Pippen 2x, Wade 0x
All-NBA 1st/2nd team: Pippen 3x, Wade 1x
All-NBA: Pippen 4x, Wade 3x
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 1x, Wade 0x
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 3x, Wade 3x (Pippen 11th in the other year; Wade did not receive any votes in 14')
All-D 1st team: Pippen 4x, Wade 0x

It is funny, MJ stans will hype Kyrie Irving for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons (1 in 6 years in Cleveland) and never receiving a MVP vote (no LeBron teammate did in 11 years in Cleveland :oldlol: ) and then diminish a much more accomplished player.

18/7/6 44%
18/7/5 44%
Pip was pretty bad this playoff run. He was ok in the first 2 meaningless series but had about 16 pts on 40% in the last 2

Miller 17 on 41% (lower GS than Pippen, Kukoc)
Stockton 9.7 PPG (7 PPG on 7 FGA in Games 2-6 :oldlol: )

Pippen dominated on defense in both series--which you know but no MJ stan will give him credit for. The info is out there to Google for anyone who hasn't seen it but I suspect most people here have seen it covered--MJ stans just want to pretend otherwise.

Also notice he compares numbers eras apart at face value, the same people who talk about MJ scoring 45 or MJ being a lethal three point shooter today, etc.--all these era based adjustments towards higher scoring, efficiency.

Are they lying when they say it is easier to score today when they talk about today's players and anyone else from the 90's or are they lying when they say MJ's teammates would score the same on the same efficiency in this era?

HoopsNY

10-28-2020, 11:21 AM

The irony. The guy with 2 chips, 6 finals would be ringless without his best teammate but the guy with 0 chips and 0 finals didn't need him. :lol

As to your comparison of Pippen 1995-1998 to Wade 2011-2014, let's check the tape. Both are four year periods so that makes the comp easier.

All-NBA 1st team: Pippen 2x, Wade 0x
All-NBA 1st/2nd team: Pippen 3x, Wade 1x
All-NBA: Pippen 4x, Wade 3x
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 1x, Wade 0x
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 3x, Wade 3x (Pippen 11th in the other year; Wade did not receive any votes in 14')
All-D 1st team: Pippen 4x, Wade 0x

It is funny, MJ stans will hype Kyrie Irving for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons (1 in 6 years in Cleveland) and never receiving a MVP vote (no LeBron teammate did in 11 years in Cleveland :oldlol: ) and then diminish a much more accomplished player.

Miller 17 on 41% (lower GS than Pippen, Kukoc)
Stockton 9.7 PPG (7 PPG on 7 FGA in Games 2-6 :oldlol: )

Pippen dominated on defense in both series--which you know but no MJ stan will give him credit for. The info is out there to Google for anyone who hasn't seen it but I suspect most people here have seen it covered--MJ stans just want to pretend otherwise.

Also notice he compares numbers eras apart at face value, the same people who talk about MJ scoring 45 or MJ being a lethal three point shooter today, etc.--all these era based adjustments towards higher scoring, efficiency.

Are they lying when they say it is easier to score today when they talk about today's players and anyone else from the 90's or are they lying when they say MJ's teammates would score the same on the same efficiency in this era?

Business as usual for TheFakeBullsFan.

Employs a different set of arguments and doesn't focus on what the OP is actually saying. Providing no context and looking to downplay MJ again, lol.

You can't win with you, not because it's about winning, but because you create your own criteria that in some cases works against you. When others on this forum point it out, you switch parameters and then disqualify the previous argument, without actually addressing it.

Kiddlovesnets

10-28-2020, 11:27 AM

He was great in 2011 but they didnt win the title anyway.

starface

10-28-2020, 11:29 AM

He was great in 2011 but they didnt win the title anyway.

Mods.

Take care of this agitator please.

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 11:46 AM

The irony. The guy with 2 chips, 6 finals would be ringless without his best teammate but the guy with 0 chips and 0 finals didn't need him. :lol

As to your comparison of Pippen 1995-1998 to Wade 2011-2014, let's check the tape. Both are four year periods so that makes the comp easier.

All-NBA 1st team: Pippen 2x, Wade 0x
All-NBA 1st/2nd team: Pippen 3x, Wade 1x
All-NBA: Pippen 4x, Wade 3x
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 1x, Wade 0x
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 3x, Wade 3x (Pippen 11th in the other year; Wade did not receive any votes in 14')
All-D 1st team: Pippen 4x, Wade 0x

It is funny, MJ stans will hype Kyrie Irving for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons (1 in 6 years in Cleveland) and never receiving a MVP vote (no LeBron teammate did in 11 years in Cleveland :oldlol: ) and then diminish a much more accomplished player.

Miller 17 on 41% (lower GS than Pippen, Kukoc)
Stockton 9.7 PPG (7 PPG on 7 FGA in Games 2-6 :oldlol: )

Pippen dominated on defense in both series--which you know but no MJ stan will give him credit for. The info is out there to Google for anyone who hasn't seen it but I suspect most people here have seen it covered--MJ stans just want to pretend otherwise.

Also notice he compares numbers eras apart at face value, the same people who talk about MJ scoring 45 or MJ being a lethal three point shooter today, etc.--all these era based adjustments towards higher scoring, efficiency.

Are they lying when they say it is easier to score today when they talk about today's players and anyone else from the 90's or are they lying when they say MJ's teammates would score the same on the same efficiency in this era?

Your giving me regular season shit. My response to the op was specifically about wades playoff performance which as you saw wasnt great overall but wasnt terrible either, much like pip.

And i acknowledged pips edge on defense but all that does is close the gap wade had offensively. Plus its not like wade wasnt a great defender in his own right.

As far being easier to score now it all depends on positions and the player. Yes in general its much easier to score for perimeter players because of the rules put in place. Pace and style of play have a role in that also. Im not sure how that applies to wade and pip though because most of those factors were just after most of wades career. That decision is more for the players of today.

HoopsNY

10-28-2020, 11:47 AM

Your giving me regular season shit. My response to the op was specifically about wades playoff performance which as you saw wasnt great overall but wasnt terrible either, much like pip.

And i acknowledged pips edge on defense but all that does is close the gap wade had offensively. Plus its not like wade wasnt a great defender in his own right.

As far being easier to score now it all depends on positions and the player. Yes in general its much easier to score for perimeter players because of the rules put in place. Pace and style of play have a role in that also. Im not sure how that applies to wade and pip though because most of those factors were just after most of wades career. That decision is more for the players of today.

It's what he does. Then will accuse you of hating Pippen. Watch him comeback with 100 irrelevant points.

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 11:57 AM

It's what he does. Then will accuse you of hating Pippen. Watch him comeback with 100 irrelevant points.

Yeah i definitely dont hate pip. I think pip was a great player but i find most mj stans dont give him enough credit and most bron stans give him to much. Pip was a great defender but that was really the only thing he was great at. Thing is mj was just as great on that end. As was rod. It was the combination of them that made the bulls defense what it was but most bron stans seem to credit pip for the majority of it.

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 12:03 PM

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 12:27 PM

The point is you, and your ilk, are comparing across eras knowing full well that scoring and efficiency are inflated in this era (which you all are awfully quick to point out when it comes to anything but this narrow agenda). You don't want any within era comparisons because it would undercut or destroy (depending on the context) your misleading point.

20 PPG in 2014 isn't the same as 20 PPG in 1998. The Bulls scored 88 PPG in the 98' finals, the Jazz 80 PPG. You expect 25 PPG when scoring is that low? It was that low due to pace but also due to lower efficiency via tougher defenses. MJ stan favorite Stockton had a 2 point game and was 7 PPG for games 2-6. Same series.

He was a top 10 scorer w/out MJ in 94' and 95'. He was an elite rebounder for a wing. He was a strong playmaker. His entire reputation in the 90's was his all-around play. Coaches voted him the best all-around player in 95' in a USA Today survey. Yet he is presented as Ben Wallace by MJ stans. :lol Here is Bill Simmons:

You can't be the best or second best "all-around" player if you are a one dimensional player. Keep trying to re-write history for younger people, though. :(

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/4/19/21225904/scottie-pippen-bill-simmons-book-of-basketball-hall-of-fame-pyramid

Again the difference in era's dosnt apply as much when comparing pip and wade. When wade played the pace and points scored was very close to what it was when mj played. That includes his time with bron so once again thats a mute point. The bulls scored 93 points a game in the 98 playoffs the heat scored 97 in the 2014 playoffs. How much of that difference is pips offense really benefitting? 1 point maybe. Oh that was the same in 2013 btw and in if you compare heat 2012 to bulls 1996 its almost even and 2011 heat actually scored more points a game in the playoff than the 1995 bulls so again what your saying is absolutely irrelevant.

And pip was a good scorer he wasn't a great one. You've seen his scoring performances throughout the playoffs. He's never been a consistent elite scorer. He's also a good passer and rebounder but elite is a stretch. He's not up there with the elite passers like magic and stocton and he's not up there with any of the elite rebounders. Pip was really great at defense and really good to good at everything else.

