LeBron James' Crunch-time Stats Are Kinda Terrible

[dankok8]

Crunch time is defined by NBA.com as the last 5 minutes of a close game where the score difference is within 5 points.

All this info is available at NBA.com/stats. I simply got it for all playoff and finals runs, aggregated it and normalized it per 48 minutes.

Per 48 - Total Playoffs

42.5 pts, 10.7 reb, 7.9 ass, 1.8 stl, 1.8 blk on 40.7 %FG/35.3 %3P/76.0 %FT with 4.6 tov; 54.5 %TS

Per 48 - Finals Only

36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS

For reference, most good clutch players average 50+ pts per 48 minutes and obviously on much better shooting efficiency. Lebron's Finals percentages are laughably bad and he's generally scared to put up shots too. Thus the very low volume of points.

Players like Kobe, Dirk, Curry have way better crunch time stats. Jordan blows him out of the water of course. One of all-time best ISH posters PHILA compiled MJ's crunch-time stats for his entire playoffs career here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?322375-Michael-Jordan-Playoff-Clutch-Statistics).

[RRR3]

OP sobbing into his Space Jam PJ’s a lot lately.

[2ball]

Op how are they terrible?

[SATAN]

1-9

[3ball]

1-9


Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5):


2006-2018 LEBRON PLAYOFFS... 134-323... 41.4%... 108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game


1997 & 1998 JORDAN PLAYOFFS'... 42-89... 47.2%... 25 games... 3.6 attempts per game


TLDR: Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5), Lebron shoots 41% on 3.0 attempts per game for his playoff career, compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' MJ (20% more attempts on better efficiency)



Sources:

Lebron:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game


Jordan:

Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)

[SATAN]

Yeah, not reading that. 1-9.

[dankok8]

Op how are they terrible?

47 %TS is beyond terrible... As is 42.5 point and especially 36.4 point per 48.

[3ball]

.
(updated source links for Jordan.. lebron's link requires free membership and logging in to do the search)


Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5):


2006-2018 LEBRON PLAYOFFS... 134-323... 41.4%... 108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game


1997 & 1998 JORDAN PLAYOFFS'... 42-89... 47.2%... 25 games... 3.6 attempts per game


TLDR: Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5), Lebron shoots 41% on 3.0 attempts per game for his playoff career, compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' MJ (20% more attempts on better efficiency)



Sources:

Lebron:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game


Jordan:

Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)

[dankok8]

.
(updated source links for Jordan.. lebron's link requires free membership and logging in to do the search)


Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5):


2006-2018 LEBRON PLAYOFFS... 134-323... 41.4%... 108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game


1997 & 1998 JORDAN PLAYOFFS'... 42-89... 47.2%... 25 games... 3.6 attempts per game


TLDR: Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5), Lebron shoots 41% on 3.0 attempts per game for his playoff career, compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' MJ (20% more attempts on better efficiency)



Sources:

Lebron:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game


Jordan:

Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)

PHILA has full Jordan crunch time stats. Check the link in the OP. For the whole playoffs MJ puts up 61.1 points on 62.5 %TS compared to Lebron's 42.5 points on 54.5 %TS. In the Finals, I'm sure the gap is much larger considering Lebron puts up 36.4 points on 46.8 %TS. Unfortunately we don't have MJ's splits for only the Finals.

[Shooter]

Yeah, not reading that. 1-9.

:lol :lol

[light]

Those stats are really awesome, op.

LeBron is obviously one of the greatest crunch time players in history. That's how he keeps winning.

You brought up Dirk. He's been to two Finals, lol.

Stop it.

[light]

43 points and 8 assists would be something like 63 points per 48 minutes.

Plus 11 rebounds on top of that!?

Wow! LeBron really turns it on crunch time!

And this guy is saying 63 points and 11 rebounds per 48 minutes is "kinda terrible"?

That is not terrible in any universe. That's incredible.

[dankok8]

43 points and 8 assists would be something like 63 points per 48 minutes.

Plus 11 rebounds on top of that!?

Wow! LeBron really turns it on crunch time!

And this guy is saying 63 points and 11 rebounds per 48 minutes is "kinda terrible"?

That is not terrible in any universe. That's incredible.

63 points per 48 minutes actually isn't that great because in crunch time the ball is always in your best player's hands so this amount if likely at or very close to your team's total production. 63 points per 48 minutes equates to about 6.5 points for 5 minutes. So if your team is in a tie game with 5 minutes left, Lebron will create 6-7 points for you handling the ball every time down the floor. You have a very high chance of losing that game. Heck even if you're up 5 with 5 minutes left you will often lose a game where your team only scores 6-7 points until the end.

Guys like Kobe, Dirk and of course Jordan score (excluding assists) well above a point per minute in crunch time. MJ gives his team 61.1 points + 4.8 assists per 48 minutes of crunch time in the playoffs which is about 73 points per 48 minutes. In the aforementioned 5 minute scenario MJ gives you about 8 points and does so on much higher efficiency with much better TS and fewer turnovers. MJ also has much higher steals and blocks numbers so likely does significantly more defensively too.

I'll try and post complete data for other players like Kobe, Dirk, KD, Curry etc. Crunch production is really Lebron's Achilles' heel.

[Manny98]

Try again babyboi

https://i.postimg.cc/26myKG1y/Ekzve-MUX0-AIMEQA-1.jpg

[Manny98]

https://i.postimg.cc/bNvT5Hnm/images-2.jpg

[┌∩┐(﹒︠益﹒︡)┌∩┐]

For reference, most good clutch players average 50+ pts per 48 minutes and obviously on much better shooting efficiency. Lebron's Finals percentages are laughably bad and he's generally scared to put up shots too. Thus the very low volume of points.

Players like Kobe, Dirk, Curry have way better crunch time stats. Jordan blows him out of the water of course. One of all-time best ISH posters PHILA compiled MJ's crunch-time stats for his entire playoffs career here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?322375-Michael-Jordan-Playoff-Clutch-Statistics).

Which good players are you referencing here? Can you post there stats under the same criteria as well? Thank you dankock.

[dankok8]

@Manny

Overall 4th quarter scoring isn't crunch time data. A lot of games are blowouts or those points were scored prior to the 5-minute mark when there is far less pressure. And that's assuming the linked data is correct in the first place.

Game-winning shots are a tiny sample size. Outcomes of 11 shots and 15 shots don't say much. But I know that anyone needing a game-winning shot would take MJ shooting it over Lebron. That's just common sense.

[Spurs m8]

Thats our LeShrink!!!!

And I'm not just talking about his tiny package

[Baller789]

Lebron virgins on panic mode now!

[HoopsNY]

Crunch time is defined by NBA.com as the last 5 minutes of a close game where the score difference is within 5 points.

