MJ achieved his first top 5 offense with less help than Lebron did

[3ball]

09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage


So MJ achieved a top 5 offense with less offensive help

Don't be surprised.. that's how weak pippen was offensively (Mo Williams level)

and MJ's cast was destroyed by lebron's in BPM, WS/48, PER, and VORP

[3ball]

Btw, Mo led the NBA in 3-point makes per game in 2009, so Lebron had the best floor-spacer in the league

Mo that could create off-the-dribble and make jumpshots (mini-curry)

[Smoke117]

1-9

[Mauzah]

1-9 is a stupids man argument.

How many dynasties was Lebron apart of?

[Vino24]

MJ faces 10ppg Stockton. LeBron faced 4 all stars

[light]

LeBron went to the Finals in 2007 with far less help than Jordan did.

In fact, with the 2007 Cavs as a team and Mike Brown as head coach Jordan would not have even made the playoffs.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1-9 is a stupids man argument.

How many dynasties was Lebron apart of?

He is a dynasty. One of the greatest ever, at that.

[Hey Yo]

Btw, Mo led the NBA in 3-point makes per game in 2009, so Lebron had the best floor-spacer in the league

Mo that could create off-the-dribble and make jumpshots (mini-curry)
Mo shot 41% for the playoffs and his 3pt% dropped dramatically from the regular season.

Him shooting 37% in the series, combined with Orlando's light's out 3pt shooting was a big reason why Cavs lost.

[sdot_thadon]

LeBron went to the Finals in 2007 with far less help than Jordan did.

In fact, with the 2007 Cavs as a team and Mike Brown as head coach Jordan would not have even made the playoffs.

And 2018 finals as well.

[And1AllDay]

against? :oldlol: reggie miller? :oldlol:

[dankok8]

Highest Team ORtg Comparison MJ vs. Lebron - Top 10


1992 Bulls - 115.5 (+7.3)
1996 Bulls - 115.2 (+7.6)
1991 Bulls - 114.6 (+6.7)
1997 Bulls - 114.4 (+7.7)
2017 Cavs - 113.6 (+4.8)
1993 Bulls - 112.9 (+4.9)
2018 Cavs - 112.9 (+4.3)
2009 Cavs - 112.4 (+4.1)
1990 Bulls - 112.3 (+4.2)
2013 Heat - 112.3 (+6.4)


The numbers in brackets is the difference from league averages.

It's also telling that the 2017 and 2018 Cavs had exceptional offenses but at the expense of defense. Those teams were just awful defensively.

[3ball]

LeBron went to the Finals in 2007 with far less help than Jordan did.



The garbage 1-star teams that routinely won the 00's East could never win the 80's East (01' Sixers, 02' Nets, 03' Nets, 07' Cavs, 09' Magic)

a super-team with many HOF's was required to win the 80's East... heck, prime Jordan/Pippen would NOT have won the 80's East until 88'.






LeBron went to the Finals in 2007 with far less help than Jordan did.



Those Cavs were a 50-win, 2 seed that beat a 53-win, 1 seed... (#7 SRS beat a #6 SRS)..

so it was hardly an upset or a good opponent, and who cares about carry-jobs against weak teams?...

Lebron never beat a Finals team or any top 5 SRS team (good team) with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had a carry-job against a good team.. Otoh, MJ beat 5 good teams (including 2 Finals) with 15-16 ppg and 40% from Pippen.






In fact, with the 2007 Cavs as a team and Mike Brown as head coach Jordan would not have even made the playoffs.



Combo guards with spotty jumpshots like Hughes need to handle the ball and therefore need an elite-shooting teammate like Arenas to play off-the-ball at times.. that's why Hughes was great alongside an elite shooting off-guard like Arenas.

Unfortunately, Lebron lacks an elite shooting, off-ball skillset, so he reduced Hughes from Pippen-level (22/5/5 and 1st team defense), to rubble..

So those Cavs had a good roster because they had a pippen-like wing, a 2-time all-star center, another all-defender (varejao), a top 5 defense, and among best 3-point shooting in the league

[3ball]

Highest Team ORtg Comparison MJ vs. Lebron - Top 10


1992 Bulls - 115.5 (+7.3)
1996 Bulls - 115.2 (+7.6)
1991 Bulls - 114.6 (+6.7)
1997 Bulls - 114.4 (+7.7)
2017 Cavs - 113.6 (+4.8)
1993 Bulls - 112.9 (+4.9)
2018 Cavs - 112.9 (+4.3)
2009 Cavs - 112.4 (+4.1)
1990 Bulls - 112.3 (+4.2)
2013 Heat - 112.3 (+6.4)


The numbers in brackets is the difference from league averages.

It's also telling that the 2017 and 2018 Cavs had exceptional offenses but at the expense of defense. Those teams were just awful defensively.




Wow...

