There’s no trade market for Cavs forward Kevin Love ‘at all’

[LAmbruh]

“I don’t think there’s any market for him at all,” Hollinger said. “I had people openly scoff at me last year when I was bringing up Kevin Love trades.”

:roll::roll::roll:


https://cavaliersnation.com/2020/11/10/report-kevin-love-trade-speculation-takes-an-unfortunate-turn-for-the-cavs/

[1987_Lakers]

I heard a rumor that the Warriors are trying to trade for Love. Who knows.

[Stanley Kobrick]

the hall of fame is starting to look further and further out of reach for kevin love. most people are coming to the realization his statistical revenue in minnesota was a facade

[bluechox2]

Never count yourself out when a team run like New York exists

[TheCorporation]

the hall of fame is starting to look further and further out of reach for kevin love. most people are coming to the realization his statistical revenue in minnesota was a facade

He was a stad padding loser during those years. Kevin Lovempty stats

[Marchesk]

Lebron traded for Love.

[light]

:roll::roll::roll:


https://cavaliersnation.com/2020/11/10/report-kevin-love-trade-speculation-takes-an-unfortunate-turn-for-the-cavs/

Bron won a title with this dude.

[goozeman]

He was a stad padding loser during those years. Kevin Lovempty stats


Minus an injury year, last four years in Minny Love was basically top 25_TS% and borderline top 10 in adjusted true shooting. Hardly a "stat padder."

[┌∩┐(﹒︠益﹒︡)┌∩┐]

Minus an injury year, last four years in Minny Love was basically top 25_TS% and borderline top 10 in adjusted true shooting. Hardly a "stat padder."

Padded his efficiency over winning. We see it time and time again

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I would take him in a heartbeat on Clippers. Give them Montrezl Harrell, Shamet, J Green.

And then you sign rondo/ibaka

Rondo/George/Kawhi/Love/Zubac

Bench: Beverly Morris Lou Williams ibaka

That team would win the next 3 championships

[light]

I would take him in a heartbeat on Clippers. Give them Montrezl Harrell, Shamet, J Green.

And then you sign rondo/ibaka

Rondo/George/Kawhi/Love/Zubac

Bench: Beverly Morris Lou Williams ibaka

That team would win the next 3 championships

I'm not sure Lue would want him. He used to bench him in 4th quarters all the time on the Cavs (poor defense/slow).

The Clippers are not going to be able to beat the Lakers any time soon unless they get someone like Giannis or pre-injury Durant.

[goozeman]

Padded his efficiency over winning. We see it time and time again

Huh? Padding efficiency over winning? This most be some kind of new basketball math, especially considering Love was a high-volume guy. Look at the 2016 net+ ratings for 2016. He is top 10 in net efficiency in every two-man combination in the RS, meaning his impact was huge across the board regardless of lineup. He was only behind Lebron in On_Court net rating in their playoff run the year they won the championship. Cleveland posted a ridiculous 121.8 ORtg with him on the court. Kevin Love is a good basketball player. Ya'll just typical Lebron fans who have to tear players down to try to make him look good.

[Stanley Kobrick]

it's kind of crazy to think Warriors have a Kevin Love tier player in Wiggins, no one really thinks of it as a superteam because lets face it stephen curry isn't superstar on his own. he needs a star studded cast and deep bench. wiggins, klay, dray and a 2nd pick still won't be enough for stephen curry to get past Kawhi or 38yo Lebron

[Axe]

it's kind of crazy to think Warriors have a Kevin Love tier player in Wiggins, no one really thinks of it as a superteam because lets face it stephen curry isn't superstar on his own. he needs a star studded cast and deep bench
The beloved chef needs moar help to be relevant in the league once again.

[Stanley Kobrick]

The beloved chef needs moar help to be relevant in the league once again.
hopefully warriors can snag Giannis so stephen curry feels comfortable shooting 3's when the score is out of reach again

[Axe]

hopefully warriors can snag Giannis so stephen curry feels comfortable shooting 3's when the score is out of reach again
But if that becomes the case, is he willing to be snubbed another potential fmvp award to a rising star if the warriors win another title?

[goozeman]

it's kind of crazy to think Warriors have a Kevin Love tier player in Wiggins, no one really thinks of it as a superteam because lets face it stephen curry isn't superstar on his own. he needs a star studded cast and deep bench. wiggins, klay, dray and a 2nd pick still won't be enough for stephen curry to get past Kawhi or 38yo Lebron

It's pretty funny that you think 24-year-old 19/5/3 Wiggins is good as Love at the same age posting 26/13/3 on basically similar career volume. Hell, Wiggins is a SG and Love blows him out of water as a jump shooter. Wiggins a career .522_TS% guy (below average to just bad depending on year). Take out an injury year and Love is .57_TS% for his career (very good to elite depending on year). Wiggins is a top-100 borderline PER guy. Love has had multiple top 5 seasons in PER. Peak, these guys are not even on the same planet.

[Gray GOAT]

I would take him in a heartbeat on Clippers. Give them Montrezl Harrell, Shamet, J Green.

And then you sign rondo/ibaka

Rondo/George/Kawhi/Love/Zubac

Bench: Beverly Morris Lou Williams ibaka

That team would win the next 3 championships
Kawhit needs moar help. :( Perhaps 8 All-Stars will be enough for him to get by 7’1” Brian Windhorst.

[r0drig0lac]

Padded his efficiency over winning. We see it time and time againlol what?

[CelticBaller]

that contract was a big headscratcher

[HoopsNY]

Huh? Padding efficiency over winning? This most be some kind of new basketball math, especially considering Love was a high-volume guy. Look at the 2016 net+ ratings for 2016. He is top 10 in net efficiency in every two-man combination in the RS, meaning his impact was huge across the board regardless of lineup. He was only behind Lebron in On_Court net rating in their playoff run the year they won the championship. Cleveland posted a ridiculous 121.8 ORtg with him on the court. Kevin Love is a good basketball player. Ya'll just typical Lebron fans who have to tear players down to try to make him look good.

You'll never see a more insecure pack of stans than Bran stans. They try to downplay everyone. Look at how they downplay Wade, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, and most recently, look at the attempts to downplay AD, right on this forum.

It's unbelievable. Name another great player in history whose fanbase tried to diminish every single player on a dynasty or championship team.

