Top 25 Small Forwards of All-Time Voting Part 3: Players 11-15

[L.Kizzle]

Select and rank the next five (players 11 through 15) of the greatest SMALL FORWARDS of All-Time. A 48 Hour window will be given to make your choices or debate why said player should or shouldn’t be here. After 48 Hours, the top five will be selected and another five will be added to the pool of players.


Players to Choose From:
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
Bernard King
Billy Cunningham
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Mullin
Cliff Hagan
George Yardley
Grant Hill
Jack Twyman
James Worthy
Joe Fulks
Marques Johnson
Paul Arizin
Paul Pierce


Top 25 Small Forwards: 1-10
1 LeBron James
2 Larry Bird
3 Kevin Durant
4 Julius Erving
5 Scottie Pippen
6 John Havlicek
7 Elgin Baylor
8 Rick Barry
9 Kawhi Leonard
10 Dominique Wilkins


Voting Results
Number of Voters - 13
Number of Players Receiving Votes - 10


John Havlicek (8) 1st Place Votes / (4) 3rd Place Votes / (1) 3rd Place Vote = 113 Points
Elgin Baylor (5) 1st Place Vote / (8) 2nd Place Votes / (1) 4th Place Vote = 99 Points
Rick Barry (1) 1st Place Vote / (1) 2nd Place Vote / (7) 4th Place Votes = 58 Points
Kawhi Leonard (4) 3rd Place Votes / (2) 4th Place Votes / (3) 5th Place Votes = 32 Points
Dominique Wilkins (2) 4th Place Vote / (3) 5th Place Vote = 9 Points
Paul Arizin (1) 1 4th Place Vote / (3) 5th Place Votes = 6 Points
Paul Pierce (1) 4th Place Vote / (2) 5th Place Votes = 5 Points
Grant Hill (1) 4th Place Vote = 3 Points
James Worthy (1) 5th Place Vote = 1 Point
Carmelo Anthony (1) 5th Place Vote = 1 Point


Voting Criteria
Five Seasons or more played in the NBA
1 = 10 Pts
2 = 7 Pts
3 = 5 Pts
4 = 3 Pts
5 = 1 Pt

Top-25-Small-Forwards-of-All-Time-Voting-Part-2-Players-6-10 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?487009-Top-25-Small-Forwards-of-All-Time-Voting-Part-2-Players-6-10)

[And1AllDay]

worthy
pierce
carmello anthony
bernard king
arizin

[┌∩┐(﹒︠益﹒︡)┌∩┐]

Pierce
Worthy
English
Dantley
Melo

[NBAGOAT]

I missed the last round.

Pierce
Worthy
English
Melo
Dantley

[3ball]

.
Scottie Pippen Historical Record


* 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals

* 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs, (17/7/5)

* 19 on 42% in 6 Finals overall (19/7/5)

* 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons...

* 16 on 40% in 2 Finals, 4 ECF, and the 7 game war in the 92' ECSF (destroyed by X-man)...

* 16/6/5 career average on weak efficiency

Pippen was worse than Paul George, but no one cared because it was enough for MJ to win.. Heck, if AD scored like that, the Lakers would've lost to Dame Dollar in the 1st Round.. So don't act like defense makes up for bad offense because AD is a better defender than Pippen..

Ultimately, only MJ could beat good teams with weak sidekick stats... most people aren't aware that lebron never won a Finals or beat a top 5 SRS team (good team), with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - so he never had a carry-job against a good team, whereas MJ beat 5 good teams including numerous Finals with 16 on 40% from Pippen... So only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams.

Anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's poor play that caused it - MJ never had a bad series, whereas you can see pippen's many bad series above.. and no one noticed or blamed pippen because he wasn't a real star, despite the accolades (winning spotlight inflation).. no one tracked his production (similar to a role player) because it was all about MJ..

MJ averaged 10-30 more than pippen in every series of their career, including the Finals... Compare to Lebron, who had 3 sidekicks match or exceed his scoring for entire playoff run!!! (11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, and 20' AD).. And he only averaged 2-5 more than sidekicks in his 4 successful Finals (10-20 for MJ).. Lebron's equal-scoring sidekicks attracted equal defensive attention, therefore making Lebron's stats easier.. Whereas MJ's carry-jobs faced 5-on-1 defense from his main rival, aka "Jordan Rules"... No comparison.

In addition to doubling pippen's scoring average, Jordan also averaged more assists - this includes 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside pippen, while assisting 33% more often (Jordan took more shots and can't assist on those shots, so his assist percentage was higher than Pippen's).. Finally, Jordan was 2nd for DPOY in 1993, while pippen didn't place.. Jordan got more dpoy votes than pippen every year except 96' and 97' (92' was a tie)..

in 1999, the Rockets had Pippen at 3rd option (more stacked than Bulls) but lost in the 1st Round (18 on 32% for pip).

Pippen was just lucky to play alongside MJ in a 2-star vs 2-star format of the 90's, where anyone wins alongside the goat - MJ would've needed more help in the 80's, where a literal super-team was required to win the 80's East.

Heck, Jordan pushed the Pistons to 6 games in 89' despite 10 on 40% from Pippen (who missed the last 2 games).. so he would've won the title that year with anyone OTHER than Pippen (no Phil either).. Certainly the FMVP and "Piston-killer" James Worthy could've replaced pippen's 10 ppg and beaten the Pistons from 88-91' alongside MJ... pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery..