MadDog

10-28-2020, 12:29 PM

Better series? 2011 Wade was literally better for an ENTIRE playoff run. :oldlol: In that postseason, Wade averaged more PPG and shot the ball better, had a higher PER/BPM/VORP and played better defense. If it weren't for LeBron's disastrous play, Wade would have another FMVP. We'd also be talking about TWO TEAMS where LeBron played the secondary role. :oldlol:

HoopsNY

10-28-2020, 12:32 PM

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 12:49 PM

Interesting, Bronbron. So I'll file that away when we hear about handchecking, spacing, less rim protection, faster pace, etc. in future threads. The same factors that would cause MJ to go from 33 PPG then to 45 PPG today but would keep Pippen exactly the same. :lol

It's an odd argument for MJ stans to make. His comp's numbers pale in comparison to LeBron's comps (which is why you never see them posted :oldlol: ) and LeBron's scoring fares well compared to MJ's in the playoffs and he crushes him in rebounding, assists--all true if we make the assume assumption that there is no era difference in boosting these stats (stat inflation is not an a la carte menu--Pippen, Kukoc, etc. were in the same offense, same team, same era facing the same defenses as MJ).

He's never been a consistent elite scorer. He's also a good passer and rebounder but elite is a stretch.

Here is Ben Taylor comparing Pippen's rebounding to other SF/SG/PG historically:

He was always a phenomenal rebounder, and his peak defensive rebounding rate (19.4 percent) ranks in the 99th percentile among non-bigs

That’s the 34th-best defensive rebounding rate for non-bigs and the 22nd-best relative rate (+5.8 percent) ever.

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

:confusedshrug:

MadDog

10-28-2020, 12:51 PM

Good post, HoopsNY. Facts are kryptonite for the contingent :oldlol:

Yeah i definitely dont hate pip. I think pip was a great player but i find most mj stans dont give him enough credit and most bron stans give him to much. Pip was a great defender but that was really the only thing he was great at. Thing is mj was just as great on that end. As was rod. It was the combination of them that made the bulls defense what it was but most bron stans seem to credit pip for the majority of it.

Pippen was GARBAGE on offense during the second 3-peat. Averaged ~17 points on 40% shooting and only put up 5 assists. He wasn't a good scorer and definitely wasn't John Stockton either (LeBron fans literally pretend that he is :oldlol:). Jordan carried Chicago's offense like no other great has, and three-peating backs that up.

HoopsNY

10-28-2020, 12:52 PM

Interesting. So I'll file that away when we hear about handchecking, spacing, less rim protection, faster pace, etc. in future threads. The same factors that would cause MJ to go from 33 PPG then to 45 PPG today but would keep Pippen exactly the same. :lol

There's nothing interesting here. Do I say MJ would average 45 PPG in today's game, let alone 45 PPG between 2010-2014? No. In that same thread, I said 33-35 PPG is possible. Furthermore, where did I say Pippen wouldn't average more in today's game?

Once again, you conflate what it is that I say with what others on this forum say. At least READ what I say man.

HoopsNY

10-28-2020, 12:54 PM

Good post, HoopsNY. Facts are kryptonite for the contingent :oldlol:

Pippen was GARBAGE on offense during the second 3-peat. Averaged ~17 points on 40% shooting and only put up 5 assists. He wasn't a good scorer and definitely wasn't John Stockton either (LeBron fans literally pretend that he is :oldlol:). Jordan carried Chicago's offense like no other great has, and three-peating backs that up.

He wasn't garbage in 1997. He was injured in 1996 and injured in the ECF of 1998, as well as the finals. Some context is important bro.

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 01:04 PM

Let's compare perimeter #1's in the finals for a quick check. If the #1 was a big, let's look at their best perimeter option.

91' Magic 19 PPG on 48%
92' Drexler 25 PPG on 41%
93' Johnson 17 PPG on 42%
96' Payton 18 PPG on 44%
97' Stockton 15 PPG on 50%
98' Stockton 9.7 PPG on 49% (7 PPG on 41% in Games 2-6--had one good game)

20 PPG must have been hard in the 90's--or the players simply not good enough if we accept the line of reasoning MJ stans put forward that PPG plus FG%=how well a player played--since no one seems to be able to crack 20+ against the Bulls, especially perimeter players. :lol

How about the same for LeBron's comp?

07' Parker 25 PPG on 57%
11' Terry 18 PPG on 49%
12' KD 31 PPG on 55%
13' Parker 16 PPG on 41%
14' Kawhi 18 PPG on 61%
15' Curry 26 PPG on 44%
16' Curry 23 PPG on 40%
17' KD 35 PPG on 56%
18' KD 29 PPG on 53%
20' Butler 26 PPG on 55%

Damn. The LeBron comp numbers blow away Jordan's comp in the only category MJ stans care about. Even Jason Terry who is a meme is scoring as much as Payton on higher efficiency and blowing away Stockton (whose 98' numbers resemble 11' Kidd).

MadDog

10-28-2020, 01:16 PM

He wasn't garbage in 1997. He was injured in 1996 and injured in the ECF of 1998, as well as the finals. Some context is important bro.

He was garbage by star standards. Not only that, but Wade played with injuries throughout 2011-2014. Why isn't he given an excuse?

91' Magic 19 PPG on 48%
97' Stockton 15 PPG on 50%
98' Stockton 9.7 PPG on 49%

Magic and Stockon being "judged" for their PPG, in one series mind you, yet we are to ignore their double-digit assists :confusedshrug: Don't bring up Pippen either. He maxed out at 5 during the second 3-peat :oldlol:

HoopsNY

10-28-2020, 01:19 PM

He was garbage by star standards. Not only that, but Wade played with injuries throughout 2011-2014. He's not given an excuse, so what about that "context"?

That context definitely matters. But it's tough to say a star player is garbage given him dealing with injuries. We can admire MJ's ability to still produce and lead his team to victories despite having to deal with those injuries. The same can be said about LeBron.

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 01:44 PM

Interesting, Bronbron. So I'll file that away when we hear about handchecking, spacing, less rim protection, faster pace, etc. in future threads. The same factors that would cause MJ to go from 33 PPG then to 45 PPG today but would keep Pippen exactly the same. :lol

It's an odd argument for MJ stans to make. His comp's numbers pale in comparison to LeBron's comps (which is why you never see them posted :oldlol: ) and LeBron's scoring fares well compared to MJ's in the playoffs and he crushes him in rebounding, assists--all true if we make the assume assumption that there is no era difference in boosting these stats (stat inflation is not an a la carte menu--Pippen, Kukoc, etc. were in the same offense, same team, same era facing the same defenses as MJ).

Here is Ben Taylor comparing Pippen's rebounding to other SF/SG/PG historically:

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

:confusedshrug:

Ok well if you wanna be more specific and say he's a great rebou der for a non big than thats a different story but thats like saying mj is an elite passer for a shooting gaurd. Both are elite at their position for sure.

And again we're talking about wades generation which isnt this generation. Theres a pretty big difference between just 6 years ago and now. Before that there wasnt as much of a difference between era's as far as defense, pace and scoring. And im pretty sure i was one of the mj fans that said mj wouldn't score 45 in this era and he for damn sure wouldn't come close to that in wades era.

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 01:46 PM

Good post, HoopsNY. Facts are kryptonite for the contingent :oldlol:

Pippen was GARBAGE on offense during the second 3-peat. Averaged ~17 points on 40% shooting and only put up 5 assists. He wasn't a good scorer and definitely wasn't John Stockton either (LeBron fans literally pretend that he is :oldlol:). Jordan carried Chicago's offense like no other great has, and three-peating backs that up.

I wouldn't say he was garbage but if one of bron second options put up those numbers along side bron thats definitely what they would say.

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 01:48 PM

He wasn't garbage in 1997. He was injured in 1996 and injured in the ECF of 1998, as well as the finals. Some context is important bro.

He definitely wasn't garbage but its irrelevant if he was hurt or not. The fact was he wasnt an elite scorer during that time in the post season.

Gus Hemmingway

10-28-2020, 02:04 PM

He was garbage by star standards. Not only that, but Wade played with injuries throughout 2011-2014. Why isn't he given an excuse?

Magic and Stockon being "judged" for their PPG, in one series mind you, yet we are to ignore their double-digit assists :confusedshrug: Don't bring up Pippen either. He maxed out at 5 during the second 3-peat :oldlol:

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 02:08 PM

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

Don't expect an answer. :lol In the funhouse mirrors of Jordanstan, that never happened nor did Rodman get FMVP consideration in 96' (though they will slob Kemp for the same). MJ won all by himself, carrying those scrubs! Pippen sucked. 16 PPG is unacceptable, even when injured late in the series (it was 20 PPG before then and Kukoc was 23 PPG those final 2 games filling the void). How can 16 PPG be enough when Stockton is putting up a dominant 7 outside of Game 1? If 16 PPG sucks (defense, rebounding, etc. doesn't count), then Stockton logically is a joke, right?

