Playoff Peak 3, 5 and 10 Years : Jordan vs Lebron

[dankok8]

WARNING: Viewer discretion is advised.

https://i.imgur.com/bGArHei.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4kHqDil.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OWNOLYL.jpg


Source: Basketball-Reference

My Analysis:

It's notable that a peak 3-year and 5-year Jordan averages ~6 more points per game on comparable efficiency, more assists on fewer turnovers and equal offensive rebounds. The only thing Lebron has on him are 2-3 defensive rebounds which bring pretty little. Defensively, it's pretty even.

Over 10 years, Lebron kind of closes the gap and now has 1.5 assists more but Jordan still puts up 4.7 points more on slightly worse efficiency but also with fewer turnovers. Over 10 years, it's also worth noting what stats don't show but Jordan begins to pull away on the defensive end of the floor. From the 2014 playoffs onwards, Lebron is no longer an all-time defender consistently.

[Roundball_Rock]

Your numbers make sense. Just curious, though, what years did you use for each time frame?

[dankok8]

Your numbers make sense. Just curious, though, what years did you use for each time frame?

It's there on top of the tables.

[dankok8]

Do the tables not display for everyone else?

[Micku]

Do the tables not display for everyone else?

Yeah, sorry man. Can't see it.

But the stats sounds about right.

[Roundball_Rock]

Do the tables not display for everyone else?

Nope. All I see is "viewer discretion advised", "source" and then your analysis.

[MadDog]

Peak and prime Jordan>LeBron? Water is wet. Better boxscore numbers, impact stats, defense and championship play. The only reason LeBron stains shoehorn him into the debate is because of recency bias. That and the amount of teams LeBron has played for (the quintessential teamhoopper :oldlol:) By doing so, LeBron has done two things: 1. Rejuvenated his career and 2. freed up his individual game (upgrading/playing with more talent). Despite that, Jordan's shoes are STILL too big to fill.


Do the tables not display for everyone else?

Don't use imgur. Try another another host, like postimg.cc

[dankok8]

^ Thanks for the help!

Don't understand why Imgur doesn't work. Oh well here it is:

https://i.postimg.cc/6319ZCww/3-Year-Peak.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/d3bwHvLx/5-Year-Peak.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Y0GtzjqF/10-Year-Peak.jpg

[Gus Hemmingway]

Use 2016- 2020 LeBron dummy

[MadDog]

^ Thanks for the help!

Don't understand why Imgur doesn't work. Oh well here it is

Yup no problem. The forum is kind of dated so who knows. :confusedshrug: These stats are common knowledge to most fans "in the know" but actually SEEING the charts is like reading a good piece in the WSJ. Nice work. And more confirmation that LeBron isn't in Jordan's league.


Use 2016- 2020 LeBron dummy

Its already included. Learn how to read.

[1987_Lakers]

MJ was a better playoff performer in his 20's
LeBron was a better playoff performer in his 30's.

[SATAN]

1-9

[dankok8]

MJ was a better playoff performer in his 20's
LeBron was a better playoff performer in his 30's.

Yes but it doesn't tell the whole story. Lebron in his 30's just started playing in more and more offensively minded leagues. He also started giving way less effort on defense from the 2014 playoffs onwards. 2012 or 2013 Lebron is clearly his peak when it all came together in terms of still being athletic but having a developed post game, better jumper, having experience, leadership etc. He really peaked on both ends on the floor in those years IMO.

2020 Lebron put up similar stats to 2012 Lebron... or not similar but just as good and yet he's nowhere near the player. Anyone who carefully watches games will see that. It's not even just the diminished defensive effort but he also has less motor on offense. He seems gassed down the stretch of many games. And of course coasts in the regular season to save the energy for the playoffs to begin with.

Now of course the same is true for MJ. In his second threepeat, he didn't have the motor he had earlier. However, the late 90's were a tougher and more defensive era than the early 90's. MJ sacrificed some of his playmaking and defensive rebounding (I guess because of Rodman...) but maintained a high level of scoring and defense. Lebron's and Jordan's game aged differently. But IMO Jordan's game aged in a way that he was still the most effective player in scoring the ball and a fantastic man defender and those are the skills his team needed more than anything else. Those Bulls with Pippen, Kukoc and Harper didn't really need MJ to set up the offense. However a younger peak MJ definitely proved that he was elite in setting up the offense as well. The stats I posted show it clear as day.