All this info is available at NBA.com/stats. I simply got it for all playoff and finals runs, aggregated it and normalized it per 48 minutes.

Per 48 - Total Playoffs

42.5 pts, 10.7 reb, 7.9 ass, 1.8 stl, 1.8 blk on 40.7 %FG/35.3 %3P/76.0 %FT with 4.6 tov; 54.5 %TS

Per 48 - Finals Only

36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS

For reference, most good clutch players average 50+ pts per 48 minutes and obviously on much better shooting efficiency. Lebron's Finals percentages are laughably bad and he's generally scared to put up shots too. Thus the very low volume of points.

Players like Kobe, Dirk, Curry have way better crunch time stats. Jordan blows him out of the water of course. One of all-time best ISH posters PHILA compiled MJ's crunch-time stats for his entire playoffs career here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?322375-Michael-Jordan-Playoff-Clutch-Statistics).

I'm assuming these are LeBron's numbers including this year?

[HoopsNY]

Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but what are LeBron's overall clutch (5 under 5) stats vs MJ's in summary? I only saw select years in the link you provided.

[red1]

Thats our LeShrink!!!!

And I'm not just talking about his tiny package

You're gay.

[Vino24]

Op ripping a page off of 3ball in cherry-picking

[And1AllDay]

Op ripping a page off of 3ball in cherry-picking

b-b-b-b-b-but if you take the last 2 minutes and 42 seconds when a team is up or down by 3.4 points while on the road with 1 timeout left you can see that mikey was 1.2 pppgz bettter

:oldlol:

https://i.postimg.cc/dVQ29yyW/23hasAsaviorPIP.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/vB5zMcs1/Top-Scorer-Top-Goat.png

tell us

https://i.postimg.cc/Y92DMhtF/Feelings_hurt.jpg

[dankok8]

Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but what are LeBron's overall clutch (5 under 5) stats vs MJ's in summary? I only saw select years in the link you provided.

Ok... both of these are their entire playoff careers. Per 48:

Lebron: 42.5 pts, 10.7 reb, 7.9 ass, 1.8 stl, 1.8 blk on 40.7 %FG/35.3 %3P/76.0 %FT with 4.6 tov; 54.5 %TS
Jordan: 61.1 pts, 7.8 reb, 4.8 ass, 3.9 stl, 1.4 blk on 52.0 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.0 %FT with 3.3 tov; 62.5 %TS

[plowking]

I'll just say it is interesting how because of LeBron, the measure of success always changes when he challenges or surpasses other great players.


Wasn't a good midrange shooter? Became one at the Heat, so now the excuse was he was left open because they were scared of the drive penetration.
He started catching up in championships? Oh, now we count losses in the finals as a massive negative.
Wasn't good at last shots? Takes over everyone in terms of percentage and makes on game winning shots. Now it is about crunch time stats.
Changed teams? Apparently not allowed either, since you're supposed to win with Larry Hughes as your second best player.


Not only do I think that LeBron is the best basketball player ever, he is probably the best athlete ever. This level of longevity at this level has never been done before in any sport.

[And1AllDay]

I'll just say it is interesting how because of LeBron, the measure of success always changes when he challenges or surpasses other great players.


Wasn't a good midrange shooter? Became one at the Heat, so now the excuse was he was left open because they were scared of the drive penetration.
He started catching up in championships? Oh, now we count losses in the finals as a massive negative.
Wasn't good at last shots? Takes over everyone in terms of percentage and makes on game winning shots. Now it is about crunch time stats.
Changed teams? Apparently not allowed either, since you're supposed to win with Larry Hughes as your second best player.


Not only do I think that LeBron is the best basketball player ever, he is probably the best athlete ever. This level of longevity at this level has never been done before in any sport.

https://media.giphy.com/media/8ypw1zFdnBsQer15zf/giphy.gif

[HoopsNY]

Ok... both of these are their entire playoff careers. Per 48:

Lebron: 42.5 pts, 10.7 reb, 7.9 ass, 1.8 stl, 1.8 blk on 40.7 %FG/35.3 %3P/76.0 %FT with 4.6 tov; 54.5 %TS
Jordan: 61.1 pts, 7.8 reb, 4.8 ass, 3.9 stl, 1.4 blk on 52.0 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.0 %FT with 3.3 tov; 62.5 %TS

Do you have the numbers as is (without Per 48)? And can you link those?

[Spurs m8]

I'll just say it is interesting how because of LeBron, the measure of success always changes when he challenges or surpasses other great players.


Wasn't a good midrange shooter? Became one at the Heat, so now the excuse was he was left open because they were scared of the drive penetration.
He started catching up in championships? Oh, now we count losses in the finals as a massive negative.
Wasn't good at last shots? Takes over everyone in terms of percentage and makes on game winning shots. Now it is about crunch time stats.
Changed teams? Apparently not allowed either, since you're supposed to win with Larry Hughes as your second best player.


Not only do I think that LeBron is the best basketball player ever, he is probably the best athlete ever. This level of longevity at this level has never been done before in any sport.

Yeah, but you're a basement dwelling f@ggot who's never played sport in your life, so no one cares what you think

[dankok8]

Do you have the numbers as is (without Per 48)? And can you link those?

Here are the totals.

Lebron: 467 points, 118 rebounds, 87 assists, 20 steals, 20 blocks on 138/339 FG 36/102 3P 155/205 FT with 51 turnovers in 527 minutes
Jordan: 519 points, 66 rebounds, 41 assists, 33 steals, 12 blocks on 166/319 FG 6/24 3P 181/218 FT with 28 turnovers in 408 minutes

[dankok8]

I'll just say it is interesting how because of LeBron, the measure of success always changes when he challenges or surpasses other great players.


Wasn't a good midrange shooter? Became one at the Heat, so now the excuse was he was left open because they were scared of the drive penetration.
He started catching up in championships? Oh, now we count losses in the finals as a massive negative.
Wasn't good at last shots? Takes over everyone in terms of percentage and makes on game winning shots. Now it is about crunch time stats.
Changed teams? Apparently not allowed either, since you're supposed to win with Larry Hughes as your second best player.


Not only do I think that LeBron is the best basketball player ever, he is probably the best athlete ever. This level of longevity at this level has never been done before in any sport.

Measure of success doesn't change. Maybe for 3ball... not for me. The end goal of the game of basketball is to win titles. To me the greatest basketball player ever should be able to lead his team to more championships than anyone else. MJ in his prime has better stats than Lebron, has a better skillset and has won more than Lebron. And yes has better crunch time numbers and so is objectively the better closer.