It is a shame the NBA doesn't issue all-Playoff teams so another BS talking point MJ stains rely on could be eliminated. They like to hide behind "Oh, it is the RS!" to ignore much superior RS accolades, as if we have all-NBA data for the PO. If the PO had an all-Playoff 1st/2nd/3rd team, guess who would be on them? :oldlol:

In 97' some in the media said Pippen may have been the Bulls' playoff MVP (e.g., Marv Albert during the NBA finals or Sports Illustrated in a Game 1 of the NBA finals write up). MJ stans will swear up and down Pippen sucked during that run. You can't trust them.

Ok well if you wanna be more specific and say he's a great rebou der for a non big than thats a different story but thats like saying mj is an elite passer for a shooting gaurd. Both are elite at their position for sure.

Yeah, and MJ was an elite rebounder for a SG too. That stuff matters. They won Game 7 of the 98' ECF because Pippen and Jordan crashed the boards--Miller didn't nor did Indiana's post players. Moreover, there will be games or series or even playoff runs where a player does not perform up to par (due to injuries or otherwise). Pippen was able to increase his rebounding whenever Grant's decreased or when Grant was not there (10 RPG against Orlando). I haven't looked at MJ's RPG during the same runs but I assume he increased as well. Having players who can do this expands your margin for error when Grant is doing something like averaging 6 RPG against Oakley.

And again we're talking about wades generation which isnt this generation. Theres a pretty big difference between just 6 years ago and now. Before that there wasnt as much of a difference between era's as far as defense, pace and scoring

The biggest change occurred going into the 05' season. All anyone has to do is see perimeter star scoring in 03', 04' and compare it against the same for 05', 06'. Why is this surprising? The rules were changed to increase scoring for star perimeter players. That is exactly what happened. Stars are the ones who benefit from those type of changes, not role players.

Stockton put up 9.7 PPG in a NBA finals as a second option. These days your 7th option could score more than that and you can still lose, as Miami did in 20'.

MadDog

10-28-2020, 02:30 PM

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

Consideration? What is that, like Finals appearances for your clan? :yaohappy: Name another player who 3-peated, while his sidekick averaged ~17 on 40% shooting :confusedshrug: We get it. LeBron fans like "Roundball_Rock" love mentioning John Stockton, but the rest of us IN THE KNOW understand that Stockton dished double-digit assists throughout his career. Second 3-peat Pippen, in the playoffs, threw for 5 with 3 turnovers. No, that isn't a typo either :oldlol:

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 02:41 PM

For example, Gus, here is Sports Illustrated after Game 1 of the 97' NBA finals. In other words, after 14 of the 19 Bulls playoff games that year. Who are you going to believe? Respected reporters whose job was to tell their audience what happened in real time or MJ stans 23 years later?

JUN 9, 1997

EXTENDING HIMSELF NOT EVEN YOU KNOW WHO HAS BEEN MORE VALUABLE THAN SCOTTIE PIPPEN IN THE BULLS' POSTSEASON RUN

It is right there in the story's headline. :lol Yet people, all fans of the same player with an obvious agenda, 23 years later will swear he sucked during that playoff run.

For the better part of 10 years in Chicago, picking up four NBA
championship rings and two Olympic gold medals along the way,
Pippen has played the role of Jordan's sidekick. And though
Jordan's basket knocked another outstanding effort by Pippen out
of the headlines, Pippen's performance on Sunday certified that
he--as much as Jordan--has been the Bulls' MVP throughout the
postseason.

Subtle difference in the article versus the headline--but the headline is picked by the editor, not the reporter so it tells us what that person thought.

In many ways Pippen has been the Bulls' most consistent
performer this postseason, averaging 18.8 points, 6.1 rebounds
and 3.9 assists through Sunday while causing havoc on the
defensive end. It was Pippen who made the dunk that beat the
Washington Bullets in Game 3 of their first-round series, and it
was Pippen who shut down Heat forward Jamal Mashburn in the
Bulls' five-game series victory. "He has been unbelievable,"
says Chicago guard Steve Kerr. "He's hit some big shots. He
makes things easier on Michael."

Wait, I thought he never hit big shots? I read it here on ISH. :lol

Last year Pippen helped the Bulls to their fourth title in six
years while playing with a sore back, neck and foot, and last
week he spent hours undergoing treatment for his injured foot.
"During his therapy you could see he was in a lot of pain," says
Chicago forward Jud Buechler. "We had no idea before the game if
he could play at all, let alone as much as he did. But that's
Scottie."

This isn't relevant to 97' but it gives you context for 96'--MJ stans never mention he had a trio of injuries in the 96' playoffs (which we saw again in this thread). They would have lost the finals as a result (he overcame them in the ECF, we heard about game score earlier--he had a higher GS than peak Penny in both the 96' and 95' series. Ever see the same poster mention that? :oldlol:) but Rodman filled the void with a FMVP-worthy performance so they got away with it. That is the luxury of having 3 HOF players against 1 (Payton).

https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/06/09/extending-himself-not-even-you-know-who-has-been-more-valuable-than-scottie-pippen-in-the-bulls-postseason-run

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 03:53 PM

Don't expect an answer. In Jordanstan, that never happened nor did Rodman get FMVP consideration in 96'.

It is a shame the NBA doesn't issue all-Playoff teams. They like to hide behind "Oh, it is the RS!" to ignore much superior RS accolades, as if we have all-NBA data for the PO. If the PO had an all-NBA 1st/2nd/3rd team, guess who would be on them? :lol

In 97' some in the media called Pippen the Bulls' PO MVP.MJ stans will swear up and down Pippen sucked during that run. You can't trust them.

Yeah, and MJ was an elite rebounder for a SG too. That stuff matters. They won Game 7 of the 98' ECF because Pippen and Jordan crashed the boards--Miller didn't nor did Indiana's post players. Moreover, there will be games or series or even playoff runs where a player does not perform up to par (due to injuries or otherwise). Pippen was able to increase his rebounding whenever Grant's decreased or when Grant was not there (10 RPG against Orlando). I haven't looked at MJ's RPG during the same runs but I assume he increased as well. Having players who can do this expands your margin for error when Grant is doing something like averaging 6 RPG against Oakley.

The biggest change occurred going into the 05' season. All anyone has to do is see perimeter star scoring in 03', 04' and compare it against the same for 05', 06'. Why is this surprising? The rules were changed to increase scoring for star perimeter players. That is exactly what happened. Stars are the ones who benefit from those type of changes, not role players.

Stockton put up 9.7 PPG in a NBA finals as a second option. These days your 7th option could score more than that and you can still lose, as Miami did in 20'.

There were a few major changes in the last 20 years. 05 was one and recently was another. Id say the recent changes have had the most impact. From mj's 2nd 3 peat days until 06 there wasnt much difference . Fg attempts were the same, 3 pt attempts were the same pace was the same and pts per game were the same. Shit was pretty much identical. Its the last 5 or 6 years that everything has drastically changed. Fga's are up by 8 or so. 3"s are up by more than 10 a game. Pace is up by 8 and pts per game is up by more than 10. Style of play and the shot clock on a rebound have been a factor to that also.

As far as your stocton analogy it dosnt really work. As we already said there's a huge difference between mj's days and now. The argument is basically offense vs defense. The game was more slow, physical and defensive in mj's day and now its more fast,free and offensive now. The rule changes throughout the years achieved there intended purpose. So while your looking at it from a offensive perspective i could easily flip it and come at it from a defensive one and say something like in the late 90's you had to hold the supporting cast to low single digits to win. Now you can let bums score 10 plus a game and you can still win. I mean ya the 7th man on the roster can score 10 now but he also allows 10.

Hey Yo

10-28-2020, 04:04 PM

He was great in 2011 but they didnt win the title anyway.
Thats the thing....people say Wade showed James how to win, so how's that right if Wade showed James how to lose in 2011?

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 04:33 PM

BPM is adjusted within era so that gives us a window into relative performance. While we are at it, let's throw in Irving, since the people pushing Wade here are the same people who push Irving (I wonder why? :oldlol: ). To give him a fourth year to make the samples equally large, let's include 2019 (he didn't show up for the 18' playoffs).

Pippen 1995-1998: 5.9, 7.8, 5.1, 5.6
Wade 2011-2014: 8.4, 5.3, 3.1, 0.9
Irving 2015-2017/2019: 5.2, 6.0, 2.2, 2.5

Pippen PO BPM ranks: 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
Wade PO BPM ranks: 2nd, 10th, 25th, 60th (behind Lance Stephenson)
Irving PO BPM ranks: 11th, 10th, 34th, 31st

BPM doesn't even capture defense--there is no BPM point you get for wrecking the Utah and Indiana offenses. This tells us what we already know: Wade was excellent the first two years but tailed off considerably in the other two years. Pippen was consistent throughout the entire 1991-1998 run. He was 3rd and 14th in the two of eight runs MJ stains point to--Wade was 25th and 60th in two of the four. As to Irving, he peaked lower than the other two players and was inconsistent like Wade.

How about VORP?

Pippen PO VORP ranks 1995-1998: 16th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd
Wade PO VORP ranks 1995-1998: 1st, 4th, 8th, 27th
Irving VORP ranks 2015-2017/2019: 11th, 4th, 13th, 28th

VORP is a cumulative stat, like WS, so teams that make the finals will tend to have the top players since they played the most games. In 95' if the Bulls played as many games as the Rockets did, Pippen's VORP would have ranked 2nd behind MJ.