You don't see this with, Russel and the Celtics, Magic and the Lakers, Bird and the Celtics, Jordan and the Bulls, Duncan and the Spurs, KD and the warriors, etc. Even on this forum, 3ball and tpols are the only ones who consistently rant on Pippen, but that's it. And this attitude certainly wasn't prevalent during Chicago's championship runs. You didn't have the fan base then having a go at the entire cast's significant players (Rodman, Kukoc, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Paxson, etc).

But during LeBron's last 10 years, there has been a consistent attempt by Bran stans to eliminate any contributions of the elite players on his teams. And a lot of it is as you mentioned - it's all in an effort to prop him up. Utterly pathetic.

[TheGoatest]

I heard a rumor that the Warriors are trying to trade for Love. Who knows.

Yeah. They'll offer Damion Lee for him. :roll:

[FireDavidKahn]

Bron won a title with this dude.

LeBron is an amazing person for participating in the Make A Wish foundation.

He got Love a championship:bowdown:

[TheGoatest]

Bron won a title with this dude.

And he didn't even play in one of the games that finals.
They love to bring up the one game Draymond didn't play in the series, but dodge the subject of "big 3" member Kevin Love missing a game.

[HoopsNY]

Love had potential. But when you become relegated to being just a jump shooter and having to play off the ball by just standing around, you don't improve.

We've seen this with LeBron's entire career. Who are the players that he took to the next level? Hughes? Jamison? Wade? Bosh? Love? Kyrie?

How about when he told Magic Johnson he would be the mentor to Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram? What happened there?

Bran goes to franchises, relegates the supporting cast, and then those guys take the blame for not producing up to standard. I want to know how exactly that can even happen with LeBron's style of play? You really have to wonder which games these guys actually watch.

[1987_Lakers]

Love had potential. But when you become relegated to being just a jump shooter and having to play off the ball by just standing around, you don't improve.

We've seen this with LeBron's entire career. Who are the players that he took to the next level? Hughes? Jamison? Wade? Bosh? Love? Kyrie?

How about when he told Magic Johnson he would be the mentor to Kuzma, Ball, and Ingram? What happened there?

Bran goes to franchises, relegates the supporting cast, and then those guys take the blame for not producing up to standard. I want to know how exactly that can even happen with LeBron's style of play? You really have to wonder which games these guys actually watch.

Why didn't Kevin Love get better once LeBron left Cleveland?

[HoopsNY]

LeBron is an amazing person for participating in the Make A Wish foundation.

He got Love a championship:bowdown:

Got Love a championship? Love was injured that series, barely played 26 minutes a game, and had a concussion in game 2.

Look at Love's contributions the first three rounds:

2016 Playoffs

Round 1: 19/12/2 on 54% TS%, 14.7 GmSc (higher than any of the opposing team's players)
Round 2: 19/13/3 on 50% TS%, 14.0 GmSc (almost even with Atlanta's best - Millsap 14.2)
Round 3: 15/6/3 on 64% TS%, 12.8 GmSc (higher than any opposing player other than DeRozan - 14.8)

The caveat here is that Love had an injured foot and missed time as a result of it in the Toronto series. Otherwise, his GmSc is probably on par with DeRozan's.

So this is what it boils down to; just piss all over Love's contribution when he was arguably just as good, if not better than the opposing team's best player? Bran stans live in an alternate universe. They want to diminish the supporting cast because they know LeBron's style of play doesn't raise the bar for any of his teammates, other than maybe Mario Chalmers.

[HoopsNY]

Why didn't Kevin Love get better once LeBron left Cleveland?

Oh, I dunno; a book full of injuries? he hit 30 already? Past his prime? Spent years of being relegated and didn't develop beyond the skillset he came into the team with? You realize he only played in 22 games in the 2018-19 season, right?

Why is it that fans, like yourself, seemingly want to continue to take away from all-stars that LeBron diminished. It's their fault. Not LeBron's. It's these guys fault for basically being spot up shooters who stand around and wait for a shot. This is the brand of basketball that is expected to uplift guys into that next level.

If that is so, why haven't we seen it? What happened with Boozer, R. Davis, Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma? Where is the leadership that builds players both offensively and defensively?

[MadDog]

Oh, I dunno; a book full of injuries? he hit 30 already? Past his prime? Spent years of being relegated and didn't develop beyond the skillset he came into the team with? You realize he only played in 22 games in the 2018-19 season, right?

Why is it that fans, like yourself, seemingly want to continue to take away from all-stars that LeBron diminished. It's their fault. Not LeBron's. It's these guys fault for basically being spot up shooters who stand around and wait for a shot. This is the brand of basketball that is expected to uplift guys into that next level.

If that is so, why haven't we seen it? What happened with Boozer, R. Davis, Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma? Where is the leadership that builds players both offensively and defensively?

Because LeBron fans have no conception of teamwork or comradery. In all fairness, though, they get it from their leader. LeBron's teammates, or the stars he joined, are simply mercenaries to him. Once they are finished? LeBron jumps ship and paddles to the next best destination. With his group of followers hot on the trail. :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Because LeBron fans have no conception of teamwork or comradery. In all fairness, though, they get it from their leader. LeBron's teammates, or the stars he joined, are simply mercenaries to him. Once they are finished? LeBron jumps ship and paddles to the next best destination. With his group of followers hot on the trail. :oldlol:

Even if one were to say that this was okay. Fine. But why is it seen as good thing that championship level teams are unable to play without him?

Jordan left in 1993 and the team won 55 games. For some reason, Bran stans think that this is a bad thing. It's not. It's a good thing. Players developed under a system which allowed them to play well with their best player both on and off the court.

Look at LeBron's teams once he goes off the court. What happens? If he's such a great leader, why do these teams suddenly become inept with him off the floor? Then, when he leaves the team all together, they seemingly fall apart?

Only Bran stans and TheFakeBullsFan think that this is somehow praiseworthy for teammates and for a franchise. It's truly odd.

[1987_Lakers]

Oh, I dunno; a book full of injuries? he hit 30 already? Past his prime? Spent years of being relegated and didn't develop beyond the skillset he came into the team with? You realize he only played in 22 games in the 2018-19 season, right?

Why is it that fans, like yourself, seemingly want to continue to take away from all-stars that LeBron diminished. It's their fault. Not LeBron's. It's these guys fault for basically being spot up shooters who stand around and wait for a shot. This is the brand of basketball that is expected to uplift guys into that next level.

If that is so, why haven't we seen it? What happened with Boozer, R. Davis, Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma? Where is the leadership that builds players both offensively and defensively?

