Best Playoff Run: 2017 Durant vs 2019 Kawhi vs 2020 Lebron

[dankok8]

Serious thread. How would you rank the three runs? I might be biased as a Raptor fan but I'd say Kawhi's run was the most impressive. My Raps would have never tasted a sweet sweet championship without his heroics. But seriously he had by far the least help of the three.

[1987_Lakers]

1. 2020 LeBron - Ahead of the rest just because of his elite playmaking, could also score just as well as Kwahi & Durant if asked to, defense was also impressive throughout the postseason.

2. 2017 Durant - Insanely efficient, playing with Curry & Klay without a doubt opened things up for him, but Durant was an offensive juggernaut that year. Clearly the best pure scorer of the group.

3. 2019 Kawhi - Not as great defensively as his previous years, but an outstanding postseason run. I'm taking points away because his Finals was nothing special like the 2 above and his postseason numbers are a bit inflated due to playing 39 mpg compared to LeBron & Durant's 36 mpg.

[1987_Lakers]

I also think Kawhi's postseason run loses some steam after we saw how good Toronto was without him. Many saw the Raptors winning the championship as somewhat of a carry job by Kawhi, but that clearly wasn't the case as Toronto was a top 8 team without him.

[Gray GOAT]

1. LeBron James. I mean, it there any point in including this one? It's miles ahead of the other two.

2. Kevin Durant. Durant played very well, but was only able to do so because he joined a 73-win team. The Warriors would have won the championship regardless, since all they needed was a slight upgrade over Harrison Barnes. Durant never played at that level before Curry, Dray and Klay, and chances are he won't do it after.

3. Kawhi Leonard. Incredibly overrated run. It was good, very good, but it was overrated. For some inexplicable reason that run gets made out to be like it was a one man team. It was not. Lowry was undoubtedly the leader of the group and was terrific, Gasol was a monster in the paint, perhaps the best defender of the entire playoffs and great as a passer, Siakam blossomed and Fred VanVleet had moments where he couldn't miss. The Raptors were just a very good, very well coached team. Still, they wouldn't have won if not for major injuries, so there's another factor.

[SATAN]

OP dreams about LeBron.

[TheGoatest]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8_otW1UwAEAXrX.jpg

:oldlol:

He legit wasn't even the third best player on his team in the championship-clinching game.

It should definitely be considered as the luckiest playoff run ever though. First hits the luckiest shot in history against the Sixers and then faces a Warriors team without Durant and Klay.

[3ball]

1. 2020 LeBron - Ahead of the rest just because of his elite playmaking, could also score just as well as Kwahi & Durant if asked to, defense was also impressive throughout the postseason.

2. 2017 Durant - Insanely efficient, playing with Curry & Klay without a doubt opened things up for him, but Durant was an offensive juggernaut that year. Clearly the best pure scorer of the group.

3. 2019 Kawhi - Not as great defensively as his previous years, but an outstanding postseason run. I'm taking points away because his Finals was nothing special like the 2 above and his postseason numbers are a bit inflated due to playing 39 mpg compared to LeBron & Durant's 36 mpg.

Stfu

AD led the Lakers in scoring during the 20' Playoffs

By comparison, Kawhi and KD carried their team's scoring

And obviously, lebron's shared scoring loads don't compare to the goat

[SATAN]

Meltdown

[3ball]

Meltdown


I know you don't hear this on ESPN, but AD led the Lakers in scoring during the 20' Playoffs

By comparison, Kawhi and KD carried their team's scoring

And obviously, lebron's shared scoring loads don't compare to the goat

[3ball]

Imagine if pippen averaged 28 and Jordan 27 during a championship run, and then everyone saying Jordan was goat

not just better than pippen... But better than everyone ever, including a guy that averaged 10-30 more than every teammate for 6 rings

[SATAN]

Imagine if pippen averaged 28 and Jordan 27 during a championship run, and then everyone saying Jordan was goat

not just better than pippen... But better than everyone ever, including a guy that averaged 10-30 more than every teammate for 6 rings

There was no need for the quick edit. No one would actually care apart from MJ stans such as yourself. Do you even understand?

[Manny98]

Yh Kawhis help was so bad that they were the 2nd seed in the East without him and were on pace to win 60 games :facepalm

[Axe]

Kawhi had a great team when he was in the east. He didn't have to leave them just for the sake of going home.

[Axe]

Imagine if pippen averaged 28 and Jordan 27 during a championship run, and then everyone saying Jordan was goat

not just better than pippen... But better than everyone ever, including a guy that averaged 10-30 more than every teammate for 6 rings
And the point of this post is?

[Doranku]

1. Bran
2. Kawhi







3. KD

[8Ball]

2018 Bron still better than all dat.


2020 Bron tho

[StrongLurk]

2020 Lebron easily. KD was on the most stacked team of all time, Kawhi faced that "stacked" team without KD and Klay.

Lebron went through the most mentally straining playoff gauntlet of all time and showed he is still the best in the world.

[ELITEpower23]

1. Bran
2. Kawhi







3. KD

Co-signed

LeBron's 2020 playoffs run was another 30.0 PER run. KD and Kawhi have never done that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

19 Kawhi > 20 Bron > 17 KD

Had Davis not arguably been LA's best player, Bron gets the nod for #1. Obviously Durant is last with one of the easiest title's in history.

[1987_Lakers]

Stfu

AD led the Lakers in scoring during the 20' Playoffs

By a measly 2 points. :oldlol: We all know LeBron was the one running the offense. KD played with the greatest team of all time, & Kawhi's supporting cast made the semifinals without him. (Sound familiar? * Cough '94 Bulls)


Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)


:roll:

[dankok8]

2020 Lebron was comfortably the worst defensive player of the three of them. This somehow gets ignored. Still he has a case for #1 here due to his playmaking.

Honestly I think 2017 Durant can be argued as the best too. His team had the most dominant run so he was never really pushed to go to that fifth gear through the whole West playoffs. And in the Finals he was absolutely legendary putting up 35/8/5 on 70 %TS and outplaying Lebron. For all the hate on Durant and rightfully so you still have to praise the way he played.

[1987_Lakers]

I dont think it's fair to say LeBron was worse defensively of the 3, going by the eye test to me he was better defensively than Durant. He showed the ability to defend explosive guards and provided some rim protection, before the Finals it wasnt crazy to say LeBron was better defensively throughout the playoffs than AD.

In the end, the reason 2020 LeBron is ranked ahead of those guys is because he simply is a better basketball player, as good as KD and Kwahi were, when LeBron is playing his game he simply brings more to the table, his playmaking is what separates him.

[red1]

if we're ranking the ability of the players:

1. lebron 2020
2. kawhi 2019
3. durant 2017

[red1]

Serious thread. How would you rank the three runs? I might be biased as a Raptor fan but I'd say Kawhi's run was the most impressive. My Raps would have never tasted a sweet sweet championship without his heroics. But seriously he had by far the least help of the three.

2020 lebron would have destroyed every single team we would have gone up against.


2020 lebron would've shit on the sixers, giannis and the warriors without kd in kawhi's place.

[red1]

2018 Bron still better than all dat.


2020 Bron tho

2018 lebron >> 2019 kawhi

[dankok8]

I dont think it's fair to say LeBron was worse defensively of the 3, going by the eye test to me he was better defensively than Durant. He showed the ability to defend explosive guards and provided some rim protection, before the Finals it wasnt crazy to say LeBron was better defensively throughout the playoffs than AD.

In the end, the reason 2020 LeBron is ranked ahead of those guys is because he simply is a better basketball player, as good as KD and Kwahi were, when LeBron is playing his game he simply brings more to the table, his playmaking is what separates him.

Sorry no offense but it's downright crazy to say Lebron was better than AD defensively. It just isn't true. Lakers put AD on Butler. Lebron got torched on a few possessions that he defended him. For the entire playoffs:

Davis: 41.9 dFG%, -4.5 differential
Lebron: 43.7 dFG%, -2.0 differential

Davis held his matchups to much lower FG%. In terms of help defense he protected the paint and blocked more shots than Lebron. There is just no argument there for Lebron being better defensively.

Defensively Kawhi actually wasn't as good as I thought in those playoffs. The metrics don't support him being an elite defender and I don't remember him locking people up either. It's actually probably 2017 Durant > 2019 Kawhi > 2020 Lebron on defense.

Lebron is definitely the best basketball player of the three but 2020 Lebron isn't prime Lebron. If we're just gonna compare raw stats and give Lebron the edge because of 30 PER like some people on here are doing than we might as well look at the average DRtg of teams they faced. Kawhi faced the toughest competition in terms of defense and it isn't close.