VORP also shows the same major falloff for Wade in 14'. He made the finals and still was 27th despite the extra games.

Earlier we heard we can't use RS accolades as measure of their status relative to the league in those seasons. Now we will hear we can't use PO advanced stats--only PPG. :oldlol:

While we are at it, let's throw in 1991-1993 for Pippen and combine them with 1995-1998 in an easy "table."

1991-1993/1995-1998 PO BPM ranks: 8th, 4th, 31st, 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
1991-1993/1995-1998 PO VORP ranks: 4th, 3rd, 12th, 16th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd

The consistency is remarkable, and as noted earlier, these don't account for elite defense.

As far as your stocton analogy it dosnt really work. As we already said there's a huge difference between mj's days and now. The argument is basically offense vs defense. The game was more slow, physical and defensive in mj's day and now its more fast,free and offensive now. The rule changes throughout the years achieved there intended purpose.

So you admit it. Then why are you comparing 1998 numbers to 2014 as if 20 PPG in 14' is the same as in 98'? :confusedshrug: Note that as soon as Stockton's 7 PPG was raised, suddenly the era mattered. :oldlol:

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 06:18 PM

BPM is adjusted within era so that gives us a window into relative performance. While we are at it, let's throw in Irving, since the people pushing Wade here are the same people who push Irving (I wonder why? :oldlol: ). To give him a fourth year to make the samples equally large, let's include 2019 (he didn't show up for the 18' playoffs).

Pippen 1995-1998: 5.9, 7.8, 5.1, 5.6
Wade 2011-2014: 8.4, 5.3, 3.1, 0.9
Irving 2015-2017/2019: 5.2, 6.0, 2.2, 2.5

Pippen PO BPM ranks: 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
Wade PO BPM ranks: 2nd, 10th, 25th, 60th (behind Lance Stephenson)
Irving PO BPM ranks: 11th, 10th, 34th, 31st

BPM doesn't even capture defense--there is no BPM point you get for wrecking the Utah and Indiana offenses. This tells us what we already know: Wade was excellent the first two years but tailed off considerably in the other two years. Pippen was consistent throughout the entire 1991-1998 run. He was 3rd and 14th in the two of eight runs MJ stains point to--Wade was 25th and 60th in two of the four. As to Irving, he peaked lower than the other two players and was inconsistent like Wade.

How about VORP?

Pippen PO VORP ranks 1995-1998: 16th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd
Wade PO VORP ranks 1995-1998: 1st, 4th, 8th, 27th
Irving VORP ranks 2015-2017/2019: 11th, 4th, 13th, 28th

VORP is a cumulative stat, like WS, so teams that make the finals will tend to have the top players since they played the most games. In 95' if the Bulls played as many games as the Rockets did, Pippen's VORP would have ranked 2nd behind MJ.

VORP also shows the same major falloff for Wade in 14'. He made the finals and still was 27th despite the extra games.

Earlier we heard we can't use RS accolades as measure of their status relative to the league in those seasons. Now we will hear we can't use PO advanced stats--only PPG. :oldlol:

While we are at it, let's throw in 1991-1993 for Pippen and combine them with 1995-1998 in an easy "table."

1991-1993/1995-1998 PO BPM ranks: 8th, 4th, 31st, 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
1991-1993/1995-1998 PO VORP ranks: 4th, 3rd, 12th, 16th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd

The consistency is remarkable, and as noted earlier, these don't account for elite defense.

So you admit it. Then why are you comparing 1998 numbers to 2014 as if 20 PPG in 14' is the same as in 98'? :confusedshrug: Note that as soon as Stockton's 7 PPG was raised, suddenly the era mattered. :oldlol:

No dude when i say mj's days and now i mean right now or the last few years. Wades era and pips era compare just fine.

MadDog

10-28-2020, 06:21 PM

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 06:29 PM

Pippen "The GOAT Playmaker" with a whopping 5 assists and 3 turnovers. Murdering the comp with 17 big ones on a blistering 40% shooting. No wonder Jordan three-peated again! Just look at those impressive numbers! :confusedshrug:

All this nonsense about Wade, but Pippen never BOTH outscored/outdefended Jordan for a playoff run and/or never averaged a better BPM/VORP/PER. Wade bested LeBron in those metrics and it STILL wasn’t enough help. Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with too.

Dwyane Wade (5 Seasons)
Chris Bosh (4 Seasons)
Kyrie Irving (4 Seasons)
Kevin Love (4 Seasons—exclude him if you want, makes no difference really)
Shaquille O'Neil (1 Season)
Anthony Davis (1 Season
Dwight Howard (1 Season)

So why does LeBron need the reserve and national guard? :oldlol:

Yeah thats the hole in these brons stans argument. Pips playoff numbers just dont warrant the praise they give him. If anyone else was to have those numbers they'd crucify them. Even someone who was a great defender. I can only imagine what they'd say if kawhi or ad had those numbers. If ad had those numbers and lakers lost they'd say bron lost because ad was trash. If he had those numbers and won they'd say bron carried him and won despite ad being trash.

8Ball

10-28-2020, 06:36 PM

2011 vs Boston
2011 vs Mavs
2012 vs Indiana

That's it.

MadDog

10-28-2020, 06:43 PM

Yeah thats the hole in these brons stans argument. Pips playoff numbers just dont warrant the praise they give him. If anyone else was to have those numbers they'd crucify them. Even someone who was a great defender. I can only imagine what they'd say if kawhi or ad had those numbers. If ad had those numbers and lakers lost they'd say bron lost because ad was trash. If he had those numbers and won they'd say bron carried him and won despite ad being trash.

Bingo. And if that were AD, you wouldn't have psuedo fans of his propping up role player numbers :oldlol:

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 10:01 PM

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

No answer from MJ stains. :lol It should be easy to answer...

The same people hype Stockton's 7 PPG for Games 2-6 in the same series (the Jazz offense went from 101 PPG during the season to 80 PPG in the finals, the great assists man did nothing about it) so you have to wonder why they denigrate the FMVP front-runner for much of the series and praise the guy piloting a historically bad Finals offense (7 PPG won't help) despite having the second all-time leading scorer on the team.

We just heard "no difference" between the 2010's and 90's. Did anyone see a team make a finals with a second option scoring single digits in the past decade? Westbrook was 27 PPG in the finals (27, not 7) and he was a sidekick PG in this era. You wouldn't get out the first round in 2010, 2015, or 2020 getting zero scoring from your second and third options. Jason Terry put up Payton scoring numbers (Payton destroyed Stockton in the 96' WCF, worse than Hakeem and Robinson the year before BTW) in the finals and he is a meme. The Jazz would take 18 to the bank if they could get it from any one in Malone's cast.

Here is another one to ask MJ stains: why did the Bulls have a top 10 offense without Jordan but not without Pippen?

Gus Hemmingway

10-28-2020, 10:09 PM

No answer from MJ stains. :lol It should be easy to answer. The same people hype Stockton's 7 PPG for Games 2-6 in the same series (the Jazz offense went from 101 PPG during the season to 80 PPG in the finals, the great assists man did nothing about it) so you have to wonder why they denigrate the FMVP front-runner for much of the series and praise the guy piloting a historically bad Finals offense despite having the second all-time leading scorer on the team.

Here is another one to ask MJ stains: why did the Bulls have a top 10 offense without Jordan but not without Pippen?

Coach furiously creating another alt right now to respond :lol

TheCorporation

10-28-2020, 10:50 PM

2011 vs Boston
2011 vs Mavs
2012 vs Indiana

That's it.

Playoff series from 2011 to 2014
# of series with Game Score over 20

Wade: 2
11 vs BOS, DAL

LeBron: 14
11 vs PHI, BOS, CHI,
12 vs NYK, IND, BOS, OKC
13 vs MIL, CHI, IND, SAS
14 vs CHA, NJN, SAS

Axe

10-28-2020, 10:55 PM

Thats the thing....people say Wade showed James how to win, so how's that right if Wade showed James how to lose in 2011?
They probably meant wade was a winner and fmvp before bran even came to south beach a decade ago

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 10:57 PM

No answer from MJ stains. :lol It should be easy to answer...

The same people hype Stockton's 7 PPG for Games 2-6 in the same series (the Jazz offense went from 101 PPG during the season to 80 PPG in the finals, the great assists man did nothing about it) so you have to wonder why they denigrate the FMVP front-runner for much of the series and praise the guy piloting a historically bad Finals offense (7 PPG won't help) despite having the second all-time leading scorer on the team.

We just heard "no difference" between the 2010's and 90's. Did anyone see a team make a finals with a second option scoring single digits in the past decade? Westbrook was 27 PPG in the finals (27, not 7) and he was a sidekick PG in this era. You wouldn't get out the first round in 2010, 2015, or 2020 getting zero scoring from your second and third options. Jason Terry put up Payton scoring numbers (Payton destroyed Stockton in the 96' WCF, worse than Hakeem and Robinson the year before BTW) in the finals and he is a meme. The Jazz would take 18 to the bank if they could get it from any one in Malone's cast.

