Top 25 Shooting Guards of All-Time Voting Part 1: Players 1-5

[L.Kizzle]

We have now moved on to the SHOOTING GUARD position.
A total of 26 SFs received votes. Of those 26, we came up with the Top 25 Small Forwards of All-Time.

Select and rank the five greatest SHOOTING GUARDS of All-Time. A 48 Hour window will be given to make your choices or debate why said player should or shouldn’t be here. After 48 Hours, the top five will be selected and another five will be added to the pool of players.


Players to Choose From:
[FYI, JERRY WEST will be listed as a POINT GUARD unless someone can persuade me that he should be listed as a shooting guard. Basketball-Reference list him as a PG for 12 of his 14 seasons.]

Allen Iverson
Clyde Drexler
Dwyane Wade
Earl Monroe
George Gervin
Hal Greer
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan
Pistol Pete Maravich
Ray Allen
Reggie Miller
Sam Jones
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter

-----

Top 25 SMALL FORWARDS of All-Time as voted on by ISH
1 LeBron James
2 Larry Bird
3 Kevin Durant
4 Julius Erving
5 Scottie Pippen
6 John Havlicek
7 Elgin Baylor
8 Rick Barry
9 Kawhi Leonard
10 Dominique Wilkins
11 Paul Pierce
12 James Worthy
13 Carmelo Anthony
14 Paul Arizin
14 Adrian Dantley
16 Alex English
17 Bernard King
18 Grant Hill
19 Chris Mullin
20 Paul George
21 Billy Cunningham
22 Jimmy Butler
23 Jack Twyman
24 Mark Aguirre
25 George Yardley


Voting Results
Number of Voters - 1
Number of Players Receiving Votes - 5


Billy Cunningham (1) 1st Place Vote = 10 Points
Jimmy Butler (1) 2nd Place Vote = 7 Points
Jack Twyman (1) 3rd Place Vote = 5 Points
Mark Aguirre (1) 4th Place Vote = 3 Points
George Yardley (1) 5th Place Vote = 1 Point


Voting Criteria
Five Seasons or more played in the NBA
1 = 10 Pts
2 = 7 Pts
3 = 5 Pts
4 = 3 Pts
5 = 1 Pt

Top-25-Small-Forwards-of-All-Time-Voting-Part-5-Players-21-25 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?487149-Top-25-Small-Forwards-of-All-Time-Voting-Part-5-Players-21-25)

[1987_Lakers]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. James Harden

[TheCorporation]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kove Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. James Harden

Almost spot on

[L.Kizzle]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. James Harden
No Jerry West. Read OP.

[L.Kizzle]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kove Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. James Harden

Almost spot on
No Jerry West. Read OP.

[1987_Lakers]

Thing is, back in the 60's point guard & shooting guard wasn't a thing, you were just a guard so those basketballreference positions are BS.

West is widely considered a shooting guard by basketball fans and media, seems kind of weird to have him as a PG just because basketballreference has him listed there.

[Phoenix]

Out of interest, how do you go about picking the players? Case in point, why isn't Joe Dumars listed yet? Not saying he's top 5 obviously or even top 10, but there's 15 names above and he's not one of them. What criteria are you using?

[Charlie Sheen]

[FYI, JERRY WEST will be listed as a POINT GUARD unless someone can persuade me that he should be listed as a shooting guard. Basketball-Reference list him as a PG for 12 of his 14 seasons.]



As long as I've been on ISH, Jerry West has been ranked as a SG. It just doesn't feel right to place him with the pg's now.

1 Jordan
2 Kobe
3 West
4 Wade
5 Iverson

If you really wont let us put west as a sg

Ray Allen is my 5th

[Charlie Sheen]

Out of interest, how do you go about picking the players? Case in point, why isn't Joe Dumars listed yet? Not saying he's top 5 obviously or even top 10, but there's 15 names above and he's not one of them. What criteria are you using?
OP has said for other positions write ins are cool if you support it with more than a name drop. He has to cut it off somewhere though. If It's not Dumars then it's gonna be what about Manu?

[L.Kizzle]

Thing is, back in the 60's point guard & shooting guard wasn't a thing, you were just a guard so those basketballreference positions are BS.