This Lakers title erased people's memories in a way. Tons of people have been arguing for years that Durant and Kawhi have surpassed Lebron and now that Lebron won a title suddenly Lebron was the best all along? I never thought they surpassed Lebron but I'm not gonna go back and suddenly pretend that KD wasn't about as good as Lebron in 2017 and 2018 or that Kawhi wasn't better in 2019. Even when I think Lebron is better.

[SouBeachTalents]

This Lakers title erased people's memories in a way. Tons of people have been arguing for years that Durant and Kawhi have surpassed Lebron and now that Lebron won a title suddenly Lebron was the best all along? I never thought they surpassed Lebron but I'm not gonna go back and suddenly pretend that KD wasn't about as good as Lebron in 2017 and 2018 or that Kawhi wasn't better in 2019. Even when I think Lebron is better.
Tons of people? Nah. The majority of people still had LeBron over Durant when he was winning with Golden State, I do agree though that Kawhi had probably surpassed LeBron as the consensus after his title run & LeBron missing the playoffs last year. LeBron loses pretty much any BITW rights in 2019, but Durant, while obv a top 2-3 superstar in the league, definitely wasn't about as good as LeBron was. Swap them in 2018 and Durant loses in the first round

[1987_Lakers]

Sorry no offense but it's downright crazy to say Lebron was better than AD defensively. It just isn't true. Lakers put AD on Butler. Lebron got torched on a few possessions that he defended him.

Of course AD is better defensively, but before the Finals many people thought LeBron was playing better defensively in the playoffs, the Houston series is a great example, he outplayed AD defensively in that series.

[Phoenix]

Durant's performance should come with a caveat that he could afford to not have his A game, or even his B game, and still very likely win because of the potency of his team around him. Few superstars who are that historically great have that luxury. This is the same guy who choked the 3-1 lead the prior year. He may have improved a bit from 2016 to 2017 but the biggest leap was his team circumstances. The odds are incredibly long that if KD was off one game, that Steph/Klay/Dray wouldn't pick up the slack.

[dankok8]

Tons of people? Nah. The majority of people still had LeBron over Durant when he was winning with Golden State, I do agree though that Kawhi had probably surpassed LeBron as the consensus after his title run & LeBron missing the playoffs last year. LeBron loses pretty much any BITW rights in 2019, but Durant, while obv a top 2-3 superstar in the league, definitely wasn't about as good as LeBron was. Swap them in 2018 and Durant loses in the first round

Lebron's stranglehold on BITW was shaky in 2017 and 2018. I remember Stephen A. saying KD is the best in the world. I didn't agree with it but there were lots of people saying it. We don't know what would happen if you swap players plus that way of thinking ignores team fit. I think you can make a case that Lebron wouldn't mesh as well with the Warriors as Durant did.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron's stranglehold on BITW was shaky in 2017 and 2018. I remember Stephen A. saying KD is the best in the world. I didn't agree with it but there were lots of people saying it. We don't know what would happen if you swap players plus that way of thinking ignores team fit. I think you can make a case that Lebron wouldn't mesh as well with the Warriors as Durant did.

Not really. One of the things that bothered Durant was that the media and fans didnt crown him as the best player in the world after 2017, if you made a poll for best player in the world in the summer of 2017, LeBron would be on top. Durant for sure wasnt looked as the better player after 2018 the way LeBron dominated the postseason. 2019 was the first year where I seriously saw people take LeBron off their best player list and the funny thing is it took LeBron to get injured for that to happen. Now in 2020 LeBron is looked as the NBAs best player, LeBron may be past his prime, but he is so good that a past prime version of himself is still the best player in the world.

[jayfan]

Jimmy Butler 2020 > all of them


.

[dankok8]

Not really. One of the things that bothered Durant was that the media and fans didnt crown him as the best player in the world after 2017, if you made a poll for best player in the world in the summer of 2017, LeBron would be on top. Durant for sure wasnt looked as the better player after 2018 the way LeBron dominated the postseason. 2019 was the first year where I seriously saw people take LeBron off their best player list and the funny thing is it took LeBron to get injured for that to happen. Now in 2020 LeBron is looked as the NBAs best player, LeBron may be past his prime, but he is so good that a past prime version of himself is still the best player in the world.

Yea Lebron would win the poll in 2017 but it wouldn't be a blowout. Stephen A and Scottie Pippen IIRC both said KD was better. I don't wanna bother searching it on YT now but it's out there. I agree that Lebron may still be the best player in the world now.

[MadDog]

Kawhi
Durant
LeBron

Out of the three, it was LeBron who was the poorest on defense. And while LeBron might have been more efficient than Kawhi, BOTH Kawhi and Durant had BETTER adjusted box scores (+/- impact) and higher Value over Replacement. So the impact stats along with defense belong to Kawhi/KD while they ALSO had better half-court games (higher caliber jumpshooting). LeBron simply gets overrated because he is playing next to AD, the best bigman in the league.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hx7RRMvW/gghaga.png

[1987_Lakers]

Kawhi
Durant
LeBron

Out of the three, it was LeBron who was the poorest on defense. And while LeBron might have been more efficient than Kawhi, BOTH Kawhi and Durant had BETTER adjusted box scores (+/- impact) and higher Value over Replacement. So the impact stats along with defense belong to Kawhi/KD while they ALSO had better half-court games (higher caliber jumpshooting). LeBron simply gets overrated because he is playing next to AD, the best bigman in the league.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hx7RRMvW/gghaga.png

I never understood people who constantly use advanced stats in basketball, that stuff is more suited for baseball. The fact that Danny Green is #2 in on/off should tell you how flawed some of those stats can be, yet you see people constantly use them to prove a point.

[MadDog]

I never understood people who constantly use advanced stats in basketball, that stuff is more suited for baseball. The fact that Danny Green is #2 in on/off should tell you how flawed some of those stats can be, yet you see people constantly use them to prove a point.

Right, now advanced stats don't matter. :oldlol: LeBron fans champion these numbers like the Trump Team and an audit. Every stat has an anomaly. Look up every one that LeBron leads in and you will find a player that doesn't belong. Minutes, roles, lineups etc should always be taken into context. With every stat.

[ArbitraryWater]

I know KD is third.


Anyway, because Kawhi's defense tailed off a lot by then where as Bron's picked up this year, has to be Bron in a landslide, considering he was easily the better offensive player to begin with.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron's stranglehold on BITW was shaky in 2017 and 2018. I remember Stephen A. saying KD is the best in the world. I didn't agree with it but there were lots of people saying it. We don't know what would happen if you swap players plus that way of thinking ignores team fit. I think you can make a case that Lebron wouldn't mesh as well with the Warriors as Durant did.


Even Stephen A said more often than not LeBron was the best.

You might be thinking of Paul Pierce who got clowned for it after game 4 (2017 Finals).

LeBron had the greatest season in NBA history in 2018 and 2017 was close to that, so wasn't much shaky there

[MadDog]

Even Stephen A said more often than not LeBron was the best.

You might be thinking of Paul Pierce who got clowned for it after game 4 (2017 Finals).

LeBron had the greatest season in NBA history in 2018 and 2017 was close to that, so wasn't much shaky there

No he didn't. Nothing that actually matters will back your opinion.

[dankok8]

I know KD is third.


Anyway, because Kawhi's defense tailed off a lot by then where as Bron's picked up this year, has to be Bron in a landslide, considering he was easily the better offensive player to begin with.

Lebron was an average defender in the regular season then became above average in the playoffs while Kawhi was an elite defender in the regular season and dropped in the playoffs. Kawhi was still comfortably better on defense. It doesn't mean Lebron doesn't have a case over him because he does. He's a way better playmaker but defensively Kawhi >>

[1987_Lakers]

Right, now advanced stats don't matter. :oldlol: LeBron fans champion these numbers like the Trump Team and an audit. Every stat has an anomaly. Look up every one that LeBron leads in and you will find a player that doesn't belong. Minutes, roles, lineups etc should always be taken into context. With every stat.

I don't need to look at the stats, I actually watch the games.

[TheCorporation]

I don't need to look at the stats, I actually watch the games.

It's OVA

Vince Carter gif

[dankok8]

I don't need to look at the stats, I actually watch the games.

Agree with this but there is a caveat in that humans don't have the capacity to remember hundreds of plays for comparison purposes. Can you actually watch the game without counting their shots and tell me that one guy shot 45% and the other 50%. Of course not. Likewise you can't tell the ratio of good to bad defensive plays. That's why stats exist.

[TheGoatest]

I never understood people who constantly use advanced stats in basketball, that stuff is more suited for baseball. The fact that Danny Green is #2 in on/off should tell you how flawed some of those stats can be, yet you see people constantly use them to prove a point.

He used advanced stats, yet LeBron's PER (30.2), the main advanced stat, completely shyts on Kawhit's (27.9) and Durant's (27.5) in those playoff runs. :roll:
I also like how LeBron was somehow the worst defender of the three, yet had by far the best defensive box plus/minus.

