Phil has 0 ring w/out MJ or his clone becuse triangle need goat bailout artist to win

[3ball]

the triangle put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 20% of possessions - so the offense was nothing for 50 years until MJ got a hold of it, or his clone (Kobe) - goat bailout artists are the key that unlock the triangle's greatness

So Phil and the triangle were nothing for 50 years until they met the goat bailout artists, then they won 11 rings in 18 years..

MJ was the goat candidate when they won in 90-91', while Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach.. so MJ made Phil

[Gus Hemmingway]

MJ went 1-9 without Phil

[Phoenix]

1 and 9

[sdot_thadon]

the triangle put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 20% of possessions - so it was nothing offense for 50 years until MJ got a hold of it, or his clone (Kobe) - Phil and the triangle never won anything without the goat bailout artists (MJ or his clone)

All I know is I'd feel like a queen sized bitch if I had to constantly abandon threads after getting my shit pushed in.

[AirBonner]

Phil has 2 championships without MJ and Kobe. WTF is op talking about

[3ball]

All I know is I'd feel like a queen sized bitch if I had to constantly abandon threads after getting my shit pushed in.

No I just realized that this was a good point that fans constantly make about MJ but it's never been put into a thread

Everyone knows the triangle needs a goat bailout artist... but it's never really been stated that therefore the triangle is nothing without a Kobe/MJ level bailout artist (goat 1-on-1 player and jumpshooter).. the triangle was nothing before them, or after

Basically, how many rings for Phil and the triangle without MJ or his clone Kobe?.. 0 without.. 11 with... :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

no i just realized that this was a good point that fans constantly make about mj but it's never been put into a thread

everyone knows the triangle needs a goat bailout artist... But it's never really been stated that therefore the triangle is nothing without a kobe/mj level bailout artist (goat 1-on-1 player and jumpshooter).. The triangle was nothing before them, or after

basically, how many rings for Phil and the triangle without mj or his clone kobe?.. 0 without.. 11 with... :confusedshrug:





anyone????

[3ball]

All I know is I'd feel like a queen sized bitch if I had to constantly abandon threads after getting my shit pushed in.

You're a bitch for pretending I abandoned a thread to avoid addressing the point being made

The height of bitchmadeness

[tpols]

I'm curious as to what your feelings are, on what the great Lebron James would do in the triangle.

[AirBonner]

how many chips does MJ AND Kobe have without Phil?

[light]

the triangle put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 20% of possessions - so the offense was nothing for 50 years until MJ got a hold of it, or his clone (Kobe) - goat bailout artists are the key that unlock the triangle's greatness

So Phil and the triangle were nothing for 50 years until they met the goat bailout artists, then they won 11 rings in 18 years..

MJ was the goat candidate when they won in 90-91', while Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach.. so MJ made Phil

Phil has 5 rings without MJ.

Kobe wasn't a bailout artist, he was a brick artist.

[3ball]

I'm curious as to what your feelings are, on what the great Lebron James would do in the triangle.


It's hard to imagine Lebron with the shooting touch and assisted skillset/footwork required to score in the spots the triangle puts him in:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2019/KDrt5G.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-19-2020/asU2dk.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-08-2019/ObnNU4.gif


So he would end Phil's career just like he did Blatt.. We would never have heard of Phil.. Phil would've been somewhere practicing Buddhism

[AirBonner]

how many chips does MJ AND Kobe have without Phil?

Anyone?

[3ball]

Phil has 5 rings without MJ.

Kobe wasn't a bailout artist, he was a brick artist.

You don't seem to understand that the MJ/Kobe footwork was developed by MJ/Kobe specifically to score within the triangle

it's no coincidence that the triangle won 11 rings with the only guys that developed the goat skill required to score a lot within it

Phil won 11 rings with the same format of Kobe in the MJ closer/bailout role

Kobe/Jordan's fadeaway and post/triple-threat footwork is the only way to score a lot within the triangle..

[AirBonner]

Steve Kerr and Fisher were bailout players

[3ball]

I'm curious as to what your feelings are, on what the great Lebron James would do in the triangle.