Being 30-31 is past your prime now? How many all-star level players in history saw their numbers drop considerably once they hit 30? :oldlol:

Love has played 77 games since LeBron left, and he has averaged 17/10 on 43% shooting. Pretty much the exact same numbers he averaged WITH LeBron.

What people like you don' understand is that he was averaging 24/14 on a bad Minnesota team where he was the vocal point of the offense, former teammates like Darko Milicic came out and said Love was a stat padder. “He Was A Crybaby, We Would Win, And If He Didn't Score His 20 Points, You Could Almost See Tears In His Eyes.”

[1987_Lakers]

It's amazing to see how LeBron's teammates have done without LeBron.

Kyrie - Failed in Boston
Love - Nobody wants to trade for him
Wade - Past his prime by 2012, saw his efficiency drop considerably once LeBron left
Bosh - Retired shortly after
AD - Never got past the 2nd round before joining LA

LeBron proving once again why he is the GOAT

[HoopsNY]

Being 30-31 is past your prime now? How many all-star level players in history saw their numbers drop considerably once they hit 30? :oldlol:

Love has played 77 games since LeBron left, and he has averaged 17/10 on 43% shooting. Pretty much the exact same numbers he averaged WITH LeBron.

What people like you don't is that he was averaging 24/14 on a bad Minnesota team where he was the vocal point of the offense, former teammates like Darko Milicic came out and said Love was a stat padder. “He Was A Crybaby, We Would Win, And If He Didn't Score His 20 Points, You Could Almost See Tears In His Eyes.”

That's because Love wasn't an elite player. And if we concede to what it is that you're saying, then it only proves my point. Love didn't return to those numbers. He declined. Why?

If your response is, well he sucks, then by your own admission, he shouldn't have fallen off due to age. So then what is it? He didn't play this way with Minnesota, even if he did stat pad.

Love went from playing 36.4 minutes with 18.5 FGA per game his last season with Minnesota to 33.8 minutes and 12.7 FGA per game. All you have to do is answer me this, was Love the same player on Cleveland as he was on Minnesota, did he have the same capability, was he an equivalent?

Clearly the answer is no. The question is, why did he fall off so badly? And, why did everyone else LeBron played with seemingly fall off the map or were significantly restricted?

So magically:

Love
Bosh
Wade
R. Davis
Ingram
Ball
Boozer
Hughes
Jamison
Kuzma

.....all had diminished play alongside LeBron? Who does LeBron make better? You really can't see the inconsistencies here?

[HoopsNY]

It's amazing to see how LeBron's teammates have done without LeBron.

Kyrie - Failed in Boston
Love - Nobody wants to trade for him
Wade - Past his prime by 2012, saw his efficiency drop considerably once LeBron left
Bosh - Retired shortly after
AD - Never got past the 2nd round before joining LA

LeBron proving once again why he is the GOAT

Amazing. Diminish players' careers, then get praised for it. This is the logic of Bran stans today.

For 60 years, the NBA and its fan based marveled at leaders like Russell, Magic, Bird, MJ, Duncan, etc, and their ability to develop teammates through a system. Guys built up teams together with coaching staffs to produce a quality brand of basketball that produced dynasties.

Now we have LeBron basketball that diminishes talent and production, and it's praised! This is a good thing that your career falls apart!

[MadDog]

Even if one were to say that this was okay. Fine. But why is it seen as good thing that championship level teams are unable to play without him?

Jordan left in 1993 and the team won 55 games. For some reason, Bran stans think that this is a bad thing. It's not. It's a good thing. Players developed under a system which allowed them to play well with their best player both on and off the court.

Look at LeBron's teams once he goes off the court. What happens? If he's such a great leader, why do these teams suddenly become inept with him off the floor? Then, when he leaves the team all together, they seemingly fall apart?

Only Bran stans and TheFakeBullsFan think that this is somehow praiseworthy for teammates and for a franchise. It's truly odd.

Yup, but its like I said. Teamwork is a foreign concept to the them. They'll praise Regular-Season wins and give all the credit to LeBron, but then scurry once his Finals record is mentioned. :confusedshrug:


It's amazing to see how LeBron's teammates have done without LeBron.

Kyrie - Failed in Boston
Love - Nobody wants to trade for him
Wade - Past his prime by 2012, saw his efficiency drop considerably once LeBron left
Bosh - Retired shortly after
AD - Never got past the 2nd round before joining LA

LeBron proving once again why he is the GOAT


Case in point, HoopsNY. Yeah its not like Wade was ever a superstar, or led a team to a championship. Nope. That's in the fiction aisle! :oldlol:

[MadDog]

Who is the "TheFakeBullsFan" btw? :confusedshrug: I'm constantly called "Racist Coach" on here and still have NO IDEA what that means. :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Yup, but its like I said. Teamwork is a foreign concept to the them. They'll praise Regular-Season wins and give all the credit to LeBron, but then scurry once his Finals record is mentioned. :confusedshrug:




Case in point, HoopsNY. Yeah its not like Wade was ever a superstar, or led a team to a championship. Nope. That's in the fiction aisle! :oldlol:

We saw it all season with Anthony Davis. And no surprise, 1987_Lakers (he tries to make himself seem like an old timer), likes to bring up AD's playoff success prior to 2019-20, despite playing in the Western Conference the entire time.

No mention of LeBron's inability to take the Lakers to the playoffs last year.

Bran Stan Logic: He had the team 4th at one point BEFORE injury!

Response: What happened after injury with Ingram putting up 25 PPG? Why did he go 4-13?

Bran Stan Logic: *repeats slogans* LeBron is the GOAT!, he got injured!

So AD is criticized for a second round exit, and LeBron is praised for no playoffs to begin with. Go figure.

Just like LeBron is praised for all his finals appearances, wins and losses, while his teammates get shitted on during their tenure and after he leaves. Remember, it's a good thing that LeBron relegates teammates to diminished roles and they are no longer functional once he leaves.

[HoopsNY]

Who is the "TheFakeBullsFan" btw? :confusedshrug: I'm constantly called "Racist Coach" on here and still have NO IDEA what that means. :oldlol:

The one who likes to type 4 page essays filled with red herrings but never actually addresses what it is that you say.

[1987_Lakers]

Amazing. Diminish players' careers, then get praised for it. This is the logic of Bran stans today.

For 60 years, the NBA and its fan based marveled at leaders like Russell, Magic, Bird, MJ, Duncan, etc, and their ability to develop teammates through a system. Guys built up teams together with coaching staffs to produce a quality brand of basketball that produced dynasties.