[red1]

OP you're a raptors fan so you're obviously high IQ - it shouldnt take much analysis to realize that lebron >>>>>> durant and kawhi.

[Axe]

Jimmy Butler 2020 > all of them


.
:yaohappy:

[MadDog]

I don't need to look at the stats, I actually watch the games.

Everyone watches the games, but you don't look at stats? You're on some bullshit. :oldlol:

[MadDog]

He used advanced stats, yet LeBron's PER (30.2), the main advanced stat, completely shyts on Kawhit's (27.9) and Durant's (27.5) in those playoff runs. :roll:
I also like how LeBron was somehow the worst defender of the three, yet had by far the best defensive box plus/minus.

:oldlol: @ PER being "the main" advanced stat. It measures efficiency, but not impact. You guys use these numbers all the time yet don't even understand how they work :confusedshrug:

[SATAN]

Lebron's stranglehold on BITW was shaky in 2017 and 2018. I remember Stephen A. saying KD is the best in the world.

lol

[1987_Lakers]

:oldlol: @ PER being "the main" advanced stat. It measures efficiency, but not impact. You guys use these numbers all the time yet don't even understand how they work :confusedshrug:

Yet, that didn't stop you from using PER to prove a point in another thread....


Kemp had maybe 2 or 3 playoff runs definitely better than Butler this postseason. More points, more rebounds and better advanced stats if you look at PER and Box +/-. Nobody with a functioning brain is taking Butler over the majority of players listed in OP because he was NEVER better than them :oldlol: Leave it to deceitful LeBron fans though. Deception is in their nature.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486373-Jimmy-Butler-outscored-all-of-Mike-s-Finals-opponents/page2

Lets be real, by your logic PER only sucks if LeBron has an advantage over another player. Hypocrite.

[MadDog]

Yet, that didn't stop you from using PER to prove a point in another thread....


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486373-Jimmy-Butler-outscored-all-of-Mike-s-Finals-opponents/page2

Lets be real, by your logic PER only sucks if LeBron has an advantage over another player. Hypocrite.

I never said PER was useless, the end all be all or "the main" stat. :confusedshrug: So what does quoting that post prove?

[1987_Lakers]

I never said PER was useless, the end all be all or "the main" stat. :confusedshrug: So what does quoting that post prove?

You're not fooling anyone, your agenda is clear.

[dankok8]

PER is simply an aggregated stat that combines all the box score numbers and weighs them with arbitrary coefficients and is calibrated towards league average which is a PER of 15. It's not a useless stat but it's unnecessary for those who look at the whole boxscore. Same applies for other stuff like WS, WS/48, BPM, VORP etc.

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi is 1st here. Lakers didn't make the playoffs until they got Anthony Davis and he led the team in all stats on the season except assists and in WS, WS/PER 48 and even PPG in the playoffs.

[TheGoatest]

:oldlol: @ PER being "the main" advanced stat. It measures efficiency, but not impact. You guys use these numbers all the time yet don't even understand how they work :confusedshrug:

It's the main advanced stat for everyone. You're just mad that it doesn't fit your agenda here. :oldlol: @ Kawhi's impact when the Raptors were 17-5 in the games where the didn't play that season.

[TheCorporation]

Playoff Series wins before Davis joined LeBron

LeBron = 35
Davis = 1

Next

[aj1987]

Sorry no offense but it's downright crazy to say Lebron was better than AD defensively. It just isn't true. Lakers put AD on Butler. Lebron got torched on a few possessions that he defended him. For the entire playoffs:

Davis: 41.9 dFG%, -4.5 differential
Lebron: 43.7 dFG%, -2.0 differential

Davis held his matchups to much lower FG%. In terms of help defense he protected the paint and blocked more shots than Lebron. There is just no argument there for Lebron being better defensively.

Defensively Kawhi actually wasn't as good as I thought in those playoffs. The metrics don't support him being an elite defender and I don't remember him locking people up either. It's actually probably 2017 Durant > 2019 Kawhi > 2020 Lebron on defense.

Lebron is definitely the best basketball player of the three but 2020 Lebron isn't prime Lebron. If we're just gonna compare raw stats and give Lebron the edge because of 30 PER like some people on here are doing than we might as well look at the average DRtg of teams they faced. Kawhi faced the toughest competition in terms of defense and it isn't close.

This Lakers title erased people's memories in a way. Tons of people have been arguing for years that Durant and Kawhi have surpassed Lebron and now that Lebron won a title suddenly Lebron was the best all along? I never thought they surpassed Lebron but I'm not gonna go back and suddenly pretend that KD wasn't about as good as Lebron in 2017 and 2018 or that Kawhi wasn't better in 2019. Even when I think Lebron is better.
I thought you were a troll, but turns out you're just a massive idiot. Might even be 3ball's alt, judging by your posts and cherry picking.

You used DFG% to "prove" that AD was a better defender than LeBron? Do the same for KD and LeBron.

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -4.1%

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -3.4%

How about defensive On-Off?

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -10.8

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -2.2

Funny how you ignored the FACT that LeBron in 2017 dropped 34/12/10/1/1 on 63% TS (35/8/5/1/2 on 70% for KD) against the #2 defense, while going up against this elite defender in KD, DPOY Green, and Klay. Meanwhile, KD was doing this thing against the 21st ranked defense in the league.

Look at any other advanced metric for LeBron vs AD and you'll see that he beats him in pretty much everything else.

LeBron was a +15.3 for the 2020 Playoffs, BTW. Significantly better than KD.

As for Kawhi beating amazing defenses, he beat the Bucks who were the #1 defensive team. Magic? :roll:

The Warriors were 13th defensively and they were missing KD and Klay.

The Sixers were 15th defensively.

Lets not act like Kawhi was out there beating 4 top 5 defenses on his way to the title.

While we're throwing in a bit of context for children like you, the Rockets had, by far, the best defense in the bubble. LeBron only dropped 27/10/7/2/2 on 60% TS on them.

The Rockets has a 101.8 DRtg in the bubble. To put that number in perspective, the Bucks (#1 defense) had a DRtg of 102.9 in the RS. The #2 Clippers were at 107.6. The Rockets were #3 overall in the PO's as well.

If KD and Klay weren't injured, BTW, Kawhi would've gotten WAXED in the Finals.

Honestly, if you think LeBron was just "average" in the RS on the defensive end and just "above average" in the PO's, you haven't watched LeBron play at all this season. He should've arguably been All-Def second team this season.

Watch some tape, child:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYedgu-va3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCIiwO0i45w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0EOWEzL9jc

[ArbitraryWater]

i thought you were a troll, but turns out you're just a massive idiot. Might even be 3ball's alt, judging by your posts and cherry picking.

You used dfg% to "prove" that ad was a better defender than lebron? Do the same for kd and lebron.

Lebron dfg% in the 2020 playoffs - -4.1%

kd dfg% in the 2017 playoffs - -3.4%

how about defensive on-off?

Lebron dfg% in the 2020 playoffs - -10.8

kd dfg% in the 2017 playoffs - -2.2

funny how you ignored the fact that lebron in 2017 dropped 34/12/10/1/1 on 63% ts (35/8/5/1/2 on 70% for kd) against the #2 defense, while going up against this elite defender in kd, dpoy green, and klay. Meanwhile, kd was doing this thing against the 21st ranked defense in the league.

Look at any other advanced metric for lebron vs ad and you'll see that he beats him in pretty much everything else.

Lebron was a +15.3 for the 2020 playoffs, btw. Significantly better than kd.

As for kawhi beating amazing defenses, he beat the bucks who were the #1 defensive team. Magic? :roll:

The warriors were 13th defensively and they were missing kd and klay.

The sixers were 15th defensively.

Lets not act like kawhi was out there beating 4 top 5 defenses on his way to the title.

While we're throwing in a bit of context for children like you, the rockets had, by far, the best defense in the bubble. Lebron only dropped 27/10/7/2/2 on 60% ts on them.

The rockets has a 101.8 drtg in the bubble. To put that number in perspective, the bucks (#1 defense) had a drtg of 102.9 in the rs. The #2 clippers were at 107.6. The rockets were #3 overall in the po's as well.

If kd and klay weren't injured, btw, kawhi would've gotten waxed in the finals.

Honestly, if you think lebron was just "average" in the rs on the defensive end and just "above average" in the po's, you haven't watched lebron play at all this season. He should've arguably been all-def second team this season.

Watch some tape, child:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyedgu-va3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yciiwo0i45w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0eowezl9jc



MURKEd.

[houston]

1. LeBron James. I mean, it there any point in including this one? It's miles ahead of the other two.

2. Kevin Durant. Durant played very well, but was only able to do so because he joined a 73-win team. The Warriors would have won the championship regardless, since all they needed was a slight upgrade over Harrison Barnes. Durant never played at that level before Curry, Dray and Klay, and chances are he won't do it after.

