This era of rim protection sucks

[Micku]

I always known it kind'a sucking in comparison to previous eras, but I didn't know how much. I decided to randomly to look at the stats and it's pretty staggering.

Regular Season=RS, Playoffs=PO. All stats are from basktball-reference from 0-3 ft.

1997:
RS: 53.6%
PO: 54.3%

1998:
RS: 59.8%
PO: 57.5%

1999:
RS: 59.2%
PO: 57.6%

2000:
RS: 60.6%
PO: 60.8%

2001:
RS: 61.9%
PO: 59.1%

2002:
RS: 60.5%
PO: 59.3%

Skipping the rest of the 2000s as it continuously range from 58-61% in both RS and the playoffs. Including in 2004 and post hand checking rule in 05. But there some definitely some bumps. In 06, the POs it was 62.6%. And in 07 the league shot 61%, but it went down in the playoffs. I guess you could argue the league was slowly going up in the % at the rim, but in general, the league shot a that % for the rest of the decade. Going on to the 2010s, you start see some bumps in %.

2010:
RS 61.3%
PO: 59.1%

As you can see, in RS it probably hit a record of the efficiency. But it went down in the playoffs. As stated by many players and hardcore fans/analysts, the game becomes tougher in the playoffs and the game slows down. Defense kicks up. It could've been an abnormal year. Then you look at the next year:

2011:
RS: 65.0%
PO: 60.8%

Huuge bump in comparison to what we are used to before. At least in the RS. The POs, while high, it wasn't anything crazy. Then the following years:

2012:
RS: 63.4%
PO: 60.7%

2013:
RS: 63.1%
PO: 61.8%

2014:
RS: 63.6%
PO: 63.8%

The 63-64% seems the new norm in comparison to the 58-61%. And even the playoffs are increasing the %. But now in the past three years are so, we are at a high time high, at least in recorded stats.

2018:
RS: 65.8%
PO: 67.8% (record)

2019:
RS: 65.8%
PO: 65.5%

2020:
RS: 66.7% (record)
PO: 67.2%

How did this happen? Why aren't teams defending the rim as they did in the 2000s and late 90s? That's a long history. But it isn't just because of rule changing. It's this small ball lineup and coaching philosophy.


I think it all started because of the Bad Boys Pistons in the late 80s and early 90s. I think the 80s may have similar stats as you see in the 2010s, but we can't confirm it. Maybe in the RS. But I don't know for sure because the paint was crowded back then. They settled for mid range jumpers back then to avoid the paint.

[Micku]

Bad Boys Pistons started this:
Back then, teams were running the fastbreaks all the time. They would outrun you. The Pistons tried this too, but it didn't work out for them. Then they started to slow down the pace in the late 80s and play more half court and limit the fastbreaks. They weren't the first team to do this, but they were the first team that other ppl thought they could emulate since they didn't have the talent like the Lakers, Celts, 76ers and other top teams of the 80s.

The problem with the Pistons were the fouls. Back then, this hard fouls was a common foul. Like even when Mchale clothesline Rambis, you can hear the commentators say at the end "It's just part of the game.":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7r6vXeOfyQ

Mchale wasn't ejected. He came back in and watched Rambis shoot the FT. It was either the refs start to call more fouls, the game would get more intense and physical or the players would fight. But this foul along with the Celtics started to play more physical, it screw up with the Lakers mindset. They wanted probably wanted to fight sometimes instead of winning.

Keep in mind, not every team did this. There was no hard fouls constantly like this. But the Pistons would abuse the rule. Foul you hard and Bill Laimbeer would try to hurt you and then cry to the refs in every play. This could potentially discourage teams from going to the paint. It's wasn't always the contest, it was the beating you could get. They would lay you on your ass. It was the mindset. Even the Celts did this, but not like the Pistons. Again, it's usually part of the game to foul hard. But the Pistons took it an extra step. Even if you would shoot a jump shot, Bill Laimbeer would get into your space, sometimes slip a foot where you would land to roll your ankles. But despite him, they would still foul you hard. Players knew that, and were okay with it. But there's always a line that you shouldn't cross.

You could hear Larry Bird talk about it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USd3YagNFXY#t=18m23s


Because the complaints, they soften the rules up a little bit. Larry Bird even admits that they had to change the rules because eventually someone was going to get hurt.

The rest of the league took notice of how successful they Pistons were, so they emulated them. The Knicks was probably the most successful team to do it similar. They didn't do the cheap shots like the Pistons, but they had guys who could lock down the paint and foul you hard when come to the paint. And the rest of the 90s, the pace started to slow down compared to what they were in the 80s. Part of the reason is because they didn't have the talent to run, there was more emphasis on defense, and passing it to the big guy to score.



Defense is “in” in the NBA.

With the defense-minded Detroit Pistons making the NBA Finals twice and winning a title by holding teams under 100 points in 15 of 17 playoff games, the rest of the league has discovered that defense wins games and championships.

“The closer everybody gets to parity and teams feel like they have a shot at winning, they're going to do whatever it takes to get over that hump,” says Joe Dumars, a Piston sparkplug at both ends of the court. “They realize that playing defense gets you over that hump.”

“In the early 80s, we knew we could outrun and outscore you,” the Lakers’ Magic Johnson said. “That’s not the way we look at the game anymore.”

“Teams have found out you can win with defense,” Detroit Coach Chuck Daly said. “It gives teams with not as good offensive players a way to compete.”

...

“Detroit has created a defensive mind-set around the league, and teams copy success,” Laker Coach Pat Riley said. “In the early 80s, transition defense was non-existent. When a team was running, a coach would say ‘Just get back.’ Now there’s sophistication to defense.