West is widely considered a shooting guard by basketball fans and media, seems kind of weird to have him as a PG just because basketballreference has him listed there.
I do agree with that.
But they have Gail Goodrich listed as SG.
So somebody was something, a PG or a SG. You get my drift.
And they both can't be under the same position as they played in the same backcourt for half of their careers.

[L.Kizzle]

Out of interest, how do you go about picking the players? Case in point, why isn't Joe Dumars listed yet? Not saying he's top 5 obviously or even top 10, but there's 15 names above and he's not one of them. What criteria are you using?
It's just a gut feeling I go with. Joe will be on the next 5.
Manu, Richmond aren't listed yet as well.

Funny thing is I literally just switched Joe D for Pistol Pete before I made the official post, lol.

I only put 15 every time out. After 5 get selected, 5 more get added.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Jordan
Kobe
West
Wade
Harden

West should be listed as a SG. In cases where there is some ambiguity BRref just corresponds height to position. For instance the shortest person is the PG, the 2nd is the SG, 3rd Sf etc... Example: It has LeBron James as a PF for the 2012-13, despite the fact that it was shane battier who guarded 4s throughout the year simply because LeBron is taller and bigger than him.

[Phoenix]

OP has said for other positions write ins are cool if you support it with more than a name drop. He has to cut it off somewhere though. If It's not Dumars then it's gonna be what about Manu?

Yep Manu would be another one. I understand there has to be a cut off, I'm just asking what criteria is he applying. Especially when someone may pick a player they feel warrants a spot and the vote is invalidated because they weren't on the list yet.

[Phoenix]

It's just a gut feeling I go with. Joe will be on the next 5.
Manu, Richmond aren't listed yet as well.

Funny thing is I literally just switched Joe D for Pistol Pete before I made the official post, lol.

I only put 15 every time out. After 5 get selected, 5 more get added.

Yes, in the spirit of our conversation a few days ago about Mitch I was gonna mention his name too but Joe stood out immediately to me.

[L.Kizzle]

As long as I've been on ISH, Jerry West has been ranked as a SG. It just doesn't feel right to place him with the pg's now.

1 Jordan
2 Kobe
3 West
4 Wade
5 Iverson

If you really wont let us put west as a sg

Ray Allen is my 5th
Lakers backcourt from 1971-1974
Jerry West assist from 1971-1974. 10 ast, 10 ast, 9 ast, 7 ast
Gail Goodrich asst from 1971-1974. 5 ast, 5 ast, 4 ast, 5 ast

West was top 10 in assist 11 of his 14 seaaons.

Someone was a shooting guard and someone was a point guard.

[L.Kizzle]

Jordan
Kobe
West
Wade
Harden

West should be listed as a SG. In cases where there is some ambiguity BRref just corresponds height to position. For instance the shortest person is the PG, the 2nd is the SG, 3rd Sf etc... Example: It has LeBron James as a PF for the 2012-13, despite the fact that it was shane battier who guarded 4s throughout the year simply because LeBron is taller and bigger than him.
Here the thing, (not saying you're wrong), if Jerry West is a SG, then what is his backcourt mate Gail Goodrich? He's listed as a SG as well?
Somebody had to be the PG (ball handler, distributor) back then.

[Phoenix]

When was the concept of PG and SG officially a thing? I look at West as a combo guard, just as I see Harden as a combo guard( hes his teams primary scorer while also being its primary facilitator) even though he's considered a SG. Think he was formally listed at PG in 2017 IIRC.

[L.Kizzle]

When was the concept of PG and SG officially a thing? I look at West as a combo guard, just as I see Harden as a combo guard( hes his teams primary scorer while also being its primary facilitator) even though he's considered a SG. Think he was formally listed at PG in 2017 IIRC.
Not sure. This comes from Gail Goodrich Wikipedia page.

"Goodrich held out in the fall of 1975 and missed the first four games while playing out his option to become a free agent the following season. In the 1975–76 season, Goodrich switched roles, becoming the "playmaking" guard rather than the "shooting guard", switching spots with Lucius Allen. Goodrich had played a similar role in Phoenix, but during his time with Jerry West, Goodrich was the shooting guard. Ironically, Allen was the shooting guard when he played with Oscar Robertson on the champion Milwaukee Bucks team. So, both were familiar with the roles. According to a Long Beach newspaper, the switch worked and "did wonders for a slumping Laker team". That same season the Lakers had acquired Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to upgrade the center position from previous center Elmore Smith."