3. Kawhi Leonard. Incredibly overrated run. It was good, very good, but it was overrated. For some inexplicable reason that run gets made out to be like it was a one man team. It was not. Lowry was undoubtedly the leader of the group and was terrific, Gasol was a monster in the paint, perhaps the best defender of the entire playoffs and great as a passer, Siakam blossomed and Fred VanVleet had moments where he couldn't miss. The Raptors were just a very good, very well coached team. Still, they wouldn't have won if not for major injuries, so there's another factor.

this a good post right here

[8Ball]

I thought you were a troll, but turns out you're just a massive idiot. Might even be 3ball's alt, judging by your posts and cherry picking.

You used DFG% to "prove" that AD was a better defender than LeBron? Do the same for KD and LeBron.

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -4.1%

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -3.4%

How about defensive On-Off?

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -10.8

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -2.2

Funny how you ignored the FACT that LeBron in 2017 dropped 34/12/10/1/1 on 63% TS (35/8/5/1/2 on 70% for KD) against the #2 defense, while going up against this elite defender in KD, DPOY Green, and Klay. Meanwhile, KD was doing this thing against the 21st ranked defense in the league.

Look at any other advanced metric for LeBron vs AD and you'll see that he beats him in pretty much everything else.

LeBron was a +15.3 for the 2020 Playoffs, BTW. Significantly better than KD.

As for Kawhi beating amazing defenses, he beat the Bucks who were the #1 defensive team. Magic? :roll:

The Warriors were 13th defensively and they were missing KD and Klay.

The Sixers were 15th defensively.

Lets not act like Kawhi was out there beating 4 top 5 defenses on his way to the title.

While we're throwing in a bit of context for children like you, the Rockets had, by far, the best defense in the bubble. LeBron only dropped 27/10/7/2/2 on 60% TS on them.

The Rockets has a 101.8 DRtg in the bubble. To put that number in perspective, the Bucks (#1 defense) had a DRtg of 102.9 in the RS. The #2 Clippers were at 107.6. The Rockets were #3 overall in the PO's as well.

If KD and Klay weren't injured, BTW, Kawhi would've gotten WAXED in the Finals.

Honestly, if you think LeBron was just "average" in the RS on the defensive end and just "above average" in the PO's, you haven't watched LeBron play at all this season. He should've arguably been All-Def second team this season.

Watch some tape, child:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYedgu-va3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCIiwO0i45w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0EOWEzL9jc

Ethered

[TheCorporation]

I thought you were a troll, but turns out you're just a massive idiot. Might even be 3ball's alt, judging by your posts and cherry picking.

You used DFG% to "prove" that AD was a better defender than LeBron? Do the same for KD and LeBron.

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -4.1%

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -3.4%

How about defensive On-Off?

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -10.8

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -2.2

Funny how you ignored the FACT that LeBron in 2017 dropped 34/12/10/1/1 on 63% TS (35/8/5/1/2 on 70% for KD) against the #2 defense, while going up against this elite defender in KD, DPOY Green, and Klay. Meanwhile, KD was doing this thing against the 21st ranked defense in the league.

Look at any other advanced metric for LeBron vs AD and you'll see that he beats him in pretty much everything else.

LeBron was a +15.3 for the 2020 Playoffs, BTW. Significantly better than KD.

As for Kawhi beating amazing defenses, he beat the Bucks who were the #1 defensive team. Magic? :roll:

The Warriors were 13th defensively and they were missing KD and Klay.

The Sixers were 15th defensively.

Lets not act like Kawhi was out there beating 4 top 5 defenses on his way to the title.

While we're throwing in a bit of context for children like you, the Rockets had, by far, the best defense in the bubble. LeBron only dropped 27/10/7/2/2 on 60% TS on them.

The Rockets has a 101.8 DRtg in the bubble. To put that number in perspective, the Bucks (#1 defense) had a DRtg of 102.9 in the RS. The #2 Clippers were at 107.6. The Rockets were #3 overall in the PO's as well.

If KD and Klay weren't injured, BTW, Kawhi would've gotten WAXED in the Finals.

Honestly, if you think LeBron was just "average" in the RS on the defensive end and just "above average" in the PO's, you haven't watched LeBron play at all this season. He should've arguably been All-Def second team this season.

Watch some tape, child:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYedgu-va3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCIiwO0i45w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0EOWEzL9jc

Blood bath

[Gougou]

The one thing devalued Kawhi playoff run is in the NBA finals Klay/KD were injured.

For some reason I actually think about Lebron is having a better run, he beat arguably the strongest 8th seed ever, a double MVP rocket team, and a stacked Denver team managed to beat the heavily favorite Clippers team. Also the condition is much more worse, no home court advantage, an unusual playstyle since majority of the players are having fatigues, haven't had training for months.

I mean just look at all the role players on the Lakers team missing so much shots and LBJ carried all of them.

[MadDog]

It's the main advanced stat for everyone. You're just mad that it doesn't fit your agenda here. :oldlol: @ Kawhi's impact when the Raptors were 17-5 in the games where the didn't play that season.

So "advanced" that it doesn't track impact. :confusedshrug: Unlike its counterparts. ESPN has an entire page dedicated to Advanced Plus Minus -- you might want to check that out before making another baseless claim. 17 Durant had greater box impact, period.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Idiotic question.

- Durant was on the goat team
-Anthony Davis led Lakers in scoring and win shares

[1987_Lakers]

Idiotic question.

- Durant was on the goat team
-Anthony Davis led Lakers in scoring and win shares

What was the Raptors record without Kawhi?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Idiotic question

- Durant was on the goat team and faced Aldridge in west finals

- Anthony Davis led Lakers in scoring and win shares

Obvious answer: Kawhi

Its not even close.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What was the Raptors record without Kawhi?

Lowry/Siakam in 2018: 4 playoff wins
Rondo/Davis in 2018: 5 playoff wins

[1987_Lakers]

Lowry/Siakam in 2018: 4 playoff wins
Rondo/Davis in 2018: 5 playoff wins

Raptors won more playoff series in 2018 & 2020 without Kwahi than Davis did in his entire career before he joined LeBron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lowry/Siakam in 2018: 4 playoff wins
Rondo/Davis in 2018: 5 playoff wins
Lowry/Siakam in 2020: 7 playoff wins
Kawhi on the 2020 title favorite: 7 playoff wins, blown 3-1 lead and WOAT Game 7

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Raptors won more playoff series in 2018 & 2020 without Kwahi than Davis did in his entire career before he joined LeBron.

They beat Brooklyn nets led by g leaguers

Davis/Rondo swept Lillard and LeBron wasn't even playing

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lowry/Siakam in 2020: 7 playoff wins
Kawhi on the 2020 title favorite: 7 playoff wins, blown 3-1 lead and WOAT Game 7

Luka and Tatum are similar 21 year old superstars

Kawhi eliminated Luka and had zero help

Lowry/Siakam got eliminated by Tatum

[Phoenix]

Idiotic question

- Durant was on the goat team and faced Aldridge in west finals

- Anthony Davis led Lakers in scoring and win shares

Obvious answer: Kawhi

Its not even close.



Yep, beating the fully healthy Warriors makes Kawhi the obvious choice.

Oh wait.....

[dankok8]

I thought you were a troll, but turns out you're just a massive idiot. Might even be 3ball's alt, judging by your posts and cherry picking.

You used DFG% to "prove" that AD was a better defender than LeBron? Do the same for KD and LeBron.

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -4.1%

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -3.4%

How about defensive On-Off?

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -10.8

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -2.2

Funny how you ignored the FACT that LeBron in 2017 dropped 34/12/10/1/1 on 63% TS (35/8/5/1/2 on 70% for KD) against the #2 defense, while going up against this elite defender in KD, DPOY Green, and Klay. Meanwhile, KD was doing this thing against the 21st ranked defense in the league.

Look at any other advanced metric for LeBron vs AD and you'll see that he beats him in pretty much everything else.

LeBron was a +15.3 for the 2020 Playoffs, BTW. Significantly better than KD.

As for Kawhi beating amazing defenses, he beat the Bucks who were the #1 defensive team. Magic? :roll:

The Warriors were 13th defensively and they were missing KD and Klay.

The Sixers were 15th defensively.

Lets not act like Kawhi was out there beating 4 top 5 defenses on his way to the title.

While we're throwing in a bit of context for children like you, the Rockets had, by far, the best defense in the bubble. LeBron only dropped 27/10/7/2/2 on 60% TS on them.

The Rockets has a 101.8 DRtg in the bubble. To put that number in perspective, the Bucks (#1 defense) had a DRtg of 102.9 in the RS. The #2 Clippers were at 107.6. The Rockets were #3 overall in the PO's as well.

If KD and Klay weren't injured, BTW, Kawhi would've gotten WAXED in the Finals.