Game-winning shots are a stupid metric with an incredibly tiny samples size. Trying to conclude something from like a dozen shots taken makes zero sense. Not to mention the numbers completely change with slightly changing the criteria. For instance you get one set of numbers with 5 seconds left in the game but if you make that 10 seconds you get different numbers. Crunch time stats give a far greater sample size.

[And1AllDay]

Measure of success doesn't change. Maybe for 3ball... not for me. The end goal of the game of basketball is to win titles. To me the greatest basketball player ever should be able to lead his team to more championships than anyone else. MJ in his prime has better stats than Lebron, has a better skillset and has won more than Lebron. And yes has better crunch time numbers and so is objectively the better closer.

Game-winning shots are a stupid metric with an incredibly tiny samples size. Trying to conclude something from like a dozen shots taken makes zero sense. Not to mention the numbers completely change with slightly changing the criteria. For instance you get one set of numbers with 5 seconds left in the game but if you make that 10 seconds you get different numbers. Crunch time stats give a far greater sample size.

13 players have 6 rings
1 has 6,000 playoff points

[Baller789]

13 players have 6 rings
1 has 6,000 playoff points

So your saying its better to have 6,000 playoff points with less rings, than have more rings?

[Hey Yo]

Measure of success doesn't change. Maybe for 3ball... not for me. The end goal of the game of basketball is to win titles. To me the greatest basketball player ever should be able to lead his team to more championships than anyone else. MJ in his prime has better stats than Lebron, has a better skillset and has won more than Lebron. And yes has better crunch time numbers and so is objectively the better closer.

Game-winning shots are a stupid metric with an incredibly tiny samples size. Trying to conclude something from like a dozen shots taken makes zero sense. Not to mention the numbers completely change with slightly changing the criteria. For instance you get one set of numbers with 5 seconds left in the game but if you make that 10 seconds you get different numbers. Crunch time stats give a far greater sample size.
So Russell is your GOAT?

[HoopsNY]

Here are the totals.

Lebron: 467 points, 118 rebounds, 87 assists, 20 steals, 20 blocks on 138/339 FG 36/102 3P 155/205 FT with 51 turnovers in 527 minutes
Jordan: 519 points, 66 rebounds, 41 assists, 33 steals, 12 blocks on 166/319 FG 6/24 3P 181/218 FT with 28 turnovers in 408 minutes

Can you link us to where you're seeing it?

[And1AllDay]

https://i.postimg.cc/9MqyB6KY/Plsnobran.jpg

[And1AllDay]

So your saying its better to have 6,000 playoff points with less rings, than have more rings?

its harder. its more rare. so then

you think its better to have an big accomplishent that 13 other guys also have (6 rangz)? Or being the only one (points leader)?

[dankok8]

So Russell is your GOAT?

He's the most objective GOAT. Yes.


Can you link us to where you're seeing it?

Lebron's stats are simply available on NBA.com/stats. Add up all of his crunch-time total from every years of his career he played in the playoffs.

Jordan's stats are here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?322375-Michael-Jordan-Playoff-Clutch-Statistics

[And1AllDay]

13 players have 6 rings
1 has 6,000 playoff points

dankok8 dont run

[dankok8]

dankok8 dont run

How many guys have 6 rings as the best player on their teams? There's only two in history... MJ and Russell.

[And1AllDay]

How many guys have 6 rings as the best player on their teams? There's only two in history... MJ and Russell.

but this is where it all falls apart

there are tons with 5
magic, kobe, duncan, bla bla

how many with 7400 pts? 7000? 6500? 6000!??!!!!

bran has legapped everyone

[dankok8]

but this is where it all falls apart

there are tons with 5
magic, kobe, duncan, bla bla

how many with 7400 pts? 7000? 6500? 6000!??!!!!

bran has legapped everyone

Nope... Magic was only the best player for 3-4. Kobe for 2. Duncan for 4. Nobody is close to Jordan and Russell as far as winning.

Russell and MJ blocked an entire generation of players from winning titles. Jordan's era looks "weak" because nobody could beat him. Nobody in their right mind who knows shit about the game would call an era with Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley a weak era. To me personally MJ takes that small edge over Bill Russell because he never got outplayed. Russell actually had instances where Wilt outplayed him or arguably outplayed him. Nobody outplayed Jordan. If most people gave you their definition of the best player of all time if they imagined the perfect basketball player they would say:

- a guy who won the most
- a guy who was always the best player on the court

MJ fits both of those descriptions. That's why most people consider him the GOAT. Lebron can still get that first criteria by winning more and if he does win 6+ titles as the best player I will put him in the GOAT tier. I can see Russell as GOAT because of 11 rings. I can also kind of see Kareem although Lebron may become the "new Kareem". Lebron's case will be similar. Always won with stacked teams, not always the best player but will have insane longevity stats. Some people go for that... But not now. With 4 titles as the best player you can't be GOAT. He simply didn't win enough.

[SATAN]

Rings are over rated in the "goat criteria". This has been done to death. It always goes the same way. Thread after thread. :oldlol:

[dankok8]

Rings are over rated in the "goat criteria". This has been done to death. It always goes the same way. Thread after thread. :oldlol:

If anything rings are underrated. Great players play the game to win rings. Lebron would trade a whole bunch of his stats for a couple of more rings.

[Axe]

Lmao if rings are 'overrated', then for what reason did the lakers recruit ad for if striving for rings isn't even their priority? Go figure. :facepalm

[Baller789]

its harder. its more rare. so then

you think its better to have an big accomplishent that 13 other guys also have (6 rangz)? Or being the only one (points leader)?
The 2015-2016 Golden State Warriors won 73 games.

They stand alone with that record.

I bet you a $100 that whole roster would trade that record for an extra ring.

[Hey Yo]

How many guys have 6 rings as the best player on their teams? There's only two in history... MJ and Russell.
MJ is the only player who needed to take time off and rest in order to get more than 3 rings.

[And1AllDay]

The 2015-2016 Golden State Warriors won 73 games.

They stand alone with that record.

I bet you a $100 that whole roster would trade that record for an extra ring.

:oldlol:

thats not how life works


Q: which is harder? a ring, or, 73 wins?

[And1AllDay]

https://i.postimg.cc/9MqyB6KY/Plsnobran.jpg

lerecord

Un•break•able

[dankok8]

Lebron is also the all-time leader in playoff turnovers with almost double Magic's number. You will obviously lead in total stats when you play the most games. Everyone knows that Lebron isn't nearly the same scorer Jordan was.

[Baller789]

:oldlol:

thats not how life works


Q: which is harder? a ring, or, 73 wins?

Yes. Thats how life works unless your a delusional Lebron fan.