So Jordan had four #1 offenses that were the best ever, despite an often weak-scoring sidekick and no third option

Pippen was horrible in 96' and rodman didn't play on offense, yet the bulls had the #1 offense due to the scoring champ and league MVP (jordan)






2009 Cavs - 112.4 (+4.1)
1990 Bulls - 112.3 (+4.2)



^^^ the bulls had the superior offense despite getting less offensive help from their sidekick across the board, as the OP stats show

[And1AllDay]

LeBron went to the Finals in 2007 with far less help than Jordan did.

In fact, with the 2007 Cavs as a team and Mike Brown as head coach Jordan would not have even made the playoffs.

2ez

Another day :hammertime:

Another win :dancin :djparty
https://i.postimg.cc/CK9WwBPy/23to6to23.jpg

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


The 09' Cavs had the #3 defense

and offensively, 09' Mo > 90' Pippen across the board:


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage


So MJ achieved his first top 5 offense in 90' with less offensive help than lebron had in 09'

Don't be surprised.. that's how weak pippen was offensively (Mo Williams level)

And lebron's remaining cast destroyed jordan's in BPM, WS/48, PER, and VORP..

[Axe]

Funny how mo williams becomes a better player just because of that ortg.

[3ball]

Funny how mo williams becomes a better player just because of that ortg.

09' Mo led Pippen in BPM, PER, VORP, WS...... Literally everything

Ultimately, the 09' Cavs had the #3 defense and got 18 on 38% from Mo - Jordan never lost with that . And he actually beat the #1 SRS with 15 on 40% from Pippen in 89'

Only lebron lost 2 years in a row with 60-win, 1 seeds.. lebron and every other star lost 5+ times with 1 or 2 seeds.. Only mj is undefeated with 1 or 2 seeds

[Axe]

Except mo williams hasn't done anything without lebran

[3ball]

Except mo williams hasn't done anything without lebran

Before the "decision", lebron was just like Dwight, Iverson or Kidd with 1 Finals run in a weak conference

So Lebron never did anything special without multiple star teammates, or a teammate that outscores him (AD) - the star teammates elevate lebron to the championship just like he does them

And yes, Jordan had pippen.... But pippen is less than 2 stars or AD

[3ball]

Except mo williams hasn't done anything without lebran

Before the "decision", lebron was just like Dwight, Iverson or Kidd with 1 Finals run in a weak conference

So Lebron never did anything special without multiple star teammates, or a teammate that outscores him (AD) - the star teammates elevate lebron to the championship just like he does them

And yes, Jordan had pippen.... But pippen is less than 2 stars or AD

[Axe]

You don't need to say the very same thing twice. And berate pippen all day if you want but you can't deny that he still made the playoffs with other teams plus he made more without baldan than baldan did without him.

[StrongLurk]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread masked in truth, for the purpose of taking down Kareem, who people were calling the goat at the time on ISH

It basically backfired because even though I understand the "birdfed" narrative purported itt, my actual stance is the opposite.. guys who finish possessions control the game the most..

lebron and magic need these great iso scorers that can finish possessions like Kareem, Wade, Kyrie, Worthy or AD - elite 1st option juggernaut scorers... lebron/magic need guys to FINISH possessions.. I made a thread about their need.

Otoh, Jordan was the finisher for the Bulls - he was the juggernaut scorer and also the leading assist guy.

[FireDavidKahn]

1 player doesn't make a team.

Cavs team only had 3 people with a positive OBPM that year...

LeBron: 9.5
Mo: 2.4
West: 0.1

That's it.

The Bulls had:

MJ: 9.1
Grant: 1.3
Hodges: 1.2
Pippen 0.4

MJ had A LOT more help on offense then LeBron did.

[3ball]

1 player doesn't make a team.

Cavs team only had 3 people with a positive OBPM that year...

LeBron: 9.5
Mo: 2.4
West: 0.1

That's it.

The Bulls had:

MJ: 9.1
Grant: 1.3
Hodges: 1.2
Pippen 0.4

MJ had A LOT more help on offense then LeBron did.

^^^ Jordan's teammates had lower OBPM overall, while Mo doubled Jordan's 2nd option and was an actual scorer, not a rebounder like Horace..

so lebron had a scorer with legit obpm to take defensive attention away, while Jordan was the sole focus ("Jordan Rules")

[3ball]

.
.
"But Ingram was barely an all-star!"


20' Ingram..'..... 18.8 PER.. 2.4 BPM.. 0.115 WS/48.. 2.2 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP


And Pippen wasn't an all-star in 91'

Ultimately, Pippen has lower career BPM, PER, and WS/48 than Wade/AD/Kyrie - so lebron had 3 teammates that were bigger producers, but had zero #1 offenses...

and 90' Pippen was lower stats across the board than 20' Ingram, 05' Hughes, or 09' Mo

Again, that isn't "opinion" - it's the statistical record