Honestly, if you think LeBron was just "average" in the RS on the defensive end and just "above average" in the PO's, you haven't watched LeBron play at all this season. He should've arguably been All-Def second team this season.

Watch some tape, child:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYedgu-va3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCIiwO0i45w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0EOWEzL9jc

Look at this Einstein here comparing dFG% between players on different teams playing different opponents. You mean to tell me that KD couldn't defend Lebron as well as Lebron could defend Tyler Herro? That's a revelation. The Lebron vs. AD comparison wasn't perfect either but at least they played the same opponents and even switched on same guys to defend them so it's most informative.

Or how about the fact that those Warriors were blowing people out by 20 points in two thirds of their games and didn't bother playing D. You think when the Warriors are up 30 on some sorry ass team in the 3rd quarter that KD is gonna starting clamping down on whoever he is guarding? The 2017 and 2018 Finals were high octane offensive series. No one was playing tight D for most of it. You're one who should maybe go and watch some footage. That's why most people don't take statistics at face value. Most smart people anyways.

I watched plenty of Lebron this year (after Raptors watched the most Lakers and Clippers games) and he is a defensive liability at times during games. He comes back and makes an impressive play here and there but he's FAR from an All-Defensive Team player. Believe me if he was anywhere near that level he would be getting the accolades on reputation alone. Lebron over the course of an entire game is an average defensive player.

If Klay was healthy all series... if KD was healthy... I don't give a rat's ass. Lebron couldn't avoid getting swept by that team the year before. Why would Kawhi be expected to beat them to win this comparison?

[SouBeachTalents]

Luka and Tatum are similar 21 year old superstars

Kawhi eliminated Luka and had zero help

Lowry/Siakam got eliminated by Tatum
Kawhi needed 6 games to beat Luka as the colossal favorite with Porzingis missing half the series

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi needed 6 games to beat Luka as the colossal favorite with Porzingis missing half the series

You got the context wrong...

Kawhi was missing his starting PG Beverly all series, Porzingis stole a win, Hardaway averaged .7 less PPG then Paul George, Boban destroyed Harrell every second on court together.

Kawhi still eliminated all nba first team Luka in 6 games.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Even Boban was shitting on Montrezl Harrell hahahha

Do you understand now why he can't guard Jokic? Must be nice to have roid head Dwight on your side.

[Phoenix]

https://images.spot.im/v1/production/bu38fwtrnrw9pamxja8s

[8Ball]

Even Boban was shitting on Montrezl Harrell hahahha

Do you understand now why he can't guard Jokic? Must be nice to have roid head Dwight on your side.

Roid head Dwight is a minimum contract that nobody else in the league wanted. Yet LeBron turned him into gold.

[MadDog]

Roid head Dwight is a minimum contract that nobody else in the league wanted. Yet Davis turned him into gold.

FTFY. There's a new sheriff in town, and his initials are "AD" Get used to it, LeBron fans. :oldlol:

[8Ball]

We love AD.

We also going for Ibaka too this off season. :lol

And we gonna send for Giannis in 2021 if we don't get Ibaka. Being a LeBron fan pays dividends.

[aj1987]

Look at this Einstein here comparing dFG% between players on different teams playing different opponents. You mean to tell me that KD couldn't defend Lebron as well as Lebron could defend Tyler Herro? That's a revelation. The Lebron vs. AD comparison wasn't perfect either but at least they played the same opponents and even switched on same guys to defend them so it's most informative.
What are you babbling about, dude? KD's numbers were for the entire PO run. Not just the Finals. As are the numbers for LeBron. Also, if you think LeBron was primarily guarding Herro, you need to go back and rewatch the Finals. He was guarding multiple players throughout the Finals including and not limited to Herro, Duncan, Butler, Bam, etc.. Again, KD in 2017 wasn't a better defender than LeBron in 2020. It's just a fact. :confusedshrug:


Or how about the fact that those Warriors were blowing people out by 20 points in two thirds of their games and didn't bother playing D. You think when the Warriors are up 30 on some sorry ass team in the 3rd quarter that KD is gonna starting clamping down on whoever he is guarding? The 2017 and 2018 Finals were high octane offensive series. No one was playing tight D for most of it. You're one who should maybe go and watch some footage. That's why most people don't take statistics at face value. Most smart people anyways.
Bruh. Quit it. You're just spewing nonsense to try to reiterate your nonsensical post. How many minutes do you think KD played when the Warriors were up 30, compared to a game within reach? You're going to find that the second scenario is gonna be over 95% of his total minutes played and those garbage time minutes won't even move his defensive stats much.

With that being said, you are literally admitting that KD wasn't playing defense because they were "high octane offensive series". If that's the case, how is he a better defender than 2020 LeBron, when LeBron was shutting down players constantly in the Playoffs? I've even provided you footage to watch and I'm pretty sure that most of the Finals game are online somewhere to watch.

Also, you are the one who brought up the stats and I'm using the stats that YOU used to prove that your arguments are stupid. Now you want to completely disregard stats? Well, go watch the footage. I posted that as well. :cheers:


I watched plenty of Lebron this year (after Raptors watched the most Lakers and Clippers games) and he is a defensive liability at times during games. He comes back and makes an impressive play here and there but he's FAR from an All-Defensive Team player. Believe me if he was anywhere near that level he would be getting the accolades on reputation alone. Lebron over the course of an entire game is an average defensive player.
Were you high when you watched the games? LeBron was absolutely an ELITE defensive player this season. If you actually watched the games this season and think otherwise, you absolutely have no idea how basketball work or you're just trolling right about now.

You can even go back and find threads on here from people who are not particularly LeBron fans, but were calling him an elite defender this past season.

:oldlol: @ LeBron being a defensive liability or an average defender. I've posted footage and stats to backup my claim. You should try to do the same.


If Klay was healthy all series... if KD was healthy... I don't give a rat's ass. Lebron couldn't avoid getting swept by that team the year before. Why would Kawhi be expected to beat them to win this comparison?
You're using that Finals as somewhat of an impressive achievement. Replace Kawhi on that team with any good player and the Raptors still beat that Warriors team missing Klay and KD. Heck, 2020 LeBron would've probably swept them. Kawhi in the Finals was pretty good, but he was nowhere close to 2020 LeBron or 2017 KD.

LeBron didn't get swept by the same team. The 2018 Warriors were healthy and much better than the 2019 Warriors. A healthy Warriors team would've eviscerated Kawhi.

[TheCorporation]

Lowry/Siakam in 2020: 7 playoff wins
Kawhi on the 2020 title favorite: 7 playoff wins, blown 3-1 lead and WOAT Game 7

Yikes

:dancin

[dankok8]

What are you babbling about, dude? KD's numbers were for the entire PO run. Not just the Finals. As are the numbers for LeBron. Also, if you think LeBron was primarily guarding Herro, you need to go back and rewatch the Finals. He was guarding multiple players throughout the Finals including and not limited to Herro, Duncan, Butler, Bam, etc.. Again, KD in 2017 wasn't a better defender than LeBron in 2020. It's just a fact. :confusedshrug:


Bruh. Quit it. You're just spewing nonsense to try to reiterate your nonsensical post. How many minutes do you think KD played when the Warriors were up 30, compared to a game within reach? You're going to find that the second scenario is gonna be over 95% of his total minutes played and those garbage time minutes won't even move his defensive stats much.

With that being said, you are literally admitting that KD wasn't playing defense because they were "high octane offensive series". If that's the case, how is he a better defender than 2020 LeBron, when LeBron was shutting down players constantly in the Playoffs? I've even provided you footage to watch and I'm pretty sure that most of the Finals game are online somewhere to watch.

Also, you are the one who brought up the stats and I'm using the stats that YOU used to prove that your arguments are stupid. Now you want to completely disregard stats? Well, go watch the footage. I posted that as well. :cheers:


Were you high when you watched the games? LeBron was absolutely an ELITE defensive player this season. If you actually watched the games this season and think otherwise, you absolutely have no idea how basketball work or you're just trolling right about now.

You can even go back and find threads on here from people who are not particularly LeBron fans, but were calling him an elite defender this past season.

:oldlol: @ LeBron being a defensive liability or an average defender. I've posted footage and stats to backup my claim. You should try to do the same.


You're using that Finals as somewhat of an impressive achievement. Replace Kawhi on that team with any good player and the Raptors still beat that Warriors team missing Klay and KD. Heck, 2020 LeBron would've probably swept them. Kawhi in the Finals was pretty good, but he was nowhere close to 2020 LeBron or 2017 KD.

LeBron didn't get swept by the same team. The 2018 Warriors were healthy and much better than the 2019 Warriors. A healthy Warriors team would've eviscerated Kawhi.