...

Johnson said defense has changed dramatically in the 11 years since he came into the NBA.

“Detroit won because of defense and once somebody wins using a style, everyone wants to use that style,” Johnson said. “You can’t run free through the lane. The last couple of years, you find you’ll be body-checked when you do that. Bodies are bigger now.”


~
March 4, 1990
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-03-04-sp-2723-story.html


The Pistons impact and their play style set the tone from the 90s-mid 00s. And the league tried to get away from. Of course there are other reasons why, but we'll get into that too.

[Micku]

Big men abusing the rules and the slow pace of the 90s-00s era:

Back then, there was no defensive 3 second, 5-Second Violation Rule (Barkley Rule), and no zone. This means big guys could camp in the paint, could back you down anywhere on the floor, and defense got to wait till you have the ball to do a legit double team. Of course teams get away with it back then sometimes doing a soft double team off the ball. This created a much more slower pace of basketball. Especially since the 80s.

In the 80s, the league was filled with talent. And the top teams got the best of them. As mentioned before, they would outrun and out score you because they could. And within the half court set, they got the talent for that too. As they all got older and retired, the teams suffer from the talent. Teams was still good, but just not as talented. Back then, you normally see ppl with lean builds. If I recall, they wanted to be that build because of the amount of running that they did. They didn't want to bulk up because they feared it would slow them down in terms of being agile and lower their stamina.

But as the you go into the mid to late 80s, they started to change slowly. Players begin to bulk a little bit more. Players like Barkley would use his size and abuse the opponent. He would slow the pace down, back them down from the 3pt line and go to the basket. As stated earlier, the Pistons encourage the league to play better defense and this changed the pace. Teams with centers or big men, would run the ball to them. And with the addition of the pace slowing down, the centers would have time to camp. Mutombo, Hakeem, Mourning and Shaq would abuse this.

Not to mention the hard fouls. Taking a hit from the big men creates a different mindset. Shaq would sag off the pick and rolls and dared the players to shoot a mid range j instead of a driving on him. Because of his intimidating presence, players were more hesitant to do it. And the league in general from the 90s and early 00s had big man. Not all of them were as good as Shaq, Hakeem, or whatever, but they had the presence and they could hit you hard if they want to and stay be in the game or sometimes the fouls weren't called if they are good enough.

Here the reason why of taking the 5 second to the basket:


in 1999, the NBA instituted a rule in his name designed to curb a dominant skill of his. At 6’6” and 260 pounds, Barkley was able to turn his back to the basket, put the opponent on his backside, and methodically back them up beneath the rim before laying the ball into the hoop. The process was often tedious and ate up a lot of time, so, with the intent of speeding up gameplay, the NBA created the “Barkley Rule,” stating that players dribbling below the foul line can only face away from the basket for up to five seconds.

Barkley did not only change the sport on a technical level, however — he also influenced the way its athletes were viewed and covered.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/here-are-the-top-rule-breakers-in-basketball-history_n_5c3cbf84e4b01c93e00c3e59

Why for the 3 defensive second? While other big men had something to do with it, it was big part of Shaq.

[Micku]

Shaq destroyed the center position for everyone and changed the league:

Zone defense, 3 defensive second rule, and the league wanted to speed things up is partly because of the dominance of Shaq. If you listen to Shaq, you can hear him say that he destroyed the center position and he's the last great center. He's not really wrong.

The dominance he had was something we haven't seen since Wilt and we still haven't really seen it since. Teams literally put their squad on him at times. I still think that there is not one player who I seen who had this amount of defensive attention. The closest would be the Pistons defense on MJ. Like look at this, everyone crowding him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW-4VSxCxFA#t=08m10s

This especially, putting the whole squad at him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW-4VSxCxFA#t=08m42s


He would get fouled on almost every play and he would foul them.

Here is Shaq talking about it about how teams tried to bring him out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mFqvJNwXVA#t=01m15s

Shaq talking about teams complaining about him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mFqvJNwXVA#t=02m00s




The defensive three-second rule, which would result in an automatic technical foul if a violation occurs, will prevent a player, such as Los Angeles Lakers center Shaquille O'Neal, from camping out in the lane, Colangelo said.

...

Slashers, such as Philadelphia's Allen Iverson, the Lakers' Kobe Bryant and Toronto's Vince Carter, and low-post big men, such as O'Neal, could be hurt, some players and coaches have said. Teams can use a zone to shut down lanes to cut off penetration and they can sag down on big men, denying passes or position near the basket.

April 13, 2001
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2001/04/13/nba-approves-zone-defenses-other-changes/b9126ae0-f1b9-4a35-bb3e-a3ea86251375/

However, zone defense didn't stop Shaq. They already had the team on him on anyway. And teams didn't really play zone. Shaq isn't the only reason why they changed these rules.

[Micku]

The league and the fans missed 80s B-ball and wanted to emulate another Magic, Bird, and MJ:

In the same articles above on Shaq also mentioned how the league wanted more perimeter player action. They also wanted more flow. And they league and the media desperately wanted stars like Magic, Bird, and especially MJ. Since there were no more teams similar to the 80s, there was no showtime Lakers anymore, and there was no player that reached the height of MJ, the ratings suffered. The league thought of more scoring increase the excitement. As well as emulating star players. You see some articles on it:



Everyone agrees that the NBA is suffering from a decided lack of flow. Not enough moving and cutting; not enough midrange jump shooting; not enough pick and screen setting. In short, not enough team play, too much individualism.

Friday, April 6, 2001
https://www.espn.com/nba/columns/aldridge/1168450.html

This is on the zone defense. This is potentially encourage to force stars, especially Shaq/Duncan, to pass out of the post and not let one star to destroy the league like that. It's to encourage passing and encourage perimeter shooting. Key point there. Offense gotten too stagnant and no longer how it was in the 80s with passing or points.


A lack of defensive restrictions will increase the demand for players to have better all-around skills, especially passing. Teams will need five players on the floor who can pass the ball and some good perimeter shooters. And defenders must be alert, quick and ready to make adjustments. Those are all good qualities.

http://static.espn.go.com/nba/s/2001/0412/1171902.html

This is still on zone defense.

And of course people missed the 80s and early 90s.



Michael Jordan has hung up his sneakers, and the 1,000-watt grin of Magic Johnson is now a faded memory. This is not your father's NBA.

Hasn't the time come for every basketball lover in America to get over it, and move on?

Everybody with strong emotional ties to the game, from worried commissioner David Stern to the fan who plunks down $30 for a balcony seat, needs to quit whining about the way things were in the league, when smiling African-American men, who could make suburban America comfortable, were the NBA kings.

The sport needs to quit expecting every rising, young star to be like Mike. And just because Johnson has retired doesn't mean all the magic has disappeared from the game.

...

What has the NBA become in 2001?

Allen Iverson of the Philadelphia 76ers is "The Answer," whether the league likes Iverson or not.

"You can't compare players of this generation to Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson. Those were special people in this sport. You're never going to make up for those guys. Never," Iverson said on the eve of the NBA All-Star Game, where the league tries to score points with the nation by selling the league's leading personalities. "I can't be like Michael Jordan. I can't do the things Michael Jordan did on the court. I try my hardest to win basketball games with my God-given talent. But I can't be Michael Jordan. I can't act like Michael Jordan, talk like Michael Jordan, walk like Michael Jordan, try to play like Michael Jordan. All I can do is be Allen Iverson."

https://extras.denverpost.com/scolumns/kiz0211.htm

[Micku]

But the product that David Stern and company present us night in
and night out is far from lovable. The NBA, 2001 style, is a league
of dull, low-scoring, poorly executed games played by uninspired,
selfish players who lack fundamental skills and are oblivious to
the concept of team basketball.

We don’t hear about great basketball anymore. Instead, we
hear about how Shaq and Kobe don’t get along, or that Allen
Iverson cussed out a fan, or that (insert name here) got busted for
drugs this week. Sure, we always pay attention to the soap opera
aspect of sports. But in basketball, these dramas seem to get all
of the attention.

...

Before we get too far into why today’s players produce
such a horrible product on the court, let’s take a look at
why the game itself has gone down the toilet:

“¢bull; Coaches milking the shot clock: What happened to those
great Lakers vs. Celtics games from the ’80s? The game went
up and down the floor for 48 minutes. The final score was always in
the area of 120-118.

Today, teams walk up the floor and set up their half-court
offenses. The guards hold the ball until there are about five
seconds left on the 24-second clock. Then the team tosses the ball
around until it is forced to throw up a bad shot with about two
seconds left on the clock. The defensive team gets the rebound, and
proceeds to do the exact same thing at the other end of the court!
What happened to pushing the ball down the opposition’s
throat?

“¢bull; Isolation offense: With the current illegal defense
rules, teams basically put the ball in the hands of their best
player and clear out the rest of the team to the opposite side of
the floor. This, of course, draws away the defense so that guys
like Allen Iverson and Vince Carter can go one-on-one with their
defender. Sure, it’s fun to watch Vince dunk on somebody, but
is this the way the sport is supposed to be played, with eight
players just standing and watching the other two go at each
other?

...

“¢bull; Allowing zone defenses: I hope you like watching Brian
Shaw and Rick Fox shoot three pointers all game long because
that’s exactly what will happen when teams get into a zone on
defense. Dominant men like Shaq will be double and triple teamed
all game, which means that we’re going to see long-range
jumpers taken time after time.

...

And can somebody explain this one to me? If scoring is down, and
the league wants the excitement of high scoring games, why give
defenses another means of stopping offenses?

But the blame for the downfall of the NBA doesn’t end with
how the game is played. The bulk of the blame lies with the players
themselves. As former star player and current Indiana Pacers Coach
Isiah Thomas told ESPN.com last
week, “I don’t think the game needs to be tweaked. I
think the players need to be tweaked.”


https://dailybruin.com/2001/04/18/selfish-players-dominate-nba-m

There was a lot of remembering of the glory days all around. If you lived through the time, I think you would remember. From the 98-2005, it was pretty much like that. There was always a "Next" Michael Jordan with a bunch of stars. Sometimes there's a "Next" Magic Johnson. And if you are white and good, you are the "Next" Larry Bird. That still happens today, but it was more prevalent in the late 90s and early 00s. But this is another topic all together, but it's important to understand this is what the fans and the league wanted. They want ratings, the want the money, and the excitement. The 80s not only saved the NBA, but to ppl who watched it, it was the most exciting form of b-ball to them the best era of NBA history. MJ was the best and the most exciting star. Still to this very day, ppl talk about him. The league wanted to emulate this success and make not only the product better to emulate the 80s, but to emulate another MJ and hopefully a Magic and Bird.

[Micku]

And thus the handchecking rules implemented and the focus of establishing more free flow to the perimeter players. If the players didn't do it themselves, the league was going to try their best to influence to league to be like that. To create more perimeter stars and to stop the big men from dominating the league defensively.