Here's Lebron in a common spot in the triangle:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-18-2019/tBDdtZ.gif


^^^ he blows it because he lacks the jumpshooting skill required:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-18-2019/NKp--8.gif


Or the triple-threat offensive skill and mindset


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/4zBlRb.gif..

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/V2-pAN.gif.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-08-2015/nclHcJ.gif

[Vino24]

Why couldn't MJ win without a HOF coach? meanwhile LeBron has two chips without a HOF coach

[HBK_Kliq_2]

And they have zero rings without him.

I don't understand why they can't at least lead top 5 offenses without Phil?

Bulls were 12th offense in 1989 without Phil and 5th offense in 1990 with Phil.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Why couldn't MJ win without a HOF coach? meanwhile LeBron has two chips without a HOF coach

Lue will be a HOF coach after kawhi is done with him.

[Phoenix]

Lue will be a HOF coach after kawhi is done with him.

Unless 7'1 Brian Windhorst is on the other side of the floor.

[3ball]

And they have zero rings without him.

I don't understand why they can't at least lead top 5 offenses without Phil?

Bulls were 12th offense in 1989 without Phil and 5th offense in 1990 with Phil.

Pippen continued his improvement under MJ in 1990, just like he did in 89'.. that's why the offense improved in 90'.. grant and bj also continued their improvement.. MJ was growing these pups every year by not turning them into spot-up shooters via ball-dominance

[Mr. Woke]

3ball still coping lol!

What a sad human being.

[Round Mound]

Pippen sucked, Grant sucked, Phil sucked...every player that played with Jordan sucks...He won by himself. :facepalm: :confusedshrug: :no:

[Shooter]

how many chips does MJ AND Kobe have without Phil?

Anyone?

[Kblaze8855]

Phil coached one season without Jordan or Kobe. They lost. He lost 8 years with one or the other. Bit hard to extrapolate.....

[3ball]

Phil coached one season without Jordan or Kobe. They lost. He lost 8 years with one or the other. Bit hard to extrapolate.....

The triangle won nothing for 50 years and then 11 in 18 years with MJ or Kobe (the goat bailout artists needed for the triangle to excel - the only 2 guys that mastered the triangle footwork and skills)

[Kblaze8855]

So who are you even saying failed with it?

Off the top of my head....the Rockets when they were in San Diego with young Elvin Hayes, Kevin Love in Minnesota when Rambis tried it there, and the modified version the Knicks played with aging Melo for a little while.


Who else we talking about?

[3ball]

So who are you even saying failed with it?

Off the top of my head....the Rockets when they were in San Diego with young Elvin Hayes, Kevin Love in Minnesota when Rambis tried it there, and the modified version the Knicks played with aging Melo for a little while.


Who else we talking about?

^^^ That's 3 off the top of your head and the offense has been around since the 50's

Wilt was running the triangle when he led the league in assists... So frieking Wilt couldn't even win with it...

And we know why - the triangle requires a goat bailout artist to be a great offense, otherwise it's pedestrian and Wilt can't win with it

So why not address the substance?.. you saw the triangle - Kobe and MJ were constantly having to bail it out and it was their assigned role in that offense.. everyone else had a role player, "equal-opportunity" role , while Kobe/MJ were the designated closers...

And again, they created footwork that was optimal for the triangle, aka goat skill... A player can only average 30 in the triangle by employing the MJ/Kobe footwork.. :confusedshrug:.. ball-dominance turns the offense into something OTHER than the triangle, so the MJ/Kobe footwork is required

[Kblaze8855]

Oh if you going back to Alex Hannum and Bill Sharman....both of them actually did win rings with it if you wanna call the limited versions they did the same thing. Sharman was with Tex in college and was the coach of the 72 Lakers.

As of 96 all 3 of the best records ever were held by teams coached by Tex disciples and all 3 won the title. Wilts 76ers and Lakers then the Bulls.

[3ball]

Oh if you going back to Alex Hannum and Bill Sharman....both of them actually did win rings with it if you wanna call the limited versions they did the same thing. Sharman was with Tex in college and was the coach of the 72 Lakers.

As of 96 all 3 of the best records ever were held by teams coached by Tex disciples and all 3 won the title. Wilts 76ers and Lakers then the Bulls.

The triangle didn't win anything on the professional level before MJ.. that's a well-known fact and easily provable

It did win in college I believe

[Kblaze8855]

Far as the substance I don’t even know what the point is. Teams with Wilt and 3 hall of famers, Wilt and West, Jordan and Pippen, and Shaq and Kobe won but teams with Elvin Hayes and Rudy T, Kevin Love and....whoever..(Kevin Martin maybe?), and Melo and rookie KP didn’t.

Is that supposed to tell us something about the triangle in general?

[Kblaze8855]

The triangle didn't win anything on the professional level before MJ.. that's a well-known fact and easily provable

It did win in college I believe

You’re the one who brought up the Alex Hannum 76ers. They won. What are we doing right now?

[Kblaze8855]

Bill Sharman talking about it in an article about him, Tex, and Hannum coming up in the game together and Tex taking the triangle from their days together in college:


Hannum also used it with the 76ers, who won an NBA record 68 games in 1967. Sharman’s Lakers then won 69 five years later, using some triangle, a record that stood until the Bulls won 72 in 1996.
“The funny thing was, we didn’t win with it,” says Sharman, remembering their days at USC. “We were 10-14.
“Then Hannum plays it with the 76ers and they win 68 games. Then we used it a little bit with the Lakers and we win 69. Then Tex runs it with the Bulls and they win 72.”
Of course, the 76ers had Wilt Chamberlain, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, Luke Jackson and Hal Greer. The Lakers had Wilt, Jerry West and Gail Goodrich. The Bulls, who eclipsed both, had Michael Jordan, leading some skeptics to describe the triangle as “three ways to get the ball to Jordan.”

[3ball]

Bill Sharman talking about it in an article about him, Tex, and Hannum coming up in the game together and Tex taking the triangle from their days together in college:


Like you stated, Sharman wasn't running the full triangle because it didn't arrive in the NBA until 1971:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-04-2020/_FHBWe.gif



Again, the offense was literally nothing... A complete afterthought until MJ made it famous - it was nothing without the goat bailout artists required for it to be great..

And it's probably true that ANY offense can be great with goat bailout artists to fix botched possessions

[Kblaze8855]

I’m just wondering why you bring up Wilt using it in Philly where he won and then tell me it didn’t exist till years later. I forgot all about Hannum. You pointed out...correctly...they used it. So again...what are we doing right now? I’m saying you were right to begin with. I forgot the 76ers.

[3ball]

I’m just wondering why you bring up Wilt using it in Philly where he won and then tell me it didn’t exist till years later. I forgot all about Hannum. You pointed out...correctly...they used it. So again...what are we doing right now? I’m saying you were right to begin with. I forgot the 76ers.

Apparently, Sharman and Hannum used a couple concepts of the triangle, but not the triangle

nowhere does it say the 68' Sixers won with the triangle.. and it would be common knowledge of they did..

The first time the triangle won was in 1991, or 20 years after Tex Winter introduced it to the league - every historical record says this

The only reason I said wilt used it was because they did use some of the triangle concepts - I didn't think you would challenge the idea that MJ/Kobe were the first to win with it - they obviously were, but the facts always prove lebron isn't anywhere near goat, so these standard facts get refuted lol

[Kblaze8855]

I have no idea why you think who won with the triangle since the 50s has anything to do with Lebron vs Jordan or anyone else...and I don’t much care. You’ll find a way to tie everything to Lebron somehow and there isn’t much to get from that at this point.

And no it would not be common knowledge what offense some team in the 60s won with. Fans today don’t even know what offense their team is running. ISH is a bunch of kids and early 20s types who think “Bron/Kawhi/Curry ball” is a system.

Espn had to explain to most fans what a box and 1 zone was and an uncomfortable number of people here didn’t know either. Doesn’t feel like most even played high school ball or watched much college.

None of this shit is common knowledge even here much less to normal sports fans. I’ve actually red Tex Winters book and even I forgot about Hannum. A lot of this is just trivia.

[3ball]

I have no idea why you think who won with the triangle since the 50s has anything to do with Lebron vs Jordan or anyone else



By saying that Phil and the triangle never won without MJ or his clone (the bailout artists required), it shows that MJ made Phil, not vice versa

Phil was very lucky that MJ agreed to tailor his game to the triangle.. and we were lucky as fans - we got to see goat footwork and skill





And no it would not be common knowledge what offense some team in the 60s won with.



It would be common knowledge

everyone would know the 68' Sixers and 91' Bulls won with the triangle, but 30 years later people only think MJ won with it (and Kobe)

Again, all the historical accounts show that MJ was the first to win with it... But tbh, if a goat scorer like wilt also won with it, that would actually make my point

[3ball]

No one knows that the 68' Sixers won with the triangle because they didn't, and nowhere does it say they did

Otoh, everyone knows the 91' bulls won with the triangle because they obviously did, and it says so everywhere

Only Tex Winters and a small handful of coaches knew what the triangle was until MJ put it on the map for the mainstream - the offense won 11 rings only because 2 players mastered the footwork the offense requires for maximum production (MJ/Kobe)

They were the goat bailout artists the offense requires to be a good offense.. these is the historical record

[sdot_thadon]

No one knows that the 68' Sixers won with the triangle because they didn't, and nowhere does it say they did

Otoh, everyone knows the 91' bulls won with the triangle because they obviously did, and it says so everywhere

Only Tex Winters and a small handful of coaches knew what the triangle was until MJ put it on the map for the mainstream - the offense won 11 rings only because 2 players mastered the footwork the offense requires for maximum production (MJ/Kobe)

They were the goat bailout artists the offense requires to be a good offense.. these is the historical record

What I learned from this thread is it should have been titled:

Phil has 0 rings w/out a good big man because the triangle needs a strong frontcourt to win.

Wilt + triangle = 2 chips

Grant/ pippen frontcourt + triangle = 3peat

No grant, Mj/Scottie + triangle = 2nd round loss

Rodman/ Pippen frontcourt + triangle = 3peat

Shaq frontcourt + triangle = 3peat

Kwame frontcourt + triangle = yikes

Gasol/Odom frontcourt + triangle = back to back.

Interesting.....

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pippen continued his improvement under MJ in 1990, just like he did in 89'.. that's why the offense improved in 90'.. grant and bj also continued their improvement.. MJ was growing these pups every year by not turning them into spot-up shooters via ball-dominance

Jordan should be able to anchor elite offenses under any supporting cast by your standards, the system doesn't matter right?

Look at a guy like James Harden. In 2017, he led a top 2 offense and his next best player was Eric Gordon averaging 16PPG on 40% but harden still can carry scrubs to elite offenses in reg season, how come Jordan can't do that unless he has the triangle?

[3ball]

What I learned from this thread is it should have been titled:

Phil has 0 rings w/out a good big man because the triangle needs a strong frontcourt to win.

Wilt + triangle = 2 chips

Grant/ pippen frontcourt + triangle = 3peat

No grant, Mj/Scottie + triangle = 2nd round loss

Rodman/ Pippen frontcourt + triangle = 3peat

Shaq frontcourt + triangle = 3peat

Kwame frontcourt + triangle = yikes

Gasol/Odom frontcourt + triangle = back to back.

Interesting.....

Lol add up the PPG of bulls frontline and it's probably last in the league every year except maybe 92'

If I'm wrong, it's only a small exaggeration

Corzine was the best shot-blocking center at 0.8, while lebron had Mosgov (1.5) and Zydrunas 2.5)....

and Cartwright's best year was 89' with 12/7 and 0.5 blocks... Compare to shaq's 12/7 and 1.5 blocks in 10'... so Lebron's garbage teammates destroy jordan's

[Vino24]

LeBron anchored an elite offense with boobie Gibson as a 2nd option

[3ball]

LeBron anchored an elite offense with boobie Gibson as a 2nd option

2007... #18 offense
2008... #20 offense

2009..... #4 offense*


* Mo Williams was the only addition (pippen-level offense but top 3 shooter in league)

[light]

The reality - as Tex Winter would've told you - is that they won in spite of Jordan ball stopping.

Winter would've told you that the brilliance of the triangle was most obvious when they replaced Jordan with Pete Myers and remained title contenders.

[3ball]

The reality - as Tex Winter would've told you - is that they won in spite of Jordan ball stopping.

Winter would've told you that the brilliance of the triangle was most obvious when they replaced Jordan with Pete Myers and remained title contenders.

Yes the triangle was a 2nd Round offense until MJ/Kobe mastered the footwork the offense requires for maximum production.. then it won 11 rings..

so 2nd round offense without the goat bailout artists the offense requires, and 11 rings with those artists (MJ/Kobe)

[Vino24]

Yes the triangle was a 2nd Round offense until MJ/Kobe mastered the footwork the offense requires for maximum production.. then it won 11 rings..

so 2nd round offense without the goat bailout artists the offense requires, and 11 rings with those artists (MJ/Kobe)

LeBron is a GOAT bailout artist while not being system dependent

[3ball]

LeBron is a GOAT bailout artist while not being system dependent

Lebron never had a #1 offense, let alone a goat offense, so he needs a system but lacks the skill to produce in one.

And Lebron isn't a bailout artist on possessions because he doesn't take contested jumpers/bailouts - he defers them to teammates by kicking the ball to them with defenders closing out super-hard.. it's the dumbest strategy ever and literally never works.. his teammates brick and get blamed

Lebron must get layups to bailout his team on possessions, or a sleepy defense to allow his patented flat-foot jumper that must be wide open to attempt.. lol.. he's unskilled compared to MJ/Kobe

[dankok8]

I always find it hilarious how for some Lebron stans a 55-win season with a 2nd round exit is comparable to a 57-win season with a championship. By their shallow logic the Mavs in 2014 must have been closer to winning the title than the Heat because they took the Spurs to 7 games. This board has become full of trolls. I don't care if who you consider GOAT but actually try to present some meaningful arguments.

[HoopsNY]

I always find it hilarious how for some Lebron stans a 55-win season with a 2nd round exit is comparable to a 57-win season with a championship. By their shallow logic the Mavs in 2014 must have been closer to winning the title than the Heat because they took the Spurs to 7 games. This board has become full of trolls. I don't care if who you consider GOAT but actually try to present some meaningful arguments.

Not to mention completely ignoring that Chicago faced a depleted Cleveland team in the 1st round that lost 3 of their starters before the playoffs had even started. If Indiana faces them in the 1st round as opposed to Cleveland, I doubt Chicago would have gotten past the 1st round. If Cleveland had a healthy team, they may not have won for sure, but the series would have been much closer than a sweep and possibly in Cleveland's favor.

[FireDavidKahn]

In 5 seasons without Pippen, MJ NEVER HAD A WINNING SEASON.

Forget No Pip No Chip
Forget 1-9

Remember no winning record without Pippen.

[And1AllDay]

In 5 seasons without Pippen, MJ NEVER HAD A WINNING SEASON.

Forget No Pip No Chip
Forget 1-9

Remember no winning record without Pippen.

[HoopsNY]

In 5 seasons without Pippen, MJ NEVER HAD A WINNING SEASON.

Forget No Pip No Chip
Forget 1-9

Remember no winning record without Pippen.

Yea because he didn't go 26-12 (56 team win pace) without Pippen in 1998. :lol

[3ball]

Yea because he didn't go 26-12 (56 team win pace) without Pippen in 1998. :lol

He also won 50 games and the 3 seed with rookie pippen off the bench at 8 ppg

Then MJ almost made the Finals in 89' with pippen at 14/6/3 and 10/6/3 in the ECF

So just having pippen means nothing if pippen is getting 8 ppg or playing at replacement level

[Smoke117]

Yeah, that 2010 game 7 was a real bail out by Kobe, huh? Kobe was more likely you to shoot you out of close games than he was to win them with his "I'm going to take this fade away vs 3 defenders while my teammates stand around wide open" nonsense. Defenses were generally tougher in Kobe's era than Jordan's till the later years, though.