Here is another one to ask MJ stains: why did the Bulls have a top 10 offense without Jordan but not without Pippen?

the argument isnt that pip wasnt great just that pip wasn't any greater than wade. Him getting fmvp vote consideration is just validation of how important his defense was. Wade could of easily won a fmvp in 2011 if bron didn't play as bad as he did btw.

And im not sure how much stock you want to put into a vote or 2. Its just one or two peoples opinion at the end of the day. I mean you guys go on about how much better of a defender was than mj but mj typically got as many dpoy votes as pip and he actually won it one year. I guess that means he was the better defender or at very least as good?

As far your top 10 offense comparison its kind of a obvious one. The answer is because of phil jackson. When pip didn't have mike he still had phil. When mj didn't have pip he also didn't have phil. The only sample we have of mj without pip but with phil was in 1998 and the bulls were doing just fine without him. They were winning and on pace to finish right around 55 wins. Here's a question for you. How come pip didn't have any all stars ar even a 15 point a game season without phil?

TheCorporation

10-28-2020, 10:58 PM

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

Pippen played elite defense and did all the stuff MJ couldn't do. He had double the assists that MJ had. 29 to 14.

Roundball_Rock

10-28-2020, 11:05 PM

Coach furiously creating another alt right now to respond :lol

:lol

The answer is obvious and publicly available but they will lie anyway. Pippen was putting up 20 PPG on 57 percent TS before getting injured in Game 5. Most importantly, he dominated defensively (hence the pathetic Utah scoring output). Which reporting from the time shows via Google.

Using their logic that 90's numbers equal Wade era numbers, that means 98' Stockton was basically 11' Kidd in the playoffs and finals. The difference of course is Stockton was the second option in 98' for the Jazz and Kidd a role player for the Mavs in 11'. But hey, that's the logic we are hearing. MJ's best finals comp had 11' Kidd as its second best player. :roll:

HoopsNY

10-28-2020, 11:13 PM

Here is another one to ask MJ stains: why did the Bulls have a top 10 offense without Jordan but not without Pippen?

Let's see the breakdown for this one. Do you have the numbers for these years/times where MJ played without Pippen and vice versa? Genuinely asking.

TheCorporation

10-28-2020, 11:18 PM

Wade vs Pippen
# of Playoff series w/ Game Score over 20

2011 to 2014 (4 years)
Wade: 2
11 vs BOS, DAL

1991 to 1993, 1996 (4 years)
Pippen: 4
91 vs PHI, DET
92 vs MIA
96 vs MIA

Bronbron23

10-28-2020, 11:35 PM

:lol

The answer is obvious and publicly available but they will lie anyway. Pippen was putting up 20 PPG on 57 percent TS before getting injured in Game 5. Most importantly, he dominated defensively (hence the pathetic Utah scoring output). Which reporting from the time shows via Google.

Using their logic that 90's numbers equal Wade era numbers, that means 98' Stockton was basically 11' Kidd in the playoffs and finals. The difference of course is Stockton was the second option in 98' for the Jazz and Kidd a role player for the Mavs in 11'. But hey, that's the logic we are hearing. MJ's best finals comp had 11' Kidd as its second best player. :roll:

But he did get hurt though. Maybe he would of continued that play maybe he wouldn't have. We'll never know. Same thing happened this year btw witb bron and ad. Tbe fmvp was pretty close until ad got injured.

And kidd was more than a role player. After dirk he played more minutes than anyone. He was the mavs main playmaker. Did you watch the games dude? Kidd was still top 10 in assists in the reg season and top 5 in the postseason. Its funny how playmaking, leadership and assists matter when talking about bron but its absolutely irrelevant when it suits bron stans narrative.

And you still didn't answer the question. Why couldn't pip make a all star team or even just score 15 points a game without phil ?

MadDog

10-29-2020, 01:17 AM

HoopsNY

10-29-2020, 07:28 AM

Pippen was injured huh? Sounds like Wade throughout 2011-2014. Why isn't he forwarded these excuses though? :oldlol: Couldn't be because "Powerhouse Pippen" shot 40% or dished out 5 assists and 3 turnovers. Maybe these faux Pippen fans will clue us in? :confusedshrug:

That is a good point. None of this should be used against Pippen OR Wade, but rather it should be used to elevate MJ and LeBron.

HoopsNY

10-29-2020, 07:34 AM

But he did get hurt though. Maybe he would of continued that play maybe he wouldn't have. We'll never know. Same thing happened this year btw witb bron and ad. Tbe fmvp was pretty close until ad got injured.

And kidd was more than a role player. After dirk he played more minutes than anyone. He was the mavs main playmaker. Did you watch the games dude? Kidd was still top 10 in assists in the reg season and top 5 in the postseason. Its funny how playmaking, leadership and assists matter when talking about bron but its absolutely irrelevant when it suits bron stans narrative.

And you still didn't answer the question. Why couldn't pip make a all star team or even just score 15 points a game without phil ?

You're right about, but I would consider that the 1999 season was the lockout season where we saw numbers crater overall.

Pippen was essentially the 3rd option on that team and still put up 14.5/6.5/6 with 2 steals on 43%. Not the best numbers in the world, especially scoring and efficiency, but it's a new team, new system, and he played behind Hakeem and Charles. In addition, him and Charles didn't get along.

Pippen put up 18/12/5.5 in the first round exit, but his shooting was putrid (32%). But we should also consider Pippen was 33 years old at that point and his back was never the same.

I do think in a triangle system with MJ as the main scorer, Pippen's numbers probably go up, but not by much. Maybe 17 PPG on 44%? He shot 45% in 1998 so it's not outlandish to think that's what he would do, at best, in 1999.

Bronbron23

10-29-2020, 08:05 AM

You're right about, but I would consider that the 1999 season was the lockout season where we saw numbers crater overall.

Pippen was essentially the 3rd option on that team and still put up 14.5/6.5/6 with 2 steals on 43%. Not the best numbers in the world, especially scoring and efficiency, but it's a new team, new system, and he played behind Hakeem and Charles. In addition, him and Charles didn't get along.

Pippen put up 18/12/5.5 in the first round exit, but his shooting was putrid (32%). But we should also consider Pippen was 33 years old at that point and his back was never the same.

I do think in a triangle system with MJ as the main scorer, Pippen's numbers probably go up, but not by much. Maybe 17 PPG on 44%? He shot 45% in 1998 so it's not outlandish to think that's what he would do, at best, in 1999.

Yeah its not just after phil though. Even before phil pip wasnt an all star or scoring more than 15 a game. And its not like he was super young or anything. he came in the league at 22.

HoopsNY

10-29-2020, 08:36 AM

Bronbron23

10-29-2020, 09:59 AM

My memory escapes me, but I recall him reaggravating his back in game 6 that made it nearly impossible for him to move, not game 5. He had a cortisone shot after game 3 I believe.

Pippen was 2-16 in game 5. There may have been discomfort, but I don't recall him being incapacitated.

It dosnt matter if pip was hurt or not the point was he didnt do enough to be considered the fmvp. He was 7/8/7 on 35% shooting in those last 2 games. Yeah he was still elite defensively but so was mj. Is this even a serious conversation?

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 10:17 AM

Wade vs Pippen
# of Playoff series w/ Game Score over 20

2011 to 2014 (4 years)
Wade: 2
11 vs BOS, DAL

1991 to 1993, 1996 (4 years)
Pippen: 4
91 vs PHI, DET
92 vs MIA
96 vs MIA

Interesting--and it was easier to compile stats in Wade's era and GS doesn't capture defense. Pippen was getting FMVP talk in 98' via defense--even though MJ stans will pretend it didn't happen. :oldlol:

We also have this for their BPM data (VORP tells a similar story):

Pippen 1995-1998: 5.9, 7.8, 5.1, 5.6
Wade 2011-2014: 8.4, 5.3, 3.1, 0.9
Irving 2015-2017/2019: 5.2, 6.0, 2.2, 2.5

Pippen PO BPM ranks: 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
Wade PO BPM ranks: 2nd, 10th, 25th, 60th (behind Lance Stephenson)
Irving PO BPM ranks: 11th, 10th, 34th, 31st

What MJ stans are trying to tell us is 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th= or is less than 2nd, 10th, 25th, 60th. :lol

The throughline with MJ stans is MJ never had any help. Do you ever see them pointing to any year where he had help? :roll:

Here is MJ stan darling Stockton vs. Kidd.

98' Stockton in the PO: 11/3/8 57% TS (-6% from the RS)
11' Kidd in the PO: 9/5/7 56% TS (+6% from the RS)

98' Stockton in the Finals: 10/3/9 54% TS (-8% from the RS)
11' Kidd in the Finals: 7/5/6 58% TS (+8% from the RS)

The Stockton finals numbers are inflated by one good game (Utah won the one game Stockton showed up for). He was 7/3/9 on 44% TS in Games 2-6. As he did nearly every year of his career, his efficiency nose-dived in the PO as his lack of scoring ability got exposed (his Backpicks' profile cover this). One wonders what his efficiency would look like if he took contested shots the way nearly every other HOF player does, instead of cherry picking the easiest shots.