People always cite the handchecking rule in 2005. But it went further back than that. It truthfully started in 1980. The 70s also had physical defense, and then the league made the game easier. There was another hand checking rule in 94. When MJ, Bird, and Magic all retired, they league wanted to influence scoring. Thus changed the rules. It was more than hand checking, it was shortening the 3pt line and the 2.9 rule.



At the beginning of this season the NBA implemented four major new rules in hopes of reducing excessively physical play and producing more points. Each rule has already had an impact, for better or worse. Here's how they stack up.

The hands-off policy. Better. This rule against hand checking—which prohibits a defender from placing his hands on the man he's guarding whenever the offensive player is above the foul line extended across the width of the court—is accomplishing its aims.
...
The shorter trey. Worse. These are the world's best shooters. For them the former three-point distance (23'9" at its longest) was a test.
...
No more 2.9. Worse. This rule has eliminated the 2.9 seconds of decision making formerly allotted to a defender before he had to either follow his assigned man above the free throw line or help double-team another offensive player.
...
No taunt. Much better. "The taunting thing is the change I like the most," says Detroit Piston guard Joe Dumars. "The finger-shaking and yelling had no place in the NBA. All it was doing was leading to the next step, which was violence. Now we're just playing basketball."


https://vault.si.com/vault/1995/01/09/the-nba

Doc Rivers even complained that they couldn't play defense anymore then. Of course, any person who is knowledgeable on b-ball know that it didn't plan out like the league wanted. Obviously.

They changed it again in 98, where you can't allow to use your forearm to impede process of the offensive player..

In 2000, they had a couple mores of eliminating the hands and forearms to impede the offense players. And defense being legal on the strong side, but the weak side would have to stay, unless they are double teaming or helping a cutter.

And of course the 2004-05, which clarified the rules and try to enforce them as much as possible to open up the game.

[Micku]

The 3pt revolution and the small ball:

I think this the biggest impact on why the rim protection sucks, it is important to state that the league made rules eliminating the effectiveness of big men to do their job and focus more on the perimeter players. Not only is it harder to defend the perimeter players, there is no physical play anymore, but it's even harder to play defense in the paint. And the mindset and coaching changed. Of course not only analystics, but with players. As Gilbert Arenas said here, the style changed. Instead dishing it to the big man when he has a smaller guy, it was keeping the big man outside so the perimeter player could beat him either off the dribble or shoot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVhqTto0B2I

Teams are also adapting the Suns offense back in the mid 00s more and more. Creating this small ball efficient offense. This in turn, makes the defense worse. But the goal of it is to outscore your opponents. Of course the GSW had their deathline up too, which is like the ultimate small ball. No team today have a big man that could punish it, so all teams pretty much adapted and decided to run it along with them in order to keep up. This opened up the paint a lot more and teams could score there.

[Micku]

TLDR;

THIS ERA ****IN' SUCKS ON DEFENSE!

Y'ALL ACTIN LIKE LEBRON IS BETTER THAN MJ FOR DUNKING ON AN INJURED 6'9 BAM! LEBRON IS A'IGHT, BUT TRY DUNKING ON MOURNING, EWING AND SHAQ WHERE THEY CLOTHESLINE YOU AND IT'S A COMMON FOUL! HOW CAN HE BE THE GOAT WHEN HE CAN'T SHOOT?! AND THE RULES ARE MADE EASIER FOR HIM TO DOMINANT BECAUSE EVERYONE MISSED JORDAN! BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR 20 YEARS AND STILL CHASING MJ. HE BETTER CHASE THAT HAIR OFF CUZ THAT ARTIFICIAL HAIR IS GARBAGE LIKE THIS ERA! MJ STILL HAVE THE BEST PER AND MORE RINGS! EVERYTHING POST 05-06 ON STATS SHOULD BE ASTERISK! 6'8 SMALL FORWARDS CALLING THEMSELVES CENTERS! BITCH PLEEEEEASE! THERE'LL BE BETTER PLAYER THAN MJ! HIS NAME HIS ALEX CARUSO BITCHES!

Goat debate is over with. Laterz hoop fans.

[Kblaze8855]

An awful lot of it is just the difference between a guy going one on one vs a team that was built to defend post bigs and today where people only go to the basket to begin with if theres a lane for a layup or a dunk. Guys pass out of even remotely contested shots at the rim for threes. Not all the time...but you see it 5-10 times a game. Guys dont want to even be in the paint if they cant score easily....leads to higher at the rim numbers over time im sure.

Not a lot of Duncan on Zo one on one action.

Guys wanna dunk it or kick it out.

[SATAN]

LeBron would have also dominated the 90s. Get over it.

[Baller789]

LeBron would have also dominated the 90s. Get over it.

Because?

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron would have also dominated the 90s. Get over it.
Maybe, but he would never win a ring out west

[SATAN]

Because?

He's one of the greatest of all time. An athletic freak with an impressive skill set. Do I really need to explain it? If he were born earlier his game would be for that era. Don't see why he wouldn't still have the same dedication. People act like the 90s were a completely different game altogether. The blind assumption that there's no way a player of today could play well in another era is idiotic quite frankly.

[Mr. Woke]

Handchecking is lazy defense.

You play defense with your feet, not with your hands lol.

[dankok8]

Holy. Micku just buried half of the posters on here... :roll:

[Mr. Woke]

TLDR;

THIS ERA ****IN' SUCKS ON DEFENSE!