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Here the thing, (not saying you're wrong), if Jerry West is a SG, then what is his backcourt mate Gail Goodrich? He's listed as a SG as well?
Somebody had to be the PG (ball handler, distributor) back then.

What is Mario Chalmers playing with Dwyane Wade and LeBron? What is john paxson with pippen and MJ?

Better yet, what is Chris Paul playing with James Harden?

[L.Kizzle]

What is Mario Chalmers playing with Dwyane Wade and LeBron? What is john paxson with pippen and MJ?
Gail Goodrich is a 25 ppg Hall of Famer who led the 72 championship Lakers in scoring, not the same thing.

[Phoenix]

What is Mario Chalmers playing with Dwyane Wade and LeBron? What is john paxson with pippen and MJ?

Paxson is an interesting case. He brought the ball up alot then basically went off the ball and waited for any spot up opportunities. He certainly didnt facilitate the offense. The triangle didn't really utilize the PG spot in a traditional sense anyway. Technically Ron Harper was the PG in the 2nd 3peat but he certainly wasn't the offensive quarterback.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Gail Goodrich is a 25 ppg Hall of Famer who led the 71 championship Lakers in scoring, not the same thing.

How so? If anything that's a point in my favor. Since you would still call Chalmers and Paxson PGs even though they were less prominent than Goodrich.

Also, there are other examples of high-level PGs playing with other players who get more assists. You would still call them PGs. Kyrie Irving with LeBron James, Paul with Harden, Westbrook with Harden.

[L.Kizzle]

Paxson is an interesting case. He brought the ball up alot then basically went off the ball and waited for any spot up opportunities. He certainly didnt facilitate the offense. The triangle didn't really utilize the PG spot in a traditional sense anyway. Technically Ron Harper was the PG in the 2nd 3peat but he certainly wasn't the offensive quarterback.

Some people don't even consider Steph Curry a PG.
Some offenses like the triangle, you're just a PG by choice.

And someone mentioned Harden who had the ball in his hand the majority of the time his team is on offense and even brings up the ball. But a lot of SG and SF (wings) have been doing that since the 80s. I mean some seasons, Drexler would avg more assist than Terry Porter. Grant leads his team in points, assist and rebounds. So is he a point guard (assist) and a center (rebounds) as well?

[L.Kizzle]

How so? If anything that's a point in my favor. Since you would still call Chalmers and Paxson PGs even though they were less prominent than Goodrich.

Also, there are other examples of high-level PGs playing with other players who get more assists. You would still call them PGs. Kyrie Irving with LeBron James, Paul with Harden, Westbrook with Harden.
I thought you were comparing them by level of play. I'm like Chalmers is not in Gail's ballpark lol.

[Phoenix]

Anyways we can spend 5 pages alone on this topic so here's my vote based on West being a PG:

MJ
Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Harden

For the record if West was considered a SG for this thread I would have him 3rd.

[RRR3]

West is always considered a SG doe.


1. Jordan
2. Bean
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden

[Phoenix]

Some people don't even consider Steph Curry a PG.
Some offenses like the triangle, you're just a PG by choice.

And someone mentioned Harden who had the ball in his hand the majority of the time his team is on offense and even brings up the ball. But a lot of SG and SF (wings) have been doing that since the 80s. I mean some seasons, Drexler would avg more assist than Terry Porter. Grant leads his team in points, assist and rebounds. So is he a point guard (assist) and a center (rebounds) as well?

I look at Curry as a combo guard as well. Not that what I think on the topic matters lol but yeah,same deal as Harden ( I was the one mentioning him earlier). Modern guards are being given the dual responsibility of dropping 25-30 a game plus facilitating the offense. Its blurring the lines.

[L.Kizzle]

I look at Curry as a combo guard as well. Not that what I think on the topic matters lol but yeah,same deal as Harden ( I was the one mentioning him earlier). Modern guards are being given the dual responsibility of dropping 25-30 a game plus facilitating the offense. Its blurring the lines.
But how is it blurring the lines when it's always been done?
Oscar, West, Jordan, Drexler, Kobe, etc. The best guards can
usually always do a little bit of both.

You have the rare exception with guards like Stockton (super disturbotor) or Gervin (super offense.) The most part your best PGs can score (Tony Archibald, Westbrook) and your best SGs and dish the Rock (McGrady, Wade.)