Stockton's assist numbers look nice on paper but are largely a product of the Sloan system. He averaged 14.6 APG per 100 possessions in the 98' PO but his backup, journeyman Howard Eisley (who played about 40% of the time), was at 12.4 APG.

Kidd's numbers are deflated by being a role player. If you put him in Stockton's role his numbers would increase.

So if Stockton was this awesome player that MJ had to beat all by himself in 98', what does that make 11' Kidd? :oldlol:

Shooter

10-29-2020, 10:30 AM

Pippen played elite defense and did all the stuff MJ couldn't do. He had double the assists that MJ had. 29 to 14.

Wade vs Pippen
# of Playoff series w/ Game Score over 20

2011 to 2014 (4 years)
Wade: 2
11 vs BOS, DAL

1991 to 1993, 1996 (4 years)
Pippen: 4
91 vs PHI, DET
92 vs MIA
96 vs MIA

Interesting--and it was easier to compile stats in Wade's era and GS doesn't capture defense. Pippen was getting FMVP talk in 98' via defense--even though MJ stans will pretend it didn't happen. :oldlol:

We also have this for their BPM data (VORP tells a similar story):

Pippen 1995-1998: 5.9, 7.8, 5.1, 5.6
Wade 2011-2014: 8.4, 5.3, 3.1, 0.9
Irving 2015-2017/2019: 5.2, 6.0, 2.2, 2.5

Pippen PO BPM ranks: 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
Wade PO BPM ranks: 2nd, 10th, 25th, 60th (behind Lance Stephenson)
Irving PO BPM ranks: 11th, 10th, 34th, 31st

What MJ stans are trying to tell us is 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th= or is less than 2nd, 10th, 25th, 60th. :lol

The throughline with MJ stans is MJ never had any help. Do you ever see them pointing to any year where he had help? :roll:

Here is MJ stan darling Stockton vs. Kidd.

98' Stockton in the PO: 11/3/8 57% TS (-6% from the RS)
11' Kidd in the PO: 9/5/7 56% TS (+6% from the RS)

98' Stockton in the Finals: 10/3/9 54% TS (-8% from the RS)
11' Kidd in the Finals: 7/5/6 58% TS (+8% from the RS)

The Stockton finals numbers are inflated by one good game (Utah won the one game Stockton showed up for). He was 7/3/9 on 44% TS in Games 2-6. As he did nearly every year of his career, his efficiency nose-dived in the PO as his lack of scoring ability got exposed (his Backpicks' profile cover this). One wonders what his efficiency would look like if he took contested shots the way nearly every other HOF player does, instead of cherry picking the easiest shots.

Stockton's assist numbers look nice on paper but are largely a product of the Sloan system. He averaged 14.6 APG per 100 possessions in the 98' PO but his backup, journeyman Howard Eisley (who played about 40% of the time), was at 12.4 APG.

Kidd's numbers are deflated by being a role player. If you put him in Stockton's role his numbers would increase.

So if Stockton was this awesome player that MJ had to beat all by himself in 98', what does that make 11' Kidd? :oldlol:

I've seen enough

Hey Yo

10-29-2020, 10:47 AM

Pippen was injured huh? Sounds like Wade throughout 2011-2014. Why isn't he forwarded these excuses though? :oldlol: Couldn't be because "Powerhouse Pippen" shot 40% or dished out 5 assists and 3 turnovers. Maybe these faux Pippen fans will clue us in? :confusedshrug:
So why do you still refer to the Heat as a superteam if you acknowledge that Wade was hobbled most of the time?? :confusedshrug:

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 10:50 AM

I've seen enough

:cheers:

So why do you still refer to the Heat as a superteam if you acknowledge that Wade was hobbled most of the time?? :confusedshrug:

:lol

He also is conflating injuries leading to poor performance for an entire playoff run to a player having a FMVP-worthy performance before having a career altering back injury in Game 5 of the 98' Finals (i.e., FMVP-worthy play for 3 of the 4 Bulls' wins). In 97' Pippen was hurt too but overcame it, as was covered earlier (tip: they will use raw FG % for 97' to obscure Pippen having a higher TS % and eFG % than MJ that run--Pippen just took threes for two-fifths of his attempts and we know MJ's status re the 3ball...). That is one difference between Pippen and others. He was able to overcome injuries and he played through them. What did Kyrie do for his teams when they needed him most in 15', 18', and 20'? Wear a suit. :oldlol:

But in Jordanstan, the FMVP-worthy performance never happened. :lol You can't have a conversation with cultists (one who is so nutty he has about 20 accounts) who won't acknowledge basic historical facts.

MadDog

10-29-2020, 12:02 PM

It dosnt matter if pip was hurt or not the point was he didnt do enough to be considered the fmvp. He was 7/8/7 on 35% shooting in those last 2 games. Yeah he was still elite defensively but so was mj. Is this even a serious conversation?

We keep hearing about Pippen's back in that ONE series, but he was subpar most of the 96-98 playoffs. Look at his series vs the Knicks in 1996: 16ppg on 33% shooting. Or vs the Sonics where he averaged 16 on 34% shooting (5 assists though! :oldlol:) Jordan won three-straight with a sidekick producing role player numbers. No other great can lay that claim.

That is a good point. None of this should be used against Pippen OR Wade, but rather it should be used to elevate MJ and LeBron.

We don't hear Wade getting the benefit of the doubt though. Unlike Jordan, LeBron's sidekick played better through his "injuries" and had REALLY GOOD finals along the way. 20/5/4 on 47% shooting vs the Spurs. 23/5/4 on 44% shooting vs OKC. In both series he played great defense too. Then there is 2011, where Wade had an ENTIRE playoff run better than LeBron :oldlol: More points, better defense and advanced stats (BPM/PER/VORP). Wade played well with his injuries and its never talked about. Pippen plays like crap and we're supposed to feel sorry for him. Something aint right in Denmark :confusedshrug:

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 12:09 PM

Here is a breakdown of one play encapsulating defensive dominance--too bad it doesn't show on the stat sheet. https://ca.nba.com/news/one-play-appreciating-the-defensive-dominance-of-chicago-bulls-legend-scottie-pippen/1tr0sia2y3ifg12lgk0bbf9d1t#:~:text=The%20Last%20Da nce-,One%20Play%3A%20Appreciating%20the%20defensive%20 dominance%20of%20Chicago%20Bulls%20legend,Scottie% 20Pippen's%20incredible%20defence.

Here is what the Associated Press said after Game 4:

Pippen Everywhere in Bulls Victory
NANCY ARMOUR
June 11, 1998
CHICAGO (AP) _ Michael Jordan isn’t the only Chicago Bull who can do it all.

Scottie Pippen scored 28 points, grabbed nine rebounds, dished out a team-high five assists and was here, there and everywhere on defense Wednesday, leading the charge as Chicago beat the Utah Jazz 86-82 in Game 4 of the NBA Finals.

Pippen was a menace from the minute he took the court. He drilled his first shot, a 3-pointer, and had three rebounds, all on the offensive glass, before the game was two minutes old.

By the time the first quarter was finished, Pippen had nine points on three 3-pointers.

He even took Chicago on his own little run. He made a 3-pointer to end the first quarter, and then opened the second with a short jumper and followed with another 3. After Bryon Russell hit a 3-pointer, Pippen banked a 16-foot jumper off the glass.

Ten straight Pippen points and the Bulls led 28-22. By halftime, he had 16.

But it was his defense that really carried Chicago, just as it has throughout the playoffs. Pippen, a perennial member of the NBA’s All-Defensive team, was all over the court, floating between Karl Malone and whatever other Jazz player happened to have the ball.

He broke up screens, closed off the lane and overall made a complete nuisance of himself. And while John Stockton implied after Game 3 that Pippen was using illegal defense, he was careful to never stay in one place too long.

One minute he’d be at the top of the key, the next second he’d be doubling Malone. He was so quick on his shifts the Jazz could never figure out where he was going or what he was going to do next.

He thoroughly flustered the Jazz, who only got double figures from Malone (21) and Russell (10).

Was this person lying 22 years ago? Did she, like everyone else alive at the time, miss that MJ was getting "no help" as MJ stans say decades later? This write up doesn't even mention anything MJ did in the game. :lol

https://apnews.com/article/e78d9884d3d4cfd800b81067857eb413

Hey Yo

10-29-2020, 12:10 PM

Poor MD 20/20 back tracking now after his "Wade was hurt from 2011-14" backfired in his face :oldlol::oldlol:

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 12:18 PM

Poor MD 20/20 back tracking now after his "Wade was hurt from 2011-14" backfired in his face :oldlol::oldlol:

:roll:

The self-ownage is so bad he may shift to one of his 19 other accounts. :lol

Wade missed 6 games in 11', 17 in 12' (shortened season), 13 in 13', and 28 in 14'. That is a lot. Irving missed 7 RS games in 15' but missed half the ECF against a 60 win team with 4 all-stars and 5/6 of the Finals against the future Warriors dynasty, in 16' he missed 29 games, in 17' it was 10. Irving has never had a healthy season. 15' was the most he played in the RS but he couldn't handle the load by the PO.