Now we have LeBron basketball that diminishes talent and production, and it's praised! This is a good thing that your career falls apart!

LeBron elevated a past prime Wade.

13 Wade: 57 TS%
14 Wade: 59 TS%

Without Bron
15: 53 TS%
16: 52 TS%

Kyrie was looked as an elite sidekick with LeBron, without him he is looked at as a cancer, prime example in how he failed in Boston. Remember when Kyrie was calling LeBron asking for advice on leadership? :oldlol: AD is considered a top 5 player today because of LeBron, if you listed him as top 5 in 2017 you would be laughed at, LeBron once again elevating his teammates. :pimp:

[MadDog]

We saw it all season with Anthony Davis. And no surprise, 1987_Lakers (he tries to make himself seem like an old timer), likes to bring up AD's playoff success prior to 2019-20, despite playing in the Western Conference the entire time.

No mention of LeBron's inability to take the Lakers to the playoffs last year.

Bran Stan Logic: He had the team 4th at one point BEFORE injury!

Response: What happened after injury with Ingram putting up 25 PPG? Why did he go 4-13?

Bran Stan Logic: *repeats slogans* LeBron is the GOAT!, he got injured!

So AD is criticized for a second round exit, and LeBron is praised for no playoffs to begin with. Go figure.

Just like LeBron is praised for all his finals appearances, wins and losses, while his teammates get shitted on during their tenure and after he leaves. Remember, it's a good thing that LeBron relegates teammates to diminished roles and they are no longer functional once he leaves.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/fnuOvhvCX1gU50pN95/source.gif


The one who likes to type 4 page essays filled with red herrings but never actually addresses what it is that you say.

Still have no clue who that is, but the poster sounds like most LeBron fans. :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

LeBron elevated a past prime Wade.

13 Wade: 57 TS%
14 Wade: 59 TS%

Without Bron
15: 53 TS%
16: 52 TS%

Kyrie was looked as an elite sidekick with LeBron, without him he is looked at as a cancer, prime example in how he failed in Boston. Remember when Kyrie was calling LeBron asking for advice on leadership? :oldlol: AD is considered a top 5 player today because of LeBron, if you listed him as top 5 in 2017 you would be laughed at, LeBron once again elevating his teammates. :pimp:

Look at the lies and distortions. Wade's career declined with LeBron. This is a good thing in this guy's eyes. And coincidentally, everyone else declines with LeBron too! And he gloats about it as if it's praiseworthy!

Then he brings up Anthony Davis and says that people would laugh at thinking AD was top 5 before LeBron, and cherrypicks 2017.

Davis '16-'17 RS

28/12/2 with 2 blocks on 51%

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 2nd Team
9th in MVP Voting

Davis' '17-'18 RS & Playoffs

RS: 28/11/2 with 3 blocks on 53%
Playoffs: 30/13/2 with 2 blocks on 52%

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 1st Team
3rd in MVP voting
League leader in blocks

So he conveniently uses the 2016-17 season with a 23 year old Davis who was still developing, but ignores the more recent season as a more indicative sample, then claims people would laugh at thinking Davis was a top 5 player. Amazing.

[HoopsNY]

The fact remains is that LeBron didn't elevate anything. Anthony Davis was already one of the top 5 players in the league before he joined LA. Only Bran stans want to pretend that their idol makes players better. He doesn't. Quit dreaming.

You can't say LeBron makes players better, then proceed to diminish his teammates' contributions, piss on their careers, and criticize them after LeBron leaves. Which one is it, does he elevate them or not?

Bran stans will continue to play this game because they want people to believe LeBron is the be all end all of every team he plays for. By diminishing his supporting cast, it makes it seem as if he's able to win with nothing at all. This is why you find all over this forum and on social media, his fan base going on and on about literally every single main contributor to his teams' success.

[1987_Lakers]

Look at the lies and distortions. Wade's career declined with LeBron. This is a good thing in this guy's eyes. And coincidentally, everyone else declines with LeBron too! And he gloats about it as if it's praiseworthy!

Then he brings up Anthony Davis and says that people would laugh at thinking AD was top 5 before LeBron, and cherrypicks 2017.

Davis '16-'17 RS

28/12/2 with 2 blocks on 51%

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 2nd Team
9th in MVP Voting

Davis' '17-'18 RS & Playoffs

RS: 28/11/2 with 3 blocks on 53%
Playoffs: 30/13/2 with 2 blocks on 52%

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 1st Team
3rd in MVP voting
League leader in blocks

So conveniently use the 2016-17 season with a 23 year old Davis who was still developing, but ignore the more recent season as a more indicative sample, then claim people would laugh at thinking Davis was a top 5 player. Amazing.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2737803-nba-player-rankings-top-100-players-before-2017-18-season-tips-off #9
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/sports/nba-top-100-players-2017/ #8
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank110/nbarank-players-1-10 #6

Look at this, every media outlet had him ranked outside the top 5 in 2017. You think I'm making this up? AD is top 5 now thanks to LeBron.

:hammertime::hammertime::hammertime:

[NBASTATMAN]

Huh? Padding efficiency over winning? This most be some kind of new basketball math, especially considering Love was a high-volume guy. Look at the 2016 net+ ratings for 2016. He is top 10 in net efficiency in every two-man combination in the RS, meaning his impact was huge across the board regardless of lineup. He was only behind Lebron in On_Court net rating in their playoff run the year they won the championship. Cleveland posted a ridiculous 121.8 ORtg with him on the court. Kevin Love is a good basketball player. Ya'll just typical Lebron fans who have to tear players down to try to make him look good.

Lebron was on the team... How many wins has he got Cleveland since BRON LEFT.. LOL... Love is not an all star level player in the EAST.. In the soft West he looks better.. But u saw what Lebron did to the SOFT WEST.. LOL

[HoopsNY]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2737803-nba-player-rankings-top-100-players-before-2017-18-season-tips-off #9
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/sports/nba-top-100-players-2017/ #8
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank110/nbarank-players-1-10 #6

Look at this, every media outlet had him ranked outside the top 5 in 2017. You think I'm making this up? AD is top 5 now thanks to LeBron.