[ArbitraryWater]

https://i.postimg.cc/26myKG1y/Ekzve-MUX0-AIMEQA-1.jpg



/thread

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.postimg.cc/26myKG1y/Ekzve-MUX0-AIMEQA-1.jpg



/thread
I'm honestly shocked how high LeBron's FT% is, he's never come close to shooting those percentages at the line ever

And yikes, all 3 of them are atrocious from 3 :lol Esp Mike

[dankok8]

4th quarter stats aren't clutch stats... These are the real Finals clutch stats for Lebron, courtesy of nba.com/stats. Last 5 minutes of the game (4th quarter + OT) within 5 points. Games that are actually close...

36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS

Atrocious...

[ArbitraryWater]

4th quarter stats aren't clutch stats... These are the real Finals clutch stats for Lebron, courtesy of nba.com/stats. Last 5 minutes of the game (4th quarter + OT) within 5 points. Games that are actually close...

36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS

Atrocious...

no, those aren't "real" clutch stats, those are made-up parameters... what about last 5:30?

Here, take the whole 4th while you're at it:

https://i.postimg.cc/26myKG1y/Ekzve-MUX0-AIMEQA-1.jpg

[dankok8]

no, those aren't "real" clutch stats, those are made-up parameters... what about last 5:30?

Here, take the whole 4th while you're at it:

https://i.postimg.cc/26myKG1y/Ekzve-MUX0-AIMEQA-1.jpg

They aren't made up. NBA.com defines that as crunch time and it's used universally as a definition of crunch time. And sample size is very large. If you used 6 minutes or 4 minutes the data wouldn't change much.

How many 4th quarters are blowouts or at least comfortable margins? What you posted aren't clutch stats at all.

[ArbitraryWater]

They aren't made up. NBA.com defines that as crunch time and it's used universally as a definition of crunch time. And sample size is very large. If you used 6 minutes or 4 minutes the data wouldn't change much.

How many 4th quarters are blowouts or at least comfortable margins? What you posted aren't clutch stats at all.

Lmaoo, and who is that?

NBA.com, universal definition, I can't...

[dankok8]

Lmaoo, and who is that?

NBA.com, universal definition, I can't...

82games uses it as well. Everyone knows crunch time is last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter or overtime within 5 points.

[red1]

LeDemocrat is winning on every level


to knock him we now have to insult him for making 10 finals or for winning 4 rings.


its over. the haters have nothing. just go home my boys.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeDemocrat is winning on every level


to knock him we now have to insult him for making 10 finals or for winning 4 rings.


its over. the haters have nothing. just go home my boys.
SIX Finals losses

[Baller789]

They aren't made up. NBA.com defines that as crunch time and it's used universally as a definition of crunch time. And sample size is very large. If you used 6 minutes or 4 minutes the data wouldn't change much.

How many 4th quarters are blowouts or at least comfortable margins? What you posted aren't clutch stats at all.

Lebron fangirls in panic mode now.

[dankok8]

Aggregated a few more numbers... some more "clutch" guys from the last 20 years.

Crunch-time Stats per 48 - Entire Playoff Careers:


Durant: 35.5 pts, 9.0 reb, 3.2 ass, 1.6 stl, 1.6 blk on 41.5 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.8 %FT with 4.6 tov; 53.8 %TS
Dirk: 36.9 pts, 13.7 reb, 3.2 ass, 0.9 blk, 0.9 blk on 36.5 %FG/37.9 %3P/92.6 %FT with 2.4 tov; 58.9 %TS
Curry: 41.4 pts, 6.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.4 stl, 0.0 blk on 37.4 %FG/39.4 %3P/94.5 %FT with 3.8 tov; 56.7 %TS
Lebron: 42.5 pts, 10.7 reb, 7.9 ass, 1.8 stl, 1.8 blk on 40.7 %FG/35.3 %3P/76.0 %FT with 4.6 tov; 54.5 %TS
Kobe: 43.1 pts, 5.9 reb, 4.7 ass, 1.3 stl, 0.6 blk on 39.6 %FG/23.4 %3P/83.2 %FT with 2.9 tov; 54.1 %TS
Jordan: 61.1 pts, 7.8 reb, 4.8 ass, 3.9 stl, 1.4 blk on 52.0 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.0 %FT with 3.3 tov; 62.5 %TS


MJ is just on a whole other level... Durant is terrible in the clutch, worst of the bunch by far. Dirk, Curry and Kobe are pretty close to Lebron. The thread title is harsh when I said Lebron's stats are terrible. It's really only MJ who is way ahead of the pack. Lebron is actually good in the clutch. I only looked at MJ's numbers and then assumed it was Lebron who was bad.

[HoopsNY]

Aggregated a few more numbers... some more "clutch" guys from the last 20 years.

Crunch-time Stats per 48 - Entire Playoff Careers:


Durant: 35.5 pts, 9.0 reb, 3.2 ass, 1.6 stl, 1.6 blk on 41.5 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.8 %FT with 4.6 tov; 53.8 %TS
Dirk: 36.9 pts, 13.7 reb, 3.2 ass, 0.9 blk, 0.9 blk on 36.5 %FG/37.9 %3P/92.6 %FT with 2.4 tov; 58.9 %TS
Curry: 41.4 pts, 6.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.4 stl, 0.0 blk on 37.4 %FG/39.4 %3P/94.5 %FT with 3.8 tov; 56.7 %TS
Lebron: 42.5 pts, 10.7 reb, 7.9 ass, 1.8 stl, 1.8 blk on 40.7 %FG/35.3 %3P/76.0 %FT with 4.6 tov; 54.5 %TS
Kobe: 43.1 pts, 5.9 reb, 4.7 ass, 1.3 stl, 0.6 blk on 39.6 %FG/23.4 %3P/83.2 %FT with 2.9 tov; 54.1 %TS
Jordan: 61.1 pts, 7.8 reb, 4.8 ass, 3.9 stl, 1.4 blk on 52.0 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.0 %FT with 3.3 tov; 62.5 %TS


MJ is just on a whole other level... Durant is terrible in the clutch, worst of the bunch by far. Dirk, Curry and Kobe are pretty close to Lebron. The thread title is harsh when I said Lebron's stats are terrible. It's really only MJ who is way ahead of the pack. Lebron is actually good in the clutch. I only looked at MJ's numbers and then assumed it was Lebron who was bad.

I checked the link in the post and it's actually a post from RealGM. The thing is that the OP from RealGM did his own research. Are these actually MJs numbers for his entire career when there aren't any official statistics to back it up?

The OP from RealGM judged based on shot charts from the 80s and 90s. I'm not too privy to this information, but I would hope some actual official statistics come out in the near future because something tells me his version is a bit off when you look at Jordan's Net Ratings vs other players.