Ultimately, pippen was nothing without the perfect setup - 7 years of grooming and a 3-peat strategy/system = 55 wins just like Lowry or Marc Gasol, aka everyone... And 2nd round embarrassment.. then he was a .500 bum the next year when the 3-peat luster was gone and the playoffs had exposed him

that was PEAK pippen.. he averaged 21 on 40% in the 2nd Round and destroyed by Ewing.. Kukoc had higher BPM in those playoffs, while grant/kukoc/bj had higher WS/48... Pippen simply wasn't a 1st option.... he was.... "a pippen"... Otoh, lebron needs juggernaut elite 1st option scorers as sidekicks - aka guys that can match an exceed him in scoring like 11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, or 20' AD.. aka juggernauts, not Paul George's

[┌∩┐(﹒︠益﹒︡)┌∩┐]

.
Scottie Pippen Historical Record


* 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals

* 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs, (17/7/5)

* 19 on 42% in 6 Finals overall (19/7/5)

* 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons...

* 16 on 40% in 2 Finals, 4 ECF, and the 7 game war in the 92' ECSF (destroyed by X-man)...

* 16/6/5 career average on weak efficiency

Pippen was worse than Paul George, but no one cared because it was enough for MJ to win.. Heck, if AD scored like that, the Lakers would've lost to Dame Dollar in the 1st Round.. So don't act like defense makes up for bad offense because AD is a better defender than Pippen..

Ultimately, only MJ could beat good teams with weak sidekick stats... most people aren't aware that lebron never won a Finals or beat a top 5 SRS team (good team), with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - so he never had a carry-job against a good team, whereas MJ beat 5 good teams including numerous Finals with 16 on 40% from Pippen... So only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams.

Anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's poor play that caused it - MJ never had a bad series, whereas you can see pippen's many bad series above.. and no one noticed or blamed pippen because he wasn't a real star, despite the accolades (winning spotlight inflation).. no one tracked his production (similar to a role player) because it was all about MJ..

MJ averaged 10-30 more than pippen in every series of their career, including the Finals... Compare to Lebron, who had 3 sidekicks match or exceed his scoring for entire playoff run!!! (11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, and 20' AD).. And he only averaged 2-5 more than sidekicks in his 4 successful Finals (10-20 for MJ).. Lebron's equal-scoring sidekicks attracted equal defensive attention, therefore making Lebron's stats easier.. Whereas MJ's carry-jobs faced 5-on-1 defense from his main rival, aka "Jordan Rules"... No comparison.

In addition to doubling pippen's scoring average, Jordan also averaged more assists - this includes 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside pippen, while assisting 33% more often (Jordan took more shots and can't assist on those shots, so his assist percentage was higher than Pippen's).. Finally, Jordan was 2nd for DPOY in 1993, while pippen didn't place.. Jordan got more dpoy votes than pippen every year except 96' and 97' (92' was a tie)..

in 1999, the Rockets had Pippen at 3rd option (more stacked than Bulls) but lost in the 1st Round (18 on 32% for pip).

Pippen was just lucky to play alongside MJ in a 2-star vs 2-star format of the 90's, where anyone wins alongside the goat - MJ would've needed more help in the 80's, where a literal super-team was required to win the 80's East.

Heck, Jordan pushed the Pistons to 6 games in 89' despite 10 on 40% from Pippen (who missed the last 2 games).. so he would've won the title that year with anyone OTHER than Pippen (no Phil either).. Certainly the FMVP and "Piston-killer" James Worthy could've replaced pippen's 10 ppg and beaten the Pistons from 88-91' alongside MJ... pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery..

Ultimately, pippen was nothing without the perfect setup - 7 years of grooming and a 3-peat strategy/system = 55 wins just like Lowry or Marc Gasol, aka everyone... And 2nd round embarrassment.. then he was a .500 bum the next year when the 3-peat luster was gone and the playoffs had exposed him

that was PEAK pippen.. he averaged 21 on 40% in the 2nd Round and destroyed by Ewing.. Kukoc had higher BPM in those playoffs, while grant/kukoc/bj had higher WS/48... Pippen simply wasn't a 1st option.... he was.... "a pippen"... Otoh, lebron needs juggernaut elite 1st option scorers as sidekicks - aka guys that can match an exceed him in scoring like 11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, or 20' AD.. aka juggernauts, not Paul George's


Why are you spamming? Is this allowed?

[Horatio33]

Pierce
Dantley
King
Melo
Worthy

[Phoenix]

Pierce
Melo
Worthy
Dantley
English

I don't know how to separate Dantley, English and King as I caught the tail end of all those guys but they seem to be roughly in the same ballpark. It does seem a bit weird not having Bernard in the top 15 but the SF position is crazy stacked.

[SouBeachTalents]

11. Pierce
12. Worthy
13. Carter
14. Carmelo
15. Hill

[NBAGOAT]

11. Pierce
12. Worthy
13. Carter
14. Carmelo
15. Hill

isnt vince a sg

[Phoenix]

isnt vince a sg

Yeah and he's not one of the available choices anyway. He has played a few seasons at SF( same as Tmac) but definitely belongs into the shooting guard list.

[L.Kizzle]

11. Pierce
12. Worthy
13. Carter
14. Carmelo
15. Hill

Vince Carter will be in the shooting guard voting.

[fsvr54]

James Worthy
Paul Arizin
Paul Pierce
Bernard King
Grant Hill

[tanibanana]

P. Pierce
P. Arizin
C. Anthony
J. Worthy
A. Dantley