:hammertime::hammertime::hammertime:

Who cares about the 2016-17 season? Are you that stubborn? Why are you choosing 2017 and not 2018? Show me Davis' 2018 numbers and accolades. I repeat:

Davis' '17-'18 RS & Playoffs

RS: 28/11/2 with 3 blocks on 53%
Playoffs: 30/13/2 with 2 blocks on 52%

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 1st Team
3rd in MVP voting
League leader in blocks

So here is the question, was he top 5 in 2018? If he is, why do you rely on 2017 more?

[HoopsNY]

Lebron was on the team... How many wins has he got Cleveland since BRON LEFT.. LOL... Love is not an all star level player in the EAST.. In the soft West he looks better.. But u saw what Lebron did to the SOFT WEST.. LOL

So now the West circa 2010-14 was the weaker conference? Bran stans become more delusional by the day.

And again, why is it a good thing that LeBron's teammates decline with and after him? Why do LeBron fans celebrate the fact that teams can't play without him? Is this individual basketball or team basketball?

Who does LeBron elevate? In his entire career, I can probably name one player - Mario Chalmers. It was evident that Chalmers benefited off of his play and improved as a player. At the most now, I'd say KCP, but that's about it. Now what about:

Jamison
R. Davis
Hughes
Wade
Bosh
Love
Kyrie
Kuzma
Ingram
Ball

???

[8Ball]

Why didn't Kevin Love get better once LeBron left Cleveland?

LeBron gave him mental depression :cry:

Should have punched him in the face ala Jordan :roll:

[Ben Simmons]

Kevin was always overrated. He put up good numbers on a meh/bad team and was statpadding consistently. In fact, even his teammates Rubio and Pekovic said as much. Pekovic said that Kevin Love use to cry if he didnt get his rebound numbers whether they won or lost. Sounds about right. That said this whole Lebron narrative is probably overstated. What changed around Love wasnt just his team it was the entire league.

I do think Love losing weight hurt his post up game a bit as well as the multitude of injuries, but I think what really did him is that the league started to slowly shoot more and more 3s while playing much faster around the court. Suddenly the best stretch 4 in the league was defensive liability and the people that use to be 3s started playing the 4 spot with just as good or even better shots. The game just passed him by because he's not long enough to be a great defensive center, which great most 4s had to switch to or be rendered obsolete. Blake Griffin who Love was always compared too has a similar issue. Anthony Davis doesnt because he can easily switch to the 5 even though he doesnt like it.

[Shooter]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2737803-nba-player-rankings-top-100-players-before-2017-18-season-tips-off #9
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/sports/nba-top-100-players-2017/ #8
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank110/nbarank-players-1-10 #6

Look at this, every media outlet had him ranked outside the top 5 in 2017. You think I'm making this up? AD is top 5 now thanks to LeBron.

:hammertime::hammertime::hammertime:

There is a thread in 2019 ranking top 10 players, and like one guy had him 6th :lol Just last year :lol

[Shooter]

So now the West circa 2010-14 was the weaker conference? Bran stans become more delusional by the day.

And again, why is it a good thing that LeBron's teammates decline with and after him? Why do LeBron fans celebrate the fact that teams can't play without him? Is this individual basketball or team basketball?

Who does LeBron elevate? In his entire career, I can probably name one player - Mario Chalmers. It was evident that Chalmers benefited off of his play and improved as a player. At the most now, I'd say KCP, but that's about it. Now what about:

Jamison
R. Davis
Hughes
Wade
Bosh
Love
Kyrie
Kuzma
Ingram
Ball

???

Let's put it this way. We're still waiting on Kevin Love's 55-win, 3rd in MVP season :roll::roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Look at the lies and distortions. Wade's career declined with LeBron. This is a good thing in this guy's eyes. And coincidentally, everyone else declines with LeBron too! And he gloats about it as if it's praiseworthy!

Then he brings up Anthony Davis and says that people would laugh at thinking AD was top 5 before LeBron, and cherrypicks 2017.

Davis '16-'17 RS

28/12/2 with 2 blocks on 51%

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 2nd Team
9th in MVP Voting

Davis' '17-'18 RS & Playoffs

RS: 28/11/2 with 3 blocks on 53%
Playoffs: 30/13/2 with 2 blocks on 52%

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 1st Team
3rd in MVP voting
League leader in blocks

So he conveniently uses the 2016-17 season with a 23 year old Davis who was still developing, but ignores the more recent season as a more indicative sample, then claims people would laugh at thinking Davis was a top 5 player. Amazing.

He was basically the same player in 2017 and 2018. The one nitpicking is you. But since you asked ESPN didnt even have AD in the top 5 heading into the 2019 and very few people had AD in the top 5 during the 2019 season, it wasnt until after he played with LeBron was when he was a consensus top 5 player, why do you think that was? Cause he played on a championship team led by LeBron.

[3ball]

In 2018, Kevin Love was the best 2nd option in the conference, and the 3rd best first option (or 4th)

Now he's just old - he gave up his prime for bron-ball

[Shooter]

In 2018, Kevin Love was the best 2nd option in the conference, and the 3rd best first option (or 4th)

Now he's just old - he gave up his prime for bron-ball

What a damn shame, too. Poor Kevin Love joined LeBron and instantly made 3 straight Finals, won a ring, and was part of the greatest comeback in all of sports history. :( He should have stayed in Minnesota and stacked up more PPGZ and missed the playoffs. What an idiot he was for joining LeBron.

[FireDavidKahn]

Got Love a championship? Love was injured that series, barely played 26 minutes a game, and had a concussion in game 2.

Look at Love's contributions the first three rounds:

2016 Playoffs

Round 1: 19/12/2 on 54% TS%, 14.7 GmSc (higher than any of the opposing team's players)
Round 2: 19/13/3 on 50% TS%, 14.0 GmSc (almost even with Atlanta's best - Millsap 14.2)
Round 3: 15/6/3 on 64% TS%, 12.8 GmSc (higher than any opposing player other than DeRozan - 14.8)

The caveat here is that Love had an injured foot and missed time as a result of it in the Toronto series. Otherwise, his GmSc is probably on par with DeRozan's.

So this is what it boils down to; just piss all over Love's contribution when he was arguably just as good, if not better than the opposing team's best player? Bran stans live in an alternate universe. They want to diminish the supporting cast because they know LeBron's style of play doesn't raise the bar for any of his teammates, other than maybe Mario Chalmers.

Cavs were 4-4 in the finals when love played less than 20 minutes (6 of those w/o kyrie too) and 3-11 when he played 20 or more minutes.