[kawhileonard2]

MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

2012-14 is CLEARLY not LeBron's peak as a playoff performer :oldlol: It's 2016-18. Plus this is an ineffective way to determine it. Unlike Jordan who's best playoff runs all happened consecutively (88-93), LeBron's best are spread all around; '09, '12, '16-'18, '20. Compare those playoff runs and you'd have a much more accurate picture

[And1AllDay]

2012-14 is CLEARLY not LeBron's peak as a playoff performer :oldlol: It's 2016-18. Plus this is an ineffective way to determine it. Unlike Jordan who's best playoff runs all happened consecutively (88-93), LeBron's best are spread all around; '09, '12, '16-'18, '20. Compare those playoff runs and you'd have a much more accurate picture

we can just look to careers

bran got the finals #s, pers, pts, stls, asts, rebs, blks

kids are hangin on to anything they can :oldlol:

[MadDog]

2012-14 is CLEARLY not LeBron's peak as a playoff performer :oldlol: It's 2016-18. Plus this is an ineffective way to determine it. Unlike Jordan who's best playoff runs all happened consecutively (88-93), LeBron's best are spread all around; '09, '12, '16-'18, '20. Compare those playoff runs and you'd have a much more accurate picture

That's why OP provided a "10 year prime" chart. And it includes 2016-2018. Jordan still outscored LeBron by 4 points, outdefended him, and had a higher BPM (overall impact). LeBron fans simply want to cherry-pick the years he spent teamhopping, and joining more stars :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

That's why OP provided a "10 year prime" chart. And it includes 2016-2018. Jordan still outscored LeBron by 4 points, outdefended him, and had a higher BPM (overall impact). LeBron fans simply want to cherry-pick the years he spent teamhopping, and joining more stars :oldlol:

no i did the analysis your wrong ill post it

mjs ppgz is up becos he did the iverson 38 ppg and 1st rd loss

per game stats are a fraud for careers

[And1AllDay]

WRONG:

nice try not on my watch i did this already

no more anti 'longevity' for the mike fans lets just use the playoff stats for 10 best years of both. i took out mikes three 1st round whoopsies when daddy pippen and papa phil was not there to save him and boost him into 2nd round. this is comparing mikes 10 best years with brans. lets see if he wins anything more (mike doesnt)

stats for 10 best years

pts
bran, 5911
mike, 5632

ast
bran, 1510
mike, 959

reb
bran, 1611
mike, 1089

stls
bran, 362
mike, 352

blks
bran, 192
mike, 143

even if i erase mikes blemish whoopsies from his 1-9 and only take the 10 best playoff runs from both of them he still loses

its not longevity. its called goat consistency. its called advancing to finals gets you better stats.

10 finals > 6 finals

[MadDog]

10 finals > 6 finals

Not that your BS above had merit, but you lost all credibility here. You'd rather have 4 extra finals appearances over 2 rings. Yikes :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

Not that your BS above had merit, but you lost all credibility here. You'd rather have 4 extra finals appearances over 2 rings. Yikes :oldlol:

10 finals > 6 finals

yes or no

[Baller789]

10 finals > 6 finals

yes or no

What a dumb question. Also mentally dishonest.

[MadDog]

What a dumb question. Also mentally dishonest.

Damn, now LeBron fans want to pretend Jordan doesn't have more rings. :oldlol: These guys have completely lost it.

[Shooter]

WRONG:

nice try not on my watch i did this already

no more anti 'longevity' for the mike fans lets just use the playoff stats for 10 best years of both. i took out mikes three 1st round whoopsies when daddy pippen and papa phil was not there to save him and boost him into 2nd round. this is comparing mikes 10 best years with brans. lets see if he wins anything more (mike doesnt)

stats for 10 best years

pts
bran, 5911
mike, 5632

ast
bran, 1510
mike, 959

reb
bran, 1611
mike, 1089

stls
bran, 362
mike, 352

blks
bran, 192
mike, 143

even if i erase mikes blemish whoopsies from his 1-9 and only take the 10 best playoff runs from both of them he still loses

its not longevity. its called goat consistency. its called advancing to finals gets you better stats.

10 finals > 6 finals

Wrap. It. Up.

:hammertime:

[dankok8]

2012-14 is CLEARLY not LeBron's peak as a playoff performer :oldlol: It's 2016-18. Plus this is an ineffective way to determine it. Unlike Jordan who's best playoff runs all happened consecutively (88-93), LeBron's best are spread all around; '09, '12, '16-'18, '20. Compare those playoff runs and you'd have a much more accurate picture

You can't pick and choose the best years. A player's peak/prime is always consecutive.