Pippen from 1991-1993, 1995-1998 missed 0 playoff games (neither did Rodman, Grant--we know Love, Bosh missed major time in 12', 15' playoffs and Hughes was shot in 07'--all including the Finals and/or ECF)...) and 0, 0, 1, 3, 5, 0, 38 RS games. So the only time he missed notable time was 98' and he was basically healthy from his return all the way through the first four games of the finals. (He did, ironically, miss 10 games in 94', which cost the Bulls' the #1 seed.)

MadDog

10-29-2020, 12:25 PM

No surprise we're getting cherry-picked quotes from single games. Wade has a lot of those too :confusedshrug:

During Miami's drive to the 2012 title, Dwyane Wade dealt with a left knee that needed to be drained between games and eventually required offseason surgery. He still averaged 22.8 points per game in the playoffs, hanging 41 points in a series-clinching win over the Pacers in the second round and scoring 25 points in back-to-back Finals victories over the Thunder. He was subjugated to the No. 2 role with LeBron James fully ascending, but he was, overall, still productive.

One year later, Wade has been a nursing a right-knee injury. "He's hurting," James said of Wade, who applied hot packs to his knee during the game. "Of course he's hurting. He's been playing with a bum knee all year. He's hurting, but he's not making no excuses about it. A performance like tonight will make you feel better."

"That's his best game of the playoffs," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "He shot the ball very well. That's what great players do. They show up in big games. That's what he did. He played great."

Tim Duncan added: "His mid-range game was working. I thought we did a lot of the same stuff we did last game, challenged his shot. But he made those shots. Once he made those shots, he was able to break down our defense a little better, get inside of us, get to the basket, get some easy ones there. I think he kind of got everything he wanted."

"He went back in his bag today," James said after the Heat tied the series at 2-2. "He was Flash tonight. ... That dude was amazing. Like I said, he was [2006] Flash tonight. And we needed every bit of him."

https://www.si.com/nba/2013/06/14/dwyane-wade-flash-2013-nba-finals-miami-heat-san-antonio-spurs-game-4

That was ALL after Wade dropped 32/6/4 on 56% shooting in Game 4. The clowns in this thread don't want anything to do with averages though :oldlol: In other words, Wade's BETTER postseason runs.

Poor MD 20/20 back tracking now after his "Wade was hurt from 2011-14" backfired in his face

Who is this, Roundball_Rock's sidekick? Low efficiency just like Pippen :oldlol:

RRR3

10-29-2020, 12:29 PM

Coach is so pathetic.

HoopsNY

10-29-2020, 12:32 PM

It dosnt matter if pip was hurt or not the point was he didnt do enough to be considered the fmvp. He was 7/8/7 on 35% shooting in those last 2 games. Yeah he was still elite defensively but so was mj. Is this even a serious conversation?

My comment was in reference to Roundball's claim about the injury being in game 5. Not sure what he's referring to.

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 12:34 PM

Coach is so pathetic.

Yup. :lol Notice how he says "cherry picked", as if these are outliers? Google the same stuff. Everybody said the same thing in their game write ups. Just because it is inconvenient for MJ cultists 22 years later doesn't change what happened and what people saw.

During Miami's drive to the 2012 title, Dwyane Wade dealt with a left knee that needed to be drained between games and eventually required offseason surgery. He still averaged 22.8 points per game in the playoffs, hanging 41 points in a series-clinching win over the Pacers in the second round and scoring 25 points in back-to-back Finals victories over the Thunder. He was subjugated to the No. 2 role with LeBron James fully ascending, but he was, overall, still productive.

Damn, that Wade guy must have been really good! :bowdown: He sounds like a top 25 all-time player. So you are now equating 98' Pippen to 12' Wade? So Pippen was "help" now? Progress. :cheers:

If you want to compare averages, let's compare what the teammates of MJ and LJ did against what teammates on the other team did in the same era, same rules, same pace, etc. Let's compare 27/6/7 to 98' Stockton's 11' Kidd numbers.

Jordan fans never do this because they are (evidently) embarrassed at the performances of the competition...all we ever hear are names that were in the finals or ECF, not what they did while there.

MadDog

10-29-2020, 12:38 PM

No substance, handpicking single games like LeBron does superstars (:oldlol:), ignoring law of averages because the truth hurts their feelings :confusedshrug: I expected better. You can't erase 17ppg on 40% shooting, or 5 assists and 3 turnovers. Those were Pippen's numbers when Jordan carried him to a 3-peat.

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 12:43 PM

Spoken like a true cultist. Whatever his cult leader 3ball says is what "really happened."

He was the FMVP front-runner at that point in the series (:oldlol: at it being a single game--the write up there references the entire postseason). That is a fact in the real world. MJ stans can continue to live in their fairy tale world know as Jordanstan but the rest of us known what happened. When MJ actually had limited help, he won nothing.

Where was John Stockton when all this was going down? :confusedshrug:

MadDog

10-29-2020, 12:51 PM

Notice that we get ZERO feedback on Pippen's numbers. :confusedshrug: Only cherry-picked games and "half-series" where Pippen got a little recognition :oldlol: Oh and John Stockton. The same guy who doubled Pippen in assists. Can't leave that one out now! The Law of Averages is foreign to your ilk.

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 01:02 PM

What about his numbers? 20 PPG while healthy is a lot more than 7-9 PPG (not 27/6/7 like Westbrook put up in 12'). :confusedshrug:

*Pippen dominated the series defensively, leading the Bulls to 3 of their 4 wins. The vaunted Malone/Stockton offense was wrecked and embarrassed.
*Pippen chipped in 20 PPG on 57% TS. That was a lot in a series where Stockton/Hornacek combined for 20 PPG.
*When Pippen got hurt, Kukoc filled the void by averaging 23 PPG in the final two games. More than Stockton/Hornacek combined.
*Rodman held Malone in check, not as well as in 97', but Malone underperformed.

All this is "no help"? :lol

Eisley averaged basically the same assists per minute. #Sloansystem

Speaking of assists, how many did MJ average? :oldlol:

Bronbron23

10-29-2020, 04:49 PM

MadDog

10-29-2020, 05:05 PM

What about his numbers? 20 PPG while healthy is a lot more than 7-9 PPG (not 27/6/7 like Westbrook put up in 12').

An injured Wade averaged 20 in the 2012 and 2013 finals. And 27 in the 2011 finals. He's not getting an injury excuse so why is Pippen? :confusedshrug:

*Pippen chipped in 20 PPG on 57% TS.

More cherry-picking. Wade averaged that throughout the 2011-2013 playoffs. Not just one series. For the entirety of the 96-98 playoffs, Pippen averaged ~17 on 40% shooting. Ouch!

Speaking of assists, how many did MJ average?

He outscored Pippen by 14 points per game. That while averaging just 1 less assist. Yeah man "Primetime" Pippen was a stud! :oldlol:

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 05:14 PM

red1

10-29-2020, 05:20 PM

no ring in 2013 against the spurs without wade

dwade was huge on the road when it mattered

Bronbron23

10-29-2020, 05:29 PM

:sleeping

The same robotic talking points--straight from their leader 3ball.

Anyone else notice how MJ stains will never say a word of criticism of any 90's legends other than Pippen, Rodman? :lol Stockton was trash in the 98' finals (his backup Howard Eisley basically produced the same per minute as the big bad Stockton MJ had to slay with "no help") and they still can't criticize the "competition."

Using their own logic (that stats from the 2010's=1990's stats), the #2 option on MJ's best finals comp was equal to 11' Kidd. How weak then was MJ's era/comp? A team with 98' Stockton as its #2 option isn't going anywhere in the 2010's. :lol

There were all kinds of bad players just like theres all kinds now and every other era. And you like making that point about kidd but it's a bad one. Kidd like stocton was still one of the best passers in the game and still one of the best at pushing the ball and pace. He had double the assists of any other player. Last time i checked assists is offense also. I love how when it comes to bron, assists are one of the most important parts of the game but when it comes to kidd who's an even better passer its kind of irrelevant.

Still waiting on a couple answers btw. Why didn't pip make an all star team without phil and who did pip gaurd most of the time in the 98 finals?

MadDog

10-29-2020, 05:29 PM

no ring in 2013 against the spurs without wade

dwade was huge on the road when it mattered

These guys don't want to acknowledge Wade's play. We have countless data and articles speaking on Wade's injuries, but it doesn't matter. Because LeBron is their deity. :oldlol: Pathetic when you think about it. Knowing that if LeBron actually plays decent, Wade would have another FMVP. Where does he rank then? Not much separated he, Kobe and LeBron before LeBron hightailed it to Miami. You'd have to think his legacy would be seen in a brighter light.

red1

10-29-2020, 05:32 PM

These guys don't want to acknowledge Wade's play. We have countless data and articles speaking on Wade's injuries, but it doesn't matter. Because LeBron is their deity. :oldlol: Pathetic when you think about it. Knowing that if LeBron actually plays decent, Wade would have another FMVP. Where does he rank then? Not much separated he, Kobe and LeBron before LeBron hightailed it to Miami. You'd have to think his legacy would be seen in a brighter light.

lebron literally choked dwade's 2011 ring away. it was the biggest point dropoff in NBA finals history. the mavs were good but the heat should've won.

my consolation is that the mavs also swept the defending champ lakers. still makes me laugh to this day.

https://mikesmitty214.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/broom.jpg

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 05:32 PM

who did pip gaurd most of the time in the 98 finals?

This shows you didn't watch the series. The entire Bulls' defense was predicated on Pippen not guarding anyone and roaming around. This https://ca.nba.com/news/one-play-appreciating-the-defensive-dominance-of-chicago-bulls-legend-scottie-pippen/1tr0sia2y3ifg12lgk0bbf9d1t#:~:text=The%20Last%20Da nce-,One%20Play%3A%20Appreciating%20the%20defensive%20 dominance%20of%20Chicago%20Bulls%20legend,Scottie% 20Pippen's%20incredible%20defence. covers it, but clearly you weren't interested in clicking on it when posted earlier.

What did John Stockton do in the series, besides show up and collect checks? :confusedshrug:

Wade's injuries were discussed several times. That is part of the point: 82 games>55 games.

MadDog

10-29-2020, 05:35 PM

I love how when it comes to bron, assists are one of the most important parts of the game but when it comes to kidd who's an even better passer its kind of irrelevant.

Still waiting on a couple answers btw. Why didn't pip make an all star team without phil and who did pip gaurd most of the time in the 98 finals?

When it comes to guys like Stockton and Kidd, its back to "PPG!". The same category they look at and then cover their eyes for Pippen. :oldlol: No shame!

Bronbron23

10-29-2020, 05:38 PM

This shows you didn't watch the series. The entire Bulls' defense was predicated on Pippen not guarding anyone and roaming around. This https://ca.nba.com/news/one-play-appreciating-the-defensive-dominance-of-chicago-bulls-legend-scottie-pippen/1tr0sia2y3ifg12lgk0bbf9d1t#:~:text=The%20Last%20Da nce-,One%20Play%3A%20Appreciating%20the%20defensive%20 dominance%20of%20Chicago%20Bulls%20legend,Scottie% 20Pippen's%20incredible%20defence. covers it, but clearly you weren't interested in clicking on it when posted earlier.

Wade's injuries were discussed several times. That is part of the point: 82 games>55 games.

Yes he definitely roamed around as did other bulls. The answer to the question is foster. I wonder how many people will see that and have no idea who is.

And i watched tve series. A couple time actually thanks to classic games. Pip was obviously great defensively. He usually was. But he in no way dominated by himself. Go back and watch. You'll in no way see a guy dominating on the defensive end. You act like he was ben Wallace or something.

And what about that other question? How come pip couldn't make an all star without phil?

MadDog

10-29-2020, 05:44 PM

Jordan outscored Pippen by 14 points per game. That while averaging just 1 less assist.

Looking back at this discussion, I know this gem stung :oldlol: By that point, we know that Pippen's defense wasn't much if ANY better than Jordan's. Combine that with the disparity on offense (see above), and the conclusion is clear. Jordan carried this guy. Didn't matter that Pippen was kicking and screaming along the way either :oldlol:

Bronbron23

10-29-2020, 05:49 PM

When it comes to guys like Stockton and Kidd, its back to "PPG!". The same category they look at and then cover their eyes for Pippen. :oldlol: No shame!

Yeah man these dudes are all over the place with this shit.

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 06:01 PM

You'll in no way see a guy dominating on the defensive end.

There you have it folks. A MJ stan 22 years later with an obvious agenda says Pippen didn't dominate but every reporter who covered it live reported in real time that he did as did participants in those games. Who are you going to believe? :lol

MadDog

10-29-2020, 06:12 PM

LeBron fans are obsessed with narrative and perception (look at the clown on page 6 :oldlol:). They literally have no problem letting others think for them. Meanwhile, Jordan outscored Pippen by 14 points while shooting better from the field. Essentially equal defense and 1 less assist. Can't makeup that variation :confusedshrug: Not in your wildest dream.

Bronbron23

10-29-2020, 06:16 PM

There you have it folks. A MJ stan 22 years later with an obvious agenda says Pippen didn't dominate but every reporter who covered it live reported in real time that he did as did participants in those games. Who are you going to believe? :lol

It wasn't every reporter it was a few and dominated is a pretty loose word. Its used all the time. And remember those reporters and beat writters are now guys like skip and nick wright and Steven a who at the end of the day are just fans with opinions. Thats why athletes dont respect reporters. Because most if them talk shit and often dont know what the hell they're talking about.

But just watch the games again. You'll see great defense from pip but you wont see domination.

LonelyOwl

10-29-2020, 06:19 PM

Less than Pippen from 91-93

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 07:05 PM

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

He sucked but was getting FMVP consideration--that is the MJ stain party line. :roll:

Smoke117

10-29-2020, 07:28 PM

Yes he definitely roamed around as did other bulls. The answer to the question is foster. I wonder how many people will see that and have no idea who is.

And i watched tve series. A couple time actually thanks to classic games. Pip was obviously great defensively. He usually was. But he in no way dominated by himself. Go back and watch. You'll in no way see a guy dominating on the defensive end. You act like he was ben Wallace or something.

And what about that other question? How come pip couldn't make an all star without phil?

So, clearly you've never actually watched the 98 finals...that, or you are so far up Jordan's ass that he was all you paid attention to. That series is when Phil Jackson referred to Pippen as a "one man wrecking crew" defensively.

Gus Hemmingway

10-29-2020, 07:30 PM

He sucked but was getting FMVP consideration--that is the MJ stain party line. :roll:

:oldlol:

Roundball_Rock

10-29-2020, 07:36 PM

So, clearly you've never actually watched the 98 finals...that, or you are so far up Jordan's ass that he was all you paid attention to. That series is when Phil Jackson referred to Pippen as a "one man wrecking crew" defensively.

Yup, and we posted numerous articles showing reporters and the Jazz reaching the same conclusion as Jackson did. MJ stains, though, claim it didn't happen! :lol

What is funny is the same people will hype Stockton as big bad "comp" MJ had to face, who actually did suck in the series.

All lies!

Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nba/longterm/1998/finals/articles/pippen09.htm

Chicago Tribune: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-06-08-9806080106-story.html

New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html

San Francisco Chronicle: https://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/NBA-FINALS-NOTES-Pippen-s-Dominance-Comes-From-3003947.php

Baltimore Sun: https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1998-06-09-1998160010-story.html

Associated Press: https://apnews.com/article/e78d9884d3d4cfd800b81067857eb413

Orlando Sentinel: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-1998-06-09-9806090328-story.html

How about another lie?

The Desert News: https://www.deseret.com/1998/6/11/19385041/what-about-pippen-for-nba-finals-mvp

What about Pippen for NBA Finals MVP?
By Deseret News Jun 11, 1998, 12:00am MDT
Jody Genessy, Sports Writer

But if Pippen's defensive performance in Game 3 didn't convince you that he's worthy of being named MVP of the Finals, then what he did on both ends of the court in the Bulls' 86-82 Game 4 victory should have clinched the vote.

Pippen impressed Jerry Sloan.

"He was sensational," said the Jazz's coach.

After scoring just 10 points in Sunday's record-setting shellacking, Pippen was even more efficient offensively than Jordan Wednesday at the United Center. He scored 28 points on 9-of-18 shooting overall and went five-for-eight from beyond the arc. Jordan needed 27 shots from the floor and 15 from the free-throw line to get his total.

Pippen, who is much healthier now than he was a year ago in the Finals, carried the Bulls' offensive yolk for much of the first half. In the first quarter, he scored six of the Bull's first eight points by swishing two 3-pointers. He also crashed the glass early on, grabbing three offensive rebounds in the first three minutes. At one point, Pippen had three offensive boards while the Jazz were still waiting for their first rebound to fall in their hands.

"He did a terrific job getting in the open court, pulling up and taking the 3-point shots, and got in a great rhythm," Sloan said. "We had a difficult time trying to guard him."

And that was just half the court.

"Defensively, he puts tremendous pressure on you. . . . He caused us a lot of problems, I think everybody is aware of that. We're aware of it," Sloan said. "We have trouble with him every time we play. And I don't know what more you can say. You can put him on any player on the floor, and he's going to do a terrific job defensively."

"I can't conjure up anybody who does all the things that Pippen does as a defender. I mean, he can defend anybody," Ramsay said. "We've seen him defend point guards and take them out of their game, two guards and deny them a shot, small forwards, big forwards. The only player that I haven't seen him defend well is the opposing center. I think he'd have a hard time with Shaq."

But the Jazz obviously don't have Shaq. And, for that matter, they don't have a dominating player right now - not even Malone, in part because of the suffocating defensive pressure the gangly, athletic 6-foot-7 Pippen and his teammates have been applying.

https://www.deseret.com/1998/6/11/19385041/what-about-pippen-for-nba-finals-mvp

Lies! All lies! None of this every happened! :rant