Y'ALL ACTIN LIKE LEBRON IS BETTER THAN MJ FOR DUNKING ON AN INJURED 6'9 BAM! LEBRON IS A'IGHT, BUT TRY DUNKING ON MOURNING, EWING AND SHAQ WHERE THEY CLOTHESLINE YOU AND IT'S A COMMON FOUL! HOW CAN HE BE THE GOAT WHEN HE CAN'T SHOOT?! AND THE RULES ARE MADE EASIER FOR HIM TO DOMINANT BECAUSE EVERYONE MISSED JORDAN! BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR 20 YEARS AND STILL CHASING MJ. HE BETTER CHASE THAT HAIR OFF CUZ THAT ARTIFICIAL HAIR IS GARBAGE LIKE THIS ERA! MJ STILL HAVE THE BEST PER AND MORE RINGS! EVERYTHING POST 05-06 ON STATS SHOULD BE ASTERISK! 6'8 SMALL FORWARDS CALLING THEMSELVES CENTERS! BITCH PLEEEEEASE! THERE'LL BE BETTER PLAYER THAN MJ! HIS NAME HIS ALEX CARUSO BITCHES!

Goat debate is over with. Laterz hoop fans.

Take off the nostalgia goggles.

You are living in the past.

[SATAN]

Holy. Micku just tickled my confirmation bias... :roll:

We know

[Micku]

He's one of the greatest of all time. An athletic freak with an impressive skill set. Do I really need to explain it? If he were born earlier his game would be for that era. Don't see why he wouldn't still have the same dedication. People act like the 90s were a completely different game altogether. The blind assumption that there's no way a player of today could play well in another era is idiotic quite frankly.

I think LeBron James could play in any era and dominant regardless. His finishing at the rim ability has stayed relatively unchanged throughout the years.

The only thing that I disagree with is the efficiency of the star players. Star players are star players regardless of the era. We seen this I think constantly with Kobe, Kareem and even LeBron and MJ. Like MJ efficiency at the rim was super low in 97, but I wonder what's his efficiency at the rim was in the 80s. It didn't really matter if the rules the changed for star players, but it's how you play the game. Rules could influence it, but it depends with the teams at the time. The late 90s and the 10s are different in terms of style. late 90s are slower pace and a lot more iso. It stayed that way till like late 00s. 10s has a lot of isos too, but the spacing is more spread out and not a lot of post action. More movement tho. Like the Rockets are nothing but isos. But the Lakers have more fluid movement and balance. Same thing as Miami. The game was played differently in offense and defense. That was I wanted to show in the post . The rules changing and the style. I wanted to pinpoint at the source of it. Starting from the late 80s all the way till now. But I knew ppl would be so caught up in LeBron vs MJ in the tldr section and ignore the entire body of work.

Basically, this thread is about style and rules and the effects of it. Like the 80s are different from the 90s. The 2000s are different from the 10s. I went through point by point separating the eras, what the fans and the league wanted to do in each era.

Y'all can debate about LBJ vs MJ if you want tho. That isn't the main point of the thread, lol. I know it's a fun topic to debate anyway. Have at it.

[Micku]

An awful lot of it is just the difference between a guy going one on one vs a team that was built to defend post bigs and today where people only go to the basket to begin with if theres a lane for a layup or a dunk. Guys pass out of even remotely contested shots at the rim for threes. Not all the time...but you see it 5-10 times a game. Guys dont want to even be in the paint if they cant score easily....leads to higher at the rim numbers over time im sure.

Not a lot of Duncan on Zo one on one action.

Guys wanna dunk it or kick it out.

I think you're right about that.
But I feel like it's more than that. There's a lot more spacing involved in today's game, which allows more opportunity to get to the basket. And more teams are playing small ball for the quickness and the ability to switch instead of camping at the paint like they used to. With the better spacing, I feel like this creates a better passing opportunities that they don't have to force the issue. But the effectiveness is really surprising in hindsight tho. Almost 10% better at the rim than in the 00s. And a full 10% better than the late 90s. Very shocking to find out that.

[dankok8]

We know

You must be part of the "1-9 without Pippen" group of experts.

[SATAN]

You must be part of the "1-9 without Pippen" group of experts.

Absolutely.

[SATAN]

I think LeBron James could play in any era and dominant regardless. His finishing at the rim ability has stayed relatively unchanged throughout the years.

The only thing that I disagree with is the efficiency of the star players. Star players are star players regardless of the era. We seen this I think constantly with Kobe, Kareem and even LeBron and MJ. Like MJ efficiency at the rim was super low in 97, but I wonder what's his efficiency at the rim was in the 80s. It didn't really matter if the rules the changed for star players, but it's how you play the game. Rules could influence it, but it depends with the teams at the time. The late 90s and the 10s are different in terms of style. late 90s are slower pace and a lot more iso. It stayed that way till like late 00s. 10s has a lot of isos too, but the spacing is more spread out and not a lot of post action. More movement tho. Like the Rockets are nothing but isos. But the Lakers have more fluid movement and balance. Same thing as Miami. The game was played differently in offense and defense. That was I wanted to show in the post . The rules changing and the style. I wanted to pinpoint at the source of it. Starting from the late 80s all the way till now. But I knew ppl would be so caught up in LeBron vs MJ in the tldr section and ignore the entire body of work.

Basically, this thread is about style and rules and the effects of it. Like the 80s are different from the 90s. The 2000s are different from the 10s. I went through point by point separating the eras, what the fans and the league wanted to do in each era.

Y'all can debate about LBJ vs MJ if you want tho. That isn't the main point of the thread, lol. I know it's a fun topic to debate anyway. Have at it.