[RRR3]

Just count West, Kiz. We’re all used to him being classified as a 2.

[L.Kizzle]

I will officially list West as a SG.

Why can't I edit OP anymore?

[1987_Lakers]

I will officially list West as a SG.

Why can't I edit OP anymore?

You only have a few minutes to edit a post. After around 5-10 minutes or so, you can't edit.

[RRR3]

You only have a few minutes to edit a post. After around 5-10 minutes or so, you can't edit.
It’s insane how much worse Jeff has made this forum since I joined :lol

[L.Kizzle]

You only have a few minutes to edit a post. After around 5-10 minutes or so, you can't edit.
Damn, what the hell. I guess it was meant to be, lol.

[Phoenix]

But how is it blurring the lines when it's always been done?
Oscar, West, Jordan, Drexler, Kobe, etc. The best guards can
usually always do a little bit of both.

You have the rare exception with guards like Stockton (super disturbotor) or Gervin (super offense.) The most part your best PGs can score (Tony Archibald, Westbrook) and your best SGs and dish the Rock (McGrady, Wade.)

Someone like Harden has literally played an entire season of PG. Jordan didn't( he had that stretch in 89). Neither has Kobe or Drexler. Iverson has played full seasons of PG( he started as a PG, so did Wade for that matter). It wasnt meant as a blanket statement. But I dont consider someone like MJ a combo guard in the same way I do Harden.

[Phoenix]

You have 15 minutes to edit before you're locked in. I'd like to have West 3rd in my list if hes being considered a SG now.

[Manny98]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden

[L.Kizzle]

Someone like Harden has literally played an entire season of PG. Jordan didn't( he had that stretch in 89). Neither has Kobe or Drexler. Iverson has played full seasons of PG( he started as a PG, so did Wade for that matter). It wasnt meant as a blanket statement. But I dont consider someone like MJ a combo guard in the same way I do Harden.
They may not technically play that position but they can do it all, is what I mean.
Jerry Stackhouse can't do what Clyde or Kobe or MJ can do. He can score like them but not facilitate. Some of the best SG can facilitate as good as some of the best PG.

[Phoenix]

They may not technically play that position but they can do it all, is what I mean.
Jerry Stackhouse can't do what Clyde or Kobe or MJ can do. He can score like them but not facilitate. Some of the best SG can facilitate as good as some of the best PG.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying those guys had those responsibilities in spurts. MJ or Kobe never had a season playing point guard. Stretches playing the facilitating role? Sure, and as I said MJ was officially moved to PG in 89 for 30 games or whatever and raked up a bunch of triple doubles along the way.

[Phoenix]

Please disregard post #25. New list:

MJ
Kobe
West
Wade
Iverson

( I'm waiting for the 'you have AI over Harden?!' interrogation lol)

[L.Kizzle]

So what I did (can't do it in OP so just announcing it here) is I will include Jerry West as a SG.

And, I'll basically do a switch with another combo guard Dennis Johnson (who was on my SG list and was gonna be in the next group of 5.)

DJ played his early years in the backcourt with Gus Williams but is more known as a Celtic Point Guard with backcourt mate to Danny Ainge.

[L.Kizzle]

Please disregard post #25. New list:

MJ
Kobe
West
Wade
Iverson

( I'm waiting for the 'you have AI over Harden?!' interrogation lol)

I actually like the AI over Harden pick.
I actually surprised there is so many Harden over AI picks thus far.

[Phoenix]

I actually like the AI over Harden pick.
I actually surprised there is so many Harden over AI picks thus far.

Recency bias and the over emphasis on analytics. Harden wouldn't be this efficient in 2001 and Iverson wouldn't be shooting 41% in 2020. My positional rankings reflect the order I have the players in my overall GOAT list and I dont currently rank Harden over AI overall, so by extension he's behind him in my personal SG list.

[Honor Boost]

-Jordan
-West
-Bryant
-Wade
-Harden

Not sure how you could slot anyone else in the top 5.

[L.Kizzle]

-Jordan
-West
-Bryant
-Wade
-Harden

Not sure how you could slot anyone else in the top 5.
Iverson, Drexler or Gervin an easily replace Harden.