[Axe]

He also won 50 games and the 3 seed with rookie pippen off the bench at 8 ppg

Then MJ almost made the Finals in 89' with pippen at 14/6/3 and 10/6/3 in the ECF

So just having pippen means nothing if pippen is getting 8 ppg or playing at replacement level
But saying dc is a better coach than pj is a bit funny, don't you think?

[3ball]

But saying dc is a better coach than pj is a bit funny, don't you think?

Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals.. Collins nearly beat the Pistons despite 10 on 40% from Pippen, so only a better sidekick was needed..

The Bulls would've beaten the Pistons in 89' with anyone OTHER than pippen.. Jordan would've 3-peated with worthy from 88-90'

[Vino24]

Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals.. Collins nearly beat the Pistons despite 10 on 40% from Pippen, so only a better sidekick was needed..

The Bulls would've beaten the Pistons in 89' with anyone OTHER than pippen.. Jordan would've 3-peated with worthy from 88-90'
No Phil no chip

[3ball]

No Phil no chip

Phil has zero rings without MJ or his clone

the triangle put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 20% of possessions - so the offense was nothing for 50 years until MJ got a hold of it, or his clone (Kobe) - goat bailout artists are the key that unlock the triangle's greatness

And mj/kobe developed footwork that was optimal for the triangle... The triangle only worked with footwork that maximized production within the triangle - that's the MJ/Kobe footwork, so the triangle only won with them

[Axe]

Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals.. Collins nearly beat the Pistons despite 10 on 40% from Pippen, so only a better sidekick was needed..

The Bulls would've beaten the Pistons in 89' with anyone OTHER than pippen.. Jordan would've 3-peated with worthy from 88-90'
How many times did he lead the wizards to postseason appearances during his tenure with them?

[And1AllDay]

How many times did he lead the wizards to postseason appearances during his tenure with them?

https://media.giphy.com/media/U3ssUcE6ladZisHmNH/giphy.gif

[King Baron]

I usually enjoy reading your defense of Jordan as the GOAT but this time it's too much. Give Phil credit for being the GOAT coach too.

[Axe]

I usually enjoy reading your defense of Jordan as the GOAT but this time it's too much. Give Phil credit for being the GOAT coach too.
:cheers:

[Vino24]

Op loves getting beaten to a pulp in every thread he makes

[Kiddlovesnets]

This is such a moronic title. Kobe is nowhere close to a clone of MJ, more like a plagiarized copy that only possess 1/2 of MJ’s qualities. Stop relating Kobe with MJ, the latter is at least 2 tiers above.

Fun fact, Phil Jackson never lost in the finals, never blew a 3–1 lead and never got swept in the playoffs until Kobe became ‘the man’, this should tell enough.

[Axe]

This is such a moronic title. Kobe is nowhere close to a clone of MJ, more like a plagiarized copy that only possess 1/2 of MJ’s qualities. Stop relating Kobe with MJ, the latter is at least 2 tiers above.

Fun fact, Phil Jackson never lost in the finals, never blew a 3–1 lead and never got swept in the playoffs until Kobe became ‘the man’, this should tell enough.
Fyi phil has two losses in the finals, in 2004 and 2008.

Edit: oh i see it was until he coached kobe but still.

[AintNoSunshine]

All everyone needs to remember is Phil has 5 rings without MJ, but MJ struggles to get out of the first round without Phil, the first round that GOAT James has never once lost.:lol

[3ball]

All everyone needs to remember is Phil has 5 rings without MJ, but MJ struggles to get out of the first round without Phil, the first round that GOAT James has never once lost.:lol

No phil won nothing without MJ or Kobe (the goat bailout artists needed to turn the triangle from a 2nd round offense for 50 years, into goat offense and 11 rings in 18 years

[Axe]

No phil won nothing without MJ or Kobe (the goat bailout artists needed to turn the triangle from a 2nd round offense for 50 years, into goat offense and 11 rings in 18 years
Dumb dumb, yet he still has better accolades than your lover doug collins.