Welp

[HoopsNY]

He was basically the same player in 2017 and 2018. The one nitpicking is you. But since you asked ESPN didnt even have AD in the top 5 heading into the 2019 and very few people had AD in the top 5 during the 2019 season, it wasnt until after he played with LeBron was when he was a consensus top 5 player, why do you think that was? Cause he played on a championship team led by LeBron.

Which is why he finished 3rd in MVP voting in 2018 and 6th in 2020. He finished 5th in the 2015 voting as well.

So let's see:

2014-15

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 2nd Team
5th in MVP Voting

2017-18

All-Star
All-NBA 1st Team
All-Defensive 1st Team
3rd in MVP voting

But it's "laughable" to think he was a top 5 player before joining LeBron. Sure thing buddy. LeBron "elevated" AD to 6th in MVP voting. :lol

[HoopsNY]

Cavs were 4-4 in the finals when love played less than 20 minutes (6 of those w/o kyrie too) and 3-11 when he played 20 or more minutes.

Welp

So which one is it? Did LeBron "elevate" him or not? You see Bran stands like yourself run into a dichotomy that you yourselves created.

If you say he elevated Love, then according to your own cherrypicking numbers, you contradict yourself.

[FireDavidKahn]

So which one is it? Did LeBron "elevate" him or not? You see Bran stands like yourself run into a dichotomy that you yourselves created.

If you say he elevated Love, then according to your own cherrypicking numbers, you contradict yourself.

Where did I say Love was elevated?



Quote Originally Posted by FireDavidKahn View Post
LeBron is an amazing person for participating in the Make A Wish foundation.

He got Love a championship

He dragged his ass to a championship

[FireDavidKahn]

Bump.

We have indisputable evidence that Love was an extreme detriment when he played in the Finals. It's a miracle LeBron ever won a championship with him.

[LAmbruh]

Bump.

We have indisputable evidence that Love was an extreme detriment when he played in the Finals. It's a miracle LeBron ever won a championship with him.

solid bump, solid post


future 5*

[Indian guy]

Oh, I dunno; a book full of injuries? he hit 30 already? Past his prime?f

This is some fine revisionism. After Love's putrid showing in the 2018 playoffs, many blamed LeBron for it and expected him to shine in 2019 after LeBron's departure to LA. Except Love managed to attempt even more 3PA/G in 2019, his efficiency collapsed and his ppg went down. In other words, a worse offensive player in every way. So much for LeBron holding him back :rolleyes:. Literally anyone who actually watched Love in Cleveland could've foreseen him not amounting to anything post-LeBron. With his strength going down the toilet with weight loss, his already-limited athleticism further diminished with age and the game moving further and further away from the post up (something he could no longer do as it is), a big who can stretch the floor was by far Love's best and only positive offensive attribute. A creator who could put high volume numbers he simply wasn't and hadn't been for a long time. Only ignorant fools with their anti-LeBron agenda couldn't see this.


Why is it that fans, like yourself, seemingly want to continue to take away from all-stars that LeBron diminished.

What an utterly ignorant opinion to hold. You are better than this.

There's literally not 1 All Star LeBron has ever diminished. Not 1. Any player's drop in volume can be explained by a major change in role - like Bosh/Love going from #1 options on perennial losers to #3 options on contenders. Both produced about as well as you could hope from a #3 option. Both posted their most efficient seasons next to LeBron too. The 2nd options - Wade/Kyrie/AD - produced as well as you could hope from a #2 option, with 2 of 'em even being ball dominant players. Wade/Kyrie/AD all managed to have at least 1 25+ ppg season next to LeBron. AD led the postseason in scoring for crying out loud. Burying the LeBron-can't-play-with-bigs myth for good. And again, all posted their most efficient seasons next to LeBron. Any talk of relegating-them-to-spot-up-status is absolute garbage. How the **** did they manage to produce such high volume seasons next to LeBron then. Must have been all that spotting up I saw Wade, Kyrie and AD doing :rolleyes:. Try to make sense sheesh. And lastly, it cannot be overstated what utter losers all of these guys were prior to joining LeBron (and post-LeBron). Literally no playoff success (assuming they even made it) to speak of.

And :oldlol: @ LeBron being held responsible for teams sucking after he leaves. What bizarre logic is this? :oldlol:. As if the teams he played for didn't generally have mediocre/poor coaching (Brown/Lue), limited talent (04-10 Cleveland), aging #2 option (Wade), one-dimensional, nutjob #2 option (Irving) or simply no talent (2018 Cavs). LeBron should be nothing but lauded for having the type of success he did with those flawed rosters.

[And1AllDay]

What a damn shame, too. Poor Kevin Love joined LeBron and instantly made 3 straight Finals, won a ring, and was part of the greatest comeback in all of sports history. :( He should have stayed in Minnesota and stacked up more PPGZ and missed the playoffs. What an idiot he was for joining LeBron.

:roll::oldlol::oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Cavs were 4-4 in the finals when love played less than 20 minutes (6 of those w/o kyrie too) and 3-11 when he played 20 or more minutes.

Welp

More distortions and cherry picking. Love didn't play in 2015. In 2016 they went 2-2 with him playing more than 20 minutes.

In 2017 and 2018, the Cavs went 1-8 against Golden State. In 2017 they had Kyrie and LeBron and still lost 4-1. The one game that they did win, Love did play more than 20 minutes.

In 2018, they got swept. 20 minutes or not was not the problem. So all this hype about Love and an arbitrary number of 20 minutes is meaningless. What's next, LeBron or Kyrie playing 20+ minutes and them losing 1-8 in 2017 and 2018 suddenly means something? They barely scraped by in 2016 in 7 games.

Not to mention, look at Love's playoff games (including the finals), year by year where he did play at least 20 minutes.

2015: 3-0
2016: 14-5
2017: 13-5
2018: 10-10

So through four years, Cleveland went 40-20 with Love on the court for 20+ minutes. And this includes two finals against a super-team in Golden State where they lost 1-8, which ultimately skews the numbers.

But cherrypick away!

[HoopsNY]

This is some fine revisionism. After Love's putrid showing in the 2018 playoffs, many blamed LeBron for it and expected him to shine in 2019 after LeBron's departure to LA. Except Love managed to attempt even more 3PA/G in 2019, his efficiency collapsed and his ppg went down. In other words, a worse offensive player in every way. So much for LeBron holding him back :rolleyes:. Literally anyone who actually watched Love in Cleveland could've foreseen him not amounting to anything post-LeBron. With his strength going down the toilet with weight loss, his already-limited athleticism further diminished with age and the game moving further and further away from the post up (something he could no longer do as it is), a big who can stretch the floor was by far Love's best and only positive offensive attribute. A creator who could put high volume numbers he simply wasn't and hadn't been for a long time. Only ignorant fools with their anti-LeBron agenda couldn't see this.



