a 2nd star is supposed to take attention away from the 1st star and...

[3ball]

prevent defenses from loading up on 1 guy.. that's a primary benefit of having a 2nd star.

Higher ppg and efficiency from a 2nd option takes more attention away from the 1st option, especially in a playoff series.

This is why ppg capability matters tremendously for 1st and 2nd options, because an option with spotty scoring isn't fulfilling his role of attracting defensive attention and making it easier on his running mate.

Obviously, elite 1st options with 25-30 ppg capability (Wade, AD, Kyrie, Bosh, Love) take more attention away from Lebron than a spotty scorer like Pippen did for Jordan.

Here's Kenny Smith saying that only MJ never had a teammate that commanded a double.. defenses had tunnel vision on Jordan his whole career:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m55s

[3ball]

^^^ that's why lebron's stats are inferior - he always had an elite-scoring sidekick to take attention away and make his stats easier..

Despite this sidekick advantage and scoring era, lebron's best playoff stats (16-20') have lower BPM, VORP, WS/48, and PPG than 90-93' Jordan, while winning 2 shared load rings (his sidekick averaged equal or more ppg), versus Jordan's 3 carry-jobs (10-20 more than Pippen in every Finals)

One last thing - the Spurs figured out that you actually CAN load up on 1 guy if the stars aren't shooters.. so coming off Lebron to help on Wade's drive leaves lebron open as a spot-up shooter (his weakness), and vice versa coming off Wade to help on lebron.. if one of them was an elite shooter like Kyrie or Jordan, the Spurs couldn't have succeeded with this strategy.. here's SB Nation detailing how the Spurs exploited the weak-shooting, dribble-heavy skillsets of wade/lebron:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486831-Jordan-floated-and-hung-in-the-air-Lebron-drops-like-a-rock&p=14172929&viewfull=1#post14172929

[AirBonner]

1-9

[Gus Hemmingway]

^^^ that's why lebron's stats are inferior - he always had an elite-scoring sidekick to take attention away and make his stats easier..

Despite this sidekick advantage and scoring era, lebron's best playoff stats (16-20') have lower BPM, VORP, WS/48, and PPG than 90-93' Jordan, while winning 2 shared load rings (his sidekick averaged equal or more ppg), versus Jordan's 3 carry-jobs (10-20 more than Pippen in every Finals)

One last thing - the Spurs figured out that you actually CAN load up on 1 guy if the stars aren't shooters.. so coming off Lebron to help on Wade's drive leaves lebron open as a spot-up shooter (his weakness), and vice versa coming off Wade to help on lebron.. if one of them was an elite shooter like Kyrie or Jordan, the Spurs couldn't have succeeded with this strategy.

When did Jordan win with a 15.9ppg or worse 2nd option for an entire playoff run? (2013 playoff Wade)

[TheCorporation]

OP off his rocker
https://i.postimg.cc/1RJhTjWT/49072b9bfbd69aceb5df99f94f79c2c9.gif

[3ball]

When did Jordan win with a 15.9ppg or worse 2nd option for an entire playoff run? (2013 playoff Wade)

Lebron's big 3 was beating 1-star trash teams in the East and Wade showed up when needed against the West

Remember, only MJ beat Finals teams or top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams

[TheCorporation]

When did Jordan win with a 15.9ppg or worse 2nd option for an entire playoff run? (2013 playoff Wade)

https://i.postimg.cc/sx3wSprz/tenor.gif


/thread

[3ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/sx3wSprz/tenor.gif


/thread

Lebron's big 3 was beating 1-star trash teams in the East and Wade showed up when needed against the West

Remember, only MJ beat Finals teams or top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams

[TheCorporation]

Lebron's big 3 was beating 1-star trash teams in the East and Wade showed up when needed against the West

Remember, only MJ beat Finals teams or top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams

Are you telling me for all the crying you do about Pippen's ppgz that Wade still had a lower playoff run ppgz in 2013?

That Pippen's lowest ever PPG for a Finals run was still higher than Wade's 2013 run?

Are you ****ING kidding me?

You're done

[3ball]

When did Jordan win with a 15.9ppg or worse 2nd option for an entire playoff run? (2013 playoff Wade)




When adjusted for pace, 13' Wade scored more than 96' and 98' pippen

and everyone beats weak teams like the garbage East - only carry-jobs against good teams matter and Wade was great when needed in the Finals, while Pippen averaged 15/7/5 on 38% in the 96' and 98' Finals, lol

Remember, only MJ beat Finals teams or top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams

[AirBonner]

Pippen was a poor man’s Toni Kukoc

[And1AllDay]

Pippen was a poor man’s Toni Kukoc

and still outscored all the opponents #2 options = weak azz era :oldlol:

[3ball]

and still outscored all the opponents #2 options = weak azz era :oldlol:

He was outscored in nearly half the playoff series of his career, including 30% of series from 89-98' when the bulls were contenders..

furthermore, he was matched with better efficiency in many more series like the 98' ECF (Smits averaged 16 on 55% versus 16 on 39% for pippen)

Finally, you're praising pippen for outscoring the opposing #2, but 11' Wade and 20' AD led the entire Playoffs in PPG, while Kyrie tied lebron in 16'

[SouBeachTalents]

A 2nd hobby is supposed to take attention away from the 1st hobby and prevent someone from making 1000 threads about 1 guy, that's the primary benefit of having a 2nd hobby

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Scottie Pippen.

[light]

Kenny doesn't know what he's talking about because Scottie was double teamed regularly.