[dankok8]

I checked the link in the post and it's actually a post from RealGM. The thing is that the OP from RealGM did his own research. Are these actually MJs numbers for his entire career when there aren't any official statistics to back it up?

The OP from RealGM judged based on shot charts from the 80s and 90s. I'm not too privy to this information, but I would hope some actual official statistics come out in the near future because something tells me his version is a bit off when you look at Jordan's Net Ratings vs other players.

Net Ratings are a different story because they are only estimates but the points, rebounds assists and all other stats were tabulated. He made a list of all close games that had crunch-time minutes watched the footage and tallied every box score contribution by MJ.

Anyways NBA.com/stats has Jordan's data from only 1997 and 1998 playoffs. Those are official statistics:

Per 48

57.8 pts, 7.1 reb, 5.3 ass, 2.7 stl, 1.8 blk on 47.2 %FG/20.0 %3P/78.9 %FT with 4.9 tov; 57.0 %TS

Totals

130 pts, 16 reb, 12 ass, 6 stl, 4 blk on 42-89 FG/2-10 3P/45-57 FT with 11 turnovers in 108 minutes

Jordan even in his two statistically worst postseasons of this career in 1997 and 1998 still has the best crunch-time stats of any player and by a lot... I think it's very believable that Jordan's overall career would have slightly better numbers than this which is what PHILA posted.

[HoopsNY]

Net Ratings are a different story because they are only estimates but the points, rebounds assists and all other stats were tabulated. He made a list of all close games that had crunch-time minutes watched the footage and tallied every box score contribution by MJ.

Anyways NBA.com/stats has Jordan's data from only 1997 and 1998 playoffs. Those are official statistics:

Per 48

57.8 pts, 7.1 reb, 5.3 ass, 2.7 stl, 1.8 blk on 47.2 %FG/20.0 %3P/78.9 %FT with 4.9 tov; 57.0 %TS

Totals

130 pts, 16 reb, 12 ass, 6 stl, 4 blk on 42-89 FG/2-10 3P/45-57 FT with 11 turnovers in 108 minutes

Jordan even in his two statistically worst postseasons of this career in 1997 and 1998 still has the best crunch-time stats of any player and by a lot... I think it's very believable that Jordan's overall career would have slightly better numbers than this which is what PHILA posted.

How did he watch every playoff game and is there even footage of it all? Not to mention, we're solely reliant upon this researcher's eye test. He may have gotten some things wrong which might have inflated the data. I'd wait for some official statistics before championing it.

Having said that, you are correct in saying the 1997 and 1998 numbers appear to be better than every player from today's era. This alone stands out quite remarkably.

I always cringe when LeBran stans come along with the whole, "HE'S MORE CLUTCH THAN MJ!" Like, really? All based on a 16 shot sample size over 17 seasons? You can't make this stuff up.

Not to mention, more than one of those "buzzer beaters" come with LeBron traveling that the refs just did not call.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How did he watch every playoff game and is there even footage of it all? Not to mention, we're solely reliant upon this researcher's eye test. He may have gotten some things wrong which might have inflated the data. I'd wait for some official statistics before championing it.

Every playoff game of Jordan's is available. Every single one. I have all of them in my collection, too.

Agree that it's tough to rely on ONE person's account though. That poster should've at least timestamped those numbers. Would be an extra step in already a LONG task, but that way others could view the referenced points. At least then there wouldn't be a question of doubt.


Per 48

57.8 pts, 7.1 reb, 5.3 ass, 2.7 stl, 1.8 blk on 47.2 %FG/20.0 %3P/78.9 %FT with 4.9 tov; 57.0 %TS

Totals

130 pts, 16 reb, 12 ass, 6 stl, 4 blk on 42-89 FG/2-10 3P/45-57 FT with 11 turnovers in 108 minutes

The greatest player of all time with the greatest numbers in crunchtime. Seems fitting.

[dankok8]

How did he watch every playoff game and is there even footage of it all? Not to mention, we're solely reliant upon this researcher's eye test. He may have gotten some things wrong which might have inflated the data. I'd wait for some official statistics before championing it.

Having said that, you are correct in saying the 1997 and 1998 numbers appear to be better than every player from today's era. This alone stands out quite remarkably.

I always cringe when LeBran stans come along with the whole, "HE'S MORE CLUTCH THAN MJ!" Like, really? All based on a 16 shot sample size over 17 seasons? You can't make this stuff up.

Not to mention, more than one of those "buzzer beaters" come with LeBron traveling that the refs just did not call.

Basing any argument on a sample size of 16 shots is ridiculous. It's beyond stupid like you say. And game-winning shots is also where you get different numbers if you slightly change the times. For instance for the last 10 seconds the data can be very different than the last 5 seconds or last 24 seconds. It's almost cherry-picking. Depending on how you slice the data you can prove anything. For example Lebron is 0-7 on game-tying or game-winning shots in the Finals in the last 24 seconds.

I don't have a reason to distrust PHILA at all but fair enough. Either way MJ's crunch-time stats are GOAT level and way better than anyone else. His two worst postseasons statistically he still has the best crunch-time numbers by far...

[guy]

Basing any argument on a sample size of 16 shots is ridiculous. It's beyond stupid like you say. And game-winning shots is also where you get different numbers if you slightly change the times. For instance for the last 10 seconds the data can be very different than the last 5 seconds or last 24 seconds. It's almost cherry-picking. Depending on how you slice the data you can prove anything. For example Lebron is 0-7 on game-tying or game-winning shots in the Finals in the last 24 seconds.

I don't have a reason to distrust PHILA at all but fair enough. Either way MJ's crunch-time stats are GOAT level and way better than anyone else. His two worst postseasons statistically he still has the best crunch-time numbers by far...

In a slower-paced era relative to the current era as well. Ridiculous.

[HoopsNY]

Every playoff game of Jordan's is available. Every single one. I have all of them in my collection, too.

Agree that it's tough to rely on ONE person's account though. That poster should've at least timestamped those numbers. Would be an extra step in already a LONG task, but that way others could view the referenced points. At least then there wouldn't be a question of doubt.



The greatest player of all time with the greatest numbers in crunchtime. Seems fitting.

I didn't know. Thank you for clarifying. Makes sense then. I'm hoping it can be checked by someone else. I can believe it happen, but would still like some verification. The 1997 and 1998 numbers are pretty telling, though.

[FireDavidKahn]

Hoop Central
@TheHoopCentral
Deep 3 shooting % leaders over the last three seasons;

LeBron James - 40.9% (61-149 3PM)

Steph Curry - 40.4% (82-203 3PM)

Damian Lillard - 36.8% (183-498 3PM)

Kevin Durant - 29.8% (31-104 3PM)

(via
@Stathead
, h/t
@ALLICONICSPORTS
)

:hammertime::hammertime::hammertime:

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/VvZx1WgH/UndaPressha.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/DzzZTFCP/tenor.gif

[Psileas]

Crunch time is defined by NBA.com as the last 5 minutes of a close game where the score difference is within 5 points.