What an utterly ignorant opinion to hold. You are better than this.

There's literally not 1 All Star LeBron has ever diminished. Not 1. Any player's drop in volume can be explained by a major change in role - like Bosh/Love going from #1 options on perennial losers to #3 options on contenders. Both produced about as well as you could hope from a #3 option. Both posted their most efficient seasons next to LeBron too. The 2nd options - Wade/Kyrie/AD - produced as well as you could hope from a #2 option, with 2 of 'em even being ball dominant players. Wade/Kyrie/AD all managed to have at least 1 25+ ppg season next to LeBron. AD led the postseason in scoring for crying out loud. Burying the LeBron-can't-play-with-bigs myth for good. And again, all posted their most efficient seasons next to LeBron. Any talk of relegating-them-to-spot-up-status is absolute garbage. How the **** did they manage to produce such high volume seasons next to LeBron then. Must have been all that spotting up I saw Wade, Kyrie and AD doing :rolleyes:. Try to make sense sheesh. And lastly, it cannot be overstated what utter losers all of these guys were prior to joining LeBron (and post-LeBron). Literally no playoff success (assuming they even made it) to speak of.

And :oldlol: @ LeBron being held responsible for teams sucking after he leaves. What bizarre logic is this? :oldlol:. As if the teams he played for didn't generally have mediocre/poor coaching (Brown/Lue), limited talent (04-10 Cleveland), aging #2 option (Wade), one-dimensional, nutjob #2 option (Irving) or simply no talent (2018 Cavs). LeBron should be nothing but lauded for having the type of success he did with those flawed rosters.

I don't think you understand my opinion at all. LeBron stans like to claim that LeBron "elevates" players (makes them better) while in the same breath claim that the teams suck once he leaves.

You can't have it both ways. If you "elevate" or make players better, then they will perform to at least an equal or higher capacity upon you leaving.

This didn't happen. So which one is it? I'm not knocking him for teams falling apart once he does leave. I actually do think this is to his credit. But I don't believe he has "elevated players" and made them better.

If so, tell me who? As I mentioned before, only Mario Chalmers comes to mind. You're mentioning him not diminishing Wade/Bosh amongst others, well did he elevate them? Did they become better players as a result of playing WITH him?

[1987_Lakers]

This is some fine revisionism. After Love's putrid showing in the 2018 playoffs, many blamed LeBron for it and expected him to shine in 2019 after LeBron's departure to LA. Except Love managed to attempt even more 3PA/G in 2019, his efficiency collapsed and his ppg went down. In other words, a worse offensive player in every way. So much for LeBron holding him back :rolleyes:. Literally anyone who actually watched Love in Cleveland could've foreseen him not amounting to anything post-LeBron. With his strength going down the toilet with weight loss, his already-limited athleticism further diminished with age and the game moving further and further away from the post up (something he could no longer do as it is), a big who can stretch the floor was by far Love's best and only positive offensive attribute. A creator who could put high volume numbers he simply wasn't and hadn't been for a long time. Only ignorant fools with their anti-LeBron agenda couldn't see this.



What an utterly ignorant opinion to hold. You are better than this.

There's literally not 1 All Star LeBron has ever diminished. Not 1. Any player's drop in volume can be explained by a major change in role - like Bosh/Love going from #1 options on perennial losers to #3 options on contenders. Both produced about as well as you could hope from a #3 option. Both posted their most efficient seasons next to LeBron too. The 2nd options - Wade/Kyrie/AD - produced as well as you could hope from a #2 option, with 2 of 'em even being ball dominant players. Wade/Kyrie/AD all managed to have at least 1 25+ ppg season next to LeBron. AD led the postseason in scoring for crying out loud. Burying the LeBron-can't-play-with-bigs myth for good. And again, all posted their most efficient seasons next to LeBron. Any talk of relegating-them-to-spot-up-status is absolute garbage. How the **** did they manage to produce such high volume seasons next to LeBron then. Must have been all that spotting up I saw Wade, Kyrie and AD doing :rolleyes:. Try to make sense sheesh. And lastly, it cannot be overstated what utter losers all of these guys were prior to joining LeBron (and post-LeBron). Literally no playoff success (assuming they even made it) to speak of.

And :oldlol: @ LeBron being held responsible for teams sucking after he leaves. What bizarre logic is this? :oldlol:. As if the teams he played for didn't generally have mediocre/poor coaching (Brown/Lue), limited talent (04-10 Cleveland), aging #2 option (Wade), one-dimensional, nutjob #2 option (Irving) or simply no talent (2018 Cavs). LeBron should be nothing but lauded for having the type of success he did with those flawed rosters.

Great post. If LeBron really did hold Love back, you would see much more teams actively pursuing him in a trade. GM's know Love doesn't give you much, just a stretch four who gives you solid rebounding but a liability on defense. He would be a great #3 option on a championship team, lottery if you have him as your #1 option.

[AirBonner]

It’s crazy how LeBrons 2nd option has no place in this league. LeBron won with that

[FireDavidKahn]

More distortions and cherry picking. Love didn't play in 2015. In 2016 they went 2-2 with him playing more than 20 minutes.

In 2017 and 2018, the Cavs went 1-8 against Golden State. In 2017 they had Kyrie and LeBron and still lost 4-1. The one game that they did win, Love did play more than 20 minutes.

In 2018, they got swept. 20 minutes or not was not the problem. So all this hype about Love and an arbitrary number of 20 minutes is meaningless. What's next, LeBron or Kyrie playing 20+ minutes and them losing 1-8 in 2017 and 2018 suddenly means something? They barely scraped by in 2016 in 7 games.

Not to mention, look at Love's playoff games (including the finals), year by year where he did play at least 20 minutes.

2015: 3-0
2016: 14-5
2017: 13-5
2018: 10-10

So through four years, Cleveland went 40-20 with Love on the court for 20+ minutes. And this includes two finals against a super-team in Golden State where they lost 1-8, which ultimately skews the numbers.

But cherrypick away!

...

It's for the Finals when, you know, it actually matter.

Love was completely irrelevant when it matters the most.