[tanibanana]

1. M. Jordan
2. K. Bryant
3. D. Wade
4. J. Harden
5. G. Gervin

[L.Kizzle]

1. M. Jordan
2. K. Bryant
3. D. Wade
4. J. Harden
5. G. Gervin
Jerry West is (now) available. He wasn't at first.

[dankok8]

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden

[TheCorporation]

Iverson, Drexler or Gervin an easily replace Harden.

Absolutely not :lol

[L.Kizzle]

Absolutely not :lol
Gervin was basically the Harden of the late 70s/early 80s. High scoring SG. Led league in scoring 4 times of over 30 ppg. Even played in Texas and had no defense, lol.

[kawhileonard2]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Drexler
5. Harden

[L.Kizzle]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Drexler
5. Harden
I originally had West on the PG list but he's now on the SG list.
Not sure if you didn't add him because of the OP or just because.

[L.Kizzle]

JERRY WEST is available for voting of players 1-5.

[Doranku]

1. MJ
2. Bean
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Drexler

[red1]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. AI

[aj1987]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West
5. Harden (have to put him there, even though I hate his game)

[Reggie43]

MJ
Kobe
West
Wade
Drexler

[Charlie Sheen]

Please disregard post #25. New list:

MJ
Kobe
West
Wade
Iverson

( I'm waiting for the 'you have AI over Harden?!' interrogation lol)

:cheers:

[Kiddlovesnets]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwayne Wade
5. James Harden

[Charlie Sheen]

Lakers backcourt from 1971-1974
Jerry West assist from 1971-1974. 10 ast, 10 ast, 9 ast, 7 ast
Gail Goodrich asst from 1971-1974. 5 ast, 5 ast, 4 ast, 5 ast

West was top 10 in assist 11 of his 14 seaaons.

Someone was a shooting guard and someone was a point guard.

I get why you did it. You weren't wrong. It makes sense. Heck I even gave you a list if west wasn't included. Just saying it felt like walking into my house and someone rearranged all my furniture cause we always ranked west as a sg on ish. :lol

[Phoenix]

:cheers:

I saw your picks. Back at ya :cheers:

[houston]

jordan
kobe
harden
Wade
greer

If Allen Iverson listed as SG so should West

[RRR3]

jordan
kobe
harden
Wade
greer

If Allen Iverson listed as SG so should West
He listed West, he just can’t edit the OP. Harden over Wade? How?

[Phoenix]

Iverson was listed at SG for all but like a few seasons. Played the point his rookie and sophomore( Stackhouse was the SG) then moved to SG IIRC in his third year and that's when he started winning scoring titles.

[L.Kizzle]

JERRY WEST is available for selection to anyone not sure.

[And1AllDay]

kobe
mike
wade
west
harden

[houston]

He listed West, he just can’t edit the OP. Harden over Wade? How?

Harden MVP have to be recognize

[L.Kizzle]

Harden MVP have to be recognize

Wade's Finals MVP has to be recognized

[Phoenix]

Harden MVP have to be recognize

If that's the case then what's your logic for Greer over someone like Iverson? You even mentioned him in your post so not like you forgot he existed.

[tanibanana]

Jerry West is (now) available. He wasn't at first.

Yup, as it should.

[houston]

If that's the case then what's your logic for Greer over someone like Iverson? You even mentioned him in your post so not like you forgot he existed.

Allen Iverson good point just ain't huge AI guy like that. He was a headcase. Greer just underrated legend just showing love. Harden and Wade are similar expect Harden was more stat god than him.

[L.Kizzle]

Yup, as it should.

Are you gonna keep your five or change?

[Phoenix]

Allen Iverson good point just ain't huge AI guy like that. He was a headcase. Greer just underrated legend just showing love. Harden and Wade are similar expect Harden was more stat god than him.

Not sure you have to be a 'huge' guy of anyone in particular to properly rank them. AI was mercurial but that has little to do with how good he was at basketball, in isolation or in relation to Greer. Who's the better player? Who had the better career? Some combination of the two, ideally. If it's about showing love alot of guys would be getting sentimental votes and screw up this exercise. Not that I expect Greer to get enough votes at this stage to matter, but still.

Wade's a much better 2way player than Harden, and I think enough people can see how modern rules will pump up his stats compared to Wade, but watching the two I have little doubt who the better player is/was. Wade in this era would be shredding defenses so I'm not sure how much the stat argument even matters. Wade's 30/8 in 09 and Harden doing 34/8 or whatever today were achieved in very different leagues.