Aside from Scottie, the way the Bulls spaced the floor for MJ was the same way teams do it today - they surrounded him with shooting. That's what Paxson, Armstrong, Hodges and Kerr were for.

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-2.png https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-3.png

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-1.png

And a snippet from the Chicago Tribune in 1993:

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/no-pip-no-chip.png

By 1993 Pippen was considered a top 5 player in the world and perhaps the 2nd best player in the NBA, so of course he saw his share of double teams.

[3ball]

Kenny doesn't know what he's talking about because Scottie was double teamed regularly.

Aside from Scottie, the way the Bulls spaced the floor for MJ was the same way teams do it today - they surrounded him with shooting. That's what Paxson, Armstrong, Hodges and Kerr were for.

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-2.png https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-3.png

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-1.png

And a snippet from the Chicago Tribune in 1993:

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/no-pip-no-chip.png

By 1993 Pippen was considered a top 5 player in the world and perhaps the 2nd best player in the NBA, so of course he saw his share of double teams.

Steve Kerr has plenty of pics with 2 defenders on him... Anyone that ever played a pickup game had times where they were defended by 2 guys.. it's called basketball and many doubles occur randomly and seamlessly as the action is going on..

But pippen was never part of a gameplan to double him because he rarely iso'd - he wasn't that kind of player.... off-the-dribble or otherwise and he was literally bad at iso pull-ups... so when an iso was needed, MJ closed the possession.. period..

This is common knowledge and obvious historical record - a cursory glance at an old game shows pippen in the role player scoring options of the triangle that everyone has, not the closer spot (only MJ).

The only time pippen was doubled other than random occurances or switches was when he had a mouse-in-the-house (posting a little guy).

Ultimately, pippen's weakness as an iso player and shooter culminate in lower ppg capability than elite 1st options.. These elite 1st options, aka guys that can average 25-30 like Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, and AD take more attention away than a spotty scorer like Pippen.. so lebron's stats are inflated compared to MJ because his sidekicks took more attention away (equal-scoring loads), while MJ had carry-jobs (he averaged 10-30 more than pippen in every series).

[light]

Steve Kerr has plenty of pics with 2 defenders on him... Anyone that ever played a pickup game had times where they were defended by 2 guys.. it's called basketball and many doubles occur randomly and seamlessly as the action is going on..

But pippen was never part of a gameplan to double him because he rarely iso'd - he wasn't that kind of player.... off-the-dribble or otherwise and he was literally bad at iso pull-ups... so when an iso was needed, MJ closed the possession.. period..

This is common knowledge and obvious historical record - a cursory glance at an old game shows pippen in the role player scoring options of the triangle that everyone has, not the closer spot (only MJ).

The only time pippen was doubled other than random occurances or switches was when he had a mouse-in-the-house (posting a little guy).

Ultimately, pippen's weakness as an iso player and shooter culminate in lower ppg capability than elite 1st options.. These elite 1st options, aka guys that can average 25-30 like Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, and AD take more attention away than a spotty scorer like Pippen.. so lebron's stats are inflated compared to MJ because his sidekicks took more attention away (equal-scoring loads), while MJ had carry-jobs (he averaged 10-30 more than pippen in every series).

lol nope

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-3.png

Pippen > Shaq

You are forgetting that in the mid 90's Pippen was a dominant player too and he was actually considered the best player in the game. He could score 40 on any given night and he was treated like it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

lol nope

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-3.png

Pippen > Shaq

You are forgetting that in the mid 90's Pippen was a dominant player too and he was actually considered the best player in the game. He could score 40 on any given night and he was treated like it.

"Pippen knows how to win"

:applause:

[Gray GOAT]

Pippen, Scottie Maurice.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

This is common knowledge and obvious historical record - a cursory glance at an old game shows pippen in the role player scoring options of the triangle that everyone has, not the closer spot (only MJ).


Maybe you should stop taking cursory glances and study the game in depth -- as I have. Scottie Pippen was a beast.

[8Ball]

lol nope

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-3.png

Pippen > Shaq

You are forgetting that in the mid 90's Pippen was a dominant player too and he was actually considered the best player in the game. He could score 40 on any given night and he was treated like it.

So 3ball hasn't even watched the 90s games besides box scores?

Who is surprised? :cheers:

[8Ball]

Kenny doesn't know what he's talking about because Scottie was double teamed regularly.

Aside from Scottie, the way the Bulls spaced the floor for MJ was the same way teams do it today - they surrounded him with shooting. That's what Paxson, Armstrong, Hodges and Kerr were for.

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-2.png https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-3.png

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/dbl-1.png

And a snippet from the Chicago Tribune in 1993:

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/no-pip-no-chip.png

By 1993 Pippen was considered a top 5 player in the world and perhaps the 2nd best player in the NBA, so of course he saw his share of double teams.

This was all common knowledge for those that followed the 90s.

[Manny98]

Pippen lead the Bulls in 4/5 categories

If that's not taking off the load then I don't know what is:oldlol:

[3ball]

Maybe you should stop taking cursory glances and study the game in depth -- as I have. Scottie Pippen was a beast.

16/6/5 on bad efficiency isn't a "beast"

So you're lying

No one thought pippen was good in the 90's.. you can post the occasional article saying pippen was good, but those are the exceptions to the general consensus..

Everyone saw pippen mostly suck and everyone saw Jordan carry the bulls every night.. down the stretch of every game, it was all Jordan.. pippen literally didn't exist.. his all-nba accolades were a habit by the media like kobe's all-defense - anyone associated with mj was inflated