[Indian guy]

You can't have it both ways. If you "elevate" or make players better, then they will perform to at least an equal or higher capacity upon you leaving.

This is something I've literally never heard of in my life :D. The statement "making players better" is always mentioned in the context of maximizing their play while you are part of the team. More importantly, while sharing the court with them. Those things are no longer relevant when you are no longer part of the team.

[HoopsNY]

This is something I've literally never heard of in my life :D. The statement "making players better" is always mentioned in the context of maximizing their play while you are part of the team. More importantly, while sharing the court with them. Those things are no longer relevant when you are no longer part of the team.

You're not getting it. A lot of guys seem to decline playing with LeBron. Just look at the following players

Hughes

'05 WAS: 22/6/5 on 43%
'06 CLE: 15.5/4.5/4 on 41%
'07 CLE: 15/4/4 on 40%
'08 CLE: 12/4/2 on 38%

Jamison

'09 WAS: 21/9/1 on 45%
'10 CLE: 16/8/1 on 48%

Wade

'10 MIA: 27/5/7 on 48%
'11 MIA: 26/5/6 on 50%
'12 MIA: 22/5/5 on 50%
'13 MIA: 21/5/5 on 51%
'14 MIA: 19/5/5 on 54%

Bosh

'10 TOR: 24/11/3 on 52%
'11 MIA: 19/8/2 on 50%
'12 MIA: 18/8/2 on 49%
'13 MIA: 17/7/2 on 54%
'14 MIA: 16/7/1 on 52%

Love

'14 MIN: 26/13/4 on 46%
'15 CLE: 16/10/2 on 43%
'16 CLE: 16/10/2 on 42%
'17 CLE: 19/11/2 on 43%
'18 CLE: 18/9/2 on 46%

If the excuse is age and a decline as a result, then here are the players' ages the last season prior to joining LeBron:

Hughes: 26
Jamison (in season): 33
Wade: 28
Bosh: 25
Love: 25

The outlier here is Jamison but the rest were fairly young. We see a decline here and it seems to be steady. Even with a guy like Anthony Davis; why did his rebounding fall as much as it did? If the excuse is that he had another rebounder in LeBron to share rebounds with, then why did he average 10.4 rebounds and 11.9 rebounds per year alongside Cousins, who averaged around 12.5 rebounds a game playing with Davis?

The key might be in the theory that holds some weight. LeBron relegates teammates to jump shooting roles. I mean, look at Davis' three point FGA per season:

'18: 2.2 FGA
'19: 2.6 FGA
'20: 3.5 FGA

Shaq averaged 18/8 shooting 61% with Phoenix, and was an all-star the previous year prior to joining LeBron. He drops to 12/7 on 57% with Cleveland. If the argument is that he had a diminished role, then why did his FG% rise to 67% the very next season (with Boston)? The role doesn't make up for the difference.

So again, who is he "elevating" or maximizing their roles? Who is actually improving?

[FireDavidKahn]

I like this new argument by LeHaters.

Somehow, LeBron is literally able to permanently suck the talent out of people.

Please explain that process.

This is what LeHaters have been reduced to

[HoopsNY]

I like this new argument by LeHaters.

Somehow, LeBron is literally able to permanently suck the talent out of people.

Please explain that process.

This is what LeHaters have been reduced to

No. That's not my argument. I'm simply wondering where the theory comes from that he maximizes talent and elevates players, thus making them better.

It's well known that historically, LeBron's teammates do not do well with him off the court. The question is, why has it remained this way through the entire course of his 17 year career?

In addition, I don't believe any of his teams have ever been top 5 in assists. This is a pretty telling statistic when we look at a team's ability to spread the floor and pass the ball with or without him on the court. And it speaks volumes when we really dissect the topic of making players better.

[TheCorporation]

The fact that HoopsNY used Boston Celtics Shaq for ANY argument shows how retarded you (3ball) really are. Hop back on your 3ball account, you've been exposed.

[NBAGOAT]

No. That's not my argument. I'm simply wondering where the theory comes from that he maximizes talent and elevates players, thus making them better.

It's well known that historically, LeBron's teammates do not do well with him off the court. The question is, why has it remained this way through the entire course of his 17 year career?

In addition, I don't believe any of his teams have ever been top 5 in assists. This is a pretty telling statistic when we look at a team's ability to spread the floor and pass the ball with or without him on the court. And it speaks volumes when we really dissect the topic of making players better.

The point of impact is fkr your team to play much better because of you. Great players teams do much worse when they sit on the bench. Your argument is stupid and only brought up to counter brons impact metrics being the best ever(Jordan played most of his career when those stats don’t exist). Lebron teams don’t emphasize signing playmakers because he’s so good on his own.

When the majority talks about elevating teammates, it’s from making them better by being on the court not improving their games behind the scenes. The latter happens but is often speculative and often dismissive of how hard guys work on their own. Like I’m sure shai benefited learning from cp3 but it’s absurd to say he was the driving factor for shais development.

On another note, it was obvious Durant’s efficiency skyrocketed when curry was playing. It’s absolutely stupid to say durant being worse in bkn(ik Achilles injury but his jump shot % will get worse too) is somehow an indictment on curry but that’s basically what you’re arguing here.

Maximizing talent is a problem on every strong team even beyond playstyle issues. A team only takes so many shots a game and there are so many minutes to distribute, it’s called diminishing returns, look at what happened to Lou and Harrell in the playoffs this year even though kawhi and George should be a bit more portable than lebron. Their production was poor with diminished roles and minutes. Bird is the most portable star of all time yet I can argue mchale would score 25+ every year of prime on a weaker team. Bird wasn’t the one “diminishing” him obviously

Again this is the value of impact stats since they are more stable year to year even as roles change, better at measuring the true value of a player. if you’re going cite box score stats to say a guys been diminished then use per 100 at least to account for minutes

[FireDavidKahn]

No. That's not my argument. I'm simply wondering where the theory comes from that he maximizes talent and elevates players, thus making them better.

It's well known that historically, LeBron's teammates do not do well with him off the court. The question is, why has it remained this way through the entire course of his 17 year career?

In addition, I don't believe any of his teams have ever been top 5 in assists. This is a pretty telling statistic when we look at a team's ability to spread the floor and pass the ball with or without him on the court. And it speaks volumes when we really dissect the topic of making players better.

It's almost as if when players getting to chuck as much as they want on bad teams will have "worse" stats when they join an elite team and have to play team ball.

Weird.