Lebron is absolutely underwhelming on defense. Anyone who watches him on the court will see that he is very inconsistent in his effort. In the 2020 Finals, Butler was beating him to the rim almost at will. In fact there has been many Finals series that Lebron hasn't done an admirable job on defense.. See 2014 Finals when Kawhi lit him up, 2017 and 2018 when KD lit him up, this year's Finals when Butler lit him up. If you claim that he didn't defend those players a lot of the time then that means he didn't take on the toughest defensive tasks. You can't run away from this argument.

And it's kind of hilarious that you accuse me of ignoring stats when I'm the one who posted the stats that overwhelmingly show that Lebron is the worst of these 3 players defensively. And it really shouldn't make anyone raise their eyebrows because the eye test confirms it. KD was widely considered a defensive anchor on the 2017 Warriors. Kawhi we obviously know what a beast he is on defense... Lebron makes 1 or 2 flashy plays and then lets guys beat him to the rim effortlessly at times. That's not being a great defender because he defends 75-80 possessions in a typical game not just 1 or 2...

[aj1987]

Lebron is absolutely underwhelming on defense. Anyone who watches him on the court will see that he is very inconsistent in his effort.
Yeah, you haven't watched a minute of LeBron play this past season. Either that, or you have absolutely ZERO knowledge about basketball, other than throwing buzz words out there.


In the 2020 Finals, Butler was beating him to the rim almost at will.
Except for the FACT that LeBron barely guarded Butler in the first 5 games. He took it upon himself in G6 and completely shut him down. However, Butler hit some ridiculous shots over LeBron. Over everyone, TBH.


n fact there has been many Finals series that Lebron hasn't done an admirable job on defense.. See 2014 Finals when Kawhi lit him up, 2017 and 2018 when KD lit him up, this year's Finals when Butler lit him up. If you claim that he didn't defend those players a lot of the time then that means he didn't take on the toughest defensive tasks. You can't run away from this argument.
This is the same ****ing autistic argument we have all the time. LeBron guards and slows down KD in the 2017 Finals, but Curry or Klay go OFF and everyone has a bitch fit about how LeBron couldn't guard Klay or Curry or how he was scared to guard them. If Robinson or Herro went off this Finals with LeBron on Butler, LeBron haters would have a meltdown about how LeBron was scared to guard them. We've seen this dozens of times.

Look at his teams. Arguably the best defensive teams he was on were the Heat one. They had a lot of good defensive players. Wade could slow down or shut down players. Bosh was good, when he wasn't guarding bigs or asked to protect the rim. Battier, Chalmers, etc.. Jordan had a ton of ELITE defensive players. Grant, Harper, Rodman, Pippen, etc.. LeBron, since 2015, never had too many good defenders on his team until this season and it showed.


And it's kind of hilarious that you accuse me of ignoring stats when I'm the one who posted the stats that overwhelmingly show that Lebron is the worst of these 3 players defensively.
You literally cherry picked a single stat, while ignoring every single other stat. You used a stat to "prove" AD was a better defender than LeBron and according to the SAME stat, LeBron was a better defender in 2020, than KD was in 2017. Stop embarrassing yourself, child.

Lets look at more stats, shall we.

LeBron James Defensive RPM in 2020 - 3.81 (good for #3 in the league)

Kevin Durant Defensive RPM in 2017 - -0.50 (good for #323 in the league) :roll: :roll:

LeBron James DWS in 2020 - 1.2 (good for #3 in the league)

Kevin Durant DWS in 2017 - 0.9 (good for #4 in the league)

LeBron James DBPM in 2020 - 3.0 (good for #4 in the league)

Kevin Durant DBPM in 2017 - 1.7 (good for #19 in the league)

Any way you look at it LeBron has been better than 2017 KD. Heck, replace 2017 KD with 2020 LeBron and LeBron sweeps the Cavs.

BTW, I just went back and read your earlier posts, and you haven't used a SINGLE metric or stat to show that KD was a better defender than 2020 LeBron. Hot the L and move on, kid.


This isn't an argument you'll win.


And it really shouldn't make anyone raise their eyebrows because the eye test confirms it. KD was widely considered a defensive anchor on the 2017 Warriors. Kawhi we obviously know what a beast he is on defense... Lebron makes 1 or 2 flashy plays and then lets guys beat him to the rim effortlessly at times. That's not being a great defender because he defends 75-80 possessions in a typical game not just 1 or 2...
What kinda crack are you smoking? :roll: :roll:

KD was the defensive anchor on the 2017 Warriors and it was widely considered that he was? Dude, this is beyond pathetic. The First Team All-Defense and Defensive Player Of the Year Draymond Green wasn't the defensive anchor on that team, huh? You do realize that Durant never even made an All-Defense team, right? Yeah, somehow KD was the anchor on the 2017 Warriors over Green. This literally just PROVES that you're talking out of your ass.

Try watching basketball sometime and try understanding how basketball works, instead of spewing bullshit. You just might enjoy it.

[And1AllDay]

Yeah, you haven't watched a minute of LeBron play this past season. Either that, or you have absolutely ZERO knowledge about basketball, other than throwing buzz words out there.


Except for the FACT that LeBron barely guarded Butler in the first 5 games. He took it upon himself in G6 and completely shut him down. However, Butler hit some ridiculous shots over LeBron. Over everyone, TBH.


This is the same ****ing autistic argument we have all the time. LeBron guards and slows down KD in the 2017 Finals, but Curry or Klay go OFF and everyone has a bitch fit about how LeBron couldn't guard Klay or Curry or how he was scared to guard them. If Robinson or Herro went off this Finals with LeBron on Butler, LeBron haters would have a meltdown about how LeBron was scared to guard them. We've seen this dozens of times.

Look at his teams. Arguably the best defensive teams he was on were the Heat one. They had a lot of good defensive players. Wade could slow down or shut down players. Bosh was good, when he wasn't guarding bigs or asked to protect the rim. Battier, Chalmers, etc.. Jordan had a ton of ELITE defensive players. Grant, Harper, Rodman, Pippen, etc.. LeBron, since 2015, never had too many good defenders on his team until this season and it showed.


You literally cherry picked a single stat, while ignoring every single other stat. You used a stat to "prove" AD was a better defender than LeBron and according to the SAME stat, LeBron was a better defender in 2020, than KD was in 2017. Stop embarrassing yourself, child.

Lets look at more stats, shall we.

LeBron James Defensive RPM in 2020 - 3.81 (good for #3 in the league)

Kevin Durant Defensive RPM in 2017 - -0.50 (good for #323 in the league) :roll: :roll:

LeBron James DWS in 2020 - 1.2 (good for #3 in the league)

Kevin Durant DWS in 2017 - 0.9 (good for #4 in the league)

LeBron James DBPM in 2020 - 3.0 (good for #4 in the league)

Kevin Durant DBPM in 2017 - 1.7 (good for #19 in the league)

Any way you look at it LeBron has been better than 2017 KD. Heck, replace 2017 KD with 2020 LeBron and LeBron sweeps the Cavs.

BTW, I just went back and read your earlier posts, and you haven't used a SINGLE metric or stat to show that KD was a better defender than 2020 LeBron. Hot the L and move on, kid.


This isn't an argument you'll win.


What kinda crack are you smoking? :roll: :roll:

KD was the defensive anchor on the 2017 Warriors and it was widely considered that he was? Dude, this is beyond pathetic. The First Team All-Defense and Defensive Player Of the Year Draymond Green wasn't the defensive anchor on that team, huh? You do realize that Durant never even made an All-Defense team, right? Yeah, somehow KD was the anchor on the 2017 Warriors over Green. This literally just PROVES that you're talking out of your ass.

Try watching basketball sometime and try understanding how basketball works, instead of spewing bullshit. You just might enjoy it.

glad to see you back aj :cheers:

always slaying these noobs

[And1AllDay]

I thought you were a troll, but turns out you're just a massive idiot. Might even be 3ball's alt, judging by your posts and cherry picking.

You used DFG% to "prove" that AD was a better defender than LeBron? Do the same for KD and LeBron.

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -4.1%

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -3.4%

How about defensive On-Off?

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -10.8

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -2.2

Funny how you ignored the FACT that LeBron in 2017 dropped 34/12/10/1/1 on 63% TS (35/8/5/1/2 on 70% for KD) against the #2 defense, while going up against this elite defender in KD, DPOY Green, and Klay. Meanwhile, KD was doing this thing against the 21st ranked defense in the league.

Look at any other advanced metric for LeBron vs AD and you'll see that he beats him in pretty much everything else.

LeBron was a +15.3 for the 2020 Playoffs, BTW. Significantly better than KD.

As for Kawhi beating amazing defenses, he beat the Bucks who were the #1 defensive team. Magic? :roll:

The Warriors were 13th defensively and they were missing KD and Klay.

The Sixers were 15th defensively.

Lets not act like Kawhi was out there beating 4 top 5 defenses on his way to the title.