Then it's poorly defined, and/or leaves out many cases, if no further explanations are given.
What if it's a 3 point game with 5' to go, but team A gets hot in the end and wins by 10-15? Are all these really crunch time points?
What if you're trailing by 15 with 5' to go but drop the margin to 5 after 3'? Aren't all these points credited as crunch time points?
What if it's a 3-8 point game throughout the whole span with the margin going up and down? Do some points get credited and others don't? Of course, this would make no sense and would kill the whole FG% thing, but it's one thing to shoot when the margin is at 3 and another at 8.

[TheCorporation]

Then it's poorly defined, and/or leaves out many cases, if no further explanations are given.
What if it's a 3 point game with 5' to go, but team A gets hot in the end and wins by 10-15? Are all these really crunch time points?
What if you're trailing by 15 with 5' to go but drop the margin to 5 after 3'? Aren't all these points credited as crunch time points?
What if it's a 3-8 point game throughout the whole span with the margin going up and down? Do some points get credited and others don't? Of course, this would make no sense and would kill the whole FG% thing, but it's one thing to shoot when the margin is at 3 and another at 8.

Bingo. Someone went to college.

Meanwhile OP is in shambles grasping for any piece of info left to claim MJ > LJ but his options are narrowing. I like to keep it simple.

Playoffs = real clutch time

•Most game winners = LJ
•Best elim. game ppg = LJ
•Best comebacks = LJ
•Best leadership = LJ

[MadDog]

Then it's poorly defined, and/or leaves out many cases, if no further explanations are given.
What if it's a 3 point game with 5' to go, but team A gets hot in the end and wins by 10-15? Are all these really crunch time points?
What if you're trailing by 15 with 5' to go but drop the margin to 5 after 3'? Aren't all these points credited as crunch time points?.

What? Under your first scenario ALL points count once the margin is 5. If that team hits a three to increase their lead from 5 to 8, it counts. After the go-ahead field goal, obviously the tallying would stop. Same thing would apply under your second example. No stat is perfect, but this one gives plenty of leeway. :confusedshrug:

[Psileas]

What? Under your first scenario ALL points count once the margin is 5. If that team hits a three to increase their lead from 5 to 8, it counts. After the go-ahead field goal, obviously the tallying would stop. Same thing would apply under your second example. No stat is perfect, but this one gives plenty of leeway. :confusedshrug:

And how exactly do you know that this was the way the statkeeper kept the data instead of just seeing whether the margin at 5' was more or less than 5 points? Don't just guesstimate, show me the link that specifies these details.

[Charlie Sheen]

4th quarter stats aren't clutch stats... These are the real Finals clutch stats for Lebron, courtesy of nba.com/stats. Last 5 minutes of the game (4th quarter + OT) within 5 points. Games that are actually close...

36.4 pts, 11.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 30.7 %FG/25.9 %3P/88.9 %FT with 3.9 tov; 46.8 %TS

Atrocious...

If the Lakers got 3 straight empty possessions and they just lost the lead in desperate need of bucket. Everyone watching on tv knows the ball is going to Lebron the next possession and he converts... you're going to tell me that isn't clutch play because it happened outside of <5minutes in the 4th?

[MadDog]

And how exactly do you know that this was the way the statkeeper kept the data instead of just seeing whether the margin at 5' was more or less than 5 points? Don't just guesstimate, show me the link that specifies these details.

Unless you're a handicap, google it. How "clutch" gets defined is there in plain english.

[Psileas]

Unless you're a handicap, google it. How "clutch" is defined is there in plain english.

OK, go on, I'm a "handicap", show me that the keeper has kept the stats of Jordan, Kobe, Curry, Dirk, etc only when the span is at 5 points or less and doesn't just see what the margin was with 5:00 remaining.

BTW, dankok's total numbers are way too high NOT to favor the latter scenario. According to what he posted, Jordan having scored 519 points means he's played 408 "crunch time" minutes in 179 games, meaning 2.28 minutes per game out of a possible (but absolutely improbable) maximum of 5 (or slightly higher, including OT's). You're telling me that this already high number of minutes includes all the special cases I mentioned and maybe a few more I didn't? Sorry, not buying this.

[dankok8]

Then it's poorly defined, and/or leaves out many cases, if no further explanations are given.
What if it's a 3 point game with 5' to go, but team A gets hot in the end and wins by 10-15? Are all these really crunch time points?
What if you're trailing by 15 with 5' to go but drop the margin to 5 after 3'? Aren't all these points credited as crunch time points?
What if it's a 3-8 point game throughout the whole span with the margin going up and down? Do some points get credited and others don't? Of course, this would make no sense and would kill the whole FG% thing, but it's one thing to shoot when the margin is at 3 and another at 8.

I compared the data for several playoffs to play-by-play data and it matches... only field goals scored and other contributions made when the margin is 5 points or less are counted. Basketball-Reference has play-by-play data going back to the 1996-1997 season so you can check yourself.

Whether PHILA did every field goal accurately when he went through Jordan's entire career I don't know but he specifically said that he used the NBA crunch-time definition.

[dankok8]

OK, go on, I'm a "handicap", show me that the keeper has kept the stats of Jordan, Kobe, Curry, Dirk, etc only when the span is at 5 points or less and doesn't just see what the margin was with 5:00 remaining.

BTW, dankok's total numbers are way too high NOT to favor the latter scenario. According to what he posted, Jordan having scored 519 points means he's played 408 "crunch time" minutes in 179 games, meaning 2.28 minutes per game out of a possible (but absolutely improbable) maximum of 5 (or slightly higher, including OT's). You're telling me that this already high number of minutes includes all the special cases I mentioned and maybe a few more I didn't? Sorry, not buying this.

I'm buying it because the 90's were a low scoring era so most games were close late. The data also includes overtimes not just 4th quarters.

[Psileas]

I compared the data for several playoffs to play-by-play data and it matches... only field goals scored and other contributions made when the margin is 5 points or less are counted. Basketball-Reference has play-by-play data going back to the 1996-1997 season so you can check yourself.

Whether PHILA did every field goal accurately when he went through Jordan's entire career I don't know but he specifically said that he used the NBA crunch-time definition.

So, according to the numbers you've posted, did Jordan actually play 408 "clutch time" minutes, meaning that every playoff game of him, including blowouts, all the scenarios I've mentioned above etc, still averages around 2.3 minutes of "5 minutes or less, strictly 5 points of margin or less" situations? Seems too high. Maybe I'll have to check some of these games, as well.