[Shooter]

WRONG:

nice try not on my watch i did this already

no more anti 'longevity' for the mike fans lets just use the playoff stats for 10 best years of both. i took out mikes three 1st round whoopsies when daddy pippen and papa phil was not there to save him and boost him into 2nd round. this is comparing mikes 10 best years with brans. lets see if he wins anything more (mike doesnt)

stats for 10 best years

pts
bran, 5911
mike, 5632

ast
bran, 1510
mike, 959

reb
bran, 1611
mike, 1089

stls
bran, 362
mike, 352

blks
bran, 192
mike, 143

even if i erase mikes blemish whoopsies from his 1-9 and only take the 10 best playoff runs from both of them he still loses

its not longevity. its called goat consistency. its called advancing to finals gets you better stats.

10 finals > 6 finals

OP?

[SouBeachTalents]

You can't pick and choose the best years. A player's peak/prime is always consecutive.
Using '13-'15 as his "peak" playoff runs over '09 & '17-18 is absolutely ridiculous :oldlol: You did pick & choose, you just clearly chose the wrong ones

[Marchesk]

The longevity argument doesn't work because Mike retired twice out of a sense of having accomplished everything in modern basketball. He was out to top Magic and Bird.

[dankok8]

Using '13-'15 as his "peak" playoff runs over '09 & '17-18 is absolutely ridiculous :oldlol: You did pick & choose, you just clearly chose the wrong ones

I included '17 and '18 actually. I guess I could have picked '09 and '10 and excluded '19 and '20 for the 10-year peak but that didn't feel right to me because anything prior to 2012 was before Lebron had matured into a full version of himself. Regardless it wouldn't make much difference with the numbers.



The longevity argument doesn't work because Mike retired twice out of a sense of having accomplished everything in modern basketball. He was out to top Magic and Bird.


Exactly. It's a weak argument. Basically you're penalizing MJ for retiring because he felt no challenge. You can use longevity against a guy who had a very short prime like Bird but not for MJ who had 12-13 ridiculous years. You could easily argue that he in fact had more high level years than Lebron considering Lebron's limitations up to and including 2011. Nobody would even dare compare Lebron prior to 11-12 to any Bulls' version of Jordan. Longevity only matters if it helps you win more. So far Lebron has won less than Jordan despite playing more seasons.

[SouBeachTalents]

I included '17 and '18 actually. I guess I could have picked '09 and '10 and excluded '19 and '20 for the 10-year peak but that didn't feel right to me because anything prior to 2012 was before Lebron had matured into a full version of himself. Regardless it wouldn't make much difference with the numbers.
Nah, you still don't get it bro. You omitted those years twice in the 3 & 5 year peak comparisons, which is what I objected to and flatly believe the wrong playoff runs were chosen for those. Those would have a substantial difference in the numbers

[Shooter]

The longevity argument doesn't work because Mike retired twice out of a sense of having accomplished everything in modern basketball. He was out to top Magic and Bird.

Read

no more anti 'longevity' for the mike fans lets just use the playoff stats for 10 best years of both. i took out mikes three 1st round whoopsies when daddy pippen and papa phil was not there to save him and boost him into 2nd round. this is comparing mikes 10 best years with brans. lets see if he wins anything more (mike doesnt)

stats for 10 best years

pts
bran, 5911
mike, 5632

ast
bran, 1510
mike, 959

reb
bran, 1611
mike, 1089

stls
bran, 362
mike, 352

blks
bran, 192
mike, 143

even if i erase mikes blemish whoopsies from his 1-9 and only take the 10 best playoff runs from both of them he still loses

its not longevity. its called goat consistency. its called advancing to finals gets you better stats.

10 finals > 6 finals

[beau_boy04]

^ Thanks for the help!

Don't understand why Imgur doesn't work. Oh well here it is:

https://i.postimg.cc/6319ZCww/3-Year-Peak.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/d3bwHvLx/5-Year-Peak.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Y0GtzjqF/10-Year-Peak.jpg



there you go. clearly jordan has the best peak of all-time

[Baller789]

Read

no more anti 'longevity' for the mike fans lets just use the playoff stats for 10 best years of both. i took out mikes three 1st round whoopsies when daddy pippen and papa phil was not there to save him and boost him into 2nd round. this is comparing mikes 10 best years with brans. lets see if he wins anything more (mike doesnt)

stats for 10 best years

pts
bran, 5911
mike, 5632

ast
bran, 1510
mike, 959

reb
bran, 1611
mike, 1089

stls
bran, 362
mike, 352

blks
bran, 192
mike, 143

even if i erase mikes blemish whoopsies from his 1-9 and only take the 10 best playoff runs from both of them he still loses

its not longevity. its called goat consistency. its called advancing to finals gets you better stats.

10 finals > 6 finals

1-9. Like clockwork
Lolololol