Oh fair enough, my bad. I kinda skimmed through but I have watched basketball since the 80s anyway. After seeing the last post in caps I thought it was just another LeBron bashing thread. Will give it all a proper read. Did you actually type all of this out or is it copy and pasted from somewhere?

[Micku]

Oh fair enough, my bad. I kinda skimmed through but I have watched basketball since the 80s anyway. After seeing the last post in caps I thought it was just another LeBron bashing thread. Will give it all a proper read. Did you actually type all of this out or is it copy and pasted from somewhere?

I actually typed all it out. I was thinking about it for a couple of days.

TL;DR was more of a troll to see who would read the body work or not. I know it's a lot.

I might post it on other sites, but take out the TL;DR.

[Axe]

You must be part of the "1-9 without Pippen" group of experts.
His usual pathetic shtick in this board is to beg attention from posters he doesn't agree with. He can't be taken too seriously.

[SATAN]

Can you please stop stalking me and ruining the thread? This is a thread for serious knowledgeable discussion. For fans of the game of basketball, not fans of the internet.

Sorry about him Micku, he's a little slow. As you were, gents.

[Baller789]

He's one of the greatest of all time. An athletic freak with an impressive skill set. Do I really need to explain it? If he were born earlier his game would be for that era. Don't see why he wouldn't still have the same dedication. People act like the 90s were a completely different game altogether. The blind assumption that there's no way a player of today could play well in another era is idiotic quite frankly.
He also wouldnt have access to more advanced training, medicine and nutrition. Or even PEDs if possible.

It goes both ways.

[Micku]

Handchecking is lazy defense.

You play defense with your feet, not with your hands lol.

I won't say it's lazy defense. It's probably more effective defense when dedicating where the player is suppose to go. I believe colleges and international play have it? I dunno for sure.

Handchecking has been gutted a few times throughout the decades, even from the 80s. It was to the point where you couldn't handcheck above the FT line before it was eliminated entirely. So, you could only dedicate so much of where you want the offense to go, but you can still direct it. It was more effective in the 80-90s because teams took more shots at the midrange than the 3pt shot. And removing hand checking in general helped to increase scoring and the pacing, which is what the league wanted.

But it isn't a reason why there is a high FG% at the rim compared to the 90s and 00s. Or it isn't the only reason. It's a combination of how the game is played now with b-ball IQ, small ball, the league gutting how effective centers could defend, and the league clamping down on the hard fouls, which influence the psychological.

The league wanted the game to be less physical to increase ratings. As I said before, they wanted to emulate the 80s success. Everybody apparently missed it after nearly a decade of slow pace, grit and grind b-ball in the late 90s and early 00s. I think the problem with that is that there wasn't enough talent in the league to do so and the b-ball IQ wasn't there, so they wanted to influence it via rules. To create easier opportunities to do so.

One of the fears when doing zone and doing these rule changing is the volume of 3pt shot. They had to do more spacing. But then, analytics came in along with the Suns and GSW, and we have a 3pt craze. It stretches out the big man, and since no there is no more Shaq, Hakeem, and other big men of the 90s to punish it, we went small ball. And here we are.

[Smoke117]

The way the game is now this shouldn't be surprising. These days you want Centers who are multi faceted. Fact of the matter is the most of the guys who are good defensively in the paint are awful shooters and if you can't shoot you aren't going to play anymore. The game has just become a shoot out where defense is an outlier in general. They really should bring back hand checking.

[Mr. Woke]

I won't say it's lazy defense. It's probably more effective defense when dedicating where the player is suppose to go. I believe colleges and international play have it? I dunno for sure.

Handchecking has been gutted a few times throughout the decades, even from the 80s. It was to the point where you couldn't handcheck above the FT line before it was eliminated entirely. So, you could only dedicate so much of where you want the offense to go, but you can still direct it. It was more effective in the 80-90s because teams took more shots at the midrange than the 3pt shot. And removing hand checking in general helped to increase scoring and the pacing, which is what the league wanted.

But it isn't a reason why there is a high FG% at the rim compared to the 90s and 00s. Or it isn't the only reason. It's a combination of how the game is played now with b-ball IQ, small ball, the league gutting how effective centers could defend, and the league clamping down on the hard fouls, which influence the psychological.

The league wanted the game to be less physical to increase ratings. As I said before, they wanted to emulate the 80s success. Everybody apparently missed it after nearly a decade of slow pace, grit and grind b-ball in the late 90s and early 00s. I think the problem with that is that there wasn't enough talent in the league to do so and the b-ball IQ wasn't there, so they wanted to influence it via rules. To create easier opportunities to do so.

One of the fears when doing zone and doing these rule changing is the volume of 3pt shot. They had to do more spacing. But then, analytics came in along with the Suns and GSW, and we have a 3pt craze. It stretches out the big man, and since no there is no more Shaq, Hakeem, and other big men of the 90s to punish it, we went small ball. And here we are.

Handchecking has no place in the NBA.

It should be eliminated.

[Baller789]

Handchecking has no place in the NBA.

It should be eliminated.

Why?

[ralph_i_el]

More players shoot 3's, at a higher rate and %, specifically for this reason. Spacing creates shots in the paint.

[Baller789]

More players shoot 3's, at a higher rate and %, specifically for this reason. Spacing creates shots in the paint.

Thats why this era annoys me.

It's basically turned into a 3 point shooting contest.

[Mr. Woke]

Why?

It is lazy defense.

[MadDog]

Handchecking has no place in the NBA.


It is lazy defense.

You've never touched a basketball in your life. Stop it :oldlol:

[Baller789]

It is lazy defense.

You've probably never actually played basketball. Lol
Or if you did, probably suck at D. LOL

[And1AllDay]

op, you really forgetting spacing becos people can shoot now, meaning more skills to score so no 7 foot traffic cone stationed in 1 spot. gotta move these days

[Mr. Woke]

You've never touched a basketball in your life. Stop it :oldlol:

Quit projecting pupper.

[Mr. Woke]

You've probably never actually played basketball. Lol
Or if you did, probably suck at D. LOL

Quit projecting pupper.

Take off the nostalgia goggles.

[Baller789]

op, you really forgetting spacing becos people can shoot now, meaning more skills to score so no 7 foot traffic cone stationed in 1 spot. gotta move these days

This era is all about 3 point shooting period.

Rule changes basically removed rim protection.

[And1AllDay]

This era is all about 3 point shooting period.

Rule changes basically removed rim protection.

offensive skills win

mike shoulda learned to shoot :oldlol:

[Baller789]

offensive skills win

mike shoulda learned to shoot :oldlol:

No dumbass. Scoring spiked as soon as rule changes were introduced.

[And1AllDay]

No dumbass. Scoring spiked as soon as rule changes were introduced.

Yes dumbass

Your a 2020 newbie stfu :oldlol:

offensive skills win

mike shoulda learned to shoot

[Baller789]

Yes dumbass

Your a 2020 newbie stfu :oldlol:

offensive skills win

mike shoulda learned to shoot
And you have no argument..
1-9 brain eh?

[And1AllDay]

And you have no argument..
1-9 brain eh?

2020 rookie accts know nothing

[Baller789]

2020 rookie accts know nothing

So what your counter argument with that gigantic brain of yours?
1-9?

[Micku]

More players shoot 3's, at a higher rate and %, specifically for this reason. Spacing creates shots in the paint.

It's not the only reason why, but it's definitely one of the biggest reasons.

The rules made it harder for big men to protect the paint in general. Due to the nature of the league wanting the NBA to be less physical. Even now, the league made rules in 2017 and 2018 to protect shooters, one of them which was kind'a caused by Kawhi and Zaza. It gives them more space to really shoot the 3. And the rules also influence it.

I think the rules help steer the league into this direction, the coaching philosophy is the biggest reason too. More 3s, more spacing. There's no more Shaq, Kareem, or Hakeem in the league to punish the small ball lineup. Even if they was, I think most coaches would tell them to shoot the 3ball anyway. Some teams like the Clips I think suffered tho. Against the Mavs, they had trouble with their size. Especially when they were playing small ball. Boban was destroying them as well Porziņgis. Denver also did the same. Small ball didn't work with them.

I think it just depends on how good your bigs are. As I said before, the league gutted bigs because of the dominance of Shaq and the pacing of the 90s and early 00s, so it made them less effective. I think it'll continue like this until we get the next great big who can punish this and/or if they made some rule changes. It won't happen over night, but it'll happen gradually just like this era happened gradually. If one team does it and becomes successful with it, then everyone would try to do it.

Pistons played a slow pace, half court, defensive game that was physical. Different from what they used to play before. Other teams copied.

Big men use the rules to slow down the pace even more. Abuse one on one and camping in the paint.

MJ played iso a bit. Other teams copied. Give the ball to your best player and let them go to work.

Shaq dominated.

League didn't like it, so they changed the rules.

Suns happened. Analytics too. Teams copied it.

Shaq got old.

GSW happened. Small ball was more apparent. Teams copied it. A good big man is rare these days.

So, here we are.

[Baller789]

So what your counter argument with that gigantic brain of yours?
1-9?

And1AllDay all I hear are crickets.
Whats your counter?

1-9?

Yikes!

[Baller789]

It's not the only reason why, but it's definitely one of the biggest reasons.

The rules made it harder for big men to protect the paint in general. Due to the nature of the league wanting the NBA to be less physical. Even now, the league made rules in 2017 and 2018 to protect shooters, one of them which was kind'a caused by Kawhi and Zaza. It gives them more space to really shoot the 3. And the rules also influence it.

I think the rules help steer the league into this direction, the coaching philosophy is the biggest reason too. More 3s, more spacing. There's no more Shaq, Kareem, or Hakeem in the league to punish the small ball lineup. Even if they was, I think most coaches would tell them to shoot the 3ball anyway. Some teams like the Clips I think suffered tho. Against the Mavs, they had trouble with their size. Especially when they were playing small ball. Boban was destroying them as well Porziņgis. Denver also did the same. Small ball didn't work with them.

I think it just depends on how good your bigs are. As I said before, the league gutted bigs because of the dominance of Shaq and the pacing of the 90s and early 00s, so it made them less effective. I think it'll continue like this until we get the next great big who can punish this and/or if they made some rule changes. It won't happen over night, but it'll happen gradually just like this era happened gradually. If one team does it and becomes successful with it, then everyone would try to do it.

Pistons played a slow pace, half court, defensive game that was physical. Different from what they used to play before. Other teams copied.

Big men use the rules to slow down the pace even more. Abuse one on one and camping in the paint.

MJ played iso a bit. Other teams copied. Give the ball to your best player and let them go to work.

Shaq dominated.

League didn't like it, so they changed the rules.

Suns happened. Analytics too. Teams copied it.

Shaq got old.

GSW happened. Small ball was more apparent. Teams copied it. A good big man is rare these days.

So, here we are.
This is pretty accurate.
Though this no rim protection era sucks because even mediocre guards can get to the basket with relative ease.
Before, it would take something special to go all the way and finish consistently.

I don't think there will be another dominant big with these rules. The best we could do are Davis, Embid and Joker. Which as good as they are, arent dominant in my eyes.

[Micku]

Now you got dumb plays like this:
https://twitter.com/GPHatesThisApp/status/1365157759705088000


But even this video explains it, but it doesn't go through the trickle down effect of what happened. It's been a long time coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32l4gIoxfY8


As a recap:
80s was the golden era.

Pistons played great defense and slow down pace. Teams copied it, going to the 90s. (Bulls played it too, but the Pistons were more known for it.)

League got super slow and tried to increase scoring cuz they thought it would boost ratings. But MJ was a global icon, so all is well till he retired.

Prime Shaq happened. Teams complained cuz he was too dominant. Some guys who would play center, went to the PF spot cuz they don't wanna deal with him. League changed the rules. Zone. 3 defensive second. All to slow him and other big men down who abuse the rules.

League got super slow. Lots of iso ball. League changed the rules to speed things up and let perimeter players have more freedom. They wanted teamplay of the 80s, and stars like MJ, Bird, and Magic.

Mike D'antoni Phoenix Suns happen. Influence the league with pacing. And the stretch 4. Increase 3pointers, but more with running up and down the floor.

Prime Steph and Warriors happened. 3pt craze. Teams trying to copy their playstyle for success.

So, here we are. Shaq destroyed the big men for nearly two decades. Both offense and defense. Physical defense is gone. Steph accelerated the value of the 3pt shot.

[dankok8]

A real big dominant big like Shaq would absolutely obliterate teams in today's league. He could singlehandedly change the NBA, probably even force major rule changes. Spacing makes traditional bigs like Shaq more vulnerable on D although he would just defend a non-shooter (there is still one on almost every team)and just sag off of him and stay in the paint. And on offense he'd have so much space. Defending him 1-on-1 just isn't feasible but you can't leave 3pt shooters open... so yea. BBQ chicken. Even big dudes like Embiid, Boban etc. couldn't grapple with him.

A 6'7'' 280 lbs Zion is manhandling the league. Imagine a 7'1'' 330 lbs behemoth who is even more athletic than Zion. It would be a bloodbath.

[light]

Centers defend on the perimeter now.

They’re still good rim protectors when they’re there, but unlike the 90s they’re not always around the rim on defense. These days the rim is “protected” more often by guards and forwards.

[DoctorP]

your rim is not protected from the anus of an african sausage.

[clipps]

When you have 5 perimeter players on the court, rim protection is gonna suck. Pretty basic concept if you as me.

[dankok8]

Let's say Shaq plays on the modern Sixers surrounded by Danny Green. Seth Curry, Tobias Harris and Furkhan Korkmaz. What would you do as the defense?

[Airupthere]

Let's say Shaq plays on the modern Sixers surrounded by Danny Green. Seth Curry, Tobias Harris and Furkhan Korkmaz. What would you do as the defense?

Flop? Pray?

[2much_knowledge]

Because?

Nice posts Micku. Well explained and in detail.

[999Guy]

Bad Boys Pistons started this:
Back then, teams were running the fastbreaks all the time. They would outrun you. The Pistons tried this too, but it didn't work out for them. Then they started to slow down the pace in the late 80s and play more half court and limit the fastbreaks. They weren't the first team to do this, but they were the first team that other ppl thought they could emulate since they didn't have the talent like the Lakers, Celts, 76ers and other top teams of the 80s.

The problem with the Pistons were the fouls. Back then, this hard fouls was a common foul. Like even when Mchale clothesline Rambis, you can hear the commentators say at the end "It's just part of the game.":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7r6vXeOfyQ

Mchale wasn't ejected. He came back in and watched Rambis shoot the FT. It was either the refs start to call more fouls, the game would get more intense and physical or the players would fight. But this foul along with the Celtics started to play more physical, it screw up with the Lakers mindset. They wanted probably wanted to fight sometimes instead of winning.

Keep in mind, not every team did this. There was no hard fouls constantly like this. But the Pistons would abuse the rule. Foul you hard and Bill Laimbeer would try to hurt you and then cry to the refs in every play. This could potentially discourage teams from going to the paint. It's wasn't always the contest, it was the beating you could get. They would lay you on your ass. It was the mindset. Even the Celts did this, but not like the Pistons. Again, it's usually part of the game to foul hard. But the Pistons took it an extra step. Even if you would shoot a jump shot, Bill Laimbeer would get into your space, sometimes slip a foot where you would land to roll your ankles. But despite him, they would still foul you hard. Players knew that, and were okay with it. But there's always a line that you shouldn't cross.

You could hear Larry Bird talk about it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USd3YagNFXY#t=18m23s


Because the complaints, they soften the rules up a little bit. Larry Bird even admits that they had to change the rules because eventually someone was going to get hurt.

The rest of the league took notice of how successful they Pistons were, so they emulated them. The Knicks was probably the most successful team to do it similar. They didn't do the cheap shots like the Pistons, but they had guys who could lock down the paint and foul you hard when come to the paint. And the rest of the 90s, the pace started to slow down compared to what they were in the 80s. Part of the reason is because they didn't have the talent to run, there was more emphasis on defense, and passing it to the big guy to score.



~
March 4, 1990
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-03-04-sp-2723-story.html


The Pistons impact and their play style set the tone from the 90s-mid 00s. And the league tried to get away from. Of course there are other reasons why, but we'll get into that too.

I can’t believe this guy built a supposed goat level career on a trash conference, and really relatively trash league that didn’t play defense.

The pistons didn’t invent defense-minded basketball. The 80s were soft.