Edit: Just read the post above. I'll check some of them, because I'm still not really convinced, especially with seasons like 1991 or '96 into account.

[MadDog]

OK, go on, I'm a "handicap", show me that the keeper has kept the stats of Jordan, Kobe, Curry, Dirk, etc only when the span is at 5 points or less and doesn't just see what the margin was with 5:00 remaining.

WTF is this clown talking about. :oldlol:


NBA.com has a "Player Clutch" section in which they define clutch as the last five minutes of a game in which the point differential is 5 or less. While this is a straightforward and reasonable definition of clutch situations, it can clearly be improved. A three point basket with your team down by two and five seconds to play is far more clutch than a two pointer with 3:50 on the clock and up by three.

Look at the bold - "Straight forward and reasonable". You're the only one here who cannot make sense of it. Again, as long as the margin is within 5, every point to cut or increase a lead will count.


BTW, dankok's total numbers are way too high NOT to favor the latter scenario.

No they aren't.

[Psileas]

NBA.com has a "Player Clutch" section in which they define clutch as the last five minutes of a game in which the point differential is 5 or less. While this is a straightforward and reasonable definition of clutch situations, it can clearly be improved. A three point basket with your team down by two and five seconds to play is far more clutch than a two pointer with 3:50 on the clock and up by three.

Haha, idiot, is this what you call "explanation"? Let me make it as simplistic as it gets for a retard like you: In the phrase "last five minutes of a game in which the point differential is 5 or less", what makes it clear that the word "which" refers to the specific minutes that the margin is 5 or less or to the margin of the game with 5:00 remaining? Only an idiot would think this is an adequately accurate phrasing and I'm not surprised in the least that you found no problems with this.


No they aren't.


Yeah, as if you'd be able to do the mental math to save your life.
Ignore list, don't even bother to respond.

[MadDog]

Haha, idiot, is this what you call "explanation"? Let me make it as simplistic as it gets for a retard like you: In the phrase "last five minutes of a game in which the point differential is 5 or less", what makes it clear that the word "which" refers to the specific minutes that the margin is 5 or less or to the margin of the game with 5:00 remaining? Only an idiot would think this is an adequately accurate phrasing and I'm not surprised in the least that you found no problems with this.

You're still confused about a straightforward definition. Like, what?


Yeah, as if you'd be able to do the mental math to save your life.
Ignore list, don't even bother to respond.

You're unable to grasp simple concepts and can barely speak english, but I'm the retard? You better put me on ignore, Einstein. :oldlol:

[8Ball]

Then it's poorly defined, and/or leaves out many cases, if no further explanations are given.
What if it's a 3 point game with 5' to go, but team A gets hot in the end and wins by 10-15? Are all these really crunch time points?
What if you're trailing by 15 with 5' to go but drop the margin to 5 after 3'? Aren't all these points credited as crunch time points?
What if it's a 3-8 point game throughout the whole span with the margin going up and down? Do some points get credited and others don't? Of course, this would make no sense and would kill the whole FG% thing, but it's one thing to shoot when the margin is at 3 and another at 8.

Looks like there is some intellect here vs the tards that can't bear to watch LeBron and just go look at stats to make a point.

[dankok8]

So, according to the numbers you've posted, did Jordan actually play 408 "clutch time" minutes, meaning that every playoff game of him, including blowouts, all the scenarios I've mentioned above etc, still averages around 2.3 minutes of "5 minutes or less, strictly 5 points of margin or less" situations? Seems too high. Maybe I'll have to check some of these games, as well.

Edit: Just read the post above. I'll check some of them, because I'm still not really convinced, especially with seasons like 1991 or '96 into account.

I think Jordan had a higher share of crunch-time minutes because games had much lower point totals. When teams are scoring in the 80's and 90's a lot more games will be within 5 points in the 4th quarter than when teams are scoring in the 100's and 110's. Jordan had 408 crunch-time minutes in 179 games (2.28 per game) and Lebron has 527 minutes in 260 games (2.03 per game). I think that's quite reasonable given the lower scoring totals.

If you see the official data from 1997 and 1998 postseasons, Jordan has 108 crunch-time minutes in those two playoffs alone.

[Psileas]

MadDog


This message is hidden because MadDog is on your ignore list.

Whatever you wrote, phuck off.


I think Jordan had a higher share of crunch-time minutes because games had much lower point totals. When teams are scoring in the 80's and 90's a lot more games will be within 5 points in the 4th quarter than when teams are scoring in the 100's and 110's. Jordan had 408 crunch-time minutes in 179 games (2.28 per game) and Lebron has 527 minutes in 260 games (2.03 per game). I think that's quite reasonable given the lower scoring totals.

If you see the official data from 1997 and 1998 postseasons, Jordan has 108 crunch-time minutes in those two playoffs alone.

Is nba.com the source for this? That's interesting - I didn't bother with viewing any site and did it by hand instead and for the same exact postseasons, I got 101 minutes, with Jordan shooting 45/91 FG, which extend my curiosity. Of course, I may have missed a few plays here and there and may need to review these stats, but 7 minutes seem like kind of a wide span.

[dankok8]

Whatever you wrote, phuck off.



Is nba.com the source for this? That's interesting - I didn't bother with viewing any site and did it by hand instead and for the same exact postseasons, I got 101 minutes, with Jordan shooting 45/91 FG, which extend my curiosity. Of course, I may have missed a few plays here and there and may need to review these stats, but 7 minutes seem like kind of a wide span.

Yea the stats for 1997 and 1998 are from NBA.com. Their data shows 42/89.

Your data actually shows him as being even more prolific! Lebron stans will hate you... :lol

[3ball]

Lmao if rings are 'overrated', then for what reason did the lakers recruit ad for if striving for rings isn't even their priority? Go figure. :facepalm

Lakers needed AD to lead the Lakers and Lebron in scoring

Lebron always needs an elite 1st option to pass to and close possessions.

[8Ball]

Lakers needed AD to lead the Lakers and Lebron in scoring

Lebron always needs an elite 1st option to pass to and close possessions.

2018 LeBron PER > any of Jordan's playoff PER.

32.2 > Any playoff PER Jordan.

2009 playoffs 37.4 PER > Anything Jordan could have ever done statistically.


LeBron's peak > Jordan's peak.
LeBron's longevity > Jordan's longevity.

[TheCorporation]

2018 LeBron PER > any of Jordan's playoff PER.

32.2 > Any playoff PER Jordan.

2009 playoffs 37.4 PER > Anything Jordan could have ever done statistically.


LeBron's peak > Jordan's peak.
LeBron's longevity > Jordan's longevity.