While we're throwing in a bit of context for children like you, the Rockets had, by far, the best defense in the bubble. LeBron only dropped 27/10/7/2/2 on 60% TS on them.

The Rockets has a 101.8 DRtg in the bubble. To put that number in perspective, the Bucks (#1 defense) had a DRtg of 102.9 in the RS. The #2 Clippers were at 107.6. The Rockets were #3 overall in the PO's as well.

If KD and Klay weren't injured, BTW, Kawhi would've gotten WAXED in the Finals.

Honestly, if you think LeBron was just "average" in the RS on the defensive end and just "above average" in the PO's, you haven't watched LeBron play at all this season. He should've arguably been All-Def second team this season.

Watch some tape, child:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYedgu-va3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCIiwO0i45w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0EOWEzL9jc

this
ones
done

:cheers:

[dankok8]

@aj1987

Lebron didn't slow down anybody. He either spends time defending Kawhi, KD and Butler in which case he's been getting torched since the 2014 Finals or he's not guarding them meaning he's dodging the match-up. You can't have it both ways because those players absolutely beasted putting up TS of 75%, 70%, 65% and 65% respectively. That's insane. Those guys were scoring at WILL on Lebron's teams while playing Lebron's position. He was either defending them incredibly poorly or dodging the match-up.

Prime Lebron was a really good defender circa 2009-2013... Since 2014... nah... He's had flashes but he's not a consistent defensive force anymore which his lack of All-Defensive accolades and DPOY finishes show pretty clearly. Either me or all the coaches and the GM's and members of the media are wrong... OR YOU'RE WRONG. Ask yourself which is more likely.

As for KD on the Warriors being a great defender, don't take my word for it. One of those articles is Draymond himself saying KD should win the DPOY.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21359160/kevin-durant-gone-great-lengths-become-top-defender

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/13/17005976/kevin-durant-defense-dpoy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/

You can stick to DBPM and DWS which measures defensive impact based on box score metrics. Against different match-ups to begin with. Those numbers mean absolutely nothing and you know it and yet you keep arguing because you dug yourself a hole.

Your supposed defensive beast was part of terrible defensive teams where guys playing his positions put up all-time great series... Not a good look.

[kawhileonard2]

Yh Kawhis help was so bad that they were the 2nd seed in the East without him and were on pace to win 60 games :facepalm

And the Lakers won 16 titles as well.

And the U.S never won bronze before in basketball with guys who were in the NBA while Lebron was on two of those teams.:facepalm:facepalm:facepalm

[aj1987]

Lebron didn't slow down anybody.
Yeah, you haven't watched a minute of basketball in your entire life and it's painfully obvious.


..

This is the same ****ing autistic argument we have all the time. LeBron guards and slows down KD in the 2017 Finals, but Curry or Klay go OFF and everyone has a bitch fit about how LeBron couldn't guard Klay or Curry or how he was scared to guard them. If Robinson or Herro went off this Finals with LeBron on Butler, LeBron haters would have a meltdown about how LeBron was scared to guard them. We've seen this dozens of times.

How were those great defenders doing versus LeBron, BTW?

LeBron in the 2014 NBA Finals - 28/8/4 on 68% TS%

LeBron in the 2017 NBA Finals - 34/12/10/1/1 on 63% TS%

LeBron in the 2018 NBA Finals - 34/9/10/1/1 on 62% TS%

LeBron absolutely roasted them. This was with LeBron going up against great defensive teams, BTW. Whi



self saying KD should win the DPOY.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21359160/kevin-durant-gone-great-lengths-become-top-defender

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/13/17005976/kevin-durant-defense-dpoy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/
You're a ****ing idiot. All the coaches and GM's are correct when LeBron didn't get an All-Def selection since 2014, but somehow, they're conveniently all wrong when it comes to Green making the All-Defensive First team and winning the DPOY? Make up your mind, kid.

You literally called KD the Warriors' defensive anchor when Green was the DPOY and All-Def First Team. You're wrong and you just can't admit it, so you're coming up with these retarded arguments.

Also, this debate is about LeBron this season vs KD 2017 defensively. As I said, LeBron finally has good defensive players around him and it showed. LeBron was absolutely elite this season defensively.

Since you brought up LeBron's lack of an All-Def selection, can you point out the season when KD made one? I'll wait.

The defensive anchor on the #2 defensive team in the league should've at least made ONE All-Defensive team, right?

How about DPOY votes in 2017? He surely must have gotten at least ONE vote, right? :roll:

LeBron was #5 in the DPOY voting in 2017. KD? He didn't get a single vote. :roll:

So, I guess the Coaches and GM's do agree with me.

FYI, those articles are from the 2018 season. Not the 2017 one. The season when the Warriors fell from the #2 defense (with Green at the helm) to #11 with KD "anchoring the defense".

You're a clown.


You can stick to DBPM and DWS which measures defensive impact based on box score metrics. Against different match-ups to begin with. Those numbers mean absolutely nothing and you know it and yet you keep arguing because you dug yourself a hole.
Jesus Christ! You're dumber than 3ball, if that's possible.

Those two aren't the only stats I used. I used DFG% as well, which shows LeBron was a better defender.

I used defensive On-Off numbers, which shows that LeBron was better defender.

I used DRPM, which shows LeBron was the better defender.

I even posted footage for you, which you've completely ignored and are now resorting to repeating yourself with the same nonsensical bullshit.


Your supposed defensive beast was part of terrible defensive teams where guys playing his positions put up all-time great series... Not a good look.

And the supposed better defenders in KD and Kawhi let LeBron drop 34/10/10/1/1 on 63% TS% (over two straight Finals) and 28 PPG on 68% TS% on their domes. So, you're supposed better defensive players weren't doing any better. :confusedshrug:

As for the bad defensive teams, try reading and watching basketball, instead of shitposting:

Look at his teams. Arguably the best defensive teams he was on were the Heat one. They had a lot of good defensive players. Wade could slow down or shut down players. Bosh was good, when he wasn't guarding bigs or asked to protect the rim. Battier, Chalmers, etc.. Jordan had a ton of ELITE defensive players. Grant, Harper, Rodman, Pippen, etc.. LeBron, since 2015, never had too many good defenders on his team until this season and it showed.

The Cavs had absolutely terrible defenders. Irving was dog shit defensively and Love was equally bad. Those two dude played a combined 70 minutes a game. Your teams is not going to be any good defensively, if the majority of the team is bad defensively.

What happened to the Warriors' defense in '18 and '19, BTW? They were 11th and 13th in the league. KD was good defensively, but he wasn't close to being the anchor. Green was and there's a reason why he was getting Rodman comparisons and got voted as the DPOY.

[Hey Yo]

https://images.spot.im/v1/production/bu38fwtrnrw9pamxja8s

https://awfulannouncing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/94/2014/06/Brian-Windhorst.jpg

[1987_Lakers]

Calling Durant a defensive anchor in 2017 is a bit odd. LeBron was also pretty good defensively in 2020, far from a liability.

[dankok8]

You know someone is a clown when they say Lebron slowed down KD in 2017... Dude was putting up 35.2 ppg on 69.8 %TS... that's just BONKERS. Let me guess. But supposedly Lebron was playing great defense on Durant.

This guy also can't seem to grasp that there is a big gap between making All-Defensive teams and being an average or above average defender. KD being better defensively than Lebron doesn't mean he has to win DPOY. There is a big gap between Lebron's defense since 2014 and DPOY level. Durant in Golden State was a very good defensive player. Maybe the article I posted is from 2018... ok. It doesn't diminish what I'm trying to say. You should know that KD blocked 1.6 and 1.8 shots per game in 2017 and 2018 which is no joke. Lebron never sniffed those numbers. It doesn't mean that Durant is a better defender than peak Lebron obviously but at that point in time Durant was a better defender than Lebron since 2014.

I never once said Durant was better than Green on defense but he did anchor (or help anchor if that suits you better) the Warriors defense and was very good on that end of the floor. Putting words in my mouth doesn't mean you're winning the argument. I never claimed those things.

Again let's address the obvious...

A great defensive player should be able to make a difference and shut down the biggest offensive threat on the other team or alternatively be able to shut down the paint and stop easy shots from the other team period. Lebron hasn't been doing either. Davis on the other hand has done both of those (slowing down Butler) and protecting the paint (blocking and changing shots at the rim) better than Lebron. And it's not particularly close either. KD also protected the paint in his GS days better than Lebron does.

As for Lebron's stats in 2014, 2017 and 2018 Finals a lot of them came in garbage time with his team down huge. Particularly for the 2014 Finals, you won't find many praising Lebron's performance despite his 28/8/4 on 68% TS statline. His cramps arguably cost the Heat Game 1 and his impact Game 3 through 5 was non-existent. After the 2011 Finals, 2014 is probably the most criticism Lebron gets and there is a reason for that. Getting blown out by record margin isn't a good look and is not being able to stop anyone on defense... But again not stopping people on defense is Lebron's modus operandi since 2014. Is he playing poor defense or simply dodging the harder match-ups and saving energy for offense? The bottom line is he doesn't bring it.

[aj1987]

KD also protected the paint in his GS days better than Lebron does.

Jeez! You're beyond autistic. I'll take this one point at a time.

1. Point out to where I said LeBron was slowing down KD in 2017.

2. You said KD was "widely" considered the defensive anchor on the 2017 Warriors. Prove it.

3. You can't be a defensive anchor on the #2 defense and not even make an All-Def team.

4. Blocks and steals =/= good defense. Iverson averaged 2.4 steals over 9 seasons. He wasn't a good defender.

5. According to your "logic" (or the lack of it), Ben Wallace and Hakeem were not great defenders because Shaq had his way with them.

6. LeBron was the one who completely shut down Butler in G6, but don't let that fact get in the way of your autistic ramblings.

7. KD was never a great defender. 2020 LeBron was better defensively than 2017 KD and that's a statistical FACT. Tons of footage as well.

As for 2020 LeBron vs 2020 KD defensively:

LeBron DFG% in the 2020 Playoffs - -4.1%

KD DFG% in the 2017 Playoffs - -3.4%

How about defensive On-Off?

LeBron Defensive On-Off in the 2020 Playoffs - -10.8

KD Defensive On-Off in the 2017 Playoffs - -2.2

LeBron James Defensive RPM in 2020 - 3.81 (good for #3 in the league)

Kevin Durant Defensive RPM in 2017 - -0.50 (good for #323 in the league)

LeBron James DWS in 2020 - 1.2 (good for #3 in the league)

Kevin Durant DWS in 2017 - 0.9 (good for #4 in the league)

LeBron James DBPM in 2020 - 3.0 (good for #4 in the league)

Kevin Durant DBPM in 2017 - 1.7 (good for #19 in the league)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYedgu-va3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCIiwO0i45w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0EOWEzL9jc



...
Do I have to teach basketball to you like you're 4 years old? You have the intelligence of one. Wait, toddlers are smarter than you.

Look at his teams. Arguably the best defensive teams he was on were the Heat one. They had a lot of good defensive players. Wade could slow down or shut down players. Bosh was good, when he wasn't guarding bigs or asked to protect the rim. Battier, Chalmers, etc.. Jordan had a ton of ELITE defensive players. Grant, Harper, Rodman, Pippen, etc.. LeBron, since 2015, never had too many good defenders on his team until this season and it showed.

The Cavs had absolutely terrible defenders. Irving was dog shit defensively and Love was equally bad. Those two dude played a combined 70 minutes a game. Your teams is not going to be any good defensively, if the majority of the team is bad defensively.

The '14 Heat had atrocious defenders as well. Wade was straight up trash defensively and Bosh was Bosh.

From a previous post of mine about the 2014 Finals:

LeBron 2014

LeBron only played like 6 minutes a game in the 4th Q's and scored only ~3.5 points. Did his scoring in the first 3 Q's when the games were still within ~15 points. If a player tries to score when a team in trailing by 15 with a quarter and a half of basketball, it's stat padding, because apparently the game is already a blowout.

For instance, in his insane and absolutely retarded rambling, he fails to acknowledge the FACT that LeBron brought the Heat back to within 13 with like 8 minutes to go in the 3rd. That's when others started missing and the Spurs went on a 7-0 run.

Game 1 - LeBron single handedly kept the Heat in the game and the minute he goes out, Miami gets blown out. 2 point game with LeBron on the court. The moment he sits, the Spurs go on a 16-3 run in a span of about four minutes. As I said, without LeBron the Heat got torched by the Spurs.

Game 2 - LeBron plays an incredible game and CB comes through in the Clutch with the late 3. Miami barely win though. Even though Bosh came through in the clutch, dude was terrible (as was Wade) and let Duncan destroy him.

Game 3 - LeBron was terrible in the 4th without question. No excuses. Unlike you, I can admit when a player is terrible, you braindead retard.

Game 5 - So, according to you, LeBron was stat padding when he was trying to score midway through the 3rd with the Heat down 15, but he should’ve scored more with the Heat down 19 going into the 4th? You really do not understand what the term stat padding means, do you? Anyways, TP completely wrecked the Heat in the 4th Q that game. The Heat were never able to get closer than 16 and couldn’t get a stop defensively.

LeBron puts up 28 PPG on 68% TS and the Heat get blown out.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs were the overwhelming favorites to win the Finals. The Heat regressed offensively and defensively from the previous season and was terrible defensively.


You have YET to make a single valid basketball argument. You're only argument is: "lebron is a defensive liability!!!11 kd better!!!1".

Try to back up your statements with FACTS, moron.

It's like hearing an autistic kid scream.

[aj1987]

Calling Durant a defensive anchor in 2017 is a bit odd. LeBron was also pretty good defensively in 2020, far from a liability.

Nah, LeBron was a liability because he didn't make the All-Def team. KD was the best defensive player on the team with All-Def First Team and DPOY Green. Don't let the facts gets in the way of your feelings. :roll:

[dankok8]

I'm not going back and forth with this guy anymore. He quotes singular phrases out of context from my posts and calls me names when he's the one who calls blocks and steals useless for measuring defense (I would use the term inadequate...) then proceeded to use a bunch of stats which he clearly doesn't understand or likes to pretend that I don't know what they are. The man clearly doesn't understand the concepts of sample size and representative samples either. Dude is literally comparing KD's numbers against teams A B C and D to Lebron's numbers against teams E F G and H and he doesn't see any problem with that. Nor does he realize he did say Lebron slowed down KD in the 2017 Finals.

I'm done here. That's what the ignore list is for!

I just ask everyone... why should we ignore in the context of Lebron's defense that in the 4 of the past 6 Finals his matchups have put up staggeringly productive series. Namely Kawhi in 2014, Durant in 2017 and 2018 and Butler in 2020. Those teams as a whole torched his teams as well. Why should that be ignored?

[aj1987]

I'm not going back and forth with this guy anymore. He quotes singular phrases out of context from my posts and calls me names when he's the one who calls blocks and steals useless for measuring defense (I would use the term inadequate...) then proceeded to use a bunch of stats which he clearly doesn't understand or likes to pretend that I don't know what they are. The man clearly doesn't understand the concepts of sample size and representative samples either. Dude is literally comparing KD's numbers against teams A B C and D to Lebron's numbers against teams E F G and H and he doesn't see any problem with that. Nor does he realize he did say Lebron slowed down KD in the 2017 Finals.

I'm done here. That's what the ignore list is for!

I just ask everyone... why should we ignore in the context of Lebron's defense that in the 4 of the past 6 Finals his matchups have put up staggeringly productive series. Namely Kawhi in 2014, Durant in 2017 and 2018 and Butler in 2020. Those teams as a whole torched his teams as well. Why should that be ignored?

Ignoring the rest of your autistic ramblings (again!), point out to where I said that.

You lost and you're having a bitch fit now. You literally posted nonsensical drivel and couldn't back up ANYTHING. You called KD the defensive anchor on the 2017 Warriors and when I called you out on it, you posted links from the 2018 season.

You bring up players dropping numbers against LeBron led teams, but you also ignore the FACT that LeBron dropped equal or even better numbers on the domes of the players who you consider to be better defenders than LeBron. You just don't get it, do you? That fact that you think LeBron was the reason why KD got his numbers, but completely disregard the FACT that LeBron dropped 34/10/10/1/1 on 63% TS% on KD is just mindbogglingly insane.

Then, there's the FACT that you used DFG% to "prove" AD was a better defender than LeBron, but completely disregard the EXACT same stat for 2017 KD and 2020 LeBron.

Fun Fact: Bruce Bowen (who people consider an ATG defender) averaged 0.8 steals and 0.4 blocks a games when he made his 5 All-Defensive First Teams. Allen Iverson averaged 2.4 steals and 0.2 blocks a game for the first 9 seasons of his career. I guess that settles the debate of who the better defender between the two is. Retard. :roll:

Run along, retard. Basketball discussion isn't for you. Just the fact that you think steals and blocks are a good indicator of defense, proves everything I've been saying about you. You're Ralph Wiggum level retarded. Go stick crayons up your nose. That's more your speed.

[dankok8]

Bro stop posting. You're embarrassing yourself. I already put you on ignore. If you were actually respectful maybe I would continue this pointless debate... BTW you really should get banned for your antics.

[aj1987]

Bro stop posting. You're embarrassing yourself. I already put you on ignore. If you were actually respectful maybe I would continue this pointless debate... BTW you really should get banned for your antics.

This little maggot cuck lost and now he's crying to get me banned? Straight up bitchmade. Worse than Warriorfan :roll: :roll: