Why did Jordan only make 6 finals appearances? What happened the rest of his career?

[Nash]

Compared to rest of the greatest players who managed to make more finals appearances than he did. Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Russell got there more and dominated their post seasons. What was he doing the rest of his career?

For being the 2nd greatest player of all time, thats just very...... underwhelming.

[Shooter]

His consistency is very low. Basically it was win a ring or miss the playoffs for Mike. He lacked GOAT level consistency so that's why it's hard to put him in the top 3 now.

[starface]

Guys without a jumper who rely on hyper athleticism like MJ and Wade generally have about a six year window to really play their best before the wheels fall off. Obviously it’s better than nothing and Id take those guys over most role players, but the lack of longevity is a legit knock on MJ and is the main barrier that keeps him out of the current Top 5.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Guys without a jumper who rely on hyper athleticism like MJ and Wade generally have about a six year window to really play their best before the wheels fall off. Obviously it’s better than nothing and Id take those guys over most role players, but the lack of longevity is a legit knock on MJ and is the main barrier that keeps him out of the current Top 5.

This, and the impact argument. Neither Wade or Jordan had great impact which significantly lowers their status'. I have Jordan in the 9-12 range and Wade somewhere in the 40s. (Behind guys like Pippen and Pau, respectively)

[TheGoatest]

Very good point. 10-17 >>> 6-15

[Trollsmasher]

jordan only ever won when he was a favorite

this with a few solitary exceptions applies to not only Finals but to all the other series as well as even singular games

so pretty much every other season he didn't have a superteam around him turned out to be a complete catastrophe because he himself only added 2 wins to his team

[And1AllDay]

i used to have mike top 5 but this shit is wild

might push him further out now

[Axe]

We already have a thread like this, op.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Great to see young people striving to learn the history of the game. As a basketball historian, I hope can answer your question.

Jordan played 3 years in the league before the arrival of Scottie Pippen. The bulls simply did not have enough talent and Mj was not good enough to lift them to high seeds entering the playoffs. As a result the Jordan and the Bulls went 1-9 in the playoffs. I made a thread about when Jordan put the "1" in "1-9" or "1/10" here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486374-FLASHBACK-When-Jordan-and-the-Bulls-Put-the-quot-1-quot-in-1-9

Enter: Scottie Pippen. With a young, raw Scottie, the Bulls began to improve during Scottie's first 3 years. They finally made it out of the first round. A rookie Scottie who had averaged just 8 points that year put up a clutch 24 points against the Cavaliers in a do-or-die game 5 in 1988 to lift the Bulls out of the first round, see http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?377923-Flashback-Scottie-Pippen-24-Points-vs-Cleveland-in-1988.

The Bulls had a lot more playoff success over these 3 years as scottie developed into a superstar. Finally, in Scottie's 4th year 1991 they broke through. Scottie would lead the Bulls in scoring with 32 in the close-out game 5 of the 1991 finals to lift the Bulls to their first NBA title.

The Bulls would win again in 1992 and 1993. In 1993 Jordan "retired" and was replaced with Pete Myers, who had bounced around the NBA and spent the previous two years playing in Italy. Scottie put up an MVP-calibre season and got the Bulls out of the first round - a feat never accomplished by Jordan w/o Pippen. They would fall short to the eventual eastern conference champion Knicks (who narrowly lost in the finals in a game 7 to the Rockets due to a blocked John Starks shot in game 6) despite outscoring them in aggregate over the series.

In 1995 the Bulls were a weaker team. They had lost all-defensive player and all-star Horace Grant and not yet acquired all-defensive and all-star player Dennis Rodman. Jordan returned but simply didn't play up to par. The Bulls lost in 6 to Shaquille O'neal's Orlando Magic despite being the betting favorites going in. Pippen tried his best, scoring a team-high 26 points 12 rebounds to go with 6 assists in the do-or-die game 6. Jordan, however, didn't play well. He scored 24 points on 42% shooting and 6 turnovers. The Bulls lost.

In 1995-96, the Bulls acquired the aforementioned stud Dennis Rodman and the league expanded by two Canadian expansion teams. With the improved roster, Pippen out for blood, and the watered-down league the Bulls' relative position shifted. They were now a stacked juggernaut. They would win 72 games and play the Seattle Supersonics in the finals. The series was a defensive battle, with Jordan putting up just 27 points on 41% shooting. Pippen struggled offensively as well, but dominated defensively. In the closeout game Pippen would post 17/8/5 and 4 steals and Rodman 9/19/5 with 3 steals and block, helping to lift the Bulls and a struggling Jordan, who put up 22 points on 26% shooting, to their 4th championship.

The Bulls would not stop there. Winning two more titles in 1997 and 1998. Jordan "retired" again.

A past-prime Pippen would go on to have success with other teams, almost capturing his 7th title in 2000 but losing to the Kobe-Shaq Lakers in a hard-fought 7 game series. Interestingly, Pippen's Blazers, much like his 1994 team, outscored the Lakers in the aggregate of the series. Bad luck. Pippen spent much of the series guarding Kobe Bryant and held him below his season average despite Kobe playing 43 minutes.

Jordan would return and play the 2002 and 2003 seasons with the Wizards. The Wizards were a poor team -- they had no Pippen or Rodman. He would miss the playoffs both years, shooting terrible percentages. He did have some nice highlights though.

I hope that answers your question!

[pauk]

He was doing something the "6/6 Finals" narrative is desperately trying to forget/hide/not count... He was losing earlier and/or missing the playoffs entirely....

[And1AllDay]

He was doing something the "6/6 Finals" narrative is desperately trying to forget/hide/not count... He was losing earlier and/or missing the playoffs entirely....

wow

so not even 2nd place? worse? 16th place?

[Young X]

Two things.

There were great teams in the east in the 80's.

And his team was still developing. MJ needed Pippen to develop into being a star to give him some help.

[Marchesk]

Jordan didn't form a super team in some warm vacation spot. He patiently molded his Bulls into championship material in the windy city until they could overcome the great 80s teams.

[dankok8]

Jordan only had an all-star caliber player next to him (prime Pippen) for eight seasons. He won a championship in six of those and in the seventh one he was most likely one more win away from a title.

[Baller789]

Jordan only had an all-star caliber player next to him (prime Pippen) for eight seasons. He won a championship in six of those and in the seventh one he was most likely one more win away from a title.

Lebrontards dont know anything about building a team from ground up.
All they know is collusions and team hopping when the going gets tough.

[Shooter]

Jordan only had an all-star caliber player next to him (prime Pippen) for eight seasons. He won a championship in six of those and in the seventh one he was most likely one more win away from a title.

MJ had 15 all NBA and all defensive teammate selections

LBJ had 7

Wake up noob

[Shooter]

His consistency is very low. Basically it was win a ring or miss the playoffs for Mike. He lacked GOAT level consistency so that's why it's hard to put him in the top 3 now.

[Real Men Wear Green]

His consistency is very low. Basically it was win a ring or miss the playoffs for Mike. He lacked GOAT level consistency so that's why it's hard to put him in the top 3 now.
Do you believe the stupid shit that you write?

[light]

Compared to rest of the greatest players who managed to make more finals appearances than he did. Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Russell got there more and dominated their post seasons. What was he doing the rest of his career?

For being the 2nd greatest player of all time, thats just very...... underwhelming.

He thought that's all he needed to do. I mean, at that time 6 finals appearances was a lot.

The stuff that Bill Russell did in the 60s was legend and almost mythological in the 1990s so I'm sure MJ never thought someone would come along and do something like that again, but then LeBron happened.

[tanibanana]

He did not win.

I don't care about the context.. i don't care about Jordan's excuse, good or bad, reasonable or not.

He lost more than he won.

[Gohan]

Lebrontards dont know anything about building a team from ground up.
All they know is collusions and team hopping when the going gets tough.

:roll: so true

[trada7029]

He did not win.

I don't care about the context.. i don't care about Jordan's excuse, good or bad, reasonable or not.

He lost more than he won.


Jordan has the goat championship frequency of the modern era/3-pointer basketball (6/15 or 40%)

And Jordan would've matched bill russell with 8 straight if he didn't play baseball - some 60's shit in the 90's, aka GOAT

[Axe]

Jordan has the goat championship frequency of the modern era/3-pointer basketball (6/15 or 40%)

And Jordan would've matched bill russell with 8 straight if he didn't play baseball - some 60's shit in the 90's, aka GOAT
Another obvious copypasta crap by 3ball

[ZionDunks]

His consistency is very low. Basically it was win a ring or miss the playoffs for Mike. He lacked GOAT level consistency so that's why it's hard to put him in the top 3 now.

Hilarious. The type of post that makes me think you never saw him play or weren’t born when he played.

[Cyrus334]

He did not win.

I don't care about the context.. i don't care about Jordan's excuse, good or bad, reasonable or not.

He lost more than he won.

News flash buddy, that's normal.

Jordan - 6/15
Lebron - 4/18
Magic - 5/12
Bird - 3/13
Kareem - 6/20
Shaq - 4/20
Duncan - 5/19
Kobe - 5/20
Wilt - 2/15
Hakeem - 2/18

[Kiddlovesnets]

The other years his team was not good enough. You can check the below link for pre-season odds, which describes which team was expected to win the title in the upcoming season. Note MJ's Bulls were only favorite to win in 5 out of the 6 title runs(with 1990-1991 season being only 4th favorite behind Pistons, Lakers and Spurs). In contrast, Lebron's team was favored to win 6 years in a row from 11 to 16, and only managed 3 out of 6:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991_preseason_odds.html

[dankok8]

The other years his team was not good enough. You can check the below link for pre-season odds, which describes which team was expected to win the title in the upcoming season. Note MJ's Bulls were only favorite to win in 5 out of the 6 title runs(with 1990-1991 season being only 4th favorite behind Pistons, Lakers and Spurs). In contrast, Lebron's team was favored to win 6 years in a row from 11 to 16, and only managed 3 out of 6:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991_preseason_odds.html

Wait so MJ was a title favorite 5 times and won 6 titles. And Lebron was a title favorite 6 times and won 4 titles (including 2020). MJ won more than expected and Lebron won less. And of course MJ wasn't getting outplayed in the playoffs. That's really the biggest problem with Lebron's GOAT case to me. How can you be the GOAT when you're not playing like a GOAT? I look at Lebron's 2015 Finals loss and say ok.. I can excuse him for that despite bad shooting because he played really well all-around. But 2007 playing like crap outplayed by Tony Parker? MJ would play better. 2011 debacle? MJ would play better. 2014 suffering a record loss by the Spurs and having little impact, outplayed by Kawhi? MJ would play better. 2017 and 2018 getting played to at least a draw by Durant? MJ would play better. MJ never got outplayed by Magic, Bird, Shaq, Malone, Barkley... he isn't getting outplayed by KD in any series. Lebron has too many series where he didn't play at his best and lost in the process. MJ doesn't have any. Kareem has only one in 1973.

His accomplishments just feel hollow compared to Jordan and Kareem. Best career when it's all said and done? Probably Lebron although he still has a bit further to go to pass Kareem and it's arguable whether anyone can ever pass Russell. Best player? No. And I hear Perkins call Stephen A and Max haters when they say there's nothing Lebron can do to surpass Jordan. I agree Lebron is simply a worse basketball player and I doubt he's gonna show us another level better than his 2012 self at age 36. It's hard for me to say a guy is GOAT when there are a few guys clearly better at basketball at their peaks.

[TheGoatest]

This is the question that will be asked most about Jordan, the more years pass since the end of his career.
Along with why he lost three times in the first round.

Enormous flaws in his career that can never be ignored.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Wait so MJ was a title favorite 5 times and won 6 titles. And Lebron was a title favorite 6 times and won 4 titles (including 2020). MJ won more than expected and Lebron won less. And of course MJ wasn't getting outplayed in the playoffs. That's really the biggest problem with Lebron's GOAT case to me. How can you be the GOAT when you're not playing like a GOAT? I look at Lebron's 2015 Finals loss and say ok.. I can excuse him for that despite bad shooting because he played really well all-around. But 2007 playing like crap outplayed by Tony Parker? MJ would play better. 2011 debacle? MJ would play better. 2014 suffering a record loss by the Spurs and having little impact, outplayed by Kawhi? MJ would play better. 2017 and 2018 getting played to at least a draw by Durant? MJ would play better. MJ never got outplayed by Magic, Bird, Shaq, Malone, Barkley... he isn't getting outplayed by KD in any series. Lebron has too many series where he didn't play at his best and lost in the process. MJ doesn't have any. Kareem has only one in 1973.

His accomplishments just feel hollow compared to Jordan and Kareem. Best career when it's all said and done? Probably Lebron although he still has a bit further to go to pass Kareem and it's arguable whether anyone can ever pass Russell. Best player? No. And I hear Perkins call Stephen A and Max haters when they say there's nothing Lebron can do to surpass Jordan. I agree Lebron is simply a worse basketball player and I doubt he's gonna show us another level better than his 2012 self at age 36. It's hard for me to say a guy is GOAT when there are a few guys clearly better at basketball at their peaks.

Lebron already had no GOAT case since he got swept by Duncan and Spurs in 2007, since one of the three necessary conditions for GOAT(100% record in NBA Finals series) was no longer attainable for him. I made the post simply to get them to stop questioning MJ's record outside of the 6 title runs, 'cause his team was not expected to win in any of these years that he lost.

[Hey Yo]

Jordan only had an all-star caliber player next to him (prime Pippen) for eight seasons. He won a championship in six of those and in the seventh one he was most likely one more win away from a title.
Pippen was named All-NBA on both sides of the court for 5 of the Bulls 6 titles. Rodman lead the league in rebounding all 3yrs with the Bulls and was 1st team all-defense in 1996. Kukoc 6th man of the year in 1996.

More stacked than any team, in any year LeBron has played

[dankok8]

Pippen was named All-NBA on both sides of the court for 5 of the Bulls 6 titles. Rodman lead the league in rebounding all 3yrs with the Bulls and was 1st team all-defense in 1996. Kukoc 6th man of the year in 1996.

More stacked than any team, in any year LeBron has played

The second threepeat Bulls had a lot of defensive talent but MJ carried them on offense to a very large degree. It wasn't uncommon to see MJ score 80-90% of their 4th quarter points.

[Airupthere]

6/6, 6 finals mvps. That is as consistent as you can get. Once MJ had support, he never let go of that position at the top.

Lebron's approach is to keep scouring for the next opportunity to stay in a strong position (ie, through recruitments, collusions), and loading up his stats on the way so win or lose he doesn't get blamed. Then not have the killer instinct to finish up with the ring year in and year out.

AD, Love and Bosh had their rpgs go down significantly upon joining lebron. Lebron dominates the ball until he runs the confidence out of AD, Bosh and Love so that they learn be spectators to a ball dominant player. Once that ball dominant player leaves, they are also done themselves.

[rawimpact]

Guilt from killing his father.

[Axe]

Lebron already had no GOAT case since he got swept by Duncan and Spurs in 2007, since one of the three necessary conditions for GOAT(100% record in NBA Finals series) was no longer attainable for him. I made the post simply to get them to stop questioning MJ's record outside of the 6 title runs, 'cause his team was not expected to win in any of these years that he lost.
What a delusional take.

[Shooter]

His consistency is very poor. It was basically win a ring or miss the playoffs for Mikey Mouse. He lacked GOAT level consistency so that's why it's hard to put him in the top 3.

[BigShotBob]

His consistency is very poor. It was basically win a ring or miss the playoffs for Mikey Mouse. He lacked GOAT level consistency so that's why it's hard to put him in the top 3.

Banned :roll:

[Baller789]

Nah, he has another dozen or so alts. So meh.

[RogueBorg]

Compared to rest of the greatest players who managed to make more finals appearances than he did. Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Russell got there more and dominated their post seasons. What was he doing the rest of his career?

For being the 2nd greatest player of all time, thats just very...... underwhelming.

6 rings in 15 years (.400) > 4 rings in 19 years (.210)

This will be the 16th season Lebron doesn't win it all. He's also on the verge of missing the playoffs for the 5th time unless AD turns it around for him. Longevity can also work against his legacy.

[RogueBorg]

He lost more than he won.

Which is better, not winning the chip 60% of the seasons played (Jordan) or not winning it 79% of the seasons played (Lebron)? If the Lakers don't win this year it goes to 80% failure rate for Lebron.

Who lost more than he won?

[Hey Yo]

6 rings in 15 years (.400) > 4 rings in 19 years (.210)

This will be the 16th season Lebron doesn't win it all. He's also on the verge of missing the playoffs for the 5th time unless AD turns it around for him. Longevity can also work against his legacy.

Playing with a chance of missing the playoffs >>>>> knowing you wouldn't make the playoffs and decide to quit the league again.

[Yeezy]

jordans goal was to pass magic in rings. he did so he retired

when will lebron pass either of them or kobe, duncan etc...


why is his goal "number of hands played" rather than "number of tournaments won"

https://media.tenor.com/J2_NBvIACM4AAAAd/phil-hellmuth.gif

[RogueBorg]

why is his goal "number of hands played" rather than "number of tournaments won"

https://media.tenor.com/J2_NBvIACM4AAAAd/phil-hellmuth.gif

Because Lebron followers think a successful season is losing in the playoffs while the rest of us know if you don't win it all it's a failed season. But they have to say that, they're trapped.

Buffalo Bills fans don't brag about losing 4 Super Bowls. Only LeLosers brag about losing 6 Finals.

[Hey Yo]

Here we go with "it better to lose before the Finals than lose in the Finals" bullshit.

Can't win a title if you're not playing in the Finals. That's why MJ quit again in the summer of 98. No chance at playing for a title in Chicago in 99

[Bacchus]

Here we go with "it better to lose before the Finals than lose in the Finals" bullshit.

Can't win a title if you're not playing in the Finals. That's why MJ quit again in the summer of 98. No chance at playing for a title in Chicago in 99

He was playing in a tougher conference. Lebron would only have made four finals appearances if he played in the West. That's why 6 teams from the West defeated him in the finals . They would of defeated him in the playoffs if Lebron played in the West

[RogueBorg]

Here we go with "it better to lose before the Finals than lose in the Finals" bullshit.



I know you Brontards are too dumb to understand this so let me explain it so even you can understand. The goal is to win it all. Can you wrap your little pea brain around that concept? Doubtful since your totally wasted Andrew Spicoli avatar would run intellectual circles around you. Here's the next part, Lebron has an 80% failure rate in achieving that goal. Now go ask your mom what all this means.

[RogueBorg]

Basically it was win a ring or miss the playoffs for Mike.

Lebron has literally missed the playoffs twice as many times as Jordan has.

[Hey Yo]

I know you Brontards are too dumb to understand this so let me explain it so even you can understand. The goal is to win it all. Can you wrap your little pea brain around that concept? Doubtful since your totally wasted Andrew Spicoli avatar would run intellectual circles around you. Here's the next part, Lebron has an 80% failure rate in achieving that goal. Now go ask your mom what all this means.

No shit the goal is to win it all. Can that happen if you're not playing in the Finals, chico?



Who's Andrew Spicoli??? :oldlol:

[Yeezy]

Here we go with "it better to lose before the Finals than lose in the Finals" bullshit.

Can't win a title if you're not playing in the Finals. That's why MJ quit again in the summer of 98. No chance at playing for a title in Chicago in 99

it's worse to lose period dumb*ss


don't give me this finals appearance shit either cause lebron beat 14 teams with 50+ wins.. Jordan beat 20 teams with 50+ wins

by that measurement if jordan played in lebrons era he would have went to 15 finals by that pace

[Spurs m8]

Lebron has literally missed the playoffs twice as many times as Jordan has.

Wow :roll:

[Hey Yo]

it's worse to lose period dumb*ss


don't give me this finals appearance shit either cause lebron beat 14 teams with 50+ wins.. Jordan beat 20 teams with 50+ wins

by that measurement if jordan played in lebrons era he would have went to 15 finals by that pace

He couldn't play more than 7 seasons without needing to quit the league. Your theory is extremely dumb

[3ba11]

Magic was gifted Kareem.. Kobe was gifted Shaq.. Shaq was gifted Wade... Duncan gifted Robinson... Bird gifted Parish and DJ... Lebron gifted Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD... Kawhi got Duncan...

aka everyone else was gifted ready-made HOF's, so it took less time to win, whereas only Jordan had to grow baby rookies that were single-digit bums into viable producers, which takes more time - yet despite this deficit, he ended up winning more rings as the best player than anyone in 3-pointer history, with the best championship frequency (6/15) and the least all-star help.