We win again

3ball cant escape this and I love it

[dankok8]

2018 LeBron PER > any of Jordan's playoff PER.

32.2 > Any playoff PER Jordan.

2009 playoffs 37.4 PER > Anything Jordan could have ever done statistically.


LeBron's peak > Jordan's peak.
LeBron's longevity > Jordan's longevity.

Any run that doesn't involve winning a championship will never be considered a GOAT run.

[3ball]

We win again

3ball cant escape this and I love it

Jordan had higher levels in other stats and for his career

There's nothing I don't respond to and correct

Otoh, you guys can't respond to anything I post

[Shooter]

Any run that doesn't involve winning a championship will never be considered a GOAT run.

You are giving a lot of weight and value to teammates then? Overvaluing championships to the point of making Pippen god tier, thanks for reminding us.

Because as we all know
MJ lost in the 1st round THREE years in a row. And the excuse was "he had no HALP"

Then when he starts winning magically...Why would that be? Because of his HALP.
Check mate

[Shooter]

Jordan had higher levels in other stats and for his career

There's nothing I don't respond to and correct

Otoh, you guys can't respond to anything I post

MJ is #2 in scoring, game winners, mvp win shares, vorp, the list goes on

Seems like top 5 is good enough for him.

[3ball]

MJ is #2 in scoring, game winners, mvp win shares, vorp, the list goes on

Seems like top 5 is good enough for him.

MJ had the #1 production rate, aka PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons

higher production rate = more winning

So Jordan had higher production rate and was dpoy candidate every year, while lebron has lower production rate and no all-defense in 7 years

[dankok8]

You are giving a lot of weight and value to teammates then? Overvaluing championships to the point of making Pippen god tier, thanks for reminding us.

Because as we all know
MJ lost in the 1st round THREE years in a row. And the excuse was "he had no HALP"

Then when he starts winning magically...Why would that be? Because of his HALP.
Check mate

Actually in 1989 MJ reached the ECF with Pippen nowhere near all-star level. Everyone needs help to win titles. No playoff run will ever be considered one of the best ever without a title. That's just the truth and that applied to MJ, Lebron and everyone else.

[3ba11]

Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5):


2006-2018 LEBRON PLAYOFFS... 134-323... 41.4%... 108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game


1997 & 1998 JORDAN PLAYOFFS'... 42-89... 47.2%... 25 games... 3.6 attempts per game


TLDR: Down the stretch of tight playoff games (last 5 within 5), Lebron shoots 41% on 3.0 attempts per game for his playoff career, compared to 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97' and 98' MJ (20% more attempts on better efficiency)



Sources:

Lebron:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game


Jordan:

Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)... 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)





Lebron isn't an assist target (off-ball), so his assisted rate is low

Therefore, most of his buckets are unassisted 1-on-1 AAU-ball, while his possession-closing rate (assisted rate) is low.. He simply isn't a closer

[3ba11]

He's overrated

An ugly game and bricklayer

[Spurs m8]

There's a reason he's widely known as LeAntiClutch

[8Ball]

Try again babyboi

https://i.postimg.cc/26myKG1y/Ekzve-MUX0-AIMEQA-1.jpg

Thanks Manny

[8Ball]

2018 LeBron PER > any of Jordan's playoff PER.

32.2 > Any playoff PER Jordan.

2009 playoffs 37.4 PER > Anything Jordan could have ever done statistically.


LeBron's peak > Jordan's peak.
LeBron's longevity > Jordan's longevity.

Oh damn what a smart post.

[TheGoatest]

https://images4.imagebam.com/a0/cf/d6/MEBVXRS_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/90/94/e8/MEBVXS0_o.png

OP fuming so bad about this data, he'll need to vent out his frustration over multiple alts. :roll:

[dankok8]

The OP was comparing Lebron's crunch-time stats in relation to Michael Jordan and they pale in comparison. It's in that context compared to Mike that he's terrible. Lebron is actually really good compared to other stars in crunch time. Oh and crunch time isn't game winners. It's the last 5 minutes of a game where the score is within 5 points. This is a way bigger sample size.

[Full Court]

Well, we saw all season how he would pad stats and then completely disappear in the 4th quarters of close games. That's a HUGE factor in why the pre-season favorite Lakers ended up in the lottery.

Of course, no AD, no playoffs too.

[3ba11]

MJ is #2 in scoring, game winners, mvp win shares, vorp, the list goes on

Seems like top 5 is good enough for him.


^^^ That's longevity crap - win shares and VORP are based on games played, but Jordan has 5 of the top 7 VORP seasons and leads WS/48

No one had better production rate (domination) than Jordan

And MJ is #1 in PPG by a mile... And all the production rate stats (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons, PPG, plus-minus, raptor (https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2021/IPef8B.gif))

[Spurs m8]

Well, we saw all season how he would pad stats and then completely disappear in the 4th quarters of close games. That's a HUGE factor in why the pre-season favorite Lakers ended up in the lottery.

Of course, no AD, no playoffs too.

This was 99.9% of last season.

And it was a pure joy to watch...Part of LeExposure

[Full Court]

There's something else that's pretty terrible too.

His finals win/loss stats. :lol

[Spurs m8]

There's something else that's pretty terrible too.

His finals win/loss stats. :lol

What about his turnovers?

And missed shots in the playoffs?

Where does he rank with these?

[Full Court]

What about his turnovers?

And missed shots in the playoffs?

Where does he rank with these?

:roll:

Great point.

Calling this guy top 5 is reeeaaaaaally a stretch.

[Baller789]

Lebron would be the actual GOAT if the games consisted of only 3 quarters.

But then again hed probably be known as the 3rd quarter choker.

[k0kakw0rld]

LeBron James nor Michael Jordan know of your existence. Y'all are out here tearing each other up for people who sleeps in mansions lol

Everybody stfu with this dumb debate. No one cares who's the goat or not. Jordan being the goat isn't paying anynones bills.

So please stop this nonsense, it's actually annoying.

[Spurs m8]

Lebron would be the actual GOAT if the games consisted of only 3 quarters.

But then again hed probably be known as the 3rd quarter choker.

The dude just can't handle pressure.

And his game is a fraud.

Literally worked out the art of stat padding...probably his greatest accomplishment tbh

Maybe one day he can work out the art of stat padding AND winning

[Full Court]

LeBron James nor Michael Jordan know of your existence. Y'all are out here tearing each other up for people who sleeps in mansions lol

Everybody stfu with this dumb debate. No one cares who's the goat or not. Jordan being the goat isn't paying anynones bills.

So please stop this nonsense, it's actually annoying.

It's a basketball forum...and you find people talking about who's the greatest basketball player of